Establishing Strong Guardrails | Ep. 475
In this episode of the Pure Desire podcast, host Nick Stumbo welcomes longtime guest Brent Breining, a Pure Desire clinician and former naval aviator, to discuss the concept of “guardrails” in the recovery from sexual addiction. The conversation defines guardrails as self‑imposed boundaries that keep a person from slipping into relapse, using the Pacific Coast Highway metaphor to illustrate how a physical barrier prevents a car from falling off a cliff. Biblical foundations are explored, citing Proverbs 3:11‑12, 1 Corinthians 6:18, and Matthew 5:29‑30 to show that God’s discipline is protective, not punitive. The hosts explain why willpower alone is insufficient, describing the addiction cycle (pre‑occupation, rituals, compulsivity, despair) and emphasizing the need for proactive, intentional limits. Practical frameworks are presented: the three‑circle model (relapse, triggered, self‑care circles) with the HALT‑BS acronym (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, Bored, Sick); a six‑step “escape plan” that moves from immediate self‑talk to deep breathing, accountability contact, environment change, and a “nuclear option” of calling a leader or spouse. Brent shares personal anecdotes from his naval career and group work to illustrate buffer zones and hard guardrails such as removing smartphones, apps, or laptops. The episode also addresses the betrayed spouse’s perspective, outlining safety (emotional, relational) versus control, how to set boundaries, and the AVR (Acknowledge‑Validate‑Reassure) technique. Ownership of guardrails is linked to true repentance, with the hosts urging believers to surrender control, share their guardrails with trusted others, and let community enforce them. The discussion concludes with a roundup of Pure Desire resources (7 Pillars of Freedom, Unraveled, Betrayal and Beyond groups), recommended books, and a promotional note for the “Hope, Healing, and Freedom” book. Throughout, the tone is conversational, supportive, and biblically grounded, aiming to equip listeners with concrete, faith‑aligned tools for lasting recovery.
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Brent Breining, welcome back to the podcast.
Yeah, it's been a while. Glad to be here.
Yeah, grateful to have you on again and grateful for the work that you do as a Pure Desire clinician. And we are looking forward to gleaning from your wisdom and experience and skill today. So let's dive in. We're talking about guardrails. So first off, what do we mean? Would you define what we mean by guardrails? And how do guardrails reflect God's heart for protection and wisdom, as seen in books like Proverbs, rather than punishment or restriction?
Yeah, guardrails are really essential, I think, to the recovery process, either early on for people just getting started or those who have been in it for a while, either in groups or counseling. It's something that we fold into our practices. And really, you know, if we just kind of look at what a guardrail is, it's simply a boundary that we self-impose to try to regulate our behaviors, to keep from going into bad behaviors or unwanted behaviors. I like to use a lot of visuals, so I kind of think of the Pacific Coast Highway. If anyone can think of that image of the 2-lane road going across, you You know, the top of the cliff and you're looking down, you know, several hundred feet into the Pacific Ocean. And, you know, if you go off that edge there, you would be falling quite a bit. So there's a guardrail up there to keep the cars from going over the edge. And that's kind of what we're talking about here is putting limits on what we see, what we do to try to keep us from going off the edge, which would be considered what we call a relapse. There's a couple, you know, quotes you reference, Proverbs, you know, 3:11-12. My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline. Do not resent his rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those he loves as a father the son he delights in. And a lot of times we think of God, you know, restricting our behaviors, or he has these rules that we're to follow. And Sometimes we can kind of look at that as being something that's trying to, you know, keep us from having a good time or to have fun or squash our fun. And really what the Word is telling us is that God is concerned about us, right? And He realizes if we break through these guardrails, that the results are not going to be good. We're going to hurt ourselves or other people that we care about. So that's kind of the concept, you know, as I, I look at it.
Yeah, Brett, I think that's so good. And what I love about, especially like when we talk about the 3 circles and the guardrails and stuff, as, as you go through the healing process, your guardrails change. As you get healthier, you're implementing different types of guardrails. And I love the visual of the Pacific Coast Highway. That's my wife. We love taking that and going down that. And there's different levels of guardrails along the whole way. Some are more, you know, prominent than others, and just depending on the risk or whatever. But I love that as we go through the healing process, as I get better and better, I'm starting to implement different types of guardrails for where I'm at in my walk.
Yeah.
And which is encouraging because that just shows the level of growth. And then, but it also shows, it's like if you're bumping up and it's like, oh wait, maybe I need to go back down to this one because I'm really kind of edging on that one. So.
Yeah, I think as we grow, we can become more self-aware of what are those areas where we need guardrails. And I know for me early on in this recovery journey, you know, I'd had 10 years of relapsing into pornography and promising God, myself, and my wife I was never gonna do it again. And I think I just believed that integrity meant I could be right on that cliff of wanting to go back to porn or whatever, and I would walk away from it. But I was really blind to That by the time I was right on that cliff, there were already things I was doing, wasting time, you know, scrolling social media, watching TV alone, isolating, that were really preconditions that were setting me up to fall into that same old pattern. And, and when I began to see that, you know, hear other members of a group talk about what their guardrails were and, and what they did to just stay in a safe zone, it really started to click of like, oh, if I'm not in the environment where I tend to relapse, Relapse can drop to zero. You know, if I don't turn on the TV when I'm alone late at night, I'm not going to be tempted to go watch a show that I shouldn't. If I'm not scrolling on social media in the bathroom alone, I'm not going to be tempted to go to that same place. You know, there are so many areas we could go, oh, this is a familiar pattern, and if I can avoid being in that, that space at all, I can avoid relapse with a lot more effectiveness than just trying to white-knuckle it when I'm on the verge of Going back to that old familiar place.
We know that Scripture calls us to flee from temptation, as instructed in 1 Corinthians 6:18. Why is it spiritually dangerous to rely on willpower alone, and how do intentional guardrails help someone actively deal with temptation?
Yeah, so we look at that first out of, um, 1 Corinthians 6:18. The NIV says flee from sexual immorality, or the NASB says sexual sin. Paul goes on to write that all of the sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually sins against their own body. I think that's, that's why sexual sin is so impactful beyond the other sins, because we're kind of sinning against our own conscience when we do that. We get that seared conscience. And with a seared conscience, what happens is our ability to discern even right and wrong becomes diminished. Like over time, with repeated behaviors, We, we start lacking guilt around some of it, right? And, and so, you know, just trying to, to try harder, which is kind of the willpower model of it, you know, is not sufficient in getting us help. We will talk as we go along here about the importance of community in the process, but just kind of circling back on this idea of guardrails. You know, if we continue to go back to a behavior over and over, that we don't want to do, then that infers that there is something beyond just what willpower can solve alone. If willpower was sufficient, many of the people tuning into this episode wouldn't be listening. They wouldn't be dealing with these problems. And so, as we look at the addiction cycle, there's 4 phases of the addiction cycle: preoccupation, rituals, compulsivity, and despair. It's really on the front end around those rituals. And Nick, you were talking about that a little before.
Yeah.
of these things, these compromises that we allow ourselves to get into. I am just going to get on social media. I am just going to get on Facebook for a little bit or check my Instagram or just watch this show late at night. And we are really setting ourselves up for failure with that. So, those guardrails, as we look at what are helpful guardrails, where do I apply them, really comes around those rituals. And relapse doesn't just happen on its own in a vacuum, right? There's a progression. And if we're honest with ourselves, when we look at the tendencies and the patterns of behavior, we're gonna find out that it pretty much follows the same pattern every single time, right? So that's kind of going back to what Rich was saying, you know, modeling it to ourselves. What is my patterns that gets me into trouble? And how do I need to back up that guardrail to keep me from going there in the first place? So, You know, one example, when I was in the Navy, I was in the Navy for 27 years, naval aviator, and flying in the Persian Gulf off a carrier, we put these boundaries. So, you guys have heard of Kharg Island in the news. It's been in the news recently. So, the northern Arabian Gulf or northern Persian Gulf there. And it's a very small zone for the carrier to operate. And when we're flying around there, we had to be very aware of where these boundaries were. So, there's a 12-mile international boundary around that, but they didn't want us getting anywhere close to that. So there was a buffer zone of an additional 5 miles around Karg Island to keep us from getting close to crossing that boundary. And that's kind of what a guardrail is, is an additional buffer zone that pushes that boundary out so that we're less likely to go there when the right circumstances are present.
Yeah, yeah, I love that story. And I, I think in early recovery, this was another paradigm shift for me because I think sometimes in our Christian faith, we kind of have this idea that we're supposed to fight temptation and fight against it. And one of the things I learned in my first group was that all of the energy we give to fighting temptation, we're actually fueling and giving more energy to the temptation. Because one of the things we know about our brain and the way that the pleasure cycle, the dopamine release works, is that as soon as your brain begins to think of a pleasurable activity— and this isn't, you know, confined to pornography, this is the same with eating food that we love, or maybe grabbing a donut or a coffee if we like— and as soon as we begin to think about that, dopamine actually anticipates the pleasure and begins to be released in the brain so that we're more likely to pursue that pleasure. And this is how God designed our brain to work, so that we would gravitate towards things that feel good and avoid things that hurt us, which We might think that's basic wisdom, and it is, because God made our brain that way. But what that means is that when we begin to think about, like, acting out with pornography, dopamine immediately begins to get released. And the more we're thinking about it, even if what we're thinking is, oh, don't look at that, don't go back there, I don't want to do that again, we are actually thinking about it and giving it more energy. And that's where scripture tells us not to fight temptation but to flee. And I think that's really what guardrails are, a statement to say, I'm going to stay as far removed from this temptation as I need to so that I'm not re-engaging in that battle. I'm not getting my dopamine flood happening, saying, boy, that would be really good, and I really like that. And, and, and that reality that there is a pleasure to pornography, there is a pleasure to sin, that if it wasn't there, we wouldn't struggle with it. But because it has this payoff, even though it's sinful and can be harmful to us, we gravitate to it. And so we need that wisdom to say, I'm not going to fight this because fighting just fuels it. It gives it more power. I'm going to flee from it. I'm going to stay away from it. And I think that's really what we're saying today. That's what guardrails are all about.
Yeah, no, I think that's really good. I like what you said, Brent, about, you know, if everybody, if we just relied on our willpower, then we wouldn't need to be here, right? And we say this all the time in groups. It's like these guys will come to group and it's like, well, I've, you know, they just got sick and tired of trying. They were trying harder, white-knuckling it for so long. It's like, well, I just got to the end of the rope and I couldn't do it anymore, you know? And part of that is that's how we were wired growing up. You know, boys don't— like, for the guys, it's like boys don't cry. If you get hurt, you rub some dirt on it. You just keep pushing through and you don't deal with the pain. You just keep— Almost like you're just really running away from it and you're not actually actively engaging in that and making sure, okay, well, I got hurt this way, so I'm not gonna do it that way again. So you're setting these things up. We just were told to go the opposite way and not to deal with the things that were painful in our life. And, you know, as you get older, we now— we become adults. Now we're dealing with things from our past that we're like, wow, I wish I would have dealt with that 20 years ago instead of just trying to outrun it.
Yeah, yeah. It's, it's having the wisdom to know where we're in a danger zone, where we could be triggered by old wounds or hurts that make us want to reach out for something to feel good, and then having the wisdom to stay far away from those places.
Yeah.
So Brent, if this is new for us, what are some practical ways that we can identify our personal hotspots or danger zones, and how can we build guardrails that leave no room for compromise or secrecy?
Yeah, there's a few tools that I use within the counseling setting with clients. Some of them are familiar to the groups. One of them is individual to what I use. Richard mentioned the 3 circles previously. That's out of the 12-step AA literature. So we've kind of adapted that into what we do. And just to review for the audience, the inner circle is that relapse circle, that place you promised not to return. The middle circle, we call that the distracted/triggered circle. Okay, this is where really the boundaries or guardrails are set in that middle circle. That gets into some of those rituals we talked about just a minute ago. And the outer circle is a self-care circle. And that's really the key portion to recovery is living in that outer circle, living your best life. your optimum self. And so, you know, with that, as we look at that middle circle, we probably heard the acronym HALT— hungry, angry, lonely, tired. I added a BS onto that as in bored and sick. So HALT-BS. Okay.
I like it.
And there's usually 1 to 2 of those that are your go-to. You know, for many guys is that bored and lonely. Those are the 2 big ones. So anticipating situations like when I am traveling or when my wife is away during the day or when I am alone at night where I am going to be bored or lonely, that will help set those guardrails. Right? So, if we do not— Ben Franklin had the quote that if we fail to plan, then plan to fail. Right?
Yeah.
So, I think a lot of recovery is anticipating those moments where I could be weak or susceptible. And having guardrails put up in those. We talked a little bit about the edging behaviors before. That kind of goes into that rituals of just getting up to that edge, maybe, you know, not fully jumping into pornography or masturbation. But, you know, I am just, you know, I am looking on social media. I am looking at non-sexualized images on Google. I am still getting that dopamine hit that you are talking about, Nick, that can really lead us into further behaviors. And then that flee that you talked about, that Joseph flee method, you know, just get up off the couch, get out of the shower, get out of bed if you're feeling tempted. I incorporate the escape plan, which is different than what we use in groups, but it's a 6-step process and it just steps you through. So the average craving lasts 28 minutes, okay? And this is designed to go for about an hour. So if you step through each of these steps, you know, by the time you get down to step 5, And you're actively trying to defeat it, then generally you're going to break through and not succumb to that temptation. So, step 1 is, what do you do with that first 30 seconds? Okay, so this could be some self-talk. This could be like reciting a scripture, short prayer, that kind of thing. Step 2, 1 to 2 minutes, what do you do? So, something a little bit longer. I love deep breathing meditation. So, deep breathing oxygenates your prefrontal cortex. We talked a little bit about the limbic brain. Right, that emotional side of the brain that gets hijacked and drives us toward those self-coping behaviors. Prefrontal cortex, seat of impulse control, emotional regulation. So if we're feeling activated, that deep breathing, breathing in, 4 seconds hold, slowly releasing, can oxygenate that and help us defeat it. So that's a great tool. You can put some meditation in with that, 3 to 5 minutes. That's maybe reaching out to an accountability partner, sending a flare-up with a text. Hey, I'm struggling. Can you pray for me? Okay, so now you're getting out in honesty and admitting that, hey, something's going on that I can't handle. Step 4, 10 to 15 minutes. Maybe that's making that accountability call to someone. Hey, can I talk to you? Anyone available? Step 5, 50 to 60 minutes. Change of environment. Okay, go for a walk, get some exercise, go take an early lunch if you're at work. Just get out of that environment. And then step 6 is the nuclear option. Okay, so this may be my last resort. I'm calling my group leader, I'm calling my pastor, maybe I call my wife, say, hey, I'm about to relapse. This is that last, you know, grasp at trying to defeat the temptation so I don't fall into relapse. So those are just a few tools that I use that may be helpful at these early stages.
Yeah, and I would just add to that, Brent, as I've Walk through some of those escape plan techniques, and really appreciate that. By the way, a principle that I've learned and tried to help so many men and women within recovery is to say you will you will never regret making a phone call or reaching out too early. You'll never regret that. You're like, "I'm not that tempted. I don't really need any help," and you put it off and put it off because the reality that we see is when that snowball gets rolling in your thinking and it gets further and further down the hill. To reach out actually gets harder and harder the further you get kind of into your pattern. Your, as you mentioned, Brent, your, your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain, is starting to shut down, and you're just going limbic into that pleasure center and the reward center and remembering your past acting out. It's really challenging to make a phone call at that point. I'm not saying you shouldn't, that's not an excuse, but I, I know my own history and, and so many guys that I've been in group with They would say the same thing of the further down I go towards relapse, the harder it is or more challenging it is to reach out to someone. And so I think that's one of the learned responses of an escape plan is just, man, if I'm feeling triggered a little bit, I realize I'm a little bit vulnerable, I've got to have people in my life that I can call right away, that I can just send a text and say, hey, I'm, I'm feeling a little something, you know, and dealing with it at that lowest possible denominator. And not waiting. And so if you can get that mindset of saying, I need to reach out and just connect with someone as soon as I'm feeling triggered and not think I can get right up to that edge and be flirting with relapse and be dwelling there for, you know, minutes or hours and think I'll be okay and I'll make a phone call when I really need it, because likely you won't really make the call until you have gone over the edge.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I, I think having that mindset of the sooner I reach out to someone, the better. That will put us in a good path.
Yeah, that's— it's funny because most guys will be like, well, it's really not that bad, you know? But if you talk to their wife, maybe it's like, well, it's a little bit worse than you think, right? So it's encouraging those guys, like you said, Nick, the earlier the better, because if they're doing it earlier and the guys in group were all paying attention and they're faster scale, we can actually maybe help prevent a relapse. Months in advance, if they're doing really, really well, and all of a sudden they start kind of sliding a little bit, and if they're not reaching out, and then we're not doing our job as group members or leaders and asking questions and knowing, like Brent's like, hey Brent, I've noticed in the last few weeks you've kind of slid down a little bit. How are things going? So it kind of falls on the group because it's not just the leaders group. Everybody, everybody in that group, it's our group. Yeah. And to take some ownership in how we care for each other and listen to people, because it could be something really, really small, but it's really got some deep layers that they don't understand or they're not seeing, but the other guys in group can see that. And so, hey, we can actually ask those questions to help prevent a relapse.
Yeah.
Brent, for the betrayed spouse, how can they prayerfully identify and communicate the boundaries they need for safety while trusting that God sees their plan and honors their voice?
Yeah, so, so hard for that betrayed spouse because after discovery, their entire world is put, you know, topsy-turvy, put on end, affecting their sense of safety around their marriage. But then that sense of safety also extends into the other relationships that they may have. It's just Nothing feels secure at that point. And they begin to start questioning everything, trusting nothing. And the immediate response for a lot of betrayed spouses at the front end is just this need to control, right? That's a safety response. If I can just control my husband, then he'll stop acting out. So the need to know everything, to So, you know, put limitations on what he can do. And that's not always healthy for the marriage or for her, because then it puts her in that responsible seat for his recovery. And that's not a fair place for her to be. And it's not a place where she can heal from. So the first thing is for that betrayed spouse just to realize that they cannot control their spouse's behavior. He is responsible for his recovery. That doesn't mean that they just sit idly by. They can communicate what they need and form their own boundaries for their own safety. So this may be like, okay, you're continuing to relapse. I need you to be a part of recovery group. So, you know, I can't continue in this relationship with you if you're not going to get the help that you need to get well. If their husband is responding in anger, right? So, you know, insisting on a timeout or separation. I'm not going to sit here and listen to you spout off like that. We need to take a timeout. We're going to get some distance. I'm going to do some grounding exercises for me if I'm feeling activated. And then we can come back and talk about this when you're more grounded and able to have a a conversation free of the emotion. After we relapse, it may mean needing that space, right? I may need you to sleep in the other room for a few nights or sleep on the floor for a few nights 'cause I can't have you in bed with me if you're gonna continue to relapse. That does not make me feel safe. Okay, so every spouse is gonna feel different. And this is why having a group like Betrilla and Beyond can be very helpful. to get input from other women of what they're doing, what seems reasonable. You know, a lot of this, you know, we need to make it proportional to the behaviors. Once the ladies get into about month 4, they start working on those safety action plans. You know, on the guys' side, they're working recovery action plans. And that's all about setting these boundaries. So in the context of group, that's where kind of the boundary setting happens, and we can start fusing those 2 together, fusing what the wife needs for her safety with what the husband is setting for his own personal recovery. That can be helpful. But having those trusted people in your life, like group members, therapists, pastors, close friends to be able to bounce things off of and make sense of things, is very important for that betrayed spouse in those early stages.
Yeah, it's so important when you said, Brent, that the goal here for that betrayed spouse is not to try to control, uh, their addicted or struggling spouse's behavior. Because as soon as we're trying to control someone else's behavior, we're not in a healthy place. But that focus on our own safety— and just to say a word about safety, by that we don't mean just physical safety, because I've, I've had a lot of people react to that like, well, I've never beat my wife, I would never touch her, like, she's safe, she doesn't have to worry about that. When we say safety, we also mean emotional safety and mental and relational safety. Because when you've been in a pattern of using pornography or other sexual behaviors, and that's a significant breach of trust in the relationship, and if you're going to rebuild trust, the other person has to feel safe enough to begin trusting you. And if they don't feel safe, there's nothing you can do to rebuild trust. And that's why for both spouses. That focus on safety for the betrayed spouse is so important. And so that might sound like the betrayed spouse saying, you know, I want to trust you again, but when I see you taking your phone into the bathroom, it triggers all kinds of fear in me of what you're doing. And so I would like a boundary that you don't take your phone into the bathroom. Now, that's not to manipulate or control them, but it's expressing the way it makes me feel. And if we're going to rebuild trust, I need to be able to feel safe that I can. Trust what you're doing. And one of the phrases we've said at Pure Desire a lot is trust his actions, not his words, because we've all tried to use our words to fix the situation or make it better. But it's it's what are my behaviors that really show I'm learning and growing and changing? And and maybe the spouse says, you know, I need to trust that you're not going back to those old places, and so I need you not to be on certain apps or websites or places where you've acted out in the past. Because they can see if, if you're using that same app and you're on that same website all the time, they have that fear or belief that you're going to act out again. And so that won't help them feel safe. So I think if we keep that focus on creating safety for the betrayed spouse, with the focus that that means trust can be rebuilt, then that will help both spouses navigate what kind of behaviors need to be in place so that those guardrails and boundaries can really work towards healing and recovery.
All right, Brent, uh, why is ownership of your guardrails essential to true repentance, and how does surrendering control over changing them reflect humility before God and others?
Yeah, let's, let's go back to another verse. Matthew 5:29-30 is Sermon on the Mount. Uh, everyone's familiar with this one, but just to refresh: if your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out, throw it away. It's better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It's better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. And it's interesting because he was just referring to sexual sin right before he went into that. And, you know, Jesus is not advocating self-mutilation here, right?
Right.
There's a bigger point. And what he's trying to say is that sometimes we have to go to extreme measures to defeat sin.
Okay.
And this is some of the hardest things when, you know, guys are in group and you're challenging them. You know, it may look like putting that accountability software on the phone. It may, you know, if I can't handle that and I keep relapsing, then getting that stripped-down smartphone like the Wise Phone or getting blocking software like the Canopy app on my phone, getting rid of those apps, social media, streaming devices. And we make all These excuses, well, I need that, or I have to have that, or I need to be on social media. But, you know, if you keep going back there, that's the gateway into relapse. Then at some point, we got to get real with ourselves and stop being deluded. I can't have this in my life if it keeps causing me to stumble. And I got an example from group way back. One of the guys in group, his acting out behaviors was with with gay prostitutes. And so he was using his laptop to schedule these hookups where the guys would come to his apartment and whatnot. And so, you know, after relapse, we adjusted his recovery action plan. He was gonna give up his laptop for a month. And so sure enough, you know, a little time later, he relapsed. And I said, okay, you know, thanks for confessing. When are you gonna bring me your laptop? And then he started making excuses. Well, I need this. I need this for my banking and to do this and do that and whatnot. And I said, no, you committed to giving up your laptop if you relapsed. So when are you bringing it over? So he finally gave in and said, okay, I'll bring it over. And I said, and oh, by the way, I'm going to take your phone next. He said, what? I have to have my phone. I said, no, you don't. Society didn't stop 15 years ago and we didn't have these smartphones. So you can go to the public library, use the internet there. You can go to the teller at the bank and do your banking in person. It's gonna be tougher on you, but that's gonna make you think about not relapsing the next time. And sure enough, the power in that was that that broke the cycle for him. And to my knowledge, he didn't go back there again. That stopped it. And so having, You know, first of all, those trusted people in your life speaking truth is essential, but then setting those hard guardrails is critical if we ever want to break the cycle.
When we think about repentance, I know in my own story, I thought the key was just feeling really bad and remorseful about what I'd done, and that if I would just— if I just felt bad enough and hated it enough and apologized enough and was so Sorry enough, then I would change. But that's not repentance, because repentance means turning and going in a different direction. And, and yes, we can feel bad about something, but that's not the same as turning and going in a different direction, walking in a new way. And so guardrails may be things like giving up a smartphone or a computer or television or cable or even the place that we like to visit for fun or whatever it is. That can represent repentance, that I am willfully choosing to lay this down, and in my trust of God and my love for my spouse or my family, I am going to live differently. I am going to turn and go in a different direction. And that really, I think, is repentance being lived out in a helpful way because it changes us over time. That is what changes us, isn't just feeling bad about our sin. It is actually doing life differently. And then when it comes to, you know, I've always said we wanna give the keys to changing this to somebody else, because the danger is that we all tend to think we are healthier than we really are. So if we've been stuck in a pattern of relapse and we have a good month, we're like, I'm healed, it worked, I'm good, it's been a great— it's been a whole— like you said, Brent, like if you're doing something every day and now it's been a month, you're like, I think I'm good to go. And then we bring back in the internet or that smartphone or that pattern and— Guess what happens? We fall right back into the same pattern because it really takes time for these changes to solidify and become our new normal. And that's where someone else can see that more than we can. And if we say, man, I've had a great month, I think I'm good to go to be back on, you know, Instagram again. And they're like, it's only been a month. Like, I thought you said you would do this for 6 months. Like, well, yeah, but I'm doing so good. Like, why don't we keep it going and get at least to that 6-month mark? So when someone else has the keys to the change of our guardrails, that can help us stay persistent and persevering in that change of behavior, in that repentance that we are walking in. So that would be my encouragement is we all fall into that trap of thinking we are healthier than we are, and that is why we need other people to encourage us to stick with it and keep walking out these changes that we are making.
I love the word ownership of the guardrails, and one way we could take ownership of those is inviting others into that. In the community, so it's like I like my three circles. I have them written out. Well, I'll share those with my wife, and I'm like, "Hey, here's my guardrails." And it's always funny when I look at after she's shared it. There's some other ones in there, and so you're inviting others into your recovery process. And it's like so that way I know well if I'm not really following this, these people in my life are going to see this and said, "Hey," like Brent said, it's like. Well, wait, you don't need a computer. You said you were going to do this. And then this, if that's in my, my, my guardrails there, those are the people that invited into my healing are going to help me walk that out. So, and one thing I always say is, you know, healing at all cost. What is it going to cost me? And part of that is owning everything that I've written down for guardrails and relapse and sticking to that, inviting others in to help Help me in my accountability.
Uh, Brent, let's go back to the betrayed spouse and talk a little bit for them about what this looks like. Um, how can the betrayed spouse discern whether their spouse's actions are creating genuine safety and change? And how can the question, do I feel safe, be a helpful one in determining what boundaries you might still need as the betrayed spouse?
Yeah, I appreciate what you were saying earlier about safety, and the safety we're talking about here is emotional safety, relational safety. Right, can I trust you? It's not physical safety. I mean, obviously, you know, that may come in occasionally, but mostly what we're dealing with is that lack of trust in the relationship after discovery. And, you know, just realizing that genuine recovery is a way of life. It's not just about avoiding the bad behaviors, but how is your spouse showing up day to day? Are they changing? You know, for the betrayed spouse, it's learning to trust your gut again, right? Because their entire world was rocked at discovery. And, you know, they probably suspected stuff looking back over time, but then they trusted their spouse. So could it be this? And trying to reclaim part of themselves, you know, after discovery of, yeah, my gut was right on, right? I can trust that. And then going forward, you know, looking at the signs, you know, do those actions like you're talking about, Nick, align with the words? Not just what they're saying, but are they actually doing and showing up differently? Are they more emotionally present instead of being withdrawn? Are they able to validate your pain instead of getting defensive when you bring stuff up or when you are feeling those intense emotions?
Right.
Does he stay engaged in difficult situations or does he continue to go back and isolate? So looking at those day-to-day changes of how is he different is really key to, to really being able to, to trust again. And then having that trusted outside voice such as a therapist or recovery group, close friend to bounce this off of, to bring clarity into this is essential too, because you're going to feel crazy sometimes. Like, I can't trust myself. You know, these emotions are too intense. And, and someone to be able to help ground you in those moments, say, no, everything that you're experiencing is normal. And this is just a normal reaction to the betrayal trauma you're going through.
Yeah, Nick, one, one thing you said earlier about where our spouses will say, you know, trusting our, our words and our actions. Um, for so long our words have meant nothing because we—
We've said one thing and done another.
Yeah. And I know for my wife, you know, you can only say you're sorry so many times. And so even with my wife, it's like, okay, I, I hear you say I'm sorry, but I don't see these, you know, A to Z, whatever. I don't see any changes in this type of behavior. It could be How I respond to her, how I talk to her, just in general conversations. And then in that, that makes her feel like— and that'll make her feel unsafe. And, and not like I'm gonna hurt her, but just like in a— because of her own past, the, you know, if I raise my voice or if I'm angry and frustrated, and it'll cause her to shut down where she doesn't feel like where she's safe and can have a real conversation. So she doesn't want to hear me Say, I'm sorry, I'll try harder, I'll do better. She actually wants to see how I respond to her, how I show affection, like holding her hand in public, and just all the little things, which to me seem little, but to her are really huge things. Because if I'm not treating her well, I'm not doing these things that she wants to see on a daily basis.
Yeah. Well, I think that question, do I feel safe, is critical. And, and I think adding to it the question of why. If I don't feel safe, why? Is it something about their behavior?
Yeah.
And that's something we need to address, or is it rooted in my own fears and my own feelings? And, and your feelings are completely valid and they're real. But if you can discern that's the only reason I don't feel safe is because I have this lingering fear that the other shoe's gonna drop, well, that may just be a process of time and trust and growth of the relationship. But if you ask the why don't I feel safe question, and you realize, well, it's because they keep hiding their phone screen from me when I come into the room, or they keep lying about what time they'll be home from work, or they're being deceptive about how they spent their money. And even if it's things totally unrelated to sexual integrity, but you're seeing these inconsistencies, then, then your feelings of not being safe are valid based on behaviors you're seeing. And that's where I think you have the opportunity then to address some boundaries and, and bring up the practical reasons like, hey, here's some behaviors.
Mm-hmm.
that you are still engaging in that communicate to me you're not safe, you're not being trustworthy, you're not being 100% truthful with me. And for me to rebuild trust in the relationship, I, I need to see that you're acting in a way that is trustworthy. And so that can create a healthy, although challenging and painful, conversation around needed boundaries, um, versus when it might just be those, like I said, very valid feelings of, well, I just have this fear the other shoe's gonna drop. That's real, and that may be something you could process with a group or a counselor or your spouse if you're in that place. But they— that alone may not necessarily mean you need— that you need more boundaries if there's no behavior that you can see that's creating that lack of fear.
Yeah, that's, you know, one of the techniques we use is AVR— acknowledge, validate, reassure. So if you're, you're the betrayer, um, in that situation and there hasn't been any acting out behavior, just acknowledging and validating those feelings. I understand why, you know, that that's coming up for you based on my past, but I wanna reassure you that I'm doing my steps. I'm in a group, I'm maintaining my sobriety, and, you know, your fear is valid, but, you know, I'm in this and I'm engaged.
Well, Brent, this has been a powerful, powerful conversation about guardrails, the need for them. As we wrap up today, what is some final advice that you'd like to share with our audience on establishing strong guardrails when your struggle has come into the light?
Yeah, just some recapping that guardrails are that great first step to starting change, and they're essential within the recovery process, but you can't do this alone. You need outside help, especially if you've tried this and you keep going back and repeating these behaviors over time. So just some resources out there, you know, within Pure Desire, we got 7 Pillars of Freedom group for men, Unraveled for women who are struggling, and for those betrayed spouses, the Betrayal and Beyond groups. You know, if this— as you're getting into group, about 2/3 of the folks in our groups really find a lot of change and success in that. But after a couple, 3 months, if you're still struggling, Then maybe counseling will be helpful for you. We do provide both individual and couples counseling within Pure Desire. Some great books, resources for betrayed spouses: Your Sexually Addicted Spouse by Barbara Steffens. I think Barbara's been on the show and been at our summits before. Nick and Ashley just published Hope and Healing and Freedom. I picked that one up. And then I love Mark Lazar's Healing the Wounds of Sexual Addiction. So, a few books, if you are just trying to dive into this and figure out what it is all about, may be helpful in getting you started. And I will kind of end with this quote from Michael Dye, we are wounded in relationships and we are healed in relationships. So, community really is the key to getting well. Guardrails is one tool that we use within that, but that relational piece is essential for the lasting healing.
Yeah, Brent, I just want to say thank you. in a couple different areas. One, just your service for the many years in the military. We appreciate you and your continued service in helping men and women, just in a different battle. And it takes a lot of courage for us to lead groups, to walk couples and individuals through this battle. And we're so grateful and grateful for your friendship over the years and what you've brought to so many men. And now on our team with the counseling team, Uh, just want to say thank you for that and really appreciate all you do for, for, for PD.
Yeah, appreciate it, Rich.
I think my final thought about guardrails is just if you're early in recovery, if you've recently been discovered or finally hit, you know, what Brent talked about, hit a rock bottom, you're like, okay, something has to change. You've probably had a lot of intent to go in a different direction. You've had a strong emotional desire to change. What guardrails do is they create a plan. And if we're actually gonna change long-term and walk in freedom, we need a plan of recovery. And guardrails for all of us, I think, represent that plan to say, here are the areas I'm choosing not to go. Here are the activities I'm going to no longer engage in. Here's the things I'm going to do instead, so that we stay away from that edge of relapse and instead can choose our healthy behavior. So it might seem like, uh, just kind of a small practical tool to have on the side. And really it's not. I think guardrails are essential to walking in long-term healing and recovery. So Brent, thanks for, uh, being a part of this today. Thank you for the reminder that guardrails are not simply about restriction, but they're about creating that space for freedom, safety, and healing to thrive, because we want this to become a new way of life, not just one more attempt at trying harder. And I think you've shared a lot of principles Uh, and tools and ideas that can help people establish those guardrails in their own life. So been great having you on, uh, again, Brent, and we'll, uh, we'll do it again soon.
Yeah, thanks guys.
All right, thanks Brent.
Hey, and Brent mentioned it, I want to let all of you listeners know that this month with this series we're running a special on our book Hope, Healing, and Freedom. It's really an introduction to recovery and what it looks like to walk in sustained healing and change. And this month only, you can get Hope, Healing, and Freedom at 33% off. So just $12. Uh, you can find the details on that in the show notes, but grab your copy. If you're early in recovery, Hope, Healing, and Freedom is an essential tool that can help you understand what a recovery journey truly looks like. And if you're a fan of this content, if today's show meant something to you, please subscribe, uh, to it, share it with somebody, write us a review. All of these are ways that more people can find this life-giving content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.
