Ep 15: Jess Johnson on the Controversy of Conservation

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild.

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast.

Welcome to the ReWild Year podcast. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Jess Johnson. Jess is the Government Affairs Director for the Wyoming Wildlife Federation, an 84-year-old statewide hunting and angling conservation organization based out of Lander, Wyoming. She is a founding member of the National Wildlife Federation Sportsmen— Sportswomen's Initiative, Artemis, a women's coalition that encourages women to take leadership roles in conservation and wildlife-related policy positions. Jess is also a board member for 2% for Conservation, an organization that we are proud to be a part of here at ReWild, and the Wyoming chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. She brings her dedication to educating hunters on advocacy and policy in the conservation arena and the dialogue around hunting into the industry as a pro team member of First Light, Argali, and Castro Glassing Systems. She grew up in a conservation-minded ranching family in Montana, North Carolina, and Wyoming and has a deep appreciation for healthy ecologies. And since moving back to Wyoming 11 years ago, has worked for the Voice of Hunting and Wildlife at the state legislature. Jess spends most of her free time exploring the West's vast expanse of public lands on foot and on horse. She is an avid archery hunter and has a particular love for the big Wyoming mule deer. Jess, welcome to the show.

I'm so happy to be here. And boy, I've never had my bio read back to me. I think I'm gonna have to cut it down a little bit.

I actually did shorten it down from what you said. So I tried to make it a little more readable.

Yeah.

How are you today?

Oh, I'm good. It's a beautiful Sort of late spring, early summer day in Wyoming. So all the best.

Super. Now, where in Wyoming are you actually located? You're in Lander?

Yeah. So Lander is like central Wyoming. If you were to look at the square that is our really unique shaped state, it's actually a square. We are about dead center. And if you look along the mountain ranges, we sit sort of center on the east side of the Wind River Mountains.

Got it. And so correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe the National Outdoor Leadership School is also located in Lander. Is that correct?

It is. Yeah. National Outdoor Leadership School, also known as NOLS, is— its headquarters are here. And it's part of what makes this town, you know, it's only about 8,000 people here, but it's so outdoor-focused. It's a lot of passionate outdoorsy young people live here. And it's just, it's, you know, I keep saying it would take a lot to get me out of here now that I'm back.

Got it. Yeah, it sounds like a great place. I've never been there, but I'd love to come visit one day.

Well, you have an open invitation.

So, let's dig into your background story a little bit. How did you get into your conservation work and becoming a hunter and angler and all of those fun things that we're here to talk about today?

Oh boy, start with the doozy of the question. This is actually one of my favorites because I kind of come from an uncommon background in the sense of like I did, I grew up a ranch kid. And, I have always been outdoors because of that and just grown up outside. So, I came to the outdoors by being born into it. But, I also say that I came back to it because while I was in high school and college, I was pretty focused on being a dancer. So, a ballet dancer and an Irish step dancer and sort of took my love of everything and put it towards the performing arts.

Wow.

It wasn't until I kind of had a little accident that made it so dancing wasn't what I was going to be doing full-time that I started reconsidering things. I actually left college before attaining a degree because I was uninspired and unhappy and just didn't know what I wanted to do and ended up taking—

That's a common sentiment anymore, I think.

Yeah. We're just fed this narrative that you can only be successful with a degree. And certainly, you know, it makes some things easier. And I will never say that I didn't take the hard way. But the way that I took was I left and I went to find something I was passionate about. And I actually ended up in Lander taking an emergency medical technician, so a wilderness EMT course from NOLS, the Wilderness Medicine Institute, which is part of NOLS, the National Outdoor Leadership School. And my parents had moved back to Wyoming while I was in college in California. So I had spent time in Montana, Wyoming, and California, and my like high school through college was California era. And so my parents moved back to Wyoming in the Lander area, and I came back, took this course, and like kind of pulled my head out of the sand and went like, what the hell am I doing in California? This is not what I want to be doing. Like, I'm unhappy. Packed up everything, moved to Wyoming. And, just sort of was reintroduced to big western landscapes and it just ignited everything. It lit everything on fire. I worked as a waitress and a barista and taught EMT classes for a while, just sort of patched things together and started hunting because I met a man who was a bow hunter who taught me how to shoot a bow, which really turns out has a lot in common with ballet, which was a strange finding.

Really?

And yeah, it actually— this discipline and just sort of Zen flow mode, very, very similar disciplines with very different sort of— you get to the same place by a very different route.

Gotcha. Interesting.

And then, shot my first mule deer, which was the first animal I'd ever killed, was with a bow and it was a mule deer. And, it just sealed the deal of me going, This is a place that I love, an animal that I am in admiration and just sort of enamored by, and they're going away because there's more people and there's more problems. And so, I started volunteering for conservation orgs and I volunteered for everything I could get my hands on. And lo and behold, about Boy, it's almost 6 years ago now. I was in a coffee shop and I ran into who is now my colleague, Joy. And she said, hey, there is an opening at the Wyoming Wildlife Federation and I think you'd be great for it. You should put in for it. And I said, well, absolutely. And I put in my resume that had hundreds of hours of volunteer time.

Wow.

Got the job and now I am the director of government affairs for the Wyoming Wildlife Federation and I've got a lot of time under my belt at the state legislature and it's just been a wild ride.

It sounds like it. How do you balance that position? And because you're more on the activism and like the political side of things, right? Yeah.

So I'm, you know, I guess the way to say it is I'm a lobbyist. I spend, when the state legislature is in session, I am there every single day. Sunup to sundown. And I'm there speaking on behalf of wildlife, working on bills concerning wildlife or conservation or hunting. That means everything from like, we passed a resolution to direct the state to start looking at options to including hunter's education in high schools as an elective, all the way to work like conservation work, like funding for wildlife crossings or funding for habitat projects and things like that. So it's, you know, everything that touches the hunting and angling and conservation world that goes through the Wyoming State Legislature. Usually I have some, some hand in either passing or killing, hopefully if it's in a good, a good way.

Gotcha. So how do you balance that very active work schedule with being in the outdoors and spending as much time as possible? Because obviously what you're doing is needed, and especially when they're trying to pass bills to protect our public lands and animals and all of that. You know, doing what you love and getting outdoors as much as possible.

Well, I'm, I'm particularly blessed in that I live in a state whose legislative session happens in January and February on normal years. This year was a little different because of COVID but normal years is January and February. And, uh, it's— we have either a 4-week or an 8-week session, so they're, they're not long. Um, but if you're there every day, sometimes they're 14 to 16-hour days. And my overtime really racks up during those 2 months, of which are months I don't particularly love spending outside in Wyoming. January and February are routinely pretty gray and, you know, easy -15-degree days. So I'm fine being inside at that point. But it does come calling. And my executive director, Duane, I know always razzes me a little bit because come September and archery season, I take those 150-ish overtime hours and apply it and I'm gone.

Aha.

So, yeah.

That makes sense. Got to have some work-life balance, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I think when you work in something, had you told high school me or what I would be doing now, I have no idea how I would've reacted. But finding a job that you're passionate in and you know, don't tell my bosses, but I would be doing this job for free. This is what I love to do. This is how I— this is my reciprocity. You know, I think as a hunter, we go out and we hunt and we get food, but we're also taking lives and we are an impact on the landscape. So my reciprocity is to go and lobby on behalf of them and be the voice down at the state legislature when they don't have one. So it's always been, you know, it's work, but it's also how I would want to live in this world anyways is in, you know, giving back. So it's hopefully—

Very principled.

I got lucky. I got lucky in this job.

Yeah, that's amazing. So obviously conservation is really important to you. I can hear it in your voice how passionate you are about it. What is it about the wild and nature in general that calls to you so strongly?

I mean, how could it not?

I think I have some friends who the idea of camping is just appalling to them. They're like, there's no indoor plumbing, there's no running water, no electricity.

There's something—

they just don't understand my love for the outdoors.

Yeah, I think it's— I think once you've— I don't know, it's maybe something— it's like it's going back to the lizard brain in humanity in that we evolved as hunters and gatherers, and it's just been in the last 5 minutes of humanity's clock that we've gone indoors. And, our bodies are not equipped with the survival tactics to sit in front of a computer day in and day out, or our mental status isn't equipped to have to think and stress about all of these things. And, I think when you go outside and when you're hunting or when you're just outside and in it, it's one of the few times that your brain can truly unplug and just kind of be human, which is to be animal. And for me, being out there and hunting, part of that is partaking in the food chain. But the other part of it is a reminder that I'm not a land steward. I'm not somebody in charge of this. This is just something that's part of me. It's part of us. And we're just sort of a cog in the wheel. And it's a really refreshing anxiety soother when you realize that.

Yeah, that's a good point. So when we think of hunters and anglers, typically you think men, not women. So you're definitely in the minority, I think, when it, when it comes to this, but your enthusiasm for it is quite infectious. Talk to me a little bit about that as far as why you think there is kind of this disconnect, men versus women, when it comes to nature and the outdoors. And do you think that's something that's built into us? Do you think that's something that needs to change? Will it change? Just love to hear your thoughts there.

Well, you know, I mean, I think it's culturalized. I don't think, you know, women aren't born inherently to not like to hunt. We're just told that we're not supposed to. Or, you know, it's a culturalization thing because I think if you look at it just on the survival factor, if it was just, you know, think you and your best buddies or whatever, and you're a tribe and you're trying to hunt for food. I think when you're at that level of survival, people give very few craps about what gender you are. It's all hands on deck and who brings the food in. And so, I think maybe inherently that was the case, but we've been culturalized out of it. And whether it's who's been given the microphone or who we portray or how we sell stuff. You know, at some point women were told to go indoors, sit down and have kids. And I think that's great for some and it doesn't work for others. And it's, everybody's unique. And I don't know, it just, it's bizarre to me that, that it's been something that's been made to be so special to be a woman in the hunting industry. Yeah. I think the way we talk about hunting, especially recently, maybe say in the last like 50 years, hunting's become a very ego-driven, sort of populated by the white male voice. And it's been very ego-driven, very little about the hunt and very much about the outcome. And I think when you have the same people telling this story over and over again, it only reaches the same ears. And so, if we're not asking people to tell stories differently or looking for the nuances in the story or looking for different people to tell the stories, we're only going to get the same participants because it's only going to reach the same ears, as opposed to, like, you know, women tell stories differently than men. Like, we see things from different angles. Oftentimes, and this is, you know, I'm stereotyping because this is, and that's the inherent problem with this. Everybody's going to be unique and there's going to be unique variations. But on a whole, there's more emotion in most women's stories than most men's stories because we've told men that they can't have emotions.

Yeah.

So, there's a lot in that. But I think in the thing of like women and bringing more women into it, It's not bringing more women into it. It's taking the women that are here and are doing the work and handing them the microphone. The other women will come. And it's working to make this landscape tolerable and safe feeling to be in. Because, you know, we've all been in places— and say we've all, but as women, we've all been in places where we've had a man tell us that, you know, hold on, honey, I know better. Or things to that sense, which even if they do know better, is maybe not the way to approach the conversation.

Sure. Not what you say, how you say it, right?

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, we have a lot to do to make this industry welcoming for women and to keep women in it. That's the— it's only half the battle is bringing them in. The other half the battle is keeping them here. And if they have poor experiences or bad mentors or aren't greeted with people that speak their language, then it's really hard to stay in it. And I got lucky. I actually work in an office where the majority is women, and that's rare for a hunting conservation organization. And so I had a really welcoming place as far as like conservation industry style. And then I was very blessed with a very good mentor. And I can tell you that had I learned hunting from a different angle, I might not be here. But I had somebody who is an archery-only hunter who let me learn at my own space, gave me space to have emotions, gave me space to like have the whole range of frustrations and just was there for the ride and a guiding hand. And I was very lucky in that.

Yeah, that's great. One of the things you mentioned was, and I'm paraphrasing here, as far as this perception and attitudes and stereotypes, When it comes to the hunting industry. The thing that I have noticed though is it seems like there is a difference when it comes to Western hunting versus Eastern hunting. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because to me that's really interesting. It's a different culture, different style, different animals, but there do seem to be some drastic differences there. So I'd like to get your thoughts.

Yeah, boy, I can tell you, uh, as somebody that's seen it up close You know, I learned as a Western hunter, I'm predominantly the person that hikes 9 miles and comes home empty-handed and tired and hungry.

But that's definitely called hunting and not shooting, right?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I did, I was very blessed to be able to join First Light hunting in Wisconsin for whitetail. And I can tell you, That is somebody who is, you know, I'll go ahead and say I was a snobby mule deer hunter and was like, oh, people just go and sit in the woods and they shoot a deer and da da da da da da da. You know, and I think that's a very common sort of sentiment here in the West about whitetail hunting and stand sitting. And boy, did I have to eat my words. I, you know. Everything from watching Paul Peterson and Greg Farrell. Paul was with First Light and Greg is still with First Light. They grew up whitetail hunting and they knew these lands, they knew these woods, and they knew them to a T, like to the point of where they were like, oh, well, the wind is blowing northwest. And so, we're going to go sit in these stands because this is how the deer work this ridge. And, they had such an intimate knowledge of the landscape, of the And it was the same intimate knowledge that I felt like I have about mule deer in my country, in my landscapes, but applied in a different way. And so I started like having the like sort of wool pulled away from my eyes where I was like, oh wow, this is not just going out and sitting in the woods and happening upon a deer. It's like there's time that goes into finding the right spots and learning the movements. And then the sheer just mental fortitude it takes to sit for 12 hours in a tree stand in Wisconsin in November. Is something that like, I was just like, oh, these people are way tougher than I gave them credit for. I might be able to walk 9 miles, but damn, I cannot sit for 12 hours.

It's all a matter of perception, right? And just what you're used to.

Yeah. So, so I think, you know, it's, it's, it's the unknowns, you know, stepping into another pair of shoes quite literally is what it takes to see a lot of these other sort of differences of hunting styles. And I do notice You know, as it, it seems more approachable, probably at least in my mindset, um, the Eastern style of hunting for a brand new hunter, because it seems like it's easier to like not have the level of like, do you have like a $1,200 backpack? And do you have a 4-wheel drive pickup that can get up some of these like western crazy roads? Do you have, you know, the time off to take to go backpacking and do this kind of stuff? As opposed to like, do you have a weekend? Do you have some warm clothes? And do you have the ability to want to learn landscapes and animals? And maybe there's like an ease. The barriers of introduction are a little lower for the eastern style of hunting, which I really appreciate and I think is a very undersung sort of step in the door. I've been working on a project with a rock climber named Shelma Jun who was born in Korea, you know, raised in New York, is this phenomenal, just badass leader in the rock climbing world. And, we met at a conservation convention and started talking and we were doing this project where I teach her how to hunt and she teaches me how to climb and we're filming it and doing this.

Cool.

But, we took her on her first hunt in Nebraska because it was that, like, it was a whitetail hunt. We could have have a wall tent. We could be warm. It was— and I say warm, except it was -23 degrees. I'm sorry, Shelma.

Okay.

But, you know, we had— it was more of a comfort hunt as opposed to like taking someone out on like a backcountry elk hunt for their first hunt. And you're like, I'm sorry, we just hiked 15 miles. Here's like a cold mountain house and a pillow. Let's get up at 3:00 AM and do it again. So yeah, you know, I've seen those. I think the whitetail hunt was a perfect intro and it teaches you animals because boy, are they crafty. They are some of the most incredibly human-savvy animals I've ever been around. I've never seen a deer. I've never seen a mule deer walk by a place that humans have been and look at it. But those whitetail does would like walk and like look up at the tree stand and then keep going like, oh yeah, I see you up there. I'm going to walk over here. And it was just, it was amazing. Um, so I, yeah, a lot of, a lot of respect.

It also seems like it's a little bit more accessible to get into, say, whitetail hunting than elk or mule deer hunting out west, just because when you have to apply for the tags and everything, yeah, for the most part, and hope you get drawn. How on the East Coast or the Midwest even, there's so many whitetail that you can just go and buy the license and then you usually get a couple, couple tags automatically. Like, I grew up in Kentucky and, you know, still hunt there every year. And being a property owner, I mean, I mean, you know, it changes every year based on the numbers and all of that. But usually we can take 2 to 3 deer. And so, you know, it's, it's just very different in that sense. And we're very, very picky as far as the type of deer. And usually I want bighorns or a big doe or things like that.

Mature.

And so it just seems like it's a little— yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because we're trying to grow them big and just let them grow, obviously. But you can do that more. In the Midwest or on the East Coast than you can out west, I think. Oh yeah.

You know, and, and I'll be the first one to say, you know, I live in the state that is probably the most unfriendly state for non-resident hunters in the sense of like cost. You know, Shelma's coming elk hunting here this year and she paid somewhere near $800 for a cow elk tag. It's not a, it's not a small investment.

Sure.

And, but, you know, on the same hand, if you were to come to Wyoming and hunt whitetail, I think there may be Might be $120, might be $70. As a non-resident, it's like $30. We're at the point of where you're like, they're just like, please eat more whitetail. It'll be good for the mule deer. So yeah, I mean, it's—

That's less expensive than, than an out-of-stater buying, buying a tag in Kentucky for whitetail.

Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty, it's accessible here and I could be getting the costs wrong. So I'm sure we'll hear about it, but I just know that it's one of the most accessible tags. At least as a non-resident for Wyoming, as well as probably there's some antelope areas that are really cost efficient as well. But yeah, whitetail, eat more whitetail.

You know, probably my favorite of the whole game was I got to eat our axis deer, which I think are just delicious. So good.

I've been lucky enough to taste it. I've never hunted it, but I had a friend that got one and brought some meat and it was Very good.

Yeah, they've got some great hunts in Hawaii, which I've, I've hunted pig and sheep in Hawaii, but never, but not deer. But I know they're very abundant there. So I've only hunted in Texas.

Yeah, access in Hawaii is a bucket list for me for sure. You know, it's a reason to go to Hawaii and then also hunting. So yeah, for sure.

And they have so many different animals over there that none of them are native.

Oh, I know. It also, yeah, the conservation side of it feels good. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Great. So, Jess, you're so big in the conservation space as far as to helping push that narrative forward and to help protect those things. But where do you see the biggest need is today? There are so many different avenues that people can go, so many different organizations. But what do you see as boots on the ground? What do you see as the biggest need today?

Probably. Oh, that's a good question. You mean as in like the biggest need in conservation realm or hunting realm or just Across the board?

Uh, both. Take your pick. Yeah, either, either one.

As someone that works in a conservation organization, I can tell you that actually where we hurt the most and where we have the hardest time filling gaps is in the communications department. And I would say that that goes across the board, whether it's people in science that are doing science but have finished these amazing, uh, studies and research articles and everything that never see the light of day, or the average hunter never gets to read or understand. And so You know, anecdotal experiences outweigh the scientific data when we're going to make decisions. And that's just— it's not in the best interest for the wildlife in that sense. So I would say in the communications department of taking what we learn from science and boiling it down into understandable principles that we can then carry over. and educate lawmakers and decision makers with, educate the sort of public hunting public. So when we're in these public forums or we're making these decisions or we have involvement of the hunting community, it's an educated involvement, not just a like anecdotal involvement about experiences. And you need both because obviously, you know, we don't make decisions without emotions either. But the science side is really lacking and the communications on that is really lacking. And it's not the scientist's fault. It's It's just that, you know, I work for an organization and we probably have 90% of what we do is work and 10% is communications. And honestly, what it should be is probably 50-50 so that the communications about what's happening comes out to people. Because, you know, there's resource management plans, which are how the Bureau of Land Management and a lot of the public lands are managed, are happening all around us. And there's public involvement and very rarely do public ever show up, but WWF works on that. And we work on all of these things and all of this legislation and we have all of these programs, but we don't have time or the funding to communicate around it all. And so only the most important things get communicated and it leaves the public sometimes surprised by decisions that come out because they haven't heard about it or they didn't know where to like, get invested. So fundamentally, like structurally, I would say communications. On the larger scale of like, where do I see a problem and what do I think we have to tackle? I think it's the general separation from nature that we keep. Even our language that we use, even in conservation, is separatist language of like calling ourselves stewards, like we're not actually part of the landscape, or calling our, you know, saying that we make these decisions over here, but it's fine to do this over here without taking into account that ecology is not siloed. Ecology is how this world works and how every piece fits into it. Yeah, it's a very holistic thing. And, you know, it's the same sentiment of like this thought that we can— I mean, the classic one is like the idea that if you stop eating meat, it's better for the world. Where in like some cases that could be true, but in the other case, it's ignoring the fact that big agriculture is as bad on wildlife as big landscape, like cattle operations. So it's this idea that flesh eats flesh. We have impact. Therefore, what we should be better at is acknowledging that we have impact and then doing something about it, whether it's giving back to help offset it.

Yeah.

Or it's changing small parts of our ways to make it less impactful or more holistic with how we approach things. So just sort of the general separatist nature of humanity, thinking that we're so high and mighty and really we make poor choices. Like we introduced the mongoose to Hawaii. Let's just— we're not God.

Yeah. So let's get into some controversial topics. So specifically reintroduction of wolves in different areas, you know, Colorado and now what they're trying to do in Idaho. As far as to kill those. And also the reintroduction of bison in like the Great Plains and some of those things. And I know these are controversial topics. I have thoughts on them, but I really want to hear yours.

So I think, yeah, jumping into the frying pan or out of the fire. I don't know, one of those.

Hell yeah, let's do it.

You just hit on 2 things I'm really passionate about, so I'll try and keep it at least minimally good. So you, I think what you set out with the wolf reintroduction, you sort of structured the 2 pendulum swings, at least that I see, is Idaho is in this sort of shoot them all mindset, as much as we can is according to the Endangered Species Act. And then Colorado is in this introduce them at all costs mindset. mindset, which, which I'm sure both are rolling their eyes at each other. And being in Wyoming, who sits between these 2 states, uh, Wyoming's freaking out about both. Um, uh, so I guess to lay the landscape out, at least as far as where I'm coming from, this is that I firmly believe that wolves should be on the landscape. I firmly believe that a healthy ecology means that there are predators. The other flip side of that is that I also believe that we have been so destructive and so encroaching of a species. And I say we as in humanity has been such an encroaching species that has taken up so much space and so much land that we are at the point we have started to manage prey. So elk and deer. That we also likely need to manage wolves. And that's because of our impact, not because it's the way that it should be. You know, there's places where animals are not socially acceptable and you can see it. And in, you know, the narrative of like the grizzly bear where folks are like, we need to reintroduce the grizzly bear back to all of its native range, except the firm fact that like most of its native range is houses now. And it makes no sense to put them there. And they only get in trouble and then they end up getting killed, which is like the ugly end of it. And so there are places that are socially acceptable to have animals and places that aren't. And then there are these places in between that are maybe the buffer zones where it may not be socially acceptable, but it is biologically available. And that's where these compromises need to be weighed and where we as humanity have done a poor job In walking that line. And so I would say, you know, Colorado has wolves right now and they've come down from Wyoming and, you know, there are collared wolves in northern Colorado and they are moving and they're moving into these places that they fit in ecologically and they are spreading. You know, we started in, what was it, the— boy, is it the '70s or '80s?

'70s.

Or '90s now. I'm gonna get my conservation history wrong, so forgive me. But when we introduced wolves, reintroduced them into Yellowstone, and it's taken, it's been my lifetime, you know, I'm 32 years old and they've moved across the state. They are doing very well, largely due to Wyoming's amazing elk population that keeps getting bigger. And so they're doing very well and they've moved because of it, because the landscape can support them, the ecology can support them. And so they will move into places where the ecology supports them, which is leading me to say that I was not a fan of making a ballot initiative to reintroduce wolves in Colorado. I thought that it unnecessarily pointed and painted a target on wolves that are already a controversial species. And it just took a yellow highlighter and highlighted it just for the people that are in these areas that are going to have to deal with it. And it is going to be controversial. And it gave them a grandstand and it divided the narrative rather than being like quietly letting these animals move into ecological spaces with— I mean, it was going to be controversial no matter what, but now— Now it is one of those things where people will— it's a vote breaker, you know, turning it into this politicized thing more than it already was, which I didn't think wolves could get more political, but they did.

Go figure.

Seems like it painted a giant red target. And I think the legislation that we're seeing in Montana and Idaho is in direct response to some of this narrative. Of this, and it's this perceived of this like rural versus urban mindset, which is again, total generalization and not, it's how it breaks down, but there's a lot more that goes into it than just those two. But you look at the rural communities that do deal with wolves in their backyards and do lose cattle and sheep to it. And, you know, there are ways around it. It does cost money. It does take time. And it's a relearning of how to run livestock in a predator landscape. And it is learning that we have lost because we've dealt so many generations without these predators anymore. So it's, we're gonna have this tension stage that's a lot of controversy and a lot of anger, and it's gonna feel unfair and feel like we're losing the West to a bunch of liberals. You know, that's what Wyoming keeps saying.

Right.

So, so it's this balance thing. And I think by, by making a ballot initiative to reintroduce wolves in Colorado, we just elevated the conversation another notch. And then Idaho responded with these wolf bills that were there like, fine, we'll shoot them all here. And, you know, Wyoming passed a bill a couple of years ago that like, even without the federal government's permission, just said, well, we're going to hold a grizzly bear where we can hold a grizzly bear hunt if we want to. And then we're going to ship all of the problem bears to California. That was a real piece of legislation. Wow. Okay. So, so there's that sentiment here of like, you know, that, that not understanding on both sides what it means to have predators on the landscape and to live in a landscape like that. And it comes out in bad communications and pendulum swings and these major— and I say pendulum swings of saying like one extreme opinion to the other. It's either shoot them all or they all need bodyguards so people don't shoot them. And there's very little gray area. And so, you know, we've got to start dialing back. We have to talk about the realistic problems of wolves on a landscape while also acknowledging that they're not going anywhere because our landscapes are healthier with them there. Yes, they're harder to live in, but the ecology is healthier. On the other side, we have to acknowledge that there are people trying to make a living and feed their families and feed their kids and you know, just have very real, like, up-in-their-face, can I pay my bills problems that predators are in conflict with. And so we have to recognize that on both sides to have a conversation at a table that's realistic and doesn't just leave out this poor animal who has this target painted on its back by being either something we've made into a Hollywood emotion or something we've made into the boogeyman. And, you know, wolves have been primed for that. We, I mean, we tell stories, Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf, Three Little Piggies and the Big Bad Wolf. Tell me a story when the wolf is actually the good character. And we just have to start retelling stories.

The Jungle Book?

Very minimally so. It's quiet.

Yeah.

But good. That's the first one I've heard with that one. That's really good. Well done, Disney. Was that also Disney?

Disney did it, but it was, uh, was that Rudyard Kipling? Maybe. Maybe.

That's a Googler. Yeah, but yeah, it just— yeah, so, so my take on wolves is that I'm fed up with the narrative around wolves, and I want people to come sit back at the table and sort of wear each other's shoes for a little bit.

Yeah, I want to dig into the bison side in just a second, but regarding the wolves, um, I'd like to get your take A little bit further on that regarding CWD, because chronic wasting disease is becoming such a thing, especially there's so many states, like it hasn't hit Kentucky yet where I primarily hunt, but Indiana, Tennessee, I believe Ohio, Wisconsin. So all of these surrounding states that are pretty close by. And so it's, it seems to be everywhere. And from what I've read, when there are wolves on the landscape, they take care of a lot of that. But I'd like to get your take on that too.

Well, you know, you have to— wolves are built to eat elk. Um, you know, that's elk and bison. Bison don't carry chronic wasting disease that we know of yet, knock on wood.

Neither do humans that we know of yet either, but—

Also knock on wood. Yeah. Uh, so, so like, you know, and, and elk obviously carry chronic wasting disease, but not to the extent, um, at least that we're seeing that, say, mule deer and whitetail do. And, and where we're seeing the real struggle. And I'm not saying that they don't, but where we're seeing our real struggle, at least in Wyoming, is in whitetail and mule deer. And wolves don't— they don't primarily eat whitetail and mule deer. They are elk eaters, and they likely do keep the chronic wasting disease down in elk because they tend— you know, an easy meal is an easy meal, whether that is a big bull in winter because they are weighted down by antlers and they are unhealthy because they've just rutted their faces off for the last 2 months and have no stored-up fat reserves, a big bull is easy pickings in deep snow in the winter. The cows are not. The other side of it being that chronic wasting disease would probably slow down whatever animal it has and they would opportunistic, they're not going to say no to a free meal. But, I would say that more so than chronic wasting disease, if we're going to talk about predators that are probably helping with, it's probably lions, mountain lions. They are eating a lot of mule deer. They'll eat whitetail and stuff like that. And so, yes, you know, of course, I'm sure wolves help to some extent, but I would be really cautious in saying that they, you know, the presence of wolves on a landscape is fine for like mitigating chronic wasting disease. I think there's a lot left to be studied in that. Obviously, I could be totally wrong. We might find out different findings. What I do believe is that to have a healthy ecology, you do need predators and they fit that niche.

Sure.

You know, you can't have elk without wolves and, and, or you shouldn't perhaps have elk without wolves because elk are equally as damaging and run other animals out. You know, elk outcompete mule deer for winter forage a lot too. So booming elk population, other, you know, balance, nature loves balance. It's this really bizarre thing. But yeah, you know, as far as like, you know, I would never just prescribe a wolf and it's going to fix problems here. What I would say is that a healthy ecology, whether that's The presence of lions and deer and elk and wolves and bears, they all fit together and they're all cogs in the wheel. And if you remove one, the rest of the wheel is unbalanced and the vehicle will not move.

So, and that's really interesting to me because we have this perception, at least from what I've seen in the US, where we don't want to hunt predators or it's seen as like wrong or bad, primarily because you don't think that you're going to eat them in the same way. Like typically you're not eating wolves or some people do, I guess, and coyotes and mountain lions and bears and people do, but it's, there's a different perception from it. And yet historically we have killed off so many of those that we've lost a lot of that balance that you're talking about. So it's just this weird, this weird relationship with apex predators and hunting them.

Well, it's probably because we see ourselves as an apex predator, and an apex predator will run another apex predator out of its range.

We've been really good at that over the years as humans.

We're aided a lot by technology. I will say, if we pitted our apex predator against a grizzly bear sans technology, we'll find out who the real apex predator is.

Yeah.

You know, I think I think one, I'll go on, I'm easy. I'm a very big proponent. Eat more bear and lion. It's delicious. Just cook it well. Cook it like you would cook pork. There is trichinosis in pork—

Yeah.

At almost the same extent that there is trichinosis in bears and lions. It is nothing to be afraid of. You just cook it well. It tastes delicious. Bears make great breakfast sausage. And the fat from a bear makes some of the best pastries on earth instead of butter. It's a really— I'm actually working on a bill here. Currently in Wyoming, we do not require that you take the wanton waste, so the edible portions off of bears and lions that you hunt. And I think that is egregious. I do. I am a proponent of if, you know, I think my problem with hunting predators is less to do with hunting predators and more about with how we do it. If you want to hunt predators, I think that is great. I hunt bear, I hunt lion, and I'd like someday to go on a wolf hunt to experience it. I have no idea if I could pull the trigger. I want to see what's behind it because I want to walk in someone else's shoes so I can be more accurate in talking about this. But I do believe that if you go hunting and you have, and it is hate that is making you pull the trigger, if you are pulling the trigger and killing something because you hate it, because you want to eradicate it from this land, landscape because you think it doesn't deserve to be there and doesn't have a life worth giving respect to, that is not hunting. That is killing. And it is very different.

Yeah.

Now, if you are out there and you're hunting something and you have respect for it and awe for it, and you're going to utilize whatever you can off of it, whether that's eating it or it's its hide or whatever it is, however you're comporting yourself, if it is with respect and with gentleness and with the idea that this creature deserves to be on this landscape as much as you do, I am fine with that. But when the hate enters the conversation, that's not hunting and that's not where we come from hunting. We as hunters, we respect the animals and we see ourselves in them, which is why it is sometimes hard to kill them. And if that isn't there, then something else is lost. And that's, you know, I think we could do a lot better as hunters to start talking about that side of it.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great point. I'd like to dig into the bison side now as far as the reintroduction there. And, you know, comparing those to cattle, and I've got a lot of thoughts around this, but just considering there used to be 30 to 60 million that roamed North America and we're down to, what is it, like 15,000 or something now, 20,000?

Yeah, boy. I think if you want the story of like the West's struggle with sort of landscape ecology and wholeness, whether that be humanity wholeness, I mean, the reason bison were extirpated was partially market hunting, but in large part to extirpate the Indigenous Americans that were here before us. And it was, if you kill off the food supply, they will leave or they will die. I think we have to acknowledge that history and acknowledge that that's still present today in this power struggle of who has say over what and who gets the right to make decisions on things. It's still going on. That aside, looking at agriculture and grass, you're land rich when you're in the West, not usually money rich, although now you kind of have to be money rich to be land rich. But the money's in the land. And, you know, the cows are not what cost money. It's the fact you're raising grass, not cattle. And bison eat grass a lot like cattle, sometimes to the extent that they're competitors for the beef industry. So look no further than realizing that humans don't do great with competition to understand why reintroducing bison is controversial. The other side of it, and the thing that I think is sort of a weak argument, is that bison carry brucellosis, which is a disease that causes early abortion in cattle. They're known to carry it. However, there has been no known sort of transmission from bison to cows. But it is this deep, everlasting fear because it is a major, major, major thing. If your cows test positive for brucellosis, it can literally run a rancher out of house and home. And, I don't mean that in the light sense. I mean, they quarantined you, you cannot sell your cattle, you cannot make payments, you will lose the ranch. It's major. It is like you will lose the place kind of thing that happens.

Wow.

And so, it's hugely scary. And, bison intermingling with cattle, the one side of this that we don't acknowledge is that's a very real fear. However, We tend to panic less with elk around cattle, even though we do. Wyoming feeds elk in feedgrounds to keep them out of ranchers' cattle, but it's not quite to the visceral issue that bison are. And elk have been known to give brucellosis to cattle. It has been documented.

Interesting.

So it's an interesting sort of juggle there. And I think what it comes down to is Some, and I'm probably gonna— I'm really gonna step in on this one. There is an element of, uh, bringing back the bison is handing the Indigenous American power, and white people hate doing that. Um, the other side of it is that it is in competition with grazing, uh, and, and agriculture and cattle ranchers, which is a very understandable competition. And then I think thirdly is the brucellosis issue, which is a real issue. Regardless of like having tracked if it's been transmitted or not, the fact that it is still a possibility is a very real and scary thing. So sort of threefold that's made this extremely controversial in the West. But I don't think that it is unattainable. And I think there are places, you know, the American Prairie Reserve is trying really hard. They may be going about it in a way that I might have chosen differently, but they're doing good work in what they're doing there. And You know, there's a push to reintroduce bison in the Red Desert of Wyoming, which first we're going to have to extirpate the feral horses from it to get bison in there. But it's, you know, it could be a step in a way to bringing some balance back. But I am for bison wherever we can put them. But I also understand the sort of heavy price tag that comes with them in the West.

Sure. I think it's interesting too that a lot of cattle ranchers, why they have not embraced it more and just start raising bison as well as cattle or to switch that out.

It's— so I grew up on a bison ranch for a bit in—

Oh, really?

My dad ran the Elk Mountain Ranch out of Wyoming, which had a huge herd of bison and it was switching over to bison as my dad came on. And what I can tell you is that raising bison is not like raising cattle. And, you throw everything you know about cattle out the door and start over again. They are not the same animal. Bison can jump flat-footed over 8 feet.

Really?

Fences do not keep them in. You need to have high fences that are electrified if you're going to keep them in. And, they better be damn electrified because if they get running, they will run through anything. I watched them run through a steel gate and broke my dad's wrist. And, I was like 5 or 6. I was pretty young, but they, I mean, every structure we were working them around was like rebar, steel gate, big. It's not, you can't just put them in a wood pen and then, you know, if they spook or run, nothing stops them. It is why we ran them off of cliffs as humans. You know, they will just keep going.

Yeah.

And so, they are not the same animal and you can't just like switchover easy. It's an expensive switch. But the other thing I will say is that it's once you've made it and once you've got that under there, it does pay back. Bison are incredibly valuable right now and bison meat is popular and they sell well and their hides are used. I mean, there are a lot of people are choosing to do this switch, but if you are already sort of underwater a little bit as a cattle operation, It takes massive change and in a deep pocket to just flip it and change it. It's a very different mentality and they are not cows and nor should they ever be treated as such. They are wild animals still and they're very delicious ones, but they are so wild.

I love bison meat. It's probably my favorite.

Yeah.

So good.

It is. And, there's something bigger about them when you're around bison, whether it's in Yellowstone or even as I grew up, I have photos of me standing in the back of a Razor with a bull bison eating out of the back of it. And, they have more gravitas than a cow. And, it's just something a cow will never recreate in me. Yeah.

Jess, what is the most memorable outdoor experience that you've ever had? Hmm.

I have kind of— I was thinking about this and it's hard to like pick one. So I'm going to pick one that's sort of the most recent in my mind that keeps coming back to me. I was very, very, very blessed to be able to go on a Dall sheep hunt in the Northwest Territories of Canada. And it was like 2 weeks on horseback in, you know, 200 miles from the nearest road.

Wow.

And in a place where animals had never seen people and, or had seen very little people. And so didn't associate humans with danger or You know, they were more curious and that grizzly bears too. But being there in that kind of country gave me, you know, like whenever I'm out hunting or whenever I'm in big landscapes or any landscapes really, I was in New York just a couple of weeks ago. I always play this mind game of like trying and looking at the landscape and removing everything that humanity's put there. So pulling away the telephone poles and the houses and the roads and the scars on the land and just I'm just trying to imagine, like, what if I was the first person or I was one of the people that were there that had not the same impact that we colonial people do and what that landscape would look like. And in the Northwest Territories, it was the first time where I didn't have to guess. Like, I could look at it and be like, this is still relatively unscarred, you know, certainly touched by people, but it's not scarred by people. And it was really humbling and magic to be up there and to be around Dall sheep and be in places that are like just humbling to the very, very essence of that word. It was pretty incredible and something I will never forget. And I'll probably spend my life trying to figure out how to get back there.

Wow. Yeah, that sounds amazing. Just seeing that serene landscape.

It is.

Yeah. I bet you have some amazing pictures from it too.

Yeah, there's actually, there's a film and you can find it on the First Light website. It's called Annuli. And I was, like I said, there was a lot of luck involved. A friend of mine gave me this trip. She won it in a raffle and gave this trip to myself and Bridget, who I went with. And First Light sent a videographer along, Rick Smith, who was amazing. And so, So, there's a film about it. It's called Annuli, and you can find it on YouTube or on the First Light website.

Oh, cool. Yeah, we'll definitely include that in the show notes here. Jess, what's the biggest life lesson nature and the outdoors has taught you?

I am mortal. Yeah, no, I think that's probably it. I'm mortal, I'm humble, and I am not in control of everything. Yeah, it's actually some of the— it's the best lesson and it's been the one that's probably been the hardest earned lesson. But it is, it's that feeling of like, I think sometimes I get so wrapped up in my head about, oh my God, like if I don't pay this bill or how is this going to affect life and everything's like huge deal. And then I like go outside and I'm like, oh, I could be eaten by a grizzly. Things are actually okay. It's just, you know, yeah, you are mortal and it's okay to feel it. And maybe we should feel it a little more often.

Yeah, that would probably keep us in check a little bit more too.

For sure.

Is there an adventurous experience or excursion that you've had that you would never want to repeat?

Boy, I— so I had to think about this one because initially I was like, well, Well, like, I never would want to undo any of the experiences because, like, again, I've learned I'm mortal. So, it's good.

But— But, let's hear the near-death experience or experiences.

Oh, you know what's funny is, like, I've been charged by bears. I've been run over by moose. And, the one that I keep coming back to that, like, I really am like, no, I never want to do that again, was I got stung by a stingray. And I, uh, I was, I was like 14 or 15. Like I was just like out, I was in the panhandle of Florida. Uh, my dad's from Tallahassee. Uh, so we were, uh, along, God, I think we were on, we're near St. Teresa. So kind of in the armpit. Um, and, and I was just scooching my feet like I was told to, and I scooched my foot. right into the back end of a stingray. And, like—

Ouch.

Yeah. I was like, wait, you guys told me that if I walked like this, this was fine. I wasn't going to step on it. And, apparently, no, I just smashed my feet into it. Anyways, it was very painful and I learned a lot about neurotoxins and things like that real quick. And, uh, broken a lot of bones in my body, but it's the stingray I'd never want to do again. Really, I'll take grizzly bears.

Like, wow. Good to know.

Which is funny because I'm also, you know, I'm such a mountain kid, but I love the water. I love the ocean. Like, it didn't stop me from wanting to go back and fish and dive and do all this stuff. But yeah, that was just the one where I was like, you know, I could do without having ever had that experience.

Makes sense. You know, I just interviewed Randy Newberg for the show and we started talking about water and what it is about water that calls us. So I'd like to get your thoughts there too, because it seems like in my life anyway, there's just something about being in nature and being around running water, whether that's a stream, a lake, a creek, the ocean, whatever. Do you feel the same way?

I think we're powered by it. I mean, we are mostly water with some structure.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think it speaks to us on an elemental level at the very least. You know, we're born from it. You think about being in the womb. And I just, I think there's an element of like going back to the lizard brain, you know, the sort of instinctual brain that finds comfort and solace and peace in it because it reminds us of places we were before the world was complicated.

Yeah.

And, I feel it whether it's sitting by rivers or some of the most mesmerizing sitting by a peaceful place in the ocean where you can hear the waves coming in and out and watch the tide come in and watch the tide go out. It's just mesmerizing for me. And, the sustenance not only in the sense of what the water can provide as far as drinking and hydration but as far as what lives there and The, you know, nearly everything edible in it in one way or another. Yeah, it's just, it's, we often take it for granted, but I certainly feel it. It is a major draw that's elemental.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. One of the questions that I love to ask guests is what type of gear do they consider essential to whenever you're going into the backcountry, you're going on an adventure or just everyday carry. Are there specific pieces of kit or gear that you always have on you?

I have a piece of gear I always wish I had on me and I often forget and then I get mad about it. But I can tell you that I most often pocket knives. I, you know, I'm a horse girl, so I have horses and outdoors and everything else. And I, one, they do not make women's jeans with pockets big enough to put stuff in. So that's first and foremost. I think if I was wearing men's jeans, I would have a pocket knife on me more often. But yeah, pocket knives, they just feel like you can make a lot of stuff out of them if you need to.

Yeah.

As far as backcountry and things that like I are sort of always in my essentials kit, I sort of think in the mindset of like, you know, if I happen to be out here longer than I expected to, things that have multiple uses. So You know, like, rather than, than, like, a full bandage kit, you know, I'm thinking of things of like, do I have a t-shirt that I can wear or something like that that can also be, like, torn up if needed? Do I have, you know, I have walking sticks that I want to use, but can I also use them for something else? You know, can it turn into a tent pole? Or I'm always looking for the multiple use stuff. One, I'm a small-built person, so I am a fan of as light as possible, but I'm also a comfort creature. So I really have to find multiple uses of stuff to make sure that I'm keeping stuff light while not having to get a pack horse. But yeah, pocket knife's just sort of my always go-to. And in my neck of the woods, bear spray.

Ah, yeah. That makes sense.

Bear spray, because I am not good enough with a handgun to hit a tennis ball being thrown at me 36 miles an hour with teeth.

Fair. Very fair. It's interesting you said the knife because so we are designing a knife called the Gasper 4, and it's going to be out later this summer. And one of the reasons was because the knife was the first tool. It kind of preceded all the other tools because once you create a knife, you can make everything else you need. And it's the one thing, in my opinion, that everyone needs in the outdoors. And so that's coming out.

It's the one thing I can't make. I've never figured out how to flintknock. So a sharp edge is something. Yeah. So once you have that, again, like I said, it's like the multiple use, like, all right, I can make bandages now.

That would actually be a really cool survival training type of expedition where you actually go out and make your own knife. In the wilderness. I haven't seen any that do that.

I mean, it really is learning a sharp edge is something I think that's, I mean, really with everything else comes after it. It is. That's an interesting, I've never heard of it. I've never conceptualized it being the first tool, but it absolutely sharp edge was the first tool. And yeah, that's a really interesting, you know, I worked and did some, a lot of work with the National Outdoor Leadership School with the Wilderness Medicine Institute in a And a big part of what I took from that work was this mentality of like, only bring the essentials. You know, what else can you create? Like, do you need to pack a splint or do you have stuff that like when put together in the right way can make a splint? You know, just understanding like how having those necessary skills to take care of yourself without, you know, packing a horse and 10 llamas because I could absolutely fill that with stuff I wanted to. I mean, if you want me to bring bagged wine into the backcountry, I will. But not on my back.

Yeah, that's a good point. So we love talking about gear on the show just because, you know, we are a gear company. But I love talking about brands. My background is actually in digital marketing and brand building. And so I love hearing from guests what brands they think are doing just an amazing job, whether it comes in terms of quality or the conservation work they're doing, and preferably both. So, are there companies or brands that you just love and think are just doing a great job in those arenas?

Well, obviously, I feel, you know, I do a lot of work with First Light. So, I have some loyalty there, not just to the gear, but to the fact that I've never— they jump into every conservation thing that they can, whether it's actually having opinions that I know has lost them customers, but they have some opinions and they stand up and they speak for it. And it's such a breath of fresh air in the industry to see that rather than just like not weighing in. The fact that they have a women's line and they are willing to work on it and they know that it needs to be better, but it's coming. It's this ability to recognize a niche and start to fill it, but try and fill it with with quality, not just, you know, putting gear out there to have gear out there. And I really respect that. And I love the people that work for First Light. I've been with them sort of since the inception of my hunting career. And it's— I wouldn't have it any other way. They're really great, great folks. And it's a good company.

They make great gear. I've used a lot of their baseline gear.

They do. And, the layering system, especially in the West, is critical because it'll be frigid in the morning and 95 degrees in the middle of the day. And, no one piece of gear does that.

Sure.

The other one—

Let me ask another controversial question first. What were your thoughts when they were purchased by MeatEater?

Oh, yeah, I had thoughts. I think I was really worried. I think Meat Eater's niche and their ability to bring people into conservation or into hunting that may not have necessarily thought about it in that way, they've done a really good job in opening that conversation. I do wish they'd do more. I wish they were a little more approachable to maybe a more diverse audience, but I do The niche that they've created and done was not there before and they have made it and that was needed. And I have a great respect for that. I was worried—

Yeah.

When First Light was acquired by MeatEater that it would change the family feeling that First Light has, the people that work for it, the pro team members, like everything. It is a family. It is a First Light family. And it's their friends, they're people I would choose to spend my time with. And I was worried that that would change and it hasn't, luckily. And I've been very thankful for that. And it's, you know, the reason I've stayed on and just still think that they do great work. And they are getting more bandwidth and they have the ability to do bigger stuff now with MeatEater. And hopefully that has a positive impact. Whatever my misgivings are sometimes with meat eaters, maybe speaking to one demographic and one demographic only, I think they have lessons that they can teach each other and I hope they do. Yeah, ever the diplomat on that one.

Yeah, we'll leave that aside there and let you continue on to Any other companies, brands that you really like?

Well, I mean, I think I struggled coming into the hunting sort of clothing and gear world as a woman is disheartening, shocking, and depressing, honestly. You know, we obviously find the gems there, and a lot of companies are scrambling to fill in things But a lot of the designers are men and it's really obvious. But small things that I've noticed, like my biggest struggle finding gear was actually in binocular harnesses because most are never made with the idea that there will be boobs underneath them.

That's a great point. I had never thought about that.

And as a smaller body, upper body, but deeper body because you have a chest. And as an archer who, when you draw, it comes, you pull across your chest, big bulky bino harnesses do not work for a female archer because you take that bulkiness and add, you know, 3 to however many inches you need and it just gets worse. And so I went through every bino harness And, I lamented and lamented and I settled on the FHF Gear harness and I love it. I think what set it aside is it was a narrower profile and they added an optional where you could add padding to the back of the harness. So, where it bites in at the shoulders, which women that wear bras know, the things that sit on the shoulders are important to be comfortable because you have something underneath It's not just a shirt. And so that was something that I thought was really well done. It fits my smaller frame and they go tight enough for it. And obviously there's always places that it can be better, but they are the ones— I think Marsupial Gear also does some really good vinyl harnesses, but I have not worn those. I've just heard that from other women.

Gotcha.

And then I think lastly, and the other one I struggled with was pads. packs, like backcountry packs that can have a nice light frame that can also pack out a hindquarter of an elk on. And it's a lot to ask of a pack. And, you know, sort of the leading pack companies, you have like Stone Glacier, Mystery Ranch, Kofaru, and maybe Exo is probably up in there, Outdoorsman.

Yeah.

Mystery Ranch makes a women's line. I've used them and I think they're great. I have chosen to actually go with Kifaru because they make a 22-inch frame. Stone Glacier does not, or not yet. Hopefully, maybe they will. And they don't market it to women. They just say it's 22 inches, like, pick a pack that fits you. It's not $40 more with a women's name on it. And, I really respected that, that Kofaru did it. They weren't pretentious about it. They put out quality gear. It's made in America. And, I came around to them slowly because I, for a long time, was kind of put off because I thought they were a super bro-y company that—

Sure.

You just kind of see the communications and you're like, oh, I don't know about that. Then I met Aaron Snyder.

He's a good dude.

And asked him some questions about the women's pack. And he came aside after that talk and sat down with me and literally was like, let's figure out how to get a pack that fits you. And he's like, we make 22 inches. I think this frame will fit you better. And it was the first time I had somebody like talk to me like I was a legitimate hunter. that actually did, like when I said I need a pack that can pack out a hindquarter of an elk, believed me that that was what I was going to be doing with it. And then like sat down and was like, all right, here's the one that fits you. And I ended up with just as it, I was looking sort of for a day pack that I could also like, you know, maybe overnight if I needed to, but thinking backcountry elk camp pack. And I ended up with the Stryker Kofaru and 22-inch frame and it was perfect and it's comfortable. And it's the first time I've like had a frame that like didn't knock the back of my head because it was too tall or things like that. And yeah, so many kudos to them. I came, came to Kofaru slowly, uh, but, but I'm here to stay.

Yeah, they make great packs. I own several of theirs and spent a lot of money with Schneider and the boys over there.

Yeah, yeah. They— well, and just the way that they It was very humbling and good to have Aaron just be like, yeah, we don't make a women's pack. We just make packs that fit women. And, I was like, oh, you have my loyalty.

Good. Jess, is there a book or books that have had a major impact on your life?

Oh, yeah. I think Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer has been something that put a lot of words to sort of thoughts I'd had, but organized it in a way that I could understand sort of my thoughts and feelings a little better. I think her discussions on reciprocity and science and nature, while understanding that we all come to it in different ways, you know, sort of the indigenous learnings still being science, was something that was really profound and eye-opening. As well as she goes through just ways to be in this world that are a little more plugged in than I think our day-to-day lives tend to get. And I really appreciated that. The other one, this is a weird one, was probably Tom Robbins' book, Skinny Legs and All. And Tom Robbins is a sort of satirical writer in the same vein of Kurt Vonnegut.

Oh.

But Tom Robbins is maybe a little less— he's a little more upfront and funny and a little less satirical and twisted as Vonnegut gets. But they have the same thing where there's kind of 2 stories in one where they both present a story that when read on sort of this— as a face-value story, This very weird kind of crazy adventure or something is happening. And then if you read in between the lines, you can kind of get their commentary on culture and things going on in the world and zeitgeists and everything like that. So there's always sort of this 2-in-1 story structure, at least in Kurt Vonnegut and Tom Robbins' world. And Tom Robbins writes this book called Skinny Legs and All that is about this young woman in an Airstream trailer and And he has some like stationary objects that are actually sentient beings, like a spoon and a sock that talk. Sounds really bizarre, but hang with me through it. But what he comes through and the narrative that he tells is actually about the nature of divinity and how sort of the story, how humanity has perceived and told the stories of divinity throughout the ages. And he talks about that. You know, some of the biblical stories and whatnot. But the main thing that I took from that book was he talks about how, you know, by naming the divine, we immediately make it human. And so some things can remain a mystery and be unnamed and be just as important as whether we give them a name or not. And I come from, you know, I was raised just sort of outside of any religion, not with any agenda on like thinking it's negative, but just that I was raised 2 hours from town and we didn't go to church. And, you know, I was left up to my own devices to learn nature and find spirituality. And I thought his approach to it left room for something divine without me having to buy into a structure of it. And so, it really sort of read into how I approach the world and gave me some language for it.

Yeah. Oh, fascinating. We'll definitely include those 2 in the show notes and I'll have to check them out for sure.

They're— Tom Robbins is weird. Hang with him, get 50 pages in and then, you know.

Got it. Will do. Do you have a favorite podcast that you listen to regularly? Boy.

So I am a podcast listener when I am in search of knowledge for things. And I've recently been on this Scene on Radio podcast, not on it, but listening to it, where they have done a couple structures. Right now they're doing a season, or they just finished a season about democracy in America and sort of the history of it. So obviously the politics nerd in me was like, I have to listen to this one. Super heavy, but really well done, really well edited and put together. I also really love the Rich Outdoors podcast and how Cody has sort of approached things. I was lucky enough to sit down with Cody and he was one of the first podcast hosts in a litany of many now that have since come, but he was one of the first ones that sat down and didn't just outright ask me like, so tell me about being a woman in the hunting industry. And I was like, okay, well, my name is Jessie and I bring other things to the table as well. And he just kind of sat down and was like, so tell me about this Dall sheep hunt you went on. And I was like, yes, I get to talk about it. I really love that. And then probably Modern Huntsman, the Modern Huntsman Oh yeah. I guess they support, it's not their podcast, but they support Byron Pace's Into the Wilderness podcast. And I'll do a shameless plug here because I recently sat down with Byron and Ford Van Fossen of First Light and we did a 6-series sort of, or a 6-episode series called Conservation Roundtable that just talks about pertinent things that are happening in the conservation and politics world. Idaho Wolves being one of them. And that was a really fun one. So, it's, you know, all approaching different things. I tend to be the person though that's like, I want to learn about, you know, like the Endangered Species Act. And then I'll go and find like a bunch of podcasts that talk about it and sort of pick and choose through that. I'm a terrible loyal podcast listener. I'm very I'm pretty fickle in that. I don't routinely listen to one all the time, unfortunately.

I tend to find myself where I'll go really deep with a certain one and it'll usually start where I'm interested in a particular guest or what they're about. I hear them on a podcast and I'm like, oh, they have their own. And, I'll go really deep with theirs and listen. Right now, the one I'm listening to a lot is Daniel Vitalis, his Wild Fed podcast.

I have not heard of it. I will have to—

Yeah. show as well called Wild Fed. I believe it's on the Outdoors Channel.

Wild Fed.

Really, really, really good show though.

It's called the Wild Fed Podcast?

Yeah, Wild Fed. All right.

I like it.

Yeah.

I have some driving coming up. I'm headed to Missoula. So.

Ah, there you go. Nice. Jess, what is one piece of advice that you would give to our audience when it comes to maybe conservation or hunting or all the things that you're When you are confronted with a topic that creates a knee-jerk reaction in you emotionally, sit down with it for a little bit before you respond.

Whether it's, you know, I guess I would say is use that as an opportunity and an open door to have a conversation, not just a trading of statements. And even if you leave that conversation still believing the way you do, Maybe you will have gained some empathy from the other side. And that's what we seem to be lacking right now. As someone that works in politics, it's, it's the ability to see things from another's shoes that we are really out of practice with.

Yeah. You know, that is definitely a common thread that I'm noticing throughout society, throughout recent podcast guests, or even just personal development work that I've been doing is really trying not to get triggered by certain things. And if you are, to take a step back and figure out where that's coming from and why. Yeah. So it's pretty interesting.

Yes. Knock off the Facebook warrior. We don't need any of those. We've got them.

Maybe just knock off Facebook in general.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Use it for the funny memes because there's some great memes, but that's about it.

Yeah. Yeah. And some of the, some of the groups are decent too.

Yeah. Yeah.

I found Some really good outdoors groups that are good. But other than that, it seems to be a cesspool of political bullshit. Yeah.

I would say the other thing is get involved in politics because by not being there and by not plugging in, you are handing over your valid ticket for complaining. If you're going to complain, damn it, get involved.

Good point.

Yeah.

Before we wrap up, is there a project that you are really excited about right now, either that you're working on or that's upcoming? Boy, that just really gets you stoked in the morning.

There's always a lot. I think work-wise, I'm really looking for— I mean, I was talking earlier about a bill for Wyoming to require the removal of edible portions from the field on black bears and mountain lions. And right now our state doesn't currently do it. And so what I'd like to do is not only include bears and lions under the Watt and Waste Rule, is what it's called, but I'd also like to remove the word trophy from all of our regulations. Not because it's, you know, we're removing trophy hunting, but because I think in an era where words are taken at face value, trophy is a word that has too many face values to be a public-facing word in a public that does not understand hunting. And so pulling trophy and just, you know, talking about hunting as it is seems like the first step to maybe having a real conversation around it.

That's a great point.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Just little things. I think the other thing that I am in the middle of, and I talked again about this a little earlier, is Shelma John and I doing this film series. It'll be a 3-part 3-episode film series called On the Land. And it's sort of the exploration of somebody very entrenched in the outdoor world, but very total new to the hunting world, coming hunting and learning the ropes. And somebody who spends a lot of time wondering why people climb rocks, figuring out why people climb rocks and enjoying it and learning some new skills in that and sort of Again, when we talk about empathy, starting to walk in another's shoes. So, those will probably be out next year. We have season or episodes 1 and 2. The filming is wrapped. We saw the rough cut of episode 1 and I'm really excited about it, but it'll be on the land. It's coming out of sort of Hunt to Eat and the Hunt to Eat family. And, it'll be myself and Shelma Jun. And, if you guys don't know who Shelma Jun is, you should look up Flash She created an all-women's climbing festival. I was a co-founder of Artemis Sportswomen. And so we sort of met in this space of being women in some very male-dominated sports and talking about it in a different way and having a different narrative. And Shelma is just— I'm really honored to be working with her. A little fangirl bit with working with Shelma. She's amazing. She's done a lot for the outdoor industry already.

Super cool. That's great. Jess, thanks so much. Where can people learn more about you online? Where can they find you?

I mean, you can always find me on Instagram. I'm just Jess Johnson, and I'm sure the handle will be included in the show notes. But the other— the way that I would prefer you find me is to look up wyomingwildlife.org and see the work we're doing here in Wyoming, or look up Artemis and see the work that Artemis is doing nationally for bringing sort of the women's voice into more of a spotlight with a focus on leadership. And that's the way I would prefer. But obviously, if there's any questions, sentiments, anybody wants to yell at me about my stance on wolves, you can get a hold of me. You can get a hold of me on Instagram, and I'm always happy to chat.

Sounds good. Jess, thanks so much for being here today. Really enjoyed our conversation.

Oh, this is great. Thank you so much for the invite. Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.