FAQ #16 - Church | Pure Desire Podcast | Episode 314

Hello.

Hello. Welcome to the Pure desire podcast on YouTube. I am your host, Trevor Windsor. This is a weekly podcast helping you take back your life from the effects of unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Sexual brokenness impacts us all. Men and women who are stuck in shame and are unsure if healing is actually possible. Church leaders who want to help but don't know where to start. Parents who don't know how to help their kids develop sexual integrity. Wherever you're at, this podcast is for you. Through sharing stories of healing, interviewing addiction and betrayal experts, and normalizing the conversation on sexuality, we offer a clear plan for recovery and healing from the effects of unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. You have what it takes to break free, heal your relationships, and take back your life. Make sure to, like, share and subscribe to the channel. It helps us so much and really just pushes our message forward. All right, with that, let's get to this week's episode. Rodney, welcome back, man. Glad that you're with us.

Always. Great to be with you and Nick.

Okay. So as a few guys who've been pastors, we wanted to take some time and really talk through frequently asked questions, specifically around the church, the church, and this topic of sexuality and betrayal and brokenness. And our whole vision at Pure Desire is around equipping the church to address these issues and do it in a way that helps their people. We see this as a discipleship thing. And so for us, this is something we're all passionate about. And so thanks for being with us, Rodney. Definitely looking forward to it. Let's just jump in with the first one. This one comes from Mike from Minnesota. I hope it's warmer there than it is here. His question is, what is the best way to get groups started in a church that already has successful celebrate recovery groups? Should I suggest a different day of the week so individuals could go to both or avoid coming off as a competing group? So I think a lot of churches have this issue. How would we help, Rodney?

Yeah, well, the fact that your church has celebrated recovery, that's something to really be grateful for. Number one, I would always start with the pastor and I would always start with the leader of the CR ministry. Because the reality is your church believes in healing relationships and getting people to good resources. And you're all on the same team wanting people to heal. So relationships are the best way to move forward because there's no magic way to do this. It's just what works best for each situation. For instance, how can we both agree? Because we have that in our church in Idaho. How do we agree to have both programs be successful here? Can we partner? Can we not Childcare timeframes, do the programs match? Can we adjust them? And the more you can just work together on those things and be about celebrating one another instead of being in competition. I think that's really important. Yeah.

As I think about churches that celebrate recovery, I've often told them that the ministry is really well named because it's a place we go to celebrate recovery, that we're walking in a level of recovery. And the share groups that happen after the main group time are really kind of more open form. They're kind of at will come when you can share as much as you're willing. But if someone is in need of recovery, and this is actually in the CR charter language, and so that might be a step for you as well, is to find that in the CR documentation that says if someone is stuck in their addiction, they are going to need a 12 step group would be CR's recommendation in addition to the group night. And so what we've been able to say to churches is the Pure Desire groups could be an alternative offering for the 12 step groups. Because Pure Desire is not based around the 12 steps. And we've talked about that in other episodes. But I think it's more effective. It has higher levels of commitment and requirement. It takes someone deeper into their story and their trauma. And I've seen that just work really well. In fact, at the church that I attend, they have CR night on Friday. It's been at the church for like 18 years. It's well attended, it's a very meaningful night and I've gotten to speak at it on a number of occasions. And I would never think of the Pure Desire groups as competing. We always talk about them as being complimentary because then I would be leading a Pure Desire group on Tuesday nights. And I would say in that season when I was doing both, at least half of the men in my group were coming to both. They were going to cr. And what they liked about the Friday night is they could go with their spouse. There was the food and the worship time and a message kind of around recovery which they really appreciated. But then Tuesday night when we would do group, that's where they could go deep. That's where they were expected to complete their work and come with things ready to share. There was a commitment level to the phone calls and the check ins and I really think they needed both. And so that's what I would encourage you to offer to your church. Like, hey, these are not competing, but they can really be complementary, particularly for those that are on the front end of their journey. And I actually had some people find my peer desire group or our peer desire groups, because they went to CR first. That was just the more public thing that they'd heard about. And the CR leaders, because we'd worked together, were aware that when it came to issues of sexuality and pornography, that they could funnel them towards a pure desire group. And so I got phone calls or text messages saying, hey, I've heard you lead a pure desire group. Because I went to Celebrate Recovery Friday night and then they'd end up showing to group on Tuesday. So I really think they dovetail nicely and you can use again, some of the charter language of Celebrate Recovery itself to promote that to your church.

Yeah, and just be careful. You know, at our church right now, they have Celebrate Recovery. And it's those people who are in Celebrate Recovery, from my experience, are very passionate about it and love it and are lifers for it. And if you can make sure that your relationship with the people that are involved in Celebrate Recovery is like. Is kind and there's humility and there's encouragement and you're for each other, I think that that goes a long way because I have had people reference to Pure Desire groups from there. But then I also, like, it just happens to be that one of one of our close friends, her dad, is one of the guys who like, leads it. And it's amazing, it's super fun. And every time I see him, he always asks me how group is. And so there's a lot of shared language there. And so I think if you can leverage a community that's like that, it's just going to help your church in general.

Totally 90 groups and 90 days is what a lot of recoveries say. So the more options you have to get in community. But you know, PD has the right resource, in my opinion, for this area and takes them deep and has a really great structure for it.

So flip to a different topic here, Rodney. What does it look like to practically address sexual brokenness or sexual integrity in my sermons? If someone is preaching, getting to share talks, how could they integrate that into their preaching?

Well, the first thing I would say is as a man or woman who's communicating, own your own story at whatever that is. The more you can just come to terms, if you have any negative sexual history that you've kind of owned it and there's not shame that you're living with, that's such a great place to start. From is just recognizing maybe God's grace or help in your own life. To me, that always is the best place. So we're not just touching on a subject, but we got hidden shame or something, or always share a story. Have somebody that you know, this has been part of their testimony, get up and share and share their story to the congregation is, I think, another great way highlight the problem. Because this is a real global issue around the world. And I just know the younger generations, which is becoming more and more below me now, is really open. When churches address addiction, pornography, sexuality, and they don't hide it. You know, they don't hide it. They just say, hey, this is an issue that we have to face in culture, and they're open about it. Then the other thing I would simply say is call peer desire. They have a wonderful team, a speaking team. Nick, Ashley went and did a church service in the Spokane area the other day, was fantastic. So Ashley, Bob, Nick, myself. I mean, there's a lot of us that could come and be complimentary to that subject as well, but there's a lot of ways to go about tackling it. So those are just some things to think about.

Yeah, I think educating yourself is really important. I think that that's something that, if you can speak with some competency or some understanding about the issue, I think that that will seep through in anything that you talk about. I also was thinking as you were talking, Rodney, that social media, politics, things that are kind of on everyone's mind today tend to be things that are talked about a lot, like they're illustrations or practical applications from things. And I just was thinking, if you knew that sexuality is a universal thing that everyone carries, and to use Julie Slattery's language, every single person is somewhere on the scale of sexual brokenness to sexual integrity. There's not an arrival there. Then address it as often as you can. And I realize, even as I say that, it's just like. Well, I'm not just gonna, like, throw a random illustration or talk about sexuality if it doesn't fit. I'm not saying to force the issue, but if there's any connection to that topic, I think the more that you can press into it and the more you can use it as an illustration or you can use it as an example of something that needs to change, whether it's a philosophy or how we act, what we do, that kind of thing, then I think just a smaller, practical thing that actually has a huge impact is making sure that when we are using these illustrations or we are talking about sexuality or brokenness, that using both male and female, that there's always this, men struggle, women struggle, men are betrayed, women are betrayed. And so making sure that we're casting that wide net so we're not making someone feel more alone than maybe they already do.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about on this one, too, Trevor. That if every person sitting in church every weekend is a sexual being made in the image of God to have sexual thoughts, sexual desires, sexual hormones, then that's a reality of something. We all are. And whether we're in the midst of a struggle or not, we have to be able to apply the truth of scripture to our sexuality. And I think we need to get away from the mindset where we only talk about sex once in a while at that kind of unique weekend, and we warn everybody ahead of time and we make sure the kids are somewhere else. And I'm not saying we shouldn't do that. But if that's the only time we talk about sexuality, it actually, I think, creates a further level of taboo and shame and mystery. And, like, we can't really talk about this unless we prepare months in advance, get all the kids out. You know, it's like, now it's not just a part of our human experience. So if you do that because you feel you have a special need for a focus, great. But in addition to that, what you were saying, how can we apply the truth of scripture to this area as just a regular part of the sermons? And so a couple of quick examples I thought of. If you're preaching on gratitude, you could talk about the person who says, maybe you're stuck in a marriage where you feel like you deserve more sex, or your spouse should be more responsive to you sexually, how could you focus on gratitude for what God has given your spouse, what you do have in your relationship? Because as we focus on what we do have, we're going to grow in that relationship. So here I'm preaching on gratitude, but I've applied it to someone's maybe sexual frustration in their marriage. Maybe we're talking about counting the cost and following Christ, and we could use it as a bridge to talk about that. Our culture, being a very sexualized culture, gives us this message that I can do what I want when I want, and that includes being able to surf images on my phone, go to porn websites, and kind of say, it's no big deal, but if I'm going to count the cost to follow Christ and I'm going to deny myself and turn from this world, then I'm looking to turn away from those things. So now I've applied discipleship into that area or a third one. I thought of, we could be preaching on Moses and principles of leadership. And maybe we say in the home, moms and dad, that means we need to be a leader in our area of our kids sexual development, that they're going to take their cues from us. And we need to take a leadership role with our children in having proactive conversations about healthy godly sexuality. So in all of these, I'm looking for ways how do I bridge the gap to what people are experiencing. And I hope you're doing that in other topics as well. I mean, I wouldn't say that every application should be a reference to someone's sexuality, but the more we include that as one of the areas of life we're referencing, because usually I think most preachers do, they'll apply it to people's relationships in general, will apply it to their money, maybe to their careers. And I would just say and apply it to their sexuality, because these are all major parts of what it means to be human. And when we give people biblical ways about thinking of their everyday struggles and battles, that's where I think it really becomes a normal conversation in our church.

Yeah, totally.

And I would say normalize it by having options for people to take steps into educational platforms or classes or workshops. And then like Nick said, double down on that. Just holistic spirituality, the integration of the way of God in all areas, including sexuality.

Totally.

Just let it be one of those subjects.

Yes. Okay. This is what I love about faq. Switching gears here. Sometimes this is a. This is sent in from someone who wants to be anonymous, which is totally fine. We're all for that. Sometimes due to ignorance or a lack of education or awareness, churches can promote marital sexual abuse with phrases like don't deprive him or don't say no to your husband. Two questions out of that. How can people recover from this form of spiritual abuse? That's a big question. And the second one is, how can churches address this if they've preached these messages in the past?

Nick, you want to start on this one or you want me to dive in?

Hey, if you're ready, go for it. I'm always.

You know, first of all, if you've been hurt where scripture has been used in a way that favors a male dominance on behalf of the church and a leader within the church, I sincerely apologized. If religion has in any way made you feel less than or manipulated you or somehow Your whole life is to just serve, you know, a spouse. That regard, especially in this case, we think about a female to a male, but it could be maybe another way as well. So first of all, I would simply say one this is that we're both reflect the image of God, male and female. And mutual submission is a beautiful thing. It's what the scripture talks about in the book of Ephesians, submit one to another. So mutual respect and mutual submission is really should what be taught in churches. And unfortunately we take I think those scriptures out of context and use them as a way not to first start with respect. But they see it more as a duty scripture. And I think that's not interpreting the scripture correctly. Also just other centered self giving. That's a sign of maturity in our lives where as we mature we prefer the needs of one another. And in a marriage relationship, men are called in a leadership role and leadership just means go first. So it's us submitting to our wives, us meeting their needs first. And I think the church too can also just admit mistakes if people have been hurt and bring some clarity to the subject matter and go seek some outside help. If you feel like you're not getting that clarity from your church. There's a lot of good ministries and organizations that can really help. I know our B and B and unraveled resources are really great about self respect and good communication in that regard.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Along the same lines, Rodney, there's really two sides of this question. Because the one is if I'm feeling abused by this, what do I do? And I think I would answer that the way we might respond to any form of abuse to say you're going to need support, you may need a professional that you can talk through with it. What does it look like to recover from this and the trauma I felt. And you're going to need community, you're going to need a group around you that can understand what you're going through and point you towards health and growth and maturity. And I think unfortunately many people that have been really hurt by this kind of language have left the church because they feel like there's no other alternative. And I would say that that may be a need to leave that current church, if that's truly a philosophy they keep preaching and advocating and you can see there's error in it. But I would just say that's not the word of God or the body of Christ as a whole. And so another thing I find is helpful is if you have Christ followers that you really respect and are close to wrestle together. What does the word of God mean in 1 Corinthians 7? What do I take out of Ephesians 5? Because it's an unfortunate conclusion if we just kind of like, staple those pages of our Bible shut and say, well, this has been used for abuse. So I just don't even read that or believe that. Well, no, there is, as Rodney was bringing up, some really beautiful application of mutual submission. But unfortunately, many churches have kind of ignored other scriptures about the way that we build trust and safety and that our bodies matter and all that has to be taken into account. Now, on the flip side, if we feel, boy, we've been a part of perpetuating those messages, I think just what Rodney said, there needs to be humility. It's okay to take ownership. It's okay to stand and say, there's been a way. We've approached this passage that I think has been taken to mean we have no voice, we have no say. We just have to be a doormat. And that's not the full teaching of Scripture, that this is really in the context of healthy relationship and of two people that are committed to the good of the other. And so let's talk about what do we do in situations where that's being abused or taken advantage of. And so I think just having that humility to learn and grow, and I would say, finally a willingness to listen. Because if we hear from people even occasionally that say, you know, this method of preaching led to real, significant pain and abuse in my life, I think we need to take that seriously and listen and say, boy, is that truly. Are they truly being offended by the gospel? Because some people are, let's name that truth. But if what they're truly being offended by is something that I'm preaching that isn't accurate to the gospel, maybe I need to learn and grow. Because I don't think the word of God abuses us. I think it challenges us. I think it corrects us. But if it's leading to someone really feeling abused in its application as the preacher, we may be missing something. And I think having that ability to say, I'm not perfect, you know, the word of God can be perfect, but my application and preaching of it is not. And so to own that and to learn and grow, I just think is something we should be doing in every area, and especially in this one.

I think this is another area that people can. And I'm guilty of it, too, of villainizing the church as if it's this bad you know, the big, bad, big C church or whatever, that they're out to hurt people. And I want to make sure that people understand that. It's not like a pastor or preacher is getting up there thinking, I'm going to say this, and I know it's going to hurt people. I know it's going to be abusive. I think a lot of it comes from a misunderstanding of the actual problem or issue and how to address it. You know, like, I've already talked about this a lot, but in my experience at seminary, I was never taught how to help people walk through sexual issues. I was never discipled on my sexuality. And so for a lot of pastors, Christian leaders, ministry leaders, whatever that are stepping into the pulpit, they don't have a lot of that. And so I think that they're operating off of this. It's not necessarily a faulty playbook, but it's not an accurate playbook. And so I think that in some ways there has to be some understanding. However, that doesn't mean to what we already said that you have to stay at that church and continue to put yourself underneath those abusive messages.

I like a saying that says, manipulation is never the way of love. So sometimes, unfortunately, even scripture can be used to manipulate. It's just not the way love is. It's the essence of God.

Yeah. It's an interesting contradiction because there are many places we're called to surrender. But as soon as my surrender to Christ, as soon as my surrender to the will of God is being manipulated or forced, to me, it's no longer surrender. It's a very different thing. So, Ronnie, to flip to another topic here on churches and groups. What do we do if people from other churches in the community come to our groups? And I know you were a pastor at a larger church that had a lot of groups, and so I imagine you guys experience this quite often. Is this good? Is this bad? And what do we do if they start attending our church?

Well, I would first say you got to realize we're all on the same team. So if you have that maturity in your mind, I would rather have somebody attend another church if they have a group that's going to help them heal in some area and get involved in that fellowship and help that fellowship. So I think just maturity as a pastor is just kind of holding your shoe, your. Excuse me, holding your sheep loosely in the sense of. To love is to have their best interest. And so if the ministry I have on finances or grief helps them, but another church has a ministry, pure desire, and that can help them, hey, whatever helps your family grow. And that ministry. I think there's some maturity there. That's kind of how. That's the disposition we took. There was other churches in our community that had other ministries. We would highly recommend our tenders to go there and be plugged in. And if they felt the need to transition, you know, whatever you think is best. Migration is always a part of our spiritual journey. If not, I would have been at the first church I ever attended in Salinas, California. Right.

Yeah.

It's just how it goes. And so it's not that you're trying to hurry up and switch churches, but it's okay to go to a group at one church and still attend your church where you're going. Just see it as you're getting resources from the body of Christ and they're helping you.

Yeah. I would just say if people from other churches are coming to your groups, that it's not this, like, active recruiting where you're trying to steal people from another other church. Like, I don't think that that's good. I think that ends up being more about pride, being territorial and all of that. But if someone wants to come to your church, I mean, you don't need to turn them away, like, oh, sorry. Like, our doors are closed to you. Because I know that a lot of people, especially who've been in Pure Desire groups or been through our counseling program or any recovery or healing, tend to want to go to churches that talk about it. Like, it's just something where it's like, I don't really hear any of this from the pulpit. We never talk about sexuality. There's not a. A trusted level of authenticity that's coming from the stage or from leadership. So I'm gonna find somewhere else. I am in support of that. Similar to what you're saying, Rodney, that if someone wants to find a place that's more authentic, more real, it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to talk about sexuality, other difficult issues to address in the church, then go for it. But I also think that some people can use it, use anything, really, as an excuse to just bail if they're not getting their own way. And so if you're the person, I'll just say this. If you're the person who is thinking about leaving a church, are you leaving the church to pursue this great community that you think is going to be good for you and your family? Or are you just irritated at the pace at which groups are starting or not starting at your church and you're just trying to bail out. I think there's a little bit of a discernment process that needs to take place there.

Yeah, I agree. I would always try to be real upfront with people. As a group leader, I would say to others, you don't have to attend our church to attend our groups. But I want you to know that my hope, my goal is that you will go back to your church as an ambassador and start a group there. That that is what I am working for and how I think you could best serve your own church. And I think if you have that conversation up front, it helps. And when I would talk to other pastors in the community, I would talk about our groups and say, hey, if someone comes to you and says, I'm really struggling in this area, you are more than welcome to refer them to our groups. And I would say that to the pastors, I'd say, it is not my goal to get them to our church, it's my goal to help them get healthy and send them back to be even more plugged into what you're doing. And so in that regard, the other thing I would mention is groups are confidential. So if your church knows that you're attending groups somewhere else, hopefully it's only because you chose to tell them, because the group you're attending is confidential. I would never go to another pastor or leader and say, hey, so and so from your church is in my group. What's up with them? That would be a huge break in confidentiality. And so just a reminder to you, if you're a group leader, a group member, if someone from another church is attending your group, mum's the word. Like, that's not why another church should know that someone's in your group. And so if the person coming from that church has chosen to reveal it to their pastor, or maybe their pastor has referred to them, great. But otherwise, that's the real freedom that a pure desire group has, is you could be from another church and no one needs to know that you're finding help and healing somewhere across town because you're having a very confidential experience. And that is what I think, honestly enables a lot of people to have the courage to take that step because they're like, hey, I can go somewhere and get help and I don't have to immediately tell the whole world what I'm doing and why.

And heaven forbid you're like in a Baptist church and you go to a Presbyterian church that's running pure desire groups or something. It's okay. To cross those lines too, for sure.

Well, I think too, Nick, you to me hit on a good point. I've had people that they don't want to be seen in our church's recovery ministry because they don't want anyone to know they've struggled with this. So I've actually gone with other people to like, SA groups because they won't come to ours. And I said, hey, I just want to get you in a group. If you don't want to come to this one, let's go somewhere and find help for you, you know?

And it's part of the reason I would never advertise what night groups were on. I didn't want people to have any of that fear. Now, we would advertise heavily that we had groups, but when and when and where they met, unless you had been in one, you had no idea.

Yeah.

And I think that really did help people feel like, okay, I can show up and people don't know, oh, it's that night and there's his car. What's he doing here? That's a real danger.

Yeah, for sure. Okay, Next question is, what encouragement would you give pastors on referring out to counselors or therapists when they oftentimes feel pressure to be the counselor to their people? This is a real one.

Yeah. I think it just depends on your congregation and the size of your staff and what giftings you have and who's in what role. Some churches have pastoral care areas where people focus on that and they're able to give resources to have that there. I would always start with, just look at your education and look at your experience and ask, do I have time and energy to help in whatever area that is. And if not, just find assets in your communities, CSATs or therapists or counselors that would share similar values. I would say, I know for me, I had some that were faith based and some that weren't necessarily faith based, but they were helpful and their values were similar. And so I know for some that may be a little controversial, they would only refer to Christian counselors. And that's okay if that's your theory, but like Christian mechanics and Christian plumbers, you know, I just wanted somebody that knew how to do that well. And so, you know, I just think it's good to know your resources in town, take them out, vet them, and don't feel like the pressure that you have to be all things to all people. That's not what Paul's trying to say. So in that regard, as the scripture teaches.

Yeah, that's what came to mind for me. I think a lot of this has to do with our mindset as a pastor. And I've asked the question before that I really had to wrestle with. Am I the pastor because I'm the most spiritual person in the room and that's why they hired me, or am I the pastor because of God's call on my life? And if I realize I have this internal belief that says I'm the pastor because I'm the most spiritual person in the room, otherwise, why not give the other person the job? Then I do kind of carry that burden. I've got to have an answer for everything. I've got to be the know all, end all, be all for anything to do with the word of God. And if not, maybe I'm not qualified to be the pastor. And I would just say if you realize you're wrestling with that, which for many of the first years as a young pastor, I did, that is a heavy burden, my friend. And if I could do anything to encourage you to lay that down, do it, because that's not why you're the pastor. God has a call on your life, and that call includes that you have weaknesses, areas where you're not educated or informed. And it's okay to say I'm called to lead this church, but I've not been called to be the expert on divorce care, sexual addiction, drug and alcohol recovery. And that's why we have found really reliable partners that can help in this area. And I do wonder if sometimes pastors don't refer because they're just not sure who to refer to. And so that could be a great starting point. It would be well worth your time as the pastor to go and meet some of your local counselors and ask about their. Ask about their philosophy, ask about their pattern of care. And I think you might be pleasantly surprised that there are godly professionals in the area of mental health or, you know, addiction recovery who are also deeply biblical and don't have the title pastor or might not be from your denomination, but could really care and bring some expertise in a way that you couldn't. And so having that confidence to refer, not only because we're comfortable with the idea that I'm not the expert on everything, but also the confidence that I know an expert in this area and in the area of, obviously in sexual addiction and recovery, pure desire could be that expertise in your corner. That's why we're here. That's why we have a team of 20 clinicians that do all of Their work online so that people from anywhere can get the help they need. And we'd love to be a part of that process. For your church.

Yeah, I think I've. There's. I can't remember where I read it, but there's an element of maturity where you identify and acknowledge your limitations. And I think that that's really important. And I would just say if someone came to me as their pastor and asked me, my car's having issues, what do you think? Like, my limitations are? Is the check engine light on? Okay, cool. Take it somewhere else. Like, I'm not the guy.

Did you put gas in it?

Right?

Yeah.

Did you turn it on? Did you, like, roll it over? No. Okay. But, like, for that, if I didn't know my limitations and I rolled my sleeves up and I'm wearing my chino pants and I pull up the hood, I would get a mess, and I would ruin everything that that car has inside of it. But let's just say spiritually, for some reason, this was important. Someone came to me and says, hey, I'm trying to teach my son, little Billy, how to throw a baseball. Well, it's like, you know what? I have tons of experience. I played for a long time, played through college. I know what I'm talking about. I've even coached. I've got a little bit more knowledge and know how there. Sure. I can take you outside right now. Let's go work on some things. Or here are some tips. Like, those two things are not spiritual. Well, Rodney might argue me that those things are spiritual, but I don't think those things are spiritual.

How was your batting average?

That's what I wanted to. Spiritual.

I was, like, in the.280 range. Wasn't great. That's why I stopped in college. But I think that. That just to illustrate, if we know our limitations, it actually does the people more good if I'm willing to admit my limitations and refer them out.

Yeah. So, Rodney, let's think about this question, because I feel it could actually be a surprising motivation to pastors and churches to start groups, in what way could having pure desire groups, recovery, and betrayal in your church be a form of evangelism in our community?

Oh, man. When you have men and women that own their story and it's a part of what they share, how God has brought healing in their lives. To me, there's nothing more effective than somebody that has no shame and just says, well, here's what. God used to help me find healing. And it's amazing how just owning people's story can be a big resource for, you know, I think relationships are the best way we evangelize anyway. We're not just selling hell insurance. We're inviting people into healthy, transformative relationships with God and others. And so that person owning their stories and not being able to. Being able to share it to me, is always the best evangelism tool that any. Any church could have. You know, a transformed life.

Yeah, it's interesting, I would say, in some ways, because of the fear to address this issue, I think our culture or our world is a lot quicker to jump to this. But like, conversation about pornography, about sexual abuse, about sexual misconduct, sex trafficking, betrayal, all of that, the world is very willing to have those conversations. And I would just say it can be very refreshing when a Christian is willing to talk about those things or invite people into a space where you can process your own story. And so I think that we can leverage it that way. Like, don't. It's funny. It's almost more. In my opinion, I would say it's actually way more difficult to talk about this and bring it to a church than it is to bring it to someone who doesn't follow Jesus. Because these are narratives that are already playing out in our culture. And I would just say this. You can take advantage of that reality with this. And I'm not saying you need to go out in the middle of the street and be yelling, come to our pure desire groups. This is, you know, it's not necessarily meant to be an evangelistic tool, but I think because of where our world and culture is at in this moment, it can.

Yeah, I thought about this, too. I think it is hard for the church to always know how to talk about this and share, But I always thought, like, a billboard. You know, you see church billboards all the time. Something like, porn is a problem in your family, and we can help, you know, I wonder why more churches just don't. Aren't that bold. Because if a mom's driving by, praying for little Johnny, or a couple's in crisis, and you came across a billboard like that with a way to get ahold of a resource, talk about, like, an answer to prayer. You know what I mean? But sometimes we're not quite that brave and bold yet.

Yeah, absolutely.

Maybe someone will take me up on it.

Absolutely. This is an area of need. I mean, when people hit this as a crisis point in their relationship, I don't think they care if it's a church, a counseling office, the VFW hall. Like, if they hear there's a place that people are getting help, and it's saving marriages. It's often crisis that drives people too the church and to Christ and to saying, there's got to be a better way. And I believe that's something we're seeing happen in our culture is the moral bankruptcy of the current sexual agenda in our culture is creating more and more of a backwash of people saying, there has to be a better way. Look what this is doing to our families. Look at what this is doing to our kids, to our marriages. And I really believe it's a beautiful moment for the church to rise up and to shine a light of Christ on healthy sexuality. And that doesn't just mean, you know, save sex for marriage, but creating the full picture of healthy, godly sexuality and that recovery and freedom is possible. I just think there's an opportunity here where people are saying, wow, there's. There's something different there than what I'm experiencing, and I want to go check out what it is. And at the end of the process or along the way, they'll find out that truly the difference is Jesus. But the way we get there might be meeting them in a place of need that otherwise they're not going to hear about another thing. It's always an interesting conversation for me when someone says, so what do you do for a living? And I've come up with several different answers. But if they're really curious to know, sooner or later I will end up saying, well, I lead a nonprofit that is helping men and women overcome struggles with pornography and sexual addiction. And it is very consistent that if I am with someone who is a church attender, a Christian, that typically ends the conversation or changes the direction quickly. And if I am with a non believer, just someone who is not in it from a church background, their curiosity and their comfort level, like, wow, that's really cool. And I've had them say to me, that seems like a really significant problem in our world. I bet, you know, you've helped a lot of people, and you just even see in that moment, like there's a comfort level for people not in the church, that they're seeing it, they're dealing with it, they grew up around it. And to know that, like, there may actually be people that talk openly in a healthy way about a different way of doing life, I think is attractive. And so I would just say that there are opportunities there. And whether it's the billboard approach, as Rodney suggests, or just in the conversations of, hey, we have a way to help you in this area. I think people are drawn to that, and we could really look for that to happen in the coming years.

I'm just interested, Rod, now to see how many people, after listening to this episode, are going to start using billboards very, very effectively.

I love it. Well, I just want to say I agree with Nick's point. I mean, I sold the PD Resource at a airport bar restaurant before to somebody just talking about what you do, and, hey, that sounds cool. And how can I get a resource? And here's one right here, you know, so I would agree people are open to talking about these things.

Totally. All right, last question. And this is a flip side, really, of a previous question. This is more on the individual level, not on just the church leader or church as a whole level. What if my church isn't open to doing Pure Desire groups or any kind of recovery ministry? Should I leave my church? Is it even okay to leave my church? And what steps should I take if I find myself in this situation?

Well, I think your heart is always important. Pray and ask God if you can be part of the answer instead of part of the problem. Maybe your relationship with that key leader, church member, board member, whatever it is, maybe God would use you to help them show, see a better way to help people find healing. So I always love that phrase, be part of the answer, not part of the problem. And maybe God's brought you there to help that church. So be patient. Communicate to your leader where they can get educated to learn more about how to have an effective ministry. You know, for us, we had the heart to do it, but it was a guy named Joe McCarthy that went through Celebrate Recovery that said to me, rodney, would you come get educated about a ministry called Pure Desire with Ted and Diane Roberts? And that invitation is how Pure Desire got started at our church in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho. It was through an individual educating and inviting a pastor to come. And what a great opportunity to invite your pastor to come to our summit September 15 and 16 in the Troutdale area and say, pastor, there's a ministry. They do great job in helping churches. Can you and your spouse or our leadership team, or would you be willing to go with me to do this, even just to say, hey, we'll help you out, or whatever you can do to get that pastor to come to get educated to see that there's a real need and there's a wonderful resource that God continues to raise up to help men and women?

I totally agree with what Rodney has to say there. I think I've heard both. I've heard of the couple that said, we approached our church, we prayed, we tried, and we just felt there was a closed door. And God led us to this other church and they talk about the way they're thriving, they're helping with groups there. It's been amazing and I celebrate that. And I've heard the other story where a couple said, we felt called to stay. And we prayed and we watched and we waited. And maybe over a course of years, God did something. A new leader came in or there was something that happened that created openness in the church. And then the church was like, oh, we remember so and so talk to us about this and let's approach them. And they got to see that happen. So I don't think there's a right answer or wrong answer, but it really comes down to what is the spirit of God leading you into. And if you are in a place where you're like, my church is just totally closed to it and I'm praying for them, I feel called to stay. It is okay, in my opinion, that you're also helping lead groups at another church. That doesn't mean you're leaving your church. It just means that there is a passion you have to help others in an area that God has helped you. You know, it's the Second Corinthians one. I'm comforting others with the same comfort God has given to me. And if those opportunities aren't available in my church that I feel called to, I can use that part of my gift or a little bit of my time somewhere else or potentially even with pure desire as a part of one of leading our online groups. There. There are many ways that you could serve and be used in this area while you wait and hope and pray that God opens some doors in your church. And the only other thing I would say about it is as we approach this with humility, and I think that's key if we're ever talking to our pastors or leaders to come in with humility, not arrogance of, well, I know the better way and we're stupid because we're not doing it. And that will never go well on any topic. But if some humility we come in kind of to seek to discern and understand. Asking the question of, could you help me understand why we're not open to this, why this is a no? Maybe it's simply an issue of they're feeling overwhelmed and too busy. Maybe it's a lack of awareness. Maybe they've had a misperception of what Pure desire does or stands for. There's a lot of information out there about a lot of groups. And frankly, there's a lot of churches that in this area in particular have maybe had some negative experiences with maybe a more extreme group or someone that had an agenda or really guilted people or exposed them publicly with Stand up now and Go Tell your. And they're like, whoa, we just don't do that. And if we could discover that, like, oh, that's really good to know, would it be okay if I shared that? I think this is a really different approach. This is a different way, because if we just take no and assume we know why, we may be missing an opportunity. So I think in humility, trying to discern why they're resistant will help be part of the answer to your question. Because if you do get well, that's just not something our church ever does, will do or believes in and not here. Well, now you've got some clarity on, okay, if I choose to stay, what kind of environment am I staying in and why? And so, yeah, I think just asking good questions and humility, totally.

And I think, man, everyone, it seems like who's been through a pure desire group that I've talked to or been in recovery has some level of frustration with how their church addresses it or doesn't address it. And now there are those outlier churches that are crushing it and doing an excellent job. And we're so thankful for that. But I knew, I know for me, like, my church doesn't do it the exact way that I would want them to do it. And I have good relationships with my pastors and leaders and they know that, like, I, you know, people who know me know that I have no problem saying what I think I know.

Shock.

Yeah. Pause for a gasp, Nick.

And I don't know what you're talking about, Trevor.

Yeah, you. Rodney calls me a truth teller is what he says. That's what. That's the spiritual way. But for me, I need to be realistic about is this church healthy for my family overall. Like, they have an incredible kids ministry that my kids feel safe and they love it and we love it. They have an unbelievable women's ministry that my wife is just thriving in. And so for me to like, be sitting on my hands, like having this terrible attitude and like, grunting because they're not talking about sex and sexuality the exact way I want them to on stage to just to your point, Nick, like, be humble, like, is a move for my family the best thing just cause they're not talking about it the exact way that I want them to. In my experience, no. Like, in my situation specifically, no. But I also think that we need to be realistic with maybe your pastor or your leader is like, yeah, you totally can run a group. I've got no, like, here's a room. Go for it. Like, build it. Do your thing. But they're not talking about it from the stage. Like, you need to understand that there's still support there. They're still saying it's okay to run groups, it's okay to invite people, it's okay to have this at the church. But just because they're not ready to, like, shout it from the rooftops, from the stage doesn't mean that it's like, oh, okay, we can't go here and bail out. So I think that tied with that, I would say just be patient. This is one of the things. And Rodney knows this. Nick, I know you know this too, from you guys experience being pastors in a church that over time, the amount of groups that can grow and build is crazy. The amount of impact that God can do over years versus you've had a conversation six months ago and nothing has happened yet. It's like, well, you know, give it some time. So I think be realistic and be patient are my encouragements.

Yeah. Play the long game. You would say play the long game, right?

Yeah. We tend to underestimate what we can do in five years, but overestimate what we can do in one.

Yeah.

As a pastor, I appreciate both of you guys talking about humility, because humility looks good on everybody. And so coming to your leader with humility, and I think that's a good indicator, and hopefully assuming the best about your pastor, hopefully you're going to get met with humility that says, hey, if our church doesn't have it, I affirm that you go somewhere else on that night to get that help and get trained and get support, you know, and if your pastor is maybe against you getting help or getting support, that might be a good indicator for you, you know? But humility looks good on everybody.

Yeah. Well said.

All right, guys, this has been another great FAQ episode. Great. I think I'm grateful for everyone's perspective, for sure, but then also just the experience and that I know humility is something that both of you model and something that you guys are always learning and growing too. So it's. It's fun to be around, and I appreciate that. So thanks for the conversation, and Rodney, thanks for being with us. Joining us from Modesto California. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Sam.