A multi-speaker podcast discussion (hosts: Josh, Trevor, Nick Stumbo; guest: Shana) about practical tools and experiences for healing and long-term freedom in marriage from sexual/behavioral struggles. Speakers describe concepts like the "faster scale" and the "double bind", emphasize holistic tools (groups, podcasts, accountability), and link daily life management (procrastination, communication, rituals) to relapse prevention and relational healing.
Let's go more into some of these tools that you're talking about. And for you, Shana, like, what were things you discovered? What were some of those key elements that started to create a healthy environment in your marriage and create freedom for the long haul?
Did you say start with you?
Sure, yeah.
Well, I know that.
I mean, just what comes to mind initially is the faster scale. I think that for me was and Josh, but it was like, I think that's actually what was the baby step. I think I listened to your guys podcast on that. So that opened the door to this podcast, which was also an amazing resource for me. Early on, before I had joined a group, I was able to just kind of binge on your guys.
And you said, join the group. You joined a Betrayal and beyond.
Yeah, I did. I eventually joined a Betrayal and beyond group, which was amazing. But before that, I had done a lot, like, listened to, I don't know, tons of the episodes that were just so eye opening for me because it helped me to just continue down the path of realizing that I'm. Maybe I'm not manifesting in the same way or like, my coping mechanism doesn't look the same as Josh's, but I, too, get on the faster scale. I too, have coping mechanisms. I hit relapse, whether it's binge eating late at night or, you know, scrolling on my phone or whatever. Like, I. It was just the eye opening moment for me. I mean, moments. It was a time of life where I was learning so much and my mind was just being kind of renewed. And then, of course, the group was really powerful too. There's different elements that were just healing because, like, being in a group with other women and seeing, like, there were beautiful women in my group. And so that alone was like, okay, all of these women are here. They're beautiful. Men are married to them, and they're obviously not the reason that their husbands are struggling. So that just helped me to, like, affirm what Josh had always said, told me that it wasn't like me and my body. It wasn't like he never wanted me to see it as a personal issue, but as a woman, that's a very natural feeling and reaction. So that was healing in itself, just sitting in a room with other women. So lots of. Lots of things were pivotal. But I would say learning about the faster scale, you know, having it become more personal to me and realizing, like, Josh is a human, a sinful human, and so am I, you know, yeah.
All of the tools are so good. I'll have conversations with especially younger guys who first get into group. And then they'll tell me, oh, it's not going very well, or different things. And I say, well, are you making your phone calls every week? No, we don't really do phone calls. How do you do it without the phone calls? And then like the double bind. How does that. What's the double bind again? I always get confused by that one. It's like the double bind is like what I live in. I live in the world, which is full of double binds. Yeah. And the dough. And so if I can just talk about the double bind for a second is now I feel like I have to explain it. Can you explain it really quick and then I'll riff off of that?
Sure.
A double bind, a really easy way to say it is like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
I didn't want to cuss. That was my real problem.
Yeah.
And that's not swearing. It's like damning something to hell. Is not, you know, Josh. Goodness gracious.
To each his own. So, okay, so you have to put.
The explicit tag on this episode. Josh, Thanks a lot. Go ahead.
So if we already. Because I already said penis earlier, so nevermind. We can cut all this out, right?
Nope, we are keeping it in.
Okay, so the double bind you have. You have this thing where something is in your life that you don't want to have to face, and you don't want to have to face it, because whatever you do, you're gonna have to face a consequence or a problem from it. And whether that's having a conversation with your wife about restrictions on your phone, that's a double bind. Because I want restrictions on my phone, but if I don't talk to her about it, then who's gonna put the restrictions on my phone? Or. I mean, there's a million double binds and all of those. The word that kind of comes back is procrastination. And that was the thing for me is in my life, if I have a lot of that going on in my life, I start to ramp up on that faster scale. And if I can manage procrastination and deal with my double binds, and that's just dealing with life. Like, that's just being healthy, paying your bills on time and doing these basic things you wouldn't think are related to sexual addiction, but end up being a bigger deal than trying to bat away a temptation or like a rubber band trick thing, trying these little hacks when you know you actually have to deal with your life and have. Know where you are and kind of a little bit about where you're going. And. And the tools are really, really helpful to do that.
What I think so interesting about the answers we get to this question is they are tools. But it's not like I. I want to be careful with this. Like, it's not that I was tempted sitting at my computer at 12:30 at night to watch porn and masturbate, and I prayed really hard, and then things got better. Like, there are tools that are very holistic. Like, there are tools that. Using the double bind, understanding that it's not just that I'm a sexual person and that I have temptations that causes me to pursue porn and masturbation and like, just being around other people, you know, who are beautiful people that have husbands too. Like, that in and of itself was healing. But that's not like choosing to not freak out at your husband for relapsing. Again, like, that's so different. I just think it's so interesting because this question, we're looking for those, like, silver bullet things. And one of the things I've heard Nick say a lot, and I'm probably going to butcher it, so if you'd like to just take it and run with it, you can. But that idea that, like, if you have to repair a ship, don't do it in the middle of a storm. Do it before you even set out to sea. And that idea of knowing that there are things that lead you down the faster scale to then get to relapse. Because knowing that, okay, this thing that happened, this double bind, I had to face, I didn't do it. And now I feel shame about it, which means I'm procrastinating in other things, which makes you feel more shame, which makes me isolate and then. Right. And so it's just all connected. And that's what I love about really, the whole process is that it's so connected with all aspects of who we are.
But initially, it's hard to make those connections totally possible.
Yes.
And now being on the other side of that, I see it everywhere that I am. I feel like a psychoanalyst because you guys have experienced this. Somebody walks in and you're like, yeah, I've got to read on this person. Because all of those things are doing.
