The Great Sex Rescue w/ Sheila Wray Gregoire

Sheila, welcome for the first time to the Pure Desire podcast. Thanks for being with us.

It's great to be here.

We are really excited. And I remember hearing from you, Nick, you were like, okay, I'm reading this book. It's really good. We need to have Sheila on Let's do this thing. And I'm like, okay, cool, what's the book? And you're like, it's the Great Sex Rescue. I'm like, I'm in. It doesn't matter. Like, let's go for it. And so I love the title, obviously. Eye catching, for sure. But just in the realm of what we do, we really think this is going to be a profitable conversation to be able to dive into your expertise, your understanding of this in the book. And so, yeah, Nick, why don't you start off.

Yeah, yeah. Sheila, we are very excited to have you on and to chat about some of these messages, have some of these very, very needed conversation. But since you're new to the podcast, you know, take a minute. I know you're the author of many books, but also the founder of a ministry that the website's called to Love, Honor, and Vacuum. So you have to tell us more about that title and a little bit about yourself.

Well, when I started blogging in 2008, I was a typical mommy blogger. You know, I wrote about housework and parenting and marriage and just that whole scene. And what I found was that the more I talked about sex, the more my traffic grew. Like, who knew people wanted to talk about sex, right? So I talked about sex more and more. My blog kind of morphed more into the sex world. And then in 2012, my first big, big book was published. The Good Girl's Guide to Great sex, followed by 31 days to great Sex. I created an orgasm course, a libido course. Like, it was just all sex all the time. And then two years ago, everything kind of changed. And that's where the Great Sex Rescue got started. Because, I mean, this is gonna sound weird, but even though I was writing books about marriage, I'd never actually read a lot of books about marriage in the Christian world because I was always afraid of plagiarizing. And two years ago, I read Love and Respect, and I just about freaked. It was like a nuclear bomb went off in my living room. And I realized, oh, my gosh, we have a problem. And so my team and I embarked on a huge study. We surveyed 20,000 Christian women to try to find out if there's certain evangelical teachings that are wrecking sex for couples.

Wow. I didn't even know any of that. That's. Yeah. Wow. Because I know in the circles I'm even in now, Love and Respect is a. Like, this is the book. This is one of the books we go to. This is what we talk about. And so, I don't know, things just got really interesting for me.

I mean, I love what you said, Sheila, because I remember reading it too, and a lot of it's very solid and helpful, but there were definitely parts. Particularly when that book would veer into the sexuality side, I'd kind of be like, when my wife and I read it together, we were four years into our recovery journey and just finding a lot about health and sobriety and healthy sexuality. And, like, some of those made me raise my eyebrows, like, yeah, I don't know about this, but I love the way that you connect it to a lot of the literature that's out there. Just what we're teaching people and why, in an effort to help, we may actually be undermining some of people's healthy sexuality in marriages. And that's what we're going to talk about. It's going to be great.

Let me summarize. Can I summarize Love and Respect's next chapter? I'll tell you what it says bit by bit. It's not as now I'm like, in the Myers Briggs world, I'm an ENTJ for anyone who knows what that means. So I'm like a big picture person. I'm not a detail person. So when I opened up Love and Respect, I just went right to the sex chapter, because that's my thing. I didn't even read the rest of it like I have since, but I just aimed right for sex. And what he said was, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don't have, and that a husband needs physical release through sex, just like a wife needs emotional release. I don't even know what emotional release is. Like, that's a weird thing. I'm picturing Sandra Bullock in the forest with Betty White in the Proposal, like, doing some weird dance thing.

But, oh, so good, so good, you know?

So anyway, so the husband needs physical release. So sex is only about a husband's ejaculation. And if he doesn't get the sedation, he's going to come under satanic attack and he's more likely to have an affair. And most affairs are caused by women not having sex. And women, why would you not have sex when it takes so little time? So why don't you Know women, you just need to have more sex. And it's like there was nothing, not a single thing about the fact that sex is for a woman too, that sex can be pleasurable. It was just all duty. And you're not allowed to say no.

Yeah. And that is a damaging message for sure. We know that. So obviously that leads into this book, the Great Sex Rescue. So what is it about sex that needs to be rescued? And what do you mean by the title?

Well, what I found on my blog was I was churning out all what I think is great advice for years, and it seemed like people still had a lot of the same issues. And when I read Love and Respect, our team realized maybe the issue isn't that we're not giving good advice, it's that there's something faulty in the foundation. And until we fix the foundation, we can't actually fix sex. It's like in Ecclesiastes where it says that there's a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them together. There's a time to tear down and a time to build up. And maybe we need to tear down what it is that we've been teaching about sex in the Christian world so that we can build up on what's actually the biblical foundation, what Jesus actually said, and build a sexual life, which is all the things the Bible wants it to be. Intimate, mutual, pleasurable, instead of just this. Sex is about a husband's physical release.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I. One of the things I loved about the book early on. It's like we're going to challenge some of the assumptions that people have maybe had and just help them to see, is this actually biblical? And that's the kind of thing trying to encourage people to think about all the time. Like, is your view of sexuality male, female, whichever direction you're coming from, is it rooted in God's image of sexuality in our marriages and the beauty that he intended? Or have we turned it into something else? So one of the concepts you bring up really early in the book, Sheila, that I just thought is a perfect example of that, you say, maybe we need to redefine what we mean when we say sex. And really, as opposed to the word intercourse. So talk about that. Why do we need to redefine sex?

Okay, so if I were to ask you guys, did you have sex last night?

And don't worry, I'm not going to ask you that.

You do not have to answer.

But if I were to ask you.

If I were to ask you did.

You have sex last night? Chances are. What you think I'm asking is, did you put your penis into your wife's vagina, move around until you climax like that? That is having sex to us, right? And what I'd like us to believe or to think about is what if that isn't the definition of sex? Because that's intercourse, certainly. And I do think that intercourse is an important part of sex, but it isn't the whole thing. Because if that's what we think sex is, she could be lying there making a grocery list in her head, right? She could totally not be there. Her mind could be a thousand miles away. She. She could be in emotional turmoil, feeling used, or she could actually be in physical pain and it would still count as having sex.

And that is not how the Bible describes it.

I mean, if I can just give you three snapshots. In Genesis 4, chapter 1, we read Adam knew his wife Eve. And that sounds like a really funny phrasing, like God's embarrassed of saying what was actually going on. But that's not it at all. The Bible talks about rape, all kinds of stuff. You know, it's not that God's embarrassed. That Hebrew word there for to know is the same word that David uses in the Psalms when he says, search me and know me.

Oh, God.

God is telling us that sex is more than physical. It's this deeply intimate connection. And that means that both people matter. If it's going to be intimate, then you're both coming to the table and you both want to know each other. And it's so interesting. God uses sexual imagery to talk about his relationship with us. Again, it's this deep longing for connection. So we know sex is intimate.

We know from Song of Solomon that's deeply pleasurable for both.

And we know from First Corinthians 7 that it's totally mutual. Everything that he gets, she gets. Everything that he gives, she gives. It's supposed to be this mutual experience. So we have something which is pleasurable, intimate and mutual. That's what sex is. They both matter. They both are supposed to experience something wonderful. One side, intercourse is not sex.

Yeah.

And yet often the way our Christian resources talk about it, they portray it just like love and respect does, as one sided intercourse.

Well, and that can, that can explain a lot of the challenges people have when they feel like, you know, they come to marriage counseling and they might say something like, well, we're having sex a lot. But what they mean is, we've had intercourse. It's not been mutually you know, enjoyable and pleasurable. And on the other side of it, even for, like, the man who's having a lot of intercourse, it may not be creating a sense of connection or closeness or, you know, real bonding with their spouse. And so just because they're having the physical act doesn't mean it's actually creating, I think, the kind of outcome that God is intended for sex to be. And so, yeah, I just. I really like that phrasing of maybe we need to rethink what we mean by our words. And so when we do say we had sex, we mean, like, we engaged together in something that was mutually enjoyable, that we were looking to the needs of the other and serving one another in a way that both of us felt seen, heard, loved, embraced. What a difference that would be versus just. Well, we spent five minutes and he climaxed, and we went on with our night.

And that's something, too. I think the longer I've been in recovery, the more I realize that if I do want to have sex with my wife or have that physical intimacy with my wife, it's not something that I'm just wanting a climax. And it's not that that isn't a part of it. Like, sure, if we get there, fantastic. Like, great. But it's actually something where I'm wanting to connect. I'm wanting to experience something together. And I've just noticed that even in my own thinking and even some of the conversations after we do have sex where it's, you know, did we feel like we were both there? And if we weren't, okay, that's what we want to work toward. That's what we want to make sure that we're experiencing together. And so I think that it's something. Because, again, I don't think anybody just flat out taught me that growing up. And so I think that there's actually. And maybe this is in more support of what you're saying, Sheila, that I think innately, that's really what I'm after. I'm after that connection and that intimacy. That, yes, is in the physical realm. Because we argue that intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is very much outside of sex. But sex can be very intimate and is a part of that. But I think that there's this almost like it's what we strive after. It's really what we're after in that act. At the core, maybe at the most healthy core of us is it's just connection.

It really is. And I honestly think most guys get that. Well, I think we all. Because that's what we all cry out for. And so what happens though, when in our evangelical circles, we haven't talked about it that way, and that's where what we found, all kinds of things start to break apart.

Yes. Well, let's keep going. Diving more into the book. You discussed something, and I love this again, you call it the orgasm gap. So what is the gap that you're talking about? Why does it exist? And then, I mean, it looks like it was based on data and research that you guys did. So, yeah, just talk about that. What is the orgasm gap?

Okay, so studies show that roughly 95% of men almost always or always reach orgasm during a sexual encounter. The equivalent number for women that we found is about 48%. So that means we have a 47 point gap. So in most marriages, in the majority of marriages, he's reaching orgasm and she's not. Now, there's a lot of women who reach orgasm sometimes or even most times, but not always. But. But it's still a big problem. And when we see sex as only intercourse, we're actually not prioritizing her pleasure. And then the measuring stick we're using for sex is intercourse, which almost always feels good for him, but doesn't necessarily feel good for her. Because of the women who do reach orgasm, only 39% can reach it through intercourse alone. So most women need a lot of foreplay or else there's other routes to orgasm that are more reliable. And you know what I find so interesting is that God put the clitoris outside the vagina. He didn't stick it up there, he put it outside the vagina, which means it gets maximum stimulation, not necessarily through intercourse. Now it can get stimulation through intercourse. We have a lot of tips in the Great Sex Rescue on how to maximize that. But the point is, God created women's bodies so that we wouldn't necessarily respond to intercourse, but to other things. And that's the way we're made. But if we only look at intercourse, chances are she's left hanging. And not just that. He wonders if she's broken, you know, because sex is supposed to feel good. She's not feeling that good, so she must be frigid. She starts to wonder if she's broken. And she also feels really selfish if she needs him to do anything else.

Yeah.

And so it just sets up this dynamic where she doesn't know how to ask for what she wants. She doesn't even know what she wants. And he feels like there's something wrong with her.

Yeah, that's so damaging dude, that can be so. That could destroy a marriage. Just that alone.

Yeah. Well, the physical issues quickly becomes emotional and relational and even spiritual of God, why did you make me this way? Or why aren't we connecting? And did you make me wrong?

And it's not like we need excuses to shame ourselves. So when something like that comes up, it just makes it worse.

Yeah. Gosh, that statement you made, Sheila, that in a majority of Christian marriages, he's reaching orgasm and she's not. I mean, that right there. A majority like that should just make a stop and say, we need to address that. Because if we acknowledge that for a majority of marriage, it's not fulfilling for half of the people involved, then something isn't occurring in the right way. Because here's what I would say. I can't think of a single Christian that wouldn't affirm the statement, God created sex to be mutually pleasurable. I think every Christian leader, pastor, person I've talked to say, yes, God made it to be mutually pleasurable. And yet we're living in a day and age where we acknowledge in half of the marriage that's not happening, and yet we don't talk about it. And so that's why I love that you addressed in the book, say that this shouldn't be. And if we see that gap, let's move towards eliminating that huge percentage gap of the pleasure that's happening between a husband and wife.

Yeah. Let me tell you a story. Let's say that you had a couple, and we'll call them Tracy and Dan. All right. And Tracy and Dan are told that what really builds a marriage is if you go out for dinner once a week. And so they go up to a restaurant and they order their appetizers or their main course and their dessert. And Tracy's appetizer arrives, and she eats it, and nothing comes for Dan. And then Tracy's steak arrives, and she eats that, and they have a great conversation about what they're gonna do when they retire and about how things are with his mom. And then her dessert arrives, her molten lava cake. And she's just so excited for this molten lava cake. And she's dipping into it, and she's just loving it. And then she has three bites left. And his chicken wings arrive. His chicken wing appetizer. And he eats one chicken wing, and then he eats a second chicken wing. And then she stands up and says, man, dinner was amazing. I love doing this with you. Let's go home. And they leave. And now imagine that they do this every week. For 10 years. How much is Dan gonna like going to restaurants?

Yeah.

And Dan might be told, but it's okay. You need to take pleasure in what she's feeling, and you need to really enjoy the conversation, because the conversation is the main point. And this is what women have been told for years. Well, it's okay, because the main point is that you're giving a gift and you need to take pleasure in what he's feeling. But if we're wondering why women have no libido, maybe it's because the two chicken wings isn't enough.

Yeah, we don't give them the opportunity.

That's the line.

That's a great illustration.

That's the line from the episode. Now maybe two chicken wings isn't enough. That's gonna be. I'm gonna put that on the description for the podcast when this comes out.

It's gonna be great. That's great. So, Sheila, a lot of people, when they're talking about sex and even a sense of responsibility to our spouse, will quote Corinthians chapter seven, and, you know, the whole do not deprive idea that it's our responsibility to meet one another's needs. So I feel like as I read the book, you have a really powerful and unique perspective on that verse. So could you just share with us a little bit how you see this verse first? How do you see it getting abused? Because I think that's important that we acknowledge it. And how could we more appropriately apply this verse? Because we believe wholeheartedly in the truth that God's trying to convey to us in 1 Corinthians 7. So how could we more appropriately apply that truth, that verse, to marriages?

Yeah.

Okay, so let's take a look at what those verses say. So if we start in verse 3 of 1 Corinthians 7, it says that the husband must fulfill his marital duties to the wife. So the wife's needs are mentioned first, and the wife must take care of the husband's needs. The wife's body does not belong to her alone, but also to the husband. The husband's body does not belong to him alone, but also to the wife. And do not deprive each other except by mutual consent. And for a time that you can devote yourselves to prayer and fasting, but then come together again so that you won't be tempted by your lack of self control. So those are what those verses say. Those are probably the second most weaponized verses against women in the whole Bible. The first would be the submit to your husbands, but that's probably the most weaponized. In Every Heart Restored, which is a book in the Every Man's Battle series, they quoted those verses and then they said, so a husband is promised sexual release from these verses and then a wife is promised. And they pointed to First Peter 3, that the husband will honor her. Like it's like, well, hold on A second in First Corinthians 7, she's promised sexual fulfillment as well. Like those verses are for both. They're not just for the husband. What's interesting is that when Paul wrote them, he was writing into Roman culture. And in those days husbands had complete authority over their wives bodies to the point that they could murder their wives and not be prosecuted for it. Like they owned their wives. And so in the middle of all that, Paul says the husband has authority over the wife's body. And everyone's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Just as the wife has authority over the husband's body. That's revolutionary. That's revolutionary. So it's totally mutual. And then he says, do not deprive each other. So what is it that we're not supposed to deprive each other of? The way these verses are often weaponized, again they talk about one sided intercourse, right? Like if he wants something, you need to give it to him. But biblically, what Paul would have been thinking is this biblical idea of sex. Mutual, intimate, pleasurable. So we're supposed to not deprive each other of this beautiful sexual relationship in marriage. Like if your son comes to you at a 11 in the morning and says can I have some Cheetos? And you say no, because lunch is coming. You're not depriving him of food because his need is not for Cheetos. His need is for a well balanced diet that's going to nourish his body. And in the same way our need is for mutual, pleasurable, intimate sex. It isn't just for husband's ejaculation. Not there's anything wrong with the husband's ejaculation, but it needs to be in the right context. And making it only about that actually destroys what sex is supposed to be. And it makes it the ultimate unknowing of your wife.

Yeah. Amen. And this is so where your book interacts with pure desire, that what we see all the time is the husband's or the male need is kind of assumed like, well, he just has these needs and they need to be met. And what we see is that need is not just like this natural biological function that that need has been deeply Shaped and, you know, quote unquote, need. Because first, let's be honest. Sex is not a need. Like, it's not necessary for survival. You won't die without sex. So even using the word need is interesting, but what we see all the time is how that, that sense of need for a husband has been shaped by their patterns of acting out. And often, quite frankly, by acting out through masturbation and pornography. And then they get into a marriage. It's like, well, hey, I have these needs and they're unquestioned. Like, well, maybe we could pause first and say, where do the needs actually come from? And should it ever be a spouse's responsibility to fulfill your unhealthy needs that have been cultivated by a sex saturated culture and perhaps poor choices, poor, sinful choices that you made along the way? And so that's just, man. As I would read those parts in the book, Sheila, I just kept saying, yes, yes, like, we need to get off of this whole husband's need idea and really look at. Is that our need? Because it's not our need, as you say. And I love those three words that I'd encourage for couples to ask about their sexuality. Like, is it mutual? Is it intimate? Is it pleasurable?

Yeah.

And quit the conversation of, well, what do I need? And what do you need? Yeah, because that's not always taking us in a good direction.

Yeah. And that's again, like, I. It's something that I continue to sense as I'm in recovery, as I'm seeing people around me in recovery, that it's not. It is not a need conversation. It's an experience together conversation. Like, gosh, I just, I love your visual of the dinner. And I'm thinking about, like, it. How often is sex, me riding a roller coaster. And then I'm getting off the roller coaster and telling my wife how awesome it was, like, hey, you should do that sometime. It's like, well, why don't you just take me with you? Like, would be great. But I. So I can just see how this is going to be a really, really helpful conversation in this book. I mean, if you can't tell we support this book, please buy this book, get this book wherever you can. Because this is something that we need to keep pushing. Because. And here's just a thought. I think these types of conversations, these types of perspectives that you offer in this book, often, especially people like me who grew up in the church will hear it and be like, yeah, that's like, I'm on board with that. Yes, cool. And Then I move on and I fall right back into the old patterns of thinking and I fall right back into those old camps that talk about love and respect and talk about every man's battle and the need based stuff. And so I think this is something we need to continue circle back to. And so I just tell our listeners this is something, maybe an episode you should listen to a few times. Okay, Sheila, one of your chapters in the book is titled Duty Sex Isn't Sexy.

Love that title.

Yeah, such a great title. I mean everything, every chapter. I look through them today. It's just so good. So let's talk about that. What do you mean? And what would you say to couples, and women in particular, who are accustomed to thinking about, like, duty sex as what they should be doing in that way?

One of the big things that we're taught, like we talked about in the First Corinthians 7 discussion, is that women must give their husband sex whenever their husbands want it. When in our big survey, what we did was we asked women about their marital satisfaction and their sexual satisfaction, we got like really intrusive. It was like a 130 question minimum survey. Okay. So we asked everything. And then after they answered those questions, we gave them a whole bunch of different common evangelical beliefs and asked, have you ever been taught this and have you ever believed it? And then we were able to measure, okay, if you believe this, what does it do to your marital and sexual satisfaction? And we identified lots of beliefs that hurt, but four key ones that we talk about in the book. The one that is the most toxic is this idea that a wife is obligated to give her husband sex when he wants it. When she believes that her orgasm rates plummet, her libido plummets, her marital satisfaction plummets. But I want to give you one particular picture which I think speaks to how toxic this really is. Her chance of experiencing sexual pain, or vaginismus, which is a sexual dysfunction disorder. When the muscles of the vaginal wall contract to the point, penetration is really painful, if not impossible, goes up by virtually the same amount as if she had been abused.

Wow.

So you can imagine, like if someone's the victim of abuse, it makes sense that they would suffer, you know, from sexual pain. Well, women's bodies interpret the obligation sex message as trauma.

Wow.

And our bodies react that way.

Wow.

Because the obligation sex says you don't matter. Only his needs matter and he has the right to use you. And this is the message that is preached in the majority of our books. Love and Respect said it. You don't have a right to say no except for prayer and fasting. Power of a praying wife said it. Every man's battle said it. Sheet music said it. Sheet music said even there are times when it's going to feel forced. Like you're going to feel like you have to push him off of you, but it's your obligation do it anyway. You know, these sorts of messages are what women are hearing all the time. And a lot of guys don't even realize women are told this stuff because women tend to hear it from books. And who reads the books? It's not guys, it's women. So people will get married and the husbands have no idea. This is how she sees it. Like, we are taught that men need sex every 72 hours. And you must have give it to him every 72 hours or else he will lust, or he'll have an affair, or he'll watch porn, puts it all on her or God will be mad at you.

Yep.

And so women, a lot of women have sex under threat of all of these bad things happening and it really messes sex up.

Yeah.

And I love in the book you bring up like you tried to figure out where does that three day idea come from. And you know, it wasn't medical journals, it wasn't scientific research. It was like a kind of a mention in a James Dobson book from the 70s that he just kind of anecdotally mentioned something. And I could see that, like we've just built. And I think in the male experience, they do feel after three days, like I feel more desired. But again, have we just trained ourselves that that's what we quote, unquote, need and then expect someone else to meet that need? And what occurs to me, Sheila, is you share that answer. Like the things you're saying about how the woman experiences it. A feeling used, a feeling they don't matter. Like, we would all listen to that and say, well, that's not a biblical value. Like, that's not something a person walking in a relationship with Christ would ever say. They feel. I feel used. I feel unnoticed, unheard. And yet if that's the outcome of us expressing, quote, unquote, Christian sexuality in our marriages, we're doing something wrong. Like the outcome should leave both people feeling, if it's truly biblical in its nature, should leave both people feeling more connected to one another, valued, heard, appreciated, you know, a sense of connection even with their creator for making them that way. Like, and if that's not, not the outcome, we need to have Enough humility to just say, okay, what. What are we missing? What. What have we misapplied? That's not creating that feeling for us. Because if. If one of us is left with all of these that we would say are very unbiblical feelings, right.

Or.

Or not holy, not of God, then we would want to address that in any situation. And so if it happens to be about our sexuality, then let's lean into it.

Totally. Totally.

Can I tell you the story of Kay? I think her story illustrates this really well. So when Kay and her husband got married, sex was actually really good. She reached orgasm quite easily. They were having a great time. This kept up through their first two babies. Everything was a.

Okay.

And then after her third child, she had postpartum depression. She tore things took a while to recover. And when she did recover, it was like she had lost all feeling. Sex just did not feel good anymore for a long time. But she kept initiating every 72 hours because that's what you're supposed to do as a good Christian wife. And she found herself getting more and more resentful and feeling more and more used. And then about two years in, she said to her husband, I just. I just hate sex. Now. I'm at the point where I hate sex, and I don't want to hate sex, but I hate sex. I dread it. And they started talking, and he had no idea that she felt obligated to do something. And he said, I don't ever want you to do something that you don't want to do. Like, if we are in the middle of intercourse and you're like, nah, I'm not into it anymore. I want to stop. Like, I don't want you to do something just for me. And over the next little while, he proved that to her through his actions. And it was. She said, it was like everything changed. Because as soon as I knew that I had permission to say no, it was like my body suddenly wanted to say yes again. And so they got into this new rhythm. She got, you know, she finally found her libido again. And now they have sex every 72 hours. But it's because this time not. Because it's not out of obligation. Yeah, right. It's. It's like it's out of passion. And that's what I want couples to get. It's like, if we get rid of these negative messages, it's not that sex disappears. Like, we don't need these negative messages to make women have. What we need to do instead is show couples what sex is Supposed to be. And then libido and pleasure and everything will blossom.

Yes, totally.

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that about your book. The goal is not just to shame men for doing it the wrong way and make women empowered to speak their mind, that the goal is healthy marriages. The goal is healthy, mutually intimate, pleasurable marriages. And it's more possible if we'll lean into some of these things. So, you know, Sheila, you've mentioned several books here, and there may be some listening who, you know, they've. They're reading your book and they'll feel like you're kind of tearing apart some of their favorites. You know, love and Respect. Like, man, that touched my life. So. And I know that's not your heart, but I just want you to speak to, like, how do you respond to that person? What, what is your intent or purpose in reviewing these books? As part of the research and part of your.

What we did first, like I told you, was we did this huge survey and we identified which teachings harm.

And then we also looked at a.

Whole bunch of other peer reviewed journals.

To find out, okay, what really hurts.

Sex and what really helps sex. And from that, we created this rubric, this 12 markers of healthy Sexuality rubric. And we took it and we applied it to our top evangelical sex and marriage books to see how they would score.

And some scored really well, like the Penners.

The Gift of Sex was amazing. It scored 47 out of 48.

Great book.

Thoroughly recommend it. Boundaries in marriage scored like 42 out of 48. There were some really good books there. Unfortunately, the majority of our books fell.

Into the harmful category, and Love and.

Respect would be one of them. It scored the worst. It was actually a zero. It was zero out of 48. It was that bad. There was really nothing redeeming about sex in it. Every Man's Battle scored very poorly as well. 9 out of 48. It handled the lust message in some ways better and in some ways worse. Like, it at least did have men take responsibility for it, whereas love and respect did not. So, you know, these kinds of things. So a lot of the books just didn't score well. Some did, but a lot didn't.

And that doesn't mean that everybody who.

Read those books was harmed by them.

But it does mean that many were. And we can do better. When we know better, we do better. And so if we know what messages help and what messages harm, then we should be promoting the resources like the Gift of Sex and like the Great Sex Rescue that talk about what's helpful as opposed to books which can point people in the wrong direction. Because we now know that when you teach certain messages, they hurt women. And this is, this is another thing I really want people to understand too. Our book is not saying that husbands are doing a bad job. What our books are like, a lot of husbands, like I said, don't even have any clue that their wives believed this stuff. And what we found was that in a lot of cases, a wife believing it hurts their marriage. Even if the husband doesn't believe it, like even if the husband doesn't do anything about it, it's not that he is the problem, it's that what she's been taught is the problem. One of the biggest examples is the belief all men struggle with lust. It's every man's battle. That's the one belief we studied that hurts her, even if she never believed it but was merely taught it. Like if she is taught that in high school that all men struggle with lust, it's every man's battle. She will have a lower libido and lower orgasm rate when she marries.

Wow.

You know, as you're saying that about the other resources too, and this is something I think personally I've had to wrestle with that. I don't think what I hear you saying is that those books have no value and there isn't anything beneficial in them. Like these resources or books can have pieces that are beneficial, but when it comes to this specific area, the information is wrong. Obviously it's harmful and it's okay. I think this is just a good principle. And I know we get this a lot in pushback, you know, for us in our approach here at Pure Desire, that like, you need to just read your Bible more, pray more, love Jesus more, just try harder. And I think it's okay to take in new information. You don't have to agree with everything every book. You know, some people may read this book, the great sex Rescue, be like, I don't feel like that fits. Right? That doesn't mean the whole book is garbage like that. There could be 98% incredible, just life changing stuff in that 2%. But I think that we often throw out stuff if there's just a little bit of stuff we don't disagree with. So I don't hear you saying that, but I do hear you saying that these things are still very harmful when misapplied to the relationship between a husband and a wife.

And I really appreciate you make that disclaimer early in the book. You're like, hey, some of these books may have touched you or helped your journey. We're grateful for that. We're just trying to point out some harmful messages. And I like that you went into that study, like, with this list of rubric in mind, like, here's the criteria we're looking for. And it wasn't just an arbitrary, oh, we don't like that. We do like this. It's like we're really looking for these messages. And so I think that's important for people to hear. It's not just your opinions of the books, but it's. Did they align with those messages? And I know that's in the Great Sex Rescue, like in your appendix, what were the core messages you were looking for? And. And did. Did they show up in the book or not? So I think for people listening that loved Love and Respect.

Yeah.

I would encourage you still to go look at those questions that Sheila lists in the appendix in the Great Sex Rescue of what were they looking for? And maybe to realize, oh, even if there were some things in Love and Respect that were helpful to me, these messages were in there too. And I need to. I need to face those things.

Totally. So, Sheila, let's keep going. One dynamic that you talk about is the stereotype, and we hear this all the time, that men are sexual and women are emotional. You talked a little bit about this earlier. So that men need sex and women need connection. Just kind of dive into that more. Why is that often so unhelpful and also untrue?

Okay, can I tell you? My great grandmother and great grandfather, My great grandfather was five foot six and my great grandmother was five foot eleven and a half.

Wow.

They did not have scientists knocking on their door saying, how is that possible? Because we know that men are tall and women are short. And the reason they did not have scientists knocking on the door is that we all understand that even though most men are taller than most women, it does not mean that all men are taller than all women, because there is such a thing as overlapping bell curves. And what I mean by that is that when there is a trait that exists on a spectrum in the population, that trait tends to exist on a bell curve. So there's more people in the middle, and you get fewer and fewer as you go. And libido exists on a bell curve, and the libido bell curves for men and women are different. Okay. Men's tends to be. Tend to have a higher libido, but they overlap incredibly. And so when we say that men need sex and women don't, that men want sex, and women don't. We are missing a huge part of the picture. Now what we found is that 58 and 58% of marriages the man has the higher sex drive, but in 23% it's shared. And in 19% she has the higher sex drive. So when we talk about men need sex and women don't, that's simply not true in a lot of marriages. The scientists describe it, this is the phrase they use, is that the difference within the groups is greater than the difference between the groups. So if you look at the two standard deviations, the shortest men and the tallest men, there's more difference between them than the average man and the average woman. So there's more difference within men than there is between the average man and the average woman.

Yeah.

Wow, that's great.

I think it's so important to think about that even from the male side of we're told you're not emotional, you don't need emotion, you don't need connection. And I very much grew up with a stereotype of emotion was a non manly trait. And so if I showed strong emotion, feeling even guilt and shame about, well, why am I so emotional? Be a man. And so we need to realize there's some negativity that can be taken out of that message on both sides. That I realize I need connection and I'm emotional and I need to find that emotional place with my wife just as much as I need to remember that she's also sexual. And so if we both keep that in mind, it's going to lead to better conversations and better connection.

And here's. And I think it's. I mean, you mentioned it earlier and then our friend Jay Stringer has also talked about it between the two, which one of man or woman has a sexual part of their body that's on the out. You talked about it. The clitoris is on the outside. Like that's all it's for is pleasure. That's it. You know what I mean? So it's almost like just even looking at the female biology, sex is built in as well there. It's not just something. So I just. It's simple things like that that I feel like tend to be so profound for some reason. But.

But what happens if she grows up being told you don't need sex? Yeah, he needs sex. He's very visual. He's going to lust. You need to be the gatekeeper. If you're making out, you need to make sure it doesn't go too far because he can't help it. You know, you don't really want sex the way he does. He wants sex in a way you'll never understand. And then she gets married and it's like we seem to forget self fulfilling prophecies are a thing. Like if you tell women their whole lives you don't want sex, should we be surprised if they get married and then don't want sex?

Yeah, yeah. So true. I mean, that leads right into the quote in your book that I wanted to hear you talk about. You said it this way and I thought this was powerful. Evangelical culture primes women to repress their sexuality, but then turns around and chastises them when they're married for doing that very thing. So talk about that if you would, and then share how we could change to help both men and women think about their sexuality in a healthier way before and after marriage.

It's so important, especially with our teens, that we talk about how sexual feelings are normal and natural. There's nothing wrong with them. But what we do need to understand, of course, is that it's important to have boundaries. But instead what we tend to tell our daughters is boys will push your sexual boundaries. This was one of the negative beliefs that we studied as well. In Shanti Feldon's book For Young Women Only, she quotes a stat which I do believe this survey question was invalid. And I also believe her interpretation of it was invalid. So I'm going to tell you this stat, but I don't think it's accurate. But she said 82% of boys feel little ability and little responsibility to stop in a make out situation. So if you want to stop girls, it's better to not even start. So she's saying guys feel little guys have little ability to stop, which basically is legitimizing date rape. That's why this is. I mean, you can always stop, okay? But by saying that guys can't stop, then it's telling girls boys are going to push your sexual boundaries. And so you need to be the brakes. He's the accelerator, you're the brakes. So you're making out as a teenager. Maybe you're engaged young adult. And he is enjoying himself. He's thinking, this is great. He's having fun. What's going through her head, on the other hand, is, is he getting too excited? Is he breathing too fast? Where are his hands? Should I stop yet? Should I stop yet? Should I stop yet? And it's a very different experience. And we talked to so many women who said that it was like they were spectatoring one woman called it spectatoring. Another woman called it judging. But it was like you were outside of your body watching what was going on. You weren't allowing yourself to inhabit your body. And so then when they got married, they had no idea how to experience sex because they were so used to thinking about what he was thinking and almost leaving their own bodies. And so learning how to integrate back with your body was actually quite difficult for a lot of women. And so what we encourage people to do is to reframe that message. Instead of saying boys will push your sexual boundaries, let's tell teenagers having sexual feelings is natural, but you need to figure out what your own boundaries are and you need to have a plan to keep those. But even more importantly, you need to know the boundaries of the person you're with and you need to honor them. And if you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't honor your boundaries, that's a red flag that that relationship isn't safe. But what we've taught girls is all boys push your boundaries. So girls don't even know how to be discerning that. That's actually a scary thing. If someone doesn't honor your boundaries.

Yeah, well, and I wonder if that's another area where we create a self fulfilling prophecy of having young men here where you really can't control your desires and you know, you cross certain lines and you'll go too far. And there is some truth to, you know, our prefrontal cortex being shut down by a sexual high. And so we want to be aware of that. But rather than having that kind of an educated conversation of like helping a young man understand what's happening in his brain and with his hormones, we can just communicate to them, well, you really can't control these things, so good luck. And so then a young man who's in that dating relationship is bringing that same like, well, I really can't control. And so they're abdication of responsibility. Like, well, I've been told I can't control it. So you know, what am I to do versus what if we trained young men to say, no, you are responsible and you can take responsibility for your body. And yes, there are brain chemicals and hormones that will take off and will start to be like a runaway freight train. And that's why you need to take responsibility. You need to understand your body. And if young men had that message, then I think they could enter into those dating relationships, not putting the pressure on the young lady, but having it in their own heart and mind too. And I just wonder how many of us in youth group ever heard a talk like that? On the healthy side? Because I know I didn't.

It's a round number. I would sure have liked that.

I like to tell boys the raccoon test. Okay, this is simple test. If a raccoon were to jump on the bed, could you stop what you're doing? If you could stop, if there was a raccoon on your bed, then yes, you have the ability to stop.

There you go. That's good. That's good. Well, let's keep going. You talk about again, more. In the book, you talk about the sexless marriage. How common is a sexless marriage? And what do we need to do to address that? And I mean, even as I asked that question, it could seem like, how do we make sexless marriages have a lot of sex? And I don't even think I'm asking that. Sexless is something that we are identifying as unhealthy. So how do we get from that unhealth in the area of no sex to then starting to have health in our sexuality, marriage?

You know, this is interesting because this is the one finding in our survey that totally changed how I teach this stuff. Like, I used to teach stuff very differently than I do now that I've done the survey. And so. And that's just what I want all of the authors to do is, like, when we realize that we were wrong, we need to switch how we teach things. So what I used to teach was sex is a vital part of marriage. And you can't just cut someone off like you need to. You need to prioritize sex. What we found in our survey is that. And I'm not the numbers person, three people wrote our book. One of them was Joanna Sawatzki, who is our epidemiologist and statistician. So I'm going to try to do this off the top of my head, but I'm not. I don't have all the numbers exactly right. But I think it's in roughly 6% of marriages that are virtually sexless. And then maybe there's like another 8% who have sex really rarely. But in those marriages, like of the sexless ones, 78% have at least two of these problems. The following problems. Either she never reaches orgasm, she has sexual pain, he has sexual dysfunction, he's watching porn, or they have no emotional connection during sex. So 78% have at least two of those issues of couples have frequent sex and who, you know, very. It's very rare they even have one. Okay. And a Lot of them have more than that. And so what we've realized is that sexlessness is a sign of something else. So when there's a sexless marriage, it's important to ask why? And then deal with the why. Because, you know, sex is great. Like, sex is awesome. If people aren't having sex, why would you not have something which is awesome? So if you're not doing it, chances are it's not awesome, and chances are there's a reason. And let's figure out what the reason is. The other thing that we found is that if our definition of sex is something which is mutual, intimate, and pleasurable, there are a lot of women, I think it's as many as. It's the same percentage, virtually as sexless marriages, of women who are having sex but who never orgasm and who feel emotionally distant from their husbands. So they are basically in a sexless marriage. But it would never count as that because they are having sex like they are having intercourse.

Right.

As you said, they have no pleasure and no intimacy. And so we never talk about those marriages.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so we just need to see the whole thing differently.

Yeah, yeah. It goes back to that early question of we need to redefine sex. Because if couples, you know, actually started to think about that way, like, in the last month, we had intercourse five times. We had sex once. So we're having sex once a month. That's very different than saying, oh, we had six times last month. We're doing pretty good. Well, let's be honest about the experience for both. And I think what you brought up, Sheila, is so important that when we hear about a sexless marriage, I think the tendency for pastors, leaders, teachers, needs to be man, God gave you the gift of sex. You need to go have more of it. And so we almost shame this couple. Rather than addressing the underlying issues, we perpetuate the pain by saying, well, you need to go do more of the thing that is either painful, where you don't feel safe, or you feel you're being objectified, or you've got a medical issue that no one is actually helping. You see, that's an okay, normal part of our human experience that we may have medical issues that we need to have addressed. And that doesn't mean there's something wrong with us as people. But we don't hear those messages. We just hear, well, God gave you sex. You need to go have it. And. And we may be perpetuating people's frustrations and pain.

Totally.

And I know I did that. And so I've changed the way I speak. And that's the great thing about research, you know, is that we can learn how to do this better. And I just hope the evangelical community embraces that.

Yeah, well, Sheila, these are some big themes. Like, these are really. I mean, if people would shift some paradigms here. I get so excited about what could happen in the Christian community within marriages. And so I feel like in some ways, we've just scratched the surface of what we could talk about. I mean, we could go on for hours. But give our listeners some parting words, like, as you share about the Great Sex Rescue, what can we all do to create a new, beautiful picture of godly sexuality in our marriages? What would you kind of leave people with? Work towards this.

There's a line in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where they're talking about Aslan, who's the Christ figure, and they say he's not a tame lion, you know, but he is very good. And sex is like that. It's supposed to be like that. It's not something you can pin down. It is passionate. It's crazy. It's out of control. It's amazing. And it's also very good. And that was God's design. And I do believe that that is in reach of all of us if we decide to truly love each other and truly seek after each other's best. And I think what I just want from the Great Sex Rescue is for people to understand that if that's not real in your marriage, you can get there. This can be the most fun research project you'll ever do as a couple, and it might be painful at times. It means you're going to look into yourself and you're going to say, oh, wow, I've been hurting her. I've been hurting me. I've been believing some things that are wrong. But there's passion on the other side, and don't accept a cheap substitute. Don't settle for Cheetos. You know, there's passion on the other side. And if God made something that's great, you don't want to miss out on it.

Yeah, yeah.

So good.

So good. So, Sheila, how can people connect with you? Where can they get the book?

So the Great Sex Rescue is everywhere. Books are sold. My blog is to love honorandvacuum.com and if you go there and click on the menu for books, you'll see the Great Sex Rescue and all kinds of other things. We've created our orgasm course. Is there everything? And then we also have our Bare Marriage podcast on Thursdays. That's on the menu as well for podcasts. If you go to to love honored vacuum.com you will find everything.

So you can catch the Pure Desire podcast on Tuesdays. Yeah. And then go over and catch Bare Marriage on Thursday. Just make it your weekly, weekly routine.

Yes, absolutely, Sheila. I mean, number one, thank you for writing the book and doing all the work and research. It's so, so helpful. And this will be this, I guarantee you. It's already so helpful for so many people. But then also just being with us today, being just so open and you're such a fun guest. We appreciate the time we've had with you and just thanks for being on with us today.

Well, thanks. It's been fun.

And wherever you're at on your journey, Pure Desire is here to help create a roadmap for your healing. If you or someone you know is impacted by sexual brokenness, go to PureDesire.org and let's start the healing journey today. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Each week we put out new content to help you on the road to freedom from the effects of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. And lastly, never stop being healthy.