Team 58 Day Celebration

And just like that, we are live here on Facebook. Rodney, good to have you.

Hello, John, how great. I've been off Facebook for a while. It's great to be back on here live.

I feel the same. I was responding to a donor today who said, wait, why are we promoting Facebook? And I said, we're not promoting it, we're going fishing on it. We're trying to get more people off of it, but here we are.

Casting on Facebook today.

Exactly, we are casting on Facebook. Rodney, you and I I've gotten to be a part of two of these the last two years. This one's a little bit different. Can you tell our audience a little bit about what the last two years have looked like?

Yeah, this is what we call Team 58 Days. So 5-8, uh, May the 5th. And Team 58, uh, is really beautiful. It's, uh, over 400 men and women who have found hope, healing, and freedom, and they are giving back to help other people. But the last couple years we've done like 9-hour-long interviews, uh, John and I, uh, for the whole day. And so we're excited to be on Facebook and make this an hour and a half. And so, uh, yeah, 5 stories, palatable, exciting. We're glad to be here.

Yeah, one thing Rodney and I said is, man, 9 hours, that was fun, but I'm not for sure we're gonna do it again.

We're not doing that again.

Yeah, and I'm grateful for an hour and a half, grateful to be with you, Rodney. Rodney, just for those who don't know you, Who are you? What is your role here at Pure Desire?

Uh, yeah, Rodney Wright, married to my wife Tracy. I joined Pure Desire 10 years ago as a board member, and then 8 years ago as an ambassador, or what I like to call a sexual missionary. Uh, we joined Pure Desire kind of, uh, to talk in churches. Uh, my wife and I share our story of, uh, addiction recovery. And then we wrote a parent book, How to Talk with Your Kids About Sex, Not Letting Porn Be the Sex Educator of Our Kids. Come on, somebody, say it again. You can do better. And in the last 8 years, I've done a lot of different roles, uh, but, uh, enjoy teaching, enjoy John in our development department, and then recently just helping out in leadership. So just, uh, my, uh, my job ever changes, and I just love to help all the young, smart, and wonderful men and women that we have on board.

Uh, it's so good. Thanks, Rod. It's been such a gift to get to know you. Um, my name is John Begman. I'm the Advancement Director here at Pure Desire, getting to serve donors, and I got hired 5 years ago. My journey of recovery started in 2020, so I started my own journey of recovery. I began to find traction in through a Pure Desire group and Seven Pillars, and I got hired a year later. And little did I know that I think working here has also been a part of my healing, getting to share story, hear story. We believe in the power of story. Tonight, again, you're going to get to hear 5 stories We've got a handful of singles as well as 2 couples joining us tonight over the course of 90 minutes, and our hope is that you're inspired, you're encouraged, and you walk away with a level of hope that you haven't known before, because we believe that stories increase faith. Revelation 12:11 talks about how we overcome by the blood of the Lamb, the gift of Christ, and the power of our testimony. And so, Rodney, before we have people join us. Can you give us just a little bit of the background, like, for those watching who are like, wait, what's Pure Desire Ministries? Why did this populate on my page right now? What is Pure Desire Ministries? Where did we begin? And then I'll jump in with some of what is Team 58. But take us back, where did this begin?

Yeah, our founder, uh, Dr. Ted and Diane Roberts, were pastors in the Gresham, Oregon area. And Dr. Ted was, uh, speaking and spoke on this, uh, subject of sexual challenge, sexual brokenness, how problematic it is and gave a response. And he felt like his whole congregation came forward and felt a prompting about this is from the Lord about this is not just a problem in his local fellowship, but in the big church. And he— that's when he kind of heard his call to, hey, let's do something about it. So he got a hold of Dr. Patrick Carnes, who was at the time the leading sexual addiction therapist, and integrated a curriculum that deals with, uh, the biblical principles as well as being clinically informed about how pornography hits the brain, and put together a course at that time called For Men Only. And little did he know that this would no longer just be a men's issue, but that's, that's how we started. And so some 30 years ago started, um, Pure Desire unofficially, and it has grown now over the years to bringing hope, healing, and freedom to men and women who struggle with sexual addiction to porn or unwanted sexual behavior, and those that are hurt by betrayal trauma. And so we're really grateful that, uh, we help men and women on both sides of that equation. And today we're going to jump into that. And over the years, John, we have just grown to reach more and more and more— I would literally say without exaggeration, hundreds of thousands of men and women have been touched by this work. And you and I joined the cause just to keep the work going. And let's continue to— you're going to hear some great stories today that should be very inspiring. Men and women who found just that: hope, healing, and freedom. No longer using sex as a way to cope, but learning how to manage it in healthy ways for themselves and others.

Well said. I'll say, Rodney, I know for so many who are probably watching, sexuality has been a topic of contention in their own story, in their family, in their community, in their church, wherever they find themselves, right? Whether it's money, politics, religion, there's some topics that you don't talk about, and sexuality is one of those. And just before we begin tonight, I'd love if you could just start with a reframe. If we could reframe that our sexuality is not bad, just take us in. Help us understand what is the goodness. Take us to Genesis.

Yeah, well, you know, for those of us of the Christian faith, we draw our touchstone in scripture. And when you read Genesis 1, all that God had created, the birds, the fish, the sea, the ocean, the sky, the moon, all of that. And then he created man, male and female. And at the end of that narrative, at the end of chapter 1, he looked over all that he made. It was good. It was good. It was good. And it was very good. And male and female. And, and I think this is where, in my opinion, we can improve on a better narrative about our sexuality is good and it's wonderful, it's to be celebrated, single or married, stewarded in a healthy way, uh, managed in a healthy way for a single or married for the rest of our life. And so that's a new narrative we're wanting to get out, is this isn't just about trying to save something for marriage, this is about embracing your sexuality is good, and then learning to steward it in healthy ways, married or single, from the rest of your life. And which brings dignity, honor, and respect to yourself sexually, and leads to dignity, honor, and respect to others sexually. And that's really what we're about here today. And you're going to hear stories of just, just what happened, how people found this healing and are managing this in different ways.

What I love so much about tonight is, of the 8 people we have sharing. 3 of them are still single. We have men and women who are single as well as married learning to manage and steward the gift of sexuality. And for me, right, with my own story, uh, I just got married 50 days ago. Uh, this will date this video a little bit, but I got married recently. And for so much of my recovery, I was navigating as a single. And I feel like there's this lie that unless you're married, you're not whole, you're not complete. And just to say no, no, no, whether you're single because you are pre-marriage, single post-divorce, or single post-death, there is space for you in this kingdom called the family of God. And you don't have to live waiting. You can live full. You can live whole here and now. And the gift of your sexuality can be stewarded, not just given to mismanagement, right? In the same way that we manage finances or our time or our physical bodies, we also get the opportunity to manage our sexuality. But Rod, I know for a lot of people there's this low view of self. Not only is my sexuality bad, but like, if there is a God, he must not love me and he's probably angry at me. And just before we begin, can you take us to Genesis 1:28? Because I think you have something so profound to share with anybody listening about the gift of how God sees us.

Yeah, well, uh, if you struggled with human sexuality, I would say that You're not alone. A good portion of humanity, this is struggled with. And I think because of a narrative, but many times shame has been the loudest voice in the room. And we feel like somehow we've disappointed ourselves or disappointed others and obviously disappointed the divine. And it's just a simple scripture that when God creates male and female, Adam and Eve, the word is he blesses them. The word is barach, and it means to kneel in the door. And I love that. It's the same word in Psalm 34, I will barak the Lord, that the psalmist uses. But God creates what he loves and he loves what he creates. And so what's most true about you is you're adorable. Now, I just held just 15 minutes ago, my little granddaughter, Esty, warmed this papa's heart. She's about 10 days old. And, you know, I didn't literally kneel down when she was born. But like I said about her mother 35 years ago, I laid my checkbook on her chest and said, it's all yours. And where does that heart come from? And this dad for that daughter or granddaughter, I think it's the heart of the divine that we, we're all worthy of love and adoration. And if that message has been robbed from you today, let's start a new narrative. Let's, uh, let's replace the lie with the truth that you're worthy of love. You're worthy of hope, freedom, and healing. And so today we hope these stories inspire you. We hope to be the answer to someone's prayer. So keep listening and thank you for joining us today.

Yeah.

And for those who've navigated betrayal trauma who are watching, we just want to say this is for you. And for those who've navigated addiction, we want to say this is also for you. And for those who've experienced pain from the lens of abuse or harm, we just also want to say we're so sorry. Uh, we so believe that that was not the goodness of God and his intent of how this world was supposed to be. And we hope that even this can be a part of the healing process, as you watch people who've done the work, who've navigated pain, and are saying, Jesus, here are my wounds, here are my scars, you know, steward them, use them in the best way possible. And so just to say, wherever you find yourself in the audience tonight, we see you, and we hope that these stories put voice to some of the things that you've navigated in your own story, believing that You're not alone. Your story matters, and you are worthy of love. And so, two real clear calls to action for tonight. If you're like, wait, who is Pure Desire Ministries? Wait, what is this guy talking about, the love of God and sexuality? This is confusing, or I've never heard this. Please, please, please feel free to check out puredesire.org to consider starting your healing journey today. Schedule a free consultation with our group team members or counseling team members if you find yourself in that boat. And then, on the other hand, If you're like, no, no, no, I know who Pure Desire is, I've been a part of this, I was in a local group or an online group, or I've done counseling, we would just say please consider joining our community of monthly donors who are paying their healing forward. And that, that's called Team 58, and that's why we're here tonight. This is Team 58 Day. You're like, wait, wait, what? I'm like, May 8th, 5-8, Team 58 Day. That's what we're doing. And simply to say We believe that we are better together. It was about— go ahead, Ronnie.

No, it's just Team 58. John, what is Team 58? Yeah, tell us the origin of that story.

Yeah, so Isaiah 58:12 is where it gets its origin. At some point, Dr. Ted, our founder, and his wife Diane were counseling Nick and his wife, our current executive director, and he was speaking over Ted's— or sorry, over Nick, saying, Nick, You will be known as a rebuilder of lives and a restorer of homes, just like Isaiah 58:12 says. And Nick goes, oh, that's so personal, a rebuilder and a restorer. And he thought that was a personal promise for him until he showed up at an event with Nick just a couple months later— and sorry, with Ted— and Ted spoke this in front of the entire crowd saying, and some of you in the room will be called the rebuilder of lives and a restorer of homes. And we just think it's funny to say Yes, even you, wherever you find yourself in your story today, you too can participate in the hope, freedom, and healing that God has on offer, right? We're hoping to be somebody's answered prayer today. So, Rod, uh, real quick before we let our first individual in, do you mind just saying a prayer for those watching, whether that's the abused, the betrayed, or the addicted, or anybody in between, uh, just to set the next hour of stories?

I'd love to. Yeah, thank you, John. Those watching today, just hear these words: You are the beloved of God. This is not by chance that you're listening today. And we believe that there is something for you to hear that will spark something in your soul, that there's a better way, and that you would hear the words of the divine that we're just speaking through human beings today, men and women who are going to share their stories. May the Christ in them, uh, ignite something in you that there's a better way, and may you trust and may you follow. For those of us who found hope, healing, and freedom, may we join the movement of men and women who are giving back to make a difference in this world and reclaiming the narrative around human sexuality. So God, thank you. We are so grateful, and we're anxious to see what you have in store.

Amen, amen, and amen. Well, first, uh, to start, we're headed all the way to Indiana, and there's a little bit of a narrative arc for anybody watching, you know, just to give you a little bit of an overview. We're going to start with the lens of a male, uh, navigating addiction. We'll move towards a female navigating addiction. We'll move to clearly address betrayal, and then we're going to look at a couple who's not only found traction but has begun to help other couples in a local area. And we'll end with some friends in Pennsylvania who are impacting a college soccer team. That's the narrative. Addiction, not just a male issue, also a female issue. How couples are finding recovery, as well as ending with a random soccer team in Pennsylvania. So to start, we're going to introduce our friend Rob Martz. Rob is joining us all the way from Indiana. Rob, can you hear us?

Yeah, I can. Can you hear me okay?

Yes, we can. We can't see you quite yet, but we can hear you.

Welcome, Rob.

Now can you see Rob?

Hey, how are you?

I'm great.

I'm glad to hear that.

Rob's coming from the homeland of the national championship football team, Indiana Hoosiers.

That's hard to say as a Boilermaker fan, but absolutely happy to be in the Big Ten in the state of Indiana.

All right, brother. It's nice to meet you, Rob. Thank you so much for joining us.

Uh, nice to meet you.

It's an honor to have you, Rob. I know earlier this year, uh, or maybe even last year, by now 2025, you had the chance of sharing your story in front of a group of people, and you had prepared a testimony. And we've asked Rob, so in this moment we're actually not even going to do some questions back and forth because Rob's already got it written out. Uh, but Rob, before you do that, can can you just give us a little bit of context of who you are, how long you've been married, kids? Before you jump into the story, give us some context.

Yeah, um, I'm Rob Martz. I've been married 24 years, um, well, 24 years this July, uh, ranging from 13 to 21, uh, 4 girls and a boy. Um, mechanical engineer and Yeah, that's awesome.

Well, Rob, that's great to hear you have 5 kids. I'm the number 5 in my family, so on behalf of the 5th, thank you for not stopping.

Oh, absolutely. That's my beautiful bride.

Yeah, glad you jumped in. I'll say, Rob, take us in. I know you've got it prepared. We're here to listen.

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I'll just kind of walk through. So as I thought about giving my testimony where I was about 3 years ago. And what I would have told you then is I gave my life to God sometime in elementary school, and then again at youth group, at a retreat, and again in college as a sophomore when life was really, really hard. Um, I've heard the altar call and sinner's prayer, um, hearing pastors say you could know that you know that you're saved, and I prayed that prayer every single time and so scared that it wouldn't be enough and that I wouldn't be enough. Um, and then Freedom groups at church, I heard testimonies, and I wish that someone would tell my story and that someone would actually be as broken and desperate and have as much sin as me. Um, I truly believed that God heard and answered prayers for people, but really didn't feel like he would do that for me. I didn't care— believe that he cared about me, would answer my prayers. I was very successful at work. I've got 5 kids. I've been a husband at that time for 22 years. But in all of that, I felt unloved, unseen, not enough, and honestly afraid. And over and over I've heard it said, you know, if you don't have something, just ask God, just pray. And I began every night to pray for my situation. And to be really honest and transparent, I really wanted him to change my situation. I wanted him to change my job. I wanted him to change my wife's heart, my kids' attitudes, to change other people and make them appreciate me and love me the way I deserved. And that takes me to the morning of January 29th, 2024. And that morning I sat my wife down and I had to confess that I had been unfaithful to Joy and I had visited a prostitute while on a work trip overseas. She asked me if there was more and I told her no. But there was more, and over and over this cycle of lying and being convicted and repenting happened. Um, and all total, I had to confess years of pornography, masturbation, then looking at online dating forums and sites, and eventually massage parlors and prostitutes. And over and over, as I shared, it stomped on the heart of my wife. When I finally was broken enough to let go of my pride and tell her the full truth, she asked me to leave the house. And I honestly did not know if she would ever forgive me. I had a lot of anger and bitterness toward her. I blamed nearly all of my choices on her and I did not want accountability. I felt so alone, so abandoned, so unbelievably mad at Joy and at God. Honestly, I was really mad at everyone. And felt like I had lost absolutely everything but God. And it takes me to the most important day of my life, February 4th of that year. That day, Doug, one of the preachers at our church, preached a sermon on David. But more specifically, he talked about salvation and the assurance of forgiveness. And I cried out to God like I hadn't before. And probably for the first time, I told Him all of my sin and stopped hiding. I laid out my mess. I told Him my need for a Savior. And that day, God saved me. And since then, I've never once wondered about my salvation. He also referenced back to other sermons on David in Psalm 32 and how God pursued David and was heavy on him and then forgave the entire breadth and depth of his sin. And these two sermons really changed my life, and I had to be willing to allow the Holy Spirit to do a work in my heart and my life. I'm different. I was asking God to do a work, and he showed up, and he opened up my heart. The day I confessed, I called the church and I began individual counseling. And one of those sessions I was discussing, you know, how could God leave me and abandon me and not hear all my prayers I prayed for years? In one of those sessions, Matt, one of the— my counselor asked me, why did I confess my sin to my wife and share? And I told him, for multiple nights over and over when I went to bed, God was heavy on me like nothing else I had felt. And I couldn't sleep. I couldn't do anything. I just felt this incredible weight all over my body and a conviction that I had to confess. And it was then that he reminded me during Freedom Groups that I had been praying that God would change me or change my situation. And he showed me in the very pit of my sin while I was lying and hiding and sinning, God was laying with me night after night and He would not relent. He was with me in the middle of my mess. He came and loved me and pursued me. It was exactly what I had prayed for, and I understood how David said when he said that God was heavy on him. I was curriculum on sexual purity through Pure Desire. I can't begin to tell you the tools, the help, the men that have impacted and changed my life. Before this, I refused to admit I had an addiction. I fought and I argued and I lied to myself and others. But one of the things we learned early was the definition of an addict is someone who's doing something that hurts someone else. They have tried to stop and can't, and it's impacting— and that is impacting other areas of their life. And I can't tell you how hard it is from going, just saying, "Eh, I don't have a problem," or, "I just look at porn sometimes," or, "Just masturbate," to being able to admit that I was a sex addict and I needed help. And more, I needed the forgiveness of God. It was Sexual Integrity 101 that showed me my sin was not just something most guys did. But that I was an addict and I was hurting myself and others. In that class, I began some amazing friendships and had men who were honest about the mess we were all in. Seven Pillars then, and my Pure Desire group gave me the tools and accountability and the structure to gain sobriety for the first time in my life. And then Compassionate Warriors really helped me grow in that, not just being sober, but being— but desiring to love and serve and honor my wife, my church, my community. And really, they talk a lot about what— not what to stop doing, but instead what to start doing and how to start focusing on what your goals and your direction you want to go in your ministry. Yeah, this community, the groups, they've changed my life. And several of those guys have learned and walking with me in friendship and accountability, even though our classes and materials have all ended. Philippians 1:4 says, "He who began a good work in you will see it through to completion." Jesus Christ. And I'll tell you, I'm not perfect. I know that God doesn't ask me to be perfect, and I don't have to live in addiction or shame or hiding anymore. I do believe, and I do have true assurance of salvation. I do believe in, and I have healing from addiction. I would not wish the last couple years on anyone. And honestly, I wouldn't go back and change any of it. If it meant not knowing the love of God that I know now. Um, and as I thought about speaking tonight and reflecting on my story and what I want to share, that I truly thought I was a Christian all that time. I had been to church as long as I can remember. I'd been in a small group, led small groups, taught kindergarten and Sunday school, and sat under great teachers and preachers most of my life. But the sermon that changed my life on Psalm 32, I'd sat and listened to in person 6 months before I was saved. But I'd minimalized my sin and hidden. I'd lied about my sin in so many men's groups and Bible studies, and I thought I could handle it. It was between me and God. But I learned it was not until I fully confessed and fully repented that God would save me and change my life.

Wow. Rob, thank you so much for, uh, just opening up your soul and sharing your journey with other people. I hope that men and women who hear this today recognize that there is hope. And thank you so much for 3 things: God led you to men and help and tools. I love to hear that. That's part of my prayer that I believe. Lord, that was a prayer I said 29 years ago. Lord, could you, could you lead me to people and resources that can help me? And, uh, and God did in this therapist. And so I love to hear your journey. Uh, thank you so much for for just owning your story. And I don't think it's hard for God to forgive. It is the character and nature of God to forgive. They say forgive 7 times 70 because that, that's what God does, right? They're showing us how to do it. So I'm grateful that, uh, when Christ said, Father, forgive them, that, that included you and me and John and the rest of the world, uh, that forgiveness is the heart of God toward us. And so grateful for your story and your restoration. And being a part of that. What would you say to a man or woman listening and they're thinking, wow, that guy's pretty brave sharing a story like that. Uh, I, that, that, do I have to get on Facebook and share my story live like that? And the answer is no. But how about not holding a secret anymore and bring it into the light? What would you just encourage someone that says, yeah, but if people really knew me, they wouldn't really love me.

What's the truth you The truth is, honestly, that's why I hid and lied for so many years. I mean, again, you, you go in small groups and some guys are talking about, you know, struggling with porn. And, and again, it was for me, I, I was afraid if I told my wife, if I told my small group. But, you know, I grew up in church, and so you think people are going to leave you and abandon you. And honestly, I did think when I confessed to my wife that I had lost my marriage and my kids and everything. And also, as long as I lied and hid, I couldn't be present. And I really feel like I couldn't be fully present with God because I was not just lying to others, it was like I was lying to myself and hiding the truth. And it was like I had this life that I portrayed to everyone else, and there was this secret part that if you can't explore the secret parts, you can't be real with your wife, you can't be real with small groups, you can't be real with God. And if you're not real with God, you're not going to have salvation. It's that you've got to be fully present. So yeah, yeah. And you share with small groups, and, and it is— it's the more I share, the more freedom I have, and the more that God just has blessed that and, and given me more freedom.

Rob, just real quick before we wrap up, one thing Uh, John Ortberg, pastor out of California, says spiritual power can flow in almost any place, but it can't flow where there's hiding. And something I heard so clearly in your story was I came out of hiding, I confessed everything to God, and I began to do the work of being known and seen fully and believing that you, even there, could be loved. So just to say, like, what a powerful testimony, but In the last 2 minutes we have, Rob, answer this: who were you in addiction, and who are you now becoming? Because you're still married, you still have 5 kids. God's brought a lot about, a lot of restoration. Who were you? Who are you now becoming?

To close, yeah, I would say, who was I? I was all about approval of the world and the world's perception. And again, I was successful at work, you know, people would see my wife and I in the halls at church and We had good behavior, successful, and we were that family that everybody looks at and thinks, you know, man, I wish our family was like that. And it was a constant act and a constant show. And I don't know that I even saw that, but it was always that appearance of others. And I think it's amazing because as we have shared, as we have come out, I mean, God has given us more and more opportunities and there are so many hurting people. And then when you can just sit and be real with people, it's amazing. I mean, some do judge, but 99% aren't looking to judge. They're looking to walk with you. And so many share places and ways that they're hurting too. And God has given us so many ways to walk with people and share with people and just be present. And so I'd say just from being an actor to being present is the The biggest two.

Real quick, somebody left a comment. Did your wife participate in Betrayal and Beyond?

She did. Um, and it actually— do you want to—

please, if he's here, we love you. Hello, hello!

Good to meet you.

Thank you, nice to be here.

Yeah, Joy, anything you would say before we wrap up?

Yeah, um, first, just the change. We like to address it as old Rob and new Rob. Like, when God got a hold of Rob and he allowed God to change him from the inside out, he's a completely different person than who he was before. And yes, I participated in Betrayal and Beyond. I participated in a group last year, and that was incredible for me as well, to have women who are going through similar things, to be able to share our stories, to get the tools that I needed to help me process the things that I had experienced as well.

So is it Joy? Did I get the name right? Joy. Joy, thank you so much for just loving yourself in the midst of betrayal and seeking help for you. And, uh, just know that when you go through those tough, tough seasons, it's really— it's, it's what we need to do is put on our mask on first and, and take help. And so I'm glad that you found people and resources there to help you too. And I just want to say thank you both for your generosity and wanting to pay it forward to help other men and women. It's really beautiful, just in your story, uh, in your, in your family, in your just who you are. Uh, you, you, you represent Indiana and the body of Christ well. So, uh, good work. Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Take care.

See you guys.

You know, John, it makes me think, uh, hearing that story, uh, maybe you're listening here today, realize that your first step isn't to go to your spouse if you're married and just tell them all your troubles, uh, but if you reach out to PureDesire.org, uh, there's a website and there's, uh, calls you can make and consultations you can have. So I just throw that out there for people.

So powerful. And, uh, Rodney, as we, as we turn the corner again, there'll be a couple quick pivots. Before we wrap up this hour and a half. We move not just from men experiencing addiction in and around sexuality and wounds, but we also move towards my friend Isabel, who has navigated her own story of managing sexuality. And Isabel, I just want to say first, thanks. I think for men to own their story, it's definitely hard. But when it comes to women owning their own story, of sexual mismanagement, it's really hard. Like, times it by 10 or more. And it's kind of ironic because, Roddy, what you might not know is Isabel is actually also from Indiana but is now with us joining from Portland. The couple we just had on, Isabel, was from Indiana.

Oh, so sweet. I'm sad I missed it. Sounds like a great last couple minutes.

Yes.

Isabel, nice to see you again. I loved your podcast that you recorded with Pure Desire a while back. Nice work. Thank you for having me on this Facebook Live today.

I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

I know our time is limited, so Isabel, zoom us in. What was home like? When were you first exposed?

Absolutely. Yes. Home. Growing up out in the Midwest in Indiana was very sweet in a lot of ways. I grew up in a super small town. Fun fact, it's actually in the Guinness Book of World Records in 2010 for the largest number of churches per capita or something like that. So everybody everywhere was going to church where I'm from. That was just the water that I was swimming in personally, and I absolutely loved it. My parents gave me a super strong foundation of the Word and church and understanding Jesus and kind of understanding the dos and not dos from a really young age. And with that, unconsciously to them and without them even speaking it, I kind of grew up with the legalistic side of religion, unfortunately, or just receiving for myself that I needed to follow a lot of rules and be perfect or have the standard of enough as a Christian, enough as a student in school. I was always in athletics, so I needed to be enough. And around middle school to high school, 14 was the age, um, introduced into all that chaos of being enough was an iPod Touch for me personally, that just expanded this world of the internet and being able to escape into realities where if I didn't feel like I was enough in my real world, I could be enough reading this story or watching this video. And at first it was just like Instagram, super simple. The kids call it fluff material, nothing too spicy. But slowly but surely, the stories that I had been reading online fan fiction began to take a turn, and I didn't even realize what I was reading was pornography until I was literally in my high school locker room reading, waiting for someone to pick me up from, uh, practice. And I got blocked on my school site for explicit content.

Yeah, you're like, wait, what?

This is—

yeah, mind blown. My only context for pornography up until that point was, again, growing up in church. My youth group once a year did the classic dating conversation where all the boys got huddled into the auxiliary gym and all the girls stayed for this panel of modesty and waiting for marriage before you have sex. But we knew because all the boys would tell us afterwards that they were talking about pornography and masturbation, words that I was completely unfamiliar with because no one was talking to me about it. But because of the silence of not having that message spoken with me, when I found that message on my school's website of, oh, I was blocked for pornography, the message I received is like, oh, like something is wrong with me because I only know this to be a boys' problem and I am a woman. Or the message I received then was like potentially less than woman or a distorted version of one.

Wow.

Wow.

Go ahead, John.

Oh, Isabel, I was just gonna say, I just think I love your story for so many reasons, but just again, the simplicity of like porn is not just a male issue, porn is a people issue. And I also love the way you speak so clearly to erotica literature or smut, whatever word you want to define it as, because I think it's just this subtle thing, not just in the church but in the world, right? Like it's celebrated. You could walk in— Isabel and I are both here in Portland, Oregon— you could walk downtown right now walk into the world's largest bookstore and you would find an entire section branded as smut. For sure.

It's that accepted.

For sure.

And it's bled into the church, and for so many men or women reading this material, it's, it's deemed as not that bad.

Yeah.

And Isabel, just your natural curiosity as a young lady growing up, uh, did your parents give you any framework about how to navigate porn or any framework about your sexual development is good and healthy and how to steward it?

Unfortunately, not so much. Uh, that was a pretty taboo topic, uh, growing up in the household, even, you know, and for very good reasons. My family was always the family that we'd watch a movie and maybe a spicy scene popped on, we'd skip it right away, but there's never a follow-up conversation of why we were doing that or even playing into our own life of conversations around me and my sister liking boys or getting into dating. It was all just a little bit, uh, swept under the rug, understandably, because it's a hard conversation to have with your children. But it was definitely not normalized. And so that made it even easier to, like, as soon as I had an iPod and had access to the internet, to satiate my curiosity through outsourcing that.

And Isabel, uh, your little town in Indiana with all those churches and your mom and dad Uh, they're not uncommon to the moms and dads all across the country.

Not at all.

Don't have a healthy framework to start educating their kids about a healthy sexual narrative from a very young age as they're learning language, age-appropriate conversations, so that mom and dad become the safest person when they have— do they still have iPad Touches these days, John? I don't even know what that is. No, that's long gone. Okay, you know, the The first one I saw was chiseled on a rock, Isabel. So I'm a young older guy, but like, how do we make mom and dad the safe place, right? So young Rodney, young John, young Isabel have safe people.

Absolutely. Because my parents were wonderful parents.

Yes.

Very minimal trauma growing up.

Right, right.

Classic Midwest. We take our family vacations to Disney World in the summer, Florida. Like, they loved me. They cared for me. I knew growing up that I was like very well protected. And physically safe. Um, but there was one conversation I remember having when I was 17, so a few years into what became my porn addiction, that I confessed to my mom, uh, because my sister had just gotten an iPod Touch. She was a few years younger than me, and I didn't want what I was experiencing to happen to her. And when I confessed to her to honor my mom. I had absolutely no idea how to handle it. Again, like you said, Rodney, her generation had no idea that this was a problem. And one of her first words to me was, "I didn't think you would struggle with this." And I felt immediately, shoot, so much shame. But to her credit, like, this was a very nuanced thing. I'm one of the first generations of children to be handed a computer in their pocket.

Digital native.

Digital native, yes. And so now, like, it should just be commonplace for all parents, no matter if your child is homeschooled or in public school. Like, they have access to this, they are seeing this. Our flesh is like good that we desire this from a young age, especially teenage years. All of those things are waking up, all those hormones are turning on. But also, we live in a world That is just completely objectifying one another. Sex is in the grocery store aisles as it has always been, but now it's like, I don't know, a commercial or a YouTube ad. You could have all the safety features you want on there, but like kids are still being exposed to something, uh, even just more and more every day.

Isabel, fast forward for us. So a lack of sexual education, a lack of understanding, take us into college and then take us into like just some of your access to hope and healing. College and then hope and healing.

Yes, uh, college, because I still carried this narrative of, oh, not feeling good enough. I was being able to escape in these fantasies that I was reading. When I was moved out of my very sheltered small hometown, very safe family physically, into a bigger college world, immediately like the first men in my life that told me I was beautiful, told me that I was desirable, told me that I was like worthy and valuable in their eyes without me having to prove it. Or at least I thought so. In my head, I just like soaked that all up and unfortunately got into these cycles of relationships where because of my nature to people-please, just compromise very strong, good values that I still believed in, but it just began to like chisel away one bit after another, just kind of like what porn had done to me in high school, like starting with the fluff and then slowly but surely just dips into more. Uh, the same thing happened to me in relationships where as I began to compromise little after little after little and was also in relationships with men who were like pushing and pushing and pushing more, it was this back and forth of like, oh, I don't know how much is being done to me and how much I am participating in. And because again of growing up in a world where I did not talk about this with my parents. I did not talk about this with my church. I did not know who to talk about it with as an adult. And so I just carried this in silence and continued shame.

I so wish I could go back and offer a level of protection or care or community, right?

Like, no, no, no.

I said, Isabel, where did you find that? Where did you begin to finally put words to your own story and find safe—

mm-hmm—

community?

Yeah.

Uh, it was after a place of really hitting rock bottom, of just experiencing a night out with friends that I allowed myself to cross physical boundaries with an older man, that I was like, who am I? All these little experiences of compromising in my early college years had just like led me to this place where I felt absolutely worthless. And in that place, I felt like still even there, the Lord was speaking to me that I was worth fighting for. And the only way that I knew how to fight was in community. And so I just began immediately looking up recovery groups because I knew from being in therapy that I was struggling with codependency, struggling with some form of addiction that was getting me stuck in all these relationships. And so I signed up for Celebrate Recovery. And did that for a few weeks, which was a lovely experience. I met so many wonderful people. The problem with that though is I was really unable to resonate because a lot of the women I was in group with were in their 40s and 50s and mothers and single moms and just in a completely different stage of life. And so thankfully the Lord moved me over to Portland 4.5 years ago now. I had to count. Um, and it was through meeting you, John, and getting plugged into, uh, Unraveled curriculum and material that Unraveled— I realized today thinking about this— was actually the first group I've ever gone through with women my own age and in my stage of life. And I have fortunately been able to participate in several different recovery ministries, including Living Waters, which I love Um, but still, that was similar with Celebrate Recovery, is just a beautiful wide range of people that you get to experience healing in a different way with. But with Unraveled in particular, uh, I can't explain to you what it's like to walk through women who just like get you and know you and understand you and where you are at in life. And it really just solidifies the message, or at least it has for me, that I'm not alone in this.

Beautiful.

Isabel, I'm so glad you found your voice and shame didn't hide your voice. I am so grateful. Uh, you know, when I, when I hear your younger generation, you and John's age, it makes me thrilled about the children that are going to come should you choose to marry and have kids someday, that you're going to be parents that have known how to own your own story so that you are offering your kids something way better And not only just your children, but the people that are listening today, the woman that's in silence of, this is a men's issue, I'm struggling. I, I never thought you would have that problem, a mom might say, or all those voices of shame, intentional or unintentional. We just wanna pull those back today and say, if you're the Isabel out there today, you are worth fighting for.

Yeah.

And I'm so grateful that God led you to people and resources. Love to hear how Unraveled met you. Um, and one of our women's curriculum at Pure Desire. And so grateful that your voice is getting out there. I hope we can help your voice get out there more and more and more in this world. Thank you, Rodney.

I receive that.

In 30 seconds, what would you say to the woman who's caught using pornography, smut, fantasy masturbation, and believes there's just no hope for me?

Oh, um, I would say in 30 seconds that you are not alone whatsoever, that you're so loved, that you're so wanted, that there are so many good things that like the Lord has for you and wants to give you. And that those places that you're seeking out comfort and peace and intimacy, that there's like a truer and better vessel and medium that never ends, never stops flowing, um, in Jesus, that's on offer all the time whenever you're ready.

Beautiful. Isabel, thank you for your voice. It's such a gift to be in relationship with you.

Thanks, John.

Yeah, bless you, Isabel. Thanks again. Thanks, Rodney. Bye-bye.

Bye.

I love it, John. My generation would say smoking Joe Frazier. She was throwing haymakers. I love it. I, I love getting her voice out and letting people just, uh, hear, you know, she said Christ is with you always, and it's true. We find Christ in the men and women around us who come in those groups and they speak the words of Christ coming out of the mouths of humans. And that's the beauty of it, is Christ is with us. You're not alone today. There's a group or a person there for you.

And here's, here's the beauty. I love when singles begin to find recovery, because when singles can find recovery, healing, and freedom, they don't take it into a marriage. They get to bless marriages with honesty and health. But unfortunately Nate and Maggie, our next guests, not only know what that's like personally to find unhealth or secrecy in a marriage, but also now get to work with so many of these men and women. And so would you welcome Nate and Maggie, uh, all the way from Sioux Falls, South Dakota? Shout out South Dakota, my home state.

Uh, roosters and hens, we love it.

Nate and Maggie, we are so honored to have you guys on here tonight. Uh, we really couldn't think of anybody better, uh, as you all get to serve a part of our board at Pure Desire— thank you— uh, to really lean into this topic of betrayal. So we've talked about addiction from a male perspective, from a female perspective, what hope and healing looks like there. But really, we want to turn the corner and sit with the pain of betrayal. For so many people, maybe this is their first time if they're tuning in, like, wait, what is betrayal? Or what is betrayal trauma? How does that impact a spouse. And so if you guys could just zoom us straight in, give us maybe a little bit of context, how long you've been married, but then zoom us into the moment of discovery and disclosure and take us from there.

She looked, she looked at me first, so I think that means I got to go first. Yeah, what an honor to be hanging out with you guys on Friday night. So nowhere else we'd rather be. Thank you. Um, yeah, some high-level stuff. We're in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Uh, we have been married 20 years this year.

Uh, you nailed it.

Yeah, I, I appreciate you giving me a couple seconds to like deck that one out so I didn't have to answer it on the spot. Uh, we have 3 awesome kids, 15, 14, 10, and we, yeah, professionally are now getting to do the work of helping others heal, and, um, our story is a big part of that. Um, yeah, I mean, to dive right in, you know, our discovery journey, you know, for Maggie. Our D-Day was, uh, was 14 years ago. Uh, we just hit the 14-year mark. And, um, I had secret sexual behavior from the time that I was little, and, uh, it grew and it grew and it grew and it grew until I couldn't handle keeping it a secret anymore. And all of that came out at once to Maggie, uh, 14 years ago. And it was, I definitely will not speak for her, but it was such a just earth and world-shattering thing. And, you know, I know you could talk a lot more about that, Trey.

What was that moment like for you? Specifically, Xuma, what happened? How did you find out?

Yeah, there was a knock on our door. Someone came and had information that started to unravel. A bunch of questions. And I would say in one night, we ended up staying up all night that night and kind of hashing through the millions of questions I had. Um, prior to this, I had known that porn was a struggle in his life when we were in college, but I thought it was so great because he told me and he was seeking accountability for it. And naively, I thought that was great. I didn't ever ask again. I thought when we got married it would, um, fix that problem. And then I found it one other time in marriage, and we did some counseling and put stronger, you know, protocol in our house and on our devices. But I didn't know that there was an entire secret sexual life going on, um, under the surface, that when we went to counseling, what I found was like the tip of the iceberg. So we were 7 years into marriage, and we had a 1-and-a-half-year-old and a 4-week-old. So I just put a newborn down for the night and, um, or the night for, for whatever stretch of hours I was going to get. And, um, and then we got this knock on the door on like a Sunday night at like 10 o'clock, and it just led to a ton of questions, a ton of information. And I think he was pretty broken and pretty like knew that at that point, like, he's kind of at a dead end and had to kind of come clean on, on some things.

Um, and even that, even that was such a process. I mean, I was pretty good at admitting to what, uh, she knew about or what she could know about, but just the, the, the shame that I was carrying over the rest of it that I probably couldn't have even named as shame back then. Um, I continued to, to hide and, and cover up and minimize and partial truths and half-truths. And so the process to become broken I mean, it, it was definitely a process of a few weeks for me, um, in that journey.

Yeah, but I would say in that night, my— I was mind blown. Like, everything I thought I knew up until that point was completely shifted.

Yeah.

Um, I had a newborn, and I within days, like, could no longer nurse my newborn. Um, just like lots and lots of physiological impacts and shock and, um, PTSD pretty heavily came on later. But in that, there was just such a season of shock. I was just so caught off guard and pretty wrecked. Um, and then we had a handful of weeks of staggered disclosure where I was piecing more information together, and he would say, that's it, there's nothing else. And then I'd unravel another detail. Um, and after a few weeks of that, then we ended up having a little bit of a separation before we went and did our own treatment and got into to, um, a CSAT, a certified sexual addiction therapist, um, who could then start kind of guiding the process of recovery.

And I think just a couple things I'll lean into for that. I remember it was maybe that first night or that second night, I remember you went to the other room and you locked the door. And I just remember almost as in my mind, even I know that I had these secrets, but I remember being so confused I remember her saying, like, I don't know who you are. Like, I don't know if you'll hurt me. I don't know who you are anymore. And I remember that was so hard to comprehend at the time of like, well, no, I'm still— I'm still Nate. I just have these pieces of me. But that was like my first beginning to understand that, like, everything that she thought she knew was flipped on its head and it was going to be a really long process to understand or put that back together. She didn't feel safe. With me.

Yeah, I mean, I had never heard of stories like this before mine, and so I literally felt like I was in like a real-life 20/20 episode and like just didn't know what could happen or what he was capable of anymore. And I was genuinely, um, so shook that I was like, my physical safety, I was afraid. And he's never ever even raised his voice at me. I'm more violent than he is. And, um, but it just like everything I thought I knew was completely shook.

Yeah, Maggie, uh, you know, thank you so much for just sharing a little bit about the physical, the mental, the emotional, the PTSD, uh, how it affected you. Speak to the individual that's listening. Maybe they're in the midst of betrayal or navigating that. I just thank you for validating. I know when my wife experienced my betrayal 29 years ago, she definitely had symptoms and needed to get to a safe place. And so separation was a piece of our story as well, but just speak to the betrayed partner who's listening, maybe today need a little hope and encouragement.

Yeah, absolutely. I think especially in the Christian world, like, no one gave me permission. I felt like I was sinning if I went to bed angry or if we slept in different rooms, and I really needed someone to give me permission to be like, you know what, boundaries are really healthy. They're like, you need them right now for your safety. But they are also incredibly healthy. Um, and, and we now doing this work on the other side, like, see that most people don't get really healthy in marriage if one's not fully committed to recovery, but the other one is not willing to lay down boundaries, even if they're hard. If both of those things don't exist, it's really, really hard, um, to get there healthily, to get there well, I guess is what I would say. Um, so yeah, I mean, I would just say like you have permission to have boundaries. It is not unbiblical to hold boundaries, to, to require your partner to treat you with love, with respect, with dignity, with safety, with care. Um, that is completely within the bounds of what Christ wants in our marriages.

Yes.

Um, and I just needed to get like that permission and be okay with that and say, even if I'm separating, I can be at peace going, this is not what I want, this is not what I think God wants, but it's not on me to hold together a facade of, of what God wants. Um, and I would just say any physiological stuff you're dealing with, like, you, you just got to keep fighting to get treatment because you can get treatment. You can— once you get some safety, you can do some work to to minimize some of the symptoms. I was caught for a while in quite a steep rage cycle when I was like unraveling things and finding out, and I would get these staggered disclosures. And we can kind of laugh and joke about it now, but I think if there was an Olympic sport of hurling a bottle across the room at someone, I definitely— baby bottle, baby bottle, I had a newborn. But I became like incredibly precise with my aim. And it's like, we do joke about it now laughingly, but like, it was a really, really deeply sad time. And I— that's not my character. That's not the kind of person I've been. And there was just— I had to really get some intervention. And so I would say if you're finding yourself raging, it's totally normal part of this. I like— I feel immense shame over it that I've had to really work through. Um, but it starts with like being brave to tell your helper, to tell them that, you know what, I'm doing things in my rage, I'm out of control, I'm doing things I'm not proud of. Um, I just like get out of body and go red and just have these reactions. Um, I had to really like speak that to get some accountability on my end and some help to say like, that's not helpful and that's damaging me because I feel shame afterwards. Um, it's not good for children if they're around or in, in the room. And honestly, now on this side of things, I have such sadness. I get why, but I have such sadness that he had to endure some of that rage as well.

Yeah, you mentioned a CSAT, Certified Sexual Addiction Therapist, or like a coach in this arena. And that's what you two are now. You're, you're helping other couples. And so people can literally get a hold of you or find resources like you out there, Maggie. And that's what, that's what you had mentioned about that. And I just want to say, I am so grateful, uh, Nate, that for whatever reason, you know, exposure is only to heal us, not to destroy us. You know, exposure in God's mind isn't to destroy us, it's to heal us. Uh, the unexposed is the unhealed. And so when we get exposed, it's, it's for the good of us to heal. And I just would say, Maggie, thank you so much that, um, You're taking, you know, your, your worst day and you're, you're showing up for other individuals on their worst day to give them some tools and handholding as they're navigating toward hope, healing, and freedom. So thank you so much.

Something I heard you say so clearly was that for the spouses that have been betrayed, laying down boundaries is actually the kindest thing you can do and is one of the highest predictors of success for the addict. And I know you guys have worked with a lot of couples. Not all couples make it. We are so pro-marriage here at Pure Desire, and we are also pro-safety of all men and women. And yes, the story, it will always unfold. But just to say, I know you guys are working with couples, you've been invited to participate. This is 14 years later. We are 14 years later. It's been a long story. What would you have to say to the man or woman or the couple that's watching, saying there's not hope for our marriage.

Yeah, I think you are in the right spot if you're feeling that. Like, that's— that— I don't know there's a way to go through this without feeling that. I mean, I'll speak to the other side of what she said. I remember so many times as I was staggering in my mind, it's like, if these details, these couple other details come out, our marriage is over. She'll never talk to me again. And, oh, those were such hard moments. But I'm so— I look at those boundaries now as grace, that it allowed me to go get the help I needed. And it's not fun. And it was the, the literally the worst experience that I've been through. I know it touches nothing of what she's been through, but the boundaries that she did lay down, I mean, the first time that she met with the CSAT and came home and said, I was still staggering, and said, there's this thing called a disclosure, and I'm going to need a polygraph before this is going to work. And I know that's not everybody's story, but that was certainly needed in our, in our case. I had a panic attack. I mean, I literally thought I was going to die because it was the first time I didn't have control. But I needed that in order to push me off the ledge, so to speak, in such a helpful way that there's freedom underneath. And it doesn't feel like there's freedom down below. It feels like death. And I'm so thankful for those boundaries. And so what would I say? I would say that I've been there. And if you'd have told me that 14 years later we would not only be in a healthy marriage or fighting to have health, but helping other people, I would have laughed at you. I'd have said that there's absolutely no way you're, you're insane for even proposing that idea. And, um, look where we are. God, God came through in a way that I never could have. He breathed life into something that was completely dead.

Yeah, not to be cliché with like recovery terminology, but I would say in crisis you just have to take it a day at a time and do the next right thing and not get too carried away with like what's it going to look like a year from now. Um, you have to just go a day, like day by day by day, and slowly over time, like, God revealed his direction for us. And, and over time, I, I had this like watch and wait and a whispering of like, okay, maybe you can lean in, maybe you can trust, maybe you can. Um, and I actually got to go to a women's conference today, and like in the middle of it, I was like, I sent him a text, and from the most genuine place, like, I am so proud of the man you are, and I just am encouraged by that today at this women's conference. And like, I never thought I would be able to speak those words from the depths of my heart, not just to say them fakely, but like, I am so proud of who he is and so deeply in love with him in such a profound way because of the work he's done and where we've traveled. And what I would also say is, if there's two people who genuinely want to work at things and you can feel empathy and you humble yourself, then this can work if you do the work. But you got to get with the people and be in groups and surround yourself with like-minded people and do the work.

Well said, Maggie. They're not clichés. They're just mantras that are true, that if we, if we rehearse them, they can help us. The next right step. Humility looks good on everybody. Empathy. The program works if you work it. Getting good, competent, guides to help you take the next step. And I'm just really grateful, Maggie. You serve on our board. You serve us very, very well. Your discernment and leadership is helping our organization. Thank you both for being Team 58, as my hat would say, giving back in so many ways to help other people. And I know you're not throwing bottles, but you have a mean pickleball. I've heard you two are pretty good at pickleball. And that's what I thought of when you said, "Is there anything else I'd rather be?" I'm thinking, they would like to be playing pickleball right now.

If I hit you with a pickleball, it was intentional.

It was intentional, right?

Right, guys. Thanks so much for joining us tonight. Uh, there's so much more we could say, but we're gonna, we're gonna turn the corner. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you all.

Appreciate it.

See ya.

Rodney, love stories, so good, John.

We, uh, we barely have time to talk about Team 58 or Pure Desire because we're just one after the other.

Look at Sam on this, would you? What a picture.

I say we, uh, we've got our next couple coming all the way from Long Beach, California. Sam and Deborah, thanks so much for joining us. We've got you on. Yeah, how are you guys?

Good.

Great.

Hi Rodney, hi everybody.

Wow.

So good to see my friends on the corner of, uh, Monlase and Phil— Fiddler, right?

That's a good try.

That's a good try. The corner where you live is where the action happens in Long Beach. That's all I want to say. Yeah, it is the healing house of Long Beach, California, for sure.

Thank you.

Before we jump in, I just want to say something really clearly, uh, Team 58 truly is a community, and here's why. I don't know if we would even know Sam and Deborah if it wasn't for Team 58 attending a summit, coming to a fundraising dinner, choosing to give, and then us getting to be in their neck of the woods a couple different times and getting to know them. Just to say, Sam and Deborah, thank you for your monthly generosity. Thank you for being on the team. But we also know that your story is so much more than just monthly generosity. And so because we only have 10 minutes, I really want to take this two places. Okay, you take us to where your healing began, but then I also want to hear deeply about how God has begun to multiply that— of what he's done in you hasn't just stayed in you or been for you, but been for so many more people. So take us back, where did your healing begin? And then let's end with, and what is God doing?

Well, back about, uh, 13, 12, 13 years ago, I was absolutely, um, at my wit's end when it came to porn use. And, uh, just, uh, it had affected my relationships, my professional life, my spiritual life, all of that, and had devastated me. And I, in desperation, I got so desperate for help and so much at my wit's end, I did something unthinkable. Get ready for this. I told my pastor, I told them, look, I know I've done music ministry for a long time, and, um, I really don't, I really don't care about that anymore. All I care about is I want to get freed. I've just seen this cycle in my life. I don't know what the heck it is. All I know is I keep going back to porn. And promising myself I, I wouldn't go back there again. And then my pastor did something even more crazy, and he pulled out this thing called the SAST, the Sex Addiction Screening, uh, screening test. Yeah. And I scored— I think I scored a record high of— I think it was— I can't remember what the number was, but he, he immediately was inspired to direct me to a Pure Desire group.

That's the one test you don't want to pass, by the way.

Well, he sent me the Pure Desire group. Of course, I had— I didn't, uh, I remember getting in this group of guys and realizing that it— I've done this before. I've gotten into men's groups before. How is this going to be any different? Well, it was different, um, because I began to learn how to be honest, how to, how to get out of the shadows and really share, uh, my life, my traumas, um, my just all of that stuff. And I, I learned how to have relationships with men, actually intimate, honest, caring, loving relationships with men. Uh, it made a huge impact and difference in my life and she started seeing the difference, and my sobriety started showing the difference. And so, um, it was interesting because I remember pleading with Deborah at one point, and this will be part of her story too, she can say, would, would you think about maybe possibly going to a Pure Desire, um, summit thing with me? They're having a mini summit down in San Diego. Maybe possibly you could consider, uh, and she said yes, um, Okay, but can we switch over to her version of that story?

Let's switch over.

Okay.

So, um, yeah, Sam had asked me, um, several months into the program. I don't think the first time he asked me, he hadn't— he didn't have sobriety yet. Um, and he said, would you be interested in attending a group. It's called Betrayal and Beyond, and it's for, um, for wives of guys like me. And I said, absolutely not. I said, I've had a few years of counseling. I'm an addiction counselor. No thank you. And then, um, I think it was really fear, um, fear of just dealing with the trauma. Uh, so when he invited me to the mini conference, it was right around his sobriety date, and I said yes. I think God had been working on my heart, and he, um, he knew I was struggling with resentment and anger. And so I went, and I immediately knew that God was speaking to my heart, and he said, you need this. And so I, um, ordered the book— or no, then, um, we met for breakfast with our pastors, and, um, Dawn, our, um, pastor's wife, she said you would really benefit from this. They were our, our, um, mentors. And so I said, okay, that's all I need to hear. I'm going to order my books. And within a few weeks, I started. And It was, it was amazing.

Yeah, your pastors— I gotta just say, I love your pastors because they were self-aware, they knew tools, and they knew how to direct you to resources. Thank you, pastors in the Long Beach area. Way to go.

Yeah, I had mentioned to other pastors in the past and I got answers like, um, don't do it again and just talk to me next week and I'll make sure, uh, you know, you're not doing that anymore, and if so, you're gonna, you know, get it. And then, or take a cold shower and all these things, and it just added up to so much, uh, just continued shame and frustration. So yeah, thank God that there was a pastor that had a response that was competent and helpful.

So just in the last 5 minutes, y'all both get into groups, give us just a snapshot. How many years did it take of you navigating, finding sobriety, navigating relapse Walking Through Betrayal and Beyond before you began leading, and then let's be sure to end with what is happening in Long Beach.

Yeah, well, for me it was about 2 to 3 years, um, it took before I got my sobriety. I'm gonna have 10 years of sobriety in September.

Oh, praise God!

So that's freedom from, you know, the compulsive lust and masturbation and porn and And, uh, you know, that's made a dramatic impact in our lives, in our relationship.

Deborah, how did you handle the first 2 to 3 years as he's in amidst recovery, relapsing? What was that like for you?

Well, I was pretty much in kind of consumed with caregiving and, and I really, uh, he was living at his mom's half the time. And so it, I I just really wasn't paying attention because when he came in with the sobriety chip, I was shocked. I had no clue that he was— yeah, I just had no clue. Um, but I had seen, as I, in hindsight, I had seen some of the behaviors changing when he was there. He wasn't isolating. He wasn't doing a lot of the stuff that he used to do when his, um, when his cycle started. And so it was I, I could see the difference.

At what point did you guys move back in together?

When my mom passed away.

Wow.

I had nothing to do with that.

It was natural.

Yeah. Yeah.

When my mom passed away, it was really difficult with my mom with dementia. Um, her, he, he was a trigger for her and, and, uh, so it was best that it was actually, yeah, a great, um, It was a blessing, but it was also really hard.

Yeah.

And then ministry. Oh, so go ahead, Rodney.

Oh, you go ahead. You go ahead.

Oh, so yeah, we were talking about, you know, so I'll talk about, um, you know, when, as soon as I was halfway through my, um, group, which was about a year and a half after Sam's, uh, freedom, we call it freedom date. Um, I felt the Lord calling me to start facilitating. I'd completed my group and I wanted to get started. And so it started then. And, um, I just like the first day I walked into group, I felt like it was a sacred space. It— I just felt so safe, scared but safe. And so, um, that was a feeling I wanted to make sure the gals felt, anyone who came in my group. So now I don't know how many groups I've facilitated. Let's just say several. All of the girls that have completed their group, we call it a sacred milestone. And all of the girls that are currently in group, I do mixed meetings with them. We go for coffee, we go for breakfast. We go for dinner. We have a Christmas tea that last— I think this year we had 20 girls. And then as girls are invited in while they're waiting for group to start, I'll invite them to an event with the other girls so they can, you know, start having that conversation. And then we now we've started inviting them to family and friend gatherings. Which was really cool, um, because they didn't know each other. These are my graduates and, um, girls that I think feel really safe around our friends. Um, and it was awesome. It was Cinco de Mayo. We had a party Cinco de Mayo with 30 people on our boat.

Imagine how many women right now watching who've navigated betrayal or looking for help are like, wait, how do I find Deborah and move into her neighborhood.

Well, the other thing is, is growing leader, you know, growing leaders out of the group, recognizing those that have a, have a, a real empathic heart, a heart for other women, the ones that pray. Just, yeah, those are the ones that, yeah.

Samuel and Deborah, I just want to say thank you guys, Sam and Deborah, for not only just loving yourselves enough to go get help and find resources But now you are creating places where men can find true intimacy and have intimacy with not having to sexualize it, but just to be seen, known, and loved in a sacred, safe place. Deborah, man, that, that's so beautiful for women who their worst fear has, has come about and they're in their, their lowest low, a safe, sacred place to be seen, known, and loved. And I've been at your home. I've seen it. It's like the— it's the book of Acts happening right in your home, meeting house to house. It's, it's happening in that place, I'm telling you. And, uh, it's beautiful now that you're really a part of a movement. What's happening in Long Beach is a part of a movement that we really believe that God's raising up men and women just like you all across the country, all across the world, who this is where God's inviting them. And I just want to say thank you because you guys heard I think a sacred prompting to take your next step and help other people. And that was only your motivation, the help you received. You wanted to help others. So what would you two say to another couple that's maybe listening today, uh, that you would want to encourage?

Hmm.

Go for the things that you don't think you can do because God can do them through you. And embrace the pain. And, um, what would you say?

I'd say there's help, there's hope, there are resources more than ever right now, from introductory, um, Conquer series all the way to, um, you know, learning empathy skills for your wife. And now just lately, um, you know, couples, uh, groups. And, uh, so there's just So much available, and, uh, that's just growing. And, and, uh, it's super exciting because there's even for youth, we had a little bit of a gap as far as reaching youth. And now with the, uh, Eskridges, you know, Greta Eskridge, and, uh, they're helping us, um, reach the children and youth. So it's becoming more comprehensive, the whole offering that, that we have down there.

And this group, these groups are safe, sacred places where you will maybe be— we call it the sisterhood that you never wanted to join becomes a sisterhood that you've always— where you've always wanted to belong.

Wow.

So well said. Sam and Deborah, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, your story is a gift, not just to us, but to anybody watching, as well as to hundreds of people in Long Beach. And may there be hundreds and thousands more who find a safe place of belonging thanks to you guys. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

Thank you guys.

Thanks guys. We'll see you both.

See ya.

Bye-bye.

And if you're watching this livestream and you're like, I didn't know I could hear this many powerful stories back to back, everybody needs to hear this, would you please give this a like, a heart, a share, a comment? Every like, every heart, every share, every comment just boosts this to a couple more people. So please like, comment, share. What has been the most eye-opening moment so far? Before we get into the last story, just comment. What are you feeling? What have you heard so far? What's been helpful for you?

And John, two things I want to share before our next guest joins us real quickly here. Two things. If you need help, you can get help. PureDesire.org. And if you're here and you're saying, wow, that's my story and I've gotten help before, hey, let's help others. You can join Team 58, go to that same website, PureDesire.org, and be a part of Team 58 and give back to help other people.

Yeah, well said. To close, we're going all the way to the great state of Pennsylvania where we've got friends Dylan and Elijah joining us. Uh, Pennsylvania is a long ways from Oregon. It's a long ways from the West Coast, and it's late. I mean, we're talking, we're talking 9 o'clock. Is that right, Dylan?

Elijah, super late over here on the East Coast.

We may or may not have both taken like a 2-hour nap earlier though, so we're vibing right now. I love it.

So good to see you guys.

Yeah, you too.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

It's been fun to go from, again, stories of addiction to understanding a little bit more about betrayal to what it looks like for recovering couples. And Dylan, Elijah, we're really excited to get to end with you guys, uh, to get to kind of go back into more of the next generation of what if we could have this story before marriage and before 10 years or 20 years or 30 years goes by. What does it look like before marriage? So Dylan, Elijah, just to jump right in, where did you grow up and when did you get exposed to porn, but then also access to pure desire?

Um, I guess I'm going first. Uh, so I grew up in Ohio, kind of on a small farm in Ohio, and I was exposed to porn kind of early on, like around 6th, 7th grade, through like Sports Illustrated, and kind of that was a gateway drug into the whole world of porn. That kept going throughout my life until I got to graduating grad school. I think during undergrad I had, I had like listened to a Pure Desire podcast here or there. So I was like a little bit familiar. And then after a low period during grad school, I reached out because I wanted to, I wanted to do counseling and I was like really set on doing counseling. I was like, I want the strongest thing you got, give it to me. And I did not want to do groups at all. I was like, this is not for me. And so I get on my, my 15-minute consultation for counseling, and whoever was talking to me is like, no, you can't really do that. And I'm like, I'm like, surely, surely I can do counseling.

Please, Lord, please no group.

And they were like, no, but like there's a group starting in your area, and like a couple, a couple days. Like, if you want to jump in, you can jump in. And so after that, I finally gave in and was like, yeah, I'll join group. And, um, got involved in a group, and that was one of the best decisions I've made. So, um, yeah, kind of my origin story there.

Yeah, yeah. So I was born, born and raised in Downingtown, Pennsylvania. I was first exposed to pornography around 8 or 9, uh, on my parents' computer. I don't really remember how I got there. I, I don't even remember if I knew what I was searching up or not, but I, I found it online and very quickly knew that I needed to close the door and lock it. Um, so that was my exposure. And then, um, kind of junior year of high school, started realizing it, it was a problem and just had like incredible amounts of anxiety, knew that I was just going down a wrong path. And in college, I, I met a CSAC counselor, um, and was able to see him for 3 years, and that kind of got the ball rolling. But I didn't have a group space where I could really connect with guys daily, weekly, and dig into it and do life with them. And then that kind of came last May when I graduated, um, from undergrad and moved in with Elijah, and he was already in groups, so he kind of stuck out his neck for me. There was 8 guys in a Seven Pillars group with, like, including our leader— no, plus, plus the leader. There's 8 guys and 1 leader, and, and the leader, like, just let me in. So we had 10 guys total in our Seven Pillars group.

The guy that didn't want a group is now actively engaging and recruiting others for good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. I would say, Dylan, Elijah, what was one of the biggest things you guys learned in group or have found, or to, you know, as you begin connecting the dots of your story? Because we all know that porn is not the problem, it is just a poor solution to past pain or trauma or grief that we haven't processed or dealt with. What have been some of the connection points in your story?

Yeah, I mean, for me, prior to group, I didn't really have anybody that I was like real close with. I didn't have super close friends, didn't really have anybody that knew my story at all. I mean, there were parts of my story that I hadn't really told anybody. And through group, you like go through and start to dig out. Some of those things. And, uh, you, you let go of the secrets that you're holding on to. You let go of the, the deep pain that you have, um, and start to expose that. And over time, you bring that to the light, and God works with it there. Um, and so I think that was like one of the big things where I was like feeling alone and broken and undesired. And I got to a group where I was like able to expose some of the things that were making me feel alone and isolated and bringing them to the surface to a place where like these guys just kept coming and pouring into me over and over again and making me feel desired and cared for. And also within that, like a space where I realized that being broken wasn't really something that mattered as much, and it was something that I was able to like give away and and be vulnerable with. And that kind of—

yeah, well said, Dylan. You know, brokenness is our contribution to the equation, right? We, we show up saying, I need help, and I, I'm not all together. And I think that's where, uh, God just, uh, really loves to meet us because, you know, they recognize that we needed help from the get-go. So, so grateful you found that group.

He makes our brokenness beautiful.

Yeah, for sure. How about you, Elijah? What's some of your takeaways?

Yes, yes. So, um, one of my, one of my biggest takeaways was I, throughout my entire life, I realized all the different protective mechanisms that I've used to keep others away and not see like the parts of me that I don't want other people to see, and the different weaknesses that different incompetencies that I've learned to just shield people away from. For the first time, I was kind of like, well, shoot, I have to really get real to these guys about who I am, the parts of me that I'm not proud of. And I had shared my story before with other people, but I hadn't shared it like I had to share it in group. And that, that confession, like, there was a moment, um, during group, I don't remember, it was the lesson where it gives you the question, how do you feel about yourself?

Yeah.

And I had come off of like a really challenging year and I was just like, on the surface I was looking good, but like on the inside I was a wreck. Like there's so many false beliefs and pain points and wounds that I was carrying. And I was just walking wounded. And I shared that question like with the group, and we both did. And after that lesson, like, like after the Zoom was off, we were just like— I think Elijah said it, he was like, dude, I feel like the woman at the well. Like, like God loves me so much. Like, love right now. And that was kind of like That was the first moment for me where I was like, holy cow, like, being a son is not just a thing written on a piece of paper, but like, it's actually true. Like, I believe that.

You felt it for the first time?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so that was just like a really awesome breakthrough, and, and that continues to be like a, a path that we have to walk on because it, it's still not easy. Like there's still things that get in the way and take you off of that truth.

So yeah, yeah, it's beautiful that you felt safe with those brothers in group. I love to say that Christ in the other brother spoke to the lie in you that you couldn't be real, honest, or seen. And the woman at the well, I love that because, right, Christ saw her, knew all about her, and yet, yet invited her into this living water. And she, she went back to her town and started groups, you know. She might have been the original, uh, Pure Desire group member, uh, of Psycho. Yeah, Unravel, way before Ashley Jameson. I mean, she was inviting women to throw it down and get help, you know what I'm saying? And I just want to say thank you, guys. I want to say this: our greatest need is connection and intimacy. Thank you for finding that single and managing your sexuality in healthy ways. What a gift should you choose to marry, you two, uh, other, uh, other individuals, that what a gift you will be because you're learning how to love yourself well, and now you're going to learn how to love others well. So I'm proud of you both.

Thanks, man.

Just as we wrap up, uh, your healing didn't just stay in group. What then happened? What happens in this basement of the house that y'all live in with roommates?

Yeah, so we got We got 4 guys in the same house, um, and one of the things that actually John gets the credit for this, but early on in my, in my journey, John challenged me to start sharing my story with people, um, and my— the challenge that I was given was to share my story with one person a month, um, and so I started to do that, um, so I think to date I've shared with like 50 50+ people. Um, but that— yeah, and it's been inconsistent throughout. But one of the blessings that we got to do— I'm, I'm one of the assistant coaches at Messiah for, for men's soccer, and Dylan, Dylan played there. Um, so this last fall, uh, I got the opportunity to share with 25 guys, um, on the soccer team. Uh, we had 16 of 25 show up for group the next week. The numbers dwindled a little bit later on, but it was still really cool to like see just their hunger and desire to find healing. Even in like, I don't know, Dylan and I aren't perfect and like our— we're falling forward most days, but we're trying to keep walking. But like meeting those guys in vulnerability and like being able to share with them in that and show them that like, hey, we're, we're older than you and like we've walked where you've walked, but we're also like still working on it and growing, um, has been a really cool opportunity. We actually, the guys just had their like final, like finals this last week, and so we had our final group last week and they were just like sharing a little bit about like what they've learned and kind of reflecting back on, on the group experience. And the number— we had a number of guys that were just like so excited, not only for like what group looks like for them in the future, but also like guys excited about sharing with like siblings or like being able to start walking alongside other people in that. And so to see not only like our own healing start to go to other people, but their healing start to go to other people after That was not really something I expected that fast.

Yeah.

Thanks for— Elijah, thanks for sharing your story. One a month. What a great challenge. You're like a shame buster in Pennsylvania. You're just busting shame, you know? And now the whole soccer team's hearing it and other people are turning, sharing their stories. What we model is more important than what we say. You modeled something beautiful. And I just— I'll give a shout out to this guy, John. He encourages everybody to share. Vulnerability, John would say, is our superpower, right? And it's the secret sauce. And thank you for just saying, I'm known, seen, and loved, right? Good news, you can be that too. Uh, thank you so much for sharing that, Elijah.

Dylan and Elijah, we're at the top, but just to say thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh, I see Christ in you guys so clearly, and it isn't about perfection, it is about progress. To becoming more and more and more like Christ. And your guys' faithfulness to the continuation of the journey is one of my favorite parts about you. Uh, I love you guys. Thanks for, thanks for sharing here, uh, and giving so many single guys, or hopefully gals as well, just encouragement. One, that they're not alone. Uh, two, that this work matters, and getting to do it in community is so integral. So may many, many, many more men and women in y'all's area in PA get to give— get to receive the gift of y'all's stories. Like Rod said, the shame would be broken and that people would take that step into the sense of belonging and love that's always on offer for them. Thank you, thank you for sharing tonight.

I love how Christ made you two. Uh, you're beautiful in all the great ways. There's probably a lot of grandmas that are in their 50s praying that you guys find their granddaughters. You know what I'm saying? Like, you guys are— just keep being you because it's just beautiful. Yeah, exactly. It's beautiful who Christ made you guys, and you just keep leaning in. We— the world needs more, uh, Dylans and more Elijahs. So thank you for being who you are.

Thanks, Rodney.

Thank you for joining us, guys, tonight. See ya.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

See you guys.

Rob, that's it.

Wow. But also energized, John, without going 9 hours of stories, you know.

I agree.

Uh, my cortisol levels are high in a good way of all this good energy, and I think I'll rest well tonight. You know, John, what stood out to you the most just as we wrap here? What, uh, what, what, what's on your heart space, or what opened your heart in listening to these stories?

I think I'm just really grateful for the depth. And as you're watching, feel free to drop a comment as we reflect. Just to close, do the same. Again, heart, share, like, get this in front of more people. We believe that vulnerability is a superpower, and you just received the gift of so much vulnerability. And so would you please, please share it? But just simply drop a comment. How are you walking away feeling after this live stream? For me, Rod, I would honestly say, uh, I'm just grateful at the broadness. I think sometimes when we engage the conversation around sexuality We just get so stuck in the lane of male addiction. And so to have not only Isabel share from a female who struggled, but also the conversation around betrayal— I know for you, with you and Tracy almost 30 years ago now, there was no help. And so to get to offer a narrative of compassion and hope and competency with resources and community for women struggling or women betrayed, I'm just grateful. I'm grateful to participate.

Yeah, I always just— my heart goes out for the betrayed partner, whether you're male or female. There are people and resources to help you. Uh, for all the addicts out there that feel like they're not worthy of love, of course we're all addicted to our way of thinking and we're all in need of recovery, every human. But I just would say, in the area of sexuality, Pure Desire is a wonderful resource. PureDesire.org. Uh, you can get help there, a consultation. Send an email, find a group on the group links. You can get a consultation for counseling. And then I just want to say too, um, those of us that have received help that are listening today, hey, let's be the answer to someone's prayer. I love that, right? Let's be part of the answer, not part of the problem anymore. And I think about resources, John, that were misguided in my life to unhealthy sexual brokenness. Now those resources get to be brought into the light as our One of our heroes, Cynthia, says, and, and bring it into the light, and, and let's, let's beat the darkness.

Yeah.

And so just thank you, all of our 400+ Team 58 members now, uh, for giving back and making this possible today.

Yeah, I was just say, if you're, if you're watching and you're inspired and you know what healing is like, we would so invite you to join this community of people, because the lie of addiction or betrayal is that you're alone. And sometimes even in the lane of recovery or healing, or even leading groups, the same lie creeps back in. You're the only one who cares about this. You're the only one in this city or this state. And it's just not true. Like Rodney said, we have over 400+ people choosing to give back monthly, and we would be so honored to invite you to join today. So just to close simply by saying, wherever you are, you're not alone. You are worthy of love, and your story matters.

Absolutely.

Yep.

John, thank you so much. What an honor.

Yeah, what a gift. We'll see you next year, Team 58.