Building Emotional Stability & Resilience | Ep. 466

Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. And whether this is your first day in recovery or your 10,000th, we hope you will hear life-giving conversations that maybe you've never got to be a part of before. Today is episode 466, and here joining me is my co-host for this series, is the one and only John Begum. And John, welcome to the podcast.

It's so good to be back. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, this series I think is a great one because we're talking about not, not just recovery, which is what our normal show is about, from recovery from sex addiction, from betrayal. This series is really about how do we create a life that's just porn-proof where we don't need things to cope with in unhealthy ways. And today's subject matter, I think, is something that applies to all of us, and that's Learning Greater Emotional Stability.

And what I think is so helpful, one, Heather gives such practical advice. Like, if you guys stick around for nothing else, like, there are some things that you could legitimately implement to solve some real problems you might be facing in life that are really, really tangible. But I just love the way she's inviting us into what does actual self-regulation look like more than just turning to a coping behavior, whether that's food or sex or alcohol or whatever that might be, right? There's a plethora of things that we might turn to. Heather is like, "No, no, no, your feelings aren't bad. Your feelings are telling you something. Understand them. You don't have to cope with them. And there are real healthy ways in which we can navigate what we're feeling." Yeah, Heather is awesome.

She's like the mom/professor we all need to talk us through parts of life. And I think that's what's the truth about emotions is that we all have them. We all experience them. The question is if we're aware of where they're coming from and what messages they might be trying to tell us that can be a helpful part of living relationship with others or ignoring them to our detriment. And I think there's really clear pictures of what both look like in this episode.

This is so simple, and I haven't unpacked it fully, but Adam Young, who's an author and a podcaster, has described the word emotion as simply breaking it down into e-motion, as in these things that we're feeling, or the dashboard lights that we'll talk about in the episode, are meant to put us into motion. Now, the hope is that we respond well, right? Sometimes we can respond poorly and we can respond well. And hopefully this episode is a part of helping us understand how to respond well. But I thought that was helpful. It's just like, these aren't bad, these aren't good, but they are telling us something and inviting us to move. And the hope is that we move in health towards coping in healthy ways or regulating— self-regulation. But I thought that was a helpful understanding.

Yeah. Well, I think you'll see and hear why emotional stability is a big part of living a pornproof life. And, uh, Heather is the perfect guest for that. A little bit more about Heather for those that may not be familiar with her. Heather is the Associate Director of Product Development and Neuroscience Professional here for Pure Desire. She has a bachelor's in psychology, a master's in criminal behavior, and is a certified pastoral sex addiction professional through ITAP. Heather has been trained in the Multidimensional Partner Trauma Model through APSATS and worked as a college professor prior to joining Pure Desire. She is a speaker and a contributing author to Pure Desire resources such as Digital Natives, Unraveled, Betrayal and Beyond, and Authentically You, and is also the co-host of our other wonderful podcast, Unfiltered: Real Talk About Sex and Love, where she and Ashley Jameson lead candid, non-judgmental conversations about sex, relationships, and healing for women. So here now is our conversation with Heather Kolb, uh, part 2 of 5 in our series on the porn-proof life on emotional stability. Heather Kolb, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, this time as a guest. Welcome back to the guest chair, the expert chair.

Thank you. Yes, thank you. It's nice to be here.

Yes, I know our audience always loves hearing your voice and they love hearing your expertise, which you kind of get to share a little more of when you're the guest than the co-host. So looking forward to this and to a topic that, as I kind of thought of this series we've been doing on the porn-proof life, how to build a life that is, you know, in a sense porn-proof, that I think emotions are a big part of that. And I could think of no better guest to have on to talk about that than you. So, thank you. Looking forward to this. As we jump in, can you just define what we would mean by emotional stability? How do we know if this is an area of strength for us or of needed growth? Or in other words, how do we assess if we're managing our emotions or if our emotions are managing us?

Yeah, this is a great question. When we talk about emotional stability, really we're just thinking about the way that we can stay calm and consistent and balanced with our emotions, even during times of great stress or anything that pops up unexpectedly in our lives, just that ability to stay even with our emotions. And keeping in mind that nobody is ever, you know, 100% successful in this. I think we can all think of seasons where it was like, yeah, I had really good emotional awareness. I was emotionally stable. Emotionally stable, and then something happens that then our emotions are all over the place because we're kind of experiencing something, maybe even for the first time emotionally. And so just keeping that also in, in the context of when we talk about emotional stability. Um, the second question saying that, how do we know if this is a strength or an area of growth? I think that even if it is a strength, it should always be an area of growth because we just are emotional beings. God created us that way. And so continuing to pursue emotional health and awareness is always something that is good when we look at, you know, holistically, what are we doing for ourselves to maintain health. But specifically, when we notice that maybe our emotions are controlling us a little bit more is when we have a tendency to maybe emotionally react in a way that doesn't seem to match the situation. So if the situation is here and our reaction to it is here, or if it's here, then something might be a little bit off, if that makes sense.

I'm saying, Heather, when you talk about, you know, being above or below, for me, I think it was recovery where I first really got this idea of just our, you know, tolerance, our window of tolerance. And I don't know, it could have been you. You could have been the one who taught me that. And being hyper aroused or hypo-aroused. And again, not aroused from the same point of sexually, just to be heightenedly aware of something. And to your point, like emotional stability, like if you have to slam on the brakes on the way home tonight, you know, like you are probably going to be hyper-aroused of what's happening and very alert. Or, you know, the, the cop sirens behind you or the, the lights. Every time my body is just flooded with like adrenaline. It's like, well, that's not you being emotionally unstable. That's you probably feeling an appropriate emotion in the moment. Yeah. And so can you, I mean, what—

Well, that's what I was thinking about, that we wanna make sure to say that emotional stability doesn't mean that we're always like unemotional. Right. Because for some of our listeners, and I would even say in my background, kind of the upper Midwest, Scandinavian, like stiff upper lip culture, emotional stability would meant like not showing emotion. Mm-hmm. It's just always like kind of flat. So I, I think in truth, if, if if there's a happy situation, we want to be really happy. And if it's sad, we want to be sad. If it's, if it's scary, be scared. Like, feel the emotions. But to me, what emotional stability means is having an understanding that my emotions are not in and of themselves the reality, that it's something I'm experiencing and feeling, and it's something— it helps me become aware of what I'm going through, but it's, it's not reality itself. It's an indicator of something else that I'm experiencing. And I say that because I think we live in a world that right now is kind of telling people you are what you feel. And so if I feel something, I am something. If I'm sad, like I'm depressed because I felt sad, or I felt this desire for this inappropriate sexual behavior, so well then I am that. Like, no, that feeling is an indicator of something. And to me, emotional stability is that awareness of, oh, I'm experiencing something, but that's not truly reality. It's an indicator of something else.

Mm-hmm. Heather, you've said in the past that there are no good emotions, there are no bad emotions. What do you mean by that?

Mm-hmm, yeah. So, and this is one of those questions too that I think people find confusing because they're looking at not just the emotion itself, but usually the behavior that follows or the reaction to the emotion, something like that. So the emotion itself is not good or bad, it just is. And like you were saying, Nick, a lot of times our emotions are definitely definitely an indicator of something that we need to be paying attention to. It could be something internal, it could be something external, but it really isn't the emotion in and of itself isn't good or bad. What we do with that emotion could be good or bad.

Yeah, I think this comes from many of us being trained that if we are in Christ, there are certain things we are not supposed to feel. Like, well, how could you be, you know, how could I be discouraged because Jesus is my portion? There are all these great hymns about, like, or little kid songs. I've got the joy, joy, joy down in my heart, where down in my heart. And if you're a Christian, you're just supposed to be happy. That's what I was told as a kid or how I felt. So if I was sad or angry or felt fear, I internalized that as there's something wrong, that this is bad, don't feel that. And that's what I feel like I've learned a lot from you, Heather, is we need all the emotions and God created all the emotions. And if I'm feeling sad, it doesn't mean I don't don't trust Jesus. It means something sad is happening, right? And it'd be better to understand what it is than to try to say, "Oh, don't feel that," because that's been, I think, my reaction to what we would often call bad or negative emotions.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I grew up with those same messages that if you're worried, then you're not trusting the Lord or something like that. And I don't think that's the reality of how we're supposed to use our emotions.

Yeah, and to be sure, if we're not trusting the Lord, we might have more worry. I mean, so those things can go together.

Yes.

But I think we want to just acknowledge Jesus, who was a perfect human being, felt all the emotions and was the Son of God, God in a human body.

Yeah. Well said. I was just thinking one of our board members, Ken, who shared his story at last year's fundraising dinner so beautifully, he started by saying that at some point he put a lot of these emotions or uncomfortable experiences in the out of sight, out of mind bin. And I'm like, I'm like, how many of us in this room, let alone the people listening, have done the same? And there's this great philosopher, his name is Andy Mineo. That's a joke. He's just a Christian artist. But in one of his songs, he said, "When we bury emotions, we bury them alive, only to come back stronger one day later in our life." And that was my story.

Yeah.

I had not done the internal work because I had just kept burying them and burying them and burying them to be like, they don't exist, they don't exist, they don't exist. And I'm like, and because I was told that we shouldn't be controlled by our emotions, and so I was like trying to bury them, but in doing so, they were controlling me even more. Yeah, exactly. And it was— it wasn't until group that I began unearthing, truly like uncovering them, and seeing that they were leading to a lot of my relapses to pornography and masturbation use. I'm like, are you kidding me? Because I felt really deceived that I couldn't have them or they were bad, but it was in naming them and understanding them that I was actually no longer controlled by them. Yeah, that was so helpful for me.

Well, and we've talked about this on this show, we talk about it around Pure Desire, that, that emotions are indicators of deeper realities. We've talked about them like the, the warning lights or the lights on a dashboard, that the light in and of itself was not the problem, the light's telling us about something else going on. So tell us a little bit more, Heather, about what that means and how are emotions a pathway for us into understanding our own stories.

Yeah, and so, if you think of it, and I like that analogy that the— our emotions are like the indicator, like the warning light that something else is wrong, that something else we need to pay attention to. Because I think that if you even think so much about the way that our brain packages our experiences and our emotions together, that that in and of itself ourself is gonna help us to understand our pathway and our story, so much that if we have something that happens and our emotion that comes to the surface is fear, even though there's really nothing to be afraid of, but we start to recognize that there's a pattern there that I'm afraid or I'm feeling fear of something, that could be very telling about our own story. Even if it is something that maybe comes from more, like you were saying, John, a buried emotion, but something that would stem from fear and something that keeps popping up over and over again is definitely something we need to pay attention to. And especially when you look at our emotions and think that they have a tendency to kind of shed light on what we value, the way we see ourselves, our self-perception, our negative thought patterns, all of those things are wrapped in our emotions, and it really is telling about who we think we are.

I think I have such a recent example of this, and it was literally my commitment to change in group. For anybody who doesn't know, in Pure Desire groups, you make a commitment to change every week. And my commitment to change was to schedule an appointment with an optometrist. I have contacts, I wear glasses, but I have not updated my prescription in literally 8 years. And you'd be like, are you kidding me? Why? Well, 6 years ago, I went to an optometrist in South Dakota before I kind of left South Dakota. And it was here that I got a prescription. And when I tried on the contacts, it wasn't helpful. Like, the contact was kind of painful and I didn't feel like I could see very well. And, and so now, 6 years later, I have been living from this past moment and I have a level of fear, like the optometrist isn't going to help me. And I've been reverting back to the prescription 8— from 8 years ago because I like the feel of the contacts. I feel like I can see. But recently my eyes have been bothering me and I'm like, this is painful. And it wasn't until the pain got loud enough that I had to name to my group the fear and the emotion that was holding me hostage from going to see the optometrist. Just yesterday I went and saw the optometrist and guess what? He's like, your left eye has changed considerably, and it makes sense why your eye is hurting. Your eye is trying to compensate, and it's not, it's not liking the contact that you have, and it's straining. And he's like, he's like, hey, check out this new prescription. He's like, here's what you're currently seeing through. And I'm like, I can't see the letters. And then he's like, how about now with the new prescription? I'm like, are you kidding me? I literally said to him, thank you for rescuing me. I was in the chair. I said, thank you for rescuing me.

Well, and what a great illustration that when we face and understand our emotions, there's good on the other side. Like, it can lead into something healthy. And I, I think that's what you said, Heather, that really stands out to me, is when our emotional response is not in line with what's happening, that's an indicator to go, okay, there's something deeper here. And it's like, in my marriage, when you're married to someone, you're, you're making comments to one another all the time, and somebody's like, okay, they're kind of in a bad mood, it's just like water off a duck's back. And other times something will land and I can just, I can feel like the anger or like like, and I'll admit I'm not good at doing this in the moment. This is more of like a self-reflective, maybe later that day or the next morning, like, why did that comment create such an internal response? And I can maybe recognize that, oh, there was a message. Here's what my wife said, but the message I heard was, you know, a criticism of why aren't you good enough? Or, and I can start to tie that back and go, how is that one of my triggers in life? What, where does this show up in my family of origin or in a relationship with one of my parents. And when you can put the story together, kind of our, our good friend Adrian Hickman's quote of what makes this make sense, you go, oh, I, I was not just reacting to what she said, I was reacting to the message that was tucked into it because of my story. And it both helps me maybe analyze my story and invite some healing there, but also stay more present in relationships and not get flooded or triggered when someone didn't even intend for that kind of response in me.

Mm-hmm, yeah. And that is really good awareness. It's one of the things too that if you can get better at in the moment, taking a look at that, and because sometimes even the weight of waiting and having to sit in that discomfort is not as helpful as going more toward the curious and, you know, investigating kind of ourself a little bit. I think that that's more helpful.

Yeah.

Well, I know when I don't do that, what happens is I put the burden on the other person, more often than not my wife, to fix what happened. And it's unfair because I'm kind of asking her to fix a problem she didn't even create. So I'm feeling disrespected and I'm trying now to like, in a fight or conversation, get her to, you know, see that I was disrespected when maybe that's not even really what happened. It's more about my reaction. So when we don't do that work, when we don't analyze what we're feeling, we will put a burden on others to fix problems they didn't create.

And they probably are not even aware of.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, I think for me, that's where like awareness, to your point, began the journey forwards. And I remember sitting with Ben Bennett, who's one of our board members in Dallas, Texas, and he was like, hey, have you ever heard of the FASTER scale? No. And he starts walking me through it, and I got increasingly angrier as he walked me through it because it was the first time I experienced hope. But I was so devastated that I felt like I had been deceived my whole life because what was he doing? He was showing me this pattern of emotions and how I was ending up in relapse. And I'm sitting there as a 21-year-old going like, are you kidding me? Like, my relapses haven't been random? Because at that point I just thought I was bad and utterly, like, hopeless and was never going to change. And I, I'm just curious, Heather, could you help our audience unpack how emotions can often lead to relapse, as well as how identifying them can actually help us break that cycle of returning to the place we swore we'd never go?

Yeah, and you hear this a lot with couples who are in recovery. I think that that's where it becomes, um, it's a little bit more obvious that if you have one the— maybe the addict spouse has some unmet needs and is having a hard time communicating those and then feels angry. And then from that anger, then decides in his mind that, you know, "Well, I'm gonna— I wanna feel better, and so I'm gonna look at porn and masturbate to make myself feel better." It's— I think that sometimes it's being able to identify those patterns instead of being able to to look at the situation and come up with something new, or to be able to— I mean, a new coping behavior, or to be able to even sit with the feeling of, why does it make me angry if my wife does whatever, or doesn't want sex tonight, or whatever the situation is? And then the other piece to when we start to feel angry about something is looking at what's sitting under that anger, because Anger is an easy emotion for a lot of us, and it usually covers what we're really feeling, that we're feeling rejected or unwanted or lonely or not good enough, you know, all of those other feelings that tend to, you know, tap at our core woundedness. And so being able to look at that and again, investigating, be kind of a detective of your own behaviors and recognize that, okay, I can see over the last month that on 3 separate occasions when I got into a discussion with my wife and I started to feel angry, that this is what I did. This was my acting out behavior. And if you can see that ahead of time, then I think it really does not only give you a different level of awareness, because we have a tendency to— and I know I'm exactly this way, I am guilty of this 100%— to not want to pay attention to our emotions because I don't want the responsibility that I know that is attached to that emotion. And So I will like discount it, shove it down, something like that. But then if I want the change in behavior, it requires me to look at that emotion and look at what I'm feeling and look at where it shows up in my life, look at what comes before and what comes after in the behaviors and do something new. I mean, that's the only way that we ever are gonna create lasting change. Is if we're willing to dig into our own behaviors, dig into our own emotions, find the patterns, and replace it with something different.

Yeah. I feel like this is very much my story and what I learned in Pure Desire, that those, those strong negative emotions, like you mentioned, loneliness, rejection, fear, when they're not addressed, when I, when I wouldn't pay attention to them, I would just try to shove them out of thought or mind. I would be in a place of discomfort or dysregulation. And whenever we sit in that place of emotional discomfort, then the siren song of pornography or things like alcohol or numbing out with something else, they get louder. They have more strength because we want— and this is how God wired us and designed us— we want to feel better. We don't want to sit in discomfort or dysregulation. And if something kind of offers, even if it's a cheap, unhealthy substitute, but it's like, yeah, I can make you feel better. That then we're going to gravitate towards it even if we don't mean to, just because we're looking to feel better. And I, I say that's my story because I feel like for years in my life that pattern was happening. I was blind to it. I just thought, like you said, John, well, yeah, the pornography is really attractive, and I got— it kind of got caught in my mind and I couldn't stop thinking about it. Well, as I began to identify my pattern, I could see the reasons or the times in my life where I couldn't stop thinking about it were also where I was avoiding the emotions I was feeling. So rather than dealing with them in healthy ways, sooner or later my brain would find another way to deal with that discomfort.

Well, it just makes me think, to your point, Heather, we were made to be regulated, and we were made to be comforted, and we were made to be soothed. Those are all good desires. And I think for so many of us, we enter into recovery, or we end up in discovery or disclosure, this, you know, the floor falls out, we're in crisis, and we're like, oh my gosh, I have a sex problem, and that's how it presents. But the reality is that we have a self-regulation problem, and we've been grabbing a fake or false substance, or just a cheap substance, a destructive substance that's hurting us and hurting others as a form of coping. I remember here I was reading, uh, Sam Jolman's book, and he's been a guest on this podcast, and he said porn or masturbation— and the two of them often mixed together— have become the sous-déjeuner of our culture. It's just the most convenient thing you can grab. We're more stressed out than ever, and we have higher access to this drug called pornography than ever. So what's gonna happen? Of course you're gonna grab the cheap substance that's checking out at the counter, and you're like, oh, chocolates, let's throw that into the grocery cart. It's like, wait, where did that go?

Nobody's ever done that.

Exactly. It's just like, dang, it's right there. And but he said, like, he's like, so many men come to me saying I have a sex problem, and I look at them and say, no, you don't. You have a self-regulation problem, and you were never taught how to regulate. And that just like breaks my heart because I'm like, gosh, how do we fix this? How do we be a part of, you know, whether it's young women or young men, coming alongside of them and teaching them how to regulate? Like, you don't have to run to video games or Instagram or whatever you're running to. Like, you were made to be comforted, soothed, and rightly connected. But for so many of us, right, trust is broken between a parent or a friend, and we isolate we go interior, we don't know what to do. And so we grab whatever we can grab. My roommate's like, John, you're a carb monster. I'm like, what do you mean I'm a carb monster? He's like, you're always eating just the cheapest, you know, breads or sugars you can. Like, because, like, you don't really invest in protein. And it made me change my diet. Like, I'm no longer eating like a bagel and Nutella. And you're like, that's what you were eating for breakfast? Like, yeah, just it tasted good. And now I'm investing in the right things. But somebody had to make me aware of that. And for so many of us, we just turn to the most convenient thing. And again, just to say, you were made to be regulated, and unfortunately you've been taught to regulate in really unhealthy ways.

Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of the Hebrew concept of shalom that means peace, but we know it's not just like the absence of war peace. It's like this holistic being at peace with God, others, and myself. With even the land. It's like I'm just— I'm in a place of well-being all over, even maybe if I'm in the middle of a hard thing, because I'm experiencing the shalom of that, that God is with me in this. But to, to live there, if we haven't been taught, can be very challenging. So sometimes— and Heather, we already got into this a little bit, but I'd love to hear you speak more about it. Sometimes when we're feeling strong emotions, and if, you know, we're being honest, we mean more maybe the negative emotions like anger, fear, rejection, all of that, it can be difficult to slow down and analyze what's happening in the middle of it because we're getting out of our window of tolerance or we're going limbic, as we've called it. How do we learn to do this? How do we learn to slow down and become aware of what's happening?

Mm-hmm, and a lot of times for all of us, we have a tendency to react in the moment because we are feeling angry or whatever else is there. And as soon as that emotional high is gone, we get back into our prefrontal cortex, our brain is working better, and we can look and say, apologize to the people that we probably need to apologize first, but then look at it and say, and do that same investigation, you know, to say that this is what I was feeling in the moment, this is the anger that came out, but then dig deeper into that and figure out what it was exactly that you are feeling and why, and then being able to, again, set yourself up for success. You know, if you know that these are the kind of conversations that are triggering to you, that you need to have a better game plan going into the conversations, or if you find that maybe you didn't ever have any really good emotional health and you want some clinical support to help you unpack that, Do that, you know what I mean? Because we really do need to become better at not only the regulating part, but having that level of awareness. Because when I get better at regulating my own emotions and having better emotional awareness for me, the thing that it does is it makes me then so much more aware of the emotional health of those around me, so much more in tune with the emotions of others. Because if I am just wanting to be emotionally healthy so that I know what to call what I'm feeling, that's great. But if we want to really be able to, through relationship and connection and intimacy, like emotional intimacy, if we want to experience that, it can't be all about ourselves and our emotional health. It has to be that we're going to become emotionally healthy and emotionally stable so that we can have emotional relationships with other people.

That's so profound. What I hear you saying is like, we need to get emotionally healthy enough, not just for ourselves, but to like feel on behalf of somebody else. Right. Which so many addicts don't. I mean, one, they've never been given the gift of their own emotional health and definitely don't have empathy for this other person, whether that's a spouse or a friend or whoever it might be. That's profound.

Yeah. It makes me think of like the process of learning to drive a car. When I took driver's ed, I had literally never driven a car. So it was like, first it was several weeks of classes and videos and whiteboard instruction, and then came the first drive. And when I got in the car, I remember that the driver's ed instructor, you know, this is Montana, so most kids by the time they got to driver's ed had been driving for a couple years already, and they were just doing driver's ed for like the insurance and to get their license. But I had legitimately never operated an automobile. And so he's like, well, why don't you you just drive over to this parking lot. I'm like, how? And he's like, okay, turn over the key, put your foot on the brake, you know, okay, now put it in reverse. And he had to talk me step by step by step through. Okay, that was the first drive. Second drive, he had to give me fewer instructions and things I kind of remember, but I was still thinking about every individual step. And the third time, a little less. And then eventually get to a point like if someone said, well, let's drive across town, I don't even think about out any of the— I just do it because it's become a part of what I recognize. And I think emotional, um, recognizing our emotions is kind of like that. If, if we're new to it early on, it might be, I need to meet with a counselor for a little bit, I'm going to journal my thoughts, I'm going to reflect back, like, what happened, what was I feeling? And the next time a similar situation occurs where we're feeling flooded by that same emotion, some of that learning is going to kick in. And probably a little sooner, closer to the event, we'll Oh, this is what's happening. And if we'll keep in that kind of practice and habit of being self-aware, being in group with others, sharing, you know, what we're walking through, there are gonna come moments where in the very middle of a conversation, you'll be aware of like, okay, I'm getting flooded by feeling rejection. This is one of my core messages that I have to overcome because it's tied. And without ever thinking about it, you're just becoming aware. Now that doesn't become a guarantee that you will respond to it appropriately, as I can attest to, you know, in marriage and relationships. But that awareness does become more instantaneous of like, oh, I know what I'm feeling now. And it at least gives you the opportunity to, rather than being reactive to it, to respond in light of what you're aware of. And what I have found, this goes now connected to what you said, Heather, it gives me the opportunity in that conversation to say to my spouse, hey, I realize I'm being really triggered by feeling like I'm not good enough. And I don't believe that's what you intend, but that's what I'm experiencing. It's making hard for me not to go to these extremes. "But in communicating that now, I'm inviting someone else to recognize what's happening and hopefully work through it together versus just being all reactive in that moment." Mm-hmm, yeah.

And it definitely takes work for all of us. I know that there have been times, I can think of a situation lately with my husband that I said something and his response and the way that he left the room, I knew exactly that that what I had said, even if it wasn't my intent, that I hurt his feelings and that he was probably feeling a host of things. And so, after just a few minutes, because I always think that space is a good thing for a few minutes, I went out to the weight room and I said, "I know that what I just said probably hurt you and this is not, that's not what I meant. This is what I was saying. How can I fix this? How can I?" You know, because you just, you know that, but you know the other person well enough too to know that, "Ugh, I just hit that wound. I just hit that spot, and I didn't mean to, and I spoke too soon and too fast, and I was in a hurry to make my point." And it gives us too the opportunity to then quickly put into place repair or work toward repair because we don't want those— I mean, those emotional things, they're the things that sit and simmer and simmer and simmer and simmer and simmer, and then they explode seemingly out of nowhere. But it isn't out of nowhere for the person who's been feeling it all along.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What a beautiful analogy just to highlight really clearly what rupture and repair can look like, as simply as, you know, a comment that was potentially misinterpreted or received poorly, and you knew that. But also, I just love the concept of like lifting in the gym And you have to break muscle to, to rebuild muscle. And it's actually in the tearing and rebuilding that you're growing stronger. And when, when rupture and repair are done well, we have the ability to build something so much bigger, so much better, so much stronger. I love getting to talk with couples at times, an individual saying, we're not trying to give you back what you had. We're trying to get you to a place that you've never been before. Or something absolutely new. But just when it comes to being triggered or something lands poorly and we're feeling rejection or isolation or some of these negative— again, not bad, but negative emotions come up— how can we regulate to not turn towards relapse but turn back towards health? And maybe this is my own bias.

How do we change?

Yeah, how do we change? And also, can you talk about maybe breathing a bit? I just like, from a brain science, like, what does breathing have to do with regulation too?

Yeah, I think sometimes that, especially when it comes to feeling triggered and if we're alone, that a lot of times our brain that's being flooded by this emotion and everything, we need somebody else's brain to walk us through that. And so, I think that's usually— I mean, we think we can figure it out on our own, and our brain is just gonna keep spinning in a loop. And so, finding other safe people, I think, is— is one of the best things. And almost immediately, I was recently at a conference with Ashley for women, and she was up on the stage speaking, and I was in the front row. And, you know, I was listening, taking a couple notes, and all of a sudden, she said something, and I felt triggered in the moment. And not even— and it just in this really unusual, "I haven't thought of that in 25 years" type of feeling. And then, after she was done with her session, I said, "You know what? Something triggered me, you know, when, in what you said." She's like, "I know, I saw it. I saw you." And she said, "I think I know where it was, and we should talk about it." And so, it's having that kind of a connection to say, "I'm feeling so flooded, I don't even know where to begin right now." And having somebody else who knows you, and loves you, and cares so much about your— you know, mental and emotional health who will say, "Yes, I know exactly what it is. Let me help you." So, and then the breathing part, that is something that I think is way underutilized because we think that it has to be the specific thing for this many minutes and, you know, that kind of thing. Whereas I know that there are times even at work when I start to feel overwhelmed by something or an email I just got or something that I can just I just push my chair away from my desk. I just sit for 2 minutes and I breathe in and out, and I grab some scripture, or I even just say, "Lord, you are my refuge and my strength," you know, and that's all it is. And I just repeat it and I just breathe for a couple minutes because it really does just give oxygen to your brain, slows your heart, slow your breathing, you know. It does a lot of really good things for you. I think there's other grounding exercises too that are really helpful when we feel dysregulated by something, but yeah, they go together. It's all part of that learning process.

Yeah.

You know, I'd love to ask a follow-up question because I think it's one that many ask. I'm just really curious along the lines of this what you would say. One of the struggles that many men and women have is at night when they've maybe successfully avoided some of these strong emotions all day 'cause they work hard or they're exercising at the gym or they're watching TV, but then everything goes quiet and it's time to go to sleep sleep. And then the brain sometimes doesn't feel like our ally. It can feel like our enemy. It's like, oh, here's all those things that you haven't been paying attention to. Here's your work anxiety. Here's your issues with your kids. Here's your marriage issues. And, and starting to feel flooded when we're— we just want to go to sleep. Or maybe waking up in the middle of the night and now we can't go back to sleep because things start— the things we haven't addressed very well during the day. So maybe part of the answer is face your emotions during the day. But when we're in that situ— and I bring it up because I think that is a part of a lot of relapse patterns of I couldn't sleep and I was feeling all this stuff and I ended up on the computer or the TV or something 'cause everyone else is in bed and now I can get into some things that maybe I normally wouldn't, but it's the middle of the night. So what are some strategies you would offer if someone's feeling strong emotions when they're trying to go to sleep and everyone else isn't, you know, you can't call a friend 'cause they're all in bed. What can you do then to emotionally stabilize?

So one of the things that I have found really useful is to write down the feeling word, that whatever it is that keeps popping up that is driving, you know, your— the anxiety or whatever, what it is you're feeling about, write down as much as you can about that. Because sometimes, if we've gotten to the habit of kind of just stuffing things down, our brain is like, "Wait, wait, wait, we haven't dealt with this. Wait, it's," you know—

There's more.

Yes. And so, and even if you can just grab a piece of paper and a pencil and write it down, don't use your computer, don't use your phone, don't use anything like that, but just go old school. And sit and just get it out on something. Get it out and then see if that will calm your brain enough to relax. I know there is, I asked one, this other psychologist one time, like, "Okay, what if you're in bed and you can't go to sleep?" And this is the funniest thing, but it works, I swear, is that you lay on your back and move your feet like this, move your feet back and forth and count, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, and you'll fall asleep.

That's actually—

that's amazing.

What's it called, the— when the brain is going back and forth, right to left brain? Uh, because there's music. Yeah, it's intended to do the same. And I imagine that's part of what's happening with your feet.

Yes.

Is you're getting— rather than getting stuck in one part of your brain where there is some hurt or pain or trauma, you're keeping your brain connected. And music can do that, body movement. That's, um, a very practical tool that I, I like that combination of like, you know, write— maybe your brain is trying to help you, maybe it is your ally. Write it down. And that doesn't mean right there that night you have to figure it all out and process it, but it's now it's out and can be seen. Like, then you might be able to rest and try some of these practical things to go to sleep.

I, I like that a lot. We make a YouTube Short of just that, just the 1, 2, 1. And can we specifically get somebody laying in a bed just modeling it with their feet, you know, 1, 2, 1, That might be the most practical thing—

there's our meme—

that somebody could take away from this. I just— it's so tangible. And I think of just a story of my own. Sorry, uh, when I got into group, I was of course very addicted and very stuck and relapsing often. And I was about 3 months in, and I was a click away from viewing pornography on Twitter. And I knew that because I had already looked at the thumbnail, I was gonna have to sleep a night on the floor because of my recovery action plan that I committed to. And if I clicked the video, I'd have to sleep for 7 nights on the floor. And my brain hit this wall of pain, like, warning, like, you don't want this. And I threw my phone down and I literally took— I ran outside and I just like changed location. I'm like trying anything and everything to like de-escalate what's happening in my brain. And I got back in, instead of clicking the video, I called somebody, and them him being with me in that moment. To your point, sometimes we need somebody else's brain. I literally told them, hey, I'm stuck right now and I can't remember truth. Can you remind me of who I am and where I am and what I'm about in life? Because I can't remember it right now. And I literally stood in my parents' garage during COVID 2020 and listened to this other guy tell me my own story because I couldn't remember for it because I was so lost. Powerful. And it was that night that as I laid in bed— because for me, I learned to masturbate while, like, before I fell asleep, that was my rhythm in bed. And I think it might have been you, Heather, but somebody was telling me that when we lay down, all of our muscles are relaxed and our brain quite literally has more capacity to think about all the things that we shouldn't be thinking about, or now we are, and we can get overwhelmed. But also, for me, that's just the place where I found myself somehow being homosexual. I think some of that was rhythm and pattern. That's just simply where I had learned to masturbate. And for me, breathing and simple box breathing— I can't tell you how many times my arousal quite literally de-escalated because I was simply bringing oxygen into my brain. To your point, it's just a short breath prayer. What was yours, Heather? Be my refuge.

Lord, you're my refuge and my strength.

Yeah, you're my refuge and my strength. For me, it was Psalm 23, like, you're my shepherd, there's nothing I want. Because lust was constantly screaming in my brain, I want, I want, I I want, and to be reminded that I have enough, that when God is with me, he is enough. And that idea of like, we need somebody else's brain, like quite literally, like imagining being with Jesus. And I'm like, I think there's a whole sermon in there, by the way, you know, needing somebody else with us. Christ being with me in that moment de-escalated my arousal and moved me away from masturbation hundreds if not thousands of times in my recovery.

Yeah, well, it is about practicing some of these things, putting them into our rhythm. And you guys are bringing up some great strategies when you're in maybe a difficult spot, but what does it look like? And I know this is something you really specialize or do so well in teaching, Heather, is what are the kind of routines or rhythms we could practice when we're in a relatively good spot emotionally, whether daily or weekly? What are some of those habits that would help us develop emotional health, stability, and resilience for when things are getting rough?

Mm-hmm, yeah. Just a couple things is, you know, I know some people, even like at the dinner table, they'll talk about high lows or what were 3 big emotions that you had today, or those kind of things. Because I think it was back to your point that if we're not teaching our kids and even as a family learning emotional health, where are our kids gonna learn it from? And so being able to just name what we're feeling, whether or not we're using a feelings wheel or those posters that have all the emojis with the feeling word below it, or anything like that to just get them familiar with using the words, using the word that says, "Oh, that must make you really happy," or, "I'm sorry that you're feeling sad today," or whatever the feeling word is. I think that's really important. Also being able to journal. I know that in my childhood, we weren't taught about emotions and feelings were bad And I think because my parents kind of didn't really know what to do with it. And so, you know, hearing the things like, you know, "Stop crying," or "I'll give you something to cry about," you know, that kind of thing. And even in my first marriage, I didn't really learn anything about emotion. In fact, emotions were not helpful at the time. And so, I really, you know, part of survival was pushing those down. And so, when I was in therapy, and I was very resistant to learning anything about emotions, And we— she had these feeling cards, you know, and they just had maybe 4 or 5 emotions on it. And one week she challenged me to, you know, take one of those home and, you know, let me know how that goes. And it was really hard because it seemed like a waste of my time, a waste of my energy. Why do I need this? Emotions are not helpful. And yet, at the same time, the more I learned about emotion and being able to name it, even if naming it made me uncomfortable. That I feel, you know, unwanted or undervalued or, you know, whatever it was, that the emotion, just being able to name it, gave me— it was kind of empowering to just be able to name it. And then also journaling about our emotions. I think that's really powerful. And sometimes, I've used this one a lot, when I have a recurring emotion that pops up, and of course, I am I initially say, "I'm not feeling that," but then when I will say, "Okay, this is what I'm feeling," I'll write it down. I'll leave it on the paper where I can see it. I'll walk by it several times throughout the day. And then when I have like 10 minutes the next morning, I'll take that paper and I'll sit down and I'll write everything that comes to mind about that word. Because sometimes I think that if we try to rush it, that this is an exercise, I'm going to write down what I feel about this, then we're not really getting to the core of why we're feeling what we're feeling. And so just giving our brain a little bit of time to kind of sort it out and then giving ourselves space and time can be helpful.

That's so good. It makes me think recently on the— on— I often call people whether it's driving to the office or driving home, because I'm just the most extroverted person you've probably ever met. And I would often call my dad on the way home. And sometimes I'd just say like, "Oh, how was your day?" And we'd have a good conversation, but at some point I switched and I started asking him, "What was one feeling you felt today?" And it seemed to be more of a generative conversation rather than like, "Oh, I did this, I did this, I did this," you know, just like a reporting. It became this self-reflection and almost an invitation deeper of like, "I felt dismissed." It's like, "Dad, that's a great word." You know, like, "Tell me more." You know, what was the story? And like getting invited into the moment and the experience more than just the reporting of, I fed the cattle. My dad, you know, is a farmer and rancher. It was a really beautiful experience of getting to ask— it was just into your point, deeper. Some of these, just a simple question, a simple reframe of how we're engaging people in the world.

Well, and I, as I hear you guys share that, it makes me think we have, in this area of learning emotions and how to be emotionally healthy and resilient, we have to give ourselves freedom to fail. Because I think sometimes, especially if we're in kind of a performance mindset or perfectionist a little bit. We want to get it right. Like, well, what's the exact thing I'm feeling and where did it come from? And A plus B equals C. And I think when we're starting to really recognize emotions, it feels a little bit like guessing. And that's okay. Like, well, what were you feeling? And maybe you're like, I don't know, maybe unvalued or unheard. Could that be it? Like, it doesn't have to be perfect. Like, well, let's explore that word. What made you think that? And I think that freedom to not have to get it just right, but you're just kind of exploring and learning in. And maybe you're totally wrong. No one is going to grade you. No one's going to judge you. Oh, sorry, that's not the feeling you were feeling. Like, it's just being free to listen to what comes to mind. It makes me think too what we say in groups about certain exercises, like, if it comes to mind, just write it down. Because I think there are parts of our brain that know intuitively what we're feeling, and it tries to tell us, but our conscious brain goes, no, it's just like you said, oh, it's not that, I'm not feeling that. But a part of our brain is going, "Yeah, would you listen?" And so if you start these exercises or practices, like, "Okay, what am I feeling today?" And something comes to mind, you're like, "Well, that can't be right." Well, you're already hearing your language of perfectionism or performance and just going, "Huh, that's interesting that word came up. I wonder." And trying to explore it, you might find there's some really deep things that come that your brain is trying to help you pay attention to.

That's so good. I would say also just random side note before the next question, silence. I think sitting in silence and just feeling the mess of our mind, that's a scary experience. And at the same time, I think there's something so profound to letting the jar of shaken partiments of our life actually come to a place of settling. And I have found that it's really hard for me to sit in silence. Again, I'm an extrovert. And, and the importance of it to like actually let my mind try to come to rest. And I say try because it's hard. But, uh, Heather, when it comes to not only navigating our own emotions but potentially navigating the, the big emotions of others at times, whether that's a spouse or our children, how can we help others without taking on the responsibility? How do we come alongside others who are navigating big emotions?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I read this line last week and I love it. Um, it said self-regulation has to come before co-regulation. That is so good. Self-regulation has to come before co-regulation, which means that we can't help anybody else unless we are emotionally aware and regulated ourselves. And then when we are, we can help them by really just coming alongside them in a very calm and supportive and validating way, not to fix how they're feeling, not tell them that they're wrong, but just really to support them and say all of the things that, you know, people want to hear, like, "I'm so sorry that you're feeling that way," or, "I can understand how difficult that would be and how that probably really was embarrassing," or, "I can understand how disappointing that would be when you were looking forward to this thing and now it's not going to happen." And, you know, just all of those things because it really is just being able to kind of be a regulator, an external regulator for that person. And, and you've— and the way I always think about it is if you have somebody who's like out of their window of tolerance and they're hypoaroused, you're going to be the regulator that's kind of like drawing all of that high energy out of them to bring them back into their window. But it happens just by being calm and validating and telling them that to understand, and you know, that's what I would do. That's what I have done.

Yeah, I think asking good questions. Hey, what, you know, you said with your dad, like, what are you feeling right now? Or how can I support you? Or your advice, Heather, that often a little bit of space can make a world of difference. Maybe we're the one that invites, like, hey, would it help you, like, maybe to our spouse, like, if you'd like to take a little break or a walk, or let me, let me take care of this? Just offering that to someone that you can is offering strong emotions. And I think for a lot of us, what I've had to learn is not to be afraid of other people's strong emotions because in my upbringing, strong emotions often meant something scary. And I was never really trained how to deal with scary situations. So it was just kind of like, well, let's try to shut that down so that none of us have to feel afraid of your strong emotions. And I've had to kind of relearn, like, you don't have to be afraid of that because sometimes it is in the person having the freedom to express express it, that we all work through it and get to a better place. But if I'm the one like trying to push it all down, like, oh, I don't feel that, then it actually just gets worse over time. So I think that's been a journey in my life, and maybe for many listening, it— we're not going to be very effective in co-regulating because we can't regulate ourselves because we're afraid of it. So if that's you, that's why we go to counseling, that's why we need groups, that's why we need to go to someone else. Like, man, my teenage kids started to get really amped up, and I immediately was amped up How do I stay calm and present in that moment? That's a big learning curve for a lot of us.

Well, Heather, what I heard you describing was like an art of reflective listening.

Mm-hmm.

And it just makes me think of like when we're dysregulated, whether that's we're low and sad and depressed or we're angry or out of our window of tolerance, you know, in a big way, it's almost like we lose sight of ourselves.

Mm-hmm.

Like we can't see ourselves very clearly. And what I heard and just kind of imagined in my mind as you were speaking is almost we as a co-regulator— if we are regulated, we can co-regulate. We become like a mirror, and we get to show somebody, hey, this is what you're feeling, and we validate that and we name it. And then we either just name it, and that's helpful, and they begin to calm down, or we say like, you know, is there anything— is there anything I can do to help? And not to take on the responsibility, but to offer, right, in humility and service to the other, to say, hey, can I help you right now? And we just become the mirror to say, is this Is this what you're— because again, just that felt experience of being lost in anger or lost in sadness, to say, I think this is where you are, is that accurate? And they say, ah, like, I'm seen, I'm heard. And even that experience can bring them back into a window of tolerance. And then you can help them because there's probably real things happening, right? Like, we need to take some steps here because these emotions are hopefully putting us in motion to do something that we might need to do in our lives. Life. Anyways, that was just the imagery I got, is like getting to be like a helpful mirror. Is this where you are? And bringing them back into a window of tolerance.

Yeah. And I think also being mindful of who it is that you're trying to co-regulate with, because sometimes I know, um, and just temperament styles play a role, but a lot of times with women, they like face-to-face communication. Men like side-by-side communication. And So just making sure that, you know, like even with your sons or something, you might find that talking about hard emotions is easier when you're shooting baskets or, you know, just something like that, just because it seems like boys need more of that activity to go along with it, whereas girls, I think, you know, are more of like, "Let's just get down into it." And yeah.

That's so insightful.

Yeah, good stuff. Heather, I have loved this whole conversation. I think everyone's gonna get a lot from it. I know you're a reader, so are there any books— if someone's like, what, where could I go to learn more about emotional resilience and health and stability— anything you'd recommend there? And then just any final thoughts that you'd like to leave listeners with today?

Yeah, so a couple books that are the top of my list is Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. And there's a lot of variations about that, you know, emotional intelligence at the workplace and in family and with kids. And so there's a lot out and then "The Body Keeps the Score" is really good when it comes to emotional awareness. At that recent conference, there was a young woman, she came up to me and she said, 'cause we talked a little bit about emotional health, and she said, "What is, how do you start to feel emotion?" And I was like, "What?" And she said, "Well, I don't feel any emotion, I don't think, and so, how would I start to do that?" And so, one of the things I recommended I said that, okay, if you have a group of friends that you do things with and they know of a really funny movie to watch, watch that with them and see if you laugh when they laugh. You know, something like that. Because I think there are reasons why people don't feel emotion. And then I also recommended that movie Inside Out because that one by far has, I mean, it's just so much emotional awareness that goes into that. And I said, watch that again with your friends and see if you laugh when they laugh, or when you feel sad when they feel sad. And I said, "And that's the start." And then, I gave her my card. And so, because it's real, you know, it's real that people don't necessarily know, "How do I start to even explore my emotional health?" Or, "How do I know that I'm actually feeling what I'm supposed to be feeling?" And I think that that was the indication I got from her. And so, So, yeah, I would just say whatever works for you, whether it's a book or a movie or talk with your friends, you know, safe friends that you can talk about emotional health. You know, the little emoji chart that you can get and put on your—

The feelings wheel.

Yeah, any of those kind of things. Just pick one thing and start somewhere because it is a lifelong lesson to obtain emotional health, you know? Just like jump in.

The biggest thing from that story for me is ask for help.

Yeah.

How beautiful that she was willing to ask for help.

Yeah.

How do I do this? Don't be afraid to ask for help.

I think my last thought would be to say it's, I think it's kind of like learning to speak a language. If we're not real common or familiar with emotions, it, it's like learning a new language. And that takes time, takes repetition, and often being around other people who speak that language. And so if you're saying, I'd, boy, I'd really like to grow in this emotional awareness, give yourself grace and be patient and work at at it and look to get close to people that you feel understand this part of life well. And I think you'll learn to speak that language. So, uh, Heather, an amazing conversation. Thank you for who you are and what you do and bringing such insights into this area that for many people, they realize in recovery especially, like, I'm not very in tune with my emotions. I know I feel things, but I don't know what to do with them. And I think you've given people a world, uh, of, of thought and direction to begin processing those in a healthy Anyway, great.

Yeah, this was fun.

Yeah, well, uh, thank you, our listeners. And if you're a fan of this content, please write us a review, subscribe, share it with somebody, give us a like. All of these are ways that more people will find this life-giving content. And if you want more information on Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.