Telling My Future Spouse My Story | Ep. 478

John and Haley, welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast.

Pumped to be here and pumped to have Haley.

I'm happy to be here.

Yes, for the first time, John Begumman as a married man. You, you probably know Haley, but we have foreshadowed your relationship on the podcast of like, hey, he's now a dating man. He was an engaged man.

Gradually come out.

And now he's a married man on the podcast for the first time. And, and no, seriously, we're really excited and grateful to have you guys on. Because as we were talking about before the podcast, I think this is a category that we've said, uh, is the ideal, like that a couple would be able to deal with a lot of their stuff earlier in life before marriage. They'd, they'd be able to be honest in dating and then in marriage have more of a framework of healthy sexuality rather than, as so many of us did, dragging a lot of unhealth into our marriage and then having to deal with it post-marriage. And so we're excited just to let you kind of share your story as a way to encourage other singles early dating, engaged couples, just to think about how do we navigate sexuality and brokenness in a world that increasingly just embraces it, or maybe does the opposite and sweeps it under the rug and tries to act like it's not there.

Yeah.

And you guys have walked a different road. So, uh, tell us just a little bit about your journey as a couple, uh, partic— in particular, like, how, John, did you share your story of recovery from pornography, and what was that experience like for you, Hayley?

Yeah, well, it just makes me laugh a little bit because my brothers, if they were here, would be like, "We all knew John was going to share his story on date one." Da da da da da. But before I get there, just to give some background, if somebody doesn't know my story, just a bullet point: was exposed to porn at nine, struggled with pornography and masturbation throughout high school and college, had applied to become a missionary with Campus Crusade for Christ out of college, where they said, "We can't hire you." And I'm like, "What?" And they're like, "Unless you go through Pure Desire counseling." And I'm like, "Oh, counseling's for broken people." And they're like, "Yes, John.

God anticipated your." brokenness.

So in 2020, I got into a group for the first time, but from 13 until 23, it's almost a decade of being a young teenager and young adult and single, I had navigated porn addiction and masturbation. And so for me, I had never been more than a month without some sort of acting out behavior. Like, I didn't even have a month of sobriety before I first joined a Pure Desire group. I just like want to Put a bullet point there for anybody who's listening and finds themselves single or navigating dating.

Sure.

And then, yeah, I went 10 months, like, of sobriety for the first time in that group. And like, my whole world flipped upside down. I didn't even realize that level of freedom was possible. And from 2020 until today, it's been over 6 years since I've viewed pornography and over 3 years since I've used masturbation as a coping, like, behavior. And so that's just a little bit of the context of how I was showing up in the dating realm of meeting Hayley here in Portland. So yeah, just a little bit of context.

So did you tell her on the first date or what? Like when and how did you share your story with Hayley? 'Cause that's for, I think many people like, how do I bring that up in my relationship and when?

Yeah, awkwardly, I had some shame around this because like in our community, even here in Portland, like I'm the porn guy. And friends like giving me a hard time of like, yeah, like you meet Jon and you know his story within the first 5 minutes, you know, because just that's just how I'm living life. Like, what do you do? And I'm like, ah, you know, here's some of my story.

Mm-hmm.

And so we sat down. I was super nervous. Dating felt really uncomfortable for me, as in I wasn't proficient in it. I didn't fully know what I was doing, and it felt like a risk for sure. And so After interrogating Haley, at least that's probably what it felt like a little bit with just rapid-fire questions. What did you even ask me? Do you remember what you asked me?

I had asked if the reason you moved to Portland was because of your job.

Yeah.

And then he goes, well, that's a great question. Let's start from the beginning. When I was 9.

Here we go.

And what he didn't know is that a couple months before, 3 months beforehand, we had met. He had added me on LinkedIn. And I was like, I want to learn about this guy a little bit. So I went to his page and there was a podcast that he had recently been on where he shared this entire story. And so then he's sitting across from me at lunch, starts sharing this very personal story, and I'm like, it's too late to tell him that I already know every word he's about to say.

So you just let him keep going? I did.

I think it took maybe a couple weeks to tell you.

Maybe a month later. She was like, I need to confess. I was like, oh. She's like, I had listened to a podcast. I'm like, are you kidding me? Because I was going on to tell her a story about like my first kiss. And she's like, I actually know this story. I was like, you do? What? How? She's like, I forget that you told your story. That's what I felt like. I'm so sorry if I've already told you this. And so, yeah, I remember you saying you're like, I was repeating your story verbatim. It's really predictable.

Well, I think— no, not predictable. I think you're a good storyteller. Like there was the piece about, you know, your mom and you're saying in honor, I Blah blah blah blah, or in honesty. And so like that piece, I remember him sitting there saying that, and I'm like, in honor, in honesty. So I think you're a good storyteller. But yeah, I wasn't expecting that on the first date.

How did it land with you? What was that like?

I'm not sure. I mean, I wasn't thrown off. I think I knew that this was like a very open part of your life. Like, like you said, most people who know you know that this is your story. Um, but yeah, that had never been my experience in the past. And I think at the time I probably didn't realize this, but looking back now, it started us off on like a really strong level of like safety and trust where I knew that, you know, even if there is brokenness and pain, Like honesty is the way forward.

Yeah, really, really early on in our dating relationship. And again, this is just so much of what group had taught me for 6 years, just this phrase of like, whatever you do, don't hide. And that became just the context of like, we want whatever foundation, right? We were just beginning dating. We didn't know where this would land, but just the foundation to be radical honesty that we weren't hiding from one another, whether that was emotionally, or from a past standpoint, or, you know, invulnerability, but being radically honest. Yeah.

I love that. That is so beautiful. All right, you guys are very connected to a large friend group. We hear a lot of that from John. Um, what have you seen happening among 20-somethings in the area of navigating pornography and other forms of sexual brokenness? And are couples being open about this in their dating relationships? Why or why not?

Yeah, and I guess I can start. It was about 3 years ago where— so I had moved to Portland to work for Pure Desire and had been in a church community for about a year or 2 and had like thought about starting like a group through kind of that network of young adults, but at the time was leading a group here with Mike Maxwell and just was really enjoying what some of the groups I'd been leading online. But anyways, began to pivot and just like inviting young adult men into a group. that happened to meet in my living room 3 years ago. And it's just been cool to see this cascade effect of, you know, a guy from that group went on to lead, and now they're leading their second group. And 3 years later, we're— I think there are 7 active Seven Pillar groups and 10 leaders or co-leaders.

Wow.

And primarily amongst the young adult men. And so it is funny, 'cause it's like, that's probably one of my favorite parts. Like, me and my friend bought a house, and we had 4 other roommates, and most of them had either been in the Pillars or went through the Pillars. And this conversation just became the norm of our house and our community. But Haley wasn't necessarily in the same community, and she's like— so like, in my mind, I'm like, our community is so radically open and honest. I'm like, well, I think some of that might just be the groups that we've gotten to build and create, because that becomes the culture, right, of anonymous and confidential and just the characterization of these PD groups is that, and it did trickle into our house. Um, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, I was trying to think of, um, kind of the opposite of that, like if I knew people who hadn't disclosed or shared, um, their past addiction or where they were at. Um, but I couldn't come up with anything because no one's talking about it, so I wouldn't know if people aren't sharing. Like, that's just them living in secrecy. So Yeah. Yeah, it just like wasn't a conversation beforehand.

Yeah, we— so I asked just to this point, I had asked some of my friends who'd been either in the groups or leading groups for some of their context. Me and my friend actually just sold this house, which feels like a big piece of like grief and loss and transition just in our community. But we sold it because 4 of them were engaged. And so it felt like the only way to graduate from this house of singles was to get married. And a lot of us began to graduate. And so we asked just 2 of my roommates who have either led or been in a group what their experience was. So I'm gonna read Brian's story, and then Haley's gonna read Joel's story of just like what their experience was like. Brian said, I was 3 years into recovery and deep in a 6-month binge when I met my wife. I knew I wanted to continue healing, but the next step of healing was too scary. Meeting my future wife on our first date reconnected me with reality. And he thought, maybe there's hope for my future again. I was terrified to lose the only good thing I had tasted in months, but I knew I had to do it. So I disclosed a condensed version of my story to her about 3 weeks in. It was a tough night for both of us, and because we both chose to stay, we grew individually and together. Rupture and repair.

Mm-hmm.

After 2 months, we were pretty serious, and I knew it was time to do a full telling of my story. Again, I was terrified, but I had experienced her understanding and grace once before in this area. And more importantly, I had been through two seven pillars of freedom groups, three intensive retreats, and hundreds of hours in friendship honing my story and beginning to understand it, connecting the dots and being held well by those listening. So I didn't dump my story on her; I shared it. I didn't dump a jumble of sexual sins; I told a cohesive narrative. It was hard for my future wife to hear. We both cried, but we both survived, and she wasn't crushed. Our foundation of trust today. was wrought in the heat of disclosure. And my encouragement to anyone listening is to be brave, get in a group, and then tell your partner everything they deserve to know. You'll either filter out a poor fit or you'll build the relationship of your dreams. In other words, this double bind is a win-win.

Mm-hmm.

And I just, again, there's something to story and just making it really practical. But, uh, even just in hearing that story, I'm like, man, The narrative isn't perfection. We're not asking singles to somehow find perfection. But man, I love the work that he had done personally to be able to show up with levels of honesty, not trauma dumping, but telling a cohesive narrative to invite her into some understanding that she could make an active choice to stay or to go.

Yeah.

And she chose to stay.

Yeah.

And they're now married, which is really beautiful.

Yeah.

That's cool. Yeah.

Here's Joel's story. I was in a level of sobriety when I first started dating my fiancée, but I had a lot to share with her about previous relationships. Throughout high school and college, I was in various relationships with a handful of women, none of which were pursuing a Christian sexual ethic, and I was not a virgin. I also navigated a deep and painful porn addiction for most of my 20s. My fiancée, on the other hand, had never dated anyone or even kissed anyone prior to our relationship. She had no experience with pornography. I'm so grateful for Pure Desire and the modeling of radical honesty that John showed me because I was open about my prior relationships, prior addiction, and current struggles from the get-go. Like, probably before we even started dating, she knew a lot about it. This was so helpful, especially in contrast with past relationships where I had hidden in the beginning and had to have painful reveal later in the relationship. Opening with honesty framed the conversation as her and me on the same side, fighting against temptation and sexual immorality, as opposed to her not trusting me and wondering if I was sharing everything with her. Granted, there were some especially, especially painful parts of my story I didn't tell her until years into our relationship, but I was honest about those too from early on. I told her that there were things I would definitely share with her someday but wasn't ready yet, and she was super supportive and patient with me. I think in part because of the framework of trust and safety we had set up from the beginning. Opening with honesty is scary because there's a legitimate and reasonable possibility of rejection. You might be met with, I don't know how to handle this, or, this isn't what I'm looking for. But I think I would rather have that conversation early on rather than waiting for it to be more painful. We are now a couple of months out from marriage, and I'm so grateful To say she knows everything I would be tempted to hide from anyone, and she still loves me. There's not a much stronger way I can imagine to break down the lie that you're unlovable than to be seen and known and accepted and loved.

Yeah.

Wow.

Those are, those are beautiful stories. And I, I think what I'm hearing is, in your experience, if someone has done some of their work, if they've done group or, and it doesn't have to be Pure Desire, but if, if they've faced some of their, uh, their patterns and are experiencing change and learning to walk in vulnerability with others, then that becomes the way that they approach their dating relationships. But that if that's not really part of their story yet, it still is, from your perspective, the cultural norm that we don't really know how to talk about it, right?

Yeah.

'Cause I think culturally we feel like, oh, young people are way more open, 'cause everybody's on their phone and everybody struggles, and maybe that's true. We're more open to talk about pornography in general, but when it comes to a one-on-one relationship with someone that I want to like me and accept me and maybe one day marry me, That's still a really difficult bridge to cross.

Well, I think this is where the context of like dating the dudes came in, which sounds like a funny phrase, but like that has become like a mantra in our community of singles pursuing recovery. Because for a lot of these guys, they barely know how to care for themselves, let alone another person, let alone build a romantic relationship that leads to like a beautiful covenant of marriage because of isolation, past pain, secrecy, addiction, all of these things that are just tethering them. I'm like, hey, before you ever begin dating a female, what would it look like for you to pursue another guy in this group with a level of intentionality, intimacy, honesty, openness? And to your point, like, these guys showed up in a relationship with their now-to-be wives with a level of safety because somebody had gone first for them.

Yeah.

They had sat through the group. They had shared their top 4 sexual secrets. They had to identify their top 10 most painful moments. And now they're just simply repeating or resharing some of the work that they've already fought in the trenches for and now getting to invite somebody else into that. Not with this, oh my gosh, I've never told anybody this, you know, will you be my therapist or my counselor trauma bonding, saying, hey, I've done a lot of work.

Yeah.

And I'm showing up to the table with a level of intentionality that isn't about secrecy or hiding.

And I think that's what I'm taking away from what I'm hearing is that if we're already doing some work to live in honesty, to face our issues, to not hide, to not live in secrecy, then dating kind of becomes an outflow of how we're learning to live our life versus what you said. I think some people feel like, well, when I meet the right person and they make me feel safe, I'll tell them everything. And yet if you're not learning to live in honesty in other relationships, it's going to be really, really difficult to do in that one as well. And, and so I think hopefully that's an encouragement someone can take out of this conversation to go, you know, I, I shouldn't be waiting if I'm single and I'm hoping to be married and I've got stuff in my life like Now is the best time. You know, now is the time to go work on these things and hopefully bring some of my ongoing recovery into that relationship and not wait for that relationship to be what spurs me into it. And the other thing you said that I heard in both those stories that I really appreciated, because my wife and I totally missed this, was the way they were able to tell about their struggle in the context of their story. Because I did just kind of, you know, download like, hey, let's share, let's be honest, like What's all the bad stuff you've done? And it was just kind of a bullet point list of what I could remember. Like I'd looked at porn, I'd done these things and dot dot dot. But it really wasn't until 10 years into marriage when we did Pure Desire that it was like, oh, there's a story here. As like Adrian Hickman says, what makes this make sense? That when I could put it together and actually then tell my wife, because I didn't know the story for myself really. I didn't see how it was connected. But when all that was connected for both, it was like, oh, This makes a lot more sense now. It's not just random poor choices. It's, it's how this has developed in your life. And that was where my wife said, I feel like I know you better than I ever have, because the whole story was together versus, like you said, just downloading all your bad stuff. That's not the goal here. It really is being able to share your whole story.

Yeah, I would say like your boyfriend or girlfriend or fiancé is not your therapist, and that's a good thing. And we'll get into it later of just navigating some of that, of me trying to play the armchair counselor, which hasn't always worked well in our relationship. But just to say, like, and you're worthy of help. You're worthy of beginning that journey and connecting the dots, whether that's with a therapist or recovery community. But please, please do not wait to put that weight— that worked out well. Don't wait to put the weight on a romantic partner.

That's—

Yeah.

Yeah.

That doesn't have to be the story.

Well, that was kind of our next question in terms of just relationships that you have seen around you or maybe that you have been in in the past or what, now that you have kind of walked this road, what would you expect if it happened differently? Because, John, we know you shared your recovery journey or it started before you met Hayley. So do you two have stories of friends or examples of those who began their recovery journey during the dating relationship? And how was that different, or how did that go for them?

Yeah, it's funny, as Hayley and I were chatting through this, we're like, no. Like, the simple answer is like, no, I don't know if we do, because of that level of just silence. Like, people aren't necessarily talking about this. I do know though for a fact, just another quote from our community, not to read it all the way through, but he just said like, in our friend group, there's been this idea specifically for these young adult men of like, hey, you're gonna wanna start your recovery before you start dating. And having a level of sobriety specifically before you start dating is really helpful to not invite a romantic partner into the pain and the mess of trying to fight for sobriety, but inviting them into some of that begun cohesive narrative.

Yeah.

Of I'm already beginning to make some sense of this, and I'm on a journey, and you are not my accountability partner, Like, you're not my savior. I want to build something beautiful here, but also I've got men and others or a therapist holding some of this weight for me and not having to put it on. Because we have had people in our community who have broke up or lost relationship because of this conversation coming to light. And I praise God for their honesty, right? Like entering with saying, hey, like I relapsed this week. And in fact, like, relapse is a part of my pattern, you know, on a weekly basis, and that shame is really killing me, and I'm not showing up well for myself, let alone you. And like, this isn't about you, but I don't think I'm in a place to date. And like, I hate that.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause I want everybody to be living in a level of health, and I love the honesty, and there's such tension to hold there. And so this is— I think this is to the point of this conversation about how to share your story with, the person you're dating or your fiancée or your spouse, like, there is real tension here. And my heart breaks for the men that I've watched lose relationship because of this. And yet I'm also so proud of them and the commitment they're making to their own recovery before inviting somebody else into that. Yeah. Any thoughts for you? You said it all.

Yeah, I think that's the reality of these are difficult topics, and they tend to be only more difficult the longer they go. You know, because a lot of the stories we do hear, because I feel like there are more resources for young men now. I mean, when I was in high school, it was kind of like true love waits, no sex until marriage, and outside of that, it's kind of like good luck, go figure it out. Whereas now there are some programs like Pure Desire or others that young men might be saying like, oh yeah, I dealt with that. But we have quite a few stories of those that then come back and appear to our group because they'll say, I told my spouse in dating that I was good, but I really wasn't. And I didn't know how to get honest that I still had some struggle. And then it's 8 years, 10 years into marriage and it's blown back up. And that feeling of deception for the spouse, like, I thought you said you were good.

Yeah.

And that might be the point I would bring out of what you shared there, John. I think it's really important that someone gets some traction but also not feel like they have to be perfect. You know, we're not making perfection the goal because that's actually what I see in some of these stories is that I feel like they told their dating partner or their future spouse, like, mostly I'm perfect now, I'm good. And to then have to face that persona I've created of this isn't a problem anymore and come back and say, oh, it's still a problem.

Yeah.

Actually really worked against them. Whereas had they just say like, hey, I've done some work, I've faced it, but I know this is still an ongoing reality, and invited that in honesty in dating, I think they maybe could have navigated it sooner and better in marriage. And have you seen that too with couples come who the spouse thought, on the women's side, like, I thought he said he was good, he said he dealt with it, and turns out that wasn't the case?

Yeah, and we get a lot of questions in from women that not only say, I thought he was good, but The escalation that has happened in his behavior over the years from the time that it's disclosed again or discovered is also a factor. So maybe they were looking at porn before and masturbating before they got married, but they said they were good, and now they're online chat rooms or had an affair or something because they weren't good. It wasn't taken care of.

Yeah.

What do you believe is the impact on a marriage if someone chooses not to disclose, um, whether past or present, before they get married? So you've talked a little bit about that, but can you expand?

Well, just to say, we're only 40-something days into marriage, uh, so we definitely don't have, you know, all the pros. Yeah, we're not pros. We don't have all the answers. Um, Haley, you want to lean in?

I think even just this last weekend, we got to hear some stories of couples who have been through this journey of crisis, betrayal, working through their addiction, and, and to see the redemption arc is so powerful.

Mm-hmm.

And yet, like, even in the hope that that brings, like, there's still so much pain and shame. And I mean, PD knows all too well that this is detrimental to marriages. And that, um, yeah, I mean, keeping— I mean, even just in our relationship so far, having a foundation of honesty and trust is so crucial. And I can only imagine, um, you know, just if even like little bits and pieces are kind of hidden, like the way that that chips away at a strong foundation of a marriage.

One of the couples that said, John, like, did you prep Haley on what she was about to hear? And I was like, oh no, I don't know, maybe I should have. And yeah, I don't know if I— because we live in this world where marriages often navigate addiction and betrayal and infidelity and all the things. And thankfully, as I get to work with donors— and ironically, Haley also works with donors for another nonprofit here in town— I get to hear redemption stories. And so, you know, we're not sitting in the crisis like a counselor would at the beginning. But yeah, to get to be in the room with Haley and just to get to experience some of these stories together, it's devastating. I feel like that's the only word to use when a wife primarily, right, men can also be betrayed, but for the betrayed spouse to get dump trucked by the addict's addiction. I love that analogy. We use it a lot here at Pure Desire, but just, you know, backing up the truck and unloading the bricks and just them finding themselves below the surface. It's just like you can lay the foundation of those bricks with trust and honesty at the beginning, Or get dump trucked. And my heart just breaks for whether it was the betrayed spouses this weekend that we got to be with, or for those that are listening, because this isn't the sorority that they signed up for, or fraternity of betrayed men or women. And yet they find themselves in this position. Yeah.

Yeah. I think when we don't share in a dating relationship, particularly, you know, as I've said at events, like serious relationships invite serious conversations. So the more serious you're getting in your relationship, the more serious and honest and deep your conversations need to get, because you're looking at like Till death do us part level commitment. Like, that's huge. And so if you're entering into that knowing you're carrying like this part of your life, either one or two things is happening. Either one, you think it's not going to impact us. I'm, you know, it's in the past. I'm going to deal with it. It's going to go away. And that's more where I was at because I had, I had shared to a degree with my wife, but I really think I believed like it was just going to go away and it would be a non-factor. So I didn't probably share as much as I could have. Or someone knows this is a really big deal. And I think if I share it, it's going to ruin the relationship and they won't marry me. Mm-hmm. which means they are going into marriage knowing that maybe that person wouldn't even marry them, which even if it doesn't come out, like, that's not a healthy foundation for a marriage.

No.

If you know I am carrying something, even if it wasn't true, like that fear of rejection, that fear of if I was wholly known they would leave, it is impacting that relationship every single day. And so I think that's where I have just seen in that relationship, and again, it doesn't mean Everyone will do it on date one or week one. But as it's getting more and more serious, I think that place of being of it's all known, it's all out there. And the more I'm able to say, and here's some work I'm doing that gives me confidence I'm headed in the right direction and invites that person to see that, that enables you to start on an entirely different footing than, hey, there's this little piece of my life that if I open that door, it could end the marriage. Whether it's, like I said, whether it's known or not, that is impacting your relationship because you're living to a degree in hiding about a part of your story.

Yeah. It makes me think, just to tag back into like that first date, you know, when do you share? When do you not share? I got a chance to write a blog, and in it I said you should share something, at least maybe begin the conversation from anywhere from date 3 to 5, to your point, before it gets more serious of like, okay, if we're going to take a step towards dating exclusively, One of my friends has this framework of like casual dating, as in like, I'm going on dates and I'm open to like being in a relationship, towards becoming exclusive, like, hey, it's just you and I, to becoming official. I don't know if that's a helpful framework, but I'm like, oh, that's helpful to think through. And if you're becoming exclusive with someone where you're like, hey, like, it's just you and I, I'd love to move towards becoming officially boyfriend-girlfriend, and then, you know, continuing into like conversations on marriage, to your point, serious relationships require serious conversations.

Yeah.

And I think I don't want any boyfriend or girlfriend or fiancé to be dump trucked. And so part of that blog is saying, hey, in date 3 to 5, at least beginning the conversation of when were you exposed to porn? How have you navigated this? How is this, you know, actively showing up in your life? Is there struggle or not? I'm not saying that you have to share everything or tell a cohesive narrative, but to at least begin the conversation because it is so prevalent, right? We would be foolish not to have this conversation early on, but out of fear or complacency or even just the expectation that everybody's struggling. And you can speak to this, like how you, how you had entered some, you know, previous relationships of like the mentality that this is just what it's gonna be.

Totally. Yeah, I was, I mean, in past relationships, I knew that porn was something that like would be a significant impact, would have a significant impact on a relationship. And, you know, I've seen the stats, like a lot of guys are gonna struggle with this. And so I think the question that I kept running into was, well, why would I leave this guy if over porn or masturbation or addiction if the next guy is just gonna struggle with it as well?

Which I remember reading the first Barna report in 2016, and one of the experts they had interviewed had titled what she just said, the pornographic double bind that so many young women in the church are facing. Why would you leave the one guy to simply date another guy where it's the same story? And that breaks my heart. And that is one of the core reasons I continue to lead groups for singles going, what if that wasn't the narrative? Like, what if we could literally shift and shake culture where you have stories like Joel and Brian? where they've done work, they've dug into their story, and they're showing up with a level of honesty that then sets the foundation of those bricks rather than them being dumped 5 or 10 or 20 or 50 years into marriage. Some of the stories that we get to hear here at Pure Desire.

And one of the things you're discovering in bringing that into your dating relationship, not bringing the porn use in, but like bringing that level of honesty, I think you are discovering, is this a safe person for me? And I'm not, again, saying that you should just act like your behaviors aren't gonna change. You're not just trying to put them to the test, like, will you love me no matter what? That's not really a fair question in a dating relationship. But to figure out, like, hey, if you're doing some work, but you have a story and a history, and you share with that person, their response is compassion and curiosity.

Absolutely.

And I think that they request, hey, I want truth in our relationship. I don't want hiding and lies. That's gonna tell you a lot about the kind of person you're with to say, wow, I think this is someone I would like to go Versus if you start to share some of your flaws and they're just like, whoa, not, uh, I can— they don't wanna talk about it and go there. Well, that's gonna be a difficult relationship. I just wanna say that because life and marriage is hard. Right. And we are all flawed.

Yes.

And we're gonna do things that hurt one another. And if, if you start bringing up your story and they can't even create space for that.

Yes.

Like, I'm not sure they're ready to be in a marriage where there's gonna be hard conversations all along the way. And again, I'm not saying that means you should just be dragging bad behavior into the marriage and accept them to be okay, expect them to be okay with it. But that if you're doing some work, you want to be with someone that makes room for that work and that honesty.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think it's kind of a litmus test really in a dating relationship.

One of our friends said, dating a marriage is hard enough as it is, and dragging an active addiction into that is only going to make it worse.

Amen to that.

And he said something so profound. He said, you sharing to some degree that this is here, right, breaking secrecy, actually puts the weight of discernment appropriately into, like, into their lap of like, hey, you have agency here to choose to continue dating me or not, rather than taking that away from them because you're holding it in secrecy. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like, please give them the gift of choice that we should all have in any relationship, because so many men or women who are struggling with this out of fear hold it, right? Of like, to your point, like This person might not even continue dating me or might not want to be married to me if I'm holding this, but they don't tell them. And then it just, yeah, it just feels like that catch-22 of like, surprise, now we're covenanted together. And now I'm like, ah.

There's things you didn't know. Yeah.

So what are some of the mistakes you would encourage couples to avoid in this area? For example, are there ways a couple might be oversharing or overburdening their partner in an effort to be completely honest?

So as we were kind of just alluding to, my story isn't one of sexual addiction, and yet there's some significant pain from past dating relationships. And early on in our relationship, John was the first person that I ever told some of this to, and I did not have a cohesive narrative, and I just trauma dumped all of these details. onto him, and that was, yeah, oversharing. I didn't have other people who were helping give language to what was reality, and so I was just showing up in a lot of confusion, which only created more confusion and pain then for Jon to have to carry.

And from a place of insecurity or being an armchair counselor, I leaned in with what I thought was curiosity But in reflection, it was pain shopping.

Hmm.

And began to almost victimize myself in the process of entering so deeply in that I lost sight of what's Haley's to carry and what's mine to carry. Of like, oh, I need to be this boyfriend who works for pure desire and has all this stuff figured out, and I need to bring solve and rescue and protection. And, uh, I'm not trying to shame. Those are really beautiful things to desire for somebody. But the way I leaned in that night took a conversation that should have been maybe more like 15 or 30 minutes into an hour or 2 hours, and the night just kept going. And not because of Haley's badness, but just simply— I love that title. There's that concept of pain shopping that Dr. Ted talks about in Pillar 7.

Yeah.

And I found myself squarely in that category, a bit blindsided by like, I wasn't necessarily prepared, or, you know, I didn't come into that night going, now don't pain shop, don't pain shop. It just Yeah. What I thought was curiosity wasn't.

I think a lot of us have known that experience. And it's a little bit like, you know, when someone's picking at a scab and you're like, I know I shouldn't be doing this, it's gonna make it worse.

Yes.

But in a weird way, it kind of feels good.

Yeah.

And you go deeper. And we had some of that in our relationship, my wife and I, of sharing our past, you know, struggles of whether in dating or addictive behaviors, that the level of detail felt like in the moment, like, oh man, I really know you. But then it stuck with us. It's like, oh, I kind of wish I didn't know that detail about your past relationship.

Yes.

Like, it was fine to know that you'd crossed some physical lines, but the level of detail we went to was like, huh. And I don't think we were wise enough at the time to know that maybe wasn't gonna help us. And so back to one of the things you said, John, I appreciate. I think if you are telling your dating partner and that's the first time you've told anyone, just to be aware, you're maybe on some thin ice in terms of let's be careful with our detail because I think we've, We probably have all done that. If we meet someone we want to spend our life with, we are ready to open up like, I want you to know me.

Yes.

But if I realize I am going into something like, I have never told anyone, like maybe I should process with a counselor a little bit.

Yeah.

Or I should talk to a trusted friend, just say, hey, what level of this would be helpful for me to share with my boyfriend, girlfriend, fiancé? And the one other thing I would see is in terms of a mistake I think couples make is if that person becomes our soul, source of comfort, support, counsel, whatever it is. Because I don't want people to feel like, well, I shouldn't rely on them at all. I mean, this is your— if you think this is your future spouse, for sure, they're going to be part of your support network. They should be part of encouraging you, loving you, like, you know, accepting you the way you are. And that, that is a support. But if they're the only person that's carrying that weight, that can become in a way like a codependent relationship of I can't be good unless you're good. And I'm not going to function well if you don't help me. And I think that's where sometimes couples, in their desire to love and support one another, don't realize that they've kind of become an enclave unto themselves and not having a community of people that are part of their life.

2 things just to name really clearly. Like, one, in honor, I was so grateful for Haley's honesty. Like, though that moment became painful, I was also so aware of her character. That said, I'm so into this relationship, I'm so committed to not hiding, I'm so committed to these core principles that we were holding, that like there was this beautiful level of sharing. And like just to name, like I truly think I didn't aid that moment. Like I didn't show up well and it just made it worse. And then the second thing is I just think, you know, for our audience, I think historically from just the statistics, The— there are probably more women in our audience who have experienced that, like, this guy shares this deep, heavy story. Oh no, what do I do with it? And just to say, like, you deserve support, whether that's a man or a woman being, you know, hit with this deep level of sharing, like, uh, to please talk. And I think that's sometimes the tension, right, of like, uh, let's just say I had shared something with Haley that she was uncomfortable with. Does she honor me by not telling somebody? Or can she be honest by processing this with a mentor? I think we began to like really unpack that of like I was grateful to have a group and have people where I felt like I could say, "Hey, like here's what Haley and I are processing." You know regarding where she's been and where we're coming like how we're coming into this relationship, and I was so grateful for that. And I remember even telling Haley at times of like, "Hey, like you have the freedom to tell a friend. You have the freedom to tell a mentor. Like please process this with somebody." Like You don't have to protect me. Like, you can be honest, and I don't want you to feel trapped or isolated or alone. And I think a lot of couples, again, whether it's the male or the female in the relationship, can feel really trapped and isolated when you get this overwhelming information of pain or brokenness. And what do you do? And that level of honor and respect and honesty, that's a really tricky place to navigate.

That's a really good point to bring up, that, that as you go to these honest places in your relationship, And you feel the need to share with someone else, making sure you have that freedom and permission, like, hey, would it be okay if I shared this with my brother or my mentor or, you know, whoever else you kind of go to for that support? Because I do think the other person should know, hey, parts of my story might get shared.

Absolutely.

And to have it happen, like, you know, let's say in your friend circle, someone makes a comment about a part of your story, like, oh, I didn't know they knew that. Did you tell them? And like, those can be really hard conversations that might feel like, Our confidentiality was broken by you to get support. So just, just be aware of that. Like, yeah, you might want to process, but do it in a way that the other person feels, hey, they're, they're treating my information safely too. Well, you guys talked about this a little bit before of like the double bind of if I leave this guy over porn use, the next guy I date is probably doing the exact same thing. And it's so common in culture that I think for some, you know, teens and young adults as they're looking forward at dating and marriage, they may just feel like, well, everybody struggles with it. You can't really do much about it. And maybe because of that, they're like, why really bother to do anything about it? It's just kind of everybody struggles. So what would you say to that person to encourage them to take this issue seriously before bringing it into marriage and dating?

I think for so many, they're like, porn's not a big deal. Everybody's struggling. It doesn't really matter. Like, it's this side one-off thing. It's secret. Nobody knows about it. And of course, on our team, you get to serve as like the brain expert. And I'm like, We can have a moral conversation here, but I'm also like, we can have a physical conversation. And so, like, I love— like, if there's someone listening and they're like, yeah, I don't care. I don't— like, Nick, that's great, but I don't need a group. And I'm like, no, that's not true. Like, how would you lean in with— like, can, can you, like, speak to, like, how is this impacting our brain and our body?

I could. It would take a long, long time, but—

Put a few other podcasts in the footnotes.

Yeah, exactly.

Maybe the overview.

Yeah. Well, I think that the connection that I would want to make right away is to say that, you know, because it's even in the news that young men are struggling with erectile dysfunction, and that right there is only a conditioned brain response to pornography. That's all that is. It's not because they actually have erectile dysfunction. It's that they've trained their brain to only respond sexually to a certain stimuli, and they have to, like, untrain their brain and train it to do something different. But yet that, I think, is really impactful, especially for young men, to tell them that and for them to probably want to pay attention to that a little bit.

Yeah.

And this isn't just news. This is— these are men, you know, that I've walked with in group in their 20s.

Right.

Yeah. To use the language of Pure Desire, pornography is shaping your arousal template. Like what you define as attractive and appealing is actively being shaped by pornography.

Yeah.

And we're seeing not only what you said, erectile dysfunction, violence in dating relationships is skyrocketing, the need for novelty and requests of partners that make them feel uncomfortable. And maybe you're in a dating relationship where you're, you're planning to save sex for marriage. And so you're not even going to be fully aware of the degree to which pornography use has impacted their view of sexuality. Until you begin having that physical relationship. But I think some spouses end up really surprised, like, wait a minute, what's going on here? Well, that's their arousal template. That's, that's your body and brain being conditioned to say, this is what to me is arousing. And if your primary context is pornography, that's frightening for a future relationship. So yeah, we could talk morally, brain-wise, health of relationships, like— And we could speak experientially from every single person I've ever done group with that would say, I wish I could have dealt with this before I got married. I've heard that 100% of the time.

I would just say again, to speak to it experientially, like, Haley could give you story after story of the young adult women in our community who have stories of physical aggression and violence in a dating context because of the pornography addiction that these men are carrying, which is why I'm like, I'm like, how many single men can I sign up for group because of this podcast? Because I'm just like, you've been lied to. whether it's strangulation or slapping or choking or biting or whatever these things— like, the porn industry is lying to you.

Yeah.

Please do not hurt your sister in Christ. This is not what they desire. And again, there's room in a marriage context with tender loving care. I'm not saying that we should have like crazy boring sex. Like, please, like, there's, there's room. But also like aggression, violence, like pain— like, those are paid actors who are being paid to respond a certain way, and you're being lied to. Like, healthy sexual education is so needed for the 16-year-old, the 18-year-old, the 25-year-old, or the 35-year-old single. It's like, please, please, please, you have been lied to.

Yeah, I think we all should ask the question, what has been the primary shaper of my expectations around sexuality? And if we're a teen or young adult watching porn, we have to admit, That's been a big part of shaping me. And so if that doesn't make you think, okay, this is important, I'm not sure what will. But you're also listening to the Pure Desire podcast, which probably means to some degree you're already recognizing, hey, this matters. Or maybe this got shared with you because you have a dating partner or a friend that, that sees you moving towards a serious relationship and they're just trying to say, man, I love you and I care about you enough to say deal with this now. And we're here for you. We're on your side. There's no shame here. We all get That this can be a part of life, but we also know that change is possible. And so, John and Hayley, I am so thankful for you just sharing kind of your journey up to this point. We know you are just starting the marriage journey and you have got tons more to learn, but I also think your story already can uniquely speak to others that are dating and engaged and saying, boy, how do we navigate this? So as we wrap up today, any final advice that you would like to leave our audience with today on just how do we tell our future spouse our story?

Yeah, I would say start by getting into a group. And that feels so funny because it's just like, join a group, start a group, join a group, start a group. Like, we could have our own jingle.

Out of our mind trying.

Yeah, here at Pure Desire. But just to say, there is something profoundly powerful and healing about sharing your story with a group of empathetic witnesses, right? Like, cue Kurt Thompson. Like, please, like, you will find healing in a recovery group.

And I would just say, we've said it before, but be honest. And that might mean that your dating relationship doesn't look like a Nicholas Sparks movie. Like, it's not the, you know, butterflies, and it's not a fairy tale all the time, but it helps build a really strong foundation.

Better to have the real thing than a fairy tale that really is just that, just a fairy tale.

Yep.

Yeah. Well said.

Any advice, Heather, as we wrap up today?

The thing that keeps sticking with me is when you were sharing about Hayley telling you something and you didn't show up well, and that you guys had to process, you know, what was Hayley's to carry? What was yours? You know, that level of health and maturity, people don't get to that, you know, for many, many, many years of marriage. And so I am just so impressed With that level of work that you guys have done and just how you are entering in so aware and not just aware of me, you know, of yourself, but of the other person because I just think that it is a rare gift early on in marriage.

Yeah, I think I would close by saying we will never be tomorrow something we are unwilling to be today. And we can have this mindset like, well, when I am married, then I will be a man of integrity, or when I am married, then I will be an honest woman, or when I am married, then I will be free of those things. But if I'm not willing to do today the actions that would be consistent with a man of integrity or a woman of integrity, we're kind of living in a fairy tale. And so if, if that's what you dream of in your future, then start being that today. And that might mean facing your story or taking some hard steps or, or dealing with your addiction and not dragging it any further in life. And we're here to be a part of that journey with all of you. So sharing your story with a future spouse takes courage, wisdom, and humility. But secrecy only creates deeper wounds later, and freedom from pornography and sexual brokenness is possible, and no one is beyond hope or healing. And we hope in John and Hayley's story you have heard a lot of encouragement about taking your first steps today. John and Hayley, it has been great having you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.

Yeah, thanks, Nick.

Thank you.

And if you are a fan of this content, if it has meant something to you, if you know a couple that is dating or engaged, maybe share it with them, write us a review, give us a like. All of these are ways that more people can find this life-giving content. And if you want information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.