Building a shared vision: emotions, collective imagination and authenticity - Ep 02 Zavaro and Yoad

What's up? Welcome, welcome everyone. How's it going? This is the second episode of the Nun Podcast Show that Yoav and I have decided to do. So for those of you who haven't listened to the first podcast, my name is Nir Zavaro. Yoav, make my other anchor, co-host, friend. You're good for that?

The other side, the co-inspirationalists.

Yeah, so the idea for this show started when we had some interesting conversations and we decided to record them. I'm in Thailand at the moment and you are in Helsinki.

The opposite.

You know, it actually rained. I just uploaded a YouTube video from Saturday. We went riding on some scooters around some coffee farms and it was raining and it felt a bit of like European style, but today everybody's back to shirts, t-shirts, and flip-flops.

The snow here is an atonement to another climate.

So how's your Monday going so far? What's up and what do you want to talk about today?

First of all, I think the first episode was an epic success. You were wondering if it's epic failure or success. Epic success. So today we're gonna— Monday is great here and we're gonna talk about just a— just for those just Joining us is the crosspoint between storytelling and imagination. So this is both the sides that we take, looking at it from also the personal perspective, professional perspective, the storytelling and the brand perspective. So we're going to be looking at different things that we're working with. It's interesting. Maybe I'll just start with what we talked about before, that this morning I was just working with this researcher in this university that was supposed to give a pitch. And I think we were We were talking about this, and it's interesting to hear your perspective as well. But instead of just starting to work on his slides and what he wants to say and how he wants to say, I think one of the first things that I asked him was to write down 3 things that he was really proud of himself for doing in this project that he wants to present, something that he's— that it not just connects to his logical but also his emotional, and it makes him have this sense of pride that I want to share this and I want people to really I want to give myself the opportunity to talk about this and for people to listen about what I'm really proud of in this project. And that was sort of the starting point of just reimagining what it is. How do we really want to tell a story? How do we want to tell a pitch? How do we want to present the idea that is very much not just this is what we did, but from a place of this is how we're proud of it and this is what we want to represent. From that point on, how do you catch people's attention?

So this is Christmas. So from listening to you speak, I understand I need to send you a gift, my book, right?

Exactly.

That's a good thing. It's called Fuck the Slides. But basically, it's all about the way we convey a message is emotional. And one of the things we teach people first is how to look at all the data key points that they want to talk about, put them in buckets, and then put them aside. Now let's tell a story. And then we'll make sure that they appear throughout the story, but they're a bit more like adding some seasoning to the story, right? So we can't have 100% fluff and we can't have 100% data, but what if we can find the right mix between the emotional, the key messages, and actual data? Exactly.

But it's like we talk about, so people are, you know, from the campfires of today, people love to hear stories, to connect to stories. But when we forgot the art of telling a story, which is actually why, you know, I wanted to dive into that book and the things that we talk about, it's like, One of the key things that is how we tell a story, and the second thing is like to understand that people are not inside our head. So you're saying, duh, it's a no-brainer. Of course people are not inside their head. But when we start to tell something, we just pick up from the point that we're thinking. Understanding that there's an entire backstory, there's entire context, there's this— I call this collective imagination. How do I connect what I imagine with— I don't know what you imagine, but we create something together and then it becomes ours. There's this— we're in the same ballpark. Now we start imagining together, we start creating together, and then I'm able to tell you everything that's in my mind. But until I do that, I can't do this. And you see this in stories like Star Wars, in a galaxy far, far away, there lived a Jedi, blah, blah, blah, blah. You have to have the setting before you start talking to me about what it is that you want to talk about. We're not even in the same ballpark.

Yeah. So why do people love stories behind— when we sit around the campfire, people love to hear stories around the campfire, right? But we sit there and we're like, do you want to have a funny story or do you want to hear a scary story? Nobody says, do you want to hear the story about about this and this and this and this, and you go on for 3 minutes explaining the thing. We pick how you want to feel in the next 5, 10, 15 minutes of a story. I remember when we were in the— I was in the Scouts and we would sit there and the kids would ask us to tell them scary stories. You expect to feel scared, very basic emotion. So everything we do, the buildup, the excitement, right? It's what bringing them closer and then scaring them.

It's also that you know what to expect as well, or at least you don't prepare them for the details, or as you said, like about the— but you prepare them for what you're about to experience. They can't—

yeah. So I think people forget something very, very basic. It's the idea that we need to convey a message and people think we need to convey information. Okay? So what happens is you throw all the information, it's like throwing the spaghetti on the wall and expecting your audience to like something would stick, but you don't control what sticks, how they're gonna react, nothing. So instead, if we start by the concept of what is a story, How do we want people to feel about it? And a good example, by the way, is sometimes we go on stage and the first thing we say is we say something funny, a bit of a joke. We call it an icebreaker. What's interesting is if you go to talk about something serious and you do an icebreaker which was for you, not for the audience, you actually screwed up because now you went from funny to very serious. We can't go that fast with you. We don't exactly grasp it, which means we lose the first few seconds. We're like, now we're talking, now we're talking. Now we're in the business.

Okay, but that's really the— I'll put a pin in that. I'll come back to this. But it's an interesting point that you make. Who do you do it for? But continue.

Who do you do it for? What, the pitch?

No, but you said something very interesting that you go on stage and people don't follow you if you make a funny icebreaker and then jump to the serious. People don't go at your pace. They're not inside your head. They don't— you have to understand they follow. But I think it also brings the question, as you said, you make that funny joke for yourself. So really, who do you do it for? Who are you standing there for? Are you standing there for them? Are you standing there for you? What opportunity are you giving yourself? And then what opportunity are you giving them? I think that's—

I'll give you an example from last week. I'm working with an Olympic medalist. He has the signature talk. I was asked to help. We did it. Going great. Everybody's happy. Then I get a call. Hey, we need to prep him for a different type of talk. Only 20 minutes. And it's like a sort of a teaser. There's going to be EHR from tech companies. Let's say 75 of them are women. Now, most of them know who he is. He's like this delicate giant. He's very nice when he smiles, right? And women love him. Now, we could have done something funny about the sport, but I suggested, and it went really well, where he went on stage and said, hi, this is my name, this is my age, this is where I live, I'm this. And then he looked a bit confused and said, oh, no, this is not what I meant. And every woman there laughed because it sounded like he was doing the intro for a dating show, and it fit the context of the talk because when he said, no, no, no, this is not my arena, I'm in a different arena, but he's talking about— okay, people got it, it made them laugh. But the next step, the next sentence was easy, and then another one. And on the 4th or the 5th scene, we go into this stressful moment. Okay. So if you look, by the way, at your stories and what you want to say, the key messages and the emotion, what's interesting is they have to be connected. So if this was funny, what's next? It can be sad, right?

That's true. That's super interesting because I think there's 2 ways to bring people in. Like you said, it's basically, I call this like imagining with you, but if there's a One of the things that help you form this expectation of what's to come, it's basically connecting on something that we all can have our unique interpretation for, which is experience, which is emotion. And each one of us can actually interpret it in a certain way, and then we're actually curious as to what's going on. So even if you use, like he used, vulnerability in actually a very good and powerful way, And that actually makes people actually lower their resistance, actually want to go with you on this journey, if you will. And interesting to hear what's the next part and what does it lead to because they're already involved. So I think, you know, they keep talking about the icebreakers and the gags or you talk to the audience. But I think unless you do this in a very powerfully vulnerable way or an authentic way that they feel that they're really involved rather than just I check the box of engage with audience, check, moving on. Like you just described that it did, it actually creates something that is combined and then they move with you to the next part, to the next part, and then people are like owners with you in this entire thing, just like a story, they're part of the story.

So I'll give you a word I don't like to start a pitch with. Imagine that is a bad word because if I tell you about an epic battle that happened 1,000 years ago, You will imagine something. Why? Because you saw something, you read something, you are able to imagine. When I tell you to imagine, that means I can't set up the scene. So, I need to tell you, hey, stop what you're doing and thinking now. Now we go, I take you to a different scene. Why? People have the ability to imagine. They have an ability to complete in between the lines. Again, everything I'm telling you is explained in the book. One, which you mentioned, is experience. And the second one is when I write a book, basically what am I doing? I'm giving you a white piece of paper and black ink. You, my friend, imagine everything in between. And that is the magic. I don't need to tell you to imagine. You will imagine. People—

I'll challenge you on that.

You have that ability.

Well, I'll challenge that because I think you're absolutely right. But I think there's a middle ground because what I discover, and this is the essence of imagination for me, it's imagining something in the future that's not defined by existing limitations, meaning taking you, let go of what's happening now and let's go on somewhere that is not defined or structured by what you already know, but to imagine a change that doesn't exist yet. So I'm taking you into this place, and the story does that, you know, let go of what you think everything is or the realities around you, and let's now take a journey somewhere else. And I think it's easier said than done for people because they are still holding on to the visualizations that they have, to the norms that they have, to the status quo, to what is socially acceptable, and so on and so on. And when you're trying to create, and the bigger The change that you're trying to present and to imagine with them, the harder it is, and they'll always drag you back to where it is. So a lot of times I actually do ask people to— as a stepping stone, you're right, I don't want to use imagine this because then I'm telling you I can't set up. But I will tell them, in order to help them break away, start with imagine that we could do this, would you like that? Or something like that. Then, so yes, tapping not on the experience— imagine we had that experience, would you like that? And if people then agree with you, then they go on this journey with you. Because sometimes it's even hard for the presenter to take people out. So I think it's a middle step to creating the experience that you want.

So going back, I believe visualization is one aspect. Imagination is one part of it. But if I'll tell you, imagine something, then I'm asking you to make an effort. Stop everything we're doing now. Come with me. But if I'll tell you, you had the conversation that you and I will have at this time, December 2027, when this podcast is still here and we have thousands of followers and we managed to find that one thing, that special something, and we keep doing this and this hobby grows and grows. But this time I want us to have it. in the middle of somewhere, could be in Israel, could be in London, could be in New York, and we're going to have a 30-year-old whiskey sitting up at the 30th floor of a hotel. You and I can imagine a hotel and you're now nodding. That means I didn't need to tell you to imagine something. I can put you there. When people read the book, the book doesn't start like, imagine we'll go back to Russia in the 7th century. It stops immediately by the thing.

Absolutely right. But that's the thing, people are— sorry, we'll learn how to do this back and forth thing.

Yeah, the delay, the small delays is amazing.

No, no, you keep going. Edit this later.

I think what is important is people inherently are wired to imagine a lot of things like fear. Right? Like the potential success, a lot of things, but they also don't wanna leave their comfort zones to say, nah. And the negative is always a winner over positivity because we don't wanna leave the couch cuz running is hard. So it is okay. It's an understandable reaction to how we address certain challenges in life. Okay.

I'll add to that. It's also, there's a measure of commitment. And I know it's funny to say commitment, but then you commit to now forming a future reality that is not something that's already defined. So it takes a commitment to do this. Like you talk about writing things down, and I'm a very big advocate of that in workshops and trainings. Like how do you actually commit to a word and write it down and not just have floating thoughts? Even to ask people to imagine that is a commitment in that sense. And it's walking into the unknown. Walking into uncertainty in a certain way. And then, and you're telling them there's no right or wrong, it's simply you putting yourself, you know, in this future state. But you understand that people have a lot of resistance. And I think one of the things is like to understand is that the resistance is what keeps us in that uncomfortable comfort zone or on that couch, like you say. And I think that's the biggest thing. And once you understand that, then you understand that you have to, in order to create people to create this collective imagining or creative storytelling, something that belongs to everyone, you have to have people agree to lower their own resistance and then things start to happen. We talked about last time about how it is to step out of the box and I was mentioning that to me the box is so many different boxes, even to a brand or to a person and to whatever you think it's like, but in order to understand to yourself where your box is, is how do you walk to those limitations that are actually blocking you? When you walk to the outside, skirts of the comfort zone. It is that thing. So I think, again, overcoming resistance is allowing people to do this in a safe way. So sometimes saying, imagine this, and then walking with you is helping them just to see that it's okay to go out. Nothing that, you know, but you're absolutely right that when I'm done with this one, what you created with ethereal whiskey, it is actually the, I built myself the own experience. I felt comfortable enough to build this experience and then I went there. And I'm sure that the whiskey, my head and your head looks different, the room looks different, and the place looks different. Doesn't matter. The experience, what we feel, that's, that's the collective. That's the thing.

I'll share with you the part of my work now, the Business Culture, the next book about brands, is interesting because if you put a lot of people in a room, let's call them a management team, okay? If they don't understand where they came from, And they don't have the vision. What I'm learning that they're lacking is actually the mission, or more than that, the lack of. So the mission, right, is the day-to-day things we need to do to go from the origin story to the vision. Every hero's journey that we know in every story, and this is it. The problem that we forgot to put in brands is what makes us stick together. If we have a story and a common vision that we can imagine, this is where we're going to, when things get tough, one will pick up the other and say, don't worry, I've got you, let's keep going. But if we are not able to imagine that concept, more than that, write it down, the brand at every intersection that the problem appears will split because it'll be too hard, not enough money, not enough grit to keep going, and so on. And a big part of what I'm talking about today in the book, and I've been writing very interesting things in the last week, is I need the darkness. I need the negativity. There is no Luke Skywalker without Darth Vader, which is the example people love to give. Yeah. By the way, the story of Nike without Onitsuka Tiger wouldn't exist. They just would have been Onitsuka Tiger distributors and you would never hear about them. The coming back of Steve Jobs or anything, the comeback story. We need those. So I'm working on how do we actually implement the negativity. If I don't go to the gym, what will happen? And we all have these discussions, but we don't put them in a management team, in a boardroom and talk about it and solve it. And it's part of what I'm adding now. And it just feels suddenly very comfortable to write it, if you understand what I'm saying.

Yeah, but I think that there's, there's something about negativity. First of all, there's a negativity bias, you know, that the research that I keep talking about, the fact that they, they do, and that 75% of all future, uh, scenario thoughts, any imagined future thoughts, would be negative because our subconscious protects us, and that's how we, we developed over the years, and, and so on. So the thing is that we are What I discover is that when you sort of neutralize all the resistance, people actually have a very positive way of imagining things. And I do that through art or through abstract. And then you notice when there's no place for these, for the safety measures that keep us, you know, alive back in the caveman times, which is not relevant today, but these, this, our subconscious still works that way. Our monkey brain still operates that way. You understand there's a lot of positivity and beautifulness. I think there's— the point is that people, when you present it with the negative, will go to the negative and forget that there's actually an ability to imagine actually the positive thing. So, you know, there's either a pessimist or an optimist. But so even to that example, I was actually asked the question, can a pessimist become an optimist? So it's a little side thing, but still, to answer that, I said that actually pessimists can be the most brilliant optimists. Because their ability to take a situation and then construct the worst-case scenario that can come with all the faults and everything and all the downsides that can be, all the threats— if they're able to apply and imagine the positive opportunities that can come from this at the same time— not to take this away, this exists and then that exists, but we never look at the positive— but if they're able to do that, they can actually then be the most brilliant optimist because they can devise a plan to take everything that could destroy you and And a lot of time with startups, I— an executive, we work exactly on this. How do we destroy ourselves only to then, to like the phoenix, rise from the ashes? And when you just understand that these two things at the same time, then you can take what you just said and implement the negativity so we can actually use it as a bouncing board to, you know, rise up.

Yeah.

But unless we understand how to do that, it can drag us down like a stone because it's very comfortable. Safe and we're used to thinking negative.

Yeah. Let me take you. So let's say we wrap up this and with a, a, a note. Um, you said, and then you can pick up and then you need this. I've been kind of like hanging around digital nomads for the last month or so. Everything's happy, happy, joy, joy, right? Social media pictures, Instagram, everybody's happy, everybody's making money. I don't need a boss. And on my last newsletter on Saturday, I called bullshit and I wrote a piece called Don't Lie to Yourself, or You Can, Nobody Cares. And the reason is because what I'm seeing is now everybody does the public figures very, very positive, but the gap that becomes with the negativity is behind closed doors. And most of them are very lonely, which means that the negative negativity is in such a high volume. That's overwhelming for some of them, which I think is horrible because 99.9% of the people I've met are just awesome. Some of them, by the way, could have had a great job, made a lot of money, travel four times a year to visit Thailand and not get stuck here as a life that they don't like. And I think we need to put negativity a bit more on the forefront of doing things. And you see that now with a lot of YouTubers. Quick thing, 2025 is going to be a huge year for small YouTube creators. YouTube has changed their algorithm, which means that if before you needed to have 100,000, 500,000, a million followers or subscribers to even start your journey, because if not, it's so hard, nobody would see you. YouTube came in and said, well, wait, let's give a chance to these young people. Let's give it to the newcomers. Why? Because someone with 300 subscribers If they start getting some traction, they fucking push. So you now see people with a million, 500, right? Which is really interesting. But these people are talking about the struggle, the fact that they did YouTube for 2 years, how they started, why it's hard to start, why it's hard to keep going. A lot of them that we always heard about consistency, but they talk about why it's hard to stay consistent. And all of a sudden you're seeing a new wave of people talking honestly about stuff. And I invite people to do the same, I think, on LinkedIn, for example, which was probably the most boring social platform ever. I don't even know if you can even call it a social platform as it's so boring, right? And then you see one post blow up and everyone's like, I cracked the code. And then you see so many different stuff and Shout out to Eden, a very good friend of mine. And we've been going back and forth on good posts and good people. If you're someone, everybody likes you because it's the thing on LinkedIn and it's less about the content. And I think the young people, the ones that will be honest and will talk about struggles building something in 2025, I believe they would win. And you know what?

If they, even if they don't, in my opinion, they deserve to This leads to something that I'm super passionate about, especially you talked about LinkedIn and the fact that it's professional, right? It's a professional network and therefore everybody's successful professionally as well. And maybe on social networks, everybody's, you know, making their life and making money and like you talk about digital nomads. So everybody's got to present their best self and hide everything in the back. And I think that's something that I'm trying to reimagine because this is like, I understood that this is something that I do over the years. And then so I'm trying to practice and then give others opportunities to do this. And I think we do this and it's about becoming powerfully vulnerable. And I discovered through that, through this vulnerability, even in society, for where we come from, vulnerability is a weakness. This is how it's perceived, right? Be vulnerable and fail, do all this. That's a vulnerable thing that is too personal and therefore I will not share it because it also says something about me, and therefore people will perceive me as weak, and therefore I will have less authority, and I will be ta-ta-ta and all that. I won't be— I will be perceived as a non-leader and so on. And then to understand one of the things that harness people the most is actually the ability to look at weakness as something powerful. So I keep talking and trying to tell people to experience what it is to be powerfully vulnerable. How do I present something that is vulnerable in a powerful and confident way. And therefore, what I discovered that without a fail in every workshop, in every training, everything I just saw, I see that people do this and they are reciprocated with an equal powerfully emotional, powerfully vulnerable sharing from the other person. When a manager does this with their employees, when friends do that with other friends and so on, when you're sort of, you're boxed into something, but then you become powerfully vulnerable, you're able to break the box that people boxed you in because people do not expect other people to be powerfully And to use this as a strength. And I always ask people, do you think that it takes away from my authority that I'm silly and jumping and doing all these things? And you understand that no, it doesn't. So once you experience that you're able to do this and people actually empower you, people do this over and over again. And therefore, it feeds back to what you just said. How do we change the narrative to understand that being powerfully vulnerable is actually inviting and inspiring people to say, it's okay?

Yeah.

You know, this is how you can develop what they call a fail-fast culture, even if you take this from the startup nation that we come from, right? How do you develop this? How do you look at failure as something to grow from? Fail and continue. It is because you look at this from a growth opportunity, from a powerful perspective, from a growth opportunity perspective. And so exactly that. I think if we change how we see the weakness, then we can actually do what you suggested. to bring the negativity out, but as a growth mechanism, not as a tearing down mechanism.

So. I think if you want to talk about vulnerability and negativity and everything, again, it has to have the other side. In order to have light, I need the darkness. And if people talk about the light, but there's no darkness, they find out the darkness exists, just not the way they expected. So that is the key. If I'm just, I always tell people that the reason why Israel is so successful is because we love complaining. We'll sit in a bar, it's 8 PM, happy hour is about to finish, everybody complains, right? Hard work, this life, family, kids, everybody fucking complains all the time. And then at a certain point, someone at the table says, dude, I love you. Either you shut up or you fix it. I can't hear your complaints anymore. Boom! Unicorn is born. Very simple, right? What's a good CEO? Someone who loves problem solving. You go in and give me a problem. If you say I don't want to have problems, and that was the beginning of my journey was I always had problems, and at a certain point I didn't enjoy the problems anymore. So I started to hire people to help me. So then just my problems changed. Right? And you need to get to the point where you have either the right staff to deal with the right problems or the right staff not to deal with anything. If not, you're stuck in the dirt doing a lot of things. So for me, the assumption is I love the fact that you want to complain because that's how creativity comes, right? Because you say, okay, this is how you— it could be done better. Great. How? I don't have a solution. That's a problem. By the way, LinkedIn is a great example for positive. I love that idea. So if you get only positive feedback, you can't improve, you can't fix. So in order not to have you insulted, I'll call it creative criticism. I don't need your fucking creative criticism. I need to fix it. I need help. What would you improve? I will decide. If I like what you say or not, but what happens is all these niceties are actually holding us back from moving forward faster. I need to get results, and if everybody's polite and nice, then it's very boring. I saw a post last night. It was like I woke up 2:30 a.m. here, couldn't sleep for some reason. I picked up my phone. The first thing I did. 'Cause LinkedIn, I don't know why, but I saw a post by a girl I know. She's probably close to her 30s. She's been struggling to find a job as a project manager in the tech industry.

All right.

But she seems hardworking and she knows her stuff and very interesting. And we spoke a couple of days ago and she said, I don't know what to do. I'm not finding a job. And I said, talk about that. Because I get 10 calls a week from people who are struggling to find a job, but they can't post on LinkedIn because they're looking for a job. No one will hire them. She posted, exploded, exploded. And people are tagging, hey, if you need someone, she's the right person for you. And she will find a job.

Yeah.

But it's the negativity turned into an action, which is a positive. Hey, I'm here. That gets results.

That is beautiful. That's exactly being powerfully vulnerable. That's the CEO saying, you know what, I'm also facing this, this fear of sometimes standing on stage and, you know, dealing with it. I'm also having this thing. It's like I always say that when you put this powerful vulnerability between people, even in senior roles, you suddenly create— the boss doesn't become just a boss. Suddenly it humanizes them. You become human. You have a role as this, but actually what you understand when you become human, whether it's in the army as an officer, way to running a department or being in a team, when you are actually vulnerable and saying, I'm also human and I have this, it actually gains more respect to you. And I just had this wonderful, very senior person that I'm coaching that he, without the details, he just shared something so powerful. He said that there was a mistake that he made and he really got all upset and had this entire talk. And then he understood he made a mistake. And then he said in his culture, And the hierarchy that they're built— this is in Asia— then you are not supposed to break the hierarchy. And if you do, then you're not supposed to apologize because you're the senior and you don't apologize for this. But he did say, he said, I want to give the opportunity for me to feel that I have corrected this. And he went and he invited the person into their office and he told them that he's sorry. And he described such an emotional moment because that person who did not expect this to come, the respect he had for him, the employee for the manager, rose like tenfold up. And then, of course, this resonates because he will tell this to others and he will pay the respect. So this ripple effect continues simply because he, the manager, you know, the one I was coaching, was authentic to himself and said, this is the opportunity I want to give myself to be powerfully vulnerable and then give them without then being defined whether it's supposed to be that way, not supposed to be that way. Will they perceive this way? No, you can't choose what other people take. You can only choose what to give. It's another thing we talk about a lot.

Oh, wow.

So I can perceive the negativity as something powerful, and that is the one I want to— or the vulnerability is something powerful, and that's what I want to give out. Whatever you do with it is yours, but then it creates always something very powerful because you are not defined by that. And I think it's a beautiful example that they told me. I said, amazing. And he kept doing that, and that actually made him be a lot more respected as a manager, which is— Totally different to his colleagues.

You know why I like this show?

Tell me.

Because we talk about the things we're gonna talk about and then we go, we record and we talk about something completely different. Maybe that's the show. And now for something completely different, like they used to have. You know this movie? You know what And now for something completely different, Monty Python. So it would be a good thing for us to have.

Well, now for something completely different, to talk about exactly what you just talked about. Because I think there's something that what we practice between us, I mean, except for being awesome and amazing, but we practice the fact that we're building something that is neither mine nor yours, but it's together. I think that we listen to each other, we build on top of each other. There is empathy, which People mistake this with sympathy. You know, the empathy is just the ability for me— there's a lot of, lots of ways to describe it. One of the key ways is for you to listen to someone and understand them and accept what they say for everything and not judge them through the prism of what you are supposed to say, what you're supposed to think, or the message you want to get across. And once you do that, there's some calmness in the, in the way that, yes, I can build on top of that. We can brainstorm together. We can spiral up instead of just looping in a circle. And I think if people learn to do that and then actually practice this in so many places in our lives with people that we're friends with and colleagues and people that we manage and so on, I think there's, there's just give people a place and just build on top of that. It doesn't take from you and it doesn't, you know, make you irrelevant. Moreover, it makes you a lot more powerful.

And I think also sometimes the fact that we're trying to find our way into this and we're not calling this a weekly podcast and there's no obligation And we're figuring it out. This is also part of the fun. It takes some of the stressors, right? Like, what are we gonna do? What am I— I don't know, we'll figure it out. People wanna watch, great. Maybe we'll take some shorts, great. And maybe, just maybe, we'll start finding something. And we start sculpturing what it could look like, and what it might be, and how long every episode, and do we wanna do it, and what are the subjects, and how do we collect the subjects? But basically, I think we're now practicing just start doing and then we'll figure it out. Where I think a lot of people say it online, especially on social media, but don't necessarily practice. And for me, the last 3 weeks have been about I'm pushing, I'm doing, I'm trying, and I'm trying to figure out what I like and don't like. And I'll leave you with this for the next episode. We'll talk about my obsessed marketing plan for 2025.

Ooh, like that. Okay, we can imagine it together.

So if you enjoyed this episode, we're probably on YouTube, soon on Spotify if I can be bothered to upload there again. I don't know. Have fun, Yoav. You've been amazing as always. It was a great pleasure, man.

Likewise, Nir. Thank you. And drop questions, drop topics. We'll discuss them.

We'll see you on the next episode.