Healing from the Betrayal Bind w/ Michelle Mays | Ep. 471

Michelle Mays, welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast. Good to have you with us.

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Yeah, we've been looking forward to this and looking forward to having you at the Pure Desire Summit. And since this is the first time on the podcast, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how in the world you ended up in this line of work? Because as most of us know, this isn't the kind of thing when we're little kids that we're like, man, I want to grow up and work in betrayal trauma or sexual addiction addiction. So tell us a little bit about your journey into this field.

Yeah, I think that's especially true because in my family there was like zero exposure to the therapy world, like zero. And so I, um, I was a poli-sci undergrad major, and then I was doing different things and I was bored and I was kind of looking for the thing that was interesting. And I had some people suggest to me to look in the counseling arena. So I started reading and studying, and I just found it endlessly fascinating. The learning curve goes on forever. And at the same time, I was married and I was in a relationship with somebody who was sexually addicted and also dealing with all of that. And so I ended up going and getting my graduate degree in counseling. And that dovetailed with me being able to kind of find some really good help and enter my own recovery process. Um, and so then when I got out of school, I started working with people who were impacted by betrayal. They started bringing their partners in. I really enjoyed working with all of it. I really enjoyed working with the addicted partner. I really enjoyed working with the betrayed partner, and I enjoyed working with the couple. And so I started doing that. I started working with whole system and I went and got my certification as a certified sex addiction therapist, eventually became a supervisor doing that and have been working in that arena now for over 25 years. Wow. Yeah.

That's going back a ways. You're one of the earlier pioneers in this area, I would say.

Yeah, it was back. I got my CSAT back when it was Patrick Carnes doing all the training.

OG. Straight from the source.

Yeah, yeah, only a 2-week certification instead of the 4 mods that it is now. Yeah. Wow.

Well, thank you for sharing that. I know, um, you know, I, I love that you do work with the 3 sides, you know, the couple, the trade spouse, and the addict spouse, because you're— I mean, I don't know if you, if you guys listening are subscribed to Michelle's blogs or watch her YouTube videos, but just the content that comes in, it's Some days it's, wow, this is perfect for the addict, or this is so encouraging, and this gives so much clarity, um, for what we're going through in a dynamic with a couple, you know, that's struggling. So I, I love that you kind of do all three sides and, and tailor to that, because sometimes you have to go over here to get help for betrayal, and you have to go over here to get help for, uh, the addicted spouse. Um, but, but at least your book and your blogs and your YouTube— and I'm not as familiar with your offerings— um, are so encouraging. So thank you so much for everything that you pour in. It's very thorough and just broken down where people can explain it, which I appreciate.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, I, I, I think I think in terms of systems. And so to me, everything happening is part of the relational system. And if you don't understand how everything is impacting everything else, you don't have a really holistic picture. So if you're working with the betrayed partner, but you don't understand every other part, you're not gonna really do a great job of helping the individual, in my mind, just in terms of how I think. So I think that's pretty fair to say.

I think that's pretty fair and accurate.

One of the, uh, things you're known for is a great book that you've written called The Betrayal Bind, and I think that's a fascinating title. So could you just unpack for us a little bit what is the betrayal bind that people experience?

Yes.

So, I mean, and don't give the whole book away because we still want people to buy it.

Yeah, but give them an overview. There's so much in the book like this will not give the whole book away. The book is quite a journey, but—

Good.

The betrayal bind itself is really pointing to the unique dynamic that happens when the person who's our primary attachment figure is the person who becomes the source of pain in our relationship. And this idea draws on early attachment theory research. So when the early research was done with infants and toddlers and young children about how they responded when in their relationship with their caregivers who were their primary attachment figures, when they encountered inconsistent attunement all the way, like on a continuum, all the way from that to overt abuse, then how they responded to that dynamic and the dilemma of somebody who was not safe to connect to. And what that research showed is that when a primary attachment figure truly becomes unsafe, like we're down the continuum a little bit here, right? Not just misattuned, but really unsafe, that it creates an incredible dynamic in the attachment system of the person because their attachment system and their threat response system come into conflict. So normally our attachment system and our threat response system sync up really well. So like if you have something stressful happen with your kids or you have something stressful happen at work, your instinct is to reach out to your partner. You want to call them, you want to text them, and that's your attachment system and threat response system working well. I feel distress, I want to reach for connection. And what happens when our primary attachment figure becomes the source of our pain is that now those two systems are in conflict. And so our attachment system still says, I'm in distress. This is the person I normally reach for. So I need to reach for them. But then our threat system says, and yet they are the danger. They are the one who has caused us the pain. So we actually need to pull away from them and we need to distance from them and we need to protect ourselves in some way. And so this is what I call the betrayal bind, is this dynamic of now I'm caught where the person who is my primary attachment figure is also the person who has harmed me. And I don't know how to— I'm now like chaotically moving around, sometimes wanting closeness, sometimes wanting distance, sometimes pushing away, sometimes reaching. And confusing the heck out of my partner, who's like, am I coming or am I going here, right? So everything feels very chaotic in this moment in relationships. But it's actually your neurobiology. It's your— how your body is wired to respond to this very unique attachment dilemma that happens in our, in our long-term relationships when our long-term partner becomes a source of danger for us.

Yeah, that's so good. And I think every betrayed spouse who hears you explain that is like, yes, that is exactly what happens inside. It just feels like a war of two worlds and the push-pull, and I want to be close but not. Um, so that, that just— I don't know, it's just so validating to hear that it's not just, um, overreacting or, um you know, an emotional response, but it's, it's physical and emotional and, and spiritual. It's all of it.

Yeah, it is bodily based. And I think honestly, like, we do evaluations with people who go through our coaching program, and this is one of the things that I'm always astonished that it is such a huge thing for people, but it's probably— it probably gets mentioned more than anything else about how normalizing this is such a big piece of settling their system and actually helping them start to have a sense of agency again. Because I think that a lot of people, when they're bouncing through this, they feel like something is wrong with them. And they're like, what is wrong with me that I'm reaching for this person who hurt me? What is wrong with me that then the next minute I hate them? Like, am I sick? Am I— am I like— I have— do I have no dignity? Am I codependent? You know, there's all those— these things that come up for people, and I think when they find out, no, actually you're normal, and this is, your body is responding the way it's wired to respond, it's very settling and relieving for them.

Yeah, it makes me think of what one of our other summit speakers says, Dr. Curt Thompson. He says, you know, what we think is important, but actually what we think about what we're thinking is more important. And maybe what we think about what we think about what we're thinking, or he'll use the word feel, what we feel about what we're feeling about what we're feeling. The place where someone is stuck in that conflict, if they're saying to themselves, "Oh, I'm crazy, what's wrong with me?" And then you or others come along and explain to them, "Hey, this is a natural system. You've got two brain systems designed to work for you that are now in conflict. This is normal." And now they can have self-compassion to what they're feeling. And rather than feeling shame or guilt or like, "What's wrong with me?" Like, "Hey, this is normal." And then they're able to kind of analyze the different reactions and decide, well, which ones are valid? Do I want to lean into? And, and I do want to work on attachment, or where have I determined it's unsafe and attachment is not something I should be reaching out for? I'm going to need to find a different person for safe attachment. And I, I think you, you hit the nail on the head to say it's, it's validating of something people are experiencing but don't realize until someone comes along and says, hey, this is actually quite normal, that we can take a deep breath and go, oh, Okay, now that I know that it's normal, I can kind of analyze it a little better and decide which direction I want to head in or what pieces I want to hold on to and work on or what pieces I want to let go of.

Yeah, I think that is really well said. And I would say just picking up kind of on one of the pieces you said is that a lot of times I have people say to me, well, how do I, how do I get out of it? How do I make it stop now that I understand it? Like, how do I— like, I need to get off the roller coaster, you know? And I'm always like, it's not going to stop because it's how your body is wired. And what I really want people to do is to have an understanding of what's happening, to have the compassion around it, but then to also feel like, okay, now that I understand this, I can make some choices. I can decide, oh hey, I need some connection. With you. And if I talk to you about what has happened between us relationally, we will fight. So can we not talk about it, but could we take a walk? You know, or could I in some way sit next to you and have a sense of connection with you for a while? Or I've spent the whole day incredibly angry and I actually need space this evening. I need you to give me room and I need you to not crowd me because I will be angry if you do, because I am angry right now. And it's that ability to now start to make some choices about which thing do I need in any given moment, and how do I use my voice to ask for that, that I think is really— starts to move people into a more of an empowered place with what they're dealing with.

It, it's so, uh, this is why we need therapy and why we need groups, because it is like It is like slicing the smallest little things apart to, to understand even what you need, especially if you've been somebody who you weren't modeled what it looks like to have healthy, uh, to express healthy needs, or to express needs and meet them in a healthy way, or express emotions, or that all feelings were okay to, to have. Um, it, it takes like a work of God to be able to get to the point of realizing exactly what you need. And then to add the complexity of these two systems, it's, it's never just one answer. It's really paying attention to what you're feeling and thinking. And I remember reading in Created for Connection, Sue Johnson and Kevin something, and talking about when connection is supposed to be available, like why you can feel so dysregulated in the same room because it's supposed to be there, but it's it's inaccessible or unsafe. And, and that just opened up my mind too, to, to be able to talk with John, my husband, and say, remember that time in my life which was like 2 years ago when my hair fell out because I was so stressed out and dysregulated? Like, something emotional and stressful and in my mind caused my body to respond and fall apart. And that was really eye-opening for him. And so later then, when I was feeling really triggered, I was able to say It's those same feelings that I had back when my hair fell out. Like, there's a, there's a physical consequence here if I stay, just like let myself stay in this state. And so it was good for, um, just for both of us to recognize, even for the, the, you know, the struggling spouse to say, oh, this is, this is very real and has a physical impact and is physical. And it's not just drama or being controlling or asking too much, but there's, there's a physical sense of not feeling safe. And so it's, it's beneficial for both, both sides to fully understand that. And, and then what do we need? What would make you feel more safe, less safe? And then do those things.

Yeah. And I think it can't really be overstated that this is a bodily-based thing that is happening. It's not something that's happening in your mind. It is something that's happening in your body. Your mind is making meaning up about it. And your mind is making decisions, right? But the experience, the feelings, all of that is happening in the body at the level of your nervous system. So it is a bodily-based experience that you're in. And that, I think, again, you can't overstate that enough for people to help them under— because I think often we sort of act like we're heads walking around cut off from our bodies. Yeah. But we're not, we're not. And everything that's happening in our nervous system is driving what we're doing.

But how do you help frame the reality of betrayal and its impact for somebody? Um, because it does seem like whether you're way on this end of the spectrum and you are just, you know, let it go, don't dwell on the negative. You're, you shouldn't go back and dig up old traumas, or even you are in this and you do it. You know, you're experiencing it and you're trying to heal from it. But like you said, there's deeper understanding of this. I can't overemphasize, this is bodily based. How do you approach people who feel like, or who, who believe that betrayal trauma isn't real, or, um, you know, that it doesn't really have the impact that it does?

Such an interesting question because I don't really run into that too much, you know what I mean? I'm sure those folks exist, but I don't run into it very often.

Um, you should probably talk to a few more pastors then. Because I would say that's not uncommon.

I was just thinking to myself, this might be really your audience.

Yeah, because people who come to you, they're like, we need help, this is happening, help us.

Like, we are in it, we're in the washing machine, help us out, right? Yeah, you know, honestly, I— where I go with that is kind of like, I would almost want to know, like, why do you need it to not be real? Oh, that's good. Like, I would be really curious about what is the fear that if this gets named, if we really look at the level of harm, if we really look at the negative consequences, the experience of offense that has happened, what is the fear that is there? What are we afraid of? By looking at it and naming it and allowing it to be true, because to me when we're trying to paint over something or pave over something, we're doing that for a reason. We're avoiding something. We're afraid of something. So I would almost feel like I would want to know what is the fear about? Like, what are we afraid of here? Right. If we really acknowledge this.

I think that's a powerful answer. And if I were to give my response, I think part of it is in Christian communities, there is kind of that mindset of like, hey, everybody struggles, or in particular, all men struggle. You know, it's just porn. You know, it's— yeah, it's not good. Try not to— try to stop it. But, you know, really, can you? There's kind of this idea of like, can you really stop it? Can you really stop lusting? Because all men just have this issue. So we've, we've in some ways almost talked ourselves into a level of acceptance and minimization and rationalization that then to come along and say, oh, and in a marriage, this causes deep, impactful wounding trauma. Suddenly those two messages don't fit together. It's like, well, wait a minute, both can't be true. It can't be no big deal and all guys struggle and, you know, do your best, but you're probably always going to struggle, and it's deeply wounding. One or the other does not fit in that equation. I think that's part of where in particular faith leaders and Christians might struggle, because we've learned to adapt to, well, we're just not real sure what to do with this, so we downplay it until we see the impact in a relationship. Then it's like, Oh, this is serious, this is hurtful, but we don't really know what to do with that. So we maybe question if, if someone's just overreacting or creating something that's not there, even though experientially, like you said, we can see it's happening. We can see like this spouse is really torn up over this. Something's going on that maybe doesn't align with the ways we've tried to downplay the behavior in people's lives.

Here's what I think is fascinating about that. Is that if you're in a faith community— to me, if you're in a faith community, then you actually ought to be the people who are at the forefront of saying, here's the level of healing that's possible. Yes. And if instead what you're doing is downplaying things like pornography addiction and sex addiction, and everybody struggles, so let's just like you are ignoring the level of healing that is possible. And instead of calling people to recovery and calling people to healing, and calling people to being who they are, who they are supposed to be in the world, you have instead sort of said, actually, there isn't healing for this. That recovery isn't possible. We can't actually be our best selves. I just find that a really interesting juxtaposition within the faith community. And I think you have to start at the side of how are we going to really think about unhealthy sexuality for men and women? But how are we going to really think about the level of healing that's actually possible here instead of then turning to the people who are impacted by it and saying, actually, let's downgrade that?

Yeah, I, you know, I think you're actually really kind of getting into the heart of it from, you know, things I'm passionate about and what I see that that most churches and most pastors don't know how to handle this issue. And, and we've preached about it and we've told people not to, but they're still struggling. And it's like, I gave you everything I know, like it's sin, don't do it, and you're still doing it. I'm not sure what else to say because we haven't really been trained in understanding healthy sexuality and addiction and the brain and all these things that Pure Desire is here to try to help with and help the church understand. But if you haven't done any of that, and the preaching you have done isn't working, what you're left with is like, well, we don't really know what to do with it, so now we just kind of push it off on the side and go, well, it's not that big of a deal. But I love what you're saying, Michelle, that like this is an opportunity for the church. This is an opportunity for faith leaders to rise up and say, no, no, we know this kind of behavior is not okay and we believe it's deeply harmful, and we also have the tools and the message that can lead people to a place of deep and significant healing. But you're right, if we don't have the tools, if we don't have the pathway, then we're likely to just try to kind of shove it off to the side and not have to deal with it. And when a voice comes forward saying, hey, this is really hurting me, it's like, uh, we don't know what to do with that. We're going to just try to kind of minimize it. And I just see a lot of churches are stuck in that pattern right now.

Yeah. And I mean, this is like a whole conversation, right? But I also think just based on what you've just said, like, it would require churches to rethink their understanding of sin. Because I think that the idea of sin often when it's preached in churches is like, sin is black and white, and it's a cognitive choice. Versus actually, human beings are incredibly complicated creatures. And your nervous system and your attac— all these motivational instinctive systems are driving your behavior. And I think you'd have— it's, it's like kind of challenging all these really, I don't even know what you would call them, but deeply held structures in faith communities that need rethinking around them to be able to really deal with human beings as they are actually created. This is just my opinion, but this is my opinion.

I think you're absolutely right.

Yeah, I think those are both good. Um, I know that from some of the emails that we get, Um, it will— we have had a few, a good few of my wife joined a Betrayal and Beyond group and then divorced me. And so they're mad at our material and they're mad at, um, you know, the process. But what really happened was she started becoming very aware of what the trauma that was happening to her and, and putting in good boundaries. And, and usually when we dig, almost always when we dig a little more, there's still this repetitive pattern of behavior happening. And it's like, well, I'm trying. And it's like, yes, but you're also still continuing to injure her and injure her and injure her. And she got to the point where it said— she said, I couldn't take anymore. And so, um, it's like it comes in as this isn't— this material, you know, kind of brainwashes women, which was kind of back to the original question. And, and then we get to it, it's like, oh, you, you want to keep doing your behavior without her being able to say You can keep doing that, but I'm not going to be around it anymore.

Right. Yeah. I think that is, it's so important, right? Because I mean, the question that came up when you said that is like, well, did you need to be divorced? It might be that you needed to be divorced.

Another dynamic we see happening with betrayed spouses is sometimes they don't want to go back. They don't want to look at their own story. It's like, it's his problem, or this is something that's been done to me. And I, there's kind of an avoidance going on. So how do you help someone that might be in that kind of avoidance state of mind understand how past attachment issues, family of origin, caregivers, whatever the case might be, how, how do you help them connect those past attachment issues with what's happening in their attachment currently in their relationship if they're maybe stuck in some avoidance patterns?

Yeah, I mean, two things come to mind on that. I mean, number one, I think avoiding something is a nervous system strategy. It's a strategy that our threat response system has to something that feels so overwhelming that we feel like we can't tolerate feeling it, connecting to it, having contact with it emotionally. It's like a burning hot stove that we can't touch. And so we will avoid it because it truly feels like it's gonna blow us out of our capacity. So part of it's a nervous system issue. And then I, and we have to expand our capacity to be able to come close to it. So we have to have people help us be able to tolerate coming close to it. And then the second thing that often is there when people are in this place is a lot of shame. And, you know, with betrayal, often the minute betrayal is discovered, an enormous load of shame comes over onto the betrayed partner. There's cultural shame. There's just the shame from betrayal. That lands on them. They feel like something's wrong with me that this has happened. You know, I'm being rejected. I'm being— I'm unwanted. All of those shame messages. And then it can feel like a way of trying to repudiate the shame. I call this repudiating shame. It's a coping strategy that I talk about. I'm repudiating. I'm trying to get the shame off me by saying, hey, it's your problem, not mine. Let me make sure I tell everybody all the crap you have done so that they know who the bad guy is here. Um, I'm not going to go get help because what if when I go get help, I end up feeling like it's my fault. So all of these avoidance strategies are often also about trying to avoid shame or get the shame off of you. And so we have to work with the shame piece too, to help somebody move out of that place.

And I think one of the things we try to do is assure that spouse that we're not trying to invite you into your past story to create fault or blame, or like, well, let's understand why you, you know, were insufficient in your marriage. Like, not at all. We're inviting you to go back to understand why the pain of this current moment might be striking you in a unique way that connects to what happened in your family of origin or what you learned about relationships and and where you maybe thought, you know, this current relationship was safe, you found out it was unsafe in a way that might have mimicked some relationships in your past. And it all kind of ends up going into the grinder together. And if we're only aware of the current piece but don't have a connection to our own story, we're probably going to have more difficulty hearing healing in the current moment because we're not aware of the impact of our own story on the current moment. So I, I think if there's that, that graciousness to the spouse of saying it's It's not in any way to try to ask like, well, how did you cause this? Because unfortunately in some Christian circles that is still happening. Like, well, what, why are you to blame? What's your fault in this? Like, that's not the case at all. We're inviting you to understand your story better so you can see what does it look like in this current moment to really move towards healing and safety.

Yeah, and I would add to that too, that I do feel like there's like a, there's a nuance to that. And the nuance would be like, at what point do you invite the person to look at their story?

Yeah.

Right.

Because I think that for some betrayed partners, if you go too quickly to family of origin or history, it can feel like you're not holding the present day distress and, and the present story, like there, there isn't enough holding of that. And recognize— recognizing what's happening in the present. So I think there's a timing issue of when you go back and start to do that other work too.

Yeah, Ashley, you can speak to that because that's one of the very reasons we redid and reorganized our betrayal material.

Yeah, I was definitely, uh, re-injured. You know, you talk about church injuries when we go to a church, and I received church harm when I went to them from— for help. And then we also— our older Betrayal and Beyond book you know, did have family of origin work in it. And, um, and way too soon, way too soon. And so, um, that, that did, you know, that did hang even myself and my husband up a little bit because exactly what you described, Michelle, when we're trying to talk about a current betrayal, a current rupture, psychologically, sexually, emotionally, spiritually, and then we're saying, well, you know, you kind of raised yourself and you didn't have parents around and you have control issues, and it's like, well, my my husband has been looking at porns and hiring people for sex for 30 years, even before me, you know. So it did— it feel— it felt, um, like it was taking some of the responsibility of what he needed to do off of him and putting some on me. And I did feel that shame of, well, it's because I'm controlling, so I should not ask for these certain things because then it's just doubling down on those things of my childhood. It was really unhelpful. So Heather and I, um, we, we went through the ABSATS training and we revised Betrayal and Beyond and made it partner sensitive, um, a few years ago. And so it is— I, and I, I love the way that some of your blogs have come across where you do address, you know, um, how, how we do that work. But it, but it does need to happen after. I mean, I feel like that's that's like marriage work, you know, like the betrayal is, is separate and it causes problems in the marriage, but it's not like your typical marriage, like you don't just go to counseling and say, oh, and by the way, we need to deal with this betrayal, you know. So, um, yeah, just I love how you said it's a timing issue, and I, I definitely see that the betrayal is its own beast and it's, it's very, very painful. And then as a married couple who's worked through everything. There's, there's an appropriate time for that couple's work. And, and like, what do we both bring in? And what are both of our family histories, right? I mean, that seems like the pattern.

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. It's, uh, timing is everything in the betrayal recovery process. And the right intervention at the right time makes all the difference.

So Michelle, we touched on this a little bit, but I want to let you go a little deeper with it. How would you respond to a Christian leader, pastor, who fears that focusing on betrayal recovery will embolden spouses to leave their marriage? And in what way would you say that a healthy, growing person who's recovering from betrayal creates the greatest environment for a marriage to ultimately succeed?

Yeah, I mean, when I think about the first half of the question, I think, I think sometimes in faith communities, marriage can be made a bit of an idol. And it's almost like the marriage, the institution is more important than the people within it. And so to me, this fear of like, if, if a, if a betrayed partner starts to heal and starts to get connected with who they really are and their sense of ability to make choice and to move into empowerment, they might leave a relationship. Then the question is, well, well, is that a relationship that needs to be left? Because it might be. And I think we have to ask people to be willing to consider that there are relationships that need to end because what's happening within them is too harmful to the people within it. So I think that's one, but maybe the first half of the question.

Yeah.

And then the second half of the question about, you know, how do, how do we repair relationships? Like, and here's the thing, like, I have seen and worked with so many couples who have repaired their relationships. The first thing I would want to say is it's absolutely possible to do that. And not just like sort of settled, but, but have truly healed the relationship and flourished together afterward. And the thing that you have to have for that to work, for that kind of recovery to happen, is both people have to be all the way in. That you can't have one person who's in and one person who's half in. It is both people, both feet in, completely committed to overhauling their whole relationship. Because betrayal is something that, you know, because it's sexual in nature, sometimes you can focus there, but it actually is a whole relationship dynamic. And the whole relationship has to get rethought about and really reoriented in order to fully heal and recover afterward.

Yeah, that is so good. And, um, again, we, we get some pastors that, um, really don't, don't believe that divorce is ever an option, or, you know, and I think that does feed into the fear of betrayed spouses figuring out what they need. And, um, And unfortunately, it's really sad that there are some communities where it's like, we don't question, you just need to be submissive, and your husband is your covering, you need to pray for him, you need to be a good support. All those things are great, and your husband needs to be a safe person. And so, um, I'm really glad that you spoke about that because in the church community it can be such a hot and divisive topic, um, of setting boundaries, ultimatums, I'm quoting, you know, and, um, and asking for divorce that, that just like fires up some church staff.

Yeah. Well, and I would say even the list of things you said, I would say none of that is great in my, in my opinion. Like, so I was just going to say that. And yeah, I think there is a real, like. A lot of that thinking is, quite honestly, it's an invitation for abuse to happen.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, I like that you said that sometimes we're too focused on trying to preserve the marriage. And if what we mean by the marriage is that it's been filled with deception, lies, harmful behavior, sexual acting out, like, that's— we don't actually want to preserve that. We want to help that couple rebuild something much better and new and different than what they've had. And so if that's our perspective, as you've pointed out, Michelle, there may be a realization of both couples are not willing to work towards that. And the marriage that we're trying to preserve is one that would still include harm and deception and sexual acting out. And it's like, we should not be fans of trying to preserve that, but we should be fans. And we've seen the same, like we have seen couples recover from literally anything. Now, that doesn't mean they always will, but we have seen the most extreme stories when both couples are willing to lean in, practice honesty, stay humble, do the hard work. But what they build isn't just going back to the marriage. They're building something wonderful and new that they'll say, we never had a marriage like this before, and we're so glad we made it here, which is pretty fun to see.

Yeah, it really— honestly, it's amazing to see it. I would say we— I think we were talking at the beginning, I don't know if we were recording it or not, about a program that we have where we take 10 couples and walk with them for a year. And they're all couples who are, you know, 3 to 4 years into the process and repairing the relationship. And they're repairing huge, big stories of devastation. But it is amazing to see what happens when both people are willing to fully, fully reconsider who they are and reconsider how to do the relationship and really lean into the vulnerability. Of that with one another. It's, yeah, it's one of my favorite things I do working with the couples in that program.

One of the things we always hear, and just what you said relates to that, is the number of couples or individuals, 'cause you don't have to come as a couple. We have betrayed spouses who are thriving and growing and they wanna come to the summit. We have struggling spouses who their betrayed spouse is not ready to engage at that level, but they come to the summit. And by and large, we hear people say in this room or in this event, I experienced people who get it, that know what I'm going through. So many of them have walked that road before. There's no shame, there's no secrecy, there's no tiptoeing around it. Like, we've, we've lived it. We've been there. And I think when you're in a room of people that can relate to your story with compassion and care and, and empathy, it does something for us of feeling seen and legitimizing so much of what we've talked about today that, man, this is there's things going on in my body and I don't always understand it, but, but I'm working through a process. My brain is trying to readjust to a new reality. And, and when other people come alongside and go, oh yeah, me too, here's what that looked like for me, it is so life-giving. And we're just excited to have you be a part of that, that event and to have people meet you in person that haven't had that chance before. So, Michelle, this has been awesome. Where can people go if they want to learn more about you, hear more of your stuff? And then is there any final advice that you'd like to leave with our audience today on how we can rise and rebuild after betrayal?

Yeah, folks can find me at michellemayes.com and relationalrecovery.com, both of the websites. And, um, how to rise and rebuild after recovery, I would say, I mean, gosh, I would say believe that it's possible for just for the starting thing is to really truly believe that not, not only is it possible to heal, but truly to flourish again afterward. Because I do, I hear a lot from people who are kind of like, this is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Yeah. And it's actually like, no, that's actually not true. It does not have to be. It's not a life sentence. You can really fully heal from this.

I, I agree. I say come and listen to Michelle. You will You will feel validated. You will have dots connect, light bulbs go off. Um, if you're the struggling spouse, you will also understand more of what's happening in your betrayed spouse. Um, I just think there's going to be so much that we probably can't even, you know, express here just by being in there. And then, you know, there's the Holy Spirit, and there's just— each individual person is going to take away, I think, exactly what they need in that in that summit and in your talk. So come and join.

Yeah, I think about the way I end every podcast, you know, I say, you are not alone. And I don't just mean like there's other people here. I mean, like, your experience, though it is unique to you, it's your story. So many people have experienced it too and are going, yeah, me too, that's what I've experienced. But when we're in it, it may be our only experience of marriage, it may be our only experience of betrayal, and we're like, were feeling the feelings of, am I crazy? What's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? And, and to know like, oh yeah, that's what happens in betrayal. That's what happens when this implodes in our marriage. That, that's what people go through. And I'm not alone. Yes, my story is unique and the work I will need to do is unique to me, but the experience I'm having is, is not a unique different thing. That we're together in this and we've learned a lot about how to heal from betrayal how to understand what's happening in the brain, in the body. And that's why I'm so glad to have experts like Michelle Mays and others on our team that'll be talking about betrayal and couples recovery and when it's possible. And, and we know there are so many unique intricacies to every story, like what about this and what about that? And I, I think the summit and the podcast, these are a place that people can come and get some of those questions answered to figure out what is best for them. What does their recovery need? Right now. And I think the summit is a great part of that. So we know that betrayal creates deep wounds, but healing and rebuilding are possible when trust is broken. As we've heard today, the pain impacts the body, the mind, and the soul. And acknowledging that reality is the first step towards restoration. Healing is not about staying stuck in the pain, but about creating safety, rebuilding secure attachment, and becoming whole again. And we're big fans of that. And we are big fans of Michelle Mays. So Michelle, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast., and we look forward to seeing you at the Pure Desire Summit.

Thanks so much for having me.

Bye.

Yeah. Well, to you, our listener, thanks for joining in. We hope you'll be at the summit, whether live in person in Nashville or virtually online in our streaming audience. We know you'll be encouraged and invite some friends to join in with you. And if you're a fan of today's content, if this show has meant something to you, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review. All of these are ways that more people can find this life-giving content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at PureDesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.