In this podcast episode, John, Nick Stumbo, and a second speaker discuss the pervasive shame surrounding sexuality within many Christian contexts. They describe a sin‑shame cycle that functions as a fear‑driven addiction loop, where shame triggers fight‑or‑flight responses and leads to secretive, acting‑out behavior. To break the cycle, they propose vulnerability and storytelling—sharing not only sin narratives but also personal shame and trauma stories—to foster accountability and relational healing. A key theological shift is separating natural arousal from the concept of lust, encouraging curiosity and blessing of the body rather than immediate condemnation. They share a practical anecdote about a colleague, Rodney, who suggested thanking God for sexual ability as a form of stewardship. Nick expands the discussion with a Genesis 3 reflection, arguing that desire existed before the fall and is not inherently sinful, but can be redirected toward healthy connection and responsibility. Overall, the conversation offers a framework for re‑framing sexual desire, practicing gratitude, and integrating biblical insight to escape the shame cycle.
Chapters
So many of us were raised to think that our bodies and our sexuality were dangerous or something to be feared, which can contribute to the shame cycle. Be ashamed. Be ashamed. You are shame. Your body is shame. Be ashamed. So the question is, how do we break out of the shame cycle? Like, if that's where we find ourselves, afraid of our sexuality and stuck in shame, how do we break out?
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think, um, just to honor this idea that the shame cycle is, you know, sin, shame, sin, shame, sin, shame, sin, shame, right? It's, it's that pull to hide, um, which we know is the cycle of addiction, right? And acting out is, I— there must be something wrong with me, and so I hide, which further isolates us. Leads us to acting out, right? That, that gets you stuck in that sin-shame cycle. Um, at some level, um, you know, I'd want to honor that shame is a form of fear at its heart. Um, shame is literally— puts the body in fight or flight. It's a stress response to run. So it— we actually can't handle shame very long, um, like half a second, and, and then we need to do something to escape it because it's so deadly. That feeling of exposure and rejection feels imminent. And so what do we do? We run, right? Like we're running from a bear, except we're the bear.
So we have to, you know, the bear is on our shoulders and going everywhere with us, right?
And so you have to find a way to get away from the parts of yourself you think are bad. And so we tend to bury it in silence and secrets. Silence and secrets, right? And that becomes the double life. And so how do you break it? Well, some degree of you have to speak. You have to bring yourself vulnerably into relationships somewhere. And, and, you know, we may know that as well. Oh, you mean accountability? Well, I do in one part, but also then what you guys are naming, which is beginning to tell your story, right? Not just the story of your sin and your bad behavior, so to speak, but the story of your sexuality, the story of your trauma. What, what What is your shame story? Not just your sin story. Um, meaning getting vulnerable with all of you. Uh, the other thing I'd want to name is, yes, we tend to equate, um, you know, anything that moves in us as bad, right? Like, anything sexual that I feel must be lust, and so I've got to shut it down. And I think one of the most important things you can do as well is Beginning to separate out arousal from lust or desire, right? That, that being okay with God made your body sexual and not everything that moves in you is inherently an act of lust. So being able to start to bless your body, it starts with curiosity, right? Like Oh, being curious in the tub about your penis is— that's okay. That's actually natural, right? So being able to bless arousal versus, um, you know, obviously confronting lust. Lust is something we participate in. It's something that we go with, right? And, and I think in, in the Christian culture, we've tended to like mush all that together. And just say, well, sexuality is just bad. And so anything that moves in me is bad. And I wouldn't say you need to be curious about your arousal. Oh, what's happening? I'm feeling sexual feelings. But not to just right away shut it down and say, oh my gosh, oh, that was— I must be having lust and impurity and I've got to shut it down. It just— I think that can contribute again to You know, we, we end up shutting down the body to try to kill off the flesh.
Yep, correct.
Uh, and, and we need to leave room for actually you have a body and it's okay that it responds to the world. Um, that's, that's not inherently sinful.
Yeah, same. It was 5 years ago, I was on a call with one of our co-workers Rodney, and for anybody who's listened to the podcast for a length of time, they know who Rodney is. And he literally said to me, John, The next time you're aroused, I want you to thank God for the ability.
And I'm like, oh, what?
Like, I can't do that because I grew up believing, and even 5 years ago at the age of 23, I believed that all of my sexuality outside of the context of marriage was lust, evil, and not to be trusted. And Rodney's saying, that's a, that's a good part of you, right? What we do with it can be destructive or not destructive. He's like, so name it, thank God for the ability, your body's good, and then steward it wisely.
I was like, oh, the paradigm, you know.
All of me is like shaking on this sidewalk because I'm taking this phone call in Portland.
I'm like, I can't handle this.
I've been speaking at some Christian colleges lately, and I just find myself thinking a lot about Genesis 3 and the reality that when Adam and Eve were in the garden and the enemy was tempting them. They were in a perfectly created world, free of sin, before the fall, and they had a strong desire to reach out and take hold of something that God had said was not good for them. Even though you pointed out in another episode, like, they had all the trees of the garden, but that one that God had said, 'This is not good for you,' they had this desire to possess it. And I'm like, wait a minute, I would call that desire sin. I'd call that wrong. I'd call that bad. But this was happening before sin and the fall. So something in our desire to have, to grab, to even to love, that capacity for lust is actually built into God's created order. And it messes with my mind a little bit to think, well, wait a minute, then it, then it has a good function in me. It has a good purpose. And it's not just the lust of the flesh to, you know, lust after a woman, that maybe it's about that strong desire to connect, to have belonging, to have ownership in this world, to be responsible for things, and it, it can lead me even to want and desire things that aren't mine to have or to hold. But that isn't— the desire isn't sinful. And it's just like, that's such a different way than how we were brought up.
