How Spiritual Disciplines Can Porn-Proof Your Life w/ Alan Hlavka

Hello there, good listener. I am your host Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. Whether this is your first day in recovery or your 10,000th day of recovery, we hope that you're able to hear some life-giving conversations that maybe you've never been a part of before. Today is episode 469, and here joining me is my co-host one last time in this series is the man, the myth, the legend, Mr. Jon Begum. Jon, welcome back to the podcast.

It is good to be back, and I really wish I had a song right now, but all of them are really cheesy and I'm like, I don't think I want to do that on the podcast.

Well, this is the end of a series, and so A little look behind the curtain. We actually, as our guest, Orator, has had it, made it happen, we're recording the last episode first. So I'm just gonna preemptively guess that you've probably sung in this podcast series along the way. You just don't know it yet.

I don't know it yet. I don't know yet either.

Here we go.

But I think this has been a great series and the heart of it was to try to come back to looking at how do we build a porn-proof life? Not just how do we recover, how do we, you know, overcome betrayal or break those bonds? And those things are really important. Done tons of podcasts on them. But I think in this series we wanted to look at our world and just say, what would it look like to just live above the need for pornography? And we've, we've addressed some really important topics, but I think perhaps this is the right place to end because it's kind of the cornerstone of really looking at how do our spiritual disciplines, how does our life in Christ inform, uh, the kind of life that doesn't need pornography in it.

Yeah, oh, Nick, you know more than I do. We preach time and time again, this is more than trying harder, this is more than memorizing Scripture, this is more than just reading Scripture. And I just want to give our audience like an overview. We talk a lot about Scripture in this episode, and if I am being really honest, I feel more inspired to read Scripture right now than I have been in probably 5 years.

Well, I think it is because our guest doesn't just know it or quote it, like he lives it. And that is, I think, the theme that listeners you are going to hear today. Is Scripture is vital to our recovery when we are really living it and experiencing it and not just like mentally, you know, checking off a list. "Well, I read this many chapters today." And I could think of no one better than Alan Hlawka, who is pastor at the church that I attended here in Gresham, and I have just always admired his heart for the Lord, his heart for people, and that he sees everything integrated through that lens of Scripture.

Yeah, I would just, for those of you who are listening to this episode, I would pose a question to you as you engage this episode. And the question would be, what passage of Scripture has meant the most to you over the course of your life, or potentially even right now in the midst of crisis or recovery? Because what I loved about this was him saying the passage of Scripture is an invitation to the presence of Christ and actually engaging in something experiential of what is Christ saying of me? What is Christ saying of the world? What does Christ think of me? And honestly, that if I had sang something, —It would have been, you know, the song where it says like sloppy wet kiss or unforeseen kiss, you know, the—

Oh yeah, the controversy on that one. The— And it's just— Oh, now I'm blanking on the name of it, but yeah, I know what you're talking about.

The way he loves us. That's the chorus. Oh, that's right. Oh, the way he loves us. And I'm walking away from this episode going, man, like Jesus loves me. Yeah. And I am so grateful that scripture is so much more than just a book, but it's a love letter. Yeah.

I think You're going to be inspired. This is a little different than a lot of our episodes, but I think appropriately so, to bring us back that the heart of recovery, the heart of a pornproof life is really one that has Jesus at the center. And so a bit more about our guest. Alan Hlávka and his wife Fida have been married for 54 years. He's lived it. You're also going to love his story of pre-Christ, his own addiction and struggle. They have 3 daughters and 16 grandchildren. Alan has been in ministry for more than 43 years, 39 of them on the teaching team at Good Shepherd. Shepherd Community Church in Boring, Oregon. Yes, that's true, it's in Boring. They're a boring church in boring Oregon, including 7 years as their lead pastor. His primary ministry gifts are being with people in their physical and relational distress and communicating God's word with heart and passion. And so here now is part 5 of 5 in our Porn Proof Life series, The Importance of Spiritual Disciplines, with Pastor Alan Halaevka. Well, Alan Hlóvka, welcome. Thank you. First-time guest to the Pure Desire Podcast. You have been in our office before. You're friends of our staff. You're a local guy. You were one of my pastors for a season of my life, and so I'm really excited to have you on to talk about this really important topic in our spiritual life in general, but in recovery, to be a safeguard against pornography use and sexual sin. And so we're looking forward to talking about that. But before we jump in maybe to the episode itself, tell us a little bit about yourself. Who is Alan Halaivka?

Well, I'll tell you what I've been up to the last 45 years or so, but then I want to take a few minutes to talk about my being steeped in sexual immorality before I met the Lord Jesus. Yeah. The last 45 years I've been in ministry at Good Shepherd 40+. We were on the Family Life speaker team for 24 years, which is such a joy.

And so I think that was our original connection, you and me. I was like, wait, you were a Family Life speaker?

Because— yeah, yeah. Oh, because you were with Dennis Rainey, was it?

David Robbins. Oh yeah, right after Dennis Rainey. Yep. Yeah, but I love that. That's so cool.

Yeah, that was probably my favorite thing that I got to do in life. I was most running in my lane. And in ministry, um, my, my lane, my gift set is being with people in relational and physical distress and teaching the Word with passion and heart. That's my lane. There's a lot of other lanes. But if it's okay, what I'd like to do is take a moment. I came to Christ at age 21, senior in college at Lewis Clark College. But where I grew up in my home, as a young, you know, 12 years old, 13 years old, my dad had a full stack of Playboy magazines in the attic, and the attic was easy to get to. Wow. Yeah. Then my parents, their livelihood is they owned a music studio where they'd have people come in for private lessons. There'd be 350 students a week come through. It was a very successful business. And part of their faculty, one of the guys that taught guitar, I was exposed as a young teenager, kind of mentored by some of the darkest, most sexually perverse people you would ever meet. So you're 13, you're starting to look you know, pornography, you're masturbating, and then you have this coaching on how you treat women. And it was sick and it was pathetic, but it was my culture. We all have our culture.

Sometimes it's all you know.

It's all you know. And because it was such a large organization, we were together in small groups and we'd go out and entertain and stuff musically and vocally. And so my crew of young men were the same way. And so we would egg each other on to do increasingly perverse things. It was just horrible. Then in high school, I was in a number of sexual relationships with young girls. College, same thing. When I was a freshman, uh, 3 and a half years before I came to know Jesus, got a girl pregnant. Um, and then, um, in college, you know, I'm doing more stuff. I'm going to strip clubs. Then finally, my senior year, I've got 6 months to go. And, uh, I, I was a music major. I was the lead voice in a lot of musicals all over the city. I sang, I was the lead vocalist with orchestras. So in my discipline, I was at the top of the pile. Wow. But I had 6 months to go, and I thought, you know what, I'm 21 years old, which now it doesn't sound old, but that's a, that's a milestone.

You are 21.

Yeah, yeah, you're 21, you're graduating from college. What's life about? What's this life about? I didn't think Jesus existed. If he did, he's not God. Anyway, I did— with the Bible study helps, I found out, oh, existed, resurrected, literally. Once I studied this through, I went, he's God. And the exact words that came out of my mouth was, I'm toast. Because I'm in big trouble. I have damaged so many people. Wow. But there was one guy on campus named Ron Jensen, and his life was the life you wanted. And I knew if you want answers to God questions, Ron knew them. So I went to Ron for 90 minutes, the poor guy. I poured out every element of the filth in my life.

Oh, confession.

Oh my gosh, just total. And at the end of the 90 minutes, I said, "I just wish I could become a new person." And I thought what he'd say is, "Alan, look how many people you've scarred." "Look how many people you've damaged." And then he shared how to come to Christ. And we literally knelt, March 16th, Tuesday morning, 1971. And I mean, I didn't sort of, "I receive Christ." No. I mean, it was darkness to light. My girlfriend, Theda, who's been my wife now for 54 years, went to her dorm room later that afternoon and She opens the door and she says, "Alan, you just weren't having a good day." She says, "There was an aura, there was a presence so profound I couldn't look at you." Wow. Because the Holy Spirit had made me new that morning. Wow. And then 9 days later, Ron's wife Mary led Theater to Christ. Oh my gosh. And we got married that summer. So that's my backstory.

And just to say, I mean, praise God for Ron. Oh my gosh. This priest to you as a college student on this campus.

Yep, yep. And he went on to become the president of Crusade crew, now called Campus Crusade for Christ Theological Seminary.

Wow! Of course he did.

Well, and I just want to say for our listeners, because I know Allen and I know his heart, that for some listeners that came to Christ and wanted that magic moment of like, "I became a new person and the old was gone and the new had come," and they prayed and begged that prayer, that I know Allen is not saying that he prayed to Jesus and all his stuff went away. No. He has lived the life, but I have also seen you walk with a lot of compassion for people going through that brokenness. I'm sensing now it's that you lived that life and know the pain that's involved and today get to speak to the transformation you've seen Christ bring into many of those situations. But just wanted to encourage listeners that I know Alan's heart is not like, well, just become a new person, it'll go away. Sometimes change happens in a moment and sometimes it takes a process.

Yeah, as John Piper says, "The fierce fight of faith." Oh my gosh, the mental battles I have, but I have the right ammunition.

And Allen, I will say, though, I love just like if there was a blueprint to take from the story you just shared, your conversion started with a deep radical sense of confession that says, "I'm unburdening myself of all of these secrets and all of the lies and all of the pain to me and that I've caused." And I just want to say, Allen, to you, You were 21. Yeah. And I want you to hear me say, I have compassion for your younger self who didn't know Jesus, who was raised in a culture, to your own words, of filth and just perversion. Yeah. And I just want you to hear me say, I have such compassion for your younger self. You didn't know what you were doing. Yeah. And you were led in a way that was not helpful, and in fact, really harmful to you and to others. Yeah. And I praise God— Wow. —for that moment at Lewis Clark College when your life began to 180. And to Nick's point, right, it doesn't change— all change overnight, but just the Holy Spirit, yeah, came upon you, infused you, and life began to look different. You began to walk with Jesus. Good word. And just to say, like, you know, to continue the conversation, I'm assuming at some point you began grabbing some spiritual disciplines, whether that was scripture or attending church. What were some of those that were really helpful for you to walk away from some of your past sexual behaviors?

Yeah, and with Theda, and by the way, even before I came to Christ, I came to Christ, like I said, in March, we were thinking we might get married. And back then, even before I knew the Lord, I said, "I need to tell you my whole story because if we do get married, I don't want you to have to read the fine print after we said 'I do.'" Wow. It's not fair. And I said, "I'll understand if you say I forgive you, but I prefer not to spend my future with you." Yeah. And I told it all. And she says, "I forgive you and I want to spend my life with you." And I was like, "Wow." You're like, "I'm in." Yeah. And so for Theda, you know, and I'll answer your question. I'm going to throw this in here a little bit fast forward. Like I said, we've been married 54 years. 25 years ago, Theda got a life-threatening disease. And we weren't sure she was gonna make it. We had a 3-year battle. She was in so much pain she couldn't even whisper what she needed me to attend to, just hideous pain. And so one time when we were doing a Family Life Conference, we're getting in the elevator after a session, she says, "Alan, I just want you to know, if you were ever unfaithful to me, you'd break my heart." Okay, that would be true for any marriage, but the specialist, when he diagnosed what she was battling, said, "Sadness is what brought this on." Wow. "Laughter will fix it." So if I were to succumb and not use the tools that the Holy Spirit's given me, it wouldn't hurt Dita, it would kill her. And that's not an exaggeration. That, you know, it's just our story. This isn't everyone, right? Right. So, um, you know what, I was visiting with Nick prior to our getting together today, and I— probably the vocabulary I used, spiritual disciplines, makes sense. I kind of rephrase it for my own journey, and I'm going to read the words I wrote down here. I'd probably use a different vocabulary to just describe those soul-filling heart-refreshing, life-protecting pattern that is my day-to-day way of being. I just, you know, Camp Crusade for Christ spiritual breathing, you know, where you confess and then you receive the forgiveness. For me, this is a daily experience of steeping myself in God's Word, not because it's a book. As one of my most wonderful mentors, Dr. Ron Frost, puts it, he says, "These are not opaque pages we look at. These are the lenses through which we see him." Ron, he's a brilliant man, two bachelor's, two master's, a PhD from King's College London, Nobody's read the Bible more than this guy. He reads it 3 to 4, sometimes 5 to 6 times a year for the last 60 years. And he's like a 5-year-old kid that just came to Christ. He goes, "Man, Allen, have you met him? Have you met him?" And so I have people like that in my life who have shown me to pore over, and here's, I brought one of my Bibles here, 'cause I mean, Lord, you gotta talk to me. I need you. I've gotta meet you. I don't need to study a manual, I need to meet the person. So, that's the only way I make it. You know, there's other heroes that have helped me. There's this lady that walked into our church, her name is Lydia Luthi, Swiss woman in her 80s. The service is about to begin and she comes, she goes, "Alan," she says, "the love of God is enough to fill a life. It is enough." You know, as it says in Psalm 63, "Because your love is better than life, my lips will praise you." Now we all have also kind of our personal backgrounds, our makeup, so not everybody has to do what I do. Yeah. But this is what I do, is I get in the book and I said, "I got to hear you, I've got to meet you." And there's all kinds of other things I use That is, to use the word spiritual discipline, it's just how I navigate every day.

Alan, I have a good friend who says something like, when people spend a lifetime with Jesus, they either become eternal masterpieces or they spend a lifetime without him and they become eternal horrors. And whether it's you or your mentors or this Swiss woman in your church, it seems like you've been surrounded by eternal masterpieces. I really have. And you're becoming one, Alan. Well, thanks.

That's where, as we make our way through this visit today, the Lord has placed people in my life just saying, "Oh, you think he's that good?

Take a look at this." He's better. Oh!

And you know, Ron Jensen was the beginning. There's another guy named Walt Townsend. I met with Walt. He's now battling Alzheimer's and lives in Arizona now. We met once, usually 2 or 3 times a week for 25 years. And every time you get with Walt, you're thinking, "Wow, I want to know him like you know him." Just whets your appetite.

Yeah, I love what you're saying about spiritual disciplines. You know, you said that the purpose of them is to encounter, to meet a person, to know Christ. Yes. And I think we can relate to that in our relationships and marriages. If I'm only taking my wife on dates or bringing her flowers or writing a note or sending a thoughtful text, if I'm only doing that for the purpose of doing it, Hey, this week I sent 6 texts and brought flowers once. And like, the point is not the things, right? The point is to grow closer with my wife. It's about her. And if it's not about her, then why am I doing them? And I think that's what I hear you saying about our— whether it's prayer or Bible reading or fasting, meditating, journaling, like whatever we enter into, to remember the heart of it is it's to connect with the person of Jesus. Absolutely. Not the thing itself, because if it's just about the book, like how many chapters did I read? Well, pick any book, you know. I know. But if it's to get to Jesus, that's the heart of it, and that's what we want to keep in front of us. Thank you.

That's well said. Two quotes just from a week ago. There's a woman in Good Shepherd named Shelley Gilmore, and she's just one of those people when you meet with her, like, whoa, okay, you know things about him and you know him. I want to know. Here's what she wrote. She says, imagine that a passage of Scripture— think of it as a passageway into the presence of Jesus, where we sit and have deep conversation with him, speaking, listening, treasuring. And I passed that on to Ron Frost. Here's his response. He says, it's important to come to the Bible for the who it offers more than the what it gives us. So that's where the lens through which we see and meet him, and I find this— we'll probably visit this a little bit later— is that being in community, you know, like when we did the Conquer series at Good Shepherd, we had guys around the table week after week after week, and then they went into Seven Pillars. You know, people go to Celebrate Recovery, they're in a growth group, They're in a men's group. Man, almost everything I've learned, I learned when I was in community. And the guys didn't even know. I just got rebuked. You know, I'd be in a growth group with couples and this guy says, "Well, here's what I do for my wife." I go, "Oops, never thought of that." Yeah, we're learning, we're growing.

Yeah, you know, for some of our audience, Alan, this topic is maybe a little— they're leery of it because they've they've almost had spiritual disciplines preached at them as like earning or legalism. And we've all heard the phrase like, we're not just going to pray it away magically. It's not by trying harder. And so in some ways it might make us almost feel like, well, is this that helpful or important? So do you have any examples that come to mind of someone's story where you've seen that their integration of spiritual disciplines, that the growth in Christ was a significant part of how they were being transformed? How have you seen that happen practically in someone's life?

Well, I'm going to share one specific one. There was this gentleman, I think he's probably early 40s. I can't recall why he was in prison, but he'd just gotten out. And one of our elders, a guy named Mel Erickson, the guy said, "Mel, would you help me meet him? Can you help make some new insides in here?" And what Mel literally did is he picked some verses, you know, some passages that would really speak to this man, and he said— I'll just say his name is Bob— "Bob, here's what I want you to do. See these 4 verses? Today what I want you to do is I want you to literally, to physically handwrite those verses because as the Word of God, because it's living, active, breathe, God's breath, as God's breath gets inside of you, Things are going to start to change because you are hearing from, meeting with, and walking with. So there was one specific that was just dramatic. It was unbelievable. And, you know, I've been in numbers of situations because I'm generally with couples who are in distress, right? You know, whoa. Oh, I just saw this couple the other day. I visited with them years ago. So we met with him and, you know, it was not untypical in terms of how we bumped and bruised each other. And I says, and then you and I met, buddy, and here's what you said to me. You said, people don't change. He says, but God changes people. And I went, whoa, well said. So we become like who we hang with, right? Yeah, we just do. So as— was it Houston who wrote Transforming Friendship? So, I get with the Lord Jesus and then I work with young men, middle-aged men, and old coots like me to say, "You can meet him. This is where you hear his voice. And he, if you're steeped in his presence—" And like you said, worship, community, conversation, keeping company with God, one man's definition of prayer. So I have walked with souls all the way from the moment of confession that I've been unfaithful to my wife. Will you go with me when I tell her the truth? Challenging moments. Yeah. I remember one of our staff members, he says, Alan, can you come meet with my wife and myself? And inside I'm going, oh God, please. Not immorality, not immorality, immorality. And then he confessed and it was. So we go from the absolute tragedy to restoration. And today, you'd be very proud of that man. Very proud of that man. He— it's restored because Jesus walked in and he makes dead things come alive. Look at us. Come on.

Well, Alan, that's what I love what you're talking about, right? Bad company can corrupt good character and the righteousness of Christ when infused into us can rewrite our bad character. Isn't that interesting? The inverse is true.

Yeah. I have lived on both sides. I've been pure darkness and for now, for 54 years, actually March 16th this year, I'll contact Ron again. It'll be 55 years since that morning. So beautiful.

Well, and Alan, just this whole idea of like the work of the Holy Spirit is one for cleansing, and then I think also for empowerment to do the work, right, of Christ, to be his hands and feet in the world. But first and foremost, so he cleanses us and then he empowers us to go do and be the hands and feet. And I just, I love these stories that you're sharing, that there are moments of confession as an act of cleansing and getting rid of and unburdening, but then there's also commitment and time and relationship on relationship and story after story of meeting with and being with— Persistence. Yeah, one another. And I just love that element of community that you are so clearly highlighting of it is— like, I love your story. The guy wasn't—

he didn't say, "How should I tell my wife about my immorality?" He said, "Will you come with me?" "Will you go with me?" Because I've been in a lot of those meetings. And I want to throw in another thing. There's 2 or 3 things that in terms of how the Word through brothers and sisters, but primarily brothers, have shown me how to not be the man in Proverbs 4 through 7. Don't go near the door of her house. Don't walk along. The way I put it is, listen, you want to be so far from the cliff that when the gust of temptation comes, not if, when it comes, you're so far it can't blow you over. This is going to sound a little crazy and maybe you'll edit this part out, who knows. I rarely or never hug another woman. I just don't. I shake hands. And it was so cute. A couple times they sneak up on me and hug me, but I just want to treat every woman with the dignity and the respect and the decorum they deserve. We live in such a culture where we degrade one another, and it's just delightful to treat people the way they're made in the image of God. You know, it says in one translation, treating younger women as sisters with absolute purity. And there's joy. If I may, I'd like to throw this in here. Please. There was a guy named Dr. David Ekman who's had a profound impact on many lives and on mine. He said this, and I first met him at Western Seminary, and then we brought him to Good Shepherd and things. He says, "It's difficult to tempt a happy heart." You know, I use the illustration of you go to Thanksgiving this year, you're going to be more moderate. Doesn't work out that way. You know, the apple pie, whatever kind of pie and the stuffing. But let's just say, well, phew, that was great. And you're like, oh boy, oh boy. And somebody comes in with a fresh pizza and it's hot. Would you like a piece? Not now. Because I'm so full. You're so full. And so the thing of being steeped in— and for me, the way I begin each day in being steeped in God's Word, I love the NIV UK, which is on YouVersion. A guy named David Suchet reads it. You know, a lot of translations—

Does he have an accent, Alan? Does he have an accent? He's British. Okay, good.

Well, and he came to Christ actually like 40 years ago. He was an actor coming over in New York, and there was a Gideon's Bible, and this man passionately loves Christ. But when he reads, he doesn't read words. You feel like he's almost like a commentary. So the morning begins for me when I'm starting my day, making the bed, doing that kind of stuff. I'm listening to the audio version, and I have a Bible read-through program called Life Journal. Reading plan that takes you through the Old Testament twice, the New Testament once each year. And so you're in the Old Testament and the New Testament every day. And then I'm listening to books by Dane Ortland, Gentle and Lowly. More recently, Francis Chan's Beloved. I don't read books, I crawl through them. I took over 3 years to read the hard copy of Gentle and Lowly, but I've probably listened through it, and I was listening to it this morning 5, 6 times because I want to know him like you know him. And you're opening up God's word, and you know, when Philip was running alongside the Ethiopian eunuch in the chariot, he says, "Do you understand what you're reading?" He goes, "How would I know unless somebody explains it to me?" So some of these brothers can just open things up. So I'm listening to the scriptures, through today's reading, then I'm listening as I'm making breakfast, I'm listening to Dane Ortlund this morning or Francis Chan, and then I have some set-aside time where I'm just going, "Okay, Lord, I need more than information. I need you to reach inside this soul and make it come alive." So when Eckman says, It's difficult to tempt a happy heart, but when we have our respective addictive temptations, and when we make a bad decision and we feel guilt, worthlessness, and shame, which he teaches from Romans 3, then we need a painkiller and a pleasure giver. And so then we maybe look at pornography or we go to a strip club or we do something. And now I really feel bad, so I need a painkiller and a pleasure giver. And then we know from Psalm 16, you know, you show me the path of life, at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. So, you know, as C.S. Lewis said, our desires aren't too weak— excuse me, too strong. They're not too strong, they're too weak. We're settling for things that hurt us instead of things that give life and spread life.

Yeah, what's that quote, Nick? Can you give us the full quote? Because it's worth it.

Yeah, it's the— we're like a child playing, making mud pies in the slums because we can't imagine a day at the sea. And my favorite part, the very end, he says, we are far too easily pleased.

Yep, I've got it in here too. Good. Yeah, good stuff. So it's not a matter of stop stop seeking pleasure. No, seek it. Just go where it is.

What I love, Psalm 16 talks about, and the boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. And I think sometimes that can be the temptation, right? The, the belief is that God's not good and his ways aren't good, and so I will go outside of his ways, outside of his intent for my life to find what is good. And he's saying, no, no, no, no, they've fallen in good places. Like, these are my paths of righteousness for you to walk. These aren't paths to, you know, the cosmic idea that he's a cosmic joy killer. No, no, I'm not trying to kill your joy. I'm trying to unleash your pleasure. To your point, Nick, in the C.S. Lewis quote, not to the mud that you think is pleasing, but to the vacation at sea.

Yeah, there's so much more. And Blaise Pascal, you know, lived in the 1600s. He says every decision every human being makes is because they believe it will make them happy. Yeah, those who go to war and those who don't, even those who take their lives. Wow. So we cannot not be pleasure seekers. We can just get the pleasure that satisfies, and then it has our soul happy enough that when the temptation comes, we're going, nah, thanks. But when we're empty, we're so susceptible.

Even a dollar Totino's pizza smells good. We'll eat anything.

Oh, isn't that the truth? Yeah.

As Alan was saying, I'm just like, I love Alan that you're bringing in this concept of food and the idea of being full versus not full, because we know that sex is not a substance addiction, that this is a process addiction. I'm just curious, I'm like, do you have anything to add to that when it comes to like the analogy of food and sex and this idea of being full or not full? Like, because my brain's running a million miles an hour, I'm like, whether it's being, you know, from a sexual standpoint, like sex addiction is not about sex, it's about relationship and connection. Yes, right. And so this idea of being full would be probably right connections with others, whether that's group members or spouses or your own spouse. Like, do you have anything to say about that?

Yeah, I mean, I think the connection with our processes of food and sex is that we are meant to, in some degree, to consume. Like, you don't quit eating to get healthy in your food. You make better choices. And I think there's a parallel there. And that doesn't mean that we have to have sex because being a sexual being is far more than the physical act of having sex because otherwise single people would somehow like cease to exist. Right, exactly. But you can be a single person and fully alive in your sexuality in other ways that are not violating the word of God. And so I think that's something we do miss in our faith, that we feel like, well, with food, yeah, you need healthier habits. With sex, it's just abs, just don't go there, don't think about it. Versus embracing, like, I have been made in God's image by God as a sexual being. What does it mean to, in a healthy way, acknowledge my longings, my desires, my need for connection that don't have to include physical sex to experience that. So it's less of a just keep it away model and more of how do I consume what's healthy and good for me and leads to more life rather than leading towards destruction.

I was saying, just to speak to the single who might be listening right now, because I'm now 28, I'm engaged currently, but still I have not had sex. Not there yet. Not quite yet. And the reality is I found for me that the fulfillment of my sexuality, and again, there's a nuanced thought here, so track with me. Yeah. Because of course I wasn't having sex, but I'm like, sex isn't about an orgasm and just simply the climax at the end of this physical encounter. Like, it is really about being known, right? Like, absolutely. You go back to Genesis and it's Adam knew his wife. Yep. And yes, there is a physical component. I'm not trying to cut it out, but there's also a deep knowing to be— it's David crying out in the psalm, search me, Lord, know me. And it's just like As a single, I have access to that. And it was in a Pure Desire group that I first began to learn that, where I got honest with my top 4 sexual secrets with 3 other guys. And I'm like, what is happening? I didn't know I could be this radically honest and— oh yeah, loved. Because it's a Tim Keller quote. Yes, yes, yes. Fully known and fully loved is our greatest desire. Yes. But to be fully known and not loved is our greatest fear. And that's that risk point. But just to your point, Nick, it's not just physical sex or no physical sex, but it's this yearning, this longing to be deeply known and deeply loved. And I have been deeply known and deeply loved by so many men. Yes. That my fiancée— yes— is not jealous of the relationships I have with women. She is jealous of the relationships I have with men. Let that sink in. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? She's like, because so many men know you so intimately. Yes. And it will take time in our relationship as it continues to deepen. Yes. For her to get there, to be known. But I've walked with some of these men for years. Again, the power of community to live a porn-free life. And the question, Allen, that's just next on our task, I think you've already answered it a bit, is like, how can you get porn addicts who are often avoidant— addiction and avoidance are so tied together— to commit to disciplines? And I just want to repeat back to you what you said. Yeah. You said that reading, or the discipline of reading scripture or a book, has been difficult for you, but listening has been helpful, which is why some of you right now you're like, yes, that's why I'm listening to this podcast right now. Oh, sure. —And I just connected with one of our Team 58 members, just a monthly donor to Pure Desire in the Colorado area, who said, "John, there's volumes of literature that Pure Desire has created." He's like, "And I'm just not a reader, and I don't really love workbooks." He's like, "But I started listening to the podcast on my commute to work and home from work, and I was being saturated." You used the word "steeped." Oh yeah. Submerged. He's like, "I was so submerged in your guys' content that I couldn't help 'But buy the workbook.' I don't even like workbooks. He's like, 'But I bought the workbook. I joined a group, and I began doing the work.' So just—

yeah, and it wasn't until 500 years ago that anybody got to read the Bible, right? It's true. It was all audio. Yeah, 100%. That's the only way other than the people up on the platform could hear what he said. Good point. And Walt, the guy who's had the most profound influence on my life, this construction guy that met with me constantly. Walt has vision problems, so he rarely reads. It's all here, but he just listens to it and listens. He says, Alan, I'll give you the verse, tell me the address. Where is that? Which chapter is that in? So the audio— so for someone who— how do I— if I recall your question properly, how do I immerse myself in this? Maybe you already have a Walt Townsend, a Ron Frost, a Ron Jensen, a Tom Lehman, a Gary Albers, a Chris Drew. Oh, I just get around these people. So really ask the Lord as you have been able to experience with men and as a couple. There's this lady named Carol Buzzo, she's now with the Lord. I mean, you give with these people, you're like, wow, Lord, are you this good? You know, Lydia Luthi, this elderly lady that I mentioned. So community, isolation as we know kills, right? Yeah. There was one of our missionaries, Dale and Carla Walker, the couple, Africa for a career, and he says, we're going on a hike one day and there was a shepherd with sheep It was really something, it was gorgeous. And he says, "And then we went for our hike and we came back down and the shepherd was no longer there and the sheep were somewhere else, but there was just a pile of blood and bones 'cause we did notice that one sheep was by himself and we saw the carnage that happened." So, you know, as you've mentioned, you've had enough of a relational bridge to handle the weight of you telling the truth. And now it has less and less hold on you. And asking the Lord, whether it's ladies listen to this or guys, Lord, give me that person or persons that, you know, honestly, Walt now, like I said, lives in Arizona. Every time I think of his name, just this wash of well-being comes over me. Wow. Because I know One day I was scheduled to speak on the role of the Holy Spirit in the services. In fact, we only had Wednesday, Thursday, Friday to study. So man, you don't have time to talk to anybody. You got to go to work. But I thought, gosh, if I don't talk to Walt about walking in the Holy Spirit— So I rush in on a Thursday to a restaurant in Gresham. I'm uptight because, man, I haven't got it forever. He goes, hey, how are you? I go, "Just shut up. Just shut up. I'm speaking on the role of the Holy Spirit and you're living with him. Just shut up." Because there are people with whom the presence of God— and we all have, let me interject this, we all have our way of kind of navigating life because of our background with our parents. You know, I tell my wife I'm a recovering perfectionist. She says, "You're not recovering." You haven't recovered very much. No, no, no. No, because the fact that I approach things the way I approach things doesn't mean that every personality type, the way God shaped you, but somewhere, someone, somehow, let him sing over you and embrace you and say, "Alan, I know who you are. I knew who you were." You know, you look at Ephesians chapter 1, 2, and 3, you know, we're dead in our trespasses. Chapter 1, in love he predestined us to adoption. Adoption of sons through Jesus Christ according to the kind intention of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace. You know, with the grace that he lavished on us— let me take a little detour here. One of the ways, and this isn't unique to Alan's personality, having the word of God in you, just in you, as it relates to this particular topic of sexual staying sexually free mentally and literally out in the physical world is Jesus, Matthew 4, tempted. It is written. Yeah. It is written. It is written. So, for me, it's Philippians 4:8. You know, when I'm mentally tempted to undress a woman mentally, which, you know, the temptation is not the sin. It's like a lure. Yeah, it's when you bite. Yeah, Jesus was tempted in all ways even as we, yet without sin. So, to be tempted isn't to sin. Now what do I do? Now what do I do? For me, Philippians 4:8, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there's any excellence and anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. I was in Ukraine, my first overseas trip, 2003, teaching pastors, all of whom's parents had been taken by the KGB and never seen again. But they became pastors anyway. Now they come 5 times a year for 2 weeks of biblical instruction. I'm there for 2 weeks, never been overseas before. I needed something from the administration office, and I walked up and a secretary for the president. She speaks Russian. I don't speak, you know, she don't. And it was like Panamá. Well, she was gorgeous. And I thought, I'm not coming back to this office. She didn't do anything wrong. She was dressed modestly. There's two things I'd like to say if it's okay in terms of how biblically I have been able to get and stay free through the fierce fight of faith. But so literally what I would do is I get done with my class, there's one in the morning, one in the afternoon, and I could walk up the short way, which would take me to my apartment, which would give you a chance to take a peek at her. Or I went the other way and I go, Alan, you know who you are. You are a new man in Christ. You love Christ, you love the Lord Jesus, you love Theta, you know who you are. Whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there's any excellence in anything worthy of praise, dwell on those things. And I'd unlock the door and I go, yes, I made it! I made it! I made it! I didn't dishonor her, I did not shame the Lord, and I did not get disloyal to Theeda. That's my life. I do that all the time. In the middle of the night when you wake up, you know, having a whole boatload of scripture, but that particular scripture— the other key scripture for me, that again, this isn't my personality type, this is freedom for us all. 1 Peter 2:11, abstain, which means hold yourself back, abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war with your soul. Let me illustrate it this way. Okay, cell phones, answering machines, those of us who are really old, which I am, there used to only be landlines, no caller ID. No voicemail. And you would answer a phone, even when you were a kid, and it was an obscene phone call. Man, it is just a litany of the filthiest things you've ever heard. And what do you, it takes you a minute to figure out, maybe I shouldn't shout. Shut up! Don't you ever call here again! That happens. Did you initiate the call? No. Yeah, you answered the call. So abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against your soul. So if the real Alan loves to think lustful thoughts, undress women, imagine this, think this, go down that rabbit hole, and Alan's flesh is saying, oh man, this is inevitable, you know, linger a little longer watching that advertisement. If Allen's person was wanting to do that, and Allen's flesh— where's the war? There is a war. Abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war with who you are. It was one of the major breakthroughs for me in walking with Christ is realizing I have a flesh, but I am not my flesh. I am not my flesh. J.I. Packer puts it this way: I have an unwelcome cellmate. And we hear these suggestions so frequently from our flesh. In our own tone of voice, we think it's us. We're gonna— I'm still thinking the same rotten stuff. I'm still receiving the same information. But when you realize you are not your flesh, you can hang up. I know who I am. That's why I said, Alan, you know who you are. I have a flesh. I am not my flesh, and we know in Galatians it says that in one of the New Living Translations, 1996 edition of the New Living Translation, it says, "The flesh desires this, the spirit desires that, and your decisions are never free from this conflict." Yeah, I love what you're showing us just by your stories, your illustrations from the word of God, that Allen, you have internalized these verses.

Yes. And I think that's maybe a distinction I would want to make because we've said like, you know, trying harder doesn't break you free. You can't just quote more scripture at it. And what I think we mean when we say that is the rote quoting of scripture is not in and of itself like some magic shield. Now, the word of God has power. It always has power. But that's very different than internalizing an experience of this is what that verse means to me. This is how I picture it. And I think that's very much what we try to train men and women within a Pure Desire group is it's not just another Bible study, but when we use scripture, It's an invitation to see yourself in that scripture, to experience it. And so then when you need it, whether it's the middle of the night or because you walk by someone that's triggering or that old temptation is swimming by in your life, you're not just saying words at it from the Bible, you're internalizing your experience of the word of God that is much greater than whatever that other voice is saying. And yeah, just, I love the way you're kind of living that out on the podcast. Like, this is how I do it. Oh, this is what I do. And for someone listening, you might be like, well, I'm no, I can't be like Alan. Well, Well, you can. It may not be Allen's verses or Allen's stories, but if you're listening and hearing this, the Word of God can become personal and real to you as you live into it and ask God to truly bring to life, like, what will be your safeguards? What will be those words that when something else that sounds like you is tempting you to go astray, that word now has this deep personal meaning that helps you to go in the right direction?

Yeah, and the reason why I listen to Gentle and Lowly and this more recent book released in October by Francis Chan, Beloved, is because I do have a protective— I have some, you know, I'm packing all the time with Scripture. But most of my time—

Wait, you have a concealed carry, is that what you're saying?

It's not concealed, it's right here. Most of my time in Scripture that I try to get in here, I just stare at it. I just stare at it and stare at it some more, is the Father's affection for me. You know, Ephesians 1:2-3, you know, Ephesians 2 there in verse 4, but God being rich in mercy because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins, made us alive together with Christ. It is by grace you've been saved, and seated us with him in the heavenly places, so that in the coming ages he might show the excessive grace in kindness towards me. So I take most of my stuff, Psalm 63, Psalm 16, Psalm 73, whom have I in heaven but you, and earth has nothing I desire besides you, is I am saying, Lord, by your Spirit, press this into my soul. And then when I'm with friends who are going, oh man, listen to this, Allen, Oh, really? Okay. So we become like our crew. Yeah. You know, that's why we don't want our kids to hang out with the wrong crew. They're going to become like them. Yeah. So find a crew, even if you don't say anything, if you just sit there. You know, I came to Christ on a Tuesday. Saturday morning, Ron Jensen took me to a men's Bible study. It blew my mind. There are men my dad's age. My dad didn't know Christ. And I go, oh my gosh, holy cow. So just hang with people who've got the real contagion and catch it. Yeah.

I want to come back. You said earlier you were quoting somebody, but that passages of Scripture were always meant to be passages into the presence of God. Yeah, here it is. And Alan, I love that imagery of like, hey, this is— if we're just seeing this as an opaque piece of paper, It's not going to go very far. But if this is the window in through we get to see and know and experience the heart and the kindness and the compassion and the person— the person— of Christ, I want to know him.

Yeah. Well, and let me quote that again, and then I'll share one other nuance if it's okay. Please. She said, "Imagine a passage of Scripture as a passageway into the presence of Jesus, where we sit and have deep conversation with him, speaking, listening." and treasuring. Ron Frost puts it this way. Ron is 78 years old, lifetime single. Wow. So when you were dealing with the sexuality in the single person, Ron is not, "Ugh," you know, thumbs down. He knows, he says, "The Lord has chosen not to take me to that garden." Wow. And I am having a great life.

Oh my gosh, can we get Ron on the podcast? Oh, he's special.

Oh my gosh. Anyway, here's the deal. I love how he said this. He says so many of us read this book kind of like, well, you know, I went to a Bible study and gee, let's outline that sentence and let's outline that book. And he jokes, he says, okay, my fictitious fiancée Blanche— and actually I'm going to switch over to Theda and myself because I've stolen his illustration. Okay, we have 16 grandkids. Our oldest daughter and her husband, he's a Missions Aviation Fellowship pilot, 8 years in Borneo, 8 years in— 11 and a half years in Uganda. So, Theeda has traveled 16 times, 30 days at a time, 8 to Borneo and 8 to Africa because the oxygen for a woman's soul is her grandchildren. She has to be there. There are times when Theeda's gone for 30 days that she leaves me a note or a series of notes. And, you know, I'm by myself for those 30 days. And yet, I've got this note from Theeda, and I just don't read it. You know, whatever. I mean, it's the end of the day, or something. I mean, I sit down, I've got a cup of tea, I'm like, whoa, here we go. And I open it up. And what Ron does is he said, you don't go, man, that's odd. Theeda put an object at the front of the sentence. Usually it's at the end of the sentence. And I've never seen her use that adjective. Yeah, yeah, and that adjective, that's unusual for her. He goes, men and women, and this is around for us, no one you know or have heard about has read Bible more than him. No one smarter than him, two bachelor's, two master's, PhD, King's College London. He goes, if you don't know that this book is about his affection for you, you don't know what you're reading. As a matter of fact, his PhD was on affective theology. Once he captures your heart, your will will obey. Whatever you love, You do. And he says, if you sense and experience his affection for you, you will. Otherwise, it's like holding ping pong balls down in a swimming pool. You just can't do it enough. I'm just tired. Either the Christian life doesn't work or I don't know how it works. Yeah. And so it's a matter of— so when Theda— I can actually hear her tone of voice when I read that letter. Yeah. And that's what he's saying.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. And that maybe is a summary of the heart of this podcast. It's like in our recovery or in our life, the goal is truly to fall in love with Jesus. Yes. Who is deeply in love with us. Yes. You know what you were saying, John, earlier about knowing and being known by him and recognizing before Christ, I've got nothing to lose, nothing to gain, nothing to hide. Like, I'm, I'm with him and he's with me. It, it then produces more of what we love because we want to be like him. And, and so many of us, that's not the language of our faith. That's not the language of religion or church. We kind of learned you know, do this, don't do that, go here, this is what it means to be a good Christian. But the heart of it is whatever spiritual discipline or activity you're choosing, whether it's scripture, meditation, prayer, journaling, worship, the goal is Jesus and to get close to him. And if that's not what we're doing, then try something else.

Yes. And don't feel bad that you're not doing what you heard. Yeah. Do what he gave you. Ron puts it this way. He says Satan's nasty little trick is to say, I'm doing so poorly. Oh my gosh, what? I gotta change. I'm doing better. Yay! He goes, either way, your eyes are off the Lord Jesus. Yeah, they're on you. Satan's nasty little trick is you play spiritual whack-a-mole. Yeah, yeah. And he goes, you know, John chapter 3, before 3:16, is where it says, as Moses held up the serpent, how did you get healed? He goes, you look. Okay, now what do I do? He goes, You look. You look.

Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. Before we run out of time, Alan, I want to make sure to get to one other topic or question. It might be the last one we have time for, but would you speak a little bit about how you could see couples doing this together? Oh, yeah. Because I think, especially in recovery and those listening to our podcast, many of them are trying to reintegrate a faith that isn't isolating but draws them closer to their spouse. So how have you seen that happen and how would you encourage couples that they would say, we barely know how to pray together because it just feels so awkward. Like, how would you encourage them to start doing some of this as a couple?

I've got some ideas. First of all, when a wife hears her husband pray, it does things to her soul. And the guy goes, look, I'm not a pastor. I'm in the seminary. There is a book entitled Face to Face. You can get it off Amazon. It is beautifully written by a man named Kenneth Boa, B-O-A, Face to Face, Kenneth Boa. It takes scripture and it's very, you know, if a man were to say, honey, to say I'm a rookie, we both know it, but I'm gonna give it a go. And ladies, if your man is willing to do that, you know spirit, ladies, you know spirit. You know that maybe he's not perfect and he got angry yesterday and there's all these things, but if your man is willing to lead, you know, the most powerful thing Thea ever says to me is not that she loves me, I like that, is when she turns to me and says, "Alan, I'm proud of you." Ladies, if your man gives it a go in some of these areas, just tell him, "Sweetheart, I'm proud of you." Okay, I'll try again. So this book, Face to Face, if you read it, gentlemen, as a prayer time and just read what it says, it only is gonna take you 4 or 5 minutes, but what it does is it takes really cool scriptures and shapes them into prayers. You're praying scripture, so that's a good possibility. Paul Tripp's Morning Mercies. Anything written by Paul Tripp is like, yo, that is so good. Anyone who gets the book, and it's a daily devotion, and let's say you make it twice a week. Yay, that's more than zero. Don't feel like, ah, we didn't do it every week. This is not a performance. This is a relationship. So Morning Mercies. The other thing is, guys, in terms of connecting with your bride, you know, a FamilyLife marriage event. Gosh, you get in this place and it's just so, so good.

And that goes to what you said about getting around people that are ahead of you, that you're modeled by, like a weekend retreat, like Weekend to Remember. Oh yes. Other marriage encounters, like it's meant for you to watch and learn, like, oh, we could do that. We can learn from them and incorporate those things into your marriage.

Yes. And FamilyLife events are fun. Those of us who had the honor to be on the speaker team for a long time, You know, the first two sessions already make you think, "Geez, it's gonna be a whole lot more fun than I thought it was gonna be." And I mean, these are superb communicators with pure hearts and long histories. So those are some practical things that could happen. And then just, you know, if you guys, you know, as husband and wife, you do spend some time in the Word individually. Say, "Honey, has the Lord been giving you something that has just been encouraging, concerning, convicting?" But, you know, as our friend Sue Weber said, masculinity can be defined as initiative. Just give it a go. But ladies, make it a soft landing when he gives it a go.

Yeah, well said. I'll say, just as we wrap up, I'm coming back, Nick. You might know the author of this quote more than I do. But, you know, the idea of like, it's, you were talking about the temptation and the lure. This is just totally reverting back, sorry, but there's also the quote about the birds. Do you remember who is the author of that quote? It simply is, "You can let the birds—" Yeah, Martin Luther.

That's an old Martin Luther quote, yeah.

Okay, "You can let the birds fly overhead." "You don't have to let them build a nest in my hair." And I remember early on in my recovery journey, just again, coming, circling back to like disciplines and whatnot, that was so transformational for me, 'cause I think I had believed for so long that my sexuality was just plain bad. Yeah, 100%. And that all desire was evil. But to be like, "Okay, I'm tempted right now. That doesn't mean I have to be ashamed or guilty. I can let it go and not let it take root or nest." Yes. But then second, Allen, you— again, I'm just— I'm really struck by this idea of the passage and a passage into the presence of Christ. Yes. And I want to ask you a question, Nick. What passage has potentially meant the most to you in your recovery journey from the standpoint of experiencing the love of Jesus? Like, was there a transformational moment for you specifically, maybe a story or a context where you've like really found yourself?

Yeah, I think Allen was actually quoting some of it in Ephesians 2, and that verse, the end of that thought is Ephesians 2:10, that for we are God's masterpiece created anew in Christ Jesus to do the good works for which he designed us long ago. And as someone who I think a lot of my addiction was wrapped up in performance and being good enough and like being on a stage and people go, "Oh, wow, we are so proud of you." It was always like if I performed well enough, I would be loved, and I would put a lot of that on God. And to think that before I had ever done a single thing, the way I see Ephesians 2 and God's sovereignty and his knowledge of us, before I had done a single thing, he was already calling me his masterpiece because of his work of grace in my life. So not because of what I had done. When he points to us as examples It's not examples of how good we are. He's pointing to us as examples of his goodness and his grace at work in us. And then he looks at us and says, "That's my masterpiece." And just trying to remember on days when I feel like anything but a masterpiece, it's like, you know, I'd be lucky just to be like on the bottom shelf of someone's bowling trophy display. But God says, "That's my masterpiece. And from long ago, I designed you to do good works." It's like, "Okay, I think I can do this. Let's go for it." I know we don't normally do this.

Could we have like Allen pray that people in our audience would like actually see themselves like that as a masterpiece?

Yeah, we've loved this, Allen, and I think everyone has something they can take out, this encouragement of while we know that we don't, you know, find freedom just by trying harder and doing more of the same, there is life in the Word and there is life in Christ, and that's what we've— I think you've said so well today in a lot of different ways. Yeah, would you, as a way of wrapping up, would you pray for our audience and that they would experience in their recovery the fullness of life with Christ?

You bet. Father, who are we to know you, but thank you before the creation of the world, you chose us to be adopted, to be yours, to be, you say in that same book of Ephesians, to be holy and blameless in your sight. Father, I love the word from my friend Stu Weber who said that the truest thing about you is what your Father says about you, not what you say about yourself. Father, you know we are just, we are hungry, we're desperate. We need today, we need the next breath, we need the next heartbeat. We need to experience your kind, affectionate, transforming spirit. So that we can know, walk, and adore, and be adored by the Lord Jesus. Oh Father, we know ourselves, we know our flesh so well, and frankly, we're sick of it. We're just sick of it. So do what you did when you brought us to you and keep rescuing us moment by moment. I think of this wonderful quote, 100% grace, 100% need, 100% of the time. Do what only you can do, and we love going on the journey with you. We pray in Christ's name.

Amen. Amen. Amen. Alan, thank you, my friend.

Oh, great to be with you.

Great to have you on today. Thanks, friends. And to you, our listener, thanks for joining us. If you're a fan of the content, please share it with somebody else. This is a great one to pass along and say, I think you'll be deeply encouraged by this. Write us a review, give it a like. That's not to make us feel good, that really helps more people encounter this life-giving content. And if you want more information on Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.