Building Trust For the Long Haul | Ep. 464

Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. And whether today is your first day in recovery or your 10,000, we hope that these are conversations that will encourage, Bless and guide you in your journey towards health and recovery. Today is episode 464, and here joining me as my co-host for one final time in this great series is my co-host Rebecca Vandemeer. Hey, Rebecca, welcome back.

Thank you. It's been an honor. And as we wrap this up, this series, I'm just— thank you for having me.

Yeah. Hey, it's been fun having you on, and I love what we've been doing, giving different staff opportunities to sit in that seat. And I've really enjoyed getting to do this with you, and, and I think you know, to come back to where we were the first episode, I mentioned to our audience that you do this for a living, so to speak. You and your husband Bob are on our clinical team, and you're working with couples all the time, and you see them take those steps of individual recovery, and then they get to the marriage of like, how do we do new marriage? Because we don't just want more of the same. We're not just trying to get rid of a bad behavior and then go to more of the same. We really want to build something new and better. And I, I hope this series has been part of that for a lot of couples.

Yeah, I truly hope so. And, you know, with most of our clients that we worked with, oftentimes we ask them, would you like to go back to the marriage the way it was? Would you like to have the— go back to what the relationship was before discovery? And it's always across the board, 100% no. And so I hope that this series is part of that rebuilding, reconstructing of the foundation and of the relational piece of recovery. And so I truly, I truly trust and hope that you all can feel and get all the benefit from this series.

Well, and that's encouraging because I think some of us in our addiction have felt like, you know, if I could just have this marriage without the pain I'm causing, that would be good enough. And to hear that it can be better, it can actually grow and be something new and different, is, is worth striving for. It's worth shooting for. Yeah. Today we're wrapping up part 5 out of 5 in Couples Recovery on how do we build trust for the long haul. And we could think of no one better to provide insights into that than really our lead clinical team here at Pure Desire, Tyler and Sherry Chinson. And they had a lot to say about how to build trust, not just in the moment of recovery or that initial season, but how do we create it for the long haul? What, what can listeners expect to gain today?

Yeah, you guys will— we can expect to get a lot of great practical tools, practical reminders of what it looks like to rebuild and maintain trust. And knowing that also it's not a quick thing. It takes time and effort, and you will hear a lot of that today, but be ready. But it's all about just that consistency and the commitment and the community and communication, as you will hear. It's about work, but it's so, so worth it.

Yeah. And Tyler and Sherry are always so, you know, they're steady, they're calm, they're wise. Uh, great, great insights here. So a little bit about them before we jump in. Oh, and also want to mention, throughout this series we've been offering a special that if you and your spouse are looking for a tool to help connect around, to work on rebuilding, uh, elements of your marriage, we have a tool here at Pure Desire called Connected. It is a couple's workbook intended for both of you to have a workbook and then come together and share your answers as you walk through some really critical tools. So Connected Connected: Building a Bridge to Intimacy. Right now during this podcast series, it's available 2 for 1. So get 2 for the price of 1. You can find the code for that in the show notes and then at our store, enter the code and you can get 2 for the price of 1. And it could be a tool that you and your spouse work through in rebuilding intimacy in the marriage.

It's a great resource.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So a bit about Tyler and Sheri. Tyler is the clinical director at Pure Desire Ministries. He is a certified sex addiction therapist through ITAP, as well as a licensed marriage and family therapist. Tyler has a master's degree in marriage and family therapy from George Fox University and is one of the contributing authors to the workbook Connected. Sheri, his wife, is a pastoral sex addiction professional also through ITAP and has been part of the Pure Desire team since 2011. She was a special education teacher at a high school for many, many years and has experience in performing arts and ministry. Sheri is a contributing author also to our workbook Unraveled Managing Love, Sex, and Relationships. And so here now is part 5 of 5 in our Couples Recovery Series with Tyler and Sheri Chinson, Building Trust for the Long Haul. Tyler and Sheri Chinson, welcome back to the Pure Desire Podcast.

Nick, it's always great to be here. Thank you.

Yes, some frequent guests. You, you probably need no introduction. If, if people, you know, need an introduction, they could go watch the, what, half a dozen other podcasts that we've had you on. Uh, we love having you on the team and getting to your wisdom. So we're, we're going to jump into this final episode on couples recovery, and really looking at how we build trust for the long haul. And I think the heart of this was this understanding that even after a sustained season of sobriety and growth, a couple may struggle to build lasting trust. There's that fear of like, is the other shoe gonna drop? You know, can I really trust them long term? So how can couples build lasting trust in their marriage after betrayal has taken place?

Sherry, do you have thoughts?

Yeah, well, I mean, kind of the obvious answer, I guess, is it's going to take time, um, especially for that betrayed spouse. She, she just kind of had a whole lot dumped on her, and so she's got a lot to process. So things may trigger her, and she may need to, uh, just have a lot more time than one may think.

Yeah, the couple is experiencing a new normal, and it's understandable when we may consider life and relationship from the old normal, and therefore that new normal, there may be some dissonance there. They might not feel completely settled, and that feeling of the other shoe about to drop, that's a trauma response for sure. And it takes time to work through and beyond that reactivity. Totally understandable.

And she's continuing to look for the change, not just listen to the words.

Yeah, I think that's what I recognized in our marriage. And actually, this phrase came from what I would hear from my wife of, yeah, I know you're doing good, I'm grateful for where we are, but I'm afraid the other shoe is going to drop. Because, because we'd had those series even in my addictive cycle that I could go an extended period of time without relapse and then there'd be another one. And so that was for fear of like, is this just a longer time than the other ones, but it's gonna be the same old pattern. And for me as the struggler, the one that had been the betrayer, it underscored why it was so important that I continue, just like you said, Sherri, I continue in those actions and behaviors that showed I was gonna have integrity in how I talked, where I showed up, that I was honoring my word and my boundaries. That all of that were like little bricks being built back into that house of trust. And it was going to take time, but I needed to keep building those bricks back in one piece at a time.

Right. And even as the betrayed spouse, right, in addition to that, while you're doing that as the betrayer or a struggler, to learn or relearn how to trust ourselves, right? Like how to be authentic, how to stay true to ourself, to our intuition, relearning or learning for the first time. Maybe for some of us, I know that was my case. I, I, I had to learn. I did not, I realized that I've never really fully developed, uh, a true authentic self, right? And so doing that, that focusing on, I will continue to figure out how to be authentic to self so that as I choose to continue to trust or move towards trust, I know that I will have the tools and that I will be at a place to be okay regardless of what happens, right?

Yeah.

So, you know, and, and speaking of that, of, of taking steps towards rebuilding the trust, um, sometimes one of the, the spouse may, may do something, maybe even unintentionally, to, um, shipwreck the trust that they have been building and, or even they've been working so hard, right, to, to build. So how, how do you avoid this, these pitfalls? What do you, what do you guys think?

Yeah, it's not uncommon that we see that where an individual may look beyond the little things that help instill trust in the relationship. So I would say inconsistencies can be a key to shipwrecking the progress. And so the safety action plan, a reaction plan, are really important to agree upon and to adhere to in the big things and the small things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's consistency in those little things that might not seem very important maybe to the betrayer, but are extremely important to the betrayed spouse. You know, if you say you're going to be leaving work at 5:30 and we start slipping, and, well, I'm not going to leave until 5:40, but I don't really think I need to let her know. And you know, that, that 10 minutes difference can make a whole lot of difference in that betrayed spouse's spirit.

Yeah, so, so true. Well, these become opportunities sometimes for the, the addict or the struggler to understand why they've developed some of that protective personality. You know, I found, uh, ways in which even in recovery there would be temptations to like make myself look better, or to, you know, I didn't want my wife to be upset, so I'd kind of shade the truth. And it's like, wait a minute, I'm, I'm doing what I've always done, and now it's not in an area of sexuality, but it's in these other areas. But it's coming from that same root of I I want to look good to be accepted. I want you to like me, so I'll shade the truth so you like me. And those were important things to realize, that even if it wasn't in the area of sexuality, viewing porn, it was tied to it for my spouse. And I think that's a pitfall that I see people get into, is they think, well, as long as I avoid that thing, whatever the behavior was that we're changing, right? Well, it's not porn or it's not an affair. It's not that. That that's really what's important. And yes, we do need to avoid that thing, but that's not the only thing. And if that's our only measurement of you're getting my spouse to trust me, we're probably going to fall far short of what we're aiming for. And so it's, it's being a person of integrity, being someone of authenticity, being above board on everything. That's what rebuilds the trust. And I think, frankly, sometimes we get so focused on stopping the really bad behavior, we maybe miss all these other areas that are a part of recovery as well.

Great point. The analogy I like to draw is in all things, it's important to walk in the light, to be known, to be authentic, to share. If I'm going to lunch, I'm going to share that I'm going to lunch. Mm-hmm. Sharon and I had mentioned earlier today, I'm not sure there's been any action like a lunch or dinner or meeting up with a friend that I haven't discussed with her first.

Mm-hmm.

And we're doing life together in that. So we don't let that small, those small things slip.

Yeah.

And where she's questioning.

Absolutely.

And it's not a matter of, you know, being checked up on or having to, Tyler having to ask permission or any of that kind of thing. I'm not being his mommy or his cup.

Right.

But it's just that idea of it's, it's being transparent. It's being known. It's informing each other of what's going on in our lives.

Yeah, that truly, truly brings that sense of togetherness, right? We're in this together. It's not just about me, but it's about us. And in that transparency, you're expressing that it's us. It's not just me.

Yeah, the setting expectations. I think it's critical. Oftentimes when a couple do not express their expectations, that expectation is not met. It's super important to talk about expectations.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah, I was thinking about what you said, Sherry, that that doesn't mean constantly checking up on someone or that kind of like, I have to be on top of you all times to know where you're at. But that transparency, it just becomes a way of life. Michelle and I, my wife, we use Life360 to track where our kids are at, which also means we can use it to find where our spouse is at. But I've said, if you have to check Life360 to see where I am, I've probably already missed the boat because that means I haven't communicated to you a plan that I have. Even if it's like you said, Sheri, on the way home, I'm planning to stop and pick up something at a store that I need for the lawnmower. That should be part of my routine of just, hey, you know, I'll probably be 20 minutes late tonight because I'm stopping for this part. And if I have not been thoughtful to communicate ahead of time, I'm already veering into unhealthy behaviors, even if I'm not intending to be secretive at all. But it's just that I don't want to create that feeling for my wife that I don't know where my husband is. I've got to check Life360 because he didn't tell me. We're already getting off course for what I want to do.

Yeah, absolutely. An ambiguous situation. Is a trigger, and rightfully so.

So on the flip side, you've worked with many couples, and I'm guessing seen those that are thriving after a year or two. You can just see like trust is growing, they, they really have rebuilt some foundations there. What would you say are common elements when you see that a couple is getting it right?

I'll say the individual who has betrayed her— usually it's her— and the relationship is taking the lead in recovery, is being proactive in recovery, is following up and supporting his word. If he gives his word, yes, he supports his word, he follows up. So I would say through the, the betrayer, if you will, taking the leadership in recovery. Has to take the initiative. And when he is able to do that and the wife begins to see new behavior and he's putting her needs before his own—

yeah, big deal.

If he's stepping up in the home, that's a big deal. He's caring well for the kids, that's a big deal. He's present. Yeah, that helps um, encourage both parties to continue to thrive because they both feel supported.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's such a big deal for the betrayed spouses I work with, is that sense of I'm not the one who has to keep asking. You know, I'm not the one who has to— if we're going to do a Thanos communication tool, if we're going to do something like that, I don't have to be the one who always initiates it. There's just power in the betrayed spouse feeling supported and feeling like she is— usually she is being pursued in that way, that he wants to come close to me. You know, we keep bringing up the word transparency, and I think that's a really important word. Transparency is different than honesty. Honesty is what we want too, yes, but transparency is just— it's an openness. It's a willingness to be seen from all angles without that fear of anything being hidden. That's an important concept, I think.

Yeah, if I could add one thing, a lot of men never acquired the language of intimacy, and through the process they can learn that language of intimacy. And as they do so, and the couple just reaches a new level where he's able to express his thoughts, feelings, and emotions and openly share those things. It's, it's new territory for a lot of people, but if they can arrive there, hey, we can thrive in this. We're communicating well.

Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a process that, as we all have probably said so many times, but it takes time, right? I mean, it's one of those things that, um, it took a fragment of a, of a portion of time to break the trust that was there, and it takes so much more longer to rebuild that trust. It's a lot of work.

Work.

It takes both parties to be fully committed.

Um, yeah, I was thinking that the reality is we're not always going to be perfect. There, there are going to be breaches of trust even in a healthy marriage, of like, oh, I— there was an uncommunicated expectation, there was a lack of openness, and I, I missed an opportunity. And that doesn't mean it's directly related to going back to the old pattern. It may just mean there was a human element of, boy, I missed the ball here. And in those moments, I think couples that get it right, there's humility, not defensiveness.

Yeah.

Defensiveness looks like, well, why are you checking up on me? Or why do you always need to know? Or why are you up? You know, if that's how we're responding, like that's going to diminish trust. But if there's a humility of like, oh, I appreciate you sharing that. And I acknowledge I should have let you know ahead of time this was happening, or I was too busy and I didn't take the time to connect with you on this plan and that hurt you. I'm so, you know, humility goes a long ways when we do experience like, hey, this didn't go the way I thought it was going to. And then I think with that is, I see it's when couples have a regular pattern of checking in. You know, Sherry, you mentioned FANOS, and that's an emotional inventory scale, or couples that are having a regular date night or having a couple's devotional time. But when there's at least within the week a rhythm of we check in with one another proactively, back to another one of your words, Tyler, to say, how are we doing? How's our trust? Is there anywhere that we need to discuss something? And keeping that short account to not get to where like, Well, it's been 4 months and this thing they're doing is really bothering me and we've never really talked about it and now it gets to the boiling point. That doesn't help any of us. So I think those regular just check-ins, how are we, how are you, what could I work on, that helps couples thrive.

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like also in that process, it's not uncommon for maybe the, the betrayer to feel like he's Hey, he's been putting in the work, he's been working hard to rebuild that trust, and yet they have a feeling that their spouse, uh, is not giving them as much trust that they maybe should be given because they've been working hard. Um, so what in those scenarios, uh, situations, what would you suggest?

Yeah.

Uh, I, I would first state that, the recovery process, the cadence or the timing or the time needed could be very different for the, for the parties. Uh, she may not be on his same time frame.

Absolutely.

And so to be patient, as Nick mentioned, humble in that setting, in helping her experience trust again in the relationship.

And I think part of it too, uh, maybe that she has not yet learned to fully trust herself and her own needs and identify those own needs.

Good. Yeah.

Um, you know, to, to recognize what the triggers are in her. And we talk sometimes about, you know, kind of a second level of healing for for the men that they go through. I think there's also that second level of healing for the betrayer, betrayed spouse. I mean, she, she can get through this initial sort of triage piece, but there's a lot of healing for her left to do after that initial phase. She's got to learn to trust herself as well as to learn to trust him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think of it a little bit like a physical ailment. If, you know, if I have a cold that hangs on much longer than a cold should, it doesn't help me if you say, "Well, just get over it. Just get better." It's like, "Yeah, I'm trying." That's not helpful. What is helpful is to go to the doctor, to go to an expert and get into the why am I not getting better? What are the underlying causes? I might need some medicine. I might need some sort of therapy. And if I'm not aware of what's going on, it won't help me to just try harder to fix it. And I think in the relationship, if that spouse feels like, man, I'm doing great work, just— you should just trust me. That's like saying, just get better. Like, that's not going to help. But having a curiosity of why might they be stuck and asking good questions of, are there things I'm still doing that create fear for you? Or is this a matter of this was a lot of pain and it's going to take time and I just need patience? Or, or is it, uh, other contributing factors that maybe haven't been brought up enough? Or It could be that that betrayed spouse has asked you to go to counseling with them or to engage in some kind of couples recovery, and you've been too busy or hesitant, you know, and then you expect trust without putting in the work, you know. So it's a whole arena where I think if we're the, the spouse that's recovering and thinking we're doing great and, hey, I haven't relapsed in a long time, just trust me, it's much more beneficial to try to come alongside your spouse and just say, hey, what, what are you feeling? What's going on here? And to be compassionate to where they're at versus creating that pressure, well, just get better already. Because my guess is they'd like to be better too. They don't want to stay in a place where they feel lack of trust, fear. So if you can find what might be underlying causes and then as a couple address those together, that could lead perhaps to some new growth.

That's great.

And maintaining that open communication, constant open communication, objectively curious goes a long way.

Yeah, yeah. I know in our relationship it was like, hey, I was counting the, you know, season of sobriety. It's been 6 months. I've had no relapses. Why don't you trust me? And my wife could list like, well, I'm not seeing consistency here. I don't think you've addressed that. Like, you know, and part of me, I was like, but just be happy about that other part. Like, to be holistic in my recovery was a mindset shift that I had to embrace. Like, okay, I'm not just trying to avoid relapse. I need to become an honorable man of integrity that my wife sees through and through is trustworthy.

Absolutely.

You know, what I hear from a lot of betrayed spouses is it's— it— there is that time of, yeah, of course we don't want relapse to happen, right? But it's also about the lying, you know, or those little white lies or those, those little inconsistencies. Those are the things that can really harm that healing process for the betrayed spouse. It's got, it's got to be consistency in all things, Nick, like you said.

Yeah. So on the flip side, there may be a spouse that is working really hard to rebuild trust, you know, maybe feels like they're growing, like, okay, I'm going to trust again, and they've opened up their heart, and that's a very risky process. But they watch their struggling or addicted spouse maybe continue to relapse or to hide little things, and then they catch them in a lie about money or, you know, time from work, whatever it is. And it can feel like, ah, here we go again. And so my question would be, you know, in that scenario, do they go back to ground zero on rebuilding trust? Or how, even with those speed bumps along the way, could they build off of previous growth even when there is a new rupture like a relapse?

Sherri, your thought?

You know, I don't think it goes back to ground zero, no, because you, you've got that, um, that bedrock that you're, you're developing of trust, um, over the time. Um, but it's sure gonna shake things up, and that's why, you know, we've got to keep that, those safety ash for her, for the be trade spouse, she's got to keep that safety action plan updated. A lot of times I hear women, you know, well, yeah, I have a safety action plan, but that was like, you know, 6 months ago or a year ago when we first started this. It— that thing needs to be updated regularly. Yes, because things change, and, and the type of, um, thing that will trigger that, that betrayed response, you know, that trauma response, uh, that changes over time. And so it does need to become more of a, of a couple's plan sometimes, rather than just, you know, I'm gonna hang on to this same thing I developed at the very beginning.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would say that hopefully the couple has acquired tools from the beginning of their recovery journey to where that lapse or relapse occurred. And I would encourage them to revisit the tools.

Yeah.

Whether it be the recovery action plan, whether it be the safety action plan, whether it be the crash site analysis. With the safety action plan, there's consequences there. Well, let's revisit that. And for a lot of guys, I mean, we don't want to shame others, but sometimes it requires a little bit of sting to get their attention. Let's talk about consequences now. Yeah, and she is hurting, and he, he may need some motivation, relational motivation. And also, I would encourage, stay connected with your support group.

Yeah.

And for maintain accountability for him. There's a reason he slipped. Let's, let's unpack that. Let's examine that, and let's equip you for a new response if there is another, a next time.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a relapse in that case is it's just an opportunity to regain better understanding about self, right? And, and better understanding about how you as the betrayer, uh, got to that place. What, where did you get comfortable? Where did you drop the guards? Um, and then for the, for the betrayed spouse, the same, same question, right? It's the question about, okay, where did I personally personally get comfortable? Uh, where did I maybe stop, uh, taking— like, making sure that we are focusing on our health, our holistic health, that we are being intentional about our day-to-day, our relational dynamic and whatnot? And so if anything, it's just— it's a good opportunity to have better understanding and not necessarily go back to ground zero.

Yeah, it can certainly be painful, but we have said that more can be learned from a relapse than almost anything else because it does reignite, like, okay, what, what have we missed that maybe isn't working? And for that struggling spouse, you know, I've said to them, like, this is an opportunity for you to build trust more than you think, because more often than not, the spouse doesn't expect perfection. Like, they understand you're a human. And so if you respond, though, to a mistake with humility, with saying, this was the plan we put in place and I'm going to follow it, I'm not going to be like, try to fight back and now change it now that it's actually like, I'm going to follow I'm gonna stay humble. I'm gonna seek reparation in the right ways. Like, that actually, even if there was a relapse, can do more to build trust than if there was no relapse at all. And we're not trying to say like, hey, go relapse and build trust. No, it's hard. It's painful. But it can be the ground of new growth and new fruit. And so if we're open to that, and so much of it, if I'm honest, is the heart and the response of the struggler, of the one who's relapsed. If you can stay open to it and walk it with integrity, it will, do more for you than you would expect. And so I think just, yeah, yeah, being open to that and growing even after a mistake has been made.

You know, there's a trust that gets broken because of a relapse or because of maybe lack of transparency in related to recovery. But then there's also that trust that is broken that is not necessarily directly related to the addiction. And so So when that happens, then I pose the question to you guys, why is it so important, uh, to work to build trust in all the areas of our marriage? Uh, not just the areas directly related to the addiction, uh, but everything else, you know, like even like how we use our phone or little thing, little but big things like that. Um, why is it so important?

Yeah, I'll loop back around to the concept of consistency. In all areas, just not this area that's been incredibly damaging. Yeah, but it's everything. A lot of folks who show up at PD, alcohol is part of that profile that promotes slippage. And so that's an area that we often say during this process that goes on the shelf or remains on the shelf. And so that's, that's just one area, but consistency is the key in all areas of life, uh, not just the addiction but the relationship, um, their professional life, just their integrity. That's what we're talking about, is walking out integrity and honor in one's life.

Mhm. And it, it goes back to that, you know, that idea of transparency. Being able to be open and really doing life together. Um, it's sort of that different concept of it's not my stuff, your stuff. We really are building that foundation together of what does this new season, this new normal look like for us.

Yeah.

Um, and it's really important that that we're together on that and we're doing those little things, you know, not taking the phone into the bathroom when we've already talked about this, right?

Right.

Um, I use the example— it sounds silly, it really sounds silly— but, you know, for the, the spouse, the betrayed spouse, if I'm depending on my spouse to take the trash out and he doesn't it can be a really big deal for me because it is just one of those chinks in the armor, right? I, I want to, I want to see that I can trust him in all things so that I can feel safe giving him my heart.

Beautiful. Yeah, in our recovery journey, one of the things my wife communicated often that she was looking for was emotional engagement, to be not not just in the room, but to actually be present. And yes, I remember there were times I would feel, I guess I'd say, frustrated about it. It's like, man, look at all these things I'm doing good. But it was when I realized that this was a trust issue for her, that if she saw me being emotionally present, not only with her but with our kids, you know, not disengaging to the newspaper, the TV, the phone, whatever, being relational, asking, you know, showing that I was clearly present in body, mind, and spirit, that did more to build trust than simply following my boundaries. And I think for a long time I missed that because I am kind of a checklist, you know, accomplishment. And the boundaries, like, oh, haven't gone there, haven't done that, haven't checked, check, check, check, I'm doing great. But if, like, if I'm in the room only half present, then she's like, what's he thinking about? What's going on? So I think it's looking at that holistic view of life and asking our spouse at times, like, what are the behaviors, you know, not Just checking in that I'm on my way home from work, that, that's good if, if there's been trust issues there. But from a more holistic place, like, what helps you see that I'm taking recovery seriously, that I'm growing, that I'm becoming more healthy? Like, what are those things you're looking for? Because I think if, if they sit and think about it, most spouses realize they have a few areas. It's like, when I see you doing this, I have confidence that you're becoming a different person and not reverting to old addictive patterns. So those are good things to pay attention to.

It's going back to him being that man I thought he was when I married him. Oh yeah, it's going back to that.

Hmm.

Referencing, uh, Nick's statement that, you know, I may be doing great, but it's super important to check in with her. But how are you doing?

How are you?

I feel like I'm doing well. How are you? And that opens up the door of communication for her to share. This is what makes me feel safe and secure with you, and these are areas that feel like they might be a blind spot.

Yeah.

Can we work together for you to address them?

Exactly. It's you, it's, it's him, it's, it's being willing to take the risk to ask that question. Knowing that you may not get the best, the response you want to get, which then means, okay, then how, how do we work together to change this? How, how can I move towards you and you towards me?

And I think it goes back too to the value of, of having a, some pattern of check-in in your relationship where I'm able, uh, in the areas that were problematic in terms of breaking trust, that my spouse doesn't have to check up on me and say, well, are you following this boundary? Are you doing that, um, that was at the check-in where I could self-report and say, hey, here's what I'm doing to have integrity on my phone, or integrity at work, or when we're not together, here's the things I'm working on. And if there were any areas of, of slippage there, breaking a boundary, to own it proactively. Because I think that's another thing where spouses fear, like, I just have to kind of live on edge, and if something happens, when will I know, and will they tell me? And, and that's not a great place to live. So to be proactive and say, every week I'm going to just check in with you, I'm going to give you some updates And if there's something I need to own, I'm gonna own it there and hopefully in small ways. You know, I'd much rather have to own like, hey, I was casual with my phone use 'cause I've committed to not be on my phone, you know, in the bedroom. And on this day I took it in there and I was not really thinking, but after a few minutes like, oh, I'm breaking a boundary. I'd much rather have to, you know, have a conversation about something more relatively minor like that than have those occurrences build up over and over and over until I have to admit to a new relapse or a pattern of relapses. And so I think that's where you build trust in those small increments by proactively reporting on how you're doing in those areas that then your spouse doesn't have to live in the fear of what don't I know. So one trigger point, you know, a couple can be going along, we're rebuilding trust. Hey, we're doing better. This is our new normal. And then— and more often than not, I'm thinking of this in the case of the struggler or the one who's had the addictive issues— determines like, hey, I think I'm great. I'm not going to join another group or I'm kind of going to disengage. From some of our recovery work. And I'm not saying like mid-process, but I'm saying like maybe they've done a couple years of recovery and a spouse might realize in that moment that that's what they've relied on for trust more than they realized. And so my question would be like, do strugglers need to remain in a weekly group forever in order to build trust, or are there other practices that could eventually replace a weekly recovery group, uh, in terms of trust in the relationship?

This is a question that comes up frequently.

Yeah.

And what we know from research, recovery is a 3 to 5 year process. And if, if we're pressing that 3 to 5 years and beyond, there are absolutely things that the struggler can implement and engage in, in life. Mm-hmm. Uh, We're seeking a new normal and many things have improved, but this is a lifestyle. This is second order change, true heart change. And so it's not necessarily counseling for the rest of their lives or even groups, but we need to be— remain connected in community, healthy community, moving toward wholeness and the higher ground that the Lord calls us to occupy. And that's a lifelong journey.

Yeah.

And so somehow we need to remain connected. I'll share briefly, 6 years ago, as COVID was settling in, January of 2020, I realized my social circle was shrinking. And I needed those people in my life for support and care and a give and take and just loving on each other. So I reached out to 5 guys who I, I know and respect, and I said, would you be interested in meeting once a week? And they said yes. And most of those guys are still in the group 6 years later.

That's beautiful.

And it's been awesome. We check in, we walk through a resource. We're just looking to become those men that God calls us to be. And who he's designed us to be. So yes, it's, it's into the future. Do things for you and for the relationship and for the family and for your future.

And it is about those relationships, having safe relationships that you can be real with, because not everybody is safe to do that with, right? Um, we can't bare our soul to everybody we meet. We have to be very selective, especially in this field. And, you know, while that all Tyler put out there is true for the betrayer, I think it's also true for the betrayed spouse. It's still a 3 to 5 year process for us too. We've gotta, we've gotta take that responsibility for our healing. And I, I always recommend women go through Betrayal and Beyond at least twice because the first time you you, you kind of don't know where you are right at the beginning, and, and you learn so much more, you get so much more out of it the second time. Um, but even for, for those betrayed spouses, seeking those supportive relationships that can really speak life into you and, um, speak hope and encouragement.

Mhm. And people that can give you feedback and support that your spouse either can't or shouldn't, right? It's not their place depending on where you are in life. And so to honor, honor that part of yourself where you can be raw and just true to self in a safe environment of peers that love you unconditionally and that, um, can continue to bring that healing into your life. So that when you go to your spouse, that you've been able to vent, if you will, and get the love and feedback that you needed in that moment, as opposed to, you know, using your wife as the only person that you confide in or that is your only support, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, frankly, there are things that, you know, some trusted girlfriends of mine can say to me that if Tyler said them to me, I wouldn't hear them well. Yes.

Yes.

So I need I need those other voices in my life that I can process things with first. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's fair if the spouse is a barometer of our healing and trust, because if you— I would recommend to any listener, like, you shouldn't drop group if your spouse isn't supportive of it, you know. So go to them and say, like, hey, you know, I've done a couple of times through group, here's what we're working on. Are you comfortable with me disengaging from that weekly group process? And if, you know, if they're wide-eyed and they're like, oh my gosh, like, and you can tell fears come, it's like, you know what, maybe I need to stay in group as an honoring step to support the trust that we're building because it seems like we're not quite ready. And that can be a clarifying moment of, again, asking those why questions of, well, what, what are the fears that are coming up for you right now? What, what has group created a stability for us in our marriage that you're fearful I won't have if I disengage. And so maybe there are places you see like, oh, there are some really important parts of my recovery that group provides and I'm not ready to be without them yet. Or we've come up as a couple with other strategies where, like you said, Tyler, here's a group of people I am having that level of openness with. Here's how I will continue to live out my guardrails. Here's how I'm going to stay emotionally aware of where I'm at on like the faster Danger scale? And am I getting closer towards a danger zone? Like, how will those new normals continue even outside a group? And honestly, those are always my questions to a guy as I'm wrapping up group. And I'm like, hey, what are your next steps? And if he's like, I'm just done with group, I'm like, okay, what's your plan? Because this is not like a cold turkey, like, hey, I did healing, I did that in the past. We're not in an arrival mindset. This really is a journey. And I don't believe your journey needs to include a weekly Pure Desire group for the rest of your life.

Right.

But I do believe your game plan needs to include other people, honest community, healthy guardrails, uh, for the rest of your life, you know. Because there are places I've had to admit, like, the— on the three circles tool, like, this will just never be healthy for me. Certain areas that, like, that's not just a for-now thing, like, that's just for me going to be healthy living. So my spouse needs to see that I'm going to continue to follow those things. And if they don't know what that structure will look like outside a group, then you probably still need group because it creates that structure for you until you're ready to have the structure for yourself, right? You don't just— you don't just pull the structure out from under a house and think it'll be fine unless there's a different foundation that it's built on top of. So that would always be my question, like, well, what's your foundation now if it's not going to be group?

Which makes me think of, of the group of people that, you know, have been in group, maybe they're not wanting to be done with group, um, but they do find themselves feeling a little stuck and where trust is still at a low point. Um, then in those scenarios, um, what should they do?

Yeah, if, if they've done group work for several durations of the group, maybe that group's not taking them deep enough. Maybe the work is not going deep enough to get them unstuck. And so perhaps it's, it's another course of care. Yeah, another opportunity to explore at a deeper level and to peel the onion, however you want to phrase it. Yeah, it may require different type of work.

Yes. Yeah.

Perhaps it does require that step into, you know, doing an evaluation for, for some clinical counseling work. Or maybe it's, it's, you know, having those really difficult conversations between you about what has worked well, what hasn't worked well. You just maybe need to have a different shift, different people around you. Maybe a different group if you've done the same group over and over, same group of people. I think one thing too is examining that level of commitment that you are putting into the work. Are you really jumping in as much as you think you are?

Right.

True. Yeah, that's a great point. I often tell people as they're entering into a PD clinical counseling program, you'll get out of this work what you put into it. And so maybe it is, like Sheri says, an important opportunity to examine, gosh, how committed have I been to this?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

A couple things come to mind for me. I, I think we may have a mindset that says, well, when you're in early recovery, you know, you've just experienced betrayal, that's when you get counseling, but later on you shouldn't need counseling. Which I feel like if there's any place in life you feel stuck, that's a good time to say, you know what, we may need some counseling. Yes. And we've definitely had couples come that have already had a few years of recovery work, but never really engaged as a couple in counseling. And, and if you're like, man, we're really stuck in trust, or we're stuck in rebuilding intimacy, counseling, counseling is a great opportunity to get outside voices to bring some expertise into a challenging situation.

Absolutely.

Another thing that comes to mind is looking at your boundaries, because as the betrayed spouse, I think if it's been a couple of years, you've hopefully been able to articulate, here are the kinds of behaviors I need to see to rebuild trust. And if they're not following or honoring those boundaries, that explains why there's not trust, because they're not being a trustworthy person. And so that's not an issue of, well, it's, it's 2 or 3 years, we should be better. That's an issue of they're not exhibiting changed behaviors to rebuild the trust. And what I would say in a third scenario that happens once in a while is you look at your boundaries and it's like, yeah, they're doing the things to rebuild trust, but for some reason I just don't trust them. That may be a sign of deeper trauma that you're holding onto. And I'm not trying to point the finger at you to say like, well, now you're the problem. But that self-awareness to say, huh, if, if they're doing good work, if my boundaries are clear and they're being honored and I'm still really stuck in fear, that probably indicates more going on for me. And that's not a bad thing, that's just a self-revealing thing to say, oh, there may be more here for me, the way that their behaviors have tied into other things in my life— family of origin issues, caregiver issues from my childhood— that I'm being invited to unpack so that I quit maybe putting on them trust issues that actually are about my parents or something else that happened in my life. So again, that's not to say like, well, now you're the problem, but it could just be a situation that exposes, oh, there's more here for me.

Yes.

And I could actually get healthier and grow if I would be willing to address what's going on inside of me.

More opportunity for more healing to happen, right? And, and as we move further into recovery or healing, uh, the more we realize that we will need to continue working, that there will be more things that come up, and that it's just only an opportunity to heal more, to grow more, to have better self-knowledge, self-awareness. And it's, it's not fun or easy, but it's, but it's beautiful. It's a gift. It's a God-given gift.

Well, Tyler and Sheri, we so appreciate you both and the wisdom you bring, uh, your, your long-standing guidance and participation on our counseling team As we wrap up this topic today, what would be some final advice or encouragement you would give on building trust for the long haul that you might leave the audience with today?

Yeah, Sheri and I talked about this subject earlier today and four words came to the surface. And I would hope that the listeners will claim these words.

Yes.

Consistency, communication, commitment and community. Just feels like if those people are— if those processes are in alignment, um, yeah, that's, that's a good path forward.

Would you—

any thoughts from you?

Yeah, yeah. And it, you know, sometimes we really focus on that, uh, that betrayer, right? But it is so important for the betrayed spouse to also claim these things. You know, they need to feel that they are being consistent in their own work and in what they are saying they're going to do as well. Um, they need to initiate that communication when it needs to be initiated and respond to the communication when their spouse is initiating. Um, can being committed to their own path of healing and stay in their own community. It's important for both and for the marriage.

Yeah, yeah, I love that very much. Thank you for that. Um, the 4 C's sounds like the makings of a little ebook there. I'm gonna do a Post-it.

Yeah. How about for you, Rebecca? What have you seen in helping couples build trust for the long haul?

Oh man, I couldn't agree more with, uh, those 4 C's. Absolutely. Just the— it sounds simple and it is simple, but clearly, you know, going through it, the experiential side of things is a challenge. But when you really go through it, meaning if there's consistency and you're really putting forth the community, the communication side of things, you, within those two steps already, you will experience change, which then it's kind of like a little bit of the horse hope formula, right? You take a risk because you believe there's something better. And when you take that risk into a possible change and you experience that change, then you have greater hope, greater risk, uh, greater capacity to lean towards the other person. So as you do, as you follow these 4 C's, which I absolutely love, um, you're making bids for connection with the other person, with your spouse, which then And man, it's now you're a power couple. Like, and that's honestly what we tell our clients. Like, you commit to this, you do the hard work, and you will be a power couple. Like, there's no doubt about it. It's hard work, but to get to be a power couple, you have to work at it.

So yeah, you know, I was thinking about the two sides of trust, and we haven't mentioned this much in the episode, but trust is both earned earned and, and given. So in one regard, I can do a lot to earn trust, but I also have to be willing at some point to give trust. And I think, and, and the danger here of introducing new ideas in the conclusion, because I learned in college you're never supposed to do that, but one new idea: if we're the, the betraying spouse, the struggling spouse working to rebuild and earn trust, there is a question of, do you trust your spouse? Are you giving trust to them, because something I have found is often we are challenged to be a trustworthy person because we don't know how to trust people or ourselves in general. And there are some good questions to ask of like, do I trust my spouse with the money? Do I trust my spouse that if they were alone for the day that I would trust their actions and behaviors? Do I trust my spouse to be forthright with me? Because even if I am the struggling spouse, I may in other ways be treating everyone with the same lack of trust that I treat myself, because I know, well, I'm not very trustworthy and nobody is. And if I'm living a way that I don't trust anyone, it's going to be hard for me to become a trustworthy person. So that, that's another side of this to look at. If you're the struggling spouse, the one that brought addiction into the equation, how am I working on giving trust to others? Because there's something that happens there, I think, in mutuality, that as I learn to trust other people, I also see what it looks like to be a trustworthy person.

Absolutely.

And I will grow in that even as I grow in giving it away to others.

Mm-hmm.

I love that.

Great point.

Yeah, that's great.

Well, Tyler and Sheri, you've helped us see as we wrap up that rebuilding trust isn't a single milestone or an event, that it is an ongoing journey that includes postures of honesty, consistency, and humility towards our mistakes. But it's encouraging to know that it can happen. it may take time, it may take effort, it takes that open communication as you brought up, but we can rebuild trust that is much greater and stronger than what we had before discovery and before betrayal. So thanks for the, the way that you live this out on our team. You help so many couples. It's been great to have this conversation with you today.

Always good to be here. Thanks so much for the invite, Nick, Rebecca. It's a privilege. Thank you.

Thank you both so much.

Yes. And if you're a fan of this content, we would love it if you would write us a review, subscribe, share it with somebody else. These are ways that other people might find life-giving content at a time when they need it most. And if you would like more information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at PureDesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.