RHR: Rediscovering Health, Nature, and Purpose-Driven Business, with Seth Spears

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Hey everyone, Chris Kresser here.

Welcome to another episode of Revolution Health Radio.

This week I'm excited to welcome Seth Spears as my guest, and this will be a different conversation than I typically have on the show.

Seth is a business strategist for conscious, purpose-driven entrepreneurs who value mission over margin and purpose over profit.

He is an avid outdoors person himself. He's started several companies in the past, some of which are certified B Corps. They all have a social or environmental or health-related purpose. And he is someone who thinks a lot about the intersection of health, wellness, both mental and physical health, investing, entrepreneurship, and self-improvement and personal development. He's the founder and chief officer Chief Visionary Officer of Wellness and the founder of RealWild Gear, both of which we talk about. You know, I've had conversations, similar conversations in the past with people like Mark Sisson, and I of course have a similar background where I've tried to create value through businesses that make a contribution to health and wellness and really supporting people in becoming better versions of themselves. So I thought it'd be interesting to have Seth on and have a chat with him about this. I know many people in the are pursuing similar initiatives themselves or maybe hope to at some point. So hope you enjoy the conversation.

Let's dive in.

Seth, such a pleasure to have you on the show.

Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me.

So I'm excited for this conversation. It's like a little bit different than my typical conversation, but one that I enjoy and that I've had before with other health-conscious and socially conscious entrepreneurs, Mark Sisson, The last episode we had, we talked about how he thinks about creating value through businesses that really help develop, first of all, just provide people with cool products that they like and enjoy, but also that change the paradigm, that do things differently. And whether that's more environmentally or ecologically sustainable, products that are actually contributing to health rather than detracting from it. And I know this is something you think a lot about across your varied history in the business world and your more recent ventures with wellness and Rewild. So, yeah, maybe we can just start there. Like, over the years, what is the philosophy that has evolved for you in terms of how you look at this?

So I've got a couple philosophies that I try to live by when it comes to both business and just personally. One is be kind, be curious, have fun, and don't waste. Those are kind of like my 4 pillars or the ethos that I try to live by just personally. In business, it's always been quality over quantity. And then the kind of the keys to that business success that I found, what's worked for me, is just to do the right things long enough consistently. So I guess my overall ethos is a combination of all of those, of looking at business from a different lens, because it seems like today we have— we're very much in a space in this mass consumerist society we live. We want things as cheap as possible. We're in a microwave society and we want the thing right now. And it— like, we're addicted to cheap goods. But I've always looked at it, I'd rather pay more for something that's better and it's going to last, and not something that's cheap, made from plastic, or it's coming from China or whatever. But how can— I'd rather buy once and cry once than buy multiple times at a lesser price point, but it's more hassle. And so I kind of look at everything that I've gone into business-wise is how can we focus on the quality side of it and not just sell as much as possible or not create as much as possible but create really high-quality goods or services that I can be proud of, about that I can look back on and say, hey, I did that, and really be very happy that I put my name behind it.

Let's talk a little bit about wellness as an example of that. And, and, and there are other factors here, which is, you know, something you've, I think, all the way back with Wellness Mama and your involvement there. And, you know, a lot of the content that you guys put out disrupted some of the mainstream paradigms on how to look at certain topics. And I can relate to that, of course, myself.

Sure.

In many cases, the mainstream paradigms are outdated and not supported by the current evidence. And one of those areas that seemed particularly ripe for disruption and innovation was oral care. It seemed like as there was progress in a lot of other areas of functional wellness and health, but oral care and dentistry Dentistry always struck me as something that was like a little bit stuck in the Stone Age or at least 30, 40 years out of date with what the research was showing. So, tell us, maybe tell people what Wellness is first of all and then what led you to start that brand. Sure.

So, Wellness is a B Corporation certified brand of all-natural personal care products, primarily oral care. So, we also have hair and skincare, but over 80% of our business is in the oral care.

CareSpace.

So when we decided that we're going to launch a personal care brand, we were looking at different industries where it seemed like no matter how health-conscious someone was, the products that they were still buying, the conventional ones, and that was typically your toothpaste, your shampoo, conditioner, your deodorant, all of those things that we use every day, sometimes multiple times a day. But there was not a lot of conscious thought around what the ingredients were. And so I was the co-founder of wellnessmama.com, which became the largest health and wellness website and podcast for moms. And so it was primarily an educational site, content, education, information on how to improve your, your health naturally. And so we had tutorials on how to make your own personal care products. And then the audience really liked those products, but they got tired of making it themselves. And so when you hear the same request over and over, we just make these and sell it, you realize that's probably a good business opportunity. But that happened with quite a few different products, including like different recipes and tutorials and such. So we started looking at where there was demand, but then also where is there an opportunity? Because no matter how health-conscious somebody is, what are those things that they're still hesitant to change? And primarily it was your toothpaste, your deodorant, your shampoo and conditioner, because often it's just a matter of habit. I've done a couple informal polls with friends and other people who aren't necessarily so health conscious, some that are, and just asking them how they decide what products they're going to buy when it comes to their personal care products. And it was almost unanimous, whatever my parent bought when I was a kid, whatever my wife, my spouse would buy, or whatever's on sale. And so there was just a lack of thought of thinking about what are these things that we're using. As you're aware, when people go down kind of a more natural holistic health journey, they start looking at the food they eat typically. That's kind of where it starts. And then their supplementation and how they're living and things like that. But for whatever reason, the products that we're putting on our body and in our body multiple times a day, it hasn't gained quite as much traction or attention as some of these other things like our food and stuff. So I don't know why that is. I think it's just a force of habit maybe, but I think we're starting to change, which is great.

Yeah, that's amazing. And it is really interesting that there's— I found this to be true, like in working with patients and just talking to people and hearing from people over the years, that there's some areas where people are really willing to make changes pretty easily and quickly. And then there are other areas that it takes longer or you see more resistance. And it's— I mean, I did also see something similar with oral care and personal care products, like people would be eating really healthy diets. and then just putting like the craziest chemicals on their skin. And I would have to explain to them that actually the digestive system has more defenses against toxins than the skin does, you know, because from an evolutionary perspective, sometimes we would eat things that were poisonous. And so the gut evolved—

Yeah.

A pretty sophisticated mechanism for keeping toxins out, but there was no historical precedent for toxins getting on our skin, so our skin didn't— didn't evolve those defense mechanisms, nor really did our mouth in that way. And so it takes people a while to really like, for that to sink in, I think.

When you would bring that up to patients and people that you were working with, what did they say? Like, how did they justify the toxic chemicals and things that they were using compared to like their food or other things?

That's a good question. I think it was a mix of just lack of awareness in general, just not having thought about it. Like you said, they were just defaulting to a sort of habitual purchase process because their mom bought that toothpaste or their friends or whatever. But then I also think it was just not really understanding how important it was and not understanding that connection, for example, that I just mentioned where the skin is a very permeable barrier and whatever you put on your skin actually can get absorbed into your body quite easily. I genuinely think a lot of people had never thought about that and they just— 'cause when you touch the skin, it feels solid, right?

Yeah.

It feels like it's a barrier and, you know, whatever you put on your skin is not necessarily going to get in your body. And so just educating them about that was super helpful. So yeah, I mean, I think it's an area where more people are starting to pay attention. And I often refer people to Wellness because it's just a great product. It's one that we use ourselves and Once that switch flips in their brain, I think it's then pretty easy for people to stick with that.

Yeah, I agree. It just takes a little time to get there. And I think once you start lifting Pandora's box off just to question all the things that we do, the foods that we're putting in our mouth, the products that we're putting on our skin, you can't unsee it once you've kind of gone down that path.

Right, and what's been your experience with that so far in terms of the brand? Like, you know, do people notice a difference and appreciate that, or is it something that they're doing more just because they think, you know, they now understand that they should and it's a healthier choice?

So we do get a combination of both. I mean, obviously once someone goes down that kind of natural health path, they start looking at everything, all the ingredients that are in their products that they're using and consuming every day. But we have hundreds and hundreds of testimonials of people who have started using our toothpaste and our oral care line that have remineralized their cavities. They've had a mouthful of cavities and gone back to the dentist, and they no longer do because the active ingredient in our toothpaste is microhydroxyapatite, which your teeth, your bones, they're made of hydroxyapatite, and it's a naturally occurring mineral. And so it's way better for you than fluoride. which is not actually occurring in the same way. And so we've just had tremendous success with so many of our customers who have just reported back they have whiter teeth, they have less soft spots and cavities. And so we work with a lot of holistic and biological dentists because they're on the forefront of the oral care world. And especially like mentioned before, there had not been a lot of updates or changes in the oral care space. But those in the more holistic and biological side, they are, they're at the forefront of it, looking at the science, looking at the new emerging research and what ingredients are good to use and which are not. So because of that, we've just had tremendous success with those customers that have made the switch over to our all-natural toothpaste.

You know, in the Wellness Mama days, I remember articles about the importance of nutrient-dense diet. for dental health and oral health. And of course, that's just as true now as it was then. There's like 2 sides of that equation, what you're eating and how that contributes to your oral health. And of course, other health factors, reducing inflammation and microbiome. We know of the connection between the oral microbiome, the gut microbiome, etc. So how do you balance that, like, in your discussions of like oral care products, Versus like the foundational stuff that people need to be doing?

So, I mean, what I tell people is that no matter how good your oral care regimen is, the ingredients you're using are cleaner, you know, you're brushing 3 times a day, you're flossing or water picking, that's great. But if you're not eating healthy, if you're still eating sugar-laden foods and sodas and high carbs, it's not gonna help that much because It's so interrelated of your diet and how that affects your whole person, your whole being, your your microbiome, your entire mouth. Dr. Weston A. Price, I mean, that was his whole philosophy and everything that he wrote about. I mean, he was a dentist and talked about how we eat, how that affects everything, and affects our oral care and the amount of cavities that we have. So again, improving the products that you're using—that's great. But it's got to start with what you're eating, what you're consuming, because that's going from the inside out. So I like to have that conversation with people. But, you know, we live in, like we've mentioned before, such a microwave society. We want the easy fix. And often we don't want to change those habits that are the ones that are creating the issue in the first place.

Absolutely. And what does that look like? Do you guys do any kind of education with your customer base around that stuff, or are you mostly focused on the oral, just the oral care application?

We do both. So we actually have a dental advisory board. And so multiple different holistic and biological dentists that we work with who help us in some content creation and showing some of the research for all of our customers, for those on our email list, for social media. And then in turn, we make recommendations for our customers who are looking for, for a dentist who thinks this way. Because there's a lot of areas, or as people get turned on to how important this is, the more traditional American Dental Association dentist, they're not looking at it like that. They're just still recommending Crest and Colgate and just the traditional stuff and fluoride treatments and all of this. And so they're just not thinking about it in a holistic manner. So in working with those dental partners, it's been a fantastic way just for us to get new customers, for them to get new patients, and to educate them on on how important all of these things are. So one of the statistics that I find absolutely fascinating is that if your mouth maintains a pH of 6.8 or higher, you can't get cavities. Like, the microbiome within— in the mouth from your saliva and everything, it helps protect it. It creates a membrane and it creates those cavities from forming. But just brushing your teeth is not going to do that, and trying to maintain that is challenging, especially with all the all the processed foods and everything that we eat today. So it's a balancing act and trying to, trying to keep it there.

Let's talk a little also about a completely different niche, which is Rewild and the outdoor industry. We know now that there's a lot of research on the importance of spending time outdoors to physical health and mental health. So curious to hear more about how you made that jump. I know from knowing you personally for a long time that you've been an outdoorsman and are an avid outdoor person just like I am. So curious how you brought that together.

So nature has always been my happy place. I mean, one of my favorite activities in the world is camping, just getting away from the rat race, getting away from the day-to-day grind of the default world, and just reconnecting with our natural world. And so ever since I was a kid, I just loved being out in the woods. Whether that was just going for a hike or going hunting or skiing or just being out in nature. And so several years ago, probably like 15 years ago now, my brothers and I were sitting around a campfire drinking bourbon and comparing knives. And just like, I grew up in a big family of 6 kids, 5 boys and 1 girl. And so we all have just loved the wilderness. And so we're sitting around a campfire just comparing knives and Who makes the best knife? Or what do you like about this one? What do you like about that one? What do you don't like? If you were gonna make your own, what would it look like? How'd you design it? And so we kind of had this idea in the back of our minds of what if we created a knife company? And so fast forward a few years, um, and like around COVID and with all the lockdowns, I realized that the one thing people could still do was just get outside in nature. Um, because, you know, they're social distancing, you're out just going for a hike or hunting or camping, and you're away from people or just with family or friends. And so I was like, hey, maybe there's an opportunity where we could launch this now. So we started Rewild Gear and mainly to focus on camping, hunting, and backpacking, those particular niches, and just to scratch our own itch of creating really high-quality and minimalistic products for those, for doing the activities that we love. But the mission really is to get people, and men specifically, back into nature, back into the wilderness, to reconnect with the wilderness, with family, with friends, because as men, you know, we are, We have it tough today. We're maligned in a lot of ways, and there's a lot of pressure in our day-to-day life. And so it's my belief that we can find our soul again, to get back to our very primitive and more tribal roots and like who we are, that wild, fierce man that everyone needs that is going to make the world a better place, that's going to focus on quality over quantity and protecting those that are vulnerable. But the only way we can do that is by reconnecting with our— that very natural wilderness environment. And so when we come back into the default world, then we're better husbands and fathers and business owners and employees. And so the mission really is just to get people to spend more time and reconnect with, with the wild, because we're losing a lot of those wild places and wild spaces, and we can't protect what we don't love or understand.

Absolutely. What are some of your— I know you mentioned camping, but I know you're also a hunter. And what are some of your favorite ways of getting out there?

Yeah, I love hunting. Just, it's the most primal thing you can do of really being in touch with our food supply. You know, it's very easy just to go to Whole Foods or Kroger or wherever and just buy a steak. But it's something else entirely when you're out in the forests or in the mountains and you're hunting a deer or an elk and you harvest that and you see exactly where it comes from and you're taking a life and realizing that this life is to continue your own. And so you're bringing food back for your family and there you're utilizing every part of that animal or as much as you possibly can. So that's definitely one of my favorites. I love backpacking. I love camping. Just extended time spent in nature is just so important. And I feel like in this very technological age that we live in, we don't do enough of that. We're just inundated with technology from the moment we wake up till the moment we go to sleep. And, you know, all the blue light and the EMFs and everything else. And so disconnecting and resetting our circadian rhythm is so important just from a health perspective. I feel like we just don't do enough of that. So anytime I can get out there and just be in the backcountry, it's a good day.

Yeah, I've seen studies, and I'm sure you have as well, showing that even just a few days of camping, being in the outdoors, can completely reset circadian rhythm if it's disrupted.

Yeah.

And I've also seen studies of kids who are struggling with pretty intense behavioral and mental health conditions that, you know, just spend a few days in nature and have a pretty transformative and even lasting experience. I think it's like especially true now with screens and addiction to screens that we see in both kids and adults, just the ability to unplug from that. Because a lot of the backcountry environments, thankfully, at least for now, don't have that. You don't have access.

With Starlink now, that's probably going to change that.

Yeah, man, that's— I understand the benefit of Starlink, but I'm genuinely scared about the impact that's going to have, that I'll be camping in the backcountry and someone will be watching Netflix on their iPad, not too far away, and I'll hear that. But this is an opportunity that we have, at least for now, to really detach from the influence of these devices. And I know you You've looked into this research, like what have you seen are the biggest benefits for kids and adults?

Yeah, so an example that I'll give, I think kids don't do hard things anymore. And creating resilience, I know you're a parent, as am I, and creating resilience in your children is so important. And I think when you travel or when you have extended time spent in nature, there's gonna be things that come up. Like whether it's the weather, maybe you're getting bit by bugs, or it gets cold, or it's hot, or you're— you lost something or forgot something. And so an extended camping trip, that can help build resilience because you're sleeping in a tent or on the ground, and you're— you don't have those normal creature comforts. We— hedonic adaptation is such a thing where we just get accustomed to these normal everyday comforts where it's perfectly 72 degrees in our home because of heating and air conditioning, but we're not building that resilience muscle. And so I think the more that we can do that, the more we appreciate those comforts. So I had an experience a couple weeks ago, which I know you're a big skier, Chris, and I had my kids out skiing here in Colorado. And so my younger daughter, she hadn't skied in a couple years and she didn't want to do ski school. And I'm like, I think you should. She's like, no, I don't want to. I'm like, okay, well, this is your decision, but then you have to keep up. And so she was struggling. You know, she, she's 11 and she hadn't skied in several years. And so just, you know, some of the basic turns and stuff she was having trouble remembering. And so I was just encouraging of her and like, listen, okay, you made a decision. And so there's consequences to those actions. And yes, it's hard, but I believe in you. And if you just like follow me, turn, do your S-curve turn. I'm not going to let you go too fast or get out of control. We're going to stay on the, on the, on the smaller slopes and everything. And so she cried, she complained, but I wouldn't let her quit. I'm like, look, you made a decision, you want to do this trip and you're going to do it. And then I could see it start to shift and see watching that change within her where it went from hard, I hate this, to the confidence starting to build up like, oh, I made that turn. Oh, I made it down that hill. Oh, I'm keeping up. Oh, I'm almost as fast as my siblings. And seeing that confidence build and that resilience just from being in nature and overcoming those hard things, I think that's so important and we just don't have enough. I mean, you're not going to get that on an iPad. So yeah, the more we can do that with our children and ourselves, the better we're going to be.

Yeah. I mean, and then you have even formal programs like Outward Bound and NOLS that are, that are based on this idea that—

Exactly.

You know, learning to survive in the outdoors builds confidence and leadership skills. And people have different opinions about the methodology that they use. It's a little bit of a, like, a tough love kind of approach. But people, a lot of people who've been through those programs have benefited tremendously.

Yeah, I wish that I would have had the opportunity to go through one of those when I was, when I was younger, because I think just knowing my love for the outdoors, I think I would have just eaten it up. Maybe that would have changed the trajectory of things that I would have done. Who knows? But I think it would have been a great experience all around.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think what you said is so important about comfort and how in many ways our whole society is oriented around the pursuit of comfort and how that doesn't serve us. I mean, we're seeing a bit of a change now in terms of interventions like sauna. And cold plunge, for example. Those are definitely not comfortable if you're pursuing them at a, at an intense level. You know, it's not that comfortable to get into an ice bath that's 30, 36 degrees.

Yeah.

But people are doing it because they actually feel subjectively— I mean, number one, they hear about the research, but number two, they feel subjectively the benefit that comes from being uncomfortable for a period of time. And then the hormetic response, as you pointed out, that the body engages in reaction to that discomfort. And you don't have to do— you don't even have to have a cold plunge or sauna, although it's great if you can swing that. But like, as an example, sometimes I go skiing and I just wear one less layer than I would, you know, based on the temperature.

Yeah.

I think, okay, I'm just going to be cold today for a few hours. Or surfing. I used to do that as well. There was just a study that just came out showing that exposure to water that was 57 degrees for an hour led to all these incredible benefits. And so, that's not really even technically a cold plunge.

No.

57 degrees is not like an ice bath, but it's certainly a lot colder than your body temperature. And so, just swimming in water, for example, that's a little bit colder than normal, which you would do if you were surfing. Um, can be really beneficial.

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I remember reading a study about Michael Phelps. When he would train, he intentionally had the pool temperature, I think it was like 10 degrees colder than a lot of others. I can't remember the exact temperature, but he said that that really helped him push through and was motivation to swim faster. 'Cause he wanted to get done quicker with his workouts. And so, I think there's definitely something to that. And like you, I'm a huge fan of sauna and cold plunge, and it's one of my daily routines when I have access to it. I split time between Colorado and Florida, and my house in Florida, I have a sauna and cold plunge in my backyard, and so I use that every day. And in Colorado, I don't have one here as readily accessible, but whenever I do, it's a mental health game changer. Like, I find that it just puts me in a better emotional state. I'm more positive, and just doing circuits back and forth, It's so beneficial for that.

Yeah, absolutely. I feel the same way. I've told people for years that it's one of the most significant interventions that you can do in terms of how both objective and subjective benefits. Like if you look at some of the studies on regular sauna use, the reduction in cardiovascular disease risk is insane. It's like way, way more than almost anything that we know about. And, you know, if you get in the habit of doing sauna and cold plunge every morning, it's better than coffee. A lot of people will say, you know, it has a more lasting effect and actually probably improves your sleep rather than making it worse for many people. I have an infrared sauna, a near-infrared sauna, which is great. I think the optimal for cold— for like doing cold plunge sauna circuits is, for me, is a dry sauna that can get really hot, like up to 180 or 200.

Yeah, exactly.

We don't have the space for that here in our current place. But even with the near-infrared sauna, I can get that internal body temperature really ramped up and do a cold plunge after that. That's pretty— that's good for me on a regular day. I don't need to do more than that. But if I have the time and the setup, it's great to do like multiple circuits.

Yeah.

I like going back and forth and You need that hot sauna to warm back up after the cold plunge.

Yeah, totally.

Do you end on sauna or cold?

Cold.

Cold.

Usually.

I typically do as well, unless I just— unless I did like a hard workout or something. Or I've also found that if I'm doing it at night, I tend to sleep better, or my, my HRV tends to improve if I end on hot as opposed to cold, which is interesting.

Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I'll often take a hot shower after that. But so I get a little heat exposure after the cold, but I just, especially if I'm doing it in the morning, I like the invigorating—

Same.

Ending with a cold. Yeah. So what other benefits in terms of spending time outdoors? Like we've talked about building resilience. I think there's a lot of research too on relieving depression and I've definitely heard I've heard from patients and people I've worked with about that as well.

Yeah, there's— I've read some of those studies also. We are as connected as we are as a society because of social media and technology and phones and text messaging and everything else. We feel more disconnected and we've lost that in-person, that one-to-one exchange of just being in the presence of another. And so whenever you can get into nature and just disconnect from your phone or from those devices, and whether that's because you're out of range or don't have service, or you're intentionally shutting it off, the benefits are just amazing. Something that I don't know that a lot of people realize is the brain was originally designed as a sponge to soak up lots of information. And unfortunately, because we're inundated with so much technology, it's had to become a filter. So when we spend extended time in the backcountry, say camping, like under the stars or in a tent, and we're disconnected from technology, I think it takes 3 nights, 3 nights or 4 nights. And when you come back, your brain has actually reset and it's become a sponge again. And that's why if you've ever experienced this, you've done like a long backpacking trip or camping trip, and then you come back and you're almost in complete overwhelm, like you don't know what to do. You kind of have this freakout. Within your body just because your entire nervous system is downregulated because you don't have all these stimuli constantly coming at you. And then when you get back into the default world, it's like, oh, what's going on? There's the TV on, there's the radio, there's cars, there's noise nonstop, as opposed to just that very calming, just natural environment. And so I don't know how we change that though as a whole, but I think the more time we can get back to our more natural state, that will help to regulate the nervous system in the body. And then it's gonna create less stress on us mentally, emotionally. And then that's gonna help us in everything that we do in life.

Yeah, it's something I think a lot about as a father. The current generation of kids is growing up with just constant connectivity and very few moments where they are just alone with their thoughts, and they don't often have the opportunity to get bored. I think really good things happen when we get bored. Once we get through the initial discomfort, that's where a lot of creativity arises and our best ideas, innovation, etc.

Yes.

There's so many stories I've read a number of books on this topic and they often will use examples like Watson and Crick when they— the discovery of DNA was like— I can't remember if it was maybe Francis Crick, he was on a long walk in the woods.

Yeah.

Like he'd been working on this problem, working on this problem, nothing happened, stuck, and takes a really long walk in the woods. boom, just the answer comes to him. And there's so many stories like this where people have gotten clarity or inspiration, new ideas that have come to them when they have just been in a place where they don't have constant input coming into their brain.

Yeah.

And I just saw a study that was published, I think this week or early last week maybe, or late last week. And it was a randomized controlled trial. And they recruited 2 groups of people. One group had just normal phone use. The other group, they installed an app that basically blocked internet access and social media on their phone.

Whoa.

Which is similar. We have an app. We use an app called R-Pact for our daughter who has a phone. But we have parental controls, so she doesn't have access to the internet or social media.

Hmm.

So, I imagine it was something similar to that. But, you know, they could still text, they could still use Maps, they could still use their calendar, and maybe listen to music. I'm not sure. They saw absolutely profound improvements in mental health. They were superior to the effects of antidepressants. And they also, you know, the people were healthier, they were happier, they were having conversations, you know, with their friends and interacting more with their family members. They were more present as parents. And I just— that was not surprising at all to me.

Yeah.

But the question is, what can we do at this point? Because These technologies have become so ubiquitous, and you really have to make a very conscious and concerted effort as an individual and as a parent to put boundaries and guardrails around them. And even when you do that, it's still often a constant struggle. So, this is one of the things I think most about is like, how do we break free from this cycle? Because I think it's really harming us.

It is such a good question, and I wish I had an answer for it. I mean, I even noticed I've noticed it in my own life of like, you know, when there's nothing going on, I'll just pick up my phone and then just start scrolling, you know, on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or whatever. And it's just, it's so easy. And the algorithms are designed to keep us addicted. They're designed to keep us scrolling and looking through so we can have products sold to us or to have our opinions of things changed or positioned a certain way.

Right.

And I mean, there's, but it's not like it's, it's not all good or all bad. You know, it's a lot of gray area because technology has vastly improved our lives. But again, there's always a downside. You know, there's a, there's a flip side to everything. Like with AI, I mean, I'm, I'm way deep in AI right now and just utilizing it like as a therapist and using ChatGPT and telling my life story and having it spot patterns in myself that I'm Whether that is just my interpersonal life or as a father or as a business owner. And so that's— it's great. That's a great tool that we can use, but then it's easy just to fall into that and just use it all the time as opposed to actually going and talking to someone. So there's pros and cons to both. But to your question, like, how do we put in those safeguards? I wish I knew. And especially when it comes to kids, because as a father, we want to protect them. We want to give them the very best. and have them utilize technology because we don't want to be a Luddite and just say, throw all technology away, it's bad for you, but the whole world is going to use it. And then that doesn't work either. So I think it is having conversations with them and explaining, hey, this is what this does to your brain. So it's all about having the balance and maybe putting the phone on gray screen as opposed to the vibrant colors, which will kind of help change the circuitry. And so it doesn't feel quite so addictive. Maybe setting time limits and things like that. Yeah, I think it's gonna be different for different people just on how they're wired and what their own motivations are.

Yeah, for us, it's been a combination of all those things. I mean, our daughter's almost 14 now. And when she was younger, it was much easier. There was just like complete absence. Like she didn't have any devices and So, I think when it's black or white like that, it's easier to enforce or hold those boundaries because my belief is that a 4-year-old doesn't need to gain experience in the digital world. They'll have plenty of time in their life to learn how to use technology. And anyone who has kids knows they learn it very quickly. It's not something—

Yeah.

My daughter is already far more sophisticated in her digital technology use than my wife, for example. So, I'm not worried about that. I know they'll pick it up quickly. But I think going back to the topic of this show, or one of them, is one of the best things we can do is actually give our kids an experience of what it's like to be off the grid. One of the things we do as a family every year is we take a multi-day river trip. Rafting trip. And these are, you know, they could be 4 nights, 5 nights, and they're usually in very deep wilderness environments. Like, we've done the Salmon River, we've done the Green River in Utah, the Yampa, the Rogue, like, you know, several other rivers, and they're all way off the grid. Like, there is no— again, for now, there is no— No way to connect to the internet. And it's kind of a village-like environment. Like, you're rafting in the day, floating down the river on a paddleboard and kayak. You're with a group of people that you didn't know usually to start, but you get to know each other. And then you're like, they're cooking on the side of the river. You set up camp, play games, hang out. It's a kind of quality of spending time together with other people that is so rare now in this environment. And usually by the end of the trip, the kids are like super bonded and close. They're having a great time. And almost always, I remember that, I'll never forget it. After one of the trips a couple of years ago, my daughter said, Dad, I don't want to leave the river. And I was just like, oh, this is mission accomplished. Like, this is it. Like, she felt that experience deeply of what it's like to be just so connected to herself, connected to nature, and connected to the people around her. And as alluring as all of the devices are, like she got on a visceral sensory level that that was something she wanted more of, you know, being that quality of connection was way better than what she gets on a device. So I think exposing our kids to that is maybe one of the best things that we can do as parents.

Yeah, it's so important. And I think it's great that you and your wife are on the same page as far as that goes. You know, I'm divorced now. And so that's been a little bit of a challenge in trying to be on the same page when it comes to access to devices and how much and enforcing going on different trips and things like that where I think it would be to their benefit. And so there's just a little bit of a different parental philosophy around some of this. So that can make it a bit more challenging at times.

Yeah.

So that's been a balancing act of trying to lead by example and showing, hey, I love doing these things. You guys should come too. And let's go spend time in nature or go camping.

Yeah.

And disconnecting. So one of the things I do with my sons, so I have 6 kids and my oldest is 18 and my youngest is 9 and my 2 boys and 4 girls. And my 2 boys, I've taken them hunting every year since they were each 5 years old. And so back in Kentucky where I'm from, I own property back there still. And my brothers and I and our sons and our father would come out and so, and we do a hunting trip in November of every year. So, we've got a cabin out there. And so, we're all hunting and sitting around the campfire and grilling meat and just enjoying being in each other's company. And yet, we have cell phone access, but we're limiting it severely, really not on our phones and stuff that much. And so, it's more just being in nature. And it's our favorite week of the year. It's like I look forward to that more than Christmas every year. And so, my boys do as well. And so I don't do the same amount with the girls as with the boys because they are the ones that tend to want to do it more. But I do take them out there some as well and try to encourage them to spend as much time in nature as possible because to your point, like on the whitewater rafting trip, the more time you can spend there and just disconnecting, and then it is building that appreciation that they can take with them in everything that they do in life. Kind of like when you plant those seeds early and whether that's skiing or wakesurfing or hunting or rafting, then that's something that they can use no matter what. And I think that's just going to lead for a better, more fulfilling life.

Absolutely, 100%. My daughter is— she's a very passionate equestrian now. She's got— when we moved to Utah, I don't know if I even told you this, Seth, she got really into riding horses and is now competing as an eventer, which is like Cool. For cross-country dressage. And so she spends a big chunk of her time outside riding horses, interacting, taking care of the horses, shoveling horse poop out of the stalls and cleaning the stalls. And, you know, that kind of— I'm so happy that she has gotten into this because, like, I see so many of her peers, especially teenage girls, just all spending almost all their time inside on devices, on Instagram, TikTok, social media, and not having that connection with, number one, with outdoors and outdoor environment, but number two, with a physical activity that is, you know, so health-promoting. So again, I mean, every kid's going to be different. Of course, not everyone's gonna be drawn to the outdoors to the same degree or drawn to physical activities outside, but outdoor activities can be a great way of getting kids interested in nature. Maybe they might not enjoy camping, but maybe they might enjoy mountain biking or paddleboarding or something like that. So yeah, I think it's a great way to give them a lifelong appreciation of nature.

Yeah, I totally agree. When I look back on my own life and as a kid growing up, my favorite memory with my father was the first time he took me camping. I think I was 7 years old and I was going to join Cub Scouts. And so they had like a camping trip and stuff planned. And he's like, well, before you go camping with a group or with friends or whatever, I'm going to take you first. And so my dad, he grew up out in the country and he was in the military and stuff, but he never really liked— he liked more the creature comforts. I think because he grew up kind of a harder life. They didn't have indoor plumbing until he was in, I think, high school or college. So they had an outhouse growing up in like kind of southeastern Kentucky. And so growing up that way, he could appreciate it but then didn't want to do that. So, but he was like, he kind of made that sacrifice, and I'm sure he hated the trip, but it's still one of my favorite memories with him to this day. And I think that definitely instilled my love of camping and nature, just being out there with him camping on a lake and fishing and cooking hot dogs over an open fire and marshmallows and all those. It's those little things. And my kids love that because I've instilled that in them from an early age as well. And so I think it's planting those seeds from a very early age, just whether that's health, whether that's the food we're eating, whether that's spending more time in nature, whether that's doing harder things and creating that resilience muscle. I think that's really important.

Absolutely. Well, Seth, really enjoyed the conversation. Where can people find more about what you're up to, wellness and Rewild?

Thanks, Chris. Yeah, I've really enjoyed this too. My personal website is just sethspears.com and I have everything linked there. But I'm on Instagram @spearsmarketing and then wellness.com, W-E-L-L-N-E-S-S-E, and rewildgear.com as well.

Awesome. Thanks again. Pleasure to talk to you and let's do it again soon.

Yes, indeed. Have a great one.

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Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time.

Thanks for listening.