430 - Integrating the 3 Most Critical Tools for a Betrayed Spouse ASAP

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Listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 430, and here joining me as my co host throughout this series is Mrs. Ashley Jameson. Ashley, good to see you again.

Glad to be here as always.

Yeah, you've actually been on some vacation in the magic world of recording. You know, we, we didn't do these sequentially, but you've had some time away getting rested and renewed, and you're probably ready for some time away from your kids. If your vacations or anything like mine.

Like this is strangely familiar to my everyday life. Being with my kids 24 7. Yeah, just more Sandy. Yes, it was good. Always good to be back and having my one day of work that this week be recording podcasts is. Is fun. I love podcasts and I think this is a great series.

So, yes, it's, it's a highlight for us and we love the way that we can encourage others. And I think that's what this series has been all about, is recognizing that when we are early in recovery, we need guidance, we need support, and we really have tried to focus on that in the series the first 60 days after discovery, giving both the betrayed spouse and the struggling spouse tips, ideas, tools of what to do to move to recovery. And today we talked with one of our clinicians, Eileen Fagan, about how to integrate three critical tools for the betrayed spouse asap. So tell us a little bit about what listeners can expect to get from Eileen today.

I think you're gonna get some validation for the struggling spouse. They may gain some understanding of what, you know, their betrayed spouse might be experiencing in that 60 days after discovery or disclosure. I know for John and I, it took us a few years to understand that a betrayal like this, a sexual betrayal, is very devastating, not just to the relationship, but also to the mind and body of the spouse. And so I think Eileen gives us some just basic foundational information of what happens and some really practical tools. And I always appreciate that Eileen is very much a truth teller. She just says things the way they should be. And, and I'm really glad to have her on here. She's super sharp and she'll give some good advice today.

And if you are listening to this and you're in those first months of recovery, we are so grateful you've joined us. We hope that you are encouraged, that you. You re. You recognize that you're not alone and we, in some ways, as hosts, are envious of you because we did not have much of this advice or tools early on. And so we're so grateful that we can provide this means by which you might be able to get some traction in ways that we wish we could have had early in our recovery. And we're glad you're here. We're glad you're tuning in. And if you're a regular listener that you're. You're well into recovery, I think this may still give you ideas to implement. If, if you hit a challenge or a difficulty in your relationship, or if you're looking to encourage others, either through a group or you're. You're leading others or someone comes to you for advice, this may really give you some direction, particularly for that betrayed spouse that's saying, I just caught, you know, my husband doing whatever, or this was on his phone. What do I do? I think this episode's gonna give you a ton of good direction, how you might be a part of helping someone get traction in those early days. So a bit about Eileen Fagan. She is one of our clinicians here at Pure Desire and is a licensed professional counselor. She's been a part of the team here since 2019. She enjoys listening to people's stories and helping them connect the dots between their life experiences, feelings, thoughts, and actions. She works primarily with clients who have experienced trauma. And since trauma affects the whole person, spirit, body, mind, will, and soul and emotions, Eileen provides a holistic approach to treatment and care. And so here now is our episode with Eileen Fagan, integrating the three most critical tools for a betrayed spouse asap. Eileen Fagan, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. It's so good to have you on again.

Hey, it's good to be here.

Yeah. Unfortunately, we don't get to have all of our Pure Desire staff on, but for the staff that we do bring on, I think it's always a fun conversation. And I love getting to hear the perspective from our clinical team and the fact that you and your husband do a lot of the work together. I think you bring a wealth of experience to today's topic, and I'm really looking forward to hearing from you on this because this, I think, is a crucial place when a spouse has walked through discovery or disclosure. They're in the midst of all these questions, and we're going to try to equip them with some tools in this early stage of their healing.

Yes, yes. Very needed, very important topic.

So, Eileen, when we talk about there being three critical tools that Every betrayed spouse needs to integrate quickly. What are they and why do you think these specific tools are so critical in the early days post discovery?

Yeah, the tools I'm going to talk about are really tools that we wouldn't normally think about. I mean the first thing people think about, I think when talking about after discovery is what do I do about my spouse? And, and really the, the focus needs to be on what's going on in me, with me and how can I take care of me. So the three tools, and I didn't do this on purpose, but they all start with an S that's perfect safety, self regulation and support. So and I, I guess that makes it easier to remember if you think about the three S's, but those are all self focused, which is a good thing when it comes to post discovery.

So talk a little bit about each one of those. When you say, I mean those are categories for some people. When you say those words for a betrayed spouse, what do you mean for, for those three tools?

Yeah, so for safety. And none of these are, it's not a particular order. There is an order of operations that I talk about a lot for healing trauma and people have heard me talk about that all the time. Order of operations, order of operations with safety, self regulation and support. These are going to be woven, interwoven at times. You're going to focus more, especially at the beginning on safety. And when we talk about safety, I'm not just talking about physical safety, I'm talking, although that's part of it. I'm also talking about emotional safety, mental health, safety, what's going on in the immediate, what might need to change in your immediate environment for you to feel like you're back in your body, for example, that you're making wise choices, that you are physically safe. So that's, I'm just giving you an overview of that one. Self regulation has to do with what I said earlier. Taking back control of your body. What's your heart doing, what's your stomach doing? How do you feel foggy. So how to get control back of your body, of your physical, those, those trauma responses, that, that limbic reactivity. And so that's just an overview of that one. And support, support could be groups, support could be counseling, support could be a friend network. So that's kind of a quick overview of all three of those.

I like those being the initial strategies. Now I keep hearing all these S's, you know, and how you emphasize that it's for our, that that could be a little bit, that could Catch somebody off guard, like, okay, my spouse is doing these things that's totally rocked our world and turned it upside down. And now the tools you're saying to initially use are about myself. That can feel a little confusing for betrayed spouse. But we know you, myself and Nick, we know that that is ultimately all you can do is control yourself. And so having that initial thing be something that we can control is so important because it offers hope when we know there are options and we can. We have something we can do that's not just begging or pleading or trying to get somebody to understand. I mean, that can feel very disheartening. Especially if the. The caught spouse is not remorseful. They automatically start blame shifting or denying or gaslighting. That can make you feel so. Just discouraged. And so I love this. And just in all of the chaos after discovery or another relapse or whatever's going on, to just bring it back to these simple things of like let me ground myself and help myself feel safe, insane and all the things that need to happen. And then from there, hopefully that support network will build a walk alongside that spouse and. And help them figure out the next steps. But those are great things to remember. I think they need to be written on a card like to pull out of your purse. You know, if you go into crisis mode again of this is all I have to. I don't have to figure out my whole world right now. I just need to start here.

Maybe we need to make a little printable.

Yeah.

Card on there for that.

Yeah. It keeps spouses from that trap of making the goal of recovery their spouse. Stopping their behavior.

Right.

Because we want them to stop the behavior. We want them to change. But in some situations, they may choose not to. They may not be yet capable of it. There might be continued behavior that takes place. And if the goal or focus of recovery is on someone else, it really keeps the. There's. There's no safety in that because I'm kind of then at the whims of what someone else chooses to do. And what I hear you saying, Eileen, is that when there's discovery, when this is now evident of what's happening within the marriage, there is the question of what am I going to need as the spouse to navigate this regardless of what they do and Lord willing, hopefully they do choose recovery. Hopefully they are leaning into their own process. But even if they're not, the things you've said are true. I'm going to need to find places of emotional and physical safety. I'm going to need to know how to self regulate and make sure that I'm. That I'm eating and sleeping and doing the things I need to function as a human being. Because that's going to increase the likelihood anyway that I can engage in meaningful recovery with my spouse if they're doing that. And being able to have support will be an ongoing need again, whether or not my spouse engages in their recovery process. So I think putting that focus on what can I do, controlling what I can control, and then in some regard, you know, having that healthy boundary that what my spouse chooses to do is kind of their choice. And the best thing I can do to create perhaps a pathway towards the marriage or restoration of my spouse is leaning into my work and to my needs, because it helps me find a place where I'm more stable and more able to make good decisions about my own future and about the relationship.

You used the word control. And unfortunately, the tendency is to try to control others because insecurity, when we're insecure in our relationship, especially after discovery, it will always manifest as control. And the first inclination is what can I do about them? And that can become a coping behavior to where we feel more comfortable for trying to control others. So this is kind of a gentle turn of that control. And what helps me is when I. When I'm distressed, I picture Jesus right in front of me and he's looking at me and he's saying, this is awful. Let's take care of you. And that really helps ground me because it's not focused on anybody else. He's looking at me. Yeah. And he is. He always is. That helps me a lot. So turning that control to what can I do? What can I do for me? How can I care for me? And the words that Bill and I use all the time is kindness and curiosity. How can I be curious about what's going on in my own body and how can I be kind to myself?

Yeah, I was thinking the same too. When your life turns upside down, you are going to react no matter what you're going to. You're going to search for safety no matter what. So, you know, like, just like you said, Eileen, just being more intentional with how we do that and is it actually going to be helpful for us is so good. And that leads perfectly into our next question. So in those first 60 days, everything feels overwhelming. What does integration of these tool realistically look like in the middle of trauma, especially when survival mode is running the show.

Yeah, yeah. And survival sometimes that what I was talking about with control is looking at others. So the first thing I think to look at is safety. Let's get you into a place where you can feel safe in your own home, in your own skin. So in those first 60 days, you might have to determine, where do I need to sleep at night? What kind of boundaries do I need to set? I know boundaries can be a scary word, especially if there's some codependency going on or where we just feel like if I leave, they'll relapse. But again, we're changing the focus. And sometimes that means asking the struggling spouse to leave the home for a day or two or longer. Sometimes it means a therapeutic separation. Sometimes it just means a separate room. So determining what your needs are immediately is probably one of the most important thing in that first 60 days. And again, all of these things that I mentioned, they work together and they work at the same time. When you're working on safety, what is your body doing? So really paying attention to your body? What does my head feel like? Notice my stomach just feels like it dropped. I'm feeling a little foggy. You know, understanding how your. How your limbic system is trying to protect you and then working with that to get. Get yourself back online, I think that's probably those first 60 days, those are the most important things. So that you're making wise choices and you're not. You're not making this. You're not working out of your subjective brain, your. Your trauma brain.

And it's important to note, I think, even within the question, as we say, you know, if you feel like you're in survival mode, to say to that betrayed and hurting spouse, that's normal. That is normal behavior for your brain to feel like, I don't know how to cope with this. I maybe experience a shattering of things I believe to be true, or I'm uncovering all these lies. And your brain kind of going into survival mode is what we're kind of programmed by God, even in the design of our brain to do. And that's why we have to consider what are my needs? So that survival mode isn't just shutting down. And if we've got kids, not caring for them, if we've got a job, not showing up for that, it's finding a way to create enough stability that then we can begin to create a plan around our needs. What are those boundaries with our spouse and I, I think what we hear is, is as couples come and there's maybe not any thought of what that betrayed spouse needs. And all the focus is on, you know, Stopping the behavior is. There's. There's just a lot of irrational thinking that goes on. There's a lot of. Kind of all or none, black and white, like, you know, well, you need to quit your job and we need to move, and you're never going to do that again. And we're throwing out all the tea and. And some of that's just that survival mode reaction of how do we be safe again for. For them to not do it anymore when I think it's more helpful for that betrayed spouse. What do I need to have emotional safety, relational safety with this person so that I can do the work? Or consider if trust can be rebuilt? And looking at that, so that you just acknowledge, hey, survival mode's probably what my brain's gonna do. And if I'm going into that, what are some habits or things I can focus on to move through that pain with as much stability as possible and not end up going off the rails or in places that we really regret and become difficult to come back from.

Exactly. And some people might not know. They might not know what to do next. And for some people, they'll have a delayed response. They may feel fine in the moment, and then two days later, they might notice that limbic response. So there really is not a one size fits all. So it really is. It pays. It makes sense to pay attention to what's going on for you and focus on what your needs are. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And I know that we, you know, we are always emphasizing group and counseling, but this is, again, why it's so important that one of your first things that you do is to, you know, reach out to your support people. Because, like, just like you said, Eileen, I've experienced that. I've experienced all the things in. In every, you know, situation I've been in where there's been a relapse or betrayal. It's like, I've had the big reaction, I've had the shutdown one. I've had the, oh, I'm fine. And then three days later, it hits me. And so there is no one size fit fits all. And if you're on a long road, which a lot of our couples that we work with are, and there's been more than one relapse, it could look totally different the second time than the first time. And so having just that, okay, ground zero. Here we are. What do I need? And having that support is so important because sometimes you do have to filter through things through a trusted person to try to get to what you're actually feeling and what you're actually needing. So then you can go have a coherent conversation with your spouse and say, this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm needing versus like verbally processing and getting all confused and then creating more conflict. And then other times you may just need to not say anything and just sit with it and, and wait and figure out what you need. I mean, I've had all those experiences too. And, and so a lot of times for me, my first thing is just either to reach out to my support people or they just know because if I go silent and start turning in on myself, they're like, what's going on? Where are you? What are you doing? And that's kind of what I do when I get overwhelmed is I just want to like turn, turn in and like go numb and not say anything and just keep powering through my day until I hit a breaking point. And, and so having those people on hand already that like notice those things with you is also a good. Has been a lifesaver for me.

Yeah, what you're, it sounds like what you're describing is the waves, you know, come in waves. And learning to surf is, is something that we have to learn to do is learning to surf, to ride those waves. Sometimes you're going to be standing up and you're going to riding coast pretty well. Some other times you're going to be waiting and, and, and watching and, and preparing. So with support you can have somebody that, that is, it has been through on those waves, has experienced on the board, they can ride. I get on with me, I can't do it. But they can ride those with you. That's been there. Yeah, for sure.

So, Eileen, we know that this can be a challenging season, obviously in someone's life and marriage. What do you think are some ways that we maybe misunderstand or get it wrong when it comes to a spouse's immediate needs after discovery? And how could this approach reorient someone towards safety instead?

Well, like we mentioned, I think that that idea of turning toward yourself with kindness and curiosity, there's this, unfortunately, I think it's more in the church community. There's this idea that self care is selfish, but it's really not. And Jesus took care of his own needs. He went to a quiet place and retreated. So he was, you know, he ate, he did all the things. So I think it's really important to first of all give yourself permission to need to take a day off work, to eat the chocolate chip cookie, to take a walk. When you need a walk, to let the dishes stay in the sink, to meet with a friend, if that's the most important thing. Again, that kind curiosity, treating yourself the way you might treat a friend. And I think a lot of times people think they have to power through. Sometimes those are family of origin rules or things that we're taught to believe that you have to suck it up, you have to just deal with it. You have to put your big girl pants on and move on. And so to, to be able to treat yourself gently is, is going to go a long way in your recovery. And the other thing I was thinking too was that oftentimes we'll, we'll be doing these things where we're, we're learning how to pay attention to our body, we're breathing, we're, we're, we're getting the help, we're getting the support. And then a relapse happens. And oftentimes that relapse, that betrayal is worse than the first because all of a sudden any trust that was built is now gone. And so understanding and normalizing, I think that's the word you use, Nick, is normalizing that it's okay if you're doing all right and then you're not. That you going back to square one, going back to safety, going back to getting that support, that it's okay. It doesn't mean you did anything wrong. It means that you had another betrayal. And it means that trust is going to need to be rebuilt. And the onus of responsibility is not on you, it's on the struggling spouse.

Yeah. And you said, you know, trust will be broke, is broken if there's another relapse. And I've heard spouses say they really can lose hope at that point because it's like, well, we had all the, we, we, we've done everything and we've been doing everything and we, we know all the things now. So how are we here again? And then the hope can be just destroyed at that point. And again, as people who do this every day and help people, just to say that there, if you're in that season, there is hope. And unfortunately, relapse, you know, down the road has been part of our story. But fortunately, those relapses after some healing and some distance were so revealing and eye opening to discover deeper family of origin roots that were still there and still kind of dictating behaviors under the surface. And, and having that space in being, you know, in recovery, just gave us clearer eyes to see some of those things. And so I feel like in those instances, it still brought us a deeper level to be able to, to get to places maybe that we wouldn't have. But it's just an unfortunate thing that nobody wants. We don't want second relapses or third relapses. But all the more reason to have those plans in place because it can be devastating. And when you just can say, I'm not going to think about it, I'm not going to try to solve my whole life right now. I'm just going to get my tools out and do what I need to do, it can be a saving grace in that moment.

Absolutely, absolutely. And, and that, that's the part of support that plan is what you're talking about. Because you're not going to be able to know what to do in the moment.

No.

So having it all written out is, is taking good care of yourself. Yeah. It's. It's not a list of. Or jumping through hoops as I've heard a lot. Sometimes we hear that from the struggling spouse. You just want me to jump through all these hoops? Yes, you need to jump through the hoops. The reason you need to jump through the hoops is because you have broken our trust. And so we need to, we. You need to jump through the hoops. But it's really, it really is for safety. It's a safety plan. And so that's the part of support that we need to have ready. And our safety plan is also a fluid document. Relapse is going to look different in a year than it will be right after discovery. Relapse could be different. It might not be sexually acting out, it might be angry outbursts and in that case you need to have a plan for that. So we're always, we're always looking at safety and what is making you feel unsafe now as opposed to a year ago. So always monitoring that.

You know when you say to just take care of yourself and that self care is not selfish, it makes me think of, you know, before I worked for Pure Desire and was a stay at home mom, I worked in the medical field and just sometimes there'd be like medically induced comas to let the body heal from the trauma. It's just like sit and do not move and rest and actually we're going to do this too on purpose so you can just lay there and let your body heal. Kind of reminds me of that, like put the things in place to get yourself back to where you can even then move forward with the physical therapy and the recovery. But right now your job is to just rest and heal.

Right? Why is that okay with the physical body, but it is right emotional?

Yeah. You're both speaking to the reality that this is a process and we talk about it a lot, that healing takes time. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And that may be one of the most common misconceptions that we have around this area, is that feeling of you need, you need to get over it, you need to forgive, you need to move on, you need to just, you know, kind of hurry and make things better. And there may be something in our personalities or maybe our family of origins or even our church culture that kind of does that. It wants to maintain the status quo and keep equilibrium and we're all okay and okay, you had a little hiccup, but you know, deal with it, get over it. Let's just all get back to being fine. When there is this reality that this is a long road and that that doesn't mean that everybody needs to know the journey you're on, but at a personal level and with people close to you, a group, hopefully that you're getting involved with that understanding that this is going to be a process and a journey that I'm walking in, that can give us sometimes the patience for ourselves, as you said, Eileen, the compassion to be kind to ourselves and implement some of these tools that really are more about this long term journey and not focused on, well, let's just fix it and get over with it and move on. Because so often we've seen couples do that for years where they're just trying to move on and by the time they're finally really facing it, there's been so much pain and water under the bridge and so much to deal with that. Had they given themselves permission earlier on to say, this is a big deal and we're going to let it matter and we're going to take the time it needs to really heal well and not just try to fix it quick that would make a world of difference. I think if we can face that misunderstanding and allow it to be a process, then these tools really make a lot of sense.

Absolutely. Forgiveness and access are two different things. Just because we forgive somebody and we're releasing them to Jesus control doesn't mean they're a safe person to be around. So yes, we can forgive, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have boundaries to, to feel safe or we can't function, we can't, we can't be the best us.

Yeah, I spent a Whole week with my children this week. So I automatically went to, like, just because I forgave you for playing catch with my grandma's china does not mean I'm gonna let you play catch. Like, I was just like that. Forgiveness, access. It's just so, like you just said about the physical and the spirit or the physical and emotional. There are some things where it's. It's so. It's black and white, like how we forgive our children or. But we say, but also, you can't do this anymore. But we can't do that with our spouse. Or else. It feels controlling. It feels like we're not being submissive. It feels all the things that maybe we've heard that have been really damaging.

Yeah. You're talking about consequences. And it's not. We talk about this in Bill and I with, in counseling, that this is not a punishment, it's a consequence. You chose this based on the behavior that you. That you decided to participate in or whatever the offense was, that it's a. It's a consequence. And, and just like with kids, it's like, no, you. You picked this. You chose to play with grandma's china.

Yeah. This is the outcome of your behavior, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even if there's been forgiveness and some reparation, there is still an outcome of your behavior that might mean an adjustment in relationships or what we allow or permit. And, and to see that. That. That logical or necessary outcome might feel limiting, but for that betrayed spouse might also be what they need to pursue that safety.

Right. Nobody's going to like your boundaries at first. Nobody's going to like your safety plan. I shouldn't say nobody, but especially the struggling spouse, they may not like it, but when they see the effect that it has and that you're a calmer, you're a. A stronger person, and that then it's like what the Bible says, that the, The. That the spouse, the unbelieving spouse, can be won over without a word when he sees his wife's behavior. And so it's kind of the same idea when he sees the benefits of the boundaries and how. How it's really benefiting him as well. Then they start to see the fruit of it all.

Right, Eileen, can you walk us through how a betrayed partner might use these tools to regulate emotionally when the pain is still raw and fresh?

Yeah. Again, first thing I think is safety. Do you. What do you need to be able to get through the day? The hour, sometimes the minute and self. Regulation is not something that comes naturally to people. So this is something you might need to get help with. How am I going to take care of my body? Because sometimes the overreaction or the under reaction that we're having, and by under reaction, I mean the shutdown mode, the turtling, the numb, we might need to get help with that. So how to use those tools, usually that means get along, at least initially. I'm not talking about isolating, I'm talking about solitude. What do you need in the moment? Just to be able to get your thoughts, collect your thoughts, breathe, get your heart rate down, whatever it is, and be able to think about what your next move is. What's your next step going to be? And having a list. So in facing heartbreak, we have what's called a shield of safety. And so all of those things are. So they all stand for different. It's an acronym, safe. There's, you know, your SAFE people, affirmations, friends. So having a, having a support network, people that you can call on the ready. Hopefully that's group members. Hopefully you're in a group. If not, that might be a part of it. Counseling. Again, it's not because you did anything wrong. It's because of what happened to you. So getting somebody on board, maybe it means that we need somebody special that specializes in this. So. So regulating emotionally usually starts with. I mean, I'm jumping back, but getting alone and figuring out what your next move is getting. And by getting alone, I, I mean facing Jesus again. Being, being with him. Trying to ground. Grounding is a big deal. So we talk a lot about grounding initially when we're working, when I'm working with betrayed spouses, because there's this sense of that life is happening around me and I am not able to participate in it. So grounding is that idea of looking at your five senses and implementing. I usually say five things. So look around the room. Five things you can see feet on the floor, by the way, when you're doing that, five things you can see, five things you can hear, taste, touch, smell. Getting back in your body is what that's about. And then once you're back in your body, sometimes that's just enough to be able to say, okay, what do I need to access now? What are the tools I need to access? Because this is a devastating thing. Your, your one flesh partner has, has, has betrayed you. You're feeling unsafe. So it's a big deal. And it's tempting to minimize. I think I'm getting into another question, but it's tempting to minimize. And we, we need to look at it as a big deal.

Yeah, well, I just want to go back and affirm what you said earlier. Sometimes and almost always that need for physical distance from your spouse is there. And sometimes couples fear that because they feel like, well, I've got to be right there, we've got to walk through this together or you know, I need to see what they're doing or, or they're not giving me that space because they want to know that, you know, we're okay or how am I feeling? And a spouse who's been betrayed needs that freedom to say, I need to do some processing without you. And that may mean that we set up some parameters of where we both feel safe of not being around you. Like where can you go? Or where can I go that we're not Just so you know, because in physical distance, if you're the betrayed spouse and you're spending that whole time wondering what they're doing, who are they with, what are they seeing? Well, you're not going to be able to get grounded, you're not going to be able to implement these tools. But if, you know, like, okay, they're, they've gone to their parents house or their friend's house or they're at work and so while they're at work, I'm able to do this, or they're with our kids and they've agreed to take our kids to these activities. Now I have that space. So you might need to plan out. Like, how can there be that physical space so that I can do this work? But it's so necessary. And if you're right there with your spouse doing all this, you're not going to be attentive to your needs and to being grounded and understanding what you need to process because it will tend to just be about then the addict and their behavior and managing behavior. And it might feel safer that way. Of like, well, at least I'm right there, I can see what they're doing. It's not going to lead to the kind of recovery or long term stability you're looking for. So with some structure, with some parameters, figure out a way to get the physical distance you need. And that might just be an afternoon for some, for others it may be a period of days. But it's having an understanding of what you may need and then creating that safe parameters in which that can happen.

Sometimes I'll tell the betrayed spouses I work with, do you feel connected with them when you're close by, when they feel like they need to control? Do you feel connected with them. And 99% of the time, the answer is no. If you don't feel connected when you're there, it's not gonna. It's not gonna. You're not gonna feel more connected as you stay there. So take care of yourself.

Yeah. Because you can't help but to be thinking, well, what did that mean? What are they thinking about? You know, like, it. You do need that space. And when you said, oh, people aren't gonna like your boundaries. I don't like my boundaries. Because if you had. If you've had a long history of wanting to keep peace, or maybe this is brand new to you and it's completely foreign, and now you've got this push, pull between the person that you go to for everything, the person you process life with, the person you celebrate things with, has now hurt you. You're going to want to be with that person at the same time as not wanting to be with that person. You're going to want things to feel normal. You're going to want the. The quickest resolution to feeling normal again. And for me, that sometimes meant not holding up my boundaries because it was hard. And that period of waiting and watching your spouse honor your boundaries, honor your marriage, do the work for recovery, when you're just watching and, you know, at this point, it's going to take time. That can be really, really hard for a betrayed spouse. You know, we didn't ask for this, and I don't want to sit here and watch for several months to see if things change. And so you. You might have the tendency to say, oh, never mind, we don't have to do that, even though, you know it'll be good for you because you don't like it, you know, and so I know, for me, having a plan written out is not only good for John, but it's good for me to make sure that I don't try to rush a process that shouldn't be rushed, that I stick to it. And then the grounding thing you were talking about, I remember coming in to all of this like, you're a counselor, so you probably have a different idea. But for me, when it clicked, oh, this spiritual world and the world I was from, the medical world, are one in the same. Like, that was a moment for me before I had it. So separated and thinking, oh, this. Positive thoughts. Positive thinking is just a bunch of hippie diplomats mumbo jumbo. And then I did start to realize, oh, your thoughts actually do take up physical space in your brain, and they do either send out good Chemicals or bad chemicals. And the kicker for me was when I brought my. My son, who struggles with sensory issues, to a neurofeedback clinic. And the guy wanted me to try the. The electrodes on my head just to show me how it worked. And he was like. And he had, you know, the pull socks thing on my fingers. And he said, okay, think of when you're at mo, like, what do you do in your life that brings you so much peace? And I imagine I was on a kayak on a sunny lake, and you could see, like, the wavelengths of my heart rate or whatever brain, you know, because he had it all over my brain, my scalp. They were just like, kind of like very subtle rolling hills. And then he said, what stresses you out? Put yourself back in that moment and think about it. And I did that. And all of a sudden the rolling hills turned to, like, these jagged spikes, you know, And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And so it was like, okay, I'm a believer. Positive thinking, happy thoughts, you know, like, not to spiritually bypass or anything like that, but just to know the power of what your brain can do and to protect that at all costs. That you need to protect your mind. You need to protect your heart and your body.

Yes. And sometimes that means movement. Yeah, Sometimes that means doing something. It's like James talking about faith without works. We can say. We can sit and say, I'm safe when we're in a place that's unsafe, and that's not necessarily going to be true. So sometimes we have to put feet to our faith and say, if I'm believing that this marriage is going to get better, I'm going to do what I need to do to take care of me. And what. What I believe is going to help our relations, relationship by faith. And so sometimes that means doing something because if. If just thinking, okay, well, it'll get better. He'll. He'll change. He'll do without boundaries. It's not going to work. Sometimes we have to. We have to have those action steps, and we have to take care of ourselves.

So, Eileen, you've worked with many women who are navigating betrayal trauma, and you've likely seen barriers or things that keep them from taking some of these steps. So what. What would be some of those barriers? And how could someone gently move past maybe those blocks that have been in their way?

Yeah, I would say probably one of the biggest barriers that we see is. Is the. The fear of being out of their spouse's presence, that they'll. They'll just binge if they leave, or that things will just go all wrong or, or their spouse won't want to be with them anymore if they, if they leave that they'll, the spouse, the struggling spouse will leave. So this idea that they have to sit and, and, and they have to be there and they have to pay attention like, like, like a guard, like on guard. So I think that's probably one of the biggest, biggest barriers is that idea that they have to continue to do what they've been doing. It's like that definition of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting things to change. And so sometimes it takes a while. And this is again where support comes in. We have to talk to other people because sometimes we're not thinking right. We're thinking either old family of origin messages, usually that's it. Because those things are hardwired into our brain that we need to get outside perspectives on. Because sometimes our perspective can be clouded by the trauma.

You know, I was thinking one of the barriers I've seen is when spouses are blaming themselves. And this can happen for women, it can happen for men if the, if the wife has been cheating or done something in sexual, compulsive sexual behavior. When they feel like, well, if only I did more, whatever, or had done this or that and that focus. You know, we've talked about self care, but it can almost be like a twisted kind of self care of like, well, if I'm just a better version of myself, then they won't do those things. And again, it's, it's really trying to put the control of the relationship in the wrong place. That thinking I can somehow be enough of a person in whatever way that then my spouse won't do these things. And that's an area where we have to work with someone early on to say, you cannot control their behavior and their choices are not about you, even if they've told you they are, because that's wrong and it's not your fault. And so to start there by saying if all my motive is how to improve myself so they won't do this, you're going down a road that has no successful outcome. Because we've seen it so often that you can have the greatest marriage in the world and be doing everything right and a spouse can be making sexually addictive choices. So to release yourself of that burden and instead say, how do I be a better version of me for me and for God and not for other people, or not for my spouse, but to be a better version for me that actually will long term have the greatest impact on all your relationships. And so I think to just pay attention to that if you're putting blame on yourself and thinking if, if you're only better than they won't do whatever that, that barrier needs to be addressed and hopefully let go of so that you can pursue health in a better way.

Oh, yeah, yeah. The gaslighting in the form of blame. And this is where curiosity comes in. What, what is that? Where did that come from? Where, how, how did you become so powerful that if you were just better, your. Your spouse wouldn't act out? There's, there's something to that. So there's being curious about why do I believe that? And I think that's really important. I'm glad you brought that up because gaslighting is very insidious and it can just be very subtle little blame things if you would just dress more provocatively sometimes, if you would just lose or gain 10 pounds. And we start to believe that the burden of responsibility is on us to change. And so we need to start to question those things. And sometimes that takes support and other voices.

Yeah, I caught myself early on, you know, with, with the idea of, you know, having a break sexually after relapse and me struggling with those feelings of, okay, there's a lot of fear here as the betrayed spouse and we're not going to be connected. And then I'm like, wait, wait, wait a minute. Like, sex is supposed to be an overflow of the intimate connection that's already there, the trust that's already there. And so that really, you know, shined a light on my broken thinking around it, even though I would never have thought I had, you know, broken thinking around that. And so I had to grow and have support to say, this is not what dictates a healthy marriage. How often we're having sex or anything like that. That's not what shows a healthy marriage. And, and to continue to put my mind in the long game and to trust the process and who have been there before, because we have wonderful men and women who have been there before who have found the road out, who know all the nuances of this devastating situation that so many are facing. And for me, I just had to find those people in my betrayal and beyond groups. And, you know, luckily for me, I work on staff here at Pure Desire, so some of my co workers and just say, I need to trust the process. Like, I can't see the end right now, but I'm going to borrow some hope right now because there's people who have been there that they do this every day. And my brain is traumatized right now, so I'm just going to continue to trust the process. When you don't have hope, it's okay to say, but this person that I love and who has always been there and who always has given me good advice or knows the way out, she has hope, and that's good enough for me right now. I'm gonna borrow that.

Yes. Yeah. Isn't it funny how trust the process can be both annoying and helpful at the same time?

Yes, it is annoying and helpful at the same time. Dang it.

I know all those little phrases, but. But they're important. It's important to remember.

Yes, they are. Okay, so is there a right order or priority of implementing these tools, or is it just more about layering them as the person is able?

Yeah, I like that word layering, because you're going to implement them as the waves come. So with every wave, safety might be the first thing. Yeah. Be a therapeutic separation. It could be a couple of nights in another room. It could be a staycation, whatever it is. Or it could be, all right, I need to do my grounding, I need to do my. My biblical meditation. Or it could be I need to call a friend or I need to go to an extra group. It could be lots of things. So writing those ways as they come is going to be important. But again, paying attention to what's going on in your body, God gave you a warning system. It's like. Like the ring doorbell for your body. So we have a ring doorbell. And anytime anybody walks by with their dog, you know, big alert, like, you know, like DEFCON 5. So. But. But your body is. Is letting you know something doesn't feel right. So. So just paying attention to that so you can implement something before the wave gets too high. You can implement a plan, a tool, and having these in writing, having them on your phone when. When you're not thinking straight, when you're a little bit foggy, will be super helpful. What are the things that helped when this relapse happened? Or what was the thing that helped when my spouse said this? What was the thing that helped when he ignored my bed for connection? So having almost like a trauma diary where you can write down these things about, this is what I did when this happened can be really helpful because then you're tailoring the intervention to the wave.

Yeah. What comes to mind for me is that need to be flexible. As the betrayed spouse, you have needs that might change day to day or week to week. And if there are certain boundaries or things you put in place that you're in a season or a day, you're like, I don't need those today. I don't need physical separation or I don't need that. Don't do something out of obligation, but also be flexible with yourself and vice versa. Maybe you need more than you anticipated, and so to not shame yourself. If I need more time than I thought I was going to need, or I need more support than I thought I was going to need, I need more time for self regulation. And expressing that, I think, to your spouse is key and to others around you that you're going to create a plan and you might need to keep adjusting it as you go. Now, I would say don't compromise your boundaries because your spouse or someone else is pressuring you to. That's. That's the opposite of what I'm saying. But I do think you need to feel empowered to have some flexibility with your own boundaries and to say, you know, and I've seen that in my own marriage where my wife and her journey. Early on, you were certain things. She's like, you know what? I know initially we set that up, but I don't need that anymore because I'm seeing these other things you're doing or there's other ways our relationship has changed, and that particular boundary or need is very different now. And having that freedom for you to make those calls or again, to ask for more than you thought you'd need is completely appropriate. So, yes, trust the process. Yes, have a plan. Yes, put it in writing. But if you need to flex because of where you're at emotionally on that day, because the waves are out and you're feeling good, adjust accordingly. And then if it's a day where the waves feel like they're crashing in and you're overwhelmed and you need more than was in your plan, adjust accordingly and give yourself grace for that.

I was thinking, gosh, I was just thinking of the few tools that you've gone over and like, when have I layered those? And yeah, there's been times where I'm like, nope, I am standing for sanity right now. I'm not getting sucked into this. And I, you know, stand my ground on being sane and not getting pulled back into the deceptive trap. And then, you know, a few days later, I'm like, okay, I need ice cream. And I need, like, it's just. It is really just have the. Have the bag of tools. And even, like Nick said, you don't want to pull out your safety action plan after a relapse and say, you know, I don't think I need all these. Or because you, you have to remember that you are in that mindset of feeling betrayed again. And so if you can't make those changes with your spouse, like outside of a conflict time, then have that trusted person to say, I'm not sure I really need this one right now or want this one right now. I don't know that it would be helpful. And just have somebody else to process through if you don't need it, because the last thing you want to do is feel like you're. You're just following this list of rules that you created for yourself when it might not be helpful. You know, one of the relapses that I experienced, it was like, I don't want to take extra groups right now or counseling. I need sunshine and nature, something to just regulate myself again. And I don't think I would have put language to it like you've been able to today on the podcast. But that's, that's what I was searching for. It was like, I feel so dysregulated. I don't even think I can take in any more information right now. I just need like solitude right now and some solace in just me and God. Then I'll take those next steps.

Yes, yes. And, and just being okay with that. Yeah, okay with it. I can remember one time Bill had something happened. I don't remember what the disconnection was. It doesn't matter. But it was a disconnection. And I was so upset. But what I said was almost like a self care because what I said, and you know, the difference of height between Bill and I, so I. And I had no shoes on, which made it worse. And he did. So I'm looking up at him, I'm saying, because he was saying I was being unreasonable. And I looked up at him, I said, if I'm being unreasonable, it's because you made me this way and if I'm unreasonable, it's your fault. But there was something kind of empowering about that for me because it was really hard for me to say what I needed. And so for me to be able to look up at him, and I felt very childlike because again, I had no shoes on. And I'm looking up at him just to be able to say, say, I need to get out of here. I need to take care of myself. And yeah, I said I blamed him. But the point was I felt Kind of empowered in that moment. And it was, it was actually really helpful to be able to actually say what was going on in me and to say what was true for me and say, I need to not be in the same room with you right now and be able to walk away was empowering. And it gets easier. Yeah.

And, and that's a reality of this journey. Right. That it's very emotional, and people are going to say things in the moment that they, they need to come back to and say, you know, in the moment that was, I said that too strongly, or I was very harsh, or I, I, I was just letting emotion out, but I realized it was in a hurtful way. And even if we're the betrayed spouse, we can recognize that, that, you know, saying sorry for using hurtful words doesn't mean we're making their behavior okay. It's just we're, we need to be responsible for our behaviors. But, but also to recognize when you're in a really emotional place, you might say emotional things that then you come back and go, that was, that was not really the right way, but maybe you can express that was probably showing the level of my anger or hurt or pain. And those can be really valuable conversations. And I'm just reflecting on a number of those. I remember in the early years of recovery, like, wow, that was really hard. And my wife acknowledged ways she had said it hurtfully, but also for me, it did underscore, like, wow, there's a lot there that's way more painful than I've been willing to admit, and I probably needed to hear it, even if it was something later she apologized for.

So that's exactly how our conversation went. Later when we reconnected, I said, I, I said, I didn't need to be that harsh. And he said, well, you know what? You were right. He said, I did create this scenario. And so it was a great reconnecting moment. And it can be. These are always opportunities to reconnect. Yeah.

Well, Eileen, this has been a powerful conversation, and I think so crucial for those who are walking in the early days of discovery, both for the spouse that's been betrayed and is walking through all this pain, and for the struggling spouse to recognize the needs and boundaries that their spouse may have and to be supportive of those. So as we wrap up today, if someone is listening and they're new to the journey and they just, they feel frozen, they feel stuck, I, I imagine maybe someone heard about this podcast or someone shared it with them, and they've, they've been crying their way through it because they're very emotional and they just, they don't know what to do or where to turn. What is a small, compassionate next step that he or she could take today with one of these tools? What would you recommend as a starting point as we wrap up today?

Yeah, I think the first thing I would say to that spouse is you just experienced a really hard thing. You're struggling, you're hurting. That makes sense. Your reaction makes sense. Your hurt makes sense. Sense. And you are worth taking care of. You're worth taking a step not so your spouse will get better, but so that you can heal and you're worth that. And so take care of your body, take care of your soul and reach out. There are people here, there are people out there that want to help you.

Yeah. And just with, you know, when I have betrayed spouses or a friend of a betrayed spouse, reach out and say, my sister just went through this. We need resource. It's like you don't know what's going to land. You don't know where they're at, like the starting place, what they're willing to enter into, where they are at, you know, emotionally. There's. There's just so many different starting points. You could have a spouse that said, this has nothing to do with me. I do not want anything to do with this. This is not my problem. Then you have the other spouse that feels like, what can I do? I'm hungry for any resource you give me.

Any.

You know, there's just so many different sides and responses. So I guess I would just encourage, just take some step. And I know we've used this analogy so many times, but just because this didn't. You didn't cause this, it does impact you. And so to not do nothing, that, that taking some steps to at least make sure, like do your due diligence, to make sure that this wasn't traumatizing in a way that's going to show up later, especially as like self harm or autoimmune disease or something. Because. Because we didn't give a chance to process it and unpack it with anybody.

Yeah, I think there's a wealth of knowledge there. I know for my wife, something crucial in the early days for her was to journal, to write it all out, to have a place where she could just express everything she was feeling in very raw, even, you know, angry terms and not feel any pressure that anyone was ever going to see it or read it, but just for her to get it out and then be able to reread it was a really helpful way for her to process. So maybe for you that could be a helpful tool. But I think really the reminder too that there's no one right tool, there's no one right next step, but it's to move towards something good for you that that ultimately could be the greatest thing for the future of the marriage or what recovery looks like. And don't beat yourself up if it feels like a small step. It's like, hey, we're moving the right direction and that can be a very good thing. So thank you Eileen for your sharing your experience with us today and for shedding light on these essential tools that every betrayed spouse needs. In those fragile early days, you've helped women and men understand how even in chaos of trauma, these small intentional steps towards emotional regulation, being grounded in safety and self, compassion and care, can really begin to shift everything. And while these tools don't erase the pain, they can begin to anchor us in clarity and strength when so much feels out of control. So for those that are listening, if you feel stuck or overwhelmed, know that healing doesn't require a giant leap all at once, but just one brave, kind choice at a time. And as much as possible here at Pure Desire, we are here to help. So Eileen, thanks for joining and for sharing all of your thoughts with us today.

You're welcome. Glad to be here and yeah, we.

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