This is a multi-speaker YouTube conversation (2023) led by Nick Stumbo and others about why churches struggle to create safe, effective pathways for people dealing with pornography and sexual brokenness. The discussion cites a Barna (2016) finding (only 7% of churches had a specific plan), explores pastor-level barriers (lack of training, discomfort, fear of hypocrisy or burden, unrealistic expectations), cultural misconceptions (thinking more Bible reading/church attendance is sufficient), and how committed pastoral support and structured discipleship can produce leaders and healing over time.
Questions this video answers
7% (Barna, 2016).
So Sam, I know you guys have used a stat that we've talked about a lot as well. That research done by Barna and you guys helped Commission back in 2016 suggested that only 7% of all churches had a specific plan to help people in their church in this area of pornography and sexual brokenness. And so with that number, it's almost one. We'd say, well, that can't be true, except Barna did it and Barna knows what they're doing and it's in there, so it must be true. In light of that, why is it that churches struggle so much to create the safe place and the safe process that you're talking about? When people admit they need help and they actually want to get help, why do churches struggle to create that pathway?
That question could take up this entire hour, right?
Yeah, for sure.
We could just keep going. I think. One, just one thing, and that's one of the reasons I wrote the book in such an empathetic way, is that I can sort of get where many pastors and leaders come from who have never struggled with pornography because the desire for pornography for me today feels far, it feels icky. It feels like that's just a trap. I don't want to go in there. I'm not there. That's going to do nothing for me. What am I going to get out of that? And I don't see that at any means of pride. And I, I, I, I'm, I'm in my, my every meeting every week with, with fellow Samson brothers and etc, I protect them. But, but I get where some pastors can come from of just stop that, quit that. God's not for that. Why would you do that? Does it, that doesn't make any sense. Why are you doing that? And at the same time, many will get, oh yeah, I, I get the idea of, of lust. You know, I've seen someone I thought was beautiful and I've had to advert my eyes or something like that because I, you know, maybe I was looking too long. You know, there's sometimes a true disconnect in the church where they don't really understand the prison that's created, the stronghold that has taken over mind, body and sp in someone's life. And so really understanding that, that, that underlying issue is just so vital for a ministry leader. So I think that's, that's part of it. We look at our, our larger culture and we think, well, if people just love Jesus more or if they just study their Bible more or if they were just more Attended church more, if they did these things more. And so if we have the, this exciting event or if we make people feel welcome, all these other things where we're not really pressing into this need. Well, there's so many other things that garner our attention and attraction within the church. And let's keep in mind the poor pastor, he's been. I talked to a pastor, he had been bawled out by one of the ladies in his church for saying the word prostitute while he was preaching about Rahab. Now there's no getting around that.
That's what the Bible calls literally the word in there.
It's the scripture, right? And so he was reading from scripture and he goes, sam, if I get bald out for that, how do I respond? And my answer was, well, you need to grow up. That's. But the pastor has a difficult time saying that. But I think it's even more important too that when we with the primer and understanding of the deeper impact of pornography on the individual, then we have a deeper understanding of why there needs to be a safe place and a safe process to find freedom, that the warning isn't enough. I'm all for spiritual disciplines, I think it's imperative. But I have talked to many men and women who said, I thought if I read more and prayed more that I could just get out of this. And until I really stepped into a process that held me in place long enough for Christ to do his work in my life, for the Holy Spirit to create that change in my life. And I think that's what's missing is we think that, well, I've told them what to do and that they go do it, that's fine. But the problem is in our own willful desire, with the stronghold that was in our life, we want to run back. We lean on our own understanding instead of Christ's understanding and we enter back into behaviors that lead to more destruction. And so that's what a pat. You know, pastors don't often realize that I need to lead a culture in my church that changes how we talk about pornography and other habits and hang ups and addictions and recognize that, hey, we have something for you here. We love you where you're at, but we love you too much. Maybe the same. And if you will be willing to join us because you can only lead the willing into a safe process, then we can take you where you're not running back constantly to self soothing behavior or whatever it is so that again, being held in place long enough for real change to happen.
Yeah, I Think a lot of this too comes from an unrealistic expectation for a pastor to be the expert in every area, you know, and you can go to even the lack of education that you talked about in seminaries, Bible colleges, like, I mean, I just graduated in August of last year. I did not receive any training whatsoever on sexual integrity, how to help people with that process, how to manage my own. And that's not a knock on seminaries. They do a great job. I think that's just a missing piece. I think also this expectation that pastors need to lead everything, that they have to be in charge or be the one pushing everything. And like, that's also not true. And then we've talked about it already in your quote. It's funny, the quote from that you quoted from Nick's book, that idea of the messy nature of it is just something that's really hard to measure. And I think sometimes out of fear of seeming like we're failing or not meeting expectations or not succeeding as a church, let's just not mess with the messy things. Because then there's. I'm not able to say, oh yes, 100% what we're doing is working or whatever. It's just, it's hard to be in that in between of the in process. And I think those things cater to why it's so difficult for churches to do it.
I waited a long time before we started some financial classes for people, partly because I felt like I. I don't have financial issues. It's not that hard. Just don't spend more than you make. Credit card debt's dumb. Everyone knows that. They can figure it out. Plus, it seemed like a lot of work and time and I just didn't feel like it was my area of expertise and I had too much I was doing already. So I just kept kicking that can down the road. And I wonder if there aren't a lot of leaders that feel similar ways about pornography and these struggles if it hasn't been that big of an issue in their life. It's like, well, just don't look at it like I did. And if you are having a problem, stop. And I've got too much to do anyway, and so why engage in this? And then even more so, you know, if we did have huge financial problems, if you're hugely in debt, well, you're not going to run a financial class. You're like, well, who am I to start this? Or, you know, it might expose my own hypocrisy about money. Well, yeah. And then even More so if it is an unaddressed struggle for a pastor in their sexuality, they don't feel like they've got anything to say, and they feel it's hypocritical to start something when they know they need it for themselves first. So I think either side of it, the pastor's kind of in this double bind that if it's not my issue, I'm not passionate enough about it to start. And if it is my issue, I probably don't want to go there for a lot of personal reasons. So I think you put all that together, it's like, well, there's probably a lot of reasons. This is a hard place for pastors to lean into.
Remember, one thing you said earlier struck a nerve with me, and it's in the book and it talks about the pastor who says, I've got to do this. I've got all this other work to do. How am I supposed to do this too? What we found in the churches that are doing this. Well, over and over and over again, pastor's not doing the work. He is. He isn't. He's not just saying, okay, you guys, you guys just go ahead and do that over there. No, he is like, I'm interested in this work. This is important. I want to make sure that our church knows about it. I'm going to equip you, God, men, women, etc, for these groups and really address pornography and unwanted sexual behaviors. Well, we're going to do that. You have my, not just my backing, I am pressing in with you. However, he's not doing the work, and that pastor is not doing the work. And so over and over again, what I found was pastors would say, I, they took stuff off my plate. They didn't add to my plate.
Amen.
Once I had people going through a real process, being discipled, guess what I got? I got more disciples. And those disciples led other disciples and they would lead the other courses, the, the, the marriage class and other classes, and they were giving back to the church. And instead of seeking and trying to coerce other people into volunteering in the church just because they had that discipleship plan, restoring people from pornography and other other things, like their other struggles, et cetera, as well, they were recruiting and creating disciples that led others.
Absolutely. Which is what we want at the end of the day in any area of our church.
