Recognizing The Lies We Believe w/ Sam Jolman | Ep. 468

Hello there, good listener. I am your host Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 468, and here joining me as my co-host throughout this series is the John Begum. John, good to see you again.

I'm so glad to be back.

Yes. Well, we're neck deep in this series and I'm really enjoying it because we've been looking at the idea of the porn-proof life, how to build, build a shield or a guard against the need for pornography. So whether we're in recovery or not in need of it, just looking at what are those healthy principles that can keep us above the pull of things like pornography. And today's guest Sam Jolman. I know a real highlight for both of us, the author of the book The Sex Talk You Never Got, and he really did a great job of helping us dive into this topic.

Yeah, I totally agree. And this book was primarily addressed towards that of men, but I've recommended this book to so many women going, man, there are so many paradigm-kicking thoughts he offers regarding the goodness of the creation of sex, the goodness of our bodies, how we get to show up in the world, and how The end result of like healthy sexuality or living porn-free isn't just to like check the box of like, "I'm not watching porn," but it's to become alive. It's to become whole. It's to become so actively engaged and involved in the world around us that we get to participate in goodness. It's like, it's not just to get away from porn, it's to get alive to the rest of the world.

Yeah, and today's topic was all about recognizing those subtle lies that we believe, the shame messages that might tempt us to go back. And really, that's true for all of us, no matter what we struggle with. That there are places in our past that have spoken lies to us and they've maybe become so familiar that we do think they're true. And I think Sam gave us a bunch of new paradigms, like you said, John, some ways to think about this that I think truly could be life-changing. So we hope you enjoy it. We hope that you would consider sharing this series with a friend or a relative or someone around you that they don't even need to be struggling with pornography. That's why we're doing this series is just to look at what does a healthy way of living look like? Where we're living a pornproof life. And so that's what today's conversation is about. Sam Jolman, a bit more about him. He's a licensed professional counselor who specializes in men's issues, marriage counseling, and sexual abuse recovery. And I do think today's episode is equally applicable for women and men. In his 20 years of experience, he's walked with many people through a broad range of important personal and relational struggles. And you'll hear that all over his sharing today, that he's living this. He's not just an expert telling people what to do. And as we've mentioned already, he's the author of the book The Sex Talk You Never Got, one we would highly recommend. And so here now is part 4 of 5 in our series, The Porn Proof Life, with author Sam Jolman on Know Thyself: Recognizing the Lies We Believe. Mr. Sam Jolman, welcome back to the Pure Desire Podcast.

I can— John, thanks for having me. Been looking forward to this.

Yes, so have we. We're so glad to have you back on. For those that maybe missed your first conversation with us, we got to highlight your great book, The Sex Talk You Never Got. Is that, am I remembering right? I just off the cuff was saying your book title. We did a great podcast on that, but today we wanna dive into just kind of a more general conversation in our series here that we've been doing, "The Porn Proof Life," and understanding how key it is that we know ourselves and we know the lies that we're tempted to believe and how to speak truth over those instead. And so let's jump into it, Sam. I know in your work you emphasize the importance of engaging our own story of sexual formation And so for someone in particular who feels that their behavior is unwanted, but they don't recall like a major crisis or something that like created that, how can they begin to identify, how can they begin to identify the subtle traumas and the lies associated with those traumas that might be quietly shaping their sexuality?

Yeah, you know, I would start by saying we do have this idea, I think, that sexuality, our sexuality exists in this like ethereal realm. That it just sort of one day sort of descends down and awakens in us, and it exists in an untouchable realm. Yeah, kind of like a bulb. Right, and it gets clicked on and it sort of operates in your body and you have to learn how to manage it or wrestle with it, but that it's its own nature and it's its own thing, right, that's kind of untouched. And I would wanna say to start with, your sexuality has been living your life with you. Every step of the way. So it's not like one day it just sort of descends like a dove on you and is there, right? It's, it's been with you and will be with you your whole life, experiencing everything you've experienced. So to start with just understanding, it's, it's not somewhere else and then shows up. It's right here, um, and maybe not active, right, but it's there being impacted by everything we go through. Now, again, it doesn't— some people might say, well, I don't remember any, as you're saying, big T traumas. Like, there was no big— maybe I don't have any story of sexual harm or sexual abuse that I remember. So what do you mean it's impacted me? Well, I would start by saying most of us don't bury our pain because of pain. Most of us bury our pain because of shame. So, you know, probably the better question to ask is not, well, what, what are the painful moments of my life? Although that's helpful, but also to ask, what are some moments where I experienced shame, right? What were the moments of greatest shame? Because often those are actually the better paths into our stories of pain because Evil wants you to bury your pain, believing it's you. It was just you being perverted or messed up or weird or too needy or whatever the accusation is, right? Um, but you know, we don't— most people can handle pain if they're in the presence of kindness and love. What we can't handle is shame. That thread of rejection. So I would start there with saying, better question is, well, think about the stories of shame you hold that actually will lead you to stories of pain. Now, as far as like, well, I don't remember a story of overt molestation, let's say. Well, I thought of two men. Similar stories that have walked with me in counseling, uh, and I'm changing some details here on their behalf, but, um, you know, they both remembered stories of being boys and, um, playing in the tub with their genitalia. Now that's about as natural as being human, being curious about your own body, right? It's similar to, like, you know, being curious about your ears or your toes or. Right. Like how your body works.

That's just—

what is a belly button?

Yeah.

What is a belly button? Right. And both of them being shamed.

Yep.

By their parents. Don't touch yourself there. That's wrong. And then even threatened with discipline and punishment.

Wow. Yeah.

And both of these men have wept. With me about remembering that story. Now, again, we would say, well, that's not a story of sexual abuse. Well, no, not in the you were molested sense, right? But was that harm imprinted? And again, what I would say is imprinted with shame, right? That they were— both of them felt like something must be wrong with me if I'm curious about my body and touch my own genitalia. That must mean I'm inherently perverted.

Mm-hmm.

So again, it got buried as a story of shame. And when we began to unpack their stories and say, can you see that you were shamed in a moment of curiosity? Then it became access to their pain with tears. So, you know, maybe a little bit of guidance here would be to think in the categories. What's your story with your body?, right? Not just what's your story with your sexuality, but how was your body narrated to you, right? Was it narrated as dirty? Were things like your curiosity or your genitalia seen as negatives? I know some people who grew up in families where saying penis or vagina was like a swear word.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Most families.

Yes. And so, I mean, again, Just think of the shame that begins to cast on your own sexuality. Or think of your attachment story.

Yeah, right.

How were you loved? How were you given affection? I know men who were touch-starved, right? They don't remember any kind of loving affection, right? And so you think of then even just the language we use of touching yourself, right? Can you see how some of those more— again, we might say subtle forms of harm. They're not subtle in impact, but they may not pass like, well, oh, I never thought that that would have meant something. Or even just this, your story of romance and sexuality, obviously. But what was it like to be around your parents' marriage? Right? That's your first sex talk. Yeah, that's your romance. Like, what did it feel like to be in the room? Was there the COVID civil war? Did they embody loving affection? Did they enjoy each other, right? Or were they— or was the only passion your parents did was anger? But even that is, is a shaping of your sexuality, um, imprinting That's what I mean by your sexuality has been living your story with you this whole time.

Yeah, it makes me think— sorry to jump in, John. I know usually our rhythm is you the one who asks the question, the other guy answers, but I just keep hearing that quote by Dr. Gabor Maté that trauma is not what happens to us, trauma is what happens inside of us. And, and yes, traumatic things can happen to us, but what we carry with us is the internal message. You know, a quick overview of my story, you know, when I was 3 years old, my sisters would have been 4 and 1, and my mom would have had a newborn baby. And so even though I don't have a lot of memories of like being 3 and 4 years old, I know what I learned really early on in life is that I have to meet my own needs. Mom's busy, mom's tired, mom has a baby and a 1-year-old. I need to meet my own needs. And even when I would get in trouble and act up, and as I look back realizing probably just to be noticed and to be seen by my mom, what would happen then? I'd get sent to my room. And the message of like, when you're better 'You can come out.' Yeah, like those were literally the words my parents would use. Like, 'When you're better, you can come out.' And so the internal message that I think followed me into my sexuality was, 'No one will meet your needs. You have to meet them yourself.' And, and that really is a trauma lie of no one in this world, or even your Heavenly Father, won't meet your needs. Go take care of yourself. And then, you know, if that's the lie, pornography is a pretty easy thing to introduce to that, because in a very artificial way it met a whole bunch of needs for me as an 11, 12, 13, 14-year-old that was trying to figure out life and had this deep message of go fix it yourself. No one will meet your needs. Yes. And becoming aware of that is like, oh, that, that's been my pathway. Not just that I had all these hormones, like you said, suddenly landed on my shoulders.

Right.

Well said. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah.

And again, you know that I mean, what ache and pain you're describing in you know, that desire for attention in kid form being treated as wrong, right? Again, a message of shame.

Yeah, right.

Of like, that's bad in you when you want others to help you and, and meet your needs.

It also just makes me think of the shame narratives that our parents carry that then gets passed down, right? Like, you talk about how we're naming things playing with ourselves, touching with ourselves, or we can't say penis, we can't say vagina. I know in my own home it was like, are we wee wee? I'm like, I still have no idea what that even means. I really don't know where that came from. But what I knew inherently was that I couldn't say penis as if that word was bad. And that's not what my parents believe at all. But, you know, subconsciously, their own shame around the topic of sexuality or their own sexuality then gets passed down, and it's just shame from generation to generation. And I have a lot of honor for my parents, and I can name that with a level of honesty that says, and that wasn't super helpful. And now we get to rewrite a new narrative and a healthy script. Like, I'm currently engaged and getting to have conversations with my fiancée saying, man, I want to use the anatomical words, like breasts and boobs and penis and vagina and clitoris and all these things. Like, these are, these are our words. These are real anatomical words. We don't have to be afraid of them. And to the level in which we are comfortable naming these things as a piece of, a part of our body and good and to be protected and sacred, all of these things, it's complex. Of course, we then get to pass it on. And if we can pass on our comfortability and our naming of it well that will do a world of a difference for our kids.

It's funny because I find myself sitting over here thinking, well, you don't have to keep saying them. But that even reveals, like, that's my culture too, of even though I'm not who I was 15 years ago in addiction, there still is that echoes of like, yes, well, what are people going to think if we say that? And are we offending people? Like, we're talking about body parts, but a part of me still kind of goes, oh, that's dangerous.

Yeah.

And, and when that's our formation of sexuality, well No wonder unhealthy behaviors could develop.

Yeah, and same. That's just kind of the next question of like, so many of us were raised to think that our bodies and our sexuality were dangerous or something to be feared, which can contribute to the shame cycle. Be ashamed, be ashamed. You are shame, your body is shame, be ashamed. So the question is, how do we break out of the shame cycle? Like, if that's where we find ourselves, afraid of our sexuality and stuck in shame, how do we break out?

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think, um, just to honor this idea that the shame cycle is, you know, sin, shame, sin, shame, sin, shame, sin, shame, right? It's, it's that pull to hide, um, which we know is the cycle of addiction, right? And acting out is, I— there must be something wrong with me, and so I hide, which further isolates us. Leads us to acting out, right? That, that gets you stuck in that sin-shame cycle. Um, at some level, um, you know, I'd want to honor that shame is a form of fear at its heart. Um, shame is literally— puts the body in fight or flight. It's a stress response to run. So it— it— we, we actually can't handle shame very long, um, like half a second, and, and then we need to do something to escape it because it's so deadly. That feeling of exposure and rejection feels imminent. And so what do we do? We run, right? Like we're running from a bear, except we're the bear.

So we have to, you know, the bear's on our shoulders and going everywhere with us, right?

And so you have to find a way to get away from the parts of you yourself you think are bad. And so you— we tend to bury it in silence and secrets. Silence and secrets, right? And, and that becomes the double life. Um, and so how do you break it? Well, some, some degree of, um, you have to speak. You have to bring yourself vulnerably into relationships somewhere. And, and, you know, we may know that as well. Oh, you mean accountability? Well, I do in one part, but also then what you guys are naming, which is beginning to tell your story, right? Not just the story of your sin and your bad behavior, so to speak, but the story of your sexuality, the story of your trauma. What, what What is your shame story? Not just your sin story, um, meaning getting vulnerable with all of you. Uh, the other thing I'd want to name is, yes, we tend to equate, um, you know, anything that moves in us as bad, right? Like, anything sexual that I feel must be lust, and so I've got to shut it down. And I think one of the most important things you can do as well is Beginning to separate out arousal from lust or desire, right? That, that being okay with God made your body sexual and not everything that moves in you is inherently an act of lust. So being able to start to bless your body, it starts with curiosity, right? Like Oh, being curious in the tub about your penis is— that's okay. That's actually natural, right? So being able to bless arousal versus, um, you know, obviously confronting lust. Lust is something we participate in. It's something that we go with, right? And, and I think in the Christian culture, we've tended to like mush all that together. And just say, well, sexuality is just bad. And so anything that moves in me is bad. And I wouldn't say you need to be curious about your arousal. Oh, what's happening? I'm feeling sexual feelings. But not to just right away shut it down and say, oh my gosh, oh, that was— I must be having lust and impurity and I've got to shut it down. It just— I think that can contribute again to You know, we, we end up shutting down the body to try to kill off the flesh.

Yep, correct.

Uh, and, and we need to leave room for actually you have a body and it's okay that it responds to the world. Um, that's, that's not inherently sinful.

Yeah, same. It was 5 years ago, I was on a call with one of our co-workers, Rodney, and for anybody who's listened to the podcast for a length of time, they know who Rodney is. And he literally said to me, John, The next time you're aroused, I want you to thank God for the ability.

And I'm like, oh, what?

Like, I can't do that because I grew up believing— and even 5 years ago at the age of 23, I believed that all of my sexuality outside of the context of marriage was lust, evil, and not to be trusted. And Rodney's saying, that's a, that's a good part of you, right? What we do with it can be destructive or not destructive. He's like, so name it. Thank God for the ability. Your body's good. And then steward it wisely. I was like, oh, the paradigm, you know, all of me is like shaking on this sidewalk because I'm taking this phone call in Portland. I'm like, I can't handle this.

I've been speaking at some Christian colleges lately, and I just find myself thinking a lot about Genesis 3 and the reality that when Adam and Eve were in the garden and the enemy was tempting them. They were in a perfectly created world, free of sin before the fall, and they had a strong desire to reach out and take hold of something that God had said was not good for them. Even though you pointed out in another episode, like, they had all the trees of the garden, but that one that God had said, "This is not good for you," they had this desire to possess it. And I'm like, wait a minute, I would call that desire sin. I'd call that wrong. I'd call that bad. But this was happening before sin and the fall. So something in our desire to have, to grab, to even to love, that capacity for lust is actually built into God's created order. And it messes with my mind a little bit to think, well, wait a minute, then it has a good function in me. It has a good purpose. And it's not just the lust of the flesh to, you know, lust after a woman, that maybe it's about that strong desire to connect, to have belonging, to have ownership in this world, to be responsible for things, and it can lead me even to want and desire things that aren't mine to have or to hold. But that isn't, the desire isn't sinful. And it's just like, that's such a different way than how we were brought up. And, you know, Sam, you've already mentioned some of them, but what are others? In this question, I wanna ask like, what are some other distorted truths from our upbringing that both men and women might be trapped in that are keeping them just stuck in this behave, not behave, or sin, don't sin, kind of mindset?

Yeah, you know, at some level I'd want to invite— there's a uniqueness to all of our shame, and it's unique to our story. So Satan wants to accuse you with lies that will be believable, right? So he's going to try to sell you something that, that, that is going to be convincing in your story. And, and so, you know, Nick, as you named, like, I've got to take care of my needs on my own, right? That fit a story. So I want to start with, you know, being curious about your own personal shame invitations. Um, as Curt Thompson writes, you know, you could just, you know, in a day write down all the, the moments that you feel an invitation to go to shame and just write down what's the sentence And he says, you'll pretty quickly see the pattern you're being invited to. But as a culture, right, in the church, um, are there unique ones that we've, we've messed up, so to speak? Um, and I, you know, two of them come to mind. I think the one for men is that, you know, you know, lust is just a given. You're just gonna struggle You're going to struggle your whole life and you're just going to really be kind of stuck. Lust is every man's battle.

Every man's battle.

It's out of your control, essentially. It almost oversexualizes men from the word go. It just says, well, this is what you're going to struggle with and you're just going to have to fight it the rest of your life. And I think it just sets men up to believe, I guess I'm just a monster. Not, as I would say, a lover. Not actually— you're designed for deep, meaningful connection and relationship and sexual pleasure, and you can find a way towards that. That's your original glory, right? But instead, for men to believe, well, my sexuality is just kind of monstrous.

Yeah.

For women, I think it's the reverse, which was, your body incites lust. You need to be modest, right? You need to wear the t-shirt over your bathing suit in the youth group outing because you don't want to cause men to stumble. And really putting the weight of that, I mean, the inherently shaming aspect to like what you incite is lust versus your body is the artwork of God. It was designed gloriously. Yeah, right. And again, modesty in the name of kind of veiling glory and what you want to— how you want to hold the weight of your beauty and glory, but not as it's it's going to incite lust. In other words, the blessing of— actually, you can incite goodness, right? That message not being very present, if at all. So I think for women, the having to feel like they're the brakes, right? They're the one that needs to prevent men and guard men's hearts, um, and all that pressure on their own sexuality then to always be on guard. Yeah. It's such a fear-based approach, I would say.

I love what you said at the beginning there, that Satan's going to speak lies that are convincing. Like, you know, he's not going to come along and try to convince me that you're a bear or you're an animal. So I'm like, well, I know it's not true. It's like, well, that's dumb. Why would I listen to that? But if he says, you know, if you don't perform well enough, people reject you.

Mm-hmm.

There's a little part of me that goes, you know what, I think you're right, because I have seen times when I didn't perform well and I got in trouble or I got a bad grade or or that teacher or parent looked down on me and I didn't like how I felt. So now there feels truth to this message of I have to perform for love. And yet to see like, oh, the reason that's so powerful for me is because there are elements of it that I think are true, even if it's not entirely true. It makes me think of how often I've preached my own message that I need to hear, that a lie is not a lie because it's 100% false. A lie can be a lie because it's 1% off of God's absolute truth for you. And so if God says, no, your identity is in who I created and made you to be long before the creation of the world, and that is secure and nothing you ever say or do can change it— if that's 100% truth, but a little bit of me believes that, yeah, but there were those times when I failed and I felt really bad, then I'm already getting off of what the 100% truth is. And I just, I think for everyone out there, that's a really helpful paradigm to go, well, what is it that I believe a little bit because it sounds true and I've convinced myself it is true?

Right, right. Shame always comes masked as the truth, right? It's like, oh, I guess that could be true, right? It comes, it, it's, it's not going to come with a big billboard saying, I'm shame. I'm, you know, it's always an invitation to say an interpretation of the data of your life, um, tends to be fairly simplistic in the realm of evil, right? You're just dumb. You're just an idiot. Your needs are just too much, right? It tends to be pretty blunt and simplistic. That's usually a sign evil writes really boring plots, uh, that are very linear. You're just an idiot. That's it, right? Yeah. You're just needy. That's my whole curse, right? Those are usually the signs of shame. And, you know, and again, it comes masked as the truth. It feels like it interprets things. Yeah, like you said, a little bit askew though.

Yeah, there was a moment, same for me, just talking about shame and the narratives that we feel in middle school where my— there, it's a longer story, I won't unpack all of it, but just to say there was a moment of shame where the lie was that my vulnerability would always lead to my humiliation because there's this moment of pain in middle school that my friend would go on to tell every single teacher. He'd basically put me in front of the room and relive my moment of humiliation in front of the entire room, and I would be humiliated. And he'd say, well, we're really good together, aren't we? No, I think I'm just the butt of every single one of your jokes. But the lie against my soul is that my my vulnerability will be humiliated. And ironically enough, where am I now working? What am I now doing where my vulnerability is not to my shame, but it's to my honor and hopefully for God's glory, right? It's the divine reversal of like, oh, I was trained in the art of like being vulnerable, but it always was my humiliation. Now I get to do a job where my vulnerability is not to my humiliation, But again, but to my honor and to God's glory, like, I'm now a boaster of weakness. I jump on calls all day long talking about my porn addiction. Like, that's crazy, and it's honored. And I'm just like, gosh, God is so kind to bring about radical reversal to those moments of shame. And then, Sam, you said this, I just like want to double-click just for our audience, for the, for the women who've like experienced maybe the fallout of purity culture and modesty, but also for men to have a reframing Can you unpack the theology of clothing? Because I love what you said in your book, that you don't veil bad things, you veil glorious things.

Yes. You know, I know there's a story of how, you know, clothing was given to us to cover our shame. And, um, I actually believe, you know, there's a theme in the Bible of things being veiled, um, that are glorious. You know, you think of like Moses' face, right? He's coming down from Mount Sinai with the Ten Commandments and his face is glowing, right? And the Israelites are saying, "It's too much. It's too much good," which is just wild to think about, right? It's too piercing for us. And so they say, "Can you cover your face for us?" And so he would, right? And that's where we get the veil at weddings, right?, is, is from that story. Um, in other words, it's a, it's a story of his glory. Or you think about like the Holy of Holies, right? It's veiled, right? Or the Ark of the Covenant is literally has a covering over it. Um, or the Holy of Holies has the veil that was really cool, you know, torn in two at Jesus' death. Um, meaning there's something of the veiling of glory in the Bible, glorious things are covered. Same with the body. I actually think the clothing given is a mercy that— how do we bear the glory of nakedness? How do we bear the glory of our sexuality? And now in a fallen world where there is lust, where there is evil prowling, right? I think it's actually a bit of protection Right? It's not a covering of our shame, but a veiling of our glory that we get to then unveil, right? In like we, again, in a wedding ceremony, the bride literally unveils for her groom. Um, you know, and then you carry it forward to, you know, where Paul says we all with unveiled glory are— reflect his glory with ever-increasing glory. You're meant to be glorious. You're meant to shine. And that includes the glory of the body. Your body is not bad. It is actually artwork. It is God's— there's something glorious about the human body and how it shines. Not just sexually.

Yeah. Well, I think I love how that ties to like blessing arousal rather than just like shutting down our sexual desire, shutting down like 'Oh, this is the bad part of me again. This is the flesh. This is my body.' But just saying, 'No, there's something really good here. How do I steward that?' And so just when it comes to living a porn-proof life, can you talk about like the wow response and how that's maybe a better idea than just this like lust and shutdown and shame response to this idea of beauty or somebody else's body?

Yes. Yeah, you know, let me give a really easy example. Why do we watch sports? What's the point?

Because Nick loves the Seahawks.

Again, you know, we might say, well, you know, women in yoga pants, that's so bad. That's so immodest. And yet we watch grown men in yoga pants every Sunday, every Thursday night, right? Also known as football.

Why?

Because it's watching human bodies doing amazing things. Yeah, right. Like, I will never forget Odell Beckham Jr.'s three-finger catch, right? This is from a number of years ago, but it's now famous, right? Because it was human glory, human fitness in the body. Like, it was the human body shining in his ability to catch a football with three fingers while falling backwards. Right? Why do we watch the Olympics?

It's the best of the best, right?

The best of the best. This is the limits of the human body. And there's something beautiful about watching people in that kind of success. Why do we watch dance? Why do we watch, um, singers, musicians? Why is it so much better to be in person with them? It's when they shine. So again, it's super easy to name it there. Most people have no problem with that. Right? They would not say, well, that's so lustful. Right? We would say, no, we're just enjoying the glory of the human body in play. Now take it to sexuality. Right? And it's harder because it can feel like, again, that's bad. But I can think of an example. You know, I'm a fellow Costco member, and I was pumping gas. This was a number of months ago, um, but I was pumping gas after work and I was tired. I was spent. And, um, in the island next to me, a woman pulled up in her car and she was beautiful. She was dressed beautifully, um, and I, and I had that, oh wow, I felt her move me. And I knew I was at the crossroads, right? Like, okay, what am I going to do with my body's arousal response to her? I was just moved by her. Am I going to go to lust or am I going to do something else? And, and so I sat with like, what does she move in me? What's happening in me? And I realized as I sat with it and connected to my own core needs I could say I was stirred by the fact she was really— it was clear that she had taken care of herself. She seemed dressed like she was going to an event or dinner, nice dinner with friends, or like a play or something. Um, and I, I realized what she stirred in me is, I want to be like that. I want to be as well-kept I want to be going to a play with friends. In other words, she took me into my own— and in order not to lust, I had to connect with my own tiredness. Yeah, I had to connect with my own hunger to want to be like that in terms of I want to be a beautiful person going to extravagant events. Again, that was obviously a story I made up in my head. I don't know what she was up to. But she had clearly— she was clearly a dignified woman. Um, and, and so I would say actually letting myself move took me into my core needs and let me start to have a conversation with God about, God, I want to be like that. Where am I not taking care of myself well? Where am I compromising my glory, right, through overworking or tiredness or whatever, right? Um, so I think you have an opportunity to let people move you towards God. And it can be as simple as like, wow, that's a beautiful person, thank God for beauty. It can be that simple, or it can be God, what does this person stir in me? What are my core needs that are, are being drawn out here? And then accessing those.

Yeah, I think that is so awesome because probably all of us in one way or another have been in a situation like that where we realize someone that we see, whether we're male or female, has clicked all of our boxes that for whatever reason creates a response in us. And our learned response to that is, shame on me, why am I feeling that? Look away, don't— you know, that's wrong, that's not my wife, or that's not my husband. And we're immediately into our shame cycle. But that's kind of what we've been taught is like how we deal with it is look away, divert the eyes. And I'm not saying you should just stare at someone, but we're doing it out of that fear and shame of what's wrong with me versus seeing it as an opportunity to ask what's right with me. Why in this moment is, is there created arousal and desire, which again, as we've already talked about, is completely God-given. Arousal is not of the enemy. Arousal is the body's response to things that matter. And we do it with other people, we do it with events. Like, yes, it's our human body's response. And to have the wisdom to pause long enough and ask, what in this moment is making that so intriguing and exciting to me? Because it's not just what I'm seeing. And so many of us have been trained that like, well, that's just— that's my lust speaking and I got to get over it. And then we play the game of, did I look away fast enough? I think I glanced at her for half second? Was that quick enough? And, and man, my eyes lingered for half a second too long, and then I sinned. Do I got to confess to my group? And we get into that. And, and again, we're not saying just stare at that person and ignore it, but rather than that very calculated, you know, did I behave well enough to look away, to thinking, why am I even drawn to that? And in this moment, what, what is happening in me? Yeah, because I've said that to a lot of guys in group, that there are probably times you've walked through the store and you didn't notice a single person And it— and then other days, as you walk through the store, you notice 10 people that like caught your attention. And asking yourself the question, why this day and not yesterday? What was different between those two experiences that made me so aware of what was happening around me? What was I looking for? You know, and real quickly, in my story, it's recognizing that in so many of those moments, connected to what I already shared, there's a belief that says if that person notices me then it validates my worth. Because if someone that I perceive to be beautiful looks and sees me and I can sense like they've, they've taken awareness of me, then I must be valuable and on par with them. Like, oh, that's, that's way more about my needs, uh, that God invites me to meet in him and others than it is actually about my lust or my hormones.

Well, just, I love this story, Sam, and I just like want to unpack it even a little bit further, like Because I just have this imagery of like you running around the other side of your car and hiding. Like, as in that, I think has been typically like, that's a good response, right? Look away. Be afraid. Shame on you. You're a bad man. Your desire is bad. Your arousal is bad. All these things. Hide, hide. And like, you're not looking at her the rest of the time. But also the opposite experience of like, wow. And I love the language of awe, us being moved to awe and to wonder. Which I think is actually even then back towards God, our creator, like, oh my gosh, God, thank you for making beautiful things, beautiful people, beautiful, you know, creation, all these things around us. Thank you for making beauty. And this is not my beauty to behold or to steward. And so may I, you know, may I honor her and myself in this moment. But then I also love how different that experience would have been if you weren't tired. Can you imagine if you were wearing a suit and you felt good and you were like, and you see this person, you're like, yeah, I'm going to the show too.

I'm going to dress up.

Exactly.

Like there would be a different experience there. But I think just to highlight, like in your lowness and your longing, like there's like, oh man, if my day hadn't been hard. Oh, if my day was ending with a play and dinner and friends, like, right. All of those storylines you begin to create in your mind. And just, there's such complexity to moments. But I also think, again, just to, to land the plane of, and we don't have to be afraid. And arousal isn't just sexual arousal. Arousal just simply means to be heightenedly aware. And I think that's helpful context of like, if there's anybody listening who's like, wait, Sam was aroused at the gas pump? Like, no, no, no, no. Like, sure, there may have been a level of sexuality. I'm not trying to shut that down, but I'm also just saying, I think sometimes our definition or language around arousal has been only sexual. I think we need to expand this. To be heightenedly aware is quite literally the definition of arousal. And yes, that can be sexual too.

Yeah.

Yes. Great point. Right. You can be moved. Right. And again, as I'm naming with sports, you know, largely you're, you're, you know, being moved by sports athletes is not sexual. Awe is far bigger than just sexual. You know, sexual awe, as you're naming well. And arousal is bigger than that. And yes, understanding we don't mean like, you know, you're fully, you're having an erection in all of these moments, right? It just means you feel moved in your body and you have to, you can welcome that.

Yeah.

You can say, okay, you know, this isn't inherently lustful. It doesn't have to be. Now I will tell you this, in that moment, I knew I could have gone towards lust.

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

I could have just bravely said, you know what, I'm tired, I'm going for it, right? I'm gonna try to meet my tiredness need by just, you know, fantasizing about this woman, and instead letting it, you know, actually letting her glory undo me. I need to connect to my own needs, right? Uh, it was, it was, uh, a powerful moment I ended up having with God.

Yeah.

Yeah, will you be the lover or will you be the savage? I love that, that depiction in your book, the two, the two types. Am I moving towards being a savage of a man or am I moving towards being a lover?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Sam, as we're learning to identify these lies, as we're recognizing the ways we've shamed ourselves, we've listened to shame, and we're wanting to come out of that, why is radical kindness a more effective tool for long-term freedom and changing that thinking than the contempt or self-punishment, or almost the idea of like, I'm going to beat it out of myself or shame my way into freedom. Why is that not effective versus radical kindness?

Yeah, you know, I would say, and this almost sounds scandalous to me every time I read this verse, it's the scandal of the gospel because it doesn't seem like it's the right path, right? Like, why should I be beating myself up? And, and, you know, come on, I gotta, I gotta work hard and get out of this. And yet Romans 2, the kindness of God leads us to repentance, right? God is slow to anger and rich in love. And, and those can sound like, well, how is that ever going to work, right? I gotta like— don't I need to feel some pain here? And I would say, actually, um, you know, contempt tends to be how we get out of shame. But contempt only hardens you more, right? Self-punishment only makes you harder-hearted, not softer. There's something— I would say this in my experience in therapy, my experience in group work: receiving love, or even just friendship Receiving love is actually really scary. It's actually— it really takes courage and risk and vulnerability, um, because it opens you up. And genuinely, a person who genuinely receives love actually feels humble, right, and softer. So receiving kindness right? That God is kind to you. He doesn't want to rage at you. And welcoming that kind of kindness, even in the face of our own struggles with sin or lust, right? Here, um, it is good because it softens your heart. Um, you know, that we're, we're gonna, you know, Jesus assumes this at some level, that you love out of your own self-love. You love your neighbor as yourself.

Right, right.

And so, um, you know, it— again, every time I say it, it feels scandalous. Like, well, aren't we cheapening it, right? How could that work? Um, but it does. I think it's the way God set up the human heart, um, that love softens you and contempt hardens you. Um, and, you know, becoming hard in your addiction is only going to make you more numb and more stuck. Somewhere you have to start to let your heart be open to receiving care and love.

Yeah, that's beautiful. It's a different pathway than many of us were taught of, you know, shape up, get your act together, figure it out. And the things that we perceive to be so unpleasant, we just don't talk about them very much. But, you know, as you said, naming it, speaking it in safe places where then we receive that love, You know, and that makes me think of a follow-up question because I think what you just said is really key and it's something maybe men in particular, I think some women too, but many of us struggle to receive love because it does feel like, uh, the shame messages actually creep up. Like, well, if you really know me, or are you just saying that because you're trying to get something from me? Like, to actually just receive love feels awkward. And if we acknowledge that's one of our challenges, how could we grow in letting others— and, and part of this is letting God love us— how do we learn to receive love? In a healthy way.

Yeah, you know, I, I think, I think back to like when I was in the throes, I got caught in my own pornography use, uh, and addiction, um, when I was 19. And, um, out of the mercy, my mother suggested I go to a counselor, right? I was caught by my family, my parents, and And it was— I thought I was going to die, right? I mean, the feeling of exposure, right? You talk about shame, right? And I wanted to crawl into the earth and just be absorbed. And because it was the first time that somebody— that shame and fighting was opened up and somebody knew. And so I went to this counselor assuming that it would be the beat-me-up, approach, right? Like, that's what I need. He needs to really stick it to me because, you know, again, you know, it apparently I don't understand how sinful this is and I just need to have it beaten, beaten into my head. Instead, I sat with a man for 2 years who was just immensely kind, huh, who was curious with me. He asked me questions. He cared for me. And it wasn't that he treated what I was doing lightly, But he invited me into starting to see the context of my own story, what was getting me there. And I remember even in that first session, starting very guarded and bracing for the beat up to weeping. I had no idea I had pain in me. I had no idea that I had a story. I remember ending and being like, what did you just do to me? Like, what was this magical thing? And it wasn't anything other than he cared. He was kind. So I would say, you know, it will feel incredibly risky. Um, you know, Brené Brown's words: vulnerability is our most accurate measure of courage. Uh, it might feel like you're going to die, right? To be vulnerable again somewhere, that the best you gotta do is just hide. But there's something really humbling about receiving love. It helps you come back to your humanness, that you need care. That's humble. That you are a limitless creature who can figure everything out on your own, that's actually arrogance. Right? To be able to say, actually, I have needs and I have limits and I need love, um, is, is humble. It's a humble position to be in.

I just want to say, Sam, I'm so grateful that you had that experience and so grateful that you now get to be that experience, uh, for so many people, right? The places of our pain, we then get to turn around and potentially steward for the good of others. I just, I can only imagine how many men would say, "Sam was kind." Yeah.

"And caring and listening." Yeah, I think what you are saying, Sam, is an indication for all of us, like if we struggle to know how to receive love, we have to proactively find a place that might help us learn that differently, whether it is the kindness of a counselor, if there is a pastoral minister around us that we just sense from them kindness, you know, the Rodney Wright in our life, or for so many, a Pure Desire group, a place that for the first time they went and they said everything and people didn't recoil or shame or run away. They said, thank you, and we love you, and you're valuable. And it's like, uh, did you hear what I said? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what you should say. But their kindness started to win us over to receive love. And if, if you're in that place and you don't have someone, um, we could wait a long time for someone to come and be that for us incidentally. But proactively saying, where can I go and find that? Because I recognize my need to experience kindness in the places of my, my real hurt and shame. Uh, Sam, I think this has been an amazing conversation, and I want to wrap up here with giving you an opportunity to kind of look at, like, cast the forward-looking vision. If we've learned to know ourselves, kind of the title of this podcast, where we're recognizing the lies, replacing them with kindness and truth, would you give us a picture of what, what is in that place? What does vibrant sexuality look like for a single married or married person who's living in a new way that really helps them live above the counterfeit of porn because of this way they're living?

You know, I would invite you— I'm, I'm convinced sexuality is such a picture for us of, you know, our deepest design, which is we are made for aliveness and relatedness. Intimacy and adventure, aliveness and relatedness, um, or I would say play and awe, right? As I wrote in my book, I'm convinced sexuality at its heart is a form of play. It's a place our love gets to play. Now again, you might not be in a context where you're sexually active in a marriage, right? So then what? Are you just left out of all of it? I would say no, you still get to participate in being related and alive. So thinking about, you know, if you just think to yourself, when was the last time I really felt alive and connected to other people, right? If you just think of an example of that, and right away the memory that comes to my mind is, interestingly, I was with our small group on New Year's Eve. I was with the guys and we were playing a game of cards. And intermixed, we were talking about reflections on our year, things we sensed God was doing in our year to come. But in the middle of that was genuine banter and laughter and connection, and it felt so just open-hearted, playful, right? Again, you would say, "Well, you know, that's not a sexual moment." You're right, it's not. But it is a moment of intimacy and adventure, right? Which is the deeper truth about us. You, you don't just get that in sex, although sex is a version of that. So again, you know, having a life of play and awe, I think, is the fruit. Um, I think we would all say at some level pornography comes as the counterfeit version of that. Yeah, it has, it has a little bit of thrill and a little bit of the adventure of what am I going to find at the next click or the next click, right? That might be just a little more titillating or a little more arousing, right? And it feels maybe a little connecting because I'm watching lots of skin and seemingly lots of dopamine. There's lots of dopamine, right? And yet I think we can all say none of us feel or felt alive and related, right? We feel numb and alone.

Yeah.

So beginning to just literally, for those listening to this podcast, write down when was the last time you felt alive and connected to somebody, right? That could be God. My guess is it's in moments of intimacy and adventure, play, or awe, right? And just having the body memory of that contrasted with what you feel after a porn binge, right?

Yeah.

Can you feel how different those are? So, so learning the biofeedback of like, you, you are wired for intimacy and adventure. And you get to have that. Um, there's a whole world to play in. There's a whole world of sensuality waiting for you, um, that you get to experience. That's the vision. That's what you actually get to recover, um, is that you're no longer numb and alone somewhere.

Yeah, I get it. I mean, after, you know, watching pornography, masturbation, right, the high quite literally crashes. I also— I love in your book you talk about the idea of orgasm being almost like a mini death, like it's the most vulnerable moment in reality where you are completely seemingly out of control and it's as if you're dying. That was mind-blowing for me. But I think about that experience, right? And then you realize you're alone. Oh, I'm still alone in the bathroom or the bedroom, and I'm actually not with people. I'm not playing. I'm not living into adventure. I'm not actually all that excited. And I think about contrasting it to like I would say the last one I felt alive on a recent date night, dressing up, being downtown Portland, almost pretending. It's like, what are we doing? We're just kids. I'm like, I'm a kid, but like, I'm pretending like I'm an adult and like going out to dinner and waiting for the reservation. Well, they didn't take reservations, but we had to wait because we got on the list. And just the experience of the food and the warmth of the room and all of these people around us and the 6'7" waiter bending down to get on eye level with us at our table, just all of this moment. It's just like, whoa, you know, like, I'm alive.

Yes.

And I feel that.

And I just— yes, that was not my experience of porn addiction, and it lied to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a beautiful picture you've painted, Sam. It makes me think of your, you know, your night playing cards with the guys is so life-giving. And the difference between had you been like in an online gaming app playing cards to try to win money A lot of the same. There's cards, there's competition. It's a game. I'm having dopamine, but, but the one's going to be very unfulfilling and disconnected, even if you win money in the end, versus the other being about connection, adventure, relationship, and leaning into that and allowing it to— I think maybe the point I would say is in those moments, whether it's a night out with friends, being all dressed up or a card night with guys, or maybe a beautiful experience with your spouse, It's to reflect and go, okay, what is the message of that moment that I need to internalize? What does that experience say to me about my value, worth, and identity that is way more real than the artificial lure of pornography or other, you know, addictive substances? Because those become the moments we need to camp on and really build our life around. So yeah, good stuff.

Can I close with this, Sam? This is just a little paragraph from your book regarding the outcome of this. To the question of like, what's the outcome? Your sexuality will impact far more than just you. People can feel what it's like to be around you. This work of recovering and coming alive to healthy sexuality will impact your world. You don't have to go looking for the heroic. Being a sexually alive and good man or woman in the world will bring you face to face with the darkness in it, and you will get to stand on the neck of evil. This is about justice.

Yeah.

And this is about compassion on the world around us.

That is from Sam's great book, The Sex Talk You Never Got. So if you don't have a copy yet, please go buy one. Sam, this has been an awesome conversation. Tell our listeners where they can connect with you, where they can find more of what you're doing. Where would you direct them?

Yeah, for Nick and John, I— this has been incredible for me as well. I love the work you guys are doing and your own aliveness and relatedness. This feels like play in and of itself with you. And I would love for you to buy my book. And also I'm on Substack, so that's a place that I have ongoing conversations on sexuality, healthy sexuality. And we do— if you become a paid— it's free if you want to read the articles and you can comment and I'll comment back. We do a once-a-month conversation. We actually had it last night with a group of paid subscribers, and it's another place I love to play where you get to have conversation with me. So those would be places I'd love to meet you and hang out with you more.

Yeah, so just look up Sam Jolman on Substack and they can find you.

Yep, samjolman.substack.com.

Okay, we'll put that in the show notes. And yeah, thank you for your insights today as we all look to live a life that is above the lure of pornography because we're understanding ourselves. We know the lies that we're tempted to believe and why they feel like truth. And instead, we're leaning into the truth that God has for us and the invitation. I love where you ended there, the invitation into being alive and related or into play and awe. And we hope that you, our listeners, can take some of these ideas and thoughts and begin to implement them into your world, whether you're in active recovery or simply looking to live a porn-proof life. And if you're— so thanks again, Sam, for joining us. Great to have you today.

Thank you.

And if you're a fan of this show, if today's content was meaningful to you, would you please subscribe? Give it a review, give it a like, share it with somebody. Not only does it make us feel good, but that's not what it's really about. This— these are all ways that more people will find this life-giving content. And if you would like more information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at PureDesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.