Learning How To Break Through Denial | Ep. 474

Mr. Tyler Tinsen, welcome back to the Pure Desire Podcast.

It's always good to be here. Thank you for the invite.

It's always good to see you. You informed us before the episode began that it's not 100 in Phoenix.

No, not yet.

It's only 98. Well, we appreciate you jumping on for this important topic of how do we you know, when our struggle with pornography has come into the light, how do we break out of that denial? Because it's one thing for the issue in general to be known, for this behavior to kind of come to light, but to actually break out of the patterns of denial we've maybe been stuck in is another layer of recovery. It can be challenging and frightening. And so I'm just grateful that you can be a voice of kindness and compassion and truth in this area. So let's, let's dive in. How does stepping out of denial align with God's call for all of us to walk in the light? And what does that look like practically in a marriage that's now facing betrayal from pornography use or other compulsive sexual behavior? How do we, how do we stop denial individually and within our marriage?

Yeah, thank you, Nick. Uh, I will say one thing about denial. It's a familiar companion to those who struggle with compulsive sexual behavior. Very familiar. It's about hiding, about deception and protection to some degree. It doesn't mean it's healthy, but it's familiar. But somewhere in the person's journey, denial has felt less threatening than facing reality. But we know that's a lie. Feels true, but it's a lie. And denial, it's a refusal to accept reality. Who has turned toward reality. Practically speaking, stepping out of denial requires courage. It's a new path, it's a new direction. Also a willingness to take a risk, to be known. Breaking through denial, learning to practice new behaviors. This is new territory and it's scary. To be known is intimidating, especially those areas where we have operated in the shadow. Yeah, that's intimidating. And it's radical honesty at all cost. That's what's required. Step in the light. And we're called to walk in the light. And the shadow behavior is around denial.

Yeah, Tyler, you— I think you hit it. Hit the head on the— or the nail on the head. Um, denial is that safe place for a lot of us, was for me. And then when you finally are faced with your addiction, whatever it is that you're dealing or you're hiding or you're, you're breaking— seeking isolation from, I mean, whatever that is, once it comes out, there is that risk. It's like, okay, am I gonna risk it all just to be— I like what you said, fully known, and just like The best thing that ever happened to me was becoming fully known and being forced to deal with my own issues. And it was at that point where it's like, I don't have to live in secret. I don't have to live in denial anymore. And it was such a freeing feeling in that moment. It's like I've been living that way for over 20 years, and then all of a sudden, like that, being confronted, it was gone. It was just, okay, now I can start the healing process. Not easy, difficult.

Yeah, yeah, it is very hard but can be very freeing.

Yeah.

I know that as we started our recovery journey, now 16 years ago, it was really helpful for me to learn about the concept of cognitive dissonance, and that is where our brain chooses to believe one thing even while it contradicts the way that we're behaving. And so I think in my faith, if I were to, deny, stop denying that I had a problem, be willing to accept that I was addicted to pornography, that was like believing I was a bad Christian, that my faith was weak, that I didn't know how to do life without this, you know, horrible sin in my life. And so to not have to accept that, I would deny that the behavior was a problem, deny that it was that big of a deal, and really kind of lie to myself. But that cognitive dissonance, our brain doesn't know what to do with it. And so our our brain is actually like helping us choose that because it wants to feel safe. It wants to feel like my life is in alignment with my beliefs. And if I can deny that it's really a problem, then I don't have to deal with it. Because as soon as I acknowledge this is a problem, I've become addicted, I need help, then I would need to actually do something about it. But putting it in that category, like, oh, it's not a big deal, it's not a big problem, I don't need help, perpetuated the behavior. And so when it came out, to deal with that cognitive dissonance was incredibly healing and freeing. And I think in the marriage, that meant moving from a place of my wife saying, this is a problem and it hurts me, and me saying, man, she just doesn't get it, she just doesn't understand, to taking ownership myself to say, I'm the one that doesn't get it. I'm the one that has a problem. I haven't been willing to face it. And as I took ownership, that was a big part of breaking out of denial because I I just know the reality that a lot of us do start this journey because someone else is maybe insisting like, "You get better or I'm gonna get outta here." And so like, "Fine, I'll do it for you." But I think breaking denial is coming to that point of recognizing I've got some stuff I need to deal with and I'm not doing it for her or I'm not doing it for him. I'm doing it because I don't want this in my life anymore. And again, like you said, Rich, that ownership can be really hard, but it's also what leads us to that path of freedom.

All right, Tyler, in light of scriptures like Psalm 51, what does true repentance look like beyond just admitting wrongdoing, and why is full honesty essential to spiritual transformation?

Thank you, Rich. We're called to confess and repent, and it's occurred to me that repentance is the ultimate commitment to change. Yeah, repentance. Yeah. Not just a change of behavior, but a heart change. That's what will be required, and it's not a quick fix. Full honesty, which is truth, and truth establishes trust, and trust is the foundation of all healthy relationships. So it's a progression and a commitment to change.

Yeah, I think that's what we see, that repentance is going in a different direction. Right, not just saying how sorry I am, and hopefully we are sorry, hopefully we have said that. If we've not, that's a good place to just try to own the seriousness of what we've done and how it hurts others, hurts ourselves. But change is not a byproduct of feeling bad about what we've done. And I think that's what I missed for a long time in my life. I thought if I just feel bad enough about this, I'll change. But those feelings quickly subside. And, and we forget the pain that we've caused. And so repentance is that choosing not just to feel bad, but to change the way I do life so that I don't come back here. That's what repentance is really all about.

And that, that spiritual transformation piece, that's about movement toward becoming more Christ-like in thought, action, deeds. Circling back to the concept of walking in the light Christ is light, and there is also darkness, and we can make a choice. Do we choose to walk in the light or remain in the shadow?

Yeah, well, it's encouraging because Christ, he, he invites us to there in his open arms. You know, you look at full honesty essential to spiritual transformation. I just remember, uh, at East Hill a long time ago— we've done it a number of times, Tyler, you probably remember— we would you could go and you could take your little card or paper up to the cross. It's like, "I'm going to take this up there and God, I'm going to trust you with it. I'm going to lay it at the feet of the cross." But as you turn around, you actually start to leave and you turn around and you just pull a little corner off of that. It's like, "Well, I'm going to hold on to this. So I'm giving you this, but I'm going to hold on to this because this is that safety." And I think when you can come to full honesty, not with just yourself, but with Christ and the others around you, then that spiritual transformation really starts taking place. 'Cause he already knows I was gonna pull a piece off and keep it, but he's just waiting for me to go fully in on it.

And so for that betrayed spouse, how can they invite God into that desire to know everything and discern maybe through prayer and wise counsel which details will actually support their healing versus a level of detail that may be more harmful than good?

Yeah. I'll begin by the welcoming in of God and the Spirit of the Lord. We can trust him and we can cast our burdens upon him. He didn't cause the harm or the heartache, but he's there for us. And that betrayed spouse, she can turn to him, be honest, shed tears, anger, whatever it may be. That's a great starting point. Again, we can cast our burdens upon him. But the betrayed spouse, she's not called to walk alone either. There are others who have been down this path before her— I'll say her— that know the journey, that know the path, that can help and support and encourage and listen. Oftentimes listening is incredibly valuable for that person who has been betrayed. Uh, I will say that a lot of the urgency to know the whole story at disclosure when it's first revealed, that can be very harmful because she may not be equipped to receive and to receive well and have a compartment, if you will, to put that new information in. And he may not be equipped to provide her with the level of detail that is helpful, because not all details are helpful. I'm not sure that, uh, so, so we have to be a little cautious in entering that space where we want to know the whole story now, because oftentimes when that disclosure first occurs, the person receiving that information who feels the betrayal and the heartache, uh, there's dysregulation there. Like, I am so emotional right now, I cannot see straight. Tell me, tell me, tell me why, how, everything. And it just becomes overwhelming for both of them.

Well, and what I've seen is sometimes in that desire to know everything, there is an over oversharing, so to speak, of emotionally driven detail, blame shifting, even the fantasy life of like, these weren't actual behaviors but things I've thought of. And now it's— we've talked about it's like inviting someone actually into the depth of our sinful humanity, that that's not really us when we're talking about things like fantasy and, and whatnot. But I think for the struggling spouse, a really important mindset for them is a willingness to say, I am willing to share anything, and there's nothing I'm going to protect or keep from you. But I would also ask us to maybe get some input or to take a breath here, to take a few days to think about will that detail level help us or harm us? And I'm thinking of things like, and these are the kind of things I've heard of, I need to know the name of every person you have ever thought of lustfully. And I would say in my experience, that's generally not a helpful level of detail. Or I want to know, you know, the, the the title of any website or book or magazine you've ever looked at that you used, or to some of that extent that we might think like, well, if we just get it all out there, then I'll know everything and I'll be satisfied. And I don't think I've ever heard a story where a spouse is like, man, I got every level of detail and then I knew and we moved on. What I've heard instead is, man, some of that level of detail just became barbs of shame or fear or frustration that stuck with me long into recovery, even though we were doing much better. And they'll say, I wish I didn't know some of that level of detail. So again, for that struggling spouse, I think it's important you say, I'm not going to try to hide anything. But before we maybe answer that question, could we get some advice if this will help us? Or could we do it in a timing, in a way that gives us the best possibility to rebuild versus what happens for so many couples? There's a very emotional kind of breakdown where all of it just comes out at once, and then they spend months sifting through the wreckage of what was needed to be known and what was too much and actually created more harm than good.

Absolutely. And then the betrayed spouse will move forward with those thoughts of what the other person did and their thoughts, and then they begin to question. What are you thinking about now? What are you looking at? Where are your eyes going? Where were you then? And it just, it can become maddening. So that whole disclosure piece, it's really important to be structured, to have structure around that.

Yeah, Tyler, this next question, I'm so glad it's in here because you alluded to a little bit about disclosure and the timeline and structure. Um, and we have this question all the time in our groups. I mean, it just comes up all the time— when and how and where to do it and Um, but why might wisdom, patience, and good counsel point couples toward delaying full disclosure? And how can that waiting season become spiritually fruitful rather than frustrating? Such a good question.

Yeah, it is. And we touched— I touched a little bit, we've touched on it— those emotions are big in that moment.

She—

I'll say she wants to know why and how perhaps even a misstep by her and some blame in that, which is not accurate. But there's so many emotions that enter into that space and a need for answers and full understanding. And in that moment, I would say with a high degree of accuracy, that's almost impossible. It's almost impossible. To do that and to navigate that well. My experience in working with couples, rarely is an individual or couple prepared for full disclosure on the spot. Is to, no, we don't do that. That's what got us here. You know, not being honest and real and open. So it's not helpful to share anything or everything, I should say, and explaining reasons for certain behavior that may be sprinkled throughout that disclosure. Again, not helpful. And Nick, you had mentioned that. Can be rushed, not intentional. Can be too much information, as we've talked, or even not enough information. A staggered disclosure, you know, a death by a thousand cuts. That's what that feels like. And a support network often is not in place, and we need other people to navigate this journey and this part of recovery well. We need others.

Yeah, and what we're not saying is that the struggling or addicted spouse should just bottle up and not share anything at all until you get to full disclosure. You know, we have a blog on our website called Honesty Versus Disclosure, and what it encourages is that in this moment, you are committing to honesty. That's part of breaking denial. And saying to your spouse, if I choose to act out in any of these ways moving forward, I'm going to tell you. In the meantime, I'm engaging in recovery work, I'm going to group, we're starting with a counselor, and I am going to share a full disclosure as we're ready as a couple. But not being in this limbo, 'cause I've heard this sometimes from couples who are like, well, we're not to full disclosure yet, I can't tell you anything. And meanwhile, along the way, they're relapsing, which actually is gonna make the full disclosure even more painful. 'Cause now it's like, well, I knew something, but you were still doing it, but not telling me. So the lies and the feeling of deceit gets even higher. So I think that's the juncture you're at of saying, hey, this is in the light. We're aware of something's going on. So I'm committing now, if I relapse, that within 24 hours, I'm gonna tell you. But in terms of trying to share the whole history, let's do that in a way that is as thorough as possible. 'Cause like you said, Tyler, in both my story and in so many stories, I've heard from guys in group that stagger disclosure a little bit here, a little bit there. The, oh yeah, I forgot. It's just really, really painful. So even though it might be really challenging and we get that to hold on for the full story, that can still lead to a better outcome of the story being told in a way that is complete and thorough and from which a couple can rebuild than having this very sporadic staggered disclosure over the course of weeks and even months.

It's not uncommon when that staggered disclosure occurs. The betrayed spouse, she's just waiting for the next one, and she's living in that space of tension. It's just unfair, unfair to her.

Yeah, Tyler, maybe a follow-up question too. You know, when we have, um, couples that have to go through almost like an immediate disclosure up front, so maybe there's a safety concern or legal issue Do you see at that time it's still not a full disclosure? It sounds like it could be a full disclosure, but is there more to come? I mean, what's the process when you have a couple that are entering into that where stuff needs to be disclosed right now and it can't wait till months down the road?

Sure, I would want to make certain the betrayed spouse is supported. She cannot just step in and she's on her own within the counseling dynamic. It's got to be more than that, Rich. Could that be done? Yes. Is it optimum? No. There has to be some prep work on the front end and some healing, some traction in the work of recovery before we jump into that full disclosure process. We want to stabilize the couple. Yeah, it's, it's not ideal. Would we take that on? Yeah.

So Tyler, uh, in James 2:17 we learned that faith without works is dead. And so for the betrayed spouse, what are some things they can be looking for, some works so to speak, to show that their spouse is breaking out of denial and that they're not just saying the right things, but what could they look for in their behaviors and actions?

First thing that, that I would encourage to look for is that person's willingness, their willingness to do what is necessary to enter into that space of recovery and restoration. I've had countless calls from betrayed spouses who said, "I'm not sure my husband's willing." And I said, "We're not going to drag him into session. That's, that's just not going to work." So I would encourage this observation of a changed behavior, a willingness essentially to lay down his life and to do everything that is necessary to recover, not just him but the relationships and his future. I, I've said to a number of guys as well, well, if you're not ready We'll see in about 5 years when things get really bad. We'll see, we'll see you then. But you can choose to do the hard work. If, if the guy is a foot-dragger and unwilling to commit, uh, to healing, restoration, there'll be a difficult future. I'm sorry, but that's the reality. And just encouraging the men who, who struggle, you got to commit, you got to put everything out on the table. And be honest with, with your spouse. Again, with certain parameters around disclosure, but certainly your community, your healing community. This is new territory for guys who struggle, and so I would encourage the betrayed spouse to, to look for the honesty. And sometimes it's hard to know if he's being honest because the betrayed spouse begins to question Well, you lied about this, what about that? And so he just has to be honest in all things. The small things, yeah, are really important to be honest about. Communicating, collaborating— that, that's what I would encourage her to look for. Is he communicating well? Is he sharing perhaps some of the things he's learning about himself, about his own journey, sharing parts of his inner world? And this may be a new language that he's only now beginning to acquire. Speaking of emotions and from his heart. And that suggests there's change taking place. And as he's putting her first in his decisions, viewing his life decisions through the lens of how will this impact the betrayed person— okay, there's change there. There's potential to build upon that. Yeah, there's some things that she can look for.

Yeah, I just want to echo that, Tyler, that I think that integrity in all areas is so key. And, and both for that struggling spouse who's acknowledged their issue, for you to pay attention to that, because you might think, well, this is non-sexual. But if, if you're still, you know, fudging how you spent your money or being a little coy or deceptive about what time you'll be home from work or where you were or in just all those small ways that will really quickly undermine the recovery work you're doing. So I would say for the struggler, for the addicted spouse, like, that means so much if you begin to show integrity in those areas. And I would also add, your knee-jerk or reflex reaction might still be deception. Like, if she says, well, where were you? And, and you maybe fudge and don't mention the full the whole truth of, like, she was with these people, or— and you might realize, like, I'm not even sure why I lied. Like, I, I'm just used to it, or I was maybe afraid of this little detail might set her off, so I didn't say it. To be aware that might be your knee-jerk reaction, but it is so important that you come back around and say, hey, you asked me today what time I was going to be home from work, and I told you a time that I knew wasn't true, and I, I lied, and I'm sorry. I realized I was doing it to protect myself because I was worried if I said the real time that you would be mad and I should have just been honest and I'm sorry. I'm working to be honest in all areas of life. Would you forgive me? Because, you know, that was my story. I, in Breaking Denial, I started to realize how much lying had become a second language and not— I wouldn't call it overt lying, like covering up horrific things. It was just this subtle way of protecting myself that I would make truth look different or better than it was to make me look good. And I had to own that, like, You know what? I wasn't entirely truthful because that meal actually cost me $5 more than I said, but I was afraid you'd be mad if you knew how much, and I'm sorry that I lied. Those were humbling moments, but it helped me see how deep my desire for deception went, but it also started to show my spouse like, oh, he's serious about changing 'cause he's not just trying to avoid looking at porn. Like, he's actually seeking to become a man of integrity in all areas of life, and that, I think to our spouse is more important than simply are we avoiding that one bad behavior.

Yeah, the foundation of trust is truth. If truth does not exist, trust is gonna— trust isn't available either. That's amazing how many guys just carry in old patterns and just without even thinking, lies come out of their mouth. Deception. You gotta capture that.

So Tyler, what role does community and wise counselors play in our healing? And how does inviting others into our story play a significant role in helping us break through denial?

Yeah. Denial thrives in isolation.

Yeah.

And we're just fooling ourselves and trying to pull one over on others. Trusted communities are key. Through the restorative process. Uh, there are people there who are necessary really in the recovery process to support, provide perspective, encourage, love, those things. These are all necessary for real healing. If we continue in our little shell of isolation, denial, We're not going to grow in that space because we're in the dark, and good things don't grow well in the dark. Really don't. Um, wise counsel is that person who has gone before you. So many people think, gosh, I'm the only one. Far from the truth. There are others who have gone before you who then turn around and welcome you to move forward and to help equip you to move forward. In a healthy way. I would just encourage people to lean in and to learn from that trusted community, trusted professionals. This is where we can learn to practice openness and break that denial. Honesty, transparency, those are keys to living well and living as God intended us. And as we invite others into our story, It's the analogy that comes to mind is the scales falling off our eyes. We can see that we're not alone and that support and encouragement is there. Acceptance is there, not for what we did, but who we are. Yeah, critical component, trusted communities.

All right, Tyler, uh, I love this question. Uh, super excited to ask you this question. I remember getting asked question by counselor years and years and years ago. Um, why is it powerful to deeply understand your why for change before God, and how can revisiting that commitment help you stay anchored when emotions fade and the temptation returns?

A person's why for change is very personal, and, and I would encourage people, it's got to be big. It has to be big, and, and that's God's potential for our lives. And I'll often prompt guys especially to help them understand their why for change. I'll ask them, uh, gosh, what's at stake? What are you contending for? What are you willing to do? And what is your desired outcome? Those questions that can help promote that why and moving toward the why. It's— this is big. It's got to be big in order to really step in and do the deep, difficult work. The why is big. And oftentimes, I don't know what's out there. I don't know what the ideal in relationship can be. I've been stuck all along. I don't know what that optimum is. Well, that's when community and professionals can help, help a person really get to the point to define their why. Those are questions I often ask.

Yeah, it's such a big question. And I remember when I was faced with my why, and at that moment I had one choice, or well, two choices, but really one choice. It's like, am I going to go all in? And like you said, there's so much in the future you don't know, but I'm willing to do what it takes to experience healing that God has for me. And then I remember in just talking with Dr. Ted back in the day, he asked me, you know, why, you know, one thing, what question was why, and I just told him, I said, I want to help one guy not do what I did and help save one child. And he said, why only one? You know, so I've lived my life for the last 30 years of PD of investing in men and helping them walk through to find their why. It's like the why is such a huge— I mean, you said it is the biggest thing, part of recovery, I feel. And there's a deep meaning behind it when you really let it sink in your heart. I mean, Jesus died for me and for everybody else. I mean, that's a pretty big why. You know, to understand that and be able to take that and to help other people, oh my goodness. Yeah, it's deep-rooted in your heart.

Yeah, I think a reality is that if we've been caught in our struggle or we've chosen finally to bring that into the light, we are as motivated to change right now as we will ever be. But it is also a reality that if we start to experience change or stopping that behavior, a couple of good months can feel like, man, I'm a new man, or I'm a woman, I'm a new person. Like, things have changed. It's—

it's—

I'm free. And if that's our only motive to stop a bad behavior, we will think the journey is over way too soon. Like, well, look, it's been 2 good months. And maybe for us in our story, 2 months is the longest we've ever gone. And so we're like, I must be changed.

Yeah.

Uh, but the reality is those deeper systems, the, the flawed thinking, and what we're going to talk about in the next couple of weeks, those things take time. To cement and solidify and become a new way of doing life. And we need to go deeper and say, why do I really want to do this? Is it just to stop a bad behavior or am I looking to heal and restore my marriage? Am I looking to be a man that lives with integrity for the long haul? Because that, that, that kind of work takes time. And what I would say that we have seen, I know all three of us have seen this over and over, is that your change or your perception of changing the behavior almost always outpace the healing of your spouse. 'Cause you'll be a couple months in like, man, I haven't acted out at all, I'm doing great. And then it's like, well, why are you still so hurt? Well, emotional damage and the betrayal and the trust issues it causes in the marriage take a lot longer than a couple of good months. I remember there was a humbling moment. My wife said it to me this way, like, what you— I couldn't see what you were doing when you were doing it because you weren't showing me, you weren't telling me, it was a secret. And now that you're not doing it, I can't see that you're not doing it because that's not visible either. So maybe to you it looks like a whole bunch of change, but to me it's just still all this unknown and there could be secrecy. I don't know, I'm still living in a lot of fear and hurt and pain. It was like, oh, okay, that made sense to me. Like, I wanted her to congratulate me because it'd been a couple of good months, and she's like, these are things I can't see what you're not doing, right? Like, and her question became, what are you doing? Show me how you are changing. Be present with me, be engaged with the kids, you know, connect with me emotionally, be honest about your feelings. All these things that I maybe wasn't making as much traction as I thought because I was, I was too focused on the why of stop the bad behavior. And I want to be clear, it is good and right to stop the bad behavior, but if our why goes deeper than that to how God wants to shape our heart and restore our marriage, that is what can keep us committed to doing this work for the long haul.

Absolutely, great point. You married exceedingly well, Nick. Good job. One thing that comes to mind is, uh, our history and those who came before us and the trajectory of our family lineage. And a lot of guys say, you know what, I want to be that agent of change. Because I know the trajectory of the family, and I don't want to pass this on to my kids. And so I would often say, why you? And they're like, well, I think I'm the right person to do it. And I said, absolutely are. If not you, who? Now's the time. Engage.

Yeah, there's something powerful when we look outside of ourself at the bigger picture of what God wants to do in our families our kids, our grandkids, the generation that comes after us, and believing that we can be a part of doing it differently and passing on something better than was passed to us. And breaking denial, breaking out of that, that pattern of deception, secrecy, isolation is such a key. And so, Tyler, as we wrap up today, I mean, we're just— I feel like in some ways scratching the surface on breaking denial. But, but as we wrap up today's episode, what's some final advice you'd like to share with our audience on breaking out of denial when our struggle has come into the light?

Yeah, I would say gently yet firmly, I would encourage the listener not to retreat, not to run back into the shadow. Brother, you got to walk in the light. That's where you will live and thrive. We're not created to live in the shadows. We won't thrive there. Hmm. We're called to reflect the light of Christ into this world. And that's, that's our potential. That is what the Lord has placed within us. And then if, if a person wants to become the person that God created him to be, learn to be comfortable in the light, being known and knowing others. And demonstrate courage. This, this is a courageous battle. It absolutely is. It's not for the timid. Demonstrate courage and conviction for what is right true and just, and learn to be known. Will feel super awkward at first. Learn to be known, be authentic. And what you're moving toward in those— taking those steps is you're moving toward peace and freedom and fulfillment, uh, what's— what your heart has desired all along.

Yeah, what comes to mind for me as we wrap up today is something a good friend of ours, Rodney Wright— I've heard him say a lot— is that humility looks good on everyone. And when you're breaking out of denial of the behaviors you've been stuck in, there needs to be this commitment to humility to just say, I don't know what I don't know. I can't see what I can't see. If I could have fixed this by myself, I would have. I need to trust God and others in this process because I've just seen, I think that may be a distinguishing marker between those who thrive thrive in recovery and make it for the long haul, restore marriages, live a new life, and those that flame out and end up back in more pain and more heartache and more addiction is humility. That those who come in with a level of pride of like, I got this, it's not that big a deal, I'll fix it in a few weeks, I'm a little bit above the process, I'm too good for— like, you can see it coming. It's like, I think this person sadly has more pain to go through before they're really going to own it. But when a guy or gal comes into a group of just like, I need help, I'll do whatever it takes. I'm here because I don't ever want to be here again. I'm listening, I'm open, I'm vulnerable. It's like, that's the best place you've ever been. Humility looks good on you, and humility is what will lead to your change. And so to break out of denial, it's partly just to continue to own, like, I'm in some denial and I'm probably not going to fully see the fog of how much denial I'm in. Until I walk in this for a while. And that's what humility does for us. And so if you can just stay in this place and we're with you, we know, we know it can be a hard place, but over time it will get better and the denial will lift, the fog will lift, and you'll see things in ways you never have before. But it will also take you to places you've never been before. And that's what our hope is. That's what our hope is for you, for every person that does a Pure Desire group that's listening to the podcast. It's that, that breaking through denial isn't just painful process for the pain of the process. It's because it leads us somewhere better. It leads to growth and change and recovery, and that's what we're here for. So, uh, Tyler, we appreciate you being a part of the conversation. We know that you are leading the way on our team of, of being that safe place where people can own their stuff, break through denial, and find recovery, both as an individual and a couple. So thanks for what you do at Pure Desire and for sharing your voice of wisdom with us today. Great, great Great to have you on.

Thanks so much, Nick. Thank you, Rich. It's a pleasure and a privilege. It truly is.

Yeah, it is. We, we appreciate getting to do this. And, and for you, our listeners, we want to let you know, if you are early in recovery, if this episode was shared with you because you're at the beginning of your journey, we would love for you to pick up a book that Pure Desire has called Hope, Healing, and Freedom. It really is our introduction book to healing and recovery, to understanding a pathway through pornography to getting beyond betrayal trauma. And we'd love to have you grab a copy. So this month during this series, it's available on our website 33% off, or for the retail price of just $12, you can grab that book and could really be a catalyst for your healing journey. So again, that book is called Hope, Healing, and Freedom, and you can find it on the Pure Desire website. And if you're a fan of this content, if today's show has meant something to you, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review. All of these are ways that more people will encounter this life-giving content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at PureDesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.