In this conversational segment, Nick Stumbo and Bob explore how hidden "subplots"—core beliefs rooted in shame—fuel addictive behaviors, using an iceberg metaphor to illustrate that surface actions are buoyed by deeper messages of worthlessness. They argue that embracing one's identity as a child of God, grounded in Scripture, can replace shame with truth and transform these internal narratives. Drawing on Dr. Kurt Thompson’s framework, they identify four innate human needs—safety, being seen, security, and soothing—and explain how unmet needs drive compulsive sexual behaviors like pornography as false attempts to meet those needs. The dialogue emphasizes shifting from shame‑based discussions of relapse to grace‑filled, analytical conversations that foster growth. Bob shares a personal anecdote about a near‑accident with his father, highlighting a non‑shaming response that asked, "Are you okay? What did we learn?" This example illustrates how compassionate feedback can model healthier communication within recovery groups.
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So Bob, a lot of these patterns that we're talking about are really being driven by subplots about our value, our worth, our identity. So what are those subplots of belief that you have seen driving our behaviors, and how does embracing our identity as God's child, our true identity, reshape those internal messages?
Yeah, and some of our resources, uh, or in our speaking engagements, we, we use a graphic of an iceberg. And the part of the iceberg that's above the surface of the water is our behaviors. But the thing that's giving our behaviors buoyancy is really these subplots. And so for sexual addiction, what's giving that behavior buoyancy is the subplot of core beliefs. And really, it's shame. Right. So all of these ideas about worthlessness— I'm not accepted, I'm not valued, I'm a failure— these are all expressions of shame. And so if we've never taken time to identify those shame messages for ourselves, then all we've, all we've ever seen, and all the world around us has ever seen, is the behaviors above the surface. But those behaviors are not what's giving that iceberg buoyancy. Our shame is. And, you know, the thing, the thing that I feel like— I know this is a bold statement— but the thing that I feel like is the most important thing that I get from my relationship with Jesus, beyond salvation even, is that I can trust what he says about who I am.
Hmm.
And, uh, like, he did what he did because of the view that Jesus has, that God has of who I am. And other people might be able to tell me that, but— and it might help momentarily with how I feel about myself, with my shame. But ultimately, God's Word about who I am is what has the ability to change those perspectives and heal that shame and take away the buoyancy from the destructive behaviors.
Yeah, I appreciate an author that we've spoken a lot of has been on the podcast, Dr. Kurt Thompson. He writes about that that all of us are born with needs to be safe, seen, secure, and soothed. And that's you know you look at a baby; it's like babies cry when they're not safe, seen, soothed, secure. And and what he points out is that that those needs continue all through our life. And if you think about the lies we listen to about ourselves, it's that one of those areas is our needs are not being met. I'm not safe. I'm not seen. I'm not good enough. I don't measure up. I don't have what it takes, and I don't know how to soothe myself. And so pornography or other sexual behaviors becomes a way to try to give a false answer to those legitimate questions. And I think that's where we can really experience transformation when we're able to realize, like you said, Bob, that rather than being driven by the shame of I'm not enough, I don't matter, I don't have what it takes, or whatever lies we believe, If we can embrace these God-given desires to be seen and safe, soothed, secure, and see the ways that he or other people in our lives are a part of meeting those needs in a real way, then we can start to quiet the voice of lies that cause us to go back to the old behavior because we no longer need what that old pattern provides. Because in Christ, we can feel seen, we can feel secure in relationships, we can feel known and loved and valued, and all of that is is what causes us to conquer this desire for relapse, not simply the white-knuckling of it. I'm never gonna do that again. It's like we understand why. We get below the surface and see what's driving the iceberg, see what's causing all the energy. And as it's diffused, we really can experience transformation. So Bob, you talked about this, that a lot of our struggle, past behaviors, addiction have been covered in shame and it was hard to talk about. So as we're growing in recovery, what does it look like to start talking openly about relapse patterns without shame, seeing it as something that we're analyzing and learning from? And, and how can grace reshape those conversations so they lead to growth instead of being about fear and shame?
Yeah, uh, you're talking about a traffic accident earlier, and it reminded me this time when I was in high school. And my dad and I, we were working at one of his rental houses, and we'd left the house separately in different cars. He went one direction, I went another, but we were both headed back home. And I was— he was in his Camaro, I was in my 1974 Nova. And he's at an intersection getting ready to turn right. I'm on the street that he's waiting to turn onto, and I see him wave at me, you know, like he needed something. And so I went, I got over to the right and I went to stop and my brakes locked up. And so if this were a movie, there would have been a camera on my face, big eyes, his face, big eyes, my face, big eyes, right? And my car is like skidding, skidding towards the driver's side door of his Camaro. And I stopped—
Oh, wow.
Maybe a foot away from his car. And I got out and I walked over and I said, hey, you waved at me. You know, and he said, yeah, I was just wondering if you grabbed my phone. I said, no, but I'll go get it. I went and got it. When we got back to our house, he was in the garage doing something at the workbench. And I walked in and he said, are you okay? I said, yep. And he said, well, what did we learn from that? And he could have— I mean, so many of us have had different dad experiences than that, right? He could have been furious, like throwing, you know, throwing wrenches in the garage, right? Right, asking me like, what's wrong with me? I mean, he could have gone so many different directions, but his response was, are you okay? And what did we learn from that? And I think that within a group setting—
That's good.
When we're practicing, right, maybe some of these near crashes or maybe even a crash, that in a group scenario, in a group setting, you're gonna hear those questions. Are you okay? And what did we learn from that? It's not going to be the shaming, right? It's not going to be, what's wrong with you? How could you even do that? Right? Like, what were you thinking? It's, it's not going to be that response. It's going to be one of care and concern, but also one of, all right, what do we do moving forward so that this doesn't happen again? And that's so contradictory to what many of us have experienced in life when we do things that are quote unquote wrong, or when we do things that aren't healthy. Right, we're met with shaming language, but in a recovery group, you're not met with that. Right, you're met with love, compassion, care, but also a desire to help you move forward and not stay stuck in those patterns. And trying to do this on your own, you're not gonna find that. You're gonna hear all that shame language in your own head of like, what's wrong with you? And that's just not helpful.
