Navigating Triggers and Traumas After Year One w/ Jason and Shelley Martinkus | Ep. 460
In this episode of the Pure Desire Podcast, host Nick Stumbo and co‑host Rebecca Vandemeer sit down with longtime recovery partners Jason and Shelley Martinkus to explore how couples can navigate triggers, trauma, and relational betrayal after the first year of sexual addiction recovery. The conversation covers the mindset that triggers are healing opportunities, the lifelong nature of recovery, the importance of self‑compassion and grief work for the betrayed spouse, how fear—not logic—drives reactions, and practical strategies such as front‑loading conversations, naming triggers, and using support groups. The guests share personal anecdotes from their 20‑year journey, discuss the tension between sobriety milestones and lingering relational pain, and offer guidance for both partners when one feels stuck or when unexpected life events (e.g., holidays, new baby) reignite old triggers. Throughout, they emphasize a biblical, clinically‑informed approach that frames recovery as ongoing sanctification, encouraging couples to cultivate healthy selves, communicate needs, and view painful moments as opportunities for deeper intimacy.
Chapters
Seeing triggers as healing opportunities between a couple is the mindset to go with.
And I think there are a lot of men listening that maybe you should go get a Sharpie and just write that on your arm. Logic does not fix fear.
Those really messy, hard conversations are laying the framework, are laying the groundwork for the easier conversations that we have today.
She basically said, like, I'm not leading groups, I'm not walking with women, I, I need a break from church. I'm putting my Bible in my nightstand, and I just need a break from all of this.
Okay, look ahead. Like, ask those questions. What's going to be a threat? And then make a plan, discuss it with your spouse. And I, I think too, it's a good point to pull in what you had said earlier, that that might be about your sexual addiction recovery, or it might be about the relational recovery, that either one of those are really important to look what's coming up. How do we navigate it well? Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo. I'm Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically-based and clinically-informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. And whether today is your first day in recovery or your 10,000th, we hope that these are conversations that as you hear them will encourage you and give you direction in your journey. Today is episode 460, and here joining me as my co-host for this new series and a co-host for the first time is Rebecca Vandemeer. Rebecca, welcome to the podcast.
Hey, hey, thank you. It is lovely to be here, especially as a co-host. It's my first time, as you just shared, and so it's— I'm looking forward to being on the other side of—
Yeah, yeah, this is fun. We've had you on the podcast. You and your husband Bob are clinicians here at Pure Desire and help a lot of couples, and we're launching a series on, uh, couples recovery, you know, essentially looking at he might do his work, she does her work. We do a lot of that in groups alone. And then there's these question marks of like, how do we do this together? How do we navigate marriage? And it felt like because you do so much that with our clients, you'd be a great co-host to, to bring that perspective on how do we heal the marriage even if we've done some good work in healing ourselves.
Yeah, I love that. Um, especially as you mentioned, you know, a lot of the people doing groups or maybe even counseling like personally, individually, that's one part of recovery, right? But then there's that relational personal portion that for some people they either have questions and maybe they don't have the resources to do couples counseling, or maybe the partner is not in the recovery process as much as they are. And so I feel like this series is going to be so helpful to bring in those two sides of the coin of recovery, if you will, personal and relational.
And we started with some great guests, some first-time guests for the Pure Desire podcast, Jason and Shelly Martinkus. They're, they're authors of some well-known books, and they just brought us some really great perspective today on how we navigate those triggers of our trauma and our pain that happen in marriage. And, you know, what the betrayed feels, what the addict feels, and how do we work through that. And I felt like Jason and Shelly brought some really great perspective. So, uh, what can our listeners expect from this conversation?
My goodness, a lot of good practical and relatable content. A lot of the questions, a lot of the fears that a lot of us have gone through, you know, going through this process, we've had. And so having Jason and Shelly approach these in a very practical way, I think you can expect a lot of takeaways, a lot of things that you will be able to implement from the moment you listen this podcast on, and so enjoy.
Yeah, yeah, they've definitely lived it, you can tell, and they've really done excellent work in helping couples. So we're hearing from the right people here.
Yeah, they're pretty awesome.
A little bit more about them. Jason and Shelley Martinkus have been on their recovery journey since 2003 when their world was turned upside down by Jason's sexual addiction. By the grace of God, the support of caring men and women, and too much recovery work to list, their marriage not only survived, but now thrives, and they have the privilege of walking with other men, women, and couples around the world on a healing journey through coaching, support groups, workshops, a podcast, and writing. They've authored 5 books including Rescued: A Workbook for Wives and Worthy of Her Trust: A Guide to Relational Restoration. You can find more information on them at www.ri4women.com and www.redemptiveliving.com. And so here now is week 1 of 5 on couples Recovery with Jason and Shelly Martinkus on navigating triggers and traumas after year 1. Jason and Shelly Martinkus, welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, it's lovely to have you both.
Yeah, great to see you. We're excited about this conversation. We think it's vital for couples to, to navigate recovery well together, and that's kind of the purpose of this series. They've maybe done some good work individually and they're trying to figure out how do we figure out a new way of doing marriage after recovery. And so let's jump in on that. But as this is your first time on the podcast, would you tell our listeners in your own words a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Uh, okay, so the, the short story, um, is we've been at this for 20 years. 20, 22, a couple decades.
Um, a while.
And so my sexual addiction came to light 22 years ago and, and turned her world upside down. And then that started our healing process. And, and it was so wonky, so messy, in some ways, so good. And, and then today, you know, fast forward 22 years. You know, we have the privilege today of helping other people, being able to walk with other people on their journey, and, and we get to experience a really good marriage, depending on the day. And to your point with the, with the topic that we're talking about today, you know, we still deal with triggers. Like, they're, you know, two decades later, we're still walking through things. There's still healing to be had by processing through some of the stuff that went on through 3 decades ago. So, uh, it is not— we are no stranger to working through triggers.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's one of the things that we've really had to come to terms with is, and what I share with the women that I support, whether it's in groups or in one-to-one coaching, etc., is we're still on the journey. Like, the, the healing journey never ends. We might be a little further along But we're still on the journey as well. And I think there's a lot of pressure for couples to tie this up in 6 months and be done. And I, and, and I think that's a huge issue. I really want your listeners to maybe appreciate that this, this becomes lifelong work.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean it's all terrible. It's also not all Care Bears and rainbows. Simply, it's just part of our sanctification process and being committed to that.
Yeah. Well, and we completely affirm that, that it's a journey, not a destination. And, and I think when couples get stuck in that mindset of like, well, 6 months from now we'll be done, we'll put this behind us, we'll never talk about it again, that actually can keep them from doing some of the deep healing work that actually is so beneficial and fruitful to the health of the marriage long term.
Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's, it's— I love that you brought up triggers and that you are in this journey still. Um, even as we help others navigate their recovery process, we, those of us that have had that same journey, know, right? And we know that we're still going through it. Um, and with that said, um, a lot of people have gone through a, a recovery process, and maybe they're far into it, so to speak, but the spouse encounter the reality of continuing to have triggers around the addict or struggler's behavior. And so with that in mind, how can the betrayed spouse communicate these triggers in the best way?
Mm-hmm. I think first and foremost, oftentimes for, for the women I help— and I know there's also probably men listening to your show that are the spouse, if you will, the betrayed spouse. Um, first and foremost is being aware that it's a trigger. And that takes— because our prefrontal cortex pops offline whenever we're triggered, that can be really, really hard for us just to even have the awareness and to be able to name, oh, this is a trigger. And so first and foremost, for— and I know you were asking like, how can, um, and you might have to repeat your question to Rebecca, but how, how can I communicate to him like, oh, this is a trigger? I think really a lot of that initial work is more me figuring out what's a trigger and what's not a trigger. And even also asking, is this present pain? Because I think oftentimes we will name something a trigger and it's actually something that's happened in the present that's really painful. A trigger technically is a reminder of pain from the past. It's something happening in the present that reminds us of pain from the past. And yet sometimes it's, yes, it's a trigger, but it's also present pain. So I think first and foremost, I think, um, the, the betrayed spouse has to do a lot of work being aware, naming, and then also, um, her working on her nervous system and helping her nervous system calm down so she can say, oh, that was a trigger. But oftentimes it's post hoc, it's after the fact that she's going to realize that's a trigger. And actually, I think that's where the coupleship comes into play. I feel like for Jason and I, I think oftentimes Jason would recognize it was a trigger and be able to name that well before I could name it. Would you agree?
Which was sometimes helpful and sometimes not.
Totally. Because I mean, for if Jason's like, uh, babe, you're triggered, that doesn't necessarily feel very good either. Right. Okay. So it's, it's, it's a little tricky. And again, I don't know that I'm fully answering your question. I'm wanting to back up a little bit from your question and just name those couple of things first.
I think early on, let's say years 0 to 3, but especially year 1, I would— she's right, I would see that she's triggered, and a lot of times before she would realize it. But my calling attention to it was coming from a place of dismissiveness.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, you're just triggered. Okay. Yeah, I, you know, this will pass, you know, kind of calm down, sort of patronizing, just ugly, you know. And, and it wasn't until a little bit later, you know, after year one, honestly, before I started to realize, okay, triggers aren't something to tamp down. They're not something to kind of try to get through and minimize. There's something to actually step into because there's actually healing that can happen in those. Easier said than done, but that's what they are.
Yeah, I love that. I didn't— and Shelley, you did answer. I think it started with it. I think, and I agree, I think it also starts with that self, right? Like that self-awareness, that being present, regulating, and ideally then your partner, your spouse will meet you in that by partnering up with you in your healing process, not to fix you or not to be condescending, right? But to actually just walk alongside you. And that usually, you're right, doesn't happen at the beginning. It takes a little bit of time, which is why it's so important to focus on self to begin with so that we have something to bring into those conversations in the future.
Right, right.
I think, sorry, I think another thing in the beginning, well-meaning folks would try to help me in our process, by, by trying to coach me on how to contain her triggers. And even helping her to— helping her to— hey, you know, this language isn't going to be helpful. Hey, it's better if you do it this way. Hey, when the anger hits, calm down before you share, you know, all this kind of stuff. And, and in our process, I feel like the more I or other people tried to contain triggers, the more infuriating it was and the more it actually reverse effect amplified the trigger. I think there was something really profound somewhere in the beginning of our process. I couldn't put my finger on where, but there was something profound about coming to a place for myself with God going, okay, I don't have to contain her. I don't have to manage her emotions. I don't make sure that this goes well. She can emote, she can be, and I can somehow show up to be present in that.
Yeah.
And when I finally started, you know, when I finally got to a place of like, okay, let's not try to contain, I think things started to shift. Yeah.
Yeah, we want the trigger, if you will, to breathe a little bit. And I, I would, I I would prefer the betrayed spouse not feel pressure to have to communicate a certain way that, oh, I'm triggered, right? Messy. Um, and you know, really a trigger, it's a signal or sign that there's more healing, right? Shows us, it just kind of like exposes there's an area where there's more healing. And, and I think when we can reframe it that way instead of it being like the scary thing, or I think oftentimes again, in our situation, husbands, they kind of take it as an indictment, like, oh, she's triggered again, and oh my gosh, and they go to, you know, they can spiral into shame. If we can reframe it as, oh, this is where God is exposing this, this area where there's more healing. So let's, let's slow down. Let's sit with this. Let's unpack it together if we can. She's gonna unpack it on her own as well and with God. And that's what's going to help her continue to move forward.
Absolutely. Jason, I can really relate to what you said about wanting to contain her emotion. I know I felt a lot of that, like, whoa. And really for me, it was a lot of self-protection of the strength of her emotion would make me feel bad. And so like to try to contain it. And what I missed was how often it was communicating to her, it's not okay to feel that way or there's something wrong. And even though I wasn't using those words, that was the effect of my need to try to contain it was like, I'm not feeling heard or seen. And so my wife and I had to walk through that as well. And I also like what you said, Shelley, about that discernment of is this about past pain or is this current pain? Because that's the reality of marriage. Like, we still hurt one another. It's not always about the past. And I've seen couples make both mistakes that they feel like, well, this is, this is about the current moment. And really, if they analyze, like, no, actually, I'm— this has triggered my past pain. And just like you said, this is an opportunity to realize there's more healing to be done there. But there are other times I've observed where couples, it— they just assume that all pain is because, well, you hurt me 2 years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years. Like, they're just dragging that pain with them. But if they were honest, like, no, we really have dealt with that. This was just in that moment. The words you used made me— you use words that hurt me, and this is about the current moment. And so if, if we have had some healing, that, that grid can go away, that it doesn't have to always be about the past, because there are current things sometimes we need to deal with. And I, I think there's a lot of wisdom there. You guys already were getting into it a little bit, but let's look at the flip side for the struggler or the addict who often doesn't know how to react when their spouse is triggered because it brings up their pain of like, I've hurt you. And or that feeling of I thought we were past this. I've been doing so well. You know, I remember some of those in our marriage where I didn't look away from a suggestive scene in a movie because I, I did not feel triggered. And so I didn't look away, but my wife saw me not look away. And she was very triggered of like, and hurt by that. And I'm like, I'm doing so well, you know? So that did— that conversation did not go well for us. So give us some guidance on how the struggler or addicted spouse can receive maybe the pain or the trigger that they hear coming from their spouse.
Yeah. Qualified by easier said than done.
Amen.
Uh, so one of the things that was really helpful for me was coming to realize that, um, behind the trigger there is fear. The trigger— there is fear. Fear of being hurt again. Fear of being duped and feeling like the fool again. Feeling embarrassed again. Feeling cheated on again. Feeling me for the wife. Yes, that trigger behind that is, is she's scared. That scared may come across in loud expletives, okay? But what's behind that is fear. She's really scared that her life is never going to be the same. She's going to lose more of her dignity, you know, etc., etc. And so, um, so for me, realizing, okay, what's behind that is fear. And we know from a neuroanatomical standpoint that logic doesn't fix fear. Logic doesn't fix it. And so many of us as husbands, and me too, it's, it's like, I just want to tell you the logic to make your, your trigger stop or, or calm that fear. And what we know biblically and, and experientially is that what helps fear is love, not logic. And so when we can kind of reframe what we're hearing, again, might be might not sound like fear, but if we can hear through that and, and get to the fear, normally what that'll activate in us as husbands is the love, because we do love our wives. We do want to help them heal. We do care. We do want to offer empathy. And so sometimes we got to listen differently to get to— right. So that's kind of one thing is just recognizing, okay, what's really behind that? Second thing for me, and I tried to teach some of the guys in our office this, as we're going through the process, you know, somewhere in, in like early year 2 for me, I realized that this isn't only about how we heal our marriage, that God is trying to do something in me. Right? And, and I was kind of slow on the uptake with that. Um, but once I internalized that, once I kind of got like, God wants to do something in your character, God wants to do something in my heart, um, I sort of realized that these situations are all under that banner. So a really hard conversation at 2 o'clock in the morning that might have some screaming and yelling, potentially a pencil thrown, whatever. That's actually my healing opportunity. Not just I need to show up for her. You follow what I'm saying there?
Yeah, absolutely.
When I embraced that, then it became something different than, uh-oh, here we go again. It became something different than, okay, she needs me to. It actually turned into I need to. And that shifted things as well. You want to say anything about that?
No.
Okay.
And so let me fast forward, you know, a couple decades later. Um, these days I would say that I can't even think of the last time you— and correct me here— I can't even think of the last time that we walked away from a triggering conversation. Maybe you did and I didn't know it. Um, that it wasn't healing, that it wasn't actually somehow sweet on the other side, that there wasn't something really good between us that came from it.
Yeah.
Me too.
No, I agree. I agree.
Yeah.
I also— yeah, no, I agree.
And so the reason that I, the reason that I put that in there is because so much of it early on feels like it's just pain upon pain and it's never us anywhere.
Yeah.
And, and I want people to know, like, no, long term, there are still triggers, but they are way more healing than hurtful.
Yeah. Yeah. And I, I could see also, um, maybe even this showing up as their sobriety obtained and maintained, uh, from the addict or struggler's, you know, side of things. Um, and for a lot of people, for a lot of couples, it feels like it's a long process, right? But then when the addict or the struggler gets to that part of, oh my goodness, I have sobriety, and it's probably the longest I've ever had in my life. And there's this excitement and, and joy, but also a little bit of that, oh, my spouse is not that excited or supportive, uh, in that sobriety with me. Um, when this happens, um, how can the addict or struggler keep the right perspective, uh, and not pressure their spouse into either get, get over it or trying to talk her into what he sees, right, in his joy. What are your thoughts on that?
Well, I, I know she's asking you, but I want to jump in. Yeah, a couple of things. I first, I just want to say one thing about the last question. Yeah, I can. And it's that I think that there's also a bit of a reframe for couples to that really the messy middle part of recovery and also early recovery. So those first not just the first year, but I'm talking the first 5 to 10 years, really, there, those really messy, hard conversations are laying the framework, are laying the groundwork for the easier conversations that we have today.
Yeah.
So I think if couples can really get behind that and that's just, that's just what I was wanting to comment on. If couples can get behind that and just know it does get better, but we have to have the messy conversations first.
Yeah.
And, and, and then we learn the tools, we learn the skills in order to have more fluid conversation later.
Yeah.
As far as Rebecca, your question that you just asked, like when, you know, you're excited and, and like, yes, I found freedom. And sometimes we call this leaving her behind. Like there's just, it almost feels like he's like, yeah, I'm great. I'm good to go. I've done this. And she's back here circling the drain deep in grief, and there's such a disparity there. It can be a huge concern. I feel like oftentimes— and again, I know we're talking about really more like after 6 months or a year after year 1, um, I think oftentimes we see that more in years like 3, 4, 5, 6 where, where he starts to feel a little bit more freedom. Um, and, and I think it can be very— I want, obviously, the questions more so for you, but I think it can, it can be very scary. Yeah. Or the betrayed spouse, because it, it can insinuate, I should be healed, right?
Right.
I should be okay now. Um, so I think it deserves a conversation and multiple conversations. But what are your—
well, and the, the really painful, um, unintended consequence of that disparity when he's kind of been the championing the cause and I'm in a better place and she's kind of behind is that the outside world starts to look at her as the problem, right? This— the sponsor, the small group leader, the pastor, the counselor, the coach starts to go, gosh, he's doing great. And so What's wrong with you that you can't be on board with him doing great? You can't catch up. And really like add insult to injury situation, right?
Yeah.
Oh yeah. And you know, it's interesting. I totally agree with, with that. And I can see that for a lot of the couples even that I personally have worked with, um, acknowledging both realities feels untrue or unfair to do at the same time, right? Like to, to be able to communicate, I am not at a place to celebrate your sobriety or your recovery. I'm still trying to figure out my side of things. Uh, but how do I do that in a way that still feels true to me and true to you as well? And so those two are not mutually exclusive, right? It's to be able to say, hey, like, way to go. I see and celebrate the good that is happening in you while I also acknowledge there's a lot more work to be done. And I'm still very very much in my, you know, in my trauma healing process. And so, yeah, to be able to say, hey, it's both, it's not one or the other.
My accountability guys, so these guys, James, Kurt, and Kurt, that walked with me through the very early days. I show up to, you know, I show up to the accountability group one morning and I'm going, you guys, this is so hard. I'm doing better and I'm doing good and I can see change and you guys see change. But she can't see change and she won't acknowledge change. And I'm going, you know, come on, what's the deal? Throw me a bone here kind of thing. And, and those guys reminded me like, hey, we can celebrate with you that you're doing better and you're not living the life you were living at this point, but you can't expect her to celebrate that you're now doing what you committed to do when you said you're out.
Yeah. Isn't this how it should have always been? I thought this was the standard.
Exactly right. And so I appreciated so much those guys, you know, they could come alongside me, but to expect her to come alongside me in that was just completely unrealistic and I think self-centered of me.
Yeah.
Um, and then, and then fast forward a little bit, um, back to this idea of, uh, this is, this is something that God is trying to do in us, but also in my character. Um, and, and the way we talk about it here is like recovery is just another word for sanctification.
Yes. Love that.
You say it's just another word for sanctification. So if I'm in this sanctification process, part of what I'm learning to do is, is love her well, especially in light of how poorly I have loved her in my addiction, in our early relationship, right? So in recovery, if I'm learning to love her well, Part of what that meant for me is not putting an expectation on her of where she should or shouldn't be. Yeah, there was, um, so I'm going to jump ahead a little bit in a story. So fast forward, we're, you know, 4 years later in our process, and we, we've like helped some people and we're walking with people, and I feel called to ministry. And so we move and I go to seminary, and she's, she's helping wives, and she's leading a support group. And then what we didn't know at that time is like the dust had settled, you know, all the pain and the, the crisis, and we had stabilized, but we weren't really back to connected. Yeah, we were learning intimacy and connection, but we weren't really where we thought we were. And there came this point for Shelly where she was like Tap the brakes, I'm out. I don't want to be the poster child for this. I— you and I disagree on how the— how that went exactly, but, um, she, she basically said like, I'm not leading groups, I'm not walking with women, I, I need a break from church. I'm putting my, my Bible in my nightstand and I, I just need a break from all of this. And, and you said at that time like, I just need like a couple months off. From all of this. And that couple months turned into 3 years. 3 years. And there was a 3-year stint where if anybody, you know, on the outside looked in, they'd have gone like, oh gosh, he's like championing the cause, he's in school to be a counselor, he's done it, and she's kind of stuck back there. And that's not at all what the truth was.
Absolutely.
The truth was there was just new grief. There was just new healing. There was just new layers. Sometimes you can't get to things until you get to them.
Yeah.
And 4 years in, what, you know, on the outside would have looked like, uh-oh, was actually just another layer.
Yeah.
Well, it was just too fast for me. Yeah. And I think I— while Jason had done really great work I also, I just, I needed to see long-term, like, okay, where are we going long-term? And I also just had more work that I needed to do. Yeah, I could really be right there with him. And I also just wanted to say, you know, I think, I think the betrayed spouse, we, we pressure ourselves enough to get to the other side. The last thing we need are other people. I mean, if anyone wants to get to the other side, it's us. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And so the last thing we need is to feel that pressure. At the same time, when he does start to inch toward freedom and he's like, "Whoa, okay, I'm starting to get this," I will say, even though between you and I, I was kind of like, "Hold your horses, you're getting way too far ahead of yourself here." At the same time, I was still watching. Out of the corner of my eye or the back of my head, it was still making these small deposits in my heart.
That's right.
I don't want the addict to feel like, oh great, like, all right, well, I guess I shouldn't be excited about this. No, no, no, that's not the case. And actually her— and again, I'm sorry, in our case we work with, you know, the men, right? So I keep using those pronouns, but for the, for the betrayed spouse, that can still, like, there's little deposits of hope that are, that are happening there. It's just important that he doesn't, or the, the addict doesn't insist, no, no, we got to keep moving forward.
Yeah, yeah, that's so good. I think one of the statements I learned early on was this idea that the person you hurt is probably not the person to affirm you because they're the person you hurt. And, and kind of releasing my wife from that and finding like, you know what, my, my group or my counselor or my friends, like there are others. If I need affirmed, if I need someone to go high five, let's grab a drink, you're doing awesome, like it probably wouldn't be my wife, at least in those early stages. And there are definitely times, you know, you said it, it can get better and it will get better. Don't grow weary, don't get discouraged. And there are times now like like my wife will say something in a conversation or publicly that I'm like, that's so amazing she thinks that about me. But in the first couple years, she did not say those things, and that's okay. You know, one of her statements to me was, I couldn't see what you were doing when you did it, and now I can't see what you're not doing now that you're not doing it. And it was like this moment of, oh yeah, these are secrets, and I can see the secret things I'm no longer doing, but it's all secret to you. She's like, but it doesn't look different, and it feels the same. I'm still stuck in that pain. I was like, okay, that helped me to think about this is going to be a longer process than I thought. And I wish, you said something earlier, Jason, I wanted to go back to. I wish I would've tattooed on my forearm, logic does not fix fear. And I think there are a lot of men listening that maybe you should go get a Sharpie and just write that on your arm. Logic does not fix fear. 'Cause that was so me of like, like, you know, the illustration I talked about where I didn't glance away from a movie scene fast enough. I immediately went to logic, like, that is so different. I mean, there wasn't even nudity, and I wasn't even— that's— I'm not even attracted, and, and I've changed so much. And I was talking through giving her all the logical reasons why this was different so she shouldn't be hurt. And it— yeah, it's like, it's like you're speaking Spanish and they're speaking, you know, Swahili, or just totally different, like The two things did not connect. In fact, my logic was making it worse because what it communicated was, "I don't see you. I don't validate your pain. I don't care that you feel triggered and you're wrong to feel that way." And of course, I didn't say those words. At least I'm smart enough to not say that. But that's the impact it had on her emotionally. And I think if we can come to that place of going, "Okay, there's a different way of receiving this and a different way of communicating it," that, as you guys said, can lead to us walking away going, wow, I learned something. I was reminded how important my sobriety is. I was reminded how much my little actions communicate value or disrespect to her, and that was helpful to me. And she was able to express where she still has fear and why. And if I'm open to that, those are always redemptive conversations. But if I just go to the logic route, we end up walking away like like, he doesn't get me, she doesn't get me. And, and that is where a lot of couples, I think, get stuck in this part, in this what you call the messy middle. I love that.
I want to speak to something else that's kind of bigger picture, kind of 30,000 feet, that, that applies to this. Um, you know, when we— when, when there's, there's D-Day and the moka hits the fan, there's really two betrayals, right? There's, there's sexual betrayal But then there's also relational betrayal. The, the, I didn't trust you with all of me, right? I, I lied to you, I manipulated you, I— all of that stuff, right? And so what happens for so many guys, and you guys, I mean, you all know this, Preacher of the Choir, what happens for so many guys is it's like established sobriety, let's call that 6 months or a year, established sobriety actually does healing on sexual betrayal, but what remains and what really the long tail of recovery is, right, emotional betrayal.
Oh, that's right.
And so it's, it's that really tender, delicate place to be able to go, just because I've not acted out in X amount of time, which is good, doesn't mean that I've done healing on all the manipulation that I on all the acting in and intimacy aversion and the light, right? And so here again, this kind of idea of, of she's back here and he's up here type of thing. Oftentimes the she's back here is really related to the relational betrayal. And there's, that's an indicator that there's more work for him to do qualitatively around the relational betrayal.
Uh, Shelley, you started to get into this, and I think it's important we circle back that a betrayed spouse doesn't want to stay stuck. Like, this isn't their life goal of, I want to be stuck in pain in my marriage for the rest of my life. Like, no one wants that. They don't want to get triggered by, by little things, a scene in a movie, and not feeling like their husband glanced away quickly. Um, so even if they can see that their spouse is doing well, because obviously that's a different category, probably for a different podcast, like if the spouse isn't doing well and continues in relapse, like, yeah, you're going to continue in pain and trauma and triggers. But in this scenario, we're thinking more of the, the, the struggling spouse is— they're really doing good work and there is some progress happening, but they're feeling a lot of the pain and triggers. How can that betrayed spouse learn to be kind and patient with themselves and let healing happen at the pace it's going to happen?
Million-dollar question right there. I do think, you know, uh, So many things, but self-compassion is so critical. And when we are— when, when we're not self-compassionate, it actually puts our nervous system in a survival state. I think that's kind of like foundational is really working. I work with my gals on being self— really working on self-compassion. It's going to help her nervous system calm down, help her stay in her window of tolerance where she functions well. And then I think just there's so much grief work. And grief work, in some ways, it can feel elusive. It's a little more abstract.
Yeah, it's like, what do you— can't even get your hands around what is this grief work.
Yeah. And so doing the grief grief work. Uh, and, and again, like, that's a whole other episode that we would need to unpack. I also, you know, trauma— the hallmarks of trauma are isolation and disempowerment. And so for women, or the, the betrayed spouse, to keep coming back to, where can I find agency? Yeah, where, where do I have some control now? And Jason likes to joke that I'm a control enthusiast, and I will That was a while back. I, I'm all about that. I'm all about that. Um, but I don't mean like overly controlling, but rather just finding agency in this process and then also moving from isolation to connection and community. And so I think that's where support groups really come into play, and long-term support groups, as long as they're safe and they're healthy I think that can also really help, um, help her pace herself and see like, oh, I can't get to the other side of this in 6 months. This is life work.
I—
and, and we're going to be at this for years, not months. Those are my first blush thoughts.
Yeah. And I think it's important just for guys to remember again, in that dynamic where, uh, and, and this is important for me too, is just remembering that, you know, she's not holding on to things. Things are holding on to her.
Yeah, such a good perspective.
No, she's not, she's not trying to hold it. Nobody wants— like you said, nobody wants to be past this more than you do. Yeah, nobody wants to not be triggered in the day more than you do. And so she's not holding on to it. A lot of husbands feel that way. You know, she's, she's kind of like looking for reasons to be mad. She's not. She's just, she's just grieving.
Which then can, can totally— I can see this also working in favor for the couple, but also in disadvantage where maybe one or the other is feeling like it's taking too long or the other person is really not making the progress or the healing that they would like to see, which then for some people, you know, getting discouraged, uh, means they just, just give up in the process and, you know, or, or in their healing work or just, you know, just get so discouraged that they just don't, uh, continue on their, on their healing. And so, which then that means that leaves then the other person in a sort of a one-sided healing, so to speak. Um, when that happens, how would you guys encourage that one spouse that it's sort of in this one-sided healing, um, and their spouse has given up or just not interested?
Yeah, I mean, you go.
Well, I think the answer is, is going to be really different for each of us. So I'll speak to the betrayed spouse. Um, we see this a lot. I mean, there's— I kind of— there's three categories. Either the addict is hitting it out of the park, doing really great recovery work, um, or he— well, the, the addict is like, eh, you know, nope, not interested in this, no thank you. But most addicts are somewhere in the middle.
They're kind of in that great messy middle.
Yeah, back to the messy middle. And what I, I call this sitting on the fence. He's sitting on the fence. There's times when it's like, oh, okay. Yeah, I feel a little safer. I think he, he, he feel he's holding my heart. And then there's times where it feels like he has just, he's off the rails, off the rails. And so what I work with, one is we want to name that. I'm a big fan, obviously, of naming things because that's going to help give us some agency and authority, if you will, over it. If, if the addict is sitting on the fence for a long period of time, Um, I work with the betrayed spouse on pushing him off the fence. I think there's some things that we can do to push him off the fence and really see which way he lands. Where is he going to land? We can't choose that. We can't change him. We can't change the addict. Um, but I do think that there are some things we can do to to push him off the fence. I think also for those in the category where he's just like not doing the work, I think then again, in my case, she has to figure out, does she want to stay in that relationship and what does it look like to stay well? Mm-hmm. Or is it time to exit the relationship? So again, I think it depends on which category. Is he on the fence? Is he completely off the rail?
Completely.
And then taking some next steps and continuing to just reassess, um, okay, what, what do I want to do given what's happening in the relationship? I will tell you again, in my case, most women, they will roll out the red carpet for him. They will wait. They do not want the relationship to end. They— most of the women we, we work with, they are willing to be very patient and, and wait for him to get it. Yes. And, and maybe that's also part of the question, you know, how do I encourage that spouse? Hey, that's okay too. It's okay for you to wait. We want to continue to reassess because— reassess— we know that, um, what's the verse? Hope deferred Mm-hmm.
I don't remember.
Makes the heart sick.
Um, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.
There you go. Yes. And so we, we do want to continue to reassess because at some point, if we are, if we're holding onto false hope, it is going to make us sick.
Yeah.
So that's a complex situation. What would you say?
Absolutely.
Uh, I think something that is a, an important, just again, 30,000-foot thing, and then we'll talk practical. Is so often what we, what we experience, what we see people experience, is recovery isn't— uh, recovery is like stair steps. You, you, you make some progress, and then, and then you kind of like— the cement has to dry, and then you make some pro— and then you hit a wall, and then you make some progress, and then, you know, the process almost kind of breathes as you go through it. And, and that's hard to conceptualize because as you go farther and farther in recovery, the flat line gets longer and longer, and it can start to feel like, yeah, we're just stuck. Nothing— there's no new revelation, no new insight. We've read the books, we've done the count, you know, and it starts to feel hard in that space. And so conceptually, just helping people remember Oftentimes what's happening in there is the cement is drying. Foundational things in y'all's relationship are starting to concretize that will get you to the next level, right? So conceptually, back down to practical, I go back to what I said a while ago as I'm speaking to husbands in this case. As a husband, uh, I'm, I'm from here on out My job is to create the safest container I can for her to be the most whole person she can be. And so if that's my call, that means I've got to continue to work to get healthy. I've got to continue to learn more about her and what it means for her to be healthy. I'm going to continue to learn more about her from an intimate standpoint about her needs and longing and want and pain. And, and so if that's my call and then that's my work, then I'm never stuck.
Yes, yes.
There's never not something for me to be working on in this.
Yes, that personal self-focused healing and growth.
Well, us-focused healing.
Yes.
Yeah, right.
That it's, it's— yes, there's that personal character work, but it's also that how do I hold space well in the 3 years where she's put her Bible in the nightstand How do I hold space well when we're on the backside of a breakdown and I come home and all the lights shut off? Right? How do I hold space well? It's symbiotic, right? It's my personal character work on our relational work. But there's never a point where the idea is, well, I'm stuck and so I'm just waiting.
Right.
Right.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too, Rebecca, because I know you and Bob work with a lot of couples and inevitably there's going to be somewhere he— and, you know, not to use a gender specifically, but more often than not, it's he's the struggler addict, she's the betrayed. What have you encouraged that betrayed spouse with when it's evident he's not doing the work he needs to or he's kind of just gotten apathetic or given up? Yeah. How do you encourage that spouse to keep working through their pain?
Yeah.
When it's not a partnership?
Absolutely. And I think I would piggyback on, on Shelley, what you were sharing, right? Um, that self-focus, which I also just shared, right? Like, just focus on yourself. What can you do? What are— that's what you can control in this moment is what you can do in your own healing and your own growth. Uh, granted, that is, you know, that transfers over to the relationship and that dynamic. But when it comes down to it, as long as you are focused on your healing, your growth, uh, you're regulating your, your nervous system and gaining new tools to effectively navigate all these fears that are coming, coming at you, then the bigger your window of tolerance is and the more, uh, clear, educated decisions you can make when you are reassessing, uh, where you're at in the relationship. And if you need to do something else than what you're doing. And, um, and even in communicating where you're at or your fears with your spouse that may be stuck, um, by you doing that self-focus, you're going to be able to communicate more effectively and more compassionate and graciously so that hopefully he receives it well. But then again, that's on him, right? You can't control that.
Well, I, I think that's one of our big messages at Pure Desire, that the greatest gift we give to others is a healthy, growing self.
Oh my gosh.
And that idea can be liberating in a marriage for someone to realize I can become healthy even if you don't, that you're gonna make your choices. And that means even, you know, God forbid, if that marriage ends, the greatest future for you is a healthy self that you could bring to your family or friends or a future marriage. And I always say too, the greatest likelihood of that marriage making it is you bringing a healthy self. And that actually without controlling the other person will have the greatest influence on them is your own evolving self into greater health and freedom. Like, they're going to either get on board and go like, wow, I'm missing something and I want to be a part of this, or it will naturally create the clarity of we're not going to go in the same direction here. So I, I think that freedom of I can be healthy even if they don't is, is really a focal point that in some ways, if you're not familiar with thinking that way, can almost feel like a kind of betrayal to the marriage of like, I'm leaving you behind. No, no, you're doing the best thing you can for the good of the marriage is your health. And so we'd, yeah, encourage that. Even if you're joining group alone, or you're doing counseling alone, or you're reading the book alone, you're listening to this podcast and he refuses, this is good for you. And if it's good for you, it's the best thing you can take to other people. Uh, Jason and Shelley, another kind of angle of this, you know, couples do good work, they're, you know, talking through triggers, and then something new happens. Maybe it's the first time they've seen the in-laws in their recovery journey, or maybe it's a new job, a move of cities, maybe it's having a baby, and suddenly old triggers, uh, that we thought we had dealt with are suddenly back with new power. How do you encourage couples to handle those unexpected triggers in new situations?
I actually think you gave me a look of like, uh-oh. You know what, I think this is a little more straightforward than, than we expect it to be. I think the key, like, because we are aware of at least those scenarios, like, okay, we're gonna go spend Christmas with the— or a holiday with the in-laws, or the new baby is coming, anything new on the horizon, number one is to be aware of that, and then number two, we we call it front-loading.
Yeah.
So for them to have preemptive conversations about what's going— what's about to happen and to devise a plan together as to how we're going to handle it, to go into the situation knowing, okay, this is probably going to be a little bit triggering for me.
Yeah.
So let's, let's proactively piece together what are we going to do while we're there, and then we simply— maybe it's not that simple— but implement that when we're together. So it's really more having an expectation in new situations. There probably will be some triggers.
Yeah, I think for husbands, especially early in the process, that idea that the firsts are the worst— the first time you see the in-law, the first time you go to the kids' basketball game, the the first time, you know, the first seemed to be worth the first anniversary of D-Day, you know, whatever it is, right?
Yeah.
So we as husbands, there's no reason. Some of those things, there's no reason for us to walk in surprised, right? To be caught off guard.
Yeah.
When we can anticipate a lot of those things and get out in front of it with a conversation about how do we need this to go? How do we want this to go? How do we need this to look? So that front-loading thing, I think, is a really really important piece. Um, the other thing I'll say is, and I'm speaking again from a husband's perspective here, the, um, setting our mind at, uh, no formula or expectation when there is a surprise.
Way to go.
Yeah, a lot of times we walk into those situations and we kind of have, uh, we have a preconceived notion whether it's conscious or unconscious, of, okay, how's this going to look? And she's not going to raise her voice in the restaurant, right? And, you know, this kind of stuff, as opposed to determining within ourselves, hey, this, this is going to go how it's going to go, and I'm going to show up the best I can show up. And I'm not— back to— I'm not going to try to contain it. I'm going to try to roll with it. Somehow the Holy Spirit and my spirit will interact, and I'm going to try to show up the best that I can in this. In whatever way she needs.
Yeah, I love that. With scenarios that are a given, right, such as visiting in-laws or baby, those are somehow what we call— I like to call predictable scenarios, which is kind of like you're front-loading, right, in a sense of, okay, we know that this is going to bring some external stress. These are factors that will be challenging or unknown to us. And so how do we communicate Let's come up with a plan so that we can navigate this together as a team, right? And that gives me personally the opportunity to ask myself, what am I going to need in those moments to help myself feel regulated, seen, heard, right? And then vice versa. But then also with those other scenarios that are surprise, surprise, right? They're not predictable. But then to also have that mindset of, okay, if and when this happens, I will be okay. And what can I do in those moments? Maybe I don't know what's going to happen. Maybe I don't know how I'm going to feel or react or respond, but I can go to these other options in those moments. And then that gives the couple that opportunity to then lean into each other. It's like, oh my goodness, I just feel this way or that way, would you please, you know, give me a hug, or whatever that may be. And so then that just pulls you in, as opposed to the other way around, which is the case for a lot of people.
Yeah. And I think it's one of the values of being in a weekly group like a Pure Desire group is that question we ask at the end of every group. What is your commitment to change? And that commitment to change to be rooted around what is the greatest threat to your sobriety this week? And you mentioned it, Jason, like the thought that we should be unprepared is really an old way of thinking. It's an addict way of thinking of like, oh my gosh, I'm on a trip and I'm in a hotel room alone. I'd never thought about I might face temptations. Like, you could see that coming a mile away. Or, oh my goodness, We're at my in-laws and they're fighting and, and I feel triggered. I couldn't see that. Kind of like, yeah, Dave Ramsey has that joke too about finances, like, I can't believe Christmas is on December 25th this year and we didn't plan for the gifts. Like, okay, look ahead, like, ask those questions. What's going to be a threat? And then make a plan, discuss it with your spouse. And I, I think too, it's a good point to pull in what you had said earlier, that that might be about your sexual addiction recovery, or it might be about the relational recovery, that either one of those are really important to look what's coming up, how do we navigate it well, because the idea that we're just going to be totally off guard— I mean, granted, you could maybe get like into a car accident. You can't anticipate you got into an accident and that triggers fear. And so there, there could be something unexpected, but the vast majority of situations, uh, if you're willing to look ahead and make a plan, you can see it coming and you can, you can live differently, which then becomes that building block of recovery that a couple they get through a Christmas and there's not a blowup or there's not a relapse, and they're like, oh, that felt a lot better. Like, we're doing it, we're making progress. So looking ahead and having a plan can be a significant part of your growth.
It also— the mindset creates a dynamic for— I am speaking for myself here and, and kind of men in the process— it creates a dynamic where if her needs change, I don't have to fight it. Because she doesn't know. She may think she knows what she needs going into meeting the in-laws for the first time or seeing the in-laws for the first time, but then 90 minutes into that visit, her needs change. And if I'm stuck in, okay, well, we're working the plan, and then her needs change, now I'm going to get defensive and bristle and all the stuff, and now I'm making the situation worse. Um, Exhibit A on that in our story We had one night where we were at the in-laws, my folks, and at 2 o'clock in the morning, Shelley woke up and elbowed me and she went, "I don't feel right. I don't feel okay. I want out. I want us to leave." And I'm going, "It's too— we can't really. I don't— that's weird. I don't—" "No, pack it up. Let's go." And we drove out at 2 o'clock in the morning. And it was one of those moments where We were okay the night before. It seemed like we were okay the night before, but 2 o'clock in the morning, her needs changed. And it wasn't just seamless, like we had a conversation about it laying in bed that night, but ultimately that's what she needed to feel safe, was to leave. Doesn't matter what time it is, doesn't matter what the awkward conversation the next morning is. That's what she needed at that point. And if I had been locked into, no, we're here for the holiday, we're here for the and not already kind of in the mindset of it's okay for things to change, okay for her needs to change, it will be a fight.
Yeah. Well, Jason and Shelly, this has been an amazing conversation with so many nuggets that I hope listeners were jotting down notes or making little voice memos. Uh, but as we wrap up, any final advice or thoughts you'd like to leave our audience with on how to navigate triggers well as repairing their marriage.
Any final word?
I'm gonna let you go.
You're the expert on all the things you could say.
Um, I, I'm—
I'll say this, uh, seeing triggers and the healing as healing opportunities between a couple is the mindset to go with. I think too often we look at that as this dangerous and kind of dark part of the process. Us. And I think in many ways God just wants that to be a place where light gets shined. There's so much healing to be had there. Beautiful. We don't have to be afraid of it.
Yeah, I would say— oh gosh, I don't know. I, I don't know that I have any good words, but, um, I think it needs— Rebecca, you mentioned needs. Jason, you just did as well. And I think that that is so core whenever the betrayed spouse is navigating through a trigger is to come back to, what do I need? And can I get— can I meet that need? Can God meet that need? Do I need to pull in other people to get that need met? And sometimes we have to sit in pain with unmet needs. We don't always get every single— yeah, and there's character growth for us in that as well. And so I think, you know, I just— I do want to pull that in. I think I think that's so important for the betrayed spouse listening to cut when they're triggered, to come back to what do I need? How can I, how can I take good care of myself? How can I securely attach to myself? How can I love myself well? And that's going to help him or her move through the trigger versus skipping over it.
Yes. Beautiful. Thank you, guys. That was beautifully said.
Any final thoughts for you, Rebecca?
Continue leaning into the discomfort of life, uh, whether it's, you know, sexual betrayal, relational betrayal, uh, or it all— it brings us to— it brings to light our own areas that need work and healing. And so just lean into that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking about that idea that you are digging the foundation for a deeper, better marriage and And if you were excavating ground and you ran into, you know, a huge limestone rock 12 feet under the surface, you wouldn't get discouraged like, oh my gosh, why is there rock down here? We already dug the rock out at the surface. Like, well, we're going deeper and we're going to probably find some new stuff. And like you said, Jason, that's maybe not a sign of a setback. That's a sign of progress. And as we face that thing and work through it, we get deeper and the foundation of our marriage gets stronger. And these triggers can be that opportunity. Tell our listeners, Jason, Shelly, how could they track with you, find you, learn more about what you're doing if they'd like to connect with you guys?
Yeah, I try to be active on Instagram. I'm @shelly_martinkus and then rl4women.com as well as redemptiveliving.com. I don't do Instagram. No, he doesn't do social media, but He— you can find us on the web, YouTube, Instagram, and we'd love to connect.
Awesome. Well, we will make sure to put those links in the show notes. And this has been an awesome conversation. Uh, as we wrap up, Jason and Shelly have reminded us that healing and recovery is an ongoing, often nonlinear journey for both the betrayed spouse and the recovering partner. Triggers will arise, perspectives may differ, and progress can feel uneven, but patience, empathy, and clear communication are essential. And those triggers can become the building blocks for a stronger marriage. So Jason and Shelley, thanks for joining us today. It's, it's been a pleasure to have you on.
Thanks for having us.
Appreciate it. And if you're a fan of today's content, please subscribe, write us a review, share it with somebody, hit that like button. All of those are ways that more people could find this life-giving content. And if you want For information about Pure Desire groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at PureDesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.
