Parenting Kids During Recovery w/ Rodney & Traci Wright | Ep 448

I mean, in the midst of it, it can seem kind of scary, but helping your kids to put language to emotion, even at those younger ages, is so important.

Yeah, it is a roller coaster, but I think there's something just about, um, not falling apart in front of the kids. Maybe it's things, but like Tracy said, having a shelf for them, or it's okay to see us cry or have uncertainty. And not of us, not a lot of us were raised in homes where that was really modeled for us. So like, we get to kind of model that now where it's okay not to be okay.

No, it's it's not too late because they grew up in your home and they probably still, even if they're not asking them out loud, they subconsciously have all these questions about the home they grew up in, the, the things they were led to believe about themselves or their value or their worth. And, and they have some pieces of the puzzle that are completely missing if they don't know your story. Hello, hello there, good listener. I am your host Nick Stumbo and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal betrayal trauma, and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. And whether today is your first day of recovery or your 10,000th, we hope that you're able to hear conversations here that maybe you've never been able to have before. I'm excited to be joined today by my co-host throughout this series, the one and only Heather Kolb. Heather, welcome back. Good to see you.

Thank you. It's nice to be back. It's been a while.

Yes, it has. In the, in the magic world of recording, you know, this just seems like it's been a week since you and I talked, but we haven't done a podcast in quite a while. And as, in terms of guest schedules, we don't always record them in order. So for us, this is the first part of the series, but it's actually part 3. How have you been? How's life treating you these days?

Life is good. It's slowing down a little bit, which is always kind of nice, but yeah, good. Kids are good. Grandkids are good.

You are in a fun season. The stories I hear with your kids and grandkids, it's awesome. And it's pertinent to what we're talking about today because we interviewed two of our friends here at the ministry, Rodney and Tracey Wright, who wrote the book "How to Talk with Your Kids About Sex." And today we wanted to dive in with them of how do you do recovery when you have kids? And they offered a lot of insights today. So tell our listeners a bit about what they're about to experience.

Yeah, Rodney and Tracey are so great because they just have this really honest, open presence about them. And they have lived this recovery journey when their kids were little, and they continue to live it with, you know, Tracy with her clients, Rodney with churches where he goes to speak, with his— with their own kids, with their own grandkids. And just the way that they talk about things, not ever in a shaming way, but just to say, these are the things that we tried to do, this went really well, this didn't go very well. It's it's so refreshing to hear them, and then it's always wrapped in such sensitivity and compassion and care for people who are on their recovery journey.

Yeah, yeah. They've lived it and they've been able to help others much like you have in your own story. And I think that's a lot of what we got to share today. And it's a conversation that isn't being had enough of. It's complex. I mean, healing and recovery is complicated to begin with. And then throw kids into the mix. And it's like, you know, I think of the Christian, not Christian, the comedian who talks about, you know, he said having 4 kids is like you're drowning, you're treading water and someone throws you a baby. Like, oh great. People maybe feel that like recovery with kids, how do you do that? And I think today you're gonna get a lot of just real practical advice and thoughts that will help you. And if you're someone listening that doesn't have kids, I think you should still listen to this episode because you're gonna learn a lot about recovery in general about being gracious with yourself and about what it means to be vulnerable in the midst of some real challenging situations. So don't tune out just because you don't have kids, or if your kids are out of the home, there's a lot of advice here too about how you could help in your story communicate with your adult children. So definitely a bit more about Rodney and Tracey. They are both on staff with us here at Pure Desire. Rodney served in pastoral ministry for decades, now works directly with donors raising funds and advancing the mission and vision of Pure Desire. And Tracey worked many years in human health and human services and has now for many years been a clinician on the Pure Desire counseling team. And together they authored the book, as we've talked about already, How to Talk with Your Kids About Sex, and are featured speakers on the Pure Desire parent training course. And so without further ado, here are Rodney and Tracey Wright and our conversation with them about parenting kids during recovery. Well, Rodney and Tracey Wright, welcome back to the podcast and thanks for being a part of this series for equipping parents to have the hard conversations with their kids about sex.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Honored to be here.

Well, we know that you have written a book on this topic, and hopefully our— many of our listeners know, but we may have some who are new in this, in this new year when this series comes out. They're checking out the Pure Desire podcast. Uh, tell them a little bit about your book and why you decided to write it, Talking with Your Kids About Sex.

Well, I think going backwards a little bit, Rodney, as a pastor, after walking through recovery for himself and walking that out for a while, he started sharing some of this content with parents. And so he would say to me, I really wanna get on the front end of this topic. I wanna help young Rodney's is what he would say to me. And so that was really cool to me because we had already walked through a lot of our journey. And so just to watch him, it really came out of his heart to help parents to get on the front side, to maybe give the support that he didn't have, he wished he had, right? And all of us, you know, could say that at some, at some level that we wish our parents had had more support maybe than they did.

Yeah, and I was deeply influenced by, uh, a resource I found at that time by Cliff and Joyce Penner, P-E-N-N-E-R, Passionate Commitment, where they had just written a lot about healthy sexuality and what's good about human sexuality and development. And that was not a framework I got handed. And so I just thought, wow, what if we could actually give, you know, kids, uh, just a better way to see how God made their body and celebrate their sexuality as good and not let the porn industry be the only narrative for our kids. And I thought, I don't know how to do this. No one trained my dad, no one trained me, you know. And so we tried to write a little bit about it from just a perspective of, we think these are gonna— you know, this is a framework to best help your kids. And so the book's really maybe how to talk to your kid about anything. Sex is just some of the hardest things to talk about.

Well, and I want to say it has been a benefit for me personally as a parent with my kids and some of the framework of how do I create the right environment even more than say the right words. Because I think as parents, that's what we can get caught up on is like, I— right, I've got to say it exactly the right way or I'm going to ruin my kid or scar them or tell them too much. And we get so anxious maybe about the actual words versus just what's the environment of my home?

Yeah.

What are my kids hearing and receiving from me in that area? Do they feel safe and supported and like they can come to me, or have I become just the disciplinarian that they're afraid of getting caught by? And it just really transformed a lot of our thinking. And I, I, I do want to say I gave the wrong title for the book. It's not Talking with Your Kids, it's How To. So it's really a great how-to book, and that's what I'm testifying to— how to talk with your kids about sex. We've learned a lot, and we want to dive a little bit more into a unique aspect of those conversations.

Yeah. So here's our next question, is that one of the most challenging dynamics of recovery can be how to walk out this personal journey, um, really when you have kids in the home. And so what are some of the elements that makes this so difficult?

Well, I'll go first. I, I can speak from the addict side, Heather. You know, uh, if you're a man, a woman, but if you're the addict in recovery, there's shame because you made choices, uh, and mismanaged your sexuality that hurt you, hurt your spouse, uh, and hurt the kids. At some level. There's the ups and downs of recovery, of doing our own work and the chaos of, am I okay? I'm not okay. You know, how am I going to get through? I'm not going to get through. There's the spouse tension. Not only am I working my own recovery, but now I've dumped a pile of rocks on her and she's traumatized. There's the tension of just like, how and when do I share with my kids or anyone my story? There's just life uncertainty. There's the pressures of, oh yeah, but rent's coming. Oh yeah, but the lawn's got to get mowed. Oh yeah, but like life just doesn't stop in the midst of addiction and betrayal. So, oh yeah, holidays keep coming, birthdays keep coming, anniversaries keep coming. So like life just— there's a lot to manage. And so just knowing that, you know, life is challenging as it is, you know, but betrayal and secrets that come to surface of like, what, you have an addiction? What, this is a problem? You know, D-days when they arise, that alone just creates so much difficulty navigating all this.

And the betrayed partner is just working through a lot of those overwhelming emotions, right? So sometimes that's big emotions, sometimes that's shutting down emotions. And how do I navigate this when I still am living life, right? So sometimes I we'll talk to a big trade partner about how you have this wound on the inside. If we had an outside wound and we're in the hospital, everybody's showing up, making dinner, taking our responsibilities off of us. But when it's on the inside, we're kind of a walking zombie sometimes, walking around trying to— and then how do I appropriately show up for my kids, for myself? There's a lot to navigate there. And then we can also feel that just that feeling of, of now I've been told of something and now I feel like I have to hide this because we're not usually ready to share with very many people. Who do I share with and how? So I, I'm, again, I may have too big of what I feel like are too big of emotions or not enough emotions. And so there's a lot that we're carrying on the inside trying to navigate, especially at the very beginning.

Yeah.

Um, and then, you know, how do I do this? Am I making Does it feel like I'm making excuses for my behavior around those that are around me?

And I would just say this too. I think sometimes for many of us, our faith can be very helpful during this difficult time because it's open, it's honest. There's authenticity in our faith community and around the people we're with. And sometimes faith can be difficult during this time because it's not always a safe place to be open and honest and real about sexual addiction. Or sexual betrayal. So that could be a, you know, that could go either way as part of the difficulty.

[Speaker:DR. RACHEL_PETERS] I think another piece too is it's different for each home and family. And sometimes there's some really open things that the kids already have experienced because of how this came about. Other times they don't know anything. Sometimes our kids are very small and sometimes our kids are teenagers, you know, so, or young adults. And so there's a lot of variation in there. So it's great that we're talking about it because it is usually people's questions around that. And how do I do it in an age-appropriate way? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it occurs to me one of the unique challenges or aspects is the pressure to feel like we've got to just keep doing business as usual, act like everything's fine, go to all the stuff, do things like we've always done. And I think it can be helpful to just take a deep breath and say, you know what, in this season, Things don't have to look the same. We can do things differently. We can tell people we are not going, we won't be able to attend that, we are not participating in this or that, and we don't have to tell them all the reasons why. Our reason could be because we have chosen not to do that this year. And even with our kids, that may be something, "Hey, this year we are going to do things differently." "Well, why?" "Well, because that is what we are going to do this year." And hopefully there comes a point where we are able to be open and others are involved in the story, but in some of those initial days it may just be Things are going to look different right now. And that, that answer is enough, that things are going to look different, and we don't have to explain all the intricacies of why in that moment.

And even finding that delicate balance between— because we hear this a lot from betrayed partners, that it's like, the holidays are coming and I don't even want to do that because in the last few months I've felt so many emotions that I've never felt my whole entire life. And to be able to have to pull it together to be at a family Christmas party or something is just too much. And so just really giving parents permission, I guess, to say it's okay if it looks different. Like you said, it's okay if—

if—

I mean, you get to decide what's your capacity realistically. What's your capacity? What are you capable for— of this holiday season? And just, you know, keep all of those things in mind, because sometimes, I don't know, the pressure to perform is really strong.

Yeah, that's so good.

That reminds me, Heather, that reminds me of just this last week working with, um, one of the betrayed partners, and their anniversary was coming, and this is really fresh for her. And the things that they had planned, the concert or whatever, she was really looking forward to that, and she wanted to still do it, but it didn't feel right. So there was that inner conflict of like I shouldn't do that, but I want to do that. And so we were able to redefine that too. Like, let's talk about it before and what are our expectations and what do you want and don't you want? And, and ended up being a really good experience for her because of that. It didn't have to look exactly the same. We didn't have to be celebrating in the same way, right? Because she didn't feel celebratory, but she still wanted to be able to go do that with her spouse, go to something she was looking forward to. So I thought that was really healthy too.

Yeah, and you both said it too, uh, it's okay to be a tentative guest at something. And if you need to back out, give yourself permission to back out because you've gone through trauma or you're navigating a deep addiction. And just be kind to yourself, be a tentative guest, and, uh, take care of yourself, number one, because it is difficult to navigate.

So sometimes a way that we're able to see the correct or helpful steps to take is by identifying the unhelpful steps or the things that have been done wrong. And sometimes it's the extremes. And so As you've worked with parents and families, let's start there. What are some of the mistakes? And I obviously don't want you to call anybody out or identify anyone by name, but what are some of the mistakes that you've seen parents make or that you feel like you made with their kids while they're walking through early stages of recovery?

Well, I think in general, just not owning your part of this, you know, any kind of blame shifting is just, you know, so toxic. And just putting gas on the fire. That's just so unhealthy. So just first of all, one mistake is like, just own it. I did that in my story of addiction. I hurt Tracy. She— it wasn't her, it was me. I did that. It was mine to own. So just own it. And then I think in just in like with your kids, um, it's not a one and done. Like, just think about like, they don't— it's not just one conversation and, and now we're fine. And that, it's like You know, being empathetic. And then like, just, just like we talk to our kids about sex in layers, what they're able to handle, so too, like, don't feel like you got to share everything at once and then you're flooding them and they're like, ah. So like, sometimes it's just like, yeah, we're navigating a difficult season in our marriage right now and we're going to a counselor to get help. Just like if your car breaks down, you go to a mechanic. So we're going to a counselor. Um, instead of like, uh, you know, like, don't make it such a, you know, the house is on fire, but yeah, we're gonna get some help because that's what you do. And so just try to, you know, sometimes if you don't normalize it, like, it's okay to get help, but it's like shocking. You need help? Yeah, I need help. So if you're making it where, you know, if we ask for help, that wouldn't be normal for us as a family, that's not a healthy family system. So that's kind of some of the common mistakes. Because we're Christians, we don't get help, or because we're ministers, in our case, we don't get help. I just think like getting help is a beautiful thing in whatever area of life you need it. And so if you're just anti-help, that's not a good thing for your family or your healthy family system.

If you're, you know, when you are, I should say, really overwhelmed, right? So experiencing the recovery, experiencing the betrayal, sometimes we have a hard time regulating our emotions for ourself and then how we're gonna share with other people or shutting down too much. How do I do that? And so I think one of the mistakes might be just to share in a way with our kids or around our kids that's dumping on them, that's not helpful to them. And, and that can be hard to do if your own emotions are not regulated. So that's why I would say immediately to pause as much as you can, pause in this kind of overwhelmed place, get support and let people walk with you in how to do that. And how do I walk this out around my kids in a healthy way? How do I put something on a shelf? And because I need to go do this responsibility and be there for my children, and how do I bring it down then at appropriate times and face it and not you know, not just sweep it under the rug. So I think that's one of the, one of the things I see, and I think it's very normal. So just normalizing that, but reach out for help. Rodney and I did that. So our, you know, our journey with our kids, they were very young, it was a long time ago now. And I remember Rodney was— now I'm, I'm trying to be really honest, and we've done disclosure, and I, I want to say something to our kids, which I think is, is noble. I, I don't want to be hiding. And then me being like, well, they're okay, well, they're 5 for a baby. So how do we do that? And us being able to talk through that, well, right now we're going to share it in this way. It's going to be very, very little information. It's good to have something because our kids feel what we're feeling. They experience something. And for us, that started kind of this conversation about living on a journey of we are people that grow in all areas of our life. So we could start with, uh, we're getting counseling, or they don't know what counseling is. We're getting people that support mommy and daddy. We're going through hard things, or we feel this emotion, right? I feel sad right now, and so I reach out to someone. That is a great starting point in your family to teach your kids how to reach out, and that moms and dads feel emotions too. And when they do, this is what they do with that, you know. So I think there's some really good principles of modeling that can relieve some of that tension for you without dumping something on your kids.

Yeah, that is so good. And it even really— I mean, in the midst of it, it can seem kind of scary, but helping your kids to put language to emotion, even at those younger ages, is so important.

Yeah, yeah. What I hear you saying is to avoid maybe the extremes, that either extreme is unhelpful. If I'm just emotionally vomiting and my kids are recipients of just like, like that's not helpful for them. And on the other hand, if I'm saying absolutely nothing and acting like we're fine, everything's fine, nothing's different, like, because they know something's not, they're like, something's going on, and they're acting like it's not. And so what we're, I think, talking about today is how do we find that middle ground between those two? If neither extreme is healthy, what does it look like to be walking our own journey and including our kids enough that we're not either overly traumatizing them as well, or acting like everything's fine and nothing's happening.

Yeah, which really— I mean, this next question is going to allow us to dig into this a little bit deeper because it is definitely an emotional roller coaster for both people involved, for the person struggling, for the betrayed partner. And so as parents, how much do we allow our kids to see so that we're not then, you know, taking them on that emotional roller coaster with us Tell us what that would look like.

Yeah. So I think when you share emotion, like if you share facts, that's just like details of facts. Like it's, you know, it's cold outside. That's a fact. But how does the cold weather make me feel? Well, I kind of get a little bit, you know, if it's gray and cloudy, I get a little depressed. If it's snowy and blizzardy, I get a little warm feelings because it just feels cozy and I can get a book and get a blanket or whatever, you know, like Emotions share a little bit more how things feel. So I think healthy homes like still share emotion. Like my grandson said, now I said to my grandson just the other day, now, Louie, we're going to watch this show, but when we're done, we're not going to cry. And he said, Papa, it's okay to cry. Crying is not wrong. And I said, Louie, you're correct. Crying is not wrong, but I want to teach you how to use words too. So, you know, we were just like, I was like, hey, Louie's getting taught well, you know, emotions aren't wrong. But sometimes it's just like that. So I think like for us, you know, Heather, I had so much shame that I just kind of held everything in for a long time because I didn't find healing in a community where I could learn to kind of share and process those feelings. So I wish in hindsight I would have shared more of some of my emotions of like, man, I feel discouraged or I feel insecure. And, or I just would have had some language just to be more vulnerable with my kids, not to dump on them, but just to say, hey, this is difficult for me. And so, yeah, it is a roller coaster. But I think there's something just about not falling apart in front of the kids. Maybe it's things, but like Tracy said, having a shelf for them or it's okay to see us cry or have uncertainty. And not of us, not a lot of us were raised in homes where that was really modeled for us. So like we get to kind of model that now where it's okay not to be okay. And how much of our kids should see? Well, that's different. I just asked the question, is this helpful information? If this pen represents information I'm going to give my kids, I'm just going to say, is it helpful to give them this right now or not helpful? You know, I have a granddaughter. She takes a pen or a marker and she's marking on the walls. That's not helpful, Holly. That's not helpful. So Papa's going to hold the pen, but you can hold Papa's hand as we hold the pen, right? So like, how much is helpful? And then if I give too much, is this destructive or not beneficial? So there's always that litmus test as we're unfolding our story and sharing our feelings. Like, what's the appropriateness, age appropriateness that's going to be beneficial for our relationship with the child as we navigate this?

And I don't look back and say Rodney and Tracey did that perfectly. I don't know if we did. It's not like I think we did it terribly either. I don't think there's a way to know that we're doing that perfectly. We're just, you know, hopefully gathering information, you know, stabilizing our emotions, gathering people around us, having safe places that we can fall apart if we need to fall apart, right? In a healthy way, like having those kind of things put in place. But for the parent or the, you know, the couple that's out there, just to know, we're just gonna keep taking that next step and learning and growing in those layers of recovery. And we're not gonna get everything all right, whatever all right even means. We're just gonna walk that the best that we know how. And we're gonna, today you're listening to this, then you're gaining information on how to walk that out. And your story's gonna be a little different than ours probably. And you guys can focus on that together, or if you're a single parent, getting that support around you to know, how do I do this? And how, How can I walk this out the best that I know how to do? And then give yourself so much grace for that journey that you've never walked through, right? And I'm walking through something that I haven't walked through this before, and I'm going to do it the best that I know how.

Yeah, that's such a great point to take that pressure off ourselves to do it perfectly. And I think this question speaks to me about the importance of being in a group and being with a counselor, because some of those deep emotions and pain and fears and challenges, they need to come out. I think they're designed to come out. And the best place for them to come out is with those that are equipped to handle it, a counselor and a group that we can go into those really deep things. Because I think what may happen sometimes for parents is in the lack of having appropriate outlets, their kid is in the car with them and suddenly they are kind of turning their kid into their therapist because we are driving and here it all comes, not realizing like, "Wow, that is not the right person to share this with." If I have other places to share appropriately, then I can better discern, well, what is, like you were saying, Rodney, what is the right level to share with my kid? Or my children. And, and that may mean in this season you need more help of, of taking care of your kids, of, of having places you get a breather, saying, you know, right now I need a little space and I've, I've got too much to process to be with my kids 16 hours a day. If I'm the primary caregiver, I may need to ask for more help so that I can— and then the other thing I was thinking about— so that I can engage in self-care. Because whether we're the struggler or the betrayed, if we're able to engage in some self-care that helps us regulate our emotions, helps us, you know, kind of stabilize where we're at, even if we're going through a ton, then we can be present for our kids in a way that, that is helpful to them because we're doing that self-care. So don't neglect self-care, particularly if you've got kids in the home while you're doing recovery, because the more self-care you do, I think you'll make wise choices in how you engage with your kids during this season.

Yeah. And Nick, I would just add to that, that is so good. Like, Tracy and I went and got counseling just on how to help our kids navigate this. Like, We got counseling on how to be parents, not just our marriage. We got parent counseling. So to that point, uh, reach out and ask people to help you. Uh, well said. But like, I mean, Tracy and I've gotten help— financial counseling, we got addiction, betrayal counseling, we got— I mean, I'll get car counseling, I'll get counseling for any— I'm not afraid to ask anybody for help. I've learned that lesson. It's okay to ask for help, you know. Uh, you're not going to have all the answers.

I would think I would add to that too, as I'm thinking like that very first kind of starting of our recovery journey. I was pastor's kid, trying to do everything the Bible says. And I came from a starting place of, it's in the Bible, I can figure this out. I've done good so far managing my life. You know, I'm in my 20s, so how much life I had, but I was pretty, pretty proud that I was managing well. And I have learned through the years, right, that it is more than that. So recovery opened my eyes to so much more. But when I was hit with this bulldozer, right, I realized I needed to reach out and get some more support and that it wasn't just, oh, I'm going to read my Bible and I know that the scripture says that and I'm going to say that anxiety verse over and over in my head, you know, and it's going to get better. But again, the layers and the learning about that. So obviously to the point where now I am one of the counselors for Pure Desire because I believe in it so much. And a couple of years back, we went through a trauma that was about health for our child, an ongoing trauma. I literally made, made an appointment, sat down with the counselor and said, I'm going to cry and tell my story because this is the appropriate place for me to do that. And I'm not going to be embarrassed about it. I'm just going to sob and tell my story. And so I always invite that too when I'm supporting someone. So you need to have yourself healthy, safe place to cry and tell your story and fall apart and do whatever you need to do. And then you take that journey of like, okay, what does regulating look like from there? And how do I, how do I show up for other people? Because we, it's hard to give out a depletion, right? Like you said, Nick, with self-care, give out a overflow, it looks differently. Mm-hmm.

Oh, I love that.

So in recovery, sooner or later, uh, as parents, we want our kids to know what's happening. And while this can vary a lot depending on the ages of our kids, what are some of the general principles that you would give to parents regarding disclosure to their children?

Um, Nick, you kind of brought up a term, uh, you didn't say it, but I heard it, uh, like be careful for enmeshment. Where, you know, you're enmeshing the relationship of like, you know, in this case, maybe the betrayed partner would say, you know, your, your father or mother, whoever the betrayed is, the betrayer, you know, is such a bad person, but we love them anyway. You know, just be careful for enmeshment or making sure that you're united as you move forward to this. Your kid isn't your therapist and they're not your, you know, salvation for this. But you're just trying to live out an authentic journey to help them. That's, that's the heart behind this is like, I want to help my kid. You know, it's that, it's that statement, you're not going to have time to make all the mistakes in life. I want you to learn from some of mine, right? What a gift that we can learn from others that have gone before us to say, hey, don't do this, do it this way. And so I think just some of those principles, like, uh, to me are, um, have the heart that wants to help your kid, learn from some of your challenges, and then how do you create a safe relationship where you know, at the right time in the right place, you can have some of those conversations. And I remember my therapist saying to me, Jesse, um, Jesse would say, Rod, the conversation you have with your boys when they're 7 is different than when they're 17, and it's different when they're 27. And I was just with my son the other day, Keaton, my youngest, 28. We're driving into Oregon, going to a Duck game, and he's like, Dad, tell me about your, your addiction story. What, what were some of the struggles with your sexual addiction? What were some of the the challenges you found yourself navigating? And I just was like, well, it was this, this, this, and this. And I'm just going through my negative sexual history, and I had shame. And man, but when I'm sharing with my son at 28 in the car, Nick and Heather, I had zero shame. In fact, it was just like, and Keaton, do you want Wendy's or McDonald's at the next exit? I mean, it was just a matter of like, there's no big deal here. But like, different mature levels, uh, what, what's going to be helpful for my kid? And I It just left us with saying, my dad's authentic, my dad's living his journey in a way that can be helpful for me, not just in this area, but all areas of life that he's learned something and can grow in. And so that's what I would say is just, you know, age appropriate. Is this helpful information and are they at a good place to receive this? You know, and there's, there's just some real factors there. And then obviously you two being on the same page is really helpful as well.

So some parents might think that this conversation only applies if they have young kids in the home. But really, when it comes to disclosing to even our adult children, um, how can that be really healing to our recovery journey as well as even the possibility of changing our family systems? What do you guys think about that?

We talked a lot because our kids were really young, um, when we had disclosure. So we talked a lot about when and how we would share that, and we started doing it in small pieces. And then around the time they were teenagers, we also took kind of into regard where they were at and what, like, what their needs were at the time. And then, um, so I said we didn't necessarily do it perfectly. We don't know if we did or not, but we shared when they were all teenagers. Um, and what we found was this new openness in our family and our relationship that was really, I think, really beautiful because I think what it opened up for them is if I have a struggle we can talk about it if I have a struggle. And we thought we were handing them that, but I could see it go to a deeper level of like our kids just knowing like there isn't anything off the table. We can talk to our parents about anything. So as they have become young adults, that just continues. And Rodney just shared a story about that, but that just continues that there are a lot of different kinds of conversations that I believe we have because of that openness of our own journey and our own story and being able to kind of disclose more as we went along.

Yeah, and I, I think just bringing clarity. If you're an adult, and I, I've talked to, uh, individuals that are connected with Pure Desire who have a strange relationship with their children that are adults now because of their addiction. They're the addict, maybe, and their kids want nothing to do with them. And so that place of humility and that place of, I've hurt you, uh, And if you haven't had a chance just to own that piece, that's always a great place to start. Uh, not to blame ship, but just to say, I had these actions, I hurt you, and it kept me from being a present dad or a present mother, uh, when you were being raised. And I need to own that. That's part of my recovery work that I'm doing. So, you know, thank you for letting me share, or here's the letter I'm sending, or the whatever, but expressing that. But I think just like as the child is ready, just kind of walking with more information when they're ready and cultivating that authentic relationship that you want. And just a shout out to my dad. He died 3 years ago this month. He's my best friend. And Nick could probably tell how I describe my dad. Nick and John could tell it better than I could because they've only heard me say it.

They've heard it a lot.

10,000 times, right? But he was such a wonderful person. But he was a pretty positive guy, and he kind of grew up in that don't let anyone see you sweat kind of world. As he got older, he started to have some challenges just with his physical body and, and connecting with sexuality because of ED. And so my mom said to him one night, maybe in their 80s, Joe, you better go share that with your boys. Someday when they're old, they might have those same issues. Like, my mom and dad are having these conversations, right? Which I just love. And I remember when my dad had that conversation with me— well, actually, he went to his doctor and he shared with his doctor, and his doctor said, Joe, you should change wives. And I said, Dad, what did you say to your doctor? He said, I changed doctors. And I said, good call, Dad, good call, you know. And I love my dad's humor, you know. He said, I was out with that guy. And, um, but the beautiful part is, like, my dad would say, Rod, you never stop being the parent. You will always be their parent. And what we model is more important than what we say. So, like, You know, to see my grandkids now that are in my world and Louie to say, Papa, you know, it's okay to cry.

You know, that's powerful.

And then to realize that, like, you know, I get to keep modeling because I didn't do it all right with my kids either. I did not do it right. And I had to look at them and say, sorry, guys, that came out of my brokenness. And I had to own that. And then now as I, I get together with my adult children, I try to channel my inner Tracy, you know, less is more, be a good listener, you know, you know, all that stuff that's creating healthy connection and rhythm, you know? And as, um, I, I don't know why I just feel this so strongly is I got to sit at my dad's bed.

Yeah.

I guess it's cuz it's the anniversary. I'm feeling that, I'm sure too. But I sobbed like a baby about 3 hours before he passed away. Thanking God for him, just so grateful for what we had and the vulnerability that he led and that I led, and it took our relationship to a really beautiful place. And so I just would say, uh, humility and vulnerability looks good on everybody. And like, you know, when I saw him take his last breath, you know, I knew him and I loved him, and he knew me and he loved me. And to me, that's the essence of what I think Jesus is trying to help us see, that we're all worthy of love and power of that love can really bring a lot of healing. And so, mom and dad, don't underestimate your vulnerability. Don't underestimate, like, being humble to your adult kids and respecting where they're at on their journey. Not, not trying to fix them anymore, but just trying to say, you know, this informs why but doesn't excuse why. That's a, that's a quote from Heather Cole. This informs why but doesn't excuse why, you know, and, and taking responsibility for yourself. So that's just some of the pieces I would just say to our listeners today, Nick.

That's a, a really beautiful story, Rodney. And one of the aspects I want to point out where I think couples might miss this is we hear the word disclosure and we think that means a, a full and accurate reporting of everything I've done. And to our spouse, that may be true. In terms of disclosing to our adult children in particular, the focus is not on the specifics of what was done. I think we need to share in a broad or general way that enough of what happened that they know, you know, so they're not guessing, like, what do you mean? But the focus with our children is much more on the impact on them. And like you said, taking ownership for the environment in the home, my presence or lack thereof as a parent, ways in which my emotional journey might have come out on them and impacted them negatively. And I think our kids need to hear that because even as adults, and sometimes I get this like, well, they're grown, they're out of the home, it's too late. I'm like, No, it's not too late because they grew up in your home and they probably still, even if they're not asking them out loud, they subconsciously have all these questions about the home they grew up in, the things they were led to believe about themselves or their value or their worth. And, and they have some pieces of the puzzle that are completely missing if they don't know your story. And so it's, it's an honoring thing. It gives them the dignity of choice to fill in the puzzle pieces, like, here's the reality of my world. And the ways I need to own in which it may have impacted you. And if you'd ever like to talk more or hear more of my story, I'd be glad to share that. But I'm really focusing in this disclosure to you to own things and help you understand the home you grew up in and mistakes that I made. And I find that kids are at any age are receptive to that, of understanding how you've influenced them as a parent. And I think could lead to some great conversations. And one other maybe pushback I received is when people say, "Well, I've got a great relationship with my kids. I don't want to ruin that." And what I hear in that statement is actually their shame speaking that says, "If they knew the real me, I don't know if they'd love me." And over and over, and not everyone's going to react perfectly or positively or in the same way, but by and large, authenticity and humility will lead to growth of the relationship, not rejection. And so when it's done well, when it's done in a spirit to take ownership, to help them understand more about their childhood, and even asking their forgiveness, kids don't run away from that, they lean in. And it often opens the door for a child to say, "You know, I've had struggles too," or, "I've had issues because your vulnerability makes me feel safe that I could be vulnerable." And those relationships actually get much deeper. So I would encourage anyone listening who feels like, "Well, our relationship's good. I don't want to, you know, ruffle feathers or stir the waters up. It's in the past." Now, there's a lot of really healing work that can happen, and it could actually lead to an even stronger relationship with your kids down the road.

Mm-hmm. You know, Nick, one of those sacred moments for me— man, I'm real teary today— was when my son said to me, "Dad, I wouldn't be on this recovery myself if I didn't watch you go first. Thank you for going first in your journey so I knew what to do when I was in a tough spot in my own journey of recovery." And like, uh, I know we just thought, bummer, I thought I was going to break the curse. I thought my kids were going to be sinless. What's the deal here? Wait a minute, you know. But hey, uh, what we model is more important. And really grateful that like, um, that vulnerability was a gift. And, you know, he has made really beautiful choices now, and we're celebrating his journey in so many beautiful ways.

Yeah, I think I would just add to that too, kind of what both of you are saying, but yeah, it doesn't mean our kids aren't going to struggle. Sometimes that's a misnomer, and we believe fully in appropriate authenticity, right, and vulnerability. And so all of those points I think are so important, and when we choose a path, there is risk in it, and every child is different. We know that from raising our children. They experience things differently, and for some it will hit differently than for others. So in some pieces there also is that release of, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask for support, I'm gonna do this the best that I can, and my kids may react differently. They may fully embrace that, and they may, it may take them time and layers, or they may feel some distance. And so I have to continue to heal in that too, like in their response and what what that means to them. And so I think, I think that's an important part of that too, because I think all, all of those things are true and none, none of them are a surefire thing. Like, here's our steps that everything's going to be all fixed. And so just again, just adding those pieces as we go and giving people space and time to process things when change comes or when new information comes.

That's always a sign of respect. Respect, space and time to process, you know.

Heather, I know when your boys were little you walked through a lot of challenges and relationship things. And now that your boys are adults, what does that relationship look like for you with them?

It is great. It took a lot of the same things that you guys are talking about when, um, I went through a divorce in my first marriage and just really getting that help, getting counseling for myself, but also recognizing that I was not the only one in the house going through a divorce, that my kids were going through a divorce, and they needed language, and they needed support, and they needed understanding, and they needed certain amounts of information at the appropriate times. And so I am so thankful that I have such a great relationship with my sons and with the daughters-in-law, and grandkids, which are just the greatest thing. And I guess too, my encouragement would be for parents, and I know we already said this, but if there's any rupture that has happened in the course of all of this, that there's no statute of limitation on repair, that repair is always possible. Well said. And it just, I don't know, it breaks my heart to hear parents who say, "Oh, well, I haven't talked to my son in this many years," or, you know, and it's like, do it, do it, do it, do it as though this was your last day on Earth. Do it.

So yeah, yeah, that's so good, Heather.

I just, I just got a text from one of our, uh, one of our donors and a guy that's been through group, and he's just like, Rod, I've reconciled with my daughter. We're going to get together this weekend. It was so celebratory. And he, he's, you know, uh, older than I am and at a different season of life, and yet You know, he's finding reconciliation. So like, hey, if that's, uh, you know, it takes two to reconcile, but mom and dad, adults, we can at least do our part to be in position when they— when our child's ready as an adult.

Yeah.

So we talked earlier in the episode about some of the don'ts or things where you've seen it go poorly. As you've worked with couples, as, uh, you know, you've been in group and, and talked with a lot of parents, when you see them navigating this well, both doing their own recovery and raising their kids because that goes on in the middle of recovery. You still gotta raise the kids and feed them and clothe them and get them to school. And when you've seen parents handle that well, what do you think some of the things they're doing right? And how would you encourage people with that? Like, hey, here's ways it has, it's a messy situation, but here are some dos along the way in recovery and parenting.

Do be a learner. Do never stop learning. I would say that number one, right? We're listening, gathering information, learning about ourselves. Curiosity with kindness and compassion. That's probably the biggest thing that I remind myself of at this season of life. How do I be curious around myself and others and continue to grow, be self-reflective, and be present? And that takes time for for a betrayed partner, that nervous system can take over and we feel like we don't even have the capacity to make the decisions we normally would make. Okay, so what do I need during that journey? And then how do I increase that window of tolerance and take risks so that again, I can kind of reclaim myself? So that would be one of my biggest dos that I see are people that reach out to other really We can't do anything in isolation. And this is one area. Be a learner.

Yeah, I'm going to stay with the B theme. Be a learner. And I got another B for our listener. Breathe. When you breathe, you get out of your limbic brain. Everyone go like this. This is the limbic brain. Everyone go like this. This is the prefrontal cortex. Heather Kolb has taught me this. When I breathe, it brings oxygen back to my prefrontal cortex. And this is where we make better decisions. This is more fight or flight. And so, like, I just would say the more you can just practice being present in the room, in the space you are right now, self-regulate by your breathing. And I think, you know, this is— there's a whole beautiful thing about not taking the Lord's name in vain, because in the Hebrew language, they would say that breathing was actually saying the name of God, Yahweh. So like, God is as close as our breath. And I think there's something sacred about breathing, slowing down, being present. That is a good-do about, okay, I'm in this moment, here's the situation. Holy Spirit, can you guide me here about what to say, what not to say? It, you know, and the, the, the— this is where I'm so grateful as a follower of Christ. Like, the more I've learned to live in this kingdom of God, eternal life, It's more about the present every day. How can I be present to this moment on this podcast with you guys? And, um, that's been a big learning for me. And I think that's such a do when it comes to parenting and our kids. Is this the right time to share? Oh, this isn't the right time. I'm aware. Breathing helps us create self-awareness and getting back in our prefrontal cortex. We can just make, I think we can learn to listen to the spirit cuz we're not operating outta fear. And we can, we can make good decisions more in the moment. You have another B, Tracy?

No, I was just thinking about watch the movie Inside Out and like, yes, as a parent, how do you— how do your emotions show up? Like with our kids, right? We get a lot of shame. We get a lot of, I didn't parent right, or I parented great or whatever. We— our emotions, how do they show up? And so as a specific example, I saw Rodney show up over and over in a heart of humility. Even when, you know, kids would struggle, even if it wasn't around this area or around disclosure, showing up with humility and listening. And sometimes our defensiveness gets there. It gets in the way of repairing those relationships. So that's a big piece that I saw because I think, Nick, you said something about they're putting together their own narrative. They have a cohesive narrative. Their narrative is important. One of my sons came back to me years later in counseling and asked my, my story. And I hadn't shared a lot of personal things about my story, but as an adult, I got to answer questions for him. And I knew I answered questions I didn't feel like answering, but I laid some things down and just said, this is a part of his cohesive narrative, him understanding his world. So I think that's a really big thing that I would just share with parents. If you can put down that humility or I'm sorry, put on humility, lay down that defensiveness. And if you need some support in how to set boundaries because it feels like, you know, it's abusive or how they're treating you, you can go and get support for that too. But I think those three elements are pretty important for parents and kids relationships in any ways. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that is so good. You guys had mentioned, and we've talked about it, being aware of our emotions and being able to regulate our emotions. And if you've come from an environment where your MO was to stuff those emotions down, to not feel them because feeling your emotions is scary, it's going to take time. It's not something that is innate to us. And so even if it was that I want to be able to find a safe place where I can experience emotion in, in a healthy way and just be able to feel it and then be able to have that awareness, that might take time, but that— it's so worth it. It's so worth being emotionally aware because then it helps us to be able to read other people's emotions, the emotions of our children, so much better. But we have to be able to do it first for ourselves, and it's, it's not easy if you're not— if you haven't ever practiced that.

Yeah, yeah. So great. I think a piece I would say when it's gone well is when the couple, as much as possible, because I know we Sometimes in recovery, the couple is in separation, or that's not— the marriage is not surviving for appropriate reasons. But when the couple is walking through this together, the more that they can function as a parenting team, the better it's gonna go. And I wanna speak directly to the male strugglers because that's more often than not where it happens. They've seen the ways in which they've been disengaged from the home and the family and the kids and kind of expecting her to do it. And part of your recovery may be coming alongside your spouse and saying, How do we do this together? How do I help provide space for you to do your own work and care? How could I help more with dinners or laundry or errands or whatever it is like that? We're a team in this. And then when we're going to talk about what do our kids need to know, we're, we're a team in that. And so the more that I've seen couples function in, in maybe— and this might be a new rhythm of real partnership in raising the kids in this recovery season, the better it's going to go. And again, I know that's not always possible, but where it is, And I'm speaking again to you, the male struggler, like the more you can lean in with her and make sure this is something you do together to navigate this, the better it can go. So Rodney, Tracey, I think this is a vital topic. I feel like we could do a whole series just on this, but what, you know, what final encouragement would you like to give listeners today regarding raising their kids while in recovery?

Take a look at what you got handed, what each of you got handed, right? Really do that work of your own family of origin, because a lot of our patterns come out of that. And then once we've done some of that work, or as we're doing that work, we, we get the opportunity as a couple then to say, what do we want to hand? And Rodney tends to say to our— he said many times to our kids, take what was good about our marriage and our family with you and leave the rest behind. So he's encouraging them to then do their work around what they got handed and so on and so on. So I hope, I hope that they will do that too. But that would be my advice to you to start at where you're at right now. Have we done the work of looking at what we got handed and how we operate out of that? Those false beliefs, true beliefs, things that we're bringing forward into our family and marriage.

Yeah, you got to feel to heal, as Heather said. It's taken me a long time, and this is why I'm grateful for my counseling work and my recovery work, things like the FASTR scale, the feeling wheel. It's taken me a long time just to be able to feel my emotions and sit with them and then know how to process them well and detect some thinking errors. My therapist would say, Rod, your emotions are the tail that wags the dog. If I feel it, it must be true, even if it's a lie connected to it. There's a lot to sort out on that. And the more work you do, the inner work you do, this is the beauty of our recovery journey. Like the more inner work you do, it's the best gift you give your kids. It's the best gift you give your kids. So be aware, breathe, and be a moviegoer. That's what the 3 Bs, that's the 3 Bs I would leave you with. And what's the movie called again?

Uh, Inside Out.

I'm glad you clarified that because I was like, okay, go ahead.

3 Bs, just do these 3 Bs.

Yeah. Inside Out.

You're gonna be good.

Yeah, I think that I would add one thing is that we've talked about several good ideas in this episode. And so for listeners to just choose one thing, if the Holy Spirit has prompted you and, and you're starting to think, you know what, maybe I need to repair this relationship, or maybe I need to reach out for some help and get counseling, whatever it is, just pick one thing and start today.

Yeah, the word that comes to mind for me is, is be present, be present with your kids. And in some ways you're going to take your cues from them that there may be kids that they're good, they're not asking much questions and you're looking for opportunities, but things are going along pretty smoothly while you're doing recovery. And other kids may have lots of questions and just being present to help them navigate what they're navigating and not just think, well, what do I need to do more? Just be present with your kids and take from them what cues am I getting of what they might need from me? And that might really help dictate what you do for them as you walk this recovery road. So it's, it's not going to be easy. You're not going to do it perfectly. You know, there's no easy way to do a hard thing, and recovery is a hard thing, and adding kids to the mix multiplies that. So be gracious with yourself, with them, and if you've made mistakes, own it, apologize for it, and keep moving forward together. So Rodney, Tracey, thank you for the vital work that you do. Thanks for writing the book How to Talk with Your Kids About Sex, and thanks for having this really important conversation with us today.

Our pleasure.

Thank you. Pleasure to be with you guys.

Yes. And if you'd like to hear more from Rodney and Tracey, you can find their book, How to Talk with Your Kids About Sex, at our website, PureDesire.org. Go to the store. And we've also made that book into an online training course for parents that could be used as couples or in churches. Our parent training course is also on the Pure Desire website. And finally, if you're a fan of this content, if you like today's show, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review, give us some likes. All of this are way that other parents and others in recovery might find this life-giving information. And if you want more information about Pure Desire groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.