In this conversational segment, Nick Stumbo asks how a partner who has betrayed, addicted, or otherwise struggled can empathically support the hurt spouse when the latter remains in pain. Speaker B, a therapist, outlines a three‑phase trauma recovery model and proposes concrete exercises: a mantra to stay present, writing a "venomous" letter to the compulsive behavior, and the "Vesuvius" exercise where the betrayed partner vents intensely while the betrayer holds the space. These practices aim to validate the trauma, release anger and grief, and restore the betrayed partner’s executive functioning. The dialogue also highlights the importance of brain‑based understanding of trauma, the role of color and word assignments to emotions, and how the emotional work can translate into post‑traumatic growth—greater assertiveness and clearer communication in daily life. Nick shares his personal experience using a mantra to tolerate his wife’s anger without trying to fix it, illustrating how holding space rather than intervening can lead to productive conversations after the pressure subsides.
Chapters
So what I want to ask about is, what would you say to that addict or struggler or the betrayer when they feel like, well, things are better, we should be over that, but they feel like their spouse is still stuck? How do they show empathy, maybe especially at a time they don't understand why there's still so much pain for that betrayed spouse?
Yeah, and What I would say, because I am Irkam and I do believe in these 3 phases, is I would say, you are working on your empathy and I really want to commend you on that. Would you be willing to take more of a challenge and a risk and join your wife and myself to do some anger exercises? To do some grief work so that we can create a safe place for them. We create a safe place for him to hold her anger, contain her pain. And then we have lots of different vehicles for dealing with that anger. We spray him with Teflon. We say, what's your mantra? Well, my mantra is I won't give my past the power to make me feel inadequate, or She is raging about who I was before. She's not really raging about who I am today. Some mantra that reminds them to stay in the present. And then I would have her write a venomous letter to the compulsivity, to the affair, to the struggling behavior of the struggler. Not him, not him, but the behaviors. Or I would have my couples do something I call a Vesuvius, where he holds her pain while she gets 3 to 5 minutes to spew like Mount Vesuvius about everything.
Okay.
And then after that's done, he's witnessed it and he has to share why it was powerful. And there is some sort of release and relief that occurs. And, you know, it's not like it lasts forever, but it's a pressure cooker that's had the cap taken off.
Right.
And when, when women deal with their anger, which also includes grief, their executive functioning is back online and they can make better decisions and be able to trust again. Now, I want to ask you to Are those brains behind you? Are those MRIs of brains?
I don't know about MRIs. They are just, yes, brain diagrams and artwork.
Okay, because part of our work together as professionals is to work with the relationship and heal that based on feelings, communication, needs, triggers. But we also have to be brain scientists, and we have to know that a trauma response is begging for validation that that trauma really occurred and that pain existed. So when they're in Phase 2 and they're getting to do a narrative about— we do one that's the civil letter, where you're just telling the person how devastated you were and the impact of it. And then we do the venomous letter, and that is a letter that doesn't have to be politically correct. And then we do the Vesuvius, and we do volume work. And that is so validating that what happens is the women that we work with, whether it's amongst the group or it's in the couple session, they go, "I just feel like I was heard. I feel like My partner understands. And I say at that point, I say, okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to write about how you felt today. I want you to give it a color. I want you to give it one word in addition to the writing.
Mm-hmm.
You know, what is that word you feel right now? Mm-hmm. I feel determined. I feel strong. I feel persistent. I feel— and so they give you a word, and then I ask them, to measure how they're going to show up in the world. I say, you know what, this week is going to be paramount for you. You're going to see yourself differently, you're going to feel different, and you're going to use that experience of releasing all those emotions to go out in that world and be different.
Wow.
Maybe you won't let somebody walk on you. Maybe you assert yourself with your son's teacher. And that doesn't mean that you get aggressive, but that means you're clear and direct about what you need and want for your son. But you're going to like some of the reframe that occurs and some of the, what I call, post-traumatic growth strengths that occur as a result of doing this hard, tumultuous, emotional work.
Isn't it amazing just how powerful it is to to make room and give permission for all those emotions and feelings to come out and creating even that space to say, hey, come out, let it all out. It is important that you are able to express and let that flow outwardly so that you can even reflect back, grow from it. And then your spouse, again, to your point, gets to actually hear and begin developing some of that, that empathy. I love how beautiful that is and just how empowering. How powerful it is.
Yeah, and I just wanted to speak too to the value of what you called that mantra, because when my wife would have kind of those— and we didn't call it a Vesuvius moment, but I would tell, could tell when they were happening— it's like, wow, I'm getting a lot of anger. And there was a part of me that wanted to come in and fix the anger, and I had to just stop it. And I would give it this mantra. I'd say, I created this anger in her. I need to help let her get it out. And as long as— because I didn't know how much anger was in there. It had been 10 years in our marriage. Like, there was a whole lot, and that's fair. Even if I thought some of the things she was saying weren't entirely fair, when I could see it as, hey, this is, this is her anger and I need to be willing to let her get it out. That's part of my role here. Just hold that. That mantra would be going through my head. Even if she said, don't fix it, let her get it out. And it helped me just relax and go, okay, we're going to make our way through this. And when that pressure would subside, there were often really fruitful conversations on the other side.
Right.
But if I jumped in and started, well, I don't feel that way, or stop, you know, if I tried to, you know, hold that all down, it would just get worse.
