Health For The Holidays: Navigating Family (FULL EPISODE)

Hello. Hello. Welcome to the Pure desire podcast on YouTube. I am your host, Trevor Windsor. This is a weekly podcast helping you take back your life from the effects of unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Sexual brokenness impacts us all. Men and women who are stuck in shame and are unsure if healing is actually possible. Church leaders who want to help but don't know where to start. Parents who don't know how to help their kids develop sexual integrity. Wherever you're at, this podcast is for you. Through sharing stories of healing, interviewing addiction and betrayal experts, and normalizing the conversation on sexuality, we offer a clear plan for recovery and healing from the effects of unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. You have what it takes to break free, heal your relationships, and take back your life. Make sure to, like, share and subscribe to the channel. It helps us so much and really just pushes our message forward. All right, with that, let's get to this week's episode. Ashley Jameson, thanks for being back on the Pure Desire podcast.

Thank you for having me back.

It's like, without fail. It's not like you started so great. Like, thank you for having me back. Like, I don't understand why I speak so much.

To be fair, right as you said, start. I was moving my wireless keyboard so that I could put my notebook there, and then I didn't realize we were going.

Okay, well, we're not going to start over. We're already into this.

Trials and tribulations of a podcast guest.

Seriously. Okay, so today we're starting week one of our December series that we are calling Health for the Holidays. Isn't that so catchy? It's so great. Today we're actually going to start this conversation by talking about navigating family. And you can insert, like, dum, dum, dum. You know, like, it's just. It is something that so many of us experience, and that's why we're gonna talk about it. That's why we're starting here. So with that, let's just jump in. Ashley, as we start this series, I think it's important to establish this. Why overall, is maintaining recovery and healing so difficult during the holiday season? Like, this is our, I think, our third time going through a December series where we're talking about how difficult the holidays are. Why is that?

Oh, yeah. So I. I have found a couple things that make it difficult. One is just the dynamics of managing, like, different families colliding their routines, their rituals, his family, her family, and then, as you have kids, our family. But then there's just, like, things like overspending overeating, lack of routine. If you have a routine where you're get up in the morning and read your Bible and you go work out and you are in relationship with your guys and group, but maybe they're canceled because of holidays, so just everything is kind of thrown off and, and we talk about stress being just change. It's not necessarily good or bad, but when we have a lot of change, which holidays bring, more spending, more eating, gift buying, tension, stressors with family, it just adds a lot to the holiday and, and it's easy to derail ourselves. And then we find ourselves at New Year's going, that was crazy. Okay, I want to start fresh now that it's New Year's, seriously. And I never really thought that family dynamics were going to affect me. You hear about like in laws and stressors with families and before I was married, I'm like, that's, that's for people who are dramatic and don't know how to handle relationships. But just simple things, even good things, can throw us off and cause a lot of anxiety and stress or having expectations that aren't met. That was something I struggled with as a new mom and wife having this fantasy family and how it would look and that's not how it looked or how it felt inside. So then it was disappointing.

Yeah. I personally blame the Hallmark Channel for most of this, among many other things.

I mean, there's a lot you can.

Put in the movie. You watch these holiday movies and you know, every family is perfectly dressed, every home is perfectly decorated, every child is perfectly behaving. You know, people find love, fall in love, grow in relationships. It always snows at the end and you kiss on the front porch and it's like, ah. And whether we, you know, we can watch a movie and we know that's fake. Right. We know that's not realistic. But there's still a part of our brain, I think, that creates an expectation. And you used the word, Ashley. That's what I jotted down is I think it's having unmet or unrealistic expectations either that we place on ourselves or our kids or our marriage or our families, or they get placed on us about how we should act. Or, oh, we thought you guys were coming, or why didn't you do this? Or you know, it's, it's Christmas, can't you just do this for them? And, and maybe you feel like, man, there are all kinds of triggers and it takes me back into unhealthy patterns and sometimes we need to just take that Deep breath and step back and say, where are these expectations coming from? And are they realistic? Are they. Are they really based on reality or something? We've created Christmas to be. And so I, I think if, you know, we didn't have social media and Hollywood and all these things that create expectations, and we just stepped back. There are many parts of the holidays and Christmas that are very beautiful and family oriented and, you know, unique opportunities to celebrate our faith. And, you know, the Christmas Eve service is one of my favorites. Those. Those sorts of things that if, if we just experience them in and of themselves, there might be a lot of good to them. But we might sit there going, man, my kids are not really listening. And that family picture we took didn't come out right because so. And so wouldn't, you know, pay attention. Just. Yeah, all the other stuff that gets added. So I, I think it's healthy for us to just look at what are the expectations and where do they come from? Because if we can manage that, it makes a huge difference.

Yeah, I think what comes to mind for me is that there's this external pressure that we should be, that we're forced to be with family and be with, you know, people that are close to us and then also enjoy it to your point of expectations. And so it feels like this inner battle of. But I'm not looking forward to this time. I don't want to be with these people. I just want to sit at home and, you know, drink a hot toddy by myself in front of the fire or something like that. Right. Like. But I think there's this pressure and maybe it's, you know, culture, maybe it's Instagram, maybe it's Hallmark Channel, maybe it's even in the church that this should be a time of family and a time to be with the people that you love. And when then there's that pressure met with. Actually, I don't actually want to be with these people. There's this inner turmoil that happens. And yeah, inner turmoil is never good for recovery and healing. We had to process through that stuff, which in my opinion, is why we're having this conversation.

Well, and some people do want to be with family, so let's acknowledge that.

Praise the Lord for that. Absolutely.

And for many of us, it's a mixture of the people that I really want to see are also in the same vicinity of people I may have real difficulties with. And I think there's just so many challenges that come up. And so to that point, Ashley, why are we talking about family? What is it that can be so difficult about navigating family during the holidays. Maybe even more so than other times of the year.

Every. Everything. I feel like we could probably spend like a episode on all the complexities of navigating family because for me, I had a blended family. So I brought in my twin boys at 5 years old into John's family. And so I already had my rhythm of being a single mom and meeting with, you know, having my boys spend time with me and then meeting with Liam's family and switching the kids off. And so then when I joined John's family, it's like, oh, we always do Thanksgiving at 1:30 in the afternoon, which totally cut into my ability to give my boys to my ex husband. And so then I felt grief and you know, and just what are we supposed to bring or now, you know, we have all these children. John and I have the four kids and we have the biggest family out of our, you know, our extended family. So then it's like, oh, here come the Jamesons with all their kids and they're noisy. Which is like, that's what we like, you know.

Been there.

Yeah, yeah, it's like, that's what we like. But then it's like, you know, on, on one of our side of family, it's like they're the kind that like mute the commercials at the super bowl or football or, you know, and it's like, no, you know, so it's just right. Even navigating little things like that can, can be like a bubble burster for your expectations. You like you said, Nick, with the Hallmark Channel, I'd find myself cooking and doing these projects in the kitchen and then people in my family, as Trevor calls them, these people would not enjoy what I was doing for them and they weren' joy out of these little traditions I was trying to make. So then I was getting frustrated and I just had to re evaluate all of my expectations with that even just that our families are not going to blend perfectly. But it's a compromise of what's healthy for our families, what's an adequate amount of time and, and at what stage in mine and John's family do we kind of break off a little and make our own traditions and memories for our kids, which then becomes disappointing for his family. Or if we find that, you know, there's some unhealthy dynamics for John's recovery that come out of the family, then we may not have as much time together during the holiday season. And that creates this other like, I guess, level of blame that Ashley and John are isolating themselves, but really, this is what we need for our family.

Yeah.

And so you add that with just normal holiday stress, like I said, spending, eating for this year, our family's going through grief from losing my brother, and my mom has some health issues with her, you know, just losing her son that we're going to be navigating. So our holiday season is going to look completely different. So I think the holidays are a time where you're supposed to stop and enjoy family. That's what we're told. Stop and be with family and enjoy family and be thankful. But for some of us, it just exacerbates our triggers. It accentuates the grief we've experienced. It adds stress because of finances or time or busyness. Or maybe we have these kids that people don't understand why they act this way or that way. So for some of us, it's not all just enjoy your family. This is time to be thankful. And if we go in with that expectation, then we kind of may end up feeling again like, okay, what's wrong with me? That every holiday is not pleasant, or every holiday isn't what it's supposed to be, according to TV and church or wherever we hear expectations.

One thing I hear you saying is that the leave and cleave process is not very clean. You read it in Scripture and you're like, oh, yeah, that seems pretty simple. And then it plays out very differently for a lot of us, especially around the holidays. But something that came to mind for me was that a lot of the pain that we've experienced and a lot of the patterns, and in this, for some of us, some unhealthy patterns were learned and developed in this family context. And so if we're in recovery and healing and trying to fight against those things, trying to bring healing to that pain we've experienced, entering back into that context is extremely triggering and extremely difficult. It feels like an emotional minefield that you're walking into. And again, this is not everybody's experience. You know, this is not my personal experience. There have been seasons where this was part of my experience. But I really do think that we're walking back into the situation that created some of the really unhealthy patterns that we had or was a part of creating those patterns. And so when we're trying to maintain health, it's like, I'm going back into the war zone. And that's just scary.

Yeah. I think when we're talking about family of origin and holiday gatherings, it brings everything to the Surface the good and the bad. And so we remember all the good memories, the fond affection we have for family, which can almost make the negative things that come to the surface almost harder. Because one truth is that your brain does have a tendency to forget pain, to downplay it, to keep you safe and sane the rest of your year by not thinking of those things. And so something may get really triggered at a family gathering in the midst of really good things. And all of a sudden, it's like that pain is there again. It's just like, oh, why does this always happen? Why does this come up? And we remember all over again, like, how frustrating this is. And we sometimes can feel hijacked or caught off guard by that. The other thing that I've experienced a lot and heard from others, that when you're with family, especially as you're walking through recovery or you and your spouse is, your family is typically not as aware of what's happening in your life as you are, for sure. Or even within a family, there's various levels of awareness of maybe some of the specifics of your story. Or if you're in your first year of counseling, you may have family members that have no idea you're walking through a pretty intense journey and what that looks like. And just knowing there's this huge part of my life that I don't really know if I should share here, if I'm comfortable sharing, when should I bring it up? And so you can feel a little bit like you're artificial because there's this very real, deep process happening. But if you're not around your family a lot and you've traveled to see them or just gathering for these special things, you kind of feel that disconnect of who I am and what's going on isn't known by everybody. And that's just hard to navigate.

Yeah, for sure. Almost like a imposter syndrome. A little bit like you're running into that. Let's get into what some specific ways this might play out. So, like, what are some specific ways that family makes our recovery or healing so tough or difficult during the holidays?

Well, I think, you know, for. For me, it's like you want to honor your parents and honor the things that they raised you to enjoy and do as part of your holiday traditions. And then when you either get to this point in your recovery or healing where you realize you need to make some adjustments or you have your own growing family or your own spouse that you need to change some things, it can be really hard because we don't want to hurt our family. For the most part, we don't want to hurt them, but we also want to, you know, in John's case, put his wife first over his mother, which is really hard. Like you said, that leave and cleave process is not easy. So, you know, I, I recall one season where we were just so busy and we feel like we had hosted so many family things because I was for many years the person that hosted and did all the Thanksgiving cookie cooking, all the Christmas cooking, and people would just kind of show up, eat and leave with, you know, leave me with the mess. And so I had to start verbalizing. I don't want to buy all the food, I don't want to cook all the food, I don't want to clean all the food. I don't want to be the person that does all this. And that was really hard for my family. And then one, you know, Father's Day, we said, we're just, John wants to go fishing, so we're going to take the kids, we're going to go in the woods, we're going to go fishing. And some of the comments were, oh, the Jamesons don't want to spend Father's Day with us. And it's like, it's just these expectations. So that lack of understanding for from your family can be really hard. And then there's some things where if I'm going to Thanksgiving and Christmas this year and maybe I'm not drinking, or maybe I don't want to go to the movies and watch that rated R movie where we would have gone before on Christmas Day and watched that, or family jokes that either hurt or are objectifying or you know, that you may have to speak up against those. So all of a sudden it's like, whoa, we don't like this healthy version of John and Ashley, you know, so just go back to unhealthy. Yeah, but setting boundaries can be very uncomfortable for other people. And not only in family situations, but we do a lot with our friends. And so we sometimes have to have our own boundaries with our friend group because we have different paths we're on, you know, so doing that in a way that doesn't make others feel condemned, but still holds you to your convictions of what you're trying to do for yourself and your family, it can be hard.

That's exactly what I was thinking about is how family may not know or respect the needs that we have, the boundaries that we're putting in place. And with what I was saying earlier, where not everyone in our family knows our whole story. They may not know why we're doing that, and it may not even be appropriate to share to that level. You don't need to share your healing journey with every person everywhere. And especially if you feel like someone's not safe or they're a gossip or they tend to twist stories around. Like, I'm not going to explain to you why I've created some boundaries here or taken these steps. And that's the second thing I think specifically that can happen. And you were mentioning it, Ashley, that when people take it personally that you have maybe a boundary or something you choose not to do, and they're like, well, don't you like us? Or, you know, what did I do wrong? It's like trying to convince someone that it's not about them can be really, really challenging. Another thing that comes to mind specifically is just families can over schedule and expect us to do too much. And there's probably a part of us that wants to be at everything. We want to be there, we want to participate, but we just can inadvertently give away the margin we have in our lives. And I think for me, as I look back at my story, a lack of margin was often what led to seasons of struggle, of relapse. Not necessarily in the midst of it, but in the aftermath, where I would feel overtired, overstressed, needing a break, wanting to disengage. So rather than having a healthy pattern, it would just be go, go, go, go, until my body kind of fatigue. And then look at the faster scale. That E of exhaustion is just doing too much to being too busy, and that makes relapse more possible. So I think family might be a part of driving you down the faster scale, Even completely unintentionally, because you're trying to maximize your time with them. You're trying to maximize, hey, we've got these two days. Let's do it. All right. But if you come out of it in a really unhealthy place, that may not be good for you or your family.

Yeah, Nick, with you saying that, we went through two holiday seasons back to back where John ran away. John ran away from me on, like, Christmas or on New Year's. And looking back, it was just like this compilation of so many events. Like, you have kids, schedules, Christmas things at church, family events, maybe work things. So many things. And then come Christmas Day, he was so burnt out, he just, like, disappeared. I'm like, okay, cool. Not completely alone on Christmas. But it was because he hit this wall. And once we Started putting in good boundaries. He's, he enjoys the holidays now and he doesn't get burnt out because we realized it was that lack of margin that would just make him be like all or nothing. Like I can't handle this, it's too much and disappear.

Something to think, to be aware of. And I've learned this in a couple different situations. One specifically when we started sab, there was a lot of pushback that we got from family and friends. And I realized kind of through that and as I've even heard other people speak on it and I think it's similar to the holidays that when you're being healthy or doing things, sometimes when someone sees that and they feel like, oh, okay, let me try to say this. When we start being healthy, some other people feel like we're pressuring them to be healthy or they're like, that's a really good idea. We don't do that. And I feel bad. So now what I'm going to do is I'm just going to judge or project on that person. And I think that we have a lot of those encounters during the holidays. I'm thinking about, you know, maybe we do hang out with family and we do have our own celebration, but we don't go to the Christmas Eve service. Like, oh my gosh, heaven forbid we don't go to the Christmas Eve service. Like there are some friends I have in mind who the next Sunday we'd see them and they'd be like, where were you on Christmas Eve? Why weren't you here? And if I was to express, well, we had too much, we're trying to maintain margin and trying to be healthy. I've had encounters where someone, it almost like they lash out or they judge, they're very critical. I believe there's a lot more going on under the surface there. But those experiences that we have, sometimes it's just like, all right, fine, I'll over commit this year. I'll just do it so I don't have to go through those weird conversations. And again, that's not just family, that could be extended to even our church family.

Yeah, Trevor, with the Christmas Eve thing that you just said, there was one, I think it was around Thanksgiving or Christmas. It wasn't actually Thanksgiving. Christmas was an event around it. And I had said, oh, I'm not going to do that this year because we're just so busy with our work and kids. And twice I got the response, well, maybe you need to do something for self care. And it's like this is What I'm doing for self care. I'm sorry, but you did not make the list in the most loving way. Seriously, I want to be present with my kids, so cutting these things out is helping me, you know. But it's like this shaming response because you're not going to do something. And I don't think it always comes out of a bad place. I know, like with my family, it's because they want to be with us. So it's more out of a sadness for them that they're not getting to spend time with us. Even like with Sabbath or, you know, holidays, it's, it's not out of a judgmental place. It's like, oh, well, we want to be with you on Christmas.

That's good. So in light of that, Ashley, the word boundaries can almost be like a swear word in the holidays. Because we think of the holidays as a time to let go, let loose, eat all the food, go to all the parties, do all this stuff, just worry about all that later. And like you said, sometimes we hit New Year's Eve going, well, that wasn't great. Now it's time to kind of start over. So why are boundaries so important in this season? And how can we implement them in an effect effective way?

Yeah, boundaries are a swear word. I remember three Thanksgivings ago, one of my family members, I'm not naming names for the most part, was like, you.

Know who you are.

Julie Ashley and her boundaries. Warm house. But she has all these boundaries. And I'm like, why are you saying boundaries like it's such a bad thing? But I was mistaken. As you know, Trevor will understand this as a two for many years because I was so passive and like, just let everybody, like, do whatever and I would bend over backwards for everybody. And then I started to get like crazy in a mental breakdown and realized I couldn't do that. And so some of the boundaries I started putting in place were hard because as I even discussed it with some of my Christian friends, like giving the specific scenarios, it'd be like, well, wouldn't Jesus allow that kind of hospitality? Or wouldn't Jesus want you to do this? And so it was these like, spiritual things. I was told that my boundaries were bad, but really what I wanted to do was honor my mom and dad, but also have boundaries. And, and, and what I ended up doing was just cutting them off completely, like, okay, I can't handle any of this. I'm not gonna let you over. I'm not gonna let you stay at my house. I'm not gonna answer the phone when you call because I know you're going to ask me for something. And I would just. It created. It created a scenario where I wasn't able to love them at all. I just wouldn't answer the phone. I would never answer the phone. I would never let them over. And so once I started getting bold and saying, you can come over, but I really need you to help bring something. So here's three items on the menu that I need you to bring. Or you can come to town and stay at my house. But I really need it to be for only three days because I have kids and a routine and work schedule. And that was hard. And for first, like, year, it was like, well, then I don't even know if I want to come. And I had to be okay with that. And then everybody kind of came around and could respect that. And it's more enjoyable for everybody, I think, at least for me. And I would hope I'd respect their boundaries, too.

Right. And I think it's important to just identify that boundaries are stuff that we set up for ourselves to create emotional safety, physical safety. But it actually allows us to be healthy in the context that we live in as a parent, as a spouse, as a friend, as a group leader, whatever it may be. And so understanding that if I drop those boundaries, that's actually gonna end up hurting everybody even more in all of these contexts, that if I don't have these boundaries or these almost like, relational guardrails in place, then I can't actually be the best spouse or the best mom or dad or the best friend or the best host. And so it's almost like I'm trying to look at what I have in the reserve, like what I have in my tank, and then trying to divvy that up in the wisest way. Where am I gonna spend my emotional time, my physical energy? Here, Here, Here. Okay, not gonna be here or here, because if I do that, that's four days in a row. And by day five, my wife's gonna hate me because I'm a terror, you know? And I'm gonna yell at my kids day six. And so what you're doing by setting boundaries is creating that safety, but you're also planning to be more present, more available, and in a much better headspace with the people that you will be with.

Yeah. And I think it gives you margin when you don't exhaust yourself. It does give you margin to have those opportunities where you can go out of your way to bless somebody or do something Unexpected. You know, I think if you don't have boundaries, then you end up being passive aggressive and saying sarcastic remarks, slamming cabinet doors. You know, those are the things that I struggled with. And then when I started saying, hey, John, could you help me with this meal item before we go to your parents house? Or can you do this to get the kids ready while I do this so we can get out of here on time instead of me being like, everybody has to be happy and have this perfect holiday. And it all falls on me to make sure everybody's happy. We started enjoying the holidays more because I was trying to do too much. And then I would be bitter and he'd say, what's wrong? I'd like nothing, you know, but clearly there was something wrong.

Yeah. When I think of implementing effective boundaries, I think we need to start with what we already know. And for a lot of us, that's using our Three Circles tool. Especially if you're in recovery, those red, yellow, green areas are there for a reason. Understanding what's your relapse, knowing what your healthy guardrails are and having those places that you can go to instead that bring life and health and peace and to just remind us that those don't go out the window just because it's Christmas. And I've heard that in group. I've seen it in my own life where it's like, oh, I know this is one of my guardrails, but oh, it's Christmas. So it doesn't matter if I'm on my device too much or drinking more than I should or not exercising, not doing those things during the green circle. And if you find yourself doing that, you need to have little warning lights that are going off in your thinking and that you're sharing with members in your group because they've been put in place for exactly a season like this. There are, there are probably weeks when you're doing your thing and you're in your rhythms and you don't think much about your three circles because honestly, you may not need them. But it's in a season like this where things are different, things are out of the ordinary, and there's a lot of new triggers or dangers that can be lurking that you've got to rely on those. And I would encourage everyone to pull out your three circles and read through it and ask which of these will be the most challenged during the holiday season? What green areas that I usually do for health will I be tempted to just ignore? And what plan could I make to continue to follow those things? What guardrails will I be most likely to forget or to crash through? And what could I put in place to strengthen that? And I think if you start there, and you may even look at your Christmas holiday plans and choose to add a few things about. Boy, this has been a danger zone for me in the past. This has been part of my pattern. I need to add a few guardrails. And if you use that tool the rest of the year, just don't crumple it up and throw it out the window now. Because it's a different time. It's like, no, this is why. This is one of those seasons you've created that tool for. So let it work for you.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so this is kind of a question where there's a tension. Because it's funny, we just had. This morning, we had staff prayer. And as we were praying, one of the things that came to mind for me was in this navigating. And just so everyone's clear, like, when Pure Desire staff was together this morning and we were praying together, navigating family was one of the prayer requests. You know what I mean? Like, we're not experts in this. We all need prayer and God's help for sure. But this idea of finding the balance between how to actually pour into our family and be loving to them and not use maybe boundaries or our recovery as, like, a way to escape or not enter in, but then also finding that balance of not dropping my boundaries and doing things that are going to make me unhealthy. So what does that look like? Like, is it actually possible to do that, to pour into your family, love, be present with them, and maintain your boundaries? And if so, what exactly does that look like, at least in our experiences?

Yeah, well, Nick stole my answer. I think he was looking at my notes. I had said to get your three circles out and look at it. And so when I'm navigating, like, if people heard me seven years ago, when I first started for Pure Desire, I had a lot of tension with my mom. That's not a secret. We had so much stress, same with my father. And now it's different. And we have just navigated those seasons. But one thing I think of all the time, because one of my core wounds lies, is that I'm being used, overused, and taken advantage of. Because. Because I grew up taking care of myself and because of my personality, I would a lot of times take care of my friends and others as well and be like, that's not right. And. And so now, as an Adult. I want mutual relationships. And so if, if I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, it's a huge trigger. And often I'll just be like, I'm not doing any of that and I'll cut it all off. And so I have to look at my three circles and say, even in the relationship context with our family, my mom and John's family, what things bring us closer together that I'm okay with. It's good for me and it's good for them. And then what, what situations have we been in the past that I absolutely want to avoid and what things bring us there? So like for us, sometimes political conversations at Thanksgiving and Christmas are not things that bring us together. And so if, if people start getting into a deep political rival, I will just walk away. I'm not going to engage in this. It's, I'm not going to let this be part of it. If I find myself feeling a certain way, like maybe I don't know what I'm thinking, but I feel triggered. That's happened a lot. When I've been cooking and cleaning, I will say, what is, what is it that I'm feeling? When have I felt like this before? What is it that I need? Because I don't want to just let this bitterness sit in me. So I need to figure out what it is I need so I can articulate this. My family and, and have a good time with them. And then when it comes to things that our extended family asks, like our parents or siblings, if it's something that would bring them joy and make them feel closer to me in relationship, and it's something I have margin to do and I can do, then I try to do it as an investment in the relationship because I know also there's going to be things that they want me to do that I'm going to say no to. So just making sure that I'm really keeping it balanced, that I'm not just always saying, well, this is good for me. I'm in recovery, I'm in healing, and I need this and, and making sure that it's a two, two way street. I'm pouring into them where I can and where I'm able and willing.

Yeah, the phrase I wrote down is prioritize your priorities. You know, think about who are the people I do want to pour into because they're, I think people would say, man, I want to make sure it's a good experience for my children. I want to maybe connect with. You've got a sibling or parents and sometimes there's multitudes of gatherings that you realize, I'm only going there really to see that one person or family. And maybe that gathering is not the right place for you. You could make an arrangement to see them at a different time or go out together and. And really finding ways that you can within your plan, see and invest in the people you most want to. Because I think in that pressure to maybe be all things to all people, we do walk away from some of these time frames and say, man, I really never even hung out with my own spouse or with my brother that I rarely see. And so just really thinking through who are the people I want to go deep with and making sure you preserve your time and energy for those opportunities.

Yeah. So Rodney and Traci Wright, who are on staff with us, mentor Amy and I, and when we've met before and we've had challenges with family, one of the things that they've said is to try to find small wins. So in this context, like, if you know you're going to go to. You're going to see your brother, who don't get to see all that often at a family gathering, just like, make a plan beforehand. I'm gonna sit down with my brother for five to 10 minutes, and I'm just gonna encourage him. I'm gonna ask him how his life is doing, tell him and be honest that I miss him. I wish we saw each other more and just have a meaningful interaction. And if we plan, like, you know, again, I've said this on the podcast before. Michael Hyatt says this, that what gets scheduled gets done. So if you put a plan in place before you walk into, you know, these situations, that's always gonna help you and benefit you. But finding those small wins and looking for those good interactions, because we all kind of know that, like, well, we're gonna get there and then grandpa's gonna have too much to drink, and then he's gonna say some political comment, and then we're gonna get into this conversation. Like, we all know the things that tend to happen that are negative. But if we go in planning to try to find ways to make little wins happen, I think that that puts us in a good mindset. We're being intentional with some forethought into it, and I think that could go a long way.

Yeah. So let's be a little more specific and personal here. I'd like to hear us chat a little bit about what are some of the ways that you are planning to navigate family during the holidays? What's on your radar, Ashley and Trevor.

Well, I recognize this year that my home stress score is like higher than it was. Higher than it was when we had disclosure with John or discovery. So it's like higher than it was when I got divorced. It's so crazy because we've had three deaths in the family, including my brother, grandma, grandpa. I've changed roles at work. We graduated our twin boys, we sold a house, we moved, we're building a house. And now we're dealing with some mental health issues in our family. And so it's just like maybe you.

Should try starting a business. I think that's about the only thing we've got left on the list.

There you go.

It's just so. Well, and we went on vacation, we took the boys to Hawaii. So it's like so much has happened this year and multiple times that I like it is so you guys know I practically had a nervous breakdown this summer. But so one of the things that the home stress test taught me when I first did it and I'm sad because I was at like 500 and then the next year I got down to 3 and then the next year I got down to 2 and the next year I got down to 1 and so I was like in the healthy range of normal stress. And then all of a sudden like I'm beyond. So I have like one of the things that taught me though, being an objective thinker, logical thinker is that I can go through and highlight the things that I have control over and I can do my best for this next season, this next 12 month span to try to reduce those stressors as much as I can. One of the things on there is holidays. I can't control the fact that my brother passed away. I can't control the fact that my twins graduated. I mean I did help them graduate.

Yeah, some control.

I could have a little control there, some threats. But some of the things I can control are like birthdays, vacations, holidays. We're not planning any vacations in the next year. Birthdays will be simple, still meaningful, but simple. And we need to do the same thing with holidays. So we're planning to communicate that with both of our sides of our family that this is such a crazy time. We should be moving into our new house within the next month which will fall right between the holidays. That gifts everybody's getting the same exact simple little gift. We may or may not come to both holidays. We probably won't. It will depend where we're living. But we're playing that by ear. We're not making any big plans, we're not making any commitments to host. If we're in between houses or in the middle of a move, we might just do something special and unique because we're moving this year for our family. So we just need to communicate that well and also reassure our family that it's not about them, that this is about us, that we've had a big year. And one way we can kind of just simplify is making the holiday season not stressful and easy. So that's what we're planning on doing.

What I love about what you just said, Ashley, is that you're thinking about where you're at, you're having that self awareness. And I would encourage everyone listening that that's really healthy to just say where are we at this year? Because your reality this year doesn't have to mean that's your plan every year. But if you're in the midd, like if year one of recovery, you may be echoing a lot of what Ashley said. It's an intense, stressful year. And for this year you may just be saying no more and be okay with that because that's where you're at this year. And so I think, yeah, just that healthy self awareness is really awesome.

Well, and that's exactly where Amy and I are at at the time that you guys will be listening to this. Amy, just a couple weeks before had a major surgery, a life changing, life altering surgery and a recovery is going to be about four to six weeks. So basically mid November till the end of the year, we're saying no to stuff. And there is a part of me that is just like, it's a really good excuse to say no and draw really hard boundaries and pull away. But at the same time we've already been having these conversations beforehand. We're gonna say no to a lot of things this year. And the people who are close to us know that they know what to expect. And so it's not gonna be this like, wait, what? You're not coming? It's like, no, my wife's still in bed and can't get up. No, of course we're not coming. So yeah, I think that that for us has been helpful to have those conversations beforehand. But for us that's really what managing or navigating our family. It's just knowing that it's okay to say no and that no is a complete sentence. I've heard that before.

It's a good one for us. At the time of this recording, we're still making a lot of decisions about what we'll do and where we'll go. And we're a little undecided for some various reasons. But I think what I'm keeping in mind is that whatever decisions we make, someone will be unhappy either within my immediate family because I've got with four kids, they're divided like couple absolutely want to go on this trip and a couple others, like, I don't really care and I'd rather not. So if we choose to go, I'll be divided in my own family and then the same with our extended family. These choices we make impact people. And as a kind of a people pleaser in my history, that can be really hard and make me want to just get selfish and be like, well, fine, I can't make everyone happy, so I'm just going to do what I want. Like, I'm just going to watch football. I'm just going to kind of numb out and go for a run, you know, forget all of you. So rather than looking at the opportunities, I start to really withdraw inward. And I think that's something I'm just trying to stay aware of is, yeah, we're going to make the decisions in the end that are right for our family and for those that are unhappy to have a healthy separation of like, hey, I'm sorry this wasn't your ideal or what you wanted, but how can we make the most of what we have? How can we do something together? How can we make this moment fun and just look at that from an other centered perspective versus just, well, you know, people are upset, so I'll just go do my own thing. So, yeah, that's, I think the strategy we're taking and really to ask that question, like, what do we want out of this holiday? And if you answer that question, say, what we want out of this holiday is just to be around people and bless others and do all this stuff, like, awesome, do it. But if you're in a place as a family saying, what we want out of this holiday is rest and peace and some quiet, like, there may be a lot more no's. So it's just asking like what is best and good and healthy for us? What's honoring God for where we're at in our story right now and then being willing to move into that. And I think we're asking some of those questions as a family right now. Absolutely. Well, I think this has been really beneficial. I hope for all the listeners it's got your mind thinking about how to have health for the holiday. What a gift that is to you and to others. And so what final tips or advice can we give men and women to help us create health for the holidays? As we navigate family issues?

A couple practical things would be to assess where you're at, look at your year, talk with your spouse, find out what the priorities are, and then if you're going to engage in situations that might be triggering for us. We found it healthy when we started re engaging to have a plan before and a plan after and kind of like an escape plan if things got too tense. So a respectful one. But instead of just not knowing why we ended up in relapse and hurt after every holiday season, to understand that we may need to do some heavier lifting with our recovery work beforehand. More phone calls, avoid isolation, you know, and then you go to the event and then the same thing afterward. We're not gonna be like, okay, that was stressful. Now I just want to shut my door and be alone for a few days. Like, that wasn't good for us. So assess where you're at and make a plan. And then also just let go of your expectations and put the relationship over rituals. And those expectations that, you know, whether it's a relationship with you and God or yourself and having healthier version of yourself or with your, your, your immediate family or your extended family, that just being in relationship in a healthy way is going to create new memories and traditions out of that, you know, instead of trying to put our rituals on somebody else.

Yeah, I think to kind of piggyback off what Ashley said. It's okay to have a safe word. You know, it's like nutmeg. Okay, we're leaving. Let's go. You know, like, that's totally fine. But I said, I mean, I wrote down the same thing. Just make a plan. I think that we assume the best of ourselves walking into those situations, like, oh, I'll be able to get triggered and be able to handle it emotionally, or I'll know when I need to walk away, or, you know, I'll recognize that look that my spouse gives me, hey, we need to leave. But I think that when we get into those situations, we tend to get flooded pretty quickly and we'll lose sight of some of those things. And so I would just emphasize what Ashley said. Make a plan beforehand. Have a conversation and hear me. Don't just have a conversation with your spouse while you're on the way. Have a conversation maybe a week before or a couple days before. So you're putting a plan and I Know, it sounds kind of weird that you're putting like a strategy together, but like the strategy is just gonna help you be more present and be more available with your team or sorry, with your team, with your family.

I would say the key to that is not only having a plan, but communicating it. Telling a group member, telling your spouse. Because if we just make a plan but don't really tell others, it's really easy to let go of the plan when it doesn't feel convenient. And so, you know, for me one of those issues has been like numbing out on my phone while everyone else is in another room. Cause I just, I get overwhelmed or I feel a little emotionally tired. I just want to disengage and that's not a good situation for me. And so if I just tell myself that that's at least self awareness in the right direction. But if I also tell my spouse like, hey, if you see me doing this, I want you to call me on it. Because I realize sometimes I'll start in that direction and not really realize that's what I've done. Or telling your group, hey, here's my plan of what I'm going to do instead. I'm much more likely to follow through. The thing that came to mind specifically for me is just a mindset that I would encourage people to have. Because when we're with family of origin or when we're doing holiday stuff, it tends to trigger tensions or pain or family of origin stuff. And I think in those moments it can be easy to maybe beat ourselves up or wonder why we're not healthier or how come things aren't better. And we've been in recovery for X number of years. I thought I'd be quote unquote over this. And I think about it like when there's a machine that is excavating a hole or a hillside, it will come across new things the deeper it gets. And the excavator doesn't think, oh my gosh, what's wrong with us that we found this rock inside a hill? It's like, well, that's part of the work of going deeper. You're going to find new things. And I think the same is true in our health and recovery. As you become more self aware, as you become more aware of your wounds and your story, there will be things you notice that you never did before. And rather than seeing those as a issue of what's wrong with them or what's wrong with me, to just look at it with that gratitude of oh wow, I'M seeing something new, and it's a new opportunity for me to learn to grow and to handle a situation that I maybe didn't even see was there. And now I do, and I can take it to God, I can take it to others and say, help me deal with this. Whether it's a wound that you discover, a lie that you've listened to, a dynamic in a relationship, it's there and it's probably been there a long time. And you're going to discover it during this time. And rather than getting down about it, seeing that as the next layer or next level of your healing, I think is really important.

Yeah, that's good. Like looking at holiday seasons as a step forward in our recovery, that we can use this and leverage this for deeper levels of health and setting new trajectory for the coming year and the coming season of recovery. That's really good. Obviously, from this conversation, our hope is that you see that health for the holidays is absolutely possible, specifically when navigating family. And if you're listening to this and you're like, man, my family is great. I don't struggle with any of this. That's totally fine. We are thankful that that's situation.

We got 260 other episodes. Go back. Go listen to those. I'm sure you've got issues somewhere else. Yeah.

And you know, then, like, maybe some of those people don't have kids. Well, when you have kids, things change, you know, like, obviously, wherever you're at in recovery, just knowing that this is something that you may run into. So we hope that today's conversation. Conversation was helpful. And Ashley, always, you have such great thoughts and experiences to share. So thanks for being with us.

Yeah, thank you.