Rebuilding the Physical Relationship After Betrayal | Ep. 463
In this episode of the Pure Desire Podcast, host Nick Stumbo and co‑host Rebecca Vandemeer interview married clinicians Nate and Maggie Blalock, co‑founders of Known Counseling Services. The conversation is the fourth installment of a five‑part series on couples recovery after sexual betrayal. The guests share their professional and personal experience rebuilding the physical/sexual relationship after betrayal, highlighting common pitfalls (rushing intimacy, using sex as a metric, avoidance, weaponizing withholding), the need for emotional safety, and the importance of treating physical intimacy as a gradual, therapeutic process akin to post‑surgery physical therapy. They discuss practical tools: prioritizing emotional connection, using non‑sexual touch, employing I‑statements, structured conversation aids like the Gottman Cardex, and integrating professional counseling. The dialogue also covers differing desire levels, the role of expectations, the value of quality over quantity, and resources (Emily Nagoski, Sexual Reintegration Therapy, The Great Sex Rescue, Clifford & Joyce Penner). Throughout, the hosts stress that rebuilding intimacy is a unique, non‑linear journey that requires patience, honest communication, and a willingness to create a new, healthier sexual dynamic rather than trying to return to the pre‑betrayal “normal.”
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Hello, hello there, good listener. I am your host Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. And whether today is your first day of recovery or your 10,000th, we hope that these are conversations that will guide, encourage, and bless you along the way in your journey. Today is episode 463, and here joining me as my co-host throughout this series is Rebecca Vandemeer. Rebecca, welcome back.
Hey, thanks. It's lovely to be here.
Yes, yes, uh, we are making our way through this series on couples recovery. Today's part 4, and, uh, I think the, the heart or theme throughout this series has just been to acknowledge we can do some really good work as individuals, but often the work of recovery in the marriage is longer, messier, and even in some ways more emotionally challenging.
Yeah, yeah. And it's so worth it though, you know, even though it's expected to be difficult and challenging. When we're willing to do the hard work, it's just so beautiful to see what happens as a result of that hard work, as a result of all facing the challenges that come with that. In addition to not just the emotional side of our relationship, then also bringing in the physical side of our relationship, which is part of what we'll be talking about today.
Yeah, today's conversation, we wanted to dive into an area that it can feel really personal, and we, we haven't been given good language how to talk about our physical, our sex life together, and so it gets avoided. And yet it can become a major part of the growth and recovery that we see with couples. And I'm, I'm curious, you know, you and your husband Bob are clinicians with Pure Desire, and you work with couples all the time. What percentage of couples would you say are challenged to reintegrate their physical sexual relationship after, uh, betrayal?
That's easy, probably 80%. I mean, it's a high, high percentage, but it's not uncommon.
And so, and that's what I was getting at, like, this is most of us. If there's been any kind of betrayal, whether it's porn use or affair, like, this part of the marriage gets challenging and we need help and we need to rebuild it. Yeah.
Start from scratch, so to speak.
And we have some great guests today, Nate and Maggie Blalock. Maggie is a CSAT living in South Dakota. Her husband Nate is a coach and helps people. They help people, they help couples together, and we really got to glean from their wisdom today.
Yeah, looking forward to hearing what they have to offer and get some good takeaways to think about and steps to implement in moving forward.
And so even if you're listening and you're not yet married, I think today's conversation is powerful because it can help you think through your expectations as you approach marriage. Or maybe you're on the other side of a marriage that has failed. This might give you some insights into what was missed and prepare you for what could be a future marriage. And if even if you're committed, like, hey, I did the marriage thing, I'm in a place in life, I don't plan to be married again, I think you're going to get some information today that you could become that helper, you could become that guide to help others that walk through this because no one is more equipped to help people in a difficult situation than someone who has walked through that situation themselves. So I think there is something here for everyone as we talk about this very unique topic. A little bit about Nate and Maggie Blalock, they have 13 years of recovery in their ongoing health work. They have lived this experience and now are helping others through Known Counseling Services, which they co-founded. Maggie, again, as I mentioned, is a professional mental health counselor and certified sex addictions therapist, and Nate is a life and recovery coach. Their passion is guiding individuals and couples towards authenticity, emotional safety, and real transformation. They are speakers, retreat leaders, and passionate advocates for healing, intimacy, and wholehearted relationships. Here now is our conversation with Nate and Maggie Blalock, part 4 of 5 in our Couples Recovery Series, and today's topic is Rebuilding The physical relationship after recovery. Well, Nate and Maggie Blalock, welcome back to the Pure Desire Podcast.
Thank you, it's so good to be back.
Love it.
Yeah, good to see you guys again. And of course, you, you've been on to share your story, and we'll have that in the show notes of like what episode if people want to go back and hear your full story. Today you get to be on as guest experts. So before we get to the topic at hand, would you just, for those that haven't heard your story yet, maybe tell us a little bit about yourselves and the work you do in helping couples navigate recovery.
Yeah, kick us off.
Sure. Um, yeah, so we ourselves are 13 and a half years— that half, we're like kids on a half birthday, very important to us to count the half year— um, into our own recovery journey. And, um, we initially started just working with, um, our local church after we got into recovery and got healthy and found PD and started really pushing, um, a ministry within our church to help people and eventually, um, went on to get trained as professionals. And now we are co-owners of Known Counseling Services where, um, I'm a licensed professional therapist and a CSAT and Nate is a life and recovery coach and we get to help professionally walk couples through the healing journey, both individually and as a couple.
Yeah. Yeah, we live in the great state of South Dakota. So I'm looking out the window to a blizzard at the moment. So everybody in warm weather can be jealous.
And you can just about see the other side of the state, right? In South Dakota, pretty much.
It's pretty flat. It's just flat enough you can. So we're in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Parents of 3 awesome kids. Jax, Kendall, Jonah. And yeah, we get to do this work individually with couple or with individuals and with couples. And often we get to do this work two on two where we'll do couples work. I think we're kind of unique in that sense that we're a husband and wife professional team. And so often we get to do two on two couples work and do a lot of intensive work with couples. Maybe around discovery or disclosure or building intimacy and those types of things where both parties kind of feel like they have an advocate in the process. And so I've been doing this work full-time myself about 5 years, Maggie quite a bit longer than that, but it's really fun.
That is so beautiful. I love, I love hearing a little bit about you guys and even the similarities that I can see in our stories. You know, my husband and I are counters up your desires. So it is, you're right. To your point, it's just such a gift and such a unique, uh, blessing to have to be able to do this work from experience, um, and with your spouse. And so I love hearing about that. So thanks for sharing that.
Yeah, yeah, you bet.
You know, uh, one of the, the challenges as we're entering into this topic of growing closer together and rebuilding that, that intimacy, but more specifically the physical relationship, right? Which that is closely or very related to this struggle or addiction, right? And so as you, as you guys have encountered couples coming in for help and they want to rebuild that, that sexual physical side of things, What are some mistakes that you've seen people do? And even if there's some examples of when things have gone wrong or poorly, so to speak.
Yeah, all of our clients are perfect, so no mistakes.
Yeah, right.
And we ourselves walked it.
Oh yeah, we did it so perfectly.
Gosh, I think some of the biggest mistakes we see are just people who can rush things too soon in the physical side, right?
Yeah.
Um, obviously when they come to us in this arena, there's been some dysfunction sexually, you know, somewhere. And sometimes we see people rush it too early and they're using, um, sex or sexual connection as a way to try to heal without having properly healed emotionally.
Yeah.
Sometimes we see people swing to the other end of the spectrum and stay stuck in avoidance of what hurt them. Um, and so sometimes it's like people really rush it, they go too fast. Sometimes they stay stuck too far apart. And I think the biggest thing that we encourage people when they come and they do their beginning work with us, like an intensive on a disclosure We talk a lot about how this is your surgery, right? But to really effectively heal after a big surgery, you need to do PT for quite a while, right? And you need to work and use the muscles. And so, um, we're just really big on making sure that people don't do their discovery, disclosure, maybe some individual therapy, but not going deeper in ongoing professional help. To really get deeper than just healing this wound, but actually learning how to incorporate a new healthy marriage together.
Yeah, I mean, I think a couple things I'll add on to there. I think in this space where sexuality and sex and unwanted sexual behaviors have been the thing that's impacted the relationship, it's very hard not to use that as also a metric, or the metric, for how are we doing. And I see so many couples, we see so many couples get off track in that space is like, you know, sex is what's got us here. So the metric of how we're doing is sex. And I think it's easy to take that approach and almost it can become as like sexuality is our fix for this. And, you know, really getting it a little backwards in that space that the focus— I think about it in terms of input and output, right? The focus of the input is emotional safety and emotional connection and growing that in a brand new way. And the output of that very often, not always, is healthier, more connected, and often more frequent sex that comes from that. But when we reverse that and are looking more as that, as, you know, focusing on the output and how are we doing there, and that being the thing that helps get the emotional connection as opposed to the other way around, it can really derail a lot of couples.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I can, I can also see In addition to that, I can also see, um, the pendulum swinging to the opposite as well of no sex, right? Or being weaponized against in terms of withholding, right? Uh, as a way to, well then, get you back in a sense. But it's, it's for a lot of people, it's not a conscious, so to speak. They're not that attuned to their emotional, um, they're not aware, right? To why, as to why they may be withholding. And so that's why you guys come in with your expertise to be able to help to navigate where the pendulum is at and have better understanding and competency on why it's important to take time for your healing. Deep, deep healing in order to incorporate that.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think so much of addiction in this arena or compulsive behavior is focused on quantity.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah. Right. And we are so big on like, quantity might not be the thing, it might be quality that is far more important in the arena of sexual intimacy.
Yeah.
And I'll just add one more, like, analogy here. I'm a, I'm a learner that the way I'm wired, I, I can really learn a lot from analogies that make sense to me. And I think in this, this space, one of the analogies I think about a lot is the analogy of, of an earthquake, right? And, and I think literally and metaphorically, earthquakes happen really sudden sudden, you know, they happen in a moment, right? But the reality is they are so far from sudden, right? It is the slow, gradual shift of things going on under the surface, fault lines and tension moving under the surface that causes this thing. And I think if we think about it in that terms, in those terms related to this question, I think one of the ways we can really get off track is to just run back to the structure that was there, you know, regardless of how unsafe it may be, regardless of, you know, if we have a house that survives an earthquake, it wouldn't be wise just to run back in and be like, okay, this is the structure, we got to get back to this as soon as normal living the normal way. Often it takes a complete rebuild, right, of tearing that down because it's unsafe and really building a new structure on the back end of that. And I think often that's That analogy fits really well specifically in the space of couples healing, but more specifically sexuality.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was, that was one of the mistakes I feel like I've seen is couples that are looking to just get back to the way things were. Like, we've got to deal with this problem. Yes, it's an issue, but we're just trying to get back to what's normal without realizing how much the addictive behavior has impacted what they defined as normal. And that in some ways was like a poison pill that was undergirding a lot of their thoughts and behaviors and emotions but because they had defined it as normal for so long, they just want to kind of get back to that stability. And I know that was very much my challenge because I thought of, you know, my marriage life as being here and then this totally separate thing because, you know, it started as a teenager long before I met my wife. I was like, yeah, I've got these addictive issues with pornography, but that's not related to my marriage. I mean, I knew it hurt my wife, but I in my mind thought that's not related to our marital physical intimacy. Those are totally different. And it took a while to see like, oh, there were ways of thinking and believing and selfishness and all of this that I should not have been trying to get back to normal. I should have really been hopeful that we're gonna build something new and better and more meaningful rather than just how can we get back to our normal? So I see that and I saw it in my own story. I think the other thing I would just throw out is this is very much an area where not one size fits all because the number of years you've been married, the timing of when disclosure happened, how long it took, into the marriage, your age, season of life, what other traumas might be there, what traumas might be in your story. Like, all of those things could impact how quickly a couple feels comfortable mutually re-engaging in physical intimacy. And for some, for various factors, it can happen, I think, fairly quickly with, you know, appropriate— we want it to be mutual, not just one or the other trying to press for it. But for some, it can happen fairly quickly, and for some, it's a very, very long process. And one of those is not right and the other wrong. Both are probably right for that couple and what they're experiencing. And so I, I hope that's something that listeners will take out of this, that your story is your story and the way you reintegrate physically will be your way with— but I hope what they'll also hear is with the help of some wisdom, some guidance that really can help you think through how are we re-engaging physically.
So good. Yeah, we didn't even hit on that, but I think comparison is can be really dangerous in this space too, right? Whether it be with somebody else who's been through the journey or a resource out there, right? It's like, I'm not lining up to that, or we're not living up to that, so something must be wrong. I think you bring up an awesome point.
Well, they did it this way, so what's wrong with you? You know, that's, that's never going to be helpful.
Absolutely.
Uh, so let's look at the flip side. You know, we want to understand what are wrong ways to do it, but let's also look at what are some of the things you've seen people do, or the common traits that when you feel like, man, a couple's— they're really figuring this out well. What would you say are some of those common traits among couples who rebuild this area well?
Yeah, I, I think that first and foremost, people who do well with this learn how to be emotionally safe people. Right. It's like the most vulnerable part of you to open up sexually. Sexually and spiritually are like the two most vulnerable types of intimacy. And it's really, really hard to do that when we haven't, um, developed really deep emotional intimacy and learned how to just be really safe for each other. So I think that the people we see who do this, um, they're emotionally intelligent. They've done work to become that. They've continued to do ongoing work on themselves, like outside of just healing the addictive piece. But we see that, um, at least especially in our own story, we had to do our marriage work, we had to do our own trauma work, we had to do family of origin work, um, we had to learn to redate and re— like, learn each other and rebuild a completely new marriage. And, um, with that, I think that the sexual intimacy piece can become the icing on top of the cake, where what we didn't know before, at least I didn't know, is that pre-that, um, sex was the cake, right? And, and it, it wasn't satisfying because there was no icing. And so we're, uh, we had to really learn how to do the deeper ongoing work. And I would say even 10 years in, we got a resource that was like, wow, this changed and opened up more conversations on healthy sex and our relationship. So I think like it's always still evolving too, right? As you go to different seasons in life. Yes. Um, it was easier when the kids went to bed at 7. It's harder when they're teenagers and they're always there.
They're up later than you are.
Yeah, right.
Like, there will be different seasons, but it's just an evolving— it's not— so the people who shift into this journey as a journey, not like a one-time mountain peak, are the ones who seem to be more long-term satisfied in their relationships sexually.
Yeah, so good. I mean, Maggie nailed it. I think the couples that we see that have a lot of success here prioritize emotional connection over physical connection, right? They prioritize emotional safety. And that is the priority. And it kind of goes back to the input-output thing that I was talking about. Yeah, I think, and I think maybe another thing that jumps out, and often this is for guys, not always, but often, it's really working, doing some work to separate your worth from the physical connection piece.
Yeah.
I mean, I think about back to, you know, one of Patrick Carnes' 4 core beliefs of an addict or somebody that's struggling with unwanted sexuality is sex is my greatest need, right? And often, I know sometimes when I heard that early in recovery, I was like, ah, that's not, that's not, I don't feel that way, right? But I was living my life in such a way that I kind of did believe that. And that can often show up and come out, right, when sex isn't happening in a relationship, or we're not back there, we're not growing in that space to the, to the place that we want to ultimately be, it can come back to be like, wow, I mean, my, my worth isn't there. If my wife doesn't want me in this way, or we're not engaging in this way. Or if we're not, if I get rejected, that, that's, you know, something to do with me. And that takes a lot of work to work through. So I think those are a couple of pieces that really jump out for me on this topic.
Yeah, yeah.
To just throw another one in real quick, again, from my own story, I think when couples do this well, they talk about it.
Yes.
And that might sound really basic, but I am amazed at how many men in group that, as we bring this up, like, they don't know how to talk about sex with their wife. You know, it's like you're married to her. It was like no one taught them the language. And we grew up in cultures like, hey, save yourself for marriage. And then once you get married, you say, you do, God just blesses it, and you go and you figure out great sex. But somehow we think we're going to figure it out and not actually talk about it. And so for us in recovery, it was learning to actually ask, like, what do you enjoy? What do you not enjoy? What makes you feel valued? What makes you feel disrespected? What makes you feel like I'm being selfish? What makes you concerned that maybe it's part of an addictive pattern? What— and we're— and we would often in those conversations say, how is it that we're in year 11 of marriage and these are the first times we've talked about some of this? Right? Like, so I think if you can learn to talk about it and ask the questions like, hey, obviously we've been through some hard things. What are things that when I do, it makes you feel safe and affirmed? And what are things I do that make you question if I'm in it for you or if it's just about my old wants and desires? So learning to talk about it is a big piece of this.
Yeah, which absolutely agree. I mean, the, the, the more you can communicate, the easier it'll get to be able to, to share where you're at, where your desires or expectations. Your needs are. Um, and the more you'll be able then to, um, be honest about whether you want more physical intimacy or less, or just kind of where you're at. So, and I'm just thinking about the spouse, uh, that may be wanting more physical, uh, intimacy, sexual intimacy, but it's not happening. So what encouragement would you guys give to that person to create the environment or the relational, like, set them up for, for this physical part of things to be included or initiated or that they occur?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm noticing a theme in my mind as you're asking all these questions, and I think that's a a reminder how important it is. But the safety that's pressure-free goes a long way in this space. And I think we got to be careful of— obviously, as I say that, right, it's not used manipulatively, right? Of like, well, you provided safety, so that's it. That's not safety. But pressure, you know, pressure-free, being able to say this like, hey, let's just— let's have more conversation about this without any expectation. Is such a helpful piece of, you know, being able to grow in this. We need a lot of safety around this topic because it's scary. It's scary for everybody involved in their own ways, whether we can admit it or not. It's very vulnerable. And so I think that, that's a big piece, really. Some major focus on non-sexual physical touch is so key. And, you know, we talked to a lot of clients about just How can we work? I mean, when something— when a couple comes in to us and is like, man, we're stuck sexually, it's— as we're assessing other things, it's one of our first questions. How's non-sexual physical touch going in your relationship, right? Is it— are we having a focus on that? And maybe we need a period of time when sex is off the table. We're going to start maybe building the foundation through non-sexual physical touch. So I think that's a big piece. And I think just a reminder, for maybe the higher desire partner out there who has a higher desire in this space than their partner. Like, your desire doesn't have to be on hold, you know, it doesn't have to be like squashed in order to do this well. I think it— think about it like channeling, you know. I think desire can really be channeled to reconnection in other ways and learning to find satisfaction and enjoyment of you know, holding each other, or, you know, snuggles, or non-sexual physical touch. That provides something. And it doesn't have to be this, like, you know, getting nothing unless I'm getting sex. That can be rechanneled and relearned in other ways too. So those are a couple things that come to mind for me.
I think that we just have to normalize in every relationship, even where there's not been unwanted sexual behaviors or hurt, is the fact that there is likely always going to be a marriage where there's different levels of desire. In the same way that we have different preferences on what food we want to eat or when we feel hungry or not hungry. And I actually joke about this with clients a lot, like, why is it that my husband can ask me, do you want to go get Mexican? And I can be like, not really in the mood, right? And it's no problem. We just adjust and go find something else to eat. It's not like he's like, well, fine, then I'm gonna go eat by myself. Without you, right? Like, no, we just— we don't take it as personally. But if it's like, how you feeling? And there's a response of like, yeah, I'm not really feeling it, that it's not gonna hit tonight for me, no thanks, um, that that can be such a personalized hurt and attack. And I think that that's probably a sign too of the need for deeper work for that person who feels So, um, hurt by that, I've, I've learned in my own life ways to soften that blow of no by giving a little bit more, um, you know, it's been a busy day, like more of my reasoning too. So it's just not left to no, I don't want you, but a little bit more understanding. And when there's a decline we usually try hard to lean into. Like, I'm not feeling that, but how about we sit here and have some face-to-face connection? Or how would, um, like a little massage feel, right? And so what are other ways we can connect and feel love that don't have to be just about sexual intimacy? Absolutely.
I love that.
Yeah, I think in this area, it's come up throughout the series that we're doing, that in general, and not, not always, but there are generalities that I think we've all seen, that if both individuals are doing their work and doing it well, the struggler or addict will feel a sense of growth, freedom, excitement sooner than the betrayed spouse will feel free of the pain. And that's natural. That's normal. Working through pain and trauma is slower than changing unwanted behaviors. And so the guy— and not always, but generally it's, you know, the guy in this case is like, I've had two great months. I've never been healthier. Why are you still not interested in me? It's like, well, because pain and trauma is a different growth curve. And I think if we're in a healthy relationship, well, if we're working towards a healthy relationship and safety is growing, that's one of the things as spouses we're both looking at. How can I move towards the other? Not in a way that violates my boundaries or what I need. But if I'm the one who's further out ahead, it's loving to say, how do I move towards my spouse's pain? How do I be aware of their needs to, to, to embrace their trauma and be present with them in it? That's love. And for the other spouse, as they're developing safety, they can begin asking the question, how do I move towards their desire for more physical connection Even if I'm not 100% there, maybe I'm now feeling 50% of the way and I can move in their direction. And I think if we're both open to that and we're patient with one another, we can find success. But it is when the one who's feeling more freedom and excitement, if they begin to point back at the other like, well, now you're the problem, right? Yeah. Again, from some personal experience, I can testify that will only make things worse. That will only produce the opposite effect of what you're looking for. So learn to be present.
Yeah, what's wrong with you is you don't want Mexican food tonight.
Yeah, right?
How's that gonna help? So one of the dynamics though, and that's kind of what we're alluding to here, there may be some sense of like, you know, hey, I'm ready, why are you not? And maybe for that spouse who's experienced more pain and trauma, there's areas where they feel unsafe, maybe they feel unsure. About renewing some of those aspects. I mean, and it might be, okay, we're having some physical intimacy, but there's aspects of it that, that haven't come back, or that, that I'm hesitant to. How can we communicate that to our spouse in a way that produces good conversation and good results versus kind of what we've been joking about, creating anger, frustration? It feels personal. It's like, it feels like rejection. So how could that spouse who's uncomfortable share that in a way that could create healthy dialogue?
Having professional help is really helpful in some of those conversations because they are so sensitive. So a non-biased third party who's, I think, betrayal trauma trained and aware, as well as there's, you know, lots of different trainings around healthy sexuality. So I think having the right helper that won't— I've certainly seen untrained helpers not understand the betrayal piece, or even pastors who mean well but just don't get the trauma attached to the sexual healing piece. And so I do think that like the right helper is important. Um, I think that we have to get really good at communication first, and I statements I, I gotta own, hey, I might feel this way, right? Like, if, if I'm asked, hey, do you want a massage? And if, if I'm gonna decline that because of an, you know, like, I, I need to work to be like, I'm afraid that if I say yes, that you'll only give me a 3-minute massage before you move on to something else that I'm not wanting, right? Rather than just saying like, well, you— will you do this? Or you do that? Or, um, so I just think like I statements do really help in the communication of owning our own feelings. I really like using the phrase what I'm telling myself, because that's good. What I'm telling myself is you might do this, or what I'm telling myself is you just want me for for sex or whatever lies, that gives a little bit of acknowledgement. I think that that's the story I have. And sometimes I'll even say, I know here that that is not true, but in my heart, like in my body, I've got a different feeling going on that's, that's causing me some, some disconnection here.
Yeah. And on the other side of that, I mean, it's so helpful to hear that statement Right? Because I, if that story she's telling herself and I don't want her to feel that way, I want to attune to that. I want to help with that versus, I mean, we all know that the you statements are good fight starters, right? Because here we go. Well, you, well, you, and we're going back and forth now. And so I think I agree with Maggie. I think I statements are a really big piece of that. We talk a lot about just the importance of healthy communication and assertive communication.
Right?
So I mean, if I put it on a scale, right, we got passive over here and we got aggressive over here, and assertive is right in the middle. Sometimes it takes time and space and our own work to be able to stay in that window of assertiveness. And I see that go wrong a lot where we may talk in I statements, but we do it in a way when we're out of our window of tolerance or we're so triggered. And so being able to even take some time to be like, okay, what, what am I feeling? What do I want? So then we can have a nice calm conversation about Hey, I feel this, or I want this, or I desire this, or I need this. Um, often that's received so much differently, and it takes a lot of work with the clients we work with to nail that down once our emotions get involved.
I think early on too, a really great practice around sexual intimacy is checking in like a day afterwards, or, oh, like, hey, what was that like for you, right? What did that like What did— like, not just like at first that might be triggering for, um, the betrayed partner if they are afraid that their hypersexual, um, partner in the past, like, that might be triggering. But being able to sit in and assess, like, was that healthy for me? Did I have any kind of guilt or shame? Early on, I really struggled with visual triggers in my mind, right? And there would be sometimes afterwards I would even be tearful, um, right? And it's like, that's so painful. And yet it was part of the healing process. So it's not always going to be this like really gorgeous thing. It's not always going to be, um, really like a volcanic explosion. Right? There's some times that it was like, yeah, that wasn't so great for me, where while it might be great for the other person— like, all of this is so normal in any relationship. But the beauty of like the brokenness we go through to get to the healing recovery is that we should learn how to talk and deal with these really hard— um, like, we've learned to deal with our emotions. So he can handle it if I say, uh, yeah, yesterday was just like a 5, right? Or, and here's why. But then it gives us so much more information about the next time, right? That even like, um, afterwards you just rolled over and went to bed, and I, I, I just felt so alone and so used. I went to bed feeling sad, like, oh, let's never repeat that. Yeah, we would never know that if we aren't encouraging check-ins and talking about it and Um, what, what we liked, what we didn't like, why.
Yeah, I, I love that. Um, it's so true. It's so— I, I feel like for most of our audience, they will be able to relate. Now, what you're sharing, um, is this after the couple has already impl— has gotten help and has been practicing their new tools, new communications? Because to your point, Nick, you were sharing that a lot of your guys, that group in the group have shared that they don't talk about sex with their wife, which is the case for many couples, right? They don't know how to talk about sex. And so I love that what you're sharing is exactly what we should be doing, right? But then how, how can we get there? How can we do this in a safe, organic way that we can have these conversations and not it not having them turn into this big disproportionate triggering moment, if you will?
Yeah, I mean, I think I'll start again doubling back to what Nick said a minute ago, right? That every, every situation is a little bit unique and different. And that's why, again, the power of somebody that's trained in this process to be able to help assess and talk through what's a great order of operations to work on things and, and what's needed. And, you know, sometimes after a couple comes in and we're dealing in the crisis, right, of disclosure, and the pain of discovery and working through that, often that's not the time, right, to be able to dive into many of these things. And so sometimes there's that, you know, a helpful celibacy period to have that reset for, for both individuals, but as a couple to, to be able to begin working on some of these things. And so I think the timeframe, it's definitely not a one-size-fits-all approach as far as where this plays in. In the relationship. But, you know, often this is, you know, post doing the, the surgery, right, the disclosure. And then we're working to build intimacy. And I think there's, you know, widely regarded 7 or 8 big types of intimacy. There's, you know, emotional and verbal and physical and experiential and intellectual. And sexual is a piece of that, you know, not sexual physical is a piece of that, but sexual is too. So kind of all falls into that intimacy building work. And, you know, working with a professional can really help you determine not just early on, we need somebody to get out of this crisis, but in an ongoing way within the first year and 2 years. Yeah, really trying to assess where we go from here.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that it's, it's, there's like a map almost that, that a good professional team could help map out for each couple. The stages of recovery. We have general stages of recovery, but I know in the work that we do with couples, um, we try really hard to make these conversations part of the coupleship, where a lot of people do— I'm going to define my recovery and do it on my own, with my group, with my— right? We try really hard to integrate, yes, your recovery, but let's, in our, like, time together and intensives, really work to share and start these, like, hard conversations around, um, what's okay, what's not okay, and talking about some of the things that, quite frankly, sadly, part of why things probably went dysfunctional is we never— like you said, Nick, 10 years into marriage and we're just starting to talk about these things that we actually should have talked about in dating, or for sure engagement. Like, how do we feel about sexual release? Or how do we feel about, you know, taking care of yourself versus only with each other? Like, the premarital, um, counseling that most people are getting turns out were things we never actually thought about— how we're— how we were going to spend our money, what kind of church we were going to go to, and how many kids we were going to have. Like, that was the topic of premarital, premarital counseling for us. And, um, we should be having these bigger other conversations around these hard topics. It's like we're scared to because then you might get excited and want to go do that and not live out God's purpose for your life. So we don't talk about it. Um, I think we got to know that it's awkward, it's hard, but we've got to normalize And the more we got used to it, um, the easier it gets. This is, you know, out of Rodney and Tracy's book about talking to your kids about sex. The same is true in marriage. If you create a ton of 60-second conversations, it gets easier. This shouldn't just be one 60-minute conversation. It should be a pretty regular part of our life together and talking about it. And so We start that pretty early on in the recovery period, even, um, boundaries around it, open communication with it, stuff like that. But everyone's story is so different on when they're ready that we try really hard not to caveat one, here's what it should be, because it's so different for each person.
Meet them where they're at. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, a couple of principles come to mind for me. Number one is that we discover these things in the midst of trying to re-engage sexually. And so if in the midst of rejection, or I, I started something and they got angry and shut down, like, in the midst of that, that hurt or confusion is not the time for the conversation, nor is it right before you're hoping to have that intimacy, because then there is that expectation of, hey, we're going to talk about this, and now there's some pressure that, like, okay, we're Okay, well, let's go have sex. So I think there, there needs to be some awareness of the right time and place. And then in those conversations, even if someone's gotten premarital counsel, it's usually more about the what, not the why. Like, do we do this? Do we not do that? Versus when you're walking through recovery, what really helped me in hearing from my wife is when she would say, here's something I'm not ready for, because and then she would connect it to our story or the pain I'd caused. You know, she says, because that makes me fearful you're comparing me to images you used to see. It was like, oh, okay, I hadn't thought about that. Or because I was wondering if this is something you were only doing, um, because of unhealthy expectations. And that created— and some of those, it was fair. I was like, wow, yeah, let me think about that. Is that actually what I want for us, or is that what the world has taught me? And other times, like, oh no, that is not What's motivating you? Here's what's motivating me. Like, oh, so to hear from each other on the why question was much better than just, you know, the physical act of are we okay with this act or not? Are we okay with this level of touch or not? I mean, that has some value, but if you don't get to the why question beneath it, you're going to miss one another's hearts and that opportunity for emotional connection. And then the last thing that we have found is helpful in talking about this is to use resources that are not creating an expectation. Because if I come to my wife with a list of questions that I've come up with, I've hurt her a lot in the past. And so there's a little bit of guardedness of like, where are you going with this? What are you trying to get from me? Am I, am I getting manipulated here? And, and I get that in our past I had earned that. And so when we were able to use things like, um, John Gottman is a relationship expert out there, and he has an app called Cardex, Gottman Cardex. That depending on the level of conversation you want to have, just— it could be fun relational topics all the way to fairly intimate sexual questions. What was good about those is neither of us had to fear like, why are you asking me that question? It was like, this is the next question in the deck. You know, what is something we do that makes you feel valued and loved? And we would both take a turn and answer. And then maybe the next one would be more, you know, what is— what is a sexual activity that you most enjoy? And it wasn't, oh, he's trying to get something from me. It was just, oh, we're both just learning to talk about something we don't know how to talk about very well. So there are other apps and tools out there like that. And Gottman is not a Christian resource, but the great thing, you know, those cards, there's a card you don't like, you just skip it. And that's actually in the rules. It says if either partner is uncomfortable with one of the questions, just skip to the next one and you'll find questions that create conversations. Some of them are like, I hadn't even thought to ever ask that question. That's really helpful. So those are a couple of things that have been helpful in our journey of asking better questions and having better conversations.
You know, I love— we love these questions. My husband and I do them. We do Table Topics, the Gottman. We've done all of them. And one of the beautiful things about it is that maybe you start with, say, okay, let's just go through 3 questions. We don't have to spend all night doing this, right? Because there, there could be a little bit of the tension of what's the expectation? We're gonna go through the whole deck, right? Maybe there is a little bit of that for one of the, of the two. But, um, it ha— it has happened a lot that maybe we go through one or two, uh, questions and an hour goes by and next thing you know, it's like, how did we end up— did we end up talking about this? We started with this other question. Next thing you know, we've been hanging out and not only maybe had, had it to do— did it have to do with a sexual, uh, conversa— question, but at the end of the conversation, we now feel emotionally intimate, close, which is also part of what's gonna be, you know, what's gonna make the sex side of things even more enjoyable. The icing to the cake, to your point, Maggie, right? It's, it's just beautiful. Not just— it's not just about being able to feel safe and open to talk about sex per se, but also knowing that, man, it's, it's more than that. It's that emotional, deeper connection that is just all one beautiful part of a relationship.
Yeah, I think so many people have to strip apart their sexuality and really figure out what they were taught, what they learned, what did their culture they grew up in teach them about that. Um, who's the— been the historical initiator? How do we change that? How do we make it pretty mutual? There's so many good resources out there on this topic, and a lot of them are researched. It blows my mind how many women, including myself pre-doing this work, don't even understand how their own body truly works. And, um, like, there's just a lot of work to do. And even understanding the science of our body, um, Emily Nagoski has written books and done tons of research on that. While not faith-based, still research-based content. Um, there's the, the Bear Caws have created the SRT, the Sexual Reintegration Therapy. Really good workbook for people who take a period of celibacy and now want to like reintegrate back. And it slowly works up from emotional intimacy into more erotic things. And they actually encourage in that not to let that lead to sexual intercourse that day. Let this just simmer, like, let's learn how to comfortable, um, together in a sensual way that is more about connection and less about the explosion at the end, right? And so it's like there's so many great resources out there. And of course, The Great Sex Rescue is one of my favorites to help kind of understand what was I taught on this and what does it look like if this is healthy. Um, there's just a lot of really good things out there. We have to take every bit of it with a little bit of a grain of this all and, and line it up with, does this cause me to violate any of my faith beliefs or views? Of course, before we take any of the advice. But there's so much learning that people don't know, and then there's just the general, like, what is my preference?
Yeah, right.
Yeah, Clifford and Joyce Penner, another great title out there, is a Christian couple that have done a lot of work around physical intimacy and connection, even the biological sides of it, to Christians who've had very little training think through from a biblical lens, what's my body made to do and how do I honor God and my spouse with it? So yeah, we'll list a lot of those in the show notes if people want to follow up on those recommendations. Uh, in line with that, this next question is, the reality is after disclosure and a recovery process, our physical intimacy may need to change compared to what it was like pre-discovery. So how do we shift our mindset and expectations so that we're open to a new way of relating physically and, and even believing that this might be better than we expect.
If our story is sexual brokenness, then there's no way around— even though I wasn't aware of how much sexual brokenness was in my marriage, there's no way around the fact that our sex was dysfunctional, right? And so like, we just have to just know that, um, and not like kind of we said earlier, not return to the old way, but completely learn to create and craft a new way forward. We might bring some of the best parts of that into our new relationship. We might leave behind some of the worst parts of that. Um, but so I mean, there's just no way around the recovery process means creating kind of new relationship sexually with each other that is different. Um, we talk a lot about like the things that you should expect in good recovery, right? Presence, being present in it, maybe eye contact, maybe, um, of course we've already talked about the importance of like the healthy emotional connection, but focusing on other things. And just like, there's just so many tips on things we can try to make it feel like it is a different, um, feeling. That's the one thing I think that people who do recovery often come back to us and say, it's so different, right? That part, it's so different. And they can like, sometimes it's hard to even put to words what is so different, but it feels different when you're both present emotionally and physically and leaned into the experience.
Yeah, I don't, I don't have a lot to add to that because you, you killed it. I mean, I think those are all the really important pieces. I mean, I, again, I, to what Maggie said, if porn use has been a part of your story, there is more distortion on how you view sex than you realize. And that was part of my story for so long. And, and I'm still realizing, you know, 13, almost 14 years into recovery, just the false beliefs that I thought were just real and true, where that had shifted over time. And so a lot of education to learn, a lot of continued individual work. Yeah, our all pieces to help shift that. And, and back to kind of the earthquake analogy, right? Building something completely, yeah, new and different after that, and not just trying to get back to the way things were.
Yeah, I think we have to challenge societal stories at times too. I remember, um, like feeling like you— like early on in marriage, we were taught, like, in our faith environment. Like, wives don't ever withhold from their husbands and things like that, right? And I remember in recovery being at one point like, Nate, you gaslit me to think that. And he honestly was like, I think that society gaslit me to believe that I deserved that, right?
Healthy blame shifting right there.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's blame shifting or there's a healthy realization, like I didn't do that on purpose. Like, that's what I thought, right? And that maybe came from dysfunctional sources.
Goodness.
Yeah.
Yeah. And so I think there's, there's just so much work to do to, like, rip apart what we thought and what we believed in, what we had, and try to healthily rebuild back.
Yeah.
Yeah. That's— we felt like we had learned how to have physical intimacy. We knew how to have sex physically. But in recovery, when it became true, deeper emotional connection at a lot of levels, it was different. Now, the physical act itself wasn't that different, but somehow the relationship felt night and day different, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And yet then there's also some couples that maybe feel stuck, just simply stuck, uh, and, you know, let's think of a couple that maybe it's been in recovery for 3 to 4 years and they are not having sex. Um, what comes to mind for you guys to offer What guidance would you give them, uh, in that situation for those that may be in that situation?
I think it would start with like a really thorough examination of how safe do they really feel emotionally. Um, how do— is there trauma that's not been really fully dealt with here?
Yes.
Um, do they have any big fears or concerns with whole— like the keeping them stuck, that maybe we need to, um, start challenging some of our thoughts or some of our beliefs that, um, betrayal trauma could have created. Um, or even addiction recovery. I've seen that on the male— like, on the addict side as well, the fear of like, if I do this and like it, what might happen? Oh yeah, right. And so you can see kind of both sides, the need to challenge some of that. So I think professionally, um, that many years past, there's a lot to explore and just make sure— are we sure? Are we sure? Then I usually would tell people maybe it's worth like an actual medical evaluation and check all of our levels, because there can be other things at play that could make this difficult or, um, or hard, uh, and there's just really no good way around it. If none of that— there's nothing that comes up in more work to do around those things. I don't love Mexican food, but if my husband loves it, once in a while we might have to meet in the middle somewhere and find some ways to— I would never push someone to that prematurely, and I would never push someone to like, um, go against what their body and mind and heart and soul is feeling. But if you want that, then sometimes we do kind of have to nudge ourselves back into, um, like putting our toe in the water and trying things that maybe not full sexual intercourse, but maybe some other tiptoed things in sensuality like, like that workbook we had talked, talked about that kind of brings you more and more and more into a comfort with being sensual with each other and see if that doesn't help.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I would have probably answered pretty similarly in regards to, to this question because I, I do love how there are so many different layers that could be, uh, could be behind this, right? It's not just, oh, if you're simply stuck, then that just means you just haven't done the work. I mean, there's so much that could be behind this, right? And, and oftentimes we, when we've had couples that have had a difficult time and it has gotten to that, to that question or to that, uh, comment of, we're not doctors, but maybe, maybe go get checked out. Maybe just go make sure that physically you both are okay. Um, because that is also one of those many possibilities, but coming at it as objectively as possible as you can.
Yeah. And I think you said it well, that there's kind of that triangle of relationship that at the bottom is trust and then there's safety. And we've got to address those first. I mean, is there trust rebuilt in the relationship? And they're like, no. Well, work that. Then that still needs work, even if it's been 3, 4, or 5 years. But like, yeah, I trust him. We trust each other. Okay. Do you feel safe? Yes. Then as you're getting into some of those upper levels, it's like I think there are points at which we need, out of love, as I said earlier, like to move towards one another. And that, that's both of us. That doesn't just mean that the one spouse should be moving towards physicality with the other. It means both spouses say, what are their needs and how am I in love moving towards meeting their needs? Because that is a part of our self-giving, other-centered love that we're taught in Christ. But of course, never in violation of safety and trust. But if those are really starting to function, we've got to ask some questions of why am I not feeling comfortable moving towards something that my spouse values? And I think both of us can ask that question. So, uh, Nate and Maggie, this has been a great conversation. I feel like in some ways we've just scratched the surface on things that are really, really deep questions. I think that'd be encouragement to listeners of like, if this is an area you're really finding a lot of challenges and hurdles in, it's a and you should consider professional counseling, finding a CSAT like Maggie and Nate, or working with Pure Desire to say, we need some help in this area because it's so personal, it can be so raw. And if you're stuck there, you don't have to walk through this alone. So, Nate and Maggie, any final advice you'd like to give our audience on rebuilding our physical relationship after betrayal?
I don't know if it's advice as much as just hope. I mean, we personally have been stuck so many times, you know, and, and had conversations that felt like they were the same conversations in this bucket of sexuality as we're trying to, you know, have that tension to push and build something new. And I just want to just offer some hope, or, and again, both professionally, we've seen that a lot with clients, but there's hope to rebuild something new on the other side. That's, that's not just survival. And it's not just Hey, we're just, you know, capped at this space forever because of things. But there's hope that like something new can be built with, you know, intimacy and safety at the foundation that includes physicality that is completely different and more beautiful and more healthy and more holistic and more exciting and more erotic than it ever— I could have ever dreamed up pre-recovery. Right. And so, you know, I think we've experienced that personally. You know, it's an honor to kind of help other couples walk to that. But it's hard. It's a hard road. And so just maybe just want to say, hey, it's— if you're in a hard space, that totally makes sense because there's a lot of layers to this conversation as we've talked about. But, but don't stop and don't just settle like, this must be what it's like, because there's really something beautiful on the other side if you guys can both work at it.
Yeah, I would say that you have to just know it's going to be hard and awkward Um, 13 and a half years in, it's probably the slowest, hardest part of the healing journey is complete sexual wholeness, I think. Um, but I would just say like, it's worth it. It's really worth doing the work to experience like this gift of sex that God gave us that we have really messed up here on Earth. And, um, it's, it's worth fighting for the experience that we can have in that together.
It's good.
Absolutely. Thank you guys so much for, for being here and offering your, your wisdom and expertise in this subject.
Yeah, love PD. It's been great. Thank you.
Yeah, and remind our audience, if they wanted to learn more about you or see what you do, how can they find, uh, Nate and Maggie Blaylock?
Yeah, Known Counseling Services, K-N-O-W-N, knowncounselingservices.com. Um, it's our website, and if you're interested in reaching out, yeah, top right you can just fill out the contact button and we'll be happy to get back to you and just have a chat, right, to see if, uh, if anything that we offer is a good fit for you. But you can find out more about us and our journey, uh, there on our website.
Yeah, awesome. Well, we're thankful for you guys and thankful for The reminder that rebuilding physical intimacy after betrayal requires patience, trust, and a lot of clear communication. So whether we're navigating fear, discomfort, unmet expectations, couples can create a safe space to explore connection while respecting boundaries. Successful restoration grows from honesty, empathy, and a willingness to embrace a new way of relating physically, one that may ultimately be deeper and more fulfilling than what we had before. And Nate and Maggie, thanks so much for painting that picture for us today.
Absolutely.
Thanks, guys.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And to you, our listener, thank you for joining us. If you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write a review, give us a like. All of these are ways that more people can come across this life-giving content at the moment perhaps they need it most. And if you want more information about Pure Desire groups resources, or counseling, visit us at PureDesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.
