In this panel‑style conversation, Nick Stumbo, Rebecca, Shelley, and another expert discuss how spouses of people struggling with addiction can navigate the painful reality when the partner appears to have given up on recovery. They introduce a three‑tier framework for categorising the addict’s engagement – active recovery, apathetic/off‑the‑rails, and a “messy middle” or “sitting on the fence.” For the betrayed spouse, they recommend naming the pattern, deliberately “pushing the partner off the fence” to see which direction they choose, and continuously reassessing the relationship. The core advice centres on self‑focused healing: regulating one’s nervous system, expanding the window of tolerance, and growing a healthy self‑identity that can influence the partner and clarify whether to stay or exit. Metaphors such as recovery being a stair‑step process where “the cement has to dry” help reframe perceived stagnation. The panel also stresses the importance of holding space, balancing personal character work with relational support, and viewing a healthy, growing self as the greatest gift one can give to a marriage, even if the partner does not change. Practical suggestions include solo counseling, group work, reading, and using the podcast as a tool for personal growth.
Chapters
How would you guys encourage that one spouse that it's sort of in this one-sided healing, um, and the— their spouse has given up or just not interested?
Yeah, I mean, you go.
Well, I think the answer is, is going to be really different for each of us, so I'll speak to the betrayed spouse. We see this a lot. I mean, there's, I kind of, there's 3 categories. Either the addict is hitting it out of the park, doing really great recovery work, or he, well, the addict is like, eh, you know, nope, not interested in this, no thank you. But most addicts are somewhere in the middle. They're kind of in that gray.
That messy middle.
Yeah, back to the messy middle. And what I call this sitting on the fence. He's sitting on the fence. There's times when it's like, oh, okay. Yeah. I feel a little safer. I think he, he, he feel he's holding my heart. And then there's times where it feels like he has just, he's off the rails, off the rails. And so what I work with, one is we want to name that. I'm a big fan, obviously, of naming things because that's going to help give us some agency and authority, if you will, over it. If, if the addict is sitting on the fence for a long period of time, um, I work with the betrayed spouse on pushing him off the fence. I think there's some things that we can do to push him off the fence and really see which way he lands. Where is he going to land? We can't choose that. We can't change him. We can't the addict. Um, but I do think that there are some things we can do to, to push him off the fence. I think also for those in the category where he's just like not doing the work, I think then again, in my case, she has to figure out, does she want to stay in that relationship and what does it look like to stay well? Or is it time to exit the relationship? So again, I think it depends on which category. Is he on the fence? Is he completely off the rail?
Completely.
And then taking some next steps and continuing to just reassess, um, okay, what, what do I want to do given what's happening in the relationship? I will tell you again, in my case, most women, they will roll out the red carpet for him. They will wait They do not want the relationship to end. They— most of the women we, we work with, they are willing to be very patient and, and wait for him to get it. Yes. Um, and, and maybe that's also part of the question, you know, how do I encourage that spouse? That's okay too. It's okay for you to wait. We want to continue to reassert because reassess. We know that, um, what's the verse?
Hope deferred, I don't remember, makes the heart sick, um, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.
There you go. Yes. And so we, we do want to continue to reassess because at some point, if we are— if we're holding on to false hope, it is going to make us sick. Yeah. So that's a complex situation. What would you say?
Absolutely.
I think something that is an important, just again, 30,000-foot thing, and then we'll talk practical, is so often what we experience, what we see people experience, is recovery isn't— recovery is like stair steps. You make some progress, and then you kind of like, the cement has to dry. And then you make some pro— and then you hit a wall, and then you make some progress, and then— The process almost kind of breathes as you go through it. And that's hard to conceptualize because as you go farther and farther in recovery, the flat line gets longer and longer. And it can start to feel like, yeah, we're just stuck. Nothing. There's no new revelation, no new insight. We've read the books, we've done the count, you know, and it starts to feel hard in that space. And so conceptually, just helping people remember, oftentimes what's happening in there is the cement is drying. Foundational things in y'all's relationship are starting to concretize that will get you to the next level, right? So conceptually, back down to practical, I go back to what I said a while ago as I'm speaking to husbands in this case. As a husband I'm, from here on out, my job is to create the safest container I can for her to be the most whole person she can be. And so if that's my call, that means I've got to continue to work to get healthy. I've got to continue to learn more about her and what it means for her to be healthy. I've got to continue to learn more about her from an intimate standpoint about her needs and longing and want and pain and And so if that's my call and then that's my work, then I'm never stuck.
Yes, yes.
There's never not something for me to be working on in this.
Yes, that personal self-focused healing and growth.
Well, us-focused healing.
Yes.
Yeah, right.
That it's, it's— yes, there's that personal character work, but it's also that How do I hold space well in the 3 years where she's put her Bible in the nightstand?
Right.
How do I hold space well when we're on the backside of a breakdown and I come home to all the lights shut off? Right. How, how do I hold space well? And it's, it is a, it's symbiotic, right? It's my personal character work, our relational work.
Yeah.
But there's never a point where the idea is Well, I'm stuck, and so I'm just waiting.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too, Rebecca, because I know you and Bob work with a lot of couples, and inevitably there's going to be somewhere he— and, and, you know, not to use a gender specifically, but more often than not, it's he's the struggler addict, she's the betrayed. What have you encouraged that betrayed spouse with when it's evident he's not doing the work he needs to, or he's kind of just gotten apathetic or given up.
Yeah.
Uh, how do you encourage that spouse to keep working through their pain?
Yeah.
When it's not a partnership?
Absolutely. And I, I think I would piggyback on, on Shelley, what you were sharing, right? Um, that self-focus, which I also just shared, right? Like, just focus on yourself. What can you do? What are— that's what you can control in this moment is what you can do in your own healing and your own growth. Uh, granted, that is, you know, that transfers over to the relationship and that dynamic. But when it comes down to it, as long as you are focused on your healing, your growth, uh, you're regulating your, your nervous system and gaining new tools to effectively navigate all these fears that are coming, coming at you, then the bigger your window of tolerance is and the more, uh, clear, educated decisions you can make when you are reassessing, uh, where you're at in the relationship, and if you need to do something else than what you're doing. And, um, and even in communicating where you're at or your fears with your spouse that may be stuck, um, by you doing that self-focus, you're going to be able to communicate more effectively and more compassionate and graciously so that hopefully he receives it well. But then again, that's on him, right? You can't control that.
Well, I, I think that's one of our big messages at Pure Desire, that the greatest gift we give to others is a healthy, growing self.
Oh my gosh.
And, and that idea can be liberating in a marriage for someone to realize, I can become healthy even if you don't, that you're going to make your choices. And that means even, you know, God forbid, if that marriage ends, the greatest future for you is a healthy self that you could bring to your family or friends or a future marriage. And, and I always say too, the greatest likelihood of that marriage making it is you bringing a healthy self. And that actually, without controlling the other person, will have the greatest influence on them is your own evolving self into greater health and freedom, like they're going to either get on board and go like, wow, I'm missing something and I want to be a part of this, or it will naturally create the clarity of we're not going to go in the same direction here. So I, I think that freedom of I can be healthy even if they don't is, is really a focal point that in some ways, if you're not familiar with thinking that way, can almost feel like a kind of betrayal to the marriage of like I'm leaving you behind. No, no, you're doing the best thing you can for the good of the marriage is your health. And so we, yeah, encourage that even if you're joining group alone, or you're doing counseling alone, or you're reading the book alone, you're listening to this podcast and he refuses. This is good for you. And if it's good for you, it's the best thing you can take to other people.
