Imagination and storytelling are 2 super powers you must have - Yoad Mick and Nir Zavaro chat - Ep01

Okay, so this might be an epic fail or a huge success. I truly have no idea. My name is Nir Zavaro. I'm your host for this, what might become a show about not nothing, but close. I have my co-host, Yoav, which is gonna introduce himself in a second. But over the last year or so, we've been having a lot of conversations, a lot of talks about how workshops could look like, what we do, and other stuff. He's in the imagination concept, teaching you how to tap into your imagination. And, uh, I, Yoav, the host, uh, mainly talk about storytelling and how to unlock, unlock the potential of storytelling. So we thought it might be interesting to bring all these conversations and record them and see what happens. Yoav, I'm happy you're here, man. You wanna introduce yourself one second?

Yeah, I think you introduced very nicely, but I'm really, I think this is gonna be, uh, an epic success. I imagine that it will be. This is the experience I wanna create in people.

How we're gonna do this?

No idea, but we're going to keep doing this because that's the journey we're on. And I think that really connects to the things that puts us together and also the things that I train, that over the years I've experienced in my career, that imagination has also been this safe zone that you can use to create a future that's not defined by existing limitations and to imagine it, to really believe in it, and then actually create that. And the more you practice that experience and having that imagination, bypass the limitations that are stopping you from doing that, you actually strengthen the muscle of that ability to imagine and create this change. And slowly and surely, the more you practice, there are so many byproducts from confidence to resilience to empathy to leadership and so on. You start to understand your capabilities and how you grow yourself and what opportunity you give yourself and others and so on. And I think that then connects to what you, you do is just So I would say, once you can see yourself that way, now how do you express that? How do you tell that? How do you create others, bring others to imagine with you and share what you have inside and create ownership with them? So I think that's a lot of what we're going to talk about is like how to look at all these case studies, look at everything that's happening in these discussions, but then how do you take whatever you have, the ability to tell a story, the ability to imagine, put those together and really bring yourself out there? And I think that's what we're trying to do, each in his own way.

So let's jump into the first episode.

You like it? Yalla!

Have you ever used that site before?

No, first time.

Israeli company.

Damn. See, Israelis, they're good.

Two young brothers had an idea that Zoom is shit for recording interviews. That's not a good platform for that. They started this idea. They both come from Beersheba. One of them studies there. The other one went to Amsterdam. Boom. And Gigi Levy, I think.

Yeah, Zoom is not the best. That's good.

How weird is that, that Zoom, someone called the market, literally you say let's Zoom, they own the word and everything. Yet in 4 years, they haven't produced a single amazing thing. They only went backwards.

I think that's the stories of a lot of companies that get very comfortable and centered on the existing product. If it's not broke, don't fix it kind of attitude. This is the limit. This is what's working. And I think you see this also with— well, going all the way back to Kodak or Even if you look at Skype, you know, if we're talking about Zoom, look at Skype. You know, let's say we're gonna Skype this, we're gonna do this. And I mean, Skype should have been like massive, right?

Like Nokia or BlackBerry?

Yeah, it's interesting with BlackBerry, but Nokia has managed to reimagine itself. Like today, people don't quite know what Nokia does. They do so many different things, so many like telecom and things. I mean, they reimagined themselves actually a number of times throughout the years, always building something very— the Nokia fall was after they changed direction. Massive, you know, a third of the GDP of Finland was dependent on this, and then they crashed. But now they rose again, and actually, they're actually really big. Just people don't— they assume that because they don't do what they do, they're not good. But they're actually a really nice example of how do you just pick up and move on to something.

But I think, I think what's interesting here is, um, if you look at Nokia, if you look at Lego almost about to go bankrupt, and we have some other examples of people who are able to reimagine how they can come back from that. Whereas Zoom is interesting because they can't imagine or market differently because success is what's limiting. Your downfall is your own success.

No, the question is right now, it comes back to the question of being product-oriented versus sort of impact-oriented. I think, are you on a journey or are you a sort of outcome to get to a certain point of, if it's revenue, if it's a product level, if it's a, you know, that's the service you designed to have and that's it. And I think the companies that are really As we're continuously reimagining what they do and how they do, it's because they're in the process of a journey towards an impact, towards an experience they want to create. And that's something that's attainable, but it's never achieved fully. It's like you didn't get there. It's not a finite point that you go, okay, that's it, I'm done. It's continuously to create an experience. What does it mean for the new generation of people, for the new users, for the existing users? How does it work with the times? How does it work with what's going on in the world and such, and the economy and whatnot? But it's continuously to reimagine according to the experience that you want to create. And if you're on that experience, great, keep it up. And if you see that you're not delivering that, then you can— then it drives, you know, whatever you— your decision that you make, the features that you produce, the KPIs that you set, and so on. And I think that also allows you to say, okay, what is needed now to expand that opportunity? To give the people that experience. How do I do that more that I can allow myself to do that?

I think it's interesting. It's like, you know, when companies say, we're the biggest, we're the best, we're the leading in the market. Now, unless you can actually quantify it, it's not relevant whether you think— now, everybody, where we are, I love seeing digital creators say, I own a marketing agency, the leading marketing agency, and in that specific country. And he said, okay, I doubt that because I know who are the leading. They have 400 or 1,000 or 2,000 employees and it's you and another VA. So I'm not sure you're the leading or the biggest at the moment. But going back to what you said, it's never a finite game. There is no, I'll get to be the biggest and I win. And I think Success makes people, which means it makes companies forget that you're now leading on top. But it's not relevant tomorrow. You know, I don't know if I told you this last week. We, I was part of this conversation. They invited Zach Brown. He's the CEO of McLaren Formula One team. Well, McLaren, the whole conglomerate. It was insane. I don't know if you know this, but yesterday they won. So when I'm recording, it's Monday. Yes, last Sunday, yesterday, day. They beat Ferrari. They won the world championship after years. I think 1998 maybe was the last time they won the world championship as a constructor. He told us, because he made the big turnaround of the team, and what was very, very interesting, Formula 1 is an industry where 2% is the margin error between the first and the last. Now think about every business you and I have ever went to speak with, work with, consult, whatever you want to say. They're like, we're trying, we're doing a bit better. 2% with food and beverage industry. If you had an amazing year, you could do 10% as the average on a good year. I'm not talking about the excellence, the top, top, top companies.

Hmm.

But the difference is huge in that industry between fail and success. In Formula 1, 2% will determine if you stand first on the grid or the last.

It's like the Seinfeld joke of the 100-meter run, you know, he says like, best guy in the world, never heard of him.

That's crazy.

It's crazy.

What was interesting, by the way, is the way they went in to take the team and reimagine what it could look like in a lot of factors. One of them is the rebrand, they became suddenly like a very loved brand again. Okay. But they're always smiling and talking and the team and the people who come to work with all have that vibe, that identity, which goes a lot into the, what the brand is. They reimagine what they would become. They built a plan and they're just fucking executing, which has been, you know, I followed this sport since '93.

That's a really good question because if you take this and you said 2% error, so that means that the product itself, that the car that you build, the tires that you put, all these different things, the differences are so incremental. It's a tiny difference between these things. And I think it then puts a lot of, like you said, a lot of emphasis on everything around it. It's like, how do you— when the differences are so small and everybody's so at the top, how do you now take people to the next level? What's the missing factor to bring them together. You know, it's like a football team has the crowd cheering them on, and there's something about this that gives them more energy. And I think like the team and everybody having this ownership together, it's really interesting what he talked about. How did he bring it together to create that unfair advantage where everybody's so close together?

So here's where it becomes interesting. They have a huge regulation book. So what's allowed? What's not allowed in tick? What are how you're not allowed to build the wings in this way because it gives you too much speed. Aerodynamics has to be a certain way. Weight has to be and so on. If it's not in the book, that's up for grabs. What we know in business today is 99% of the people that you and I will meet, the first thing they say. It doesn't work like that. Whereas they say, no, no, no, it's not allowed. If it's not allowed, you can't. Everything else you need to figure out. Throughout the season, over 80% of the car will go through certain changes. So that means that the car you started the season with, 23 races after, is at least 80% different. Throughout the season, they almost reconstruct the whole car. Every time it's small upgrades and updates, which means that not both drivers will get it. But what's interesting is if you build the best car on the opening race of the season, midway through the season, it's last. Now you can imagine whatever you want, and if it's not allowed, you can't. Everything else is up for grabs. What is interesting is you need to make small changes and understand that if you screwed up, that's 1 out of 23 races gone. So you have to think long term and short term.

But that's also interesting. If I go back to the team itself, I mean, the changes are good, but then you got yourself the team. And in order to challenge that status quo, to change and look at this as not limitations but challenges to overcome, I think it's a lot we talk about. How do you look at things as not it is what it is, those are the rules, that's what you can do, but also say, okay, those are the rules, I understand. Now I see them as a challenge. to take this up to the next level, to be able to bypass them and create what I actually want, not to say, okay, that's it, and here I stop because it's not possible. And I think that is what differentiates, especially at that level, and if it's athletes and companies that succeed and innovators. And even looking back at— we just, you know, we forget about this— we just passed COVID, which reimagined everything that we can do. And those who said, okay, I can't get out of the house, that's it, I can't do what I do— and that there I saw Between the ones who thrived and said, okay, this is a challenge to overcome. Sucks, horrible, bad. Say what it is, but that's the mud that we have. And now how do we form the mud cake from it? How do we imagine something that's based on this and understanding, but can actually be a growth opportunity? Can be something new. How do we reimagine this? So it brings back to this saying, okay, in this when the changes are so incremental and small, how do I bring the people who can then look at this as a challenge to overcome? And that's I think the. That's the biggest, I think, win you can do at those levels is to harness the people to have their ownership.

I think, you know the saying, um, thinking outside of the box, right? For, for years in the marketing field, I would meet clients and they'd say, we need you to think outside of the box. That's why we hired you. I'd be like, that's great. Can you explain the box? And they can't. The box, by the way, in most concepts, the way I look at it is if I don't understand the brand, your goals, who are we talking to, and so on, if you can't explain what you actually do in one sentence and how you do it, everything I explain in the book, I can't help you. Then you're asking me to think outside of the box without you defining the box. And I think the rule book Oddly enough, is the way that they define the box. So this is the box and then think outside of the box. Now bring the best people and tell them, hey, we need you to be creative all the time. You need to outperform every single weekend. It needs to be the best of the best and everyone out there will know. If you did it or not, your responsibility, and we will back you. Wanna play?

It's fair grace. I think that's an interesting way to say, what is the box? It's a good question. But I think most people will not, as you say, understand what the box is, or they will turn to the brand book, or they will turn to the industry status quo. And that's one way of looking at the box. I found that there's another way of looking at the box, sort of reimagining what the box is, is actually asking what limits the box. And if you look at whatever is comfortable for people, that's sort of the box in a way. Anything that goes beyond the comfort zone or the uncomfort zone is actually beginning to be outside the box. Why? Because you don't want that, but you want the change that exists when you're out of your comfort zone, but you're not willing to step. So when I look at the— if you look at the comfort zone as a circle and whatever out of it is the change that you want that exists in the uncomfort zone, then I'm always saying on the— whatever is on the outskirts of the circle is actually all those things that are blocking you, if it's fear of failure, if it's all these, what will they say? What happens if they match me? All these fears and blocks and so on. These things are what actually define the limitations of the box. So when you have ideas, but they push people out of that and they start feeling it, this is why people look at this as a logical thing. Outside the box means I'm uncomfortable being there. So you go be there and you tell me how it is. But even if you notice, and I'm sure you'll share stories on this, even when you bring back that out-of-the-box, so to speak, solution because it's from your box, you get a lot of resistance. And a lot of times all this resistance comes from their own fear of going, oh, understanding that then now they're going to have to be outside of the box too. Now they have to take this and actually do something with it. And I think that is actually— when you reimagine this, it helps them define what they need, the work they need to do to really understand what it means to not only have you bring outside the box, for them to own it and then actually be able to do that as well. So even if the guy in McLaren would have brought all those Wonderful ideas and his passion to change, but he would not have been able to convince the team to sort of collectively imagine with him the opportunity, that future that's not defined by the rulebook or the existing status. If he had not been able to harness that power, he would have been just a one-man Don Quixote trying to get everybody to do something, and everybody would have pulled him back to the limitations of the box that they know that exists, or for them that exists.

I agree. I think so much is coming to mind. One, I think he took a team that hasn't won in years since 1998, brought in a new spirit. And I think that's what people need to understand, that the leader takes ownership. We know this also from politics and other stuff, but if you don't own it on the top level, it doesn't trickle down. And we need to enable, and I think that also took me as a, as a manager and owner in a company, years and we know how that works. Secondly, I think what's interesting is that I'm now trying to push my limits on a personal level to live outside of my comfort zone. And I'm someone who always did that, but now on a whole new different level, it's not easy. So I think there's 3 levels where people are like, no, no, no, I'm good sitting on my couch. Don't move anything. I'm happy. No uncomfortable. This is the box. I think second level is where people say, you know what, let's just make the box a bit bigger. And I think magic happens where you say, hey, what's outside of that box? And they need to be able to imagine because when they look up, there's nothing, only what they imagined in their brain. And if they, they miss that part, and let me take that back to another Formula 1 story. If we're gonna do a, a whole session today on Formula 1, in, uh, 1994, '95, Michael Schumacher wins 2 world championships and he does that in a car for Renault Benetton. And the car has 100 Horsepower less, he wins the championships and he signs with Ferrari, the most famous brand in Formula 1, the biggest prestige. The only problem is the last time they won was 1979. By the way, Jody Scheckter was the only South African and Jewish guy that won a world championship. '96, the media in Germany is, they're out for blood. They're like, how did you do this? You sold yourself for a team that'll never win anything. They're so bad. They always do the same thing. They're shit. And he goes, unlike other drivers at the time, he rents a scooter, a house, goes to the racetrack every day, sits with the engineers, tries and figures out to figure out what they can do differently. In the meantime, everybody's like, he's done. He goes in, he tries to make some changes. Nothing changes. He learns Italian. And one day he sits in the toilet and he hears these 2 guys and they come in and they say, if it doesn't work, but you know, Ferrari is always Ferrari. And he comes out and they say, why do you say that? They say, nothing changes. He calls an all-hands meeting, by the way, something that will become mandatory in every Formula 1 team after a race. But he's the first one. And he calls everyone. He says, if you don't show up, you can't work in this company. You can't work in the Formula 1 division. 1,000 people. And he goes and he says, hey, my name is Michael Schumacher. I won 2 world championships. I'm a world champion. It's done. I'm a world champion. You guys are not. Now I understand that things don't change. I understand there's problems. I understand the car isn't good. I'm not asking you to bring me a winning car. This is my ask. Bring me a car that gets me to the finish line and I will make you world champions. They went on to win 5 world championships. By the way, they missed out on the '97, '98, and '99. Then they went on to win 5 world championships. By the way, I heard this story. from the guy, the Irish guy that brought Michael Schumacher to Ferrari and then was involved in what would become Red Bull and stuff. So he helped them change something, you know, and he told them, you will become— so then the question is, what's in it for me when you ask me to reimagine? And he was able to inspire them by being next to them, by empowering them.

Yes.

to reimagine what it would look like because you can feel it, you know.

But that's something super important that actually connects us back to leadership, which I think I look at it— I train imagination, and but I use that imagination as a way to bypass limitations. Why? Because it's— because when you imagine an experience of something in the future that you don't know how it's going to play out, you can actually Work on how does that feel and hold on to that as collateral to go over the limitations that block you. But every time it starts with the individual, it starts with your individual imagination that helps you bypass your own limitations, believe in that. And the byproducts of that is that confidence and the ability to be empathetic and to let others know. Why I say this? Because it actually brings out that inner leader in you. You start, as they say, leading by example, also in your own self and then to everybody. And it also can start from the bottom, but it's so critical that as a leader, Of an organization, a company, of a figure that people look up to, when you do this, it really trickles down. It trickles also ripple effect that you have, but also trickles down. So doing it from the top really matters. And as Michael Schumacher standing there saying, I'm giving you sort of permission to imagine, to challenge, to push, to— I just need you to get me to the end. It created this ability to say he was actually presenting something very vulnerable, which in a powerful way, which allowed others to be vulnerable. He allowed others to feel psychological safety. To then develop that trust. And as you noticed, as you said, that it took him a few years to do this because it starts and it trickles and then people start believing it, lowering their own limitations, getting out of their comfort zone in a comfortable way, challenging, and then they do this. But there's ownership that he created simply by doing this and then sort of saying, I just need you to get me to the end. Yes, but I need you to do this with me. That was the key thing, leading by example, making everybody do it together with them. And then it takes again, a while for people to trust and really begin to feel that, yes, that's really the case. And then they're with you. Then that collective imagination starts and everybody starts imagining together and everybody starts challenging together. Everybody knows that whatever they do, it is because they're part owners of this journey of becoming world champions. So I think that's also added them to the game and not just said, I'm there, get me there, and I'll be the world champion. It's we, you're going to do this. That's a big thing.

So when he said, I will make you, okay, by the way, I'm just checking when we're talking in 1996, the first season. Okay. That was like the comeback for Ferrari. I'm just checking to make sure because you said something interesting and you said it will take them a few years, but they went from an average midfield Team with the biggest budget, okay, to the first win in in June. That means like on the fourth or fifth race with him at the helm. Now before that, racing drivers would come. They were like the product, right? They raced and left to Monaco to sit on the beach, to sit on their yachts. He came back and he talked to them and he worked with them and he helped them. And when he would go on, for example, talking to the media and say, hey, it takes time, we're making progress. Okay. So, and then he starts winning. The change, the mindset change can happen very fast and the most complicated, let's say, management style out there. And the reason why I'm saying this, because this is running a team of over 1,000 people. So that means there's about 100 people fly with you to the race and you have 900 people in the factory working on other stuff. You have the risk assessment management team in a different place. I think what is also sometimes limiting us is the understanding or the assumption that things can also move fast because it's— we imagine, we create the story in our head, and we execute. Sometimes we even do that. You know, when I wanted to lose weight and I said, no, I need to do a lot of things to lose weight, it won't work, right?

Hmm.

And then I said, no, no, it will work. But I didn't do the right things. So I kept getting the same reaction. The outcome is the same outcome. I'm telling myself a bad story.

That's, by the way, it's interesting because this morning I had a talk with someone who was— we were talking, the CEO, that she's going to pitch now in front of these investors. And she says that, yeah, she's nervous about it and she hopes to get it good. But she says that through repetition, I'll be ready because I'll repeat it all the times. And why it connects to what you said is because I asked her a simple question. I said, okay, repetition of what? What are you repeating? Are you repeating going up there to pitch? You talk about losing that and talking about pitching and already practicing overcoming or facing the anxiety and the stress and everything. So you're basically building up the self-chosen truth and repeating it over and over again, which makes it into a hard fact that you go up there and you're supposed to be nervous and you're supposed to stress. And what you're doing now is practicing to overcome the Stress. Now what's happening is that you're repeating that story. I will be stressed, I will be nervous, I will be this. And what I'm doing here is repeating so I can counter that instead of changing what you repeat. Because I said, when you go up there and you repeat the fact that I'm here to give an opportunity for people to hear me, I'm giving an opportunity for myself to be here. I cannot choose whatever people, how they perceive it, but I can give an opportunity for me and my team to be presented in this way. And that's what I do. Then yes, Yes, you repeat and yes, you will still go, but the experience that you actually repeat over and over again is experience is a different one. The one that builds you up, the one that offers an opportunity. Just like Michael Schumacher said, I'm offering you an opportunity to come with me. I'm not saying let's do that for them. We're doing it together as we'll work through this. We'll achieve that point. When do you do this? I don't know, but we'll do this because we're giving ourselves an opportunity to make ourselves as best as we can and be those champions. And I think that's the thing about reputation.

What do you think she stressed?

Well, I think that's the thing is that people have— first of all, we're sort of bred that way. We're always told that there's a right and a wrong and a good way and a bad way and the way you do this and the way you don't do this. So what happens is that you have these ways of doing things and then you imagine yourself according to them, which actually takes out from what is your authentic way of doing things, which is actually a very big ask to understand what is my way of doing things. So, and the second thing is that I think people are continuously imagining what people are imagining about them. So I am continuously working through other people to see myself, how I see myself. Now, the more people you switch, the more views you get. So what is your view? What is your place to put? And then, and then that actually also brings you to the point, which I think Michael Schumacher, going back to him, changed. Is that you define yourself by the outcome. But notice that if you define yourself by the outcome, and everybody has different outcomes or different perception of what that outcome is— better, worse, right, wrong, and so on, higher level, lower level— that you continuously move sideways just to make everybody happy and not really— and then you end up not being your authentic self. And it shows, by the way. So while you're continuously imagining what others want, you become increasingly unconnected to what you actually bring. And But maybe going back, what Michael Schumacher did is just really disconnect from the outcome of the world. Says, you get me to the end, I'll make you champion. How we do this, we'll do this together. When, I don't know. How, we'll see. But we do this together. We're giving ourselves an opportunity to be the best. We're giving— we're not going— of course, we're competing against other brands and other cars, but we're first of all competing against ourselves and giving ourselves the opportunity. And then we put it to the test and see how— How we did and what we need to iterate to continue to do this. But the mission was clear, was not the one race, not the 2 race, not the 3 race. It is to continue this on a journey. And along the way, the outcomes become milestones, which sounds like semantics, but it's not semantics because milestones are on the way to this infinite journey that you take. And these outcomes is a finite thing that yes or no. And at that point on, it defines the way you did things, not necessarily for improving. Sometimes it'll actually backfire and you'll stop doing things and you'll have less faith in yourself and you'll start having internal politics or so on. I agree.

Most entrepreneurs get the idea, and you know this, I work with a lot of startups, a lot of founders from different levels, but sometimes tell people, you know what, show me your stuff, give me the pitch, show me a video of the pitch you did, and I'll do it better than you. I'm not the CEO. I'll pitch it better than you. And I can almost absolutely guarantee that I'll do it better than them. Almost. I even tell them, if not, I'll give you your money back. If I do, you pay me twice. The reason is because most people— why do we feel anxiety? Because we don't know what the outcome will be. Now look at salespeople. I just wrote a blog post for Chief Revenue Officers Facebook group and I told them, listen, you're forgetting the most important thing. When your sales team comes back and you ask the sales rep or you ask your CEO, how did it go? And they say, yeah, I think it went well. Why? You're supposed to tell me it went exactly as planned. Yet if I'm not prepared, I am improvising. If I'm improvising, I don't know if I got the right outcome. So basically what we're telling people, let's put you in a stressful situation, being on stage, talking to people, talking to investors, talking to investors that I'm going to ask them for millions of dollars. And if they say no, never meet them again. Now let's build up those stress levels to the top that we can, right? Uncomfortable, once in a lifetime, this and this and this. And then also tell them that they're not ready to do it. Most people would shit themselves. Most people would panic. Yet most people I've met won't do what it takes. You know why people don't write their talks? Because then it's a commitment. Then we can measure if what they said is good or not. I'm going to be a world champion. It's a statement. I've already been a world champion, but it doesn't mean I'm not going to stop trying to improve. So what most people do, especially in the sales and raising capital things, they're not ready enough to know if what they aimed for has been achieved. So improvising sounds like the solution instead of imagining or visualizing the outcome and writing the right pitch to take me there. And what do they say? Yeah, I think it went well. We'll probably have another call, we'll have another meeting, but I wanna know exactly how it's gonna play out. And that's where you're able to solve. And that goes back to, I need to understand the box. If I can't understand the box, I can't sell shit.

Yeah.

I'm hoping or I'm guessing. And I think that's where most people lose.

I think that the, this is absolutely true. And I'll add to that that there is actually a prerequisite. The prerequisite means that the base that what you said is built on and the willing to commit and to write it down and do all these things, it's not that people don't want to, but as you said, they're afraid. There's blocks, there's fear of failure, there's fear of commitment and so on. But the fear of commitment comes from what if I don't do this? What if I get it wrong? What if it's— you know, it's to give me this margin for error that I could say, well, you know, we tried and everything. But I think another aspect of that is that that it doesn't tap— they're not emotionally connected to it, or they're emotionally connected to it in a bad way. As you said, stress levels go up. Now it's too much, so I would rather not do anything because the failure is imminent. Of course, you know, I can feel— The question is, how do you connect emotionally to this from a good place? Which means your passion, that authenticity, the elusive authenticity that we try to say, what is my thing? And I think once you have that and understand how you as you say, first of all, I imagine the future that's not defined by existing limitations, but I also understand what experience I want to create in that future, how I want to feel, how I want to give myself the opportunity to be. When you hold on to that, it makes it easier to go into the second phase, which is what you were talking about, which is writing it down, which is committing, which is understanding that I'm on a journey, I will do this, and then I will use the pitch to improve myself. But I will, I will continue to do this not because of others, but because of myself, to give me an opportunity to give others an opportunity opportunity to see what I'm giving out and then not defining myself by the outcome, but doing this over and over again, but continuously pouring my passion, authenticity. And I think when you don't do that as a prerequisite, but you just jump to practicing on stage, that goes back to what you said, to what we talked about, the repeating. But you're repeating the scenario of overcoming the stress and you know it's going to be stress and doing this and then only working back to see if I was good in that. Instead of working from the good place of, did I give myself the opportunity? Yes. Did I give others an opportunity? Can I do this? Can I improve?

Yes.

Then go back and do it again. Do it again. So then the outcome is really a place for me to go back and then improve. So looking at it not from a judgment perspective, but from creative growth. Can I grow from this? And I think that is— so it's not to say I don't care about the outcome, but it's like, how do you use that to empower us? To give that opportunity again and again and again, and that way improve and then not be defined by that outcome. Because if we fail a lot of times, we can decide, okay, we're not doing it again because we failed. And that means you're defined by the outcome. Or every time I have to handle the stress, you're not going to get rid of the stress. Every time you're going to have another form of stress because that's what you're repeating. So it doesn't really come from your— and you're actually— the way to get over the stress is tapping into that passion, saying, that's the reason I'm going to do it. no matter what. And you know what's interesting? That I just heard this, uh, saw this clip about Ronaldo, which everybody knows Ronaldo. And even he, when he goes to the biggest games, they zoomed in on his lips on what he mumbles to himself in Portuguese. And he says something like, it's just like in the game, it's just like in practice, just like you did this, you know how to do this, you know how to get the ball inside. This is just a regular kick. You know, you've done this 100 times. So he keeps just reminding himself of his worth And his ability to do something. So he works on overcoming the stress from a good place. Like, you know how to do this. You know the experience of kicking the ball and putting it in the goal. You know the muscle memory, you know all that. Now it's just carrying it out, just reminding himself to be true and give himself an opportunity to be what he is capable of being and not be defined by the stress of the game or the stress of the last point. And if he doesn't, he's going to lose and the crowds and whatnot. So I think that's very interesting. Even a player at his level, speaking of Michael Schumacher, in his level. He's already a champion, he's done this, but he does this for, for himself, to give himself the opportunity to be what he wants to be. So that's— yeah, it was interesting.

You know, um, I started watching Formula 1 in 1993, and, um, people would tell me it's so boring, why are you watching it? And it's the, the pinnacle of sports, or definitely motorsport in terms of human ability, better than a soccer Or football player or any other athlete. Number one, you know, at 120, if your heart rate goes over 120, right, you're not thinking clearly and you can't think at all over 160. These people make decisions at over 200. Now what's interesting is they need to be able to adapt all the time, be outside of their comfort zone all the time. Make decision and know that if they made a mistake, they'll fix it again the next time. But that time is gone. And I think by repetition, practice, and hard work, that's the only way we can actually do it. When people say, well, it's so boring, most people on the planet won't do what it takes to do the craft of the repetition and the practice. And, and I, I shared that with you and I'll probably share it in, in the next recordings that it's exactly what I'm trying to do now with a lot of things in my life. And, and if everything goes well during December of 2024, I will probably publish over 400 posts on social media, which is more than I probably published in '23 and '24 combined. So when I tell that to people, it's crazy. You can't do that. And I'm like, no, no, I think I can. I think I can. And that mind shift I think is very important.

I think the limitations people put on us or define is basically what I also have 3 girls And I— it's funny because I talk to kids that way, and to them, and already trying to explain to them that when people tell you you can't, or this is the way, or this is the truth, you have to understand that they're speaking from their own fears, from their own blocks, from their own limitations. These are not absolute truths. These are them telling you what they can't do or their limit is. And when you try to perceive it that way, Like people tell you you can't do this, or you can't lose weight, you can't do this. That's the way it's done. They're trying to protect their own sort of piece of world and not rock it too much, because if you do anything that is outside of their comfort zone, they're threatened. You see, you come off as a threat because you do the things that they will not, and that creates frustration on their part. So in order to— so a lot of people do this even unintentionally. They will peg you down. So they will feel comfortable. They will not rise to your level. They will bring you down to theirs, not from a mean thing, but just to keep them and their place safe. And I think that that is, um, and even to share something like, I'm on a journey to, to train people with their imagination, how to use that as a super tool to bypass their limitations or blocks and everything that permits that, that limits them from becoming their full potential. And even for me, it's Like building this new thing and being an imagination coach, people go, you mean creativity? I say, no, I'm talking about imagination. My best friends and people very professional, it's like, you know, maybe you should put imagination on the back burner. It's just a method. Don't talk about that. Talk about creativity. Talk about this. That's what people understand. You know, understand that the client is not ready for this. And for me, exactly what I said before, pouring into it. I think you do the same, pouring your passion, authenticity, saying, this is what I believe in. Am I gonna have a hard time?

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Am I going to be told 1,000 times to change it because it's not good and people are not ready for it? Absolutely. So this is like the— I call this the price I have to pay willingly because I choose to go on that way. Like you choose to write those books and you know there's going to be pain to that and there's going to be a journey. And how the hell are you going to do it? How the hell we're going to do it? I don't know. But the more that does and we become this— we powerfully share the vulnerability of going after something that we don't know how to do, and that actually inspires people around us and slowly and surely the ones who we want, as it sounds very holistic and tree-loving, it will energetically, you will bring the people that want to feel that way or want to be inspired, you will bring them with you. Who? I don't know. What? I don't know. Is it specifically defining my ICP? I'm not sure exactly my ICP is the one that I want, but I also noticed that people that come start shaping the ideal customer persona that I would like because they're the ones who are So more open.

Here's a small challenge. And before we wrap up is I don't have an ICP. I have a marketing plan called Obsessed with no KPIs, me trying to do a bit better because I always said I would do and I never did because I've done marketing for 13 years for so many clients. I worked as a branding manager, as a marketing manager, as an owner of the agency and everything. And I did it for others. But when that ended, how long will I be able to say six seven years ago I did this for that company? Now I also start feeling that I haven't done this in a while, and I want to go back to writing, and I want to record some stuff again, and I want to. So I said, okay, what do I want to do? Fuck everyone else, and fuck the ICP. And if I can get 500 people that watch and read everything, the comments I've been getting—I just got a comment. from a woman from Australia who met me a year ago on a newsletter I, I published 3 weeks ago. She's like, I just got around to read this. It touched me. And she explained why. And I'm like, mind-blowing. But that's, that's the benefit. It's not the reason. And, and I think I'd love to have a conversation for the next show.

Yeah.

About imagining how to change life and stuff. And I think that'll be very, very interesting.

It is. I think one more thing, just you reminded me about, there's this famous story about, I think it was Dave Brailsford for the UK cycling team, and you reminded me about the 1% that they used to dominate, but then there were a few years that they crashed and didn't dominate, and when he came there, he did this, you know, he wanted to improve this, and he wanted to bring, he wanted to do this thing, and he wanted to help them reimagine, you know, their capabilities and everything, But then, on the de facto, how we did this is exactly that. It's just 1%, changing everything just 1%, 1%, testing and seeing what happens. But the ability to test that 1%, that seems like, oh, okay, what's the problem? Just testing. We're doing just 1% better. No, it's being able to hold on to that future that you want and knowing that the reason that you push out of the comfort zone and you do that 1% and you test it and do it over and over and over again, because the point is not the result of the 1%. The point is to do the 1%. To do, to do, to do whatever you do. And he tried so many things until he improved so many 1% that it managed to bring them to 2008 to dominate the world champions, the Olympics and all that. So it was amazing. But doing exactly that. So operationally, just understanding that you can challenge the 1%. You don't have to do a total makeover. Just challenge it and challenge it and challenge it and step out and see what it is and test it out. And the reason to do it again is because you understand that yes, you may fail, but you continue. You continue to do the one percent. Continue to work the books. Continue to lose weight. Continue to push what our belief in in what we train and so on and so on. And that's exactly the way he ended up bringing the UK cycling team to to be the best in the world. Great story.

Wait, so um, Yod, we just wrapped up what might be. The first episode. Any— I think—

Of many.

Of many. And I think what we need now, by the way, it's the only thing I was missing last week on my 3 top priorities. So I'm happy we're doing this so I can check that box. What I wanted to do is I think next time we'll talk a bit about the 1% and some other stuff. Listen, guys, this is just 2 dudes trying to figure out. And we're talking about a lot of things about the stuff we're doing in business, in our work culture. One side is from the storytelling aspect, the one from the imagination aspect. And we're here to have fun. And these are our conversations. So we invite you to comment, ask, do whatever you want, because we have no idea what the fuck we're doing. We're just here to have fun. So see you guys on the next show. Thanks.