Ep 43: Adam Gall on Timber to Table & Guiding Hunts

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to the Adventure Welcome to the Nature Made Podcast, brought to you by Rewild Gear. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Adam Gall. Adam is the owner and founder of Timber to Table Guide Service and Dark Timber Outfitters in Hotchkiss, Colorado, which he started with his wife Anastasia back in 2015. They have 2 daughters, and he is formerly both a firefighter, a wolf biologist, and a teacher. He's also very involved in state wildlife conservation efforts with the Colorado Parks and Wildlife and Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. Adam, welcome to the show. How are you this morning?

Good. Yeah, thank you very much for having me on.

Yeah, wonderful. Well, I'm so glad we get to chat. I heard about Timber to Table probably a couple years ago. I think I might've heard you on a podcast or saw it mentioned in 2% for Conservation, or maybe it was Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. I can't remember for sure. And I was just really fascinated by what you're doing as far as your guiding service, because it seems so different than most of the others, focusing on the meat and just really giving a whole experience as far as like the food side of it. And I find that fascinating. And I'm kind of a foodie myself and a big hunter. And so I'd love to just kind of hear your story and some of the adventures and how you got into guiding.

Yeah. Do you want— I guess, do you want to hear how Timbrey Table came to be?

Yeah, let's, let's start with, let's start with your background story, how you got into, into guiding to begin with and ended up forming Timber to Table.

Sure. It would probably start— I used to live in Idaho before being here in Colorado where we are now. And I kind of can remember a bit of an epiphany moment with guiding where I took a friend of mine out I knew there was some elk there. I wasn't hunting personally, but he had a license, and so we went out one morning, took him into this spot, got on the elk. And while, uh, we did not end up killing anything that morning, seeing his reaction as far as Me getting him into a spot, getting him set up. Here's where he needs to be. It was just kind of this light bulb moment. It was like, wow, this is, this is kind of cool. Like, I'm not hunting, but I'm sort of living vicariously through the hunter. So that was sort of where a guiding light bulb went off. And then from, from there, went down to Colorado where we are now, um, got some jobs with various outfitters and noticed certain things that they were or were not doing from a business standpoint, even from a hunting standpoint, that I sort of made mental notes on as far as like If this were my show, I don't know if I'd be doing it this way, or I might think about running things differently. And finally it got to a point where I was like, I need to shut up and put my money where my mouth is. My wife and I talked about it and kind of sorted through some options as far as what would work for us as a family as well as professionally. She has a background in food and butchering. She's a really good butcher. She worked at a game processing place here in the town that we lived in, so she had a really solid background there. And then of course I had the education and hunting background, so we tried to merge those 2 things, and that's how Timber to Table came to be.

Oh cool, yeah, kind of the best of both worlds, huh?

That's what we were shooting for. Yeah, no pun intended.

That's great. So did you grow up hunting, Adam?

Yeah, my family didn't hunt. My best friend growing up in Michigan, which is where I was born, my best friend's dad is really the one that I can kind of point to as far as getting into fishing and camping and hunting. taking me out. I'd have to give acknowledgement to my parents as well because they let me go every weekend basically, uh, with my friend's dad. But yeah, Chris Smith was the name of my friend's dad. I would kind of point to him as someone who got me into it.

How old were you? How old were you the first time that he took you out to go hunting?

I would say, gosh, middle school age, so probably like 12, 13, 14, somewhere in there. Yeah, cool.

And just got the bug from there, eh?

For sure, yeah. And it started more with fishing and camping, and then that Clicked and resonated with me for sure. And then they asked, hey, do you want to go rabbit hunting and then pheasant hunting and deer hunting? It's like, yes, yes, and yes.

It's funny how once you start, it just kind of gets in your blood and you're like, oh, this is amazing, so much fun just being out in nature.

Yeah, I think some people, you just know it, it clicks with you, whether it's hunting or Or riding a bike or writing or whatever the passion might be. I guess if you're lucky, you know it when it happens, and then you don't look back. You just kind of stick with it. It becomes part of who you are.

Yeah, for sure. So I'd like to learn a little bit more about just the guiding services that you, that you provide in general. So you started basically, you took a friend out And just thought, hey, kind of like a light bulb moment of, I would do this differently, or just seeing that, that kind of light in his eyes, um, take, um, going after an animal. So what kind of, um, what was that process like? Because, you know, starting a business can always be challenging, and you go from something that you're passionate about to something that it can kind of become a job. How do you balance that out with your love for hunting, um, and providing for your family? But letting it not just overtake your life so it just becomes a drudge.

Yeah, that's a good question. The— I guess to go back to the first part of your question, I worked with like 2 or 3 different outfitters, um, before Timber to Table came to be. So that's really where I got my guiding experience and guiding shops, if you will, and then started Timber to Table. We did that for about 1 year, and that was strictly private land, late season cow elk hunts for managers.

Hmm.

And that still is mostly what Timber to Table is, but what we saw after about a year was the demand for those hunts was far greater than what we were able to provide with our current setup. And so that's where we looked into growing it and looking for a public hunting permit where we could do what I would call more traditional guided elk hunts, where you're out on public land and mostly focused on bull elk. And that's where now the bulk of our business is, simply because there's just more opportunity. The public land affords you a greater area to operate. So to answer your question that you're getting at, as far as the balance, uh, we've been doing those late season cow hunts as well as the public land hunts with our sister operation, Dark Chamber Outfitters.

Okay.

I think this will be our 6th Yeah. And I'm now at a point where I can kind of adjust the guide schedule to where I'm not burning myself out. I used to guide the entire archery season, all, all 3 or 4 rifle seasons plus late season cutout hunts, and that was way— it just became too much. I was missing my kids. I was— my wife wasn't happy with that, so Uh, now we just do a few weeks in archery. I take some time off. I just try to take more breaks, I guess. So I'm recharging the batteries. I'm home, I can see my girls and try to structure the business that way. So far it's working. So I hope I'm answering your question.

Yeah, no, I think that's great. You know, trying to find that work-life balance can always be challenging, and especially when you're talking such a, a rigorous schedule during the fall hunting season. Um, so I know that's That can definitely be challenging too.

It's feast or famine.

Yeah.

It's make hay while the sun shines.

Yeah, for sure. Tell me how the business has grown over the years, especially with such a renaissance of kind of both DIY Western-style hunts and hiring guides, and even looking more at the food side of it, you know, with shows like Meat Eater and Randy Newberg and others that are really popularizing this. How has that affected your business and What changes have you seen because of that?

I'll start with Randy and Steve because they've actually been really helpful as far as giving our businesses some mention, and Ryan Callahan as well. They've been great, which is— I feel lucky for that. And yeah, I think you're right in terms of the There's been a little bit of a pendulum swing or reawakening as far as, you know, at the end of the day, hunting is about food, procuring meat. Um, and I think that's always been present, but maybe got overshadowed with the quest for antlers or shooting a big buck or a big bull, which is fine. But I think the food aspect of it has come back into the spotlight as well, which I think is great. Those guys have certainly helped, I guess, highlight that and put it back in the spotlight. As far as our business personally, I don't— I'm trying to grow up it. We're still a little bit in the same situation as that first Yeah. The first year where the demand for the hunts is greater than what I can supply. I simply don't have public land permit area. I don't have the staff to take on all the hunt requests that we're getting, which is a good problem to have from a business standpoint, but it's still a problem when you're trying to run a business. So Trying to grow it, but that's tricky. The staffing, like you mentioned, that opens a whole new can of worms, which in this day and age is— I don't know of anyone that's not short-staffed in any arena of work. So I got to be careful there. It's easy to say, well, we're going to grow the business, and then you got to find 2 more cooks and 4 more guys. That's seasonal work, so not everyone can just quit their construction job or quit their regular work to come drive for Adam for a week or two. So it's definitely tricky trying to find that balance.

Yeah, that's a great point. One of the things that I really like that you're doing is that focus on the food side. And from— I'd like to learn a little bit more about that because from what I understand is that You guys really focus on showing how to butcher the meat, how to prepare it, and really go deep on that, as opposed to we're just going to go out and get the biggest horns that we can, which nothing wrong with that. I mean, they eat just as well as a cow elk will, but when you change the focus, just these are meat hunts specifically, and if we get a bull, great, we get a cow, great, but we're going to use every little aspect. So tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah, those are the tip-of-the-table hunts that we originally started with. Kind of like I alluded to at the start of our conversation, that stemmed from the fact that my wife was really a big advocate for non-anonymous. And we saw that there was sort of— or we thought that there could be an opportunity with the growing demographic of hunters that are interested strictly in the food. And that was more the— it seemed like the newer hunters, I guess. And so with those hunts, as you said, we really try to put the focus on the education and food stuff. So with me in the field guiding, I try to teach hunting ethics, animal behavior, Tracking, as much as I can give to the hunters with respect to help in the field. And then once, if they're able to kill something, then I'll go through the animal as far as gutting it, quartering it, handling it on the mountain, and getting it out. And once we've done that, that with the timber-to-table hunts, that's where my wife takes over. We work with the hunter directly in the barn, basically after the meat's hung for a day or two, as long as we can hang it before they have to leave. And literally just basically do a custom processing job with them where she goes through all the cuts, explains various options with cuts. It gets pretty detailed on it, which is A lot of information, um, to pack in. But a lot of times with those hunts, that's more what people are looking for. It's not so much they want to kill an elk, it's, hey, I want to learn about the meat and what I can do with it. Which I find really cool because hunting is sort of a conduit, but it's not necessarily Why the people are there and so motivated. It's the food.

Yeah.

Which I think is kind of cool.

So growing up in Michigan, obviously that's big whitetail country, um, the same as like I grew up in Kentucky and same. Um, how would you describe the difference as far as the attitudes around hunting in Michigan as opposed to Colorado? Obviously species are a little bit different. It sounds like you're primarily hunting elk in Colorado and, you know, mostly whitetail deer in Michigan, but just overall the, the difference in attitudes between the different types of hunters, say Midwest or East Coast hunters versus, um, versus West Coast or Rocky Mountain type hunters.

Yeah, it's an interesting question. Uh, I guess a couple things come to mind. The first one is, to me, hunting— whether you're hunting in the Midwest is like Steeped in the blood of people from, from those states. And that's not to downplay other regions in the U.S., but it just seems to me like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan— there's a lot of those folks that come out west to hunt elk simply because they, they just love to hunt. Um, so I think before I would say differences, I would say that's a commonality that I've seen And plus I'm from Michigan, but I think there's an ingrained love of hunting to begin with. As far as differences, I think something that I hear a lot from hunters coming from other places is just the scale of the landscape. You know, as you and I kind of talked earlier, You can consistently and successfully hunt whitetail on 20 to 30 to 40 acres of good habitat. Elk, you need hundreds of thousands of acres to be able to hunt them. And so, and then you factor in mountains and canyons and huge swaths of public land at a high elevation. That just adds some dynamics to things that people from other regions aren't necessarily used to. And some are unfazed by it and they're excited and into it, you know, they're blown away by it. Others are like, you know, I'm comfortable with my little 100-yard walk to my tree stand and that's where I sit and that's what I like to do. And that's fine. But that's probably one of the bigger things that I've noticed is Just adapting to the scale.

Sure.

Hunting in the mountains.

And obviously the preparation is quite a bit different too. The amount of scouting and the, the vast expanse of scouting that's needed for elk hunting is very different. I'd like to hear a little bit about what that process is like for you. I mean, does that go on all year, or how much in advance before the season opens?

It depends. Uh, the over-the-counter hunts, I don't do a ton of scouting, um, mostly because I kind of know where the elk are going to be, um, and I try not to mess with them, I guess, just let them do their thing. And plus, once the hunting season begins and more hunters are on the landscape, you know, where you saw that bull yesterday may not be where he is anymore because he got bombed here, or he got shot. So as far as scouting, I don't spend a ton of time over the counter country. On the limited license side of where I can— or where I'm permitted to guide, I definitely spend some time. I still know where the elk are going to be, but that's more a situation where what kind of bulls are in there. Because on the limited side, you usually have hunters that aren't just going to shoot the first legal bull they see. They're looking for a more mature and more, more developed antlers, etc. So that's what it's like. Okay, I've seen a good 6-point bull in this drainage, and there's a couple over here, and that's sort of what our view Preseason is looking with a— is combing it with a finer-tooth comb. Yeah, if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, that does. Thanks for that. Adam, why is nature and the outdoors so important to you? I know you're really big into conservation and just kind of helping to protect some of those wild spaces, but I'd love to hear what the impetus is there, why, why you find it so important.

Yeah, that's a good question. I'll answer it 2 ways. The first is personally, because being outside has always just been, I guess to put it really bluntly, a really enjoyable thing for me. I've always loved it, whether it's canoeing along a little lake in Michigan or going on a hike in the mountains of Idaho or Colorado or Montana. I love it, you know, so it makes me feel good. It's good for me. It's real. It's not staring at a computer or staring at you.

Like we're doing right now.

Yeah, which, you know, it's, it's a balance. It is. That's where my love is. I love wildlife, whether it's cutthroat trout Mm-hmm. Or seeing a cool bird of prey or elk. I love all of it. Not to sound like a granola tree-hugging crunchy person, but, um, yeah, that's the truth. Trees are cool, plants are cool, all that stuff. So I love it from that standpoint. The second way I would answer that question is I'm a dad. I've got A 5-year-old and a 9-year-old. And now I see all that stuff that I've gotten to do as something that I need to now try to be vocal about and stress the importance of keeping nature accessible and available to everybody else, including later generations, so they have the same opportunities that you did. growing up and that I did growing up. And as more and more people are on this planet and there's increasing pressure on the resource, it becomes all that much more important for that same reason. I want my girls to have the same opportunities that I did, which have given me a really blessed life, I think. Yes, there's been a lot of work and There's been earning it, so to speak, and some sacrifices. But at the same time, I wouldn't trade it for anything. And I don't want to pigeonhole them. It's not like they got to start driving elephants maybe as soon as they're old enough to pack a hindquarter. But at the same time, if they want to, or they want to pursue something in the outdoors as far as a career or hobby, I want them to be able to do that. So protecting the opportunity To love nature is really important.

How are you instilling that same love of the outdoors, of nature, and of hunting into your own children?

Try to get them out as much as possible. Where we live is a pretty rural area, so it's a little bit easier than, say, someone who's living in the heart of a city or something like that. So yeah, we try to just go on walks as a family. I point out stuff all the time as far as tracks, sign, a wallow, where bulls rub the tree, where bucks rub the tree. And my 9-year-old has started to sit with me. When I have time for her, she'll come and sit. And she's been with me the last few years when I've shot a buck for the freezer. Which is awesome. It's honestly, I look forward to that, eating them, hunting a critter more than just about any other hunt I do. So, so yeah, that, I think that would be the short answer. Just try to expose them to as much in a comfortable way as possible. I'm not taking them on death marches, and as soon as they see a revolver, they're heading out. with. Um, but I try to introduce them to a lot of things, get them on the river, camp out on the river. Yeah, whatever the opportunity. Nice.

Yeah, I think that's great. Now, you kind of alluded to it earlier, just as far as the changes in the landscape with more pressure from people expansion. Um, I'm curious your thoughts as far as How, how that's affecting both your business, both with guiding and just with protecting the environment, those wild places, as well as, you know, kind of that urban sprawl continues to grow and there's more people that are in the backcountry that are hunting and that it's affecting wildlife. And just even with the climate change, with more wildfires and the global, global temperature heating up, what are your thoughts there?

Oh, that's a big question. Um, I think I would start with, uh, just in terms of increasing pressure on the resources. And in this conversation, obviously, I'll kind of keep it focused on health just because that's what I deal with the most. So my answer there in terms of dealing pressure is hopefully for state agencies that are responsible for managing those resources can adapt and shift management strategies for hunting regulations and license allocations and all that stuff accordingly to take care of the resource and not just make money. And that gets into some fine line walking, I guess, because they don't make money selling licenses, they can't operate. So it's not like you can just shut it down to protect or conserve the resource. But at the same time, just being cognizant, like, hey, we're seeing a lot more hunters in this area than we ever have.

Yeah.

We need to think about different things from a licensing standpoint, reducing opportunity, which not everyone wants to hear, and those are hard conversations, but that's the reality. Beyond that, I guess scaling out to the bigger landscape as far as the continuing drought or aridification, they're starting to call them out here where we live. There's just less water with more people, the continuing pressure on the landscapes. That requires, I guess, maybe at the Forest Service level or public land management agencies to start to take that into consideration with their management plans. In terms of how they're logging or not logging, recreational impacts, and walking dogs, mountain biking, all that stuff. It might sound trivial, but when you ramp it up to the scale that some places are seeing out here, it's— places are being loved to death. And of course, that has ripple effects on wildlife. A really prime example that gets mentioned a lot Yeah. That is over in the Eagle Vale area in central Colorado. That elk herd has declined, I believe, close to 60% in the last decade. And the biologists there have been tracking really diligently. And to boil it all down, it comes down to too much recreation. You got mountain bikers and hikers and all these people that are on the landscape year-round And it's impacting calving grounds. And so calf survival is really low. And when you start to add that on year after year, the herd's going to suffer. And that's what's happening. So yeah. So anyways, um, it's, it's a big complicated question, but basically on top of the monitoring and management, being able to act on it. I guess the other thing I put in there because it's super important is educating the public. There's so many people moving out west right now that really don't understand public lands and how they, how they function and the other animals that are using it and really depend on migration corridors and having winter range. So anyway, that's going off the deep end. Yeah, it's a very complicated topic.

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense because on the one hand, we want people to be in nature, in the outdoors, to have recreational opportunities. However, I mean, that's healthy for us. Um, however, there is that downside like you're talking about where it is affecting the wildlife and their migration patterns, um, and where they're bedding and Raising their young and stuff like that.

So, um, yeah, I think it can get— it can all get done. You know, everybody can have their cake and eat it too, is what I guess I'd like to think. And the way we can do that, or my thoughts on it, are— I guess focus is on people's willingness to compromise. Hunters have set seasons. We don't get to go out and shoot elk all year long, which is, which is a good thing. Likewise, we may need to start thinking about trail closures to hikers and people that are walking their dogs or want to ride their bike. Because hey, this mule deer herd winters here. This is the only place they have to survive. So you guys can ride your bikes in here all summer long. But starting October 1st, you're not going to be able to, and here's why. And so trying to give everybody a little bit, but also be willing to sacrifice a little bit so you can kind of see some greater good for all the user groups.

I think that would entail a lot of education.

Yes.

Probably a lot of pushback as well. I think it's a great idea. Probably just a lot of education needed just to get people talking about that because, you know, at times—

And most people— and I think most people want to do good, you know. They don't want to have negative impacts on places that they love. But as you just said, getting them to understand here's why this is a negative impact, and if we can just modify that behavior, most people I think are willing to Would you say that that is one of the biggest issues or threats to conservation today? Humans?

Well, humans and just like the expansion of recreational areas and just more people on the landscape, um, or something else?

No, I think it is for sure. I mean, you can throw in, you know, a warming climate or climate change, however you want to There's definitely impacts that we're starting to see there. But at the end of the day, it's— I think it's people. There's more people on the landscape putting pressure on it in ways that haven't been seen before.

Sure. You know, climate change, global warming, all that can be really controversial in some circles. Um, I'd like to get your opinion on it as someone who is on the landscape daily and is so much more in touch with the natural world than a lot of others are. It's really easy to armchair quarterback when you're sitting in an office in New York or San Francisco or whatever and talking about these things, but it's very different when you're actually in nature every single day and seeing that. So, I'd love to just get your take and what you're seeing when it comes to those issues.

Yeah. And, I'm not a weather expert by any stretch or climate expert. I do think it's changing. I'm not a denier, to cut to the chase on that. I'm a former high school science teacher, so I believe in data. I don't think people are making stuff up, you know, from a scientific standpoint. I think there's evidence. I used to be in fire. Some of my best friends are still in fire at the upper ends of managing wildfire on public lands in the West, and we talk about it with some regularity. And their answers are the same in that, hey, even just in the last 25 years, the extremity of fires and how fires have done and It's not normal. And there's, you know, obviously many layers that contribute to that, but in a nutshell, that's what they're seeing, and I'm not going to question that. They're fighting them and living in them. So I think that's an indicator. Where we live, personally, it's, it's just hotter and drier every year. And whether you want to call it climate change or not, at the end of the day, there's less water. Glaciers are melting and there's less water. I don't care what you want to call it, but those are problems. Um, and there's more people needing the water. So yeah, so trying to figure out how to intelligently deal with that, and that's going on right now. Colorado River Basin Pact, where these 7 states in the Southwest are trying to divvy up water that doesn't exist under the previous pact. There were some big mistakes made there, and now that's having ramifications on us presently. So I don't have a great answer as far as what to do other than just trying to be more efficient and finding better solutions for using the resources that we have. that we do have because they're hitting us. Yeah.

Well, I think just bringing awareness to it and discussing, that's at least a start. I mean, you can't make a change until you're at least aware that a change needs to happen. So whatever that change may be, because I don't know that we—

Well, yeah. And having— not to take a dive off the deep end, but having leaders that are willing to take what's potentially a difficult stance for the betterment of the resource and for the longevity of not just us but all the other critters and living beings that are existing on this landscape with us. We don't live in a vacuum.

For sure. I mean, that's true leadership, you know, just Taking ownership and having those hard conversations, even if it's not necessarily going to support you or your party.

Well, yeah, and it gets back to my comment earlier about, you know, recreational use, being willing to compromise. We live in a country right now where compromise is darn near unheard of and hard to come by. So Getting that to, uh, change would sure help. I agree. Yeah.

Adam, what's the biggest life lesson that nature and the outdoors has taught you over the years?

Uh, humility. Yeah, anybody that hunts is going to get humbled over and over and over. And so yeah, being humble and I think being respectful. Um, being respectful of the animals you pursue and the meat that they provide you, respectful of the, the land and water that we have access to. Um, yeah, you know, compromise being a good person, being kind. So, but yeah, uh, Humility and respect are definitely 2 things that pop into my head.

Are you able to impart any of those lessons to the clients that you're guiding?

I sure try to. Some of that's up to them, obviously, and the lens that they see— yeah, the lens they see the world through. But yeah, for sure, in our hunts, I'm pretty blunt. You have people as far as like, hey, I realize you just paid me a pretty significant chunk of money to take you on an elk hunt and guide you. You're taking time off work, you're taking time away from family, you've come a long ways, you've spent a lot of money, and we may not see or hear an elk in the next 5 days. You know, that stuff's out of my control. I'm gonna work really hard You try to be smart, but that's how it goes. And I try to tell people that. So I set a really low bar.

Managing expectations.

Exactly. And then that way, if they see elk or they kill one, it's like, wow, look at that, this is great. But yeah, I try to impart the humility and respect through our hunters. Yeah, that's great.

Adam, I'd love to hear just one of your favorite stories while guiding, and— or maybe just while you're hunting yourself.

Yeah, hunting. But probably one of the more memorable hunts for me is, um, the one that just pops into mind is just the first elk I killed, um, like me personally. I was by myself. I bow hunt. Bow hunting elk is hard. It took me years before I finally killed one with my bow. And it wasn't any— it wasn't a magnificent bull or anything like that, but it was a great hunt in a beautiful spot by myself. And I guess a few things that I remember were stalking up on the bull. It had rained, so really quiet walking. And I remember being so excited. This bull's by himself. He was feeding. The wind was in my favor. The ground was so soft and hard. Quiet. And I just remember thinking, everything is going my way right now. And with elk hunting, that doesn't always— it's like 9 out of 10 things can be going your way, but then that 10th thing screws you.

Yeah.

But it all came together. And I remember looking at a tree and saying, if I can get to that tree, that's where I'm going to draw my bow. I'll be in range where I feel comfortable to shoot. And I got to that tree, drew, the bull quartered away, like opened up his vitals really nicely. I made it, I made a great shot. He died within like 30 yards. I remember hearing the crash when he fell down, and I'm not gonna lie, Seth, I started crying. I was so excited, so happy, so relieved. It was, um— You know, for a— not to sound cliché, but like for a kid growing up in Michigan hunting Mrs. Cooney's 80-acre hardwood swamp for whitetails, and then getting to come out to the San Juan Mountains and kill a bull elk with a bow by yourself, it was a real empower— it was a really empowering feeling. It was like, I, I can do anything, you know. Um, if I can do this. Um, so that was a really memorable kind of breakthrough for me, was killing that first elk after a lot of failed opportunities, really humbling moments and lessons learned, which I think today has kind of helped me be a decent guide, actually, because no one has screwed up on elk more than me. So I've learned a lot of lessons. But that was a really memorable one.

I think it's really unfortunate that we often learn more from our failures than our successes, and that kind of helps to guide us moving forward, which, I mean, I guess that's a good thing as well, but sometimes it would be better to learn from others' failures than our own.

Sure.

Adam, what's an adventurous experience that you've had out in the wilderness that you'd never want to experience again?

Oh, I don't know, man. Like, the really bad ones, I guess maybe I've blanked out of my memory. I can remember, uh, there used to be a wolf biologist up in Idaho, and this wasn't necessarily— it wasn't a quote-unquote bad experience, it was just really stupid. Um, I did— we had trapped a wolf. I trapped a wolf. And my job was to put radio collars on these wolves and draw blood and do some data collection on the animals that we trapped. So I was working for the Nez Perce Tribe during the reintroduction period of Idaho's wolf population. I remember I trapped this one wolf and I made out to drug it. Uh, and I, I underdosed it, and so, uh, it came out of its drug-induced state earlier than I wanted it to. Long story short, the wolf took off. It got up and took off, still wearing some of the equipment, namely a muzzle that I had. Over its whole face, which is a problem for the wolf. So I took off running after the wolf to try to get the— and I didn't really know what the hell I was going to do once I caught up with this wolf. It was still a little wheezy from the drugs, and so it would run a little ways and stop, run a little ways and stop. Uh, once I finally caught up to the wolf Snuck up on it, basically, and I tackled it and tried to rip the muzzle off of its head so it was safe, it wouldn't get hung up in a tree branch or something, because it had a rope that was kind of this cord attached to the muzzle that sort of kept it snug. And that's what I was concerned with, because it was going to get hung up. But I remember reaching over to pull that muzzle loose. And I don't have a good way to describe it, but the wolf snapped its head back trying to bite my arm when it saw it reach over. And the speed at which that wolf's jaws snapped, and it came about, you know, literally like an inch from my forearm.

Wow.

And they've got a pretty powerful bite on them.

I've been told.

It would have destroyed my arm. And, uh, once that happened, I kind of dropped back on my knees and got off the wolf and was like, okay, I need to reassess what I'm doing because I was about 6 miles in. You know, something had happened, uh, it would have been a bad deal. But long story short, I Even with that little wrestling match, I was able to get the muzzle off. It hung loose and it slipped off his head, which was the intention. So goal achieved. But as far as like a dumb misadventure thing, that's one that kind of pops into my head. But I would never do that again. It was just an idiotic—

Yeah.

Thing. But it was like the diligence of the job, trying to get the job done. Uh, overrode, uh, common sense.

Gotcha. Well, that's a great story. Speaking of wolves, Adam, um, I'd like to get your take on, uh, on kind of the controversy surrounding them. Um, as you know, I know especially in Colorado where they've been reintroduced, and a lot of other states it's happened a little bit more organically. I know in Colorado it has as well. However, they had the bill that passed, I think it was last year, It was a couple years ago. So they're actually reintroducing them. So as someone with boots on the ground there, just love to get your take and thoughts on all that.

Well, you hit the nail on the head with saying it's controversial. That goes without saying when it comes to wolves, unfortunately. And yes, Colorado, they, they made reintroducing wolves a priority. Which barely passed. If you round it to whole numbers, it was basically a 50-50 split.

Wow.

But by a few, you know, tenths of a percent, basically, it passed. So Colorado is now obligated to reintroduce wolves. By December of 2023 is when the management plan has to be completed, and theoretically wolves need to be on the ground. And there already are wolves here, but those wolves from reintroductions, they don't count. I'm kind of putting that in air quotes. So there's obviously all the usual concerns as far as, well, we're going to kill all the elk. They're gonna kill cattle and sheep. They're gonna grab children from the bus stops and all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of the—

Fearmongering.

Yeah, fearmongering, low-hanging fruit. And there are just that— they kill elk, you know, that's what they do. So there are going to be impacts to ungulate herds. I'm not trying to downplay that at all. I'm concerned about it. I voted no. I'm a former wolf biologist. I think wolves are amazing animals, but as far as having a federal reintroduction, I just don't think that needs to happen. I think letting them come in on their own, which they're already doing, would be a much less divisive approach. And From a social acceptance standpoint, much easier to palate, if you will, for those that don't really want them here in the first place.

Do you think if it happened that organically where they just kind of migrated in as opposed to being reintroduced though, then they wouldn't be protected and so that would have adverse effects there as well? Because I'm always curious where that balance lies.

Yeah, and I'm, I mean, I'm not gonna— well, I'm trying to think. I'm not a huge expert on endangered species stuff, but the wolf populations in the Great Lakes as well as Colorado and a few other states here in the Southwest, they just were delisted. So any wolves coming in, you know, if they didn't have If this proposition hadn't passed, so it's kind of a midpoint at this point, but they would have those protections. Wolves that are out there would have those endangered species protections. So it's in a weird flux right now because the state of Colorado is trying to get— since they've been relisted Under the Endangered Species Act in the state of Colorado. It's creating some, uh, issues because when the proposition that we voted on passed, they weren't on the endangered species list. So now the state of Colorado has to apply. We're trying to get a 10-J management rule placed on Colorado's population, which in a nutshell, it's a section of the Endangered Species Act that allows for more flexible management of the wolf population. We don't know if we're going to be awarded that or not. We're kind of waiting to hear. We're hoping we will, because if a wolf or a wolf pack causes trouble with a livestock operator, Those 10-J rules allow some management flexibility to handle the situation. So I don't know if I'm— I might be falling off the deep end here and not answering the question that you're asking.

No, I think that's helpful for sure. I just like to get different takes on it because it is such an interesting topic and just, you know, the concept of rewilding, which, you know, our company is named after, more to rewild ourselves, but to help animals do that as well. But it also raises complications and additional issues because when, um, when a species has gone extinct from that area, reintroducing them, things have changed and it's not the same as it used to be. So, um, it's not just—

Yeah, I was likening it kind of to a bit of a learning curve. I don't believe Wolves are going to kill all the elk. They're not going to kill all the deer. They're going to kill some for sure, and there's going to be localized impacts on certain herds that are going to require adjusting management strategies. But at the end of the day, I try to stay positive in the sense that, hey, look, they have a place here too. Hopefully we can get a balance between wolf and ungulate populations where we still have hunting opportunities as an economic driver for the state of Colorado, which whether you like hunting or not, at the end of the day, hunting brings in millions and millions of dollars to our state. And I should know the exact number off the top of my head, but I don't. But I can promise you it's massive to the state's economy. And so obviously there's concerns there that if that is diminished, or we got to figure out other ways. And there's the promotion of, you know, hey, when wolves come here, there's going to be wolf tourism. There's going to be new economic opportunities. opportunities that arise from having the wolf on the landscape. I'm slightly dubious and skeptical of that because while those may rise up, there's going to be others that are negatively impacted— outfitters like myself, for example. So there's a give and take there. Like I said, I try to stay open-minded about it. Be flexible, but at the same time, for me to say, oh, I don't care, it's gonna be fine, whatever. If a wolf pack sets up shop in my permitted area, it's going to cause issues.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's a balancing act like anything. I'd like to switch gears for a moment here. Um, being a guide and spending so much time in the outdoors, I'm sure there's equipment that you always have with you. What gear do you always take, take out no matter what that you consider essential?

Yeah, I will answer that question through the guiding lens, if that's okay. For my work, having a decent first aid kit is— the more I guide, the more I think about safety-related stuff. I think when I was younger, And this goes with a lot of things. You just, you kind of take death for granted, I think, or accidents, you know. You don't want them to happen, obviously, but you don't think about them. And I think as you get older— Yeah, maybe, you know. And now I'm a dad and I'm older and all that stuff, so it's like you think more about what could happen. So anyways, first aid, having a way to deal with accidents in my pack is important. But what I do, having a good knife and fire starting stuff for emergencies, those are things that are pretty imperative to me as far as like what's in my backpack. Being able to handle an elk that's dead on the ground and I gotta Get it broken down and hauled off the mountain. And I can go into a very detailed list of what's in my backpack if you want, but as far as the, as far as the basics, it's what I don't leave home with is first aid, fire starter, good knife, a headlamp. And I guess depending on where I'm going, I I do bring my phone, not only for pictures, you know, for success, but, but also to text or communicate if I need to with my guides or my wife or whoever, you know, if there is an emergency. I do have some of those Garmin Mini inReaches for places where there isn't service, it's a dead zone. So yeah, I don't know how in-depth you want me to get, but those are some of the basics that I think are important to have for what I do.

I'd love to hear what companies that you just love, who you feel are doing just an amazing job of their product quality, and that you always tend to reach for and stock in your own pack or encourage clients to as well.

Yeah, as far as what I wear elk hunting with boots, are super important, taking care of your feet. And there's a lot of good boot manufacturers out there that I wear, like Kenotrek boots. They're, they're not cheap, but they're really dependable, solid, durable boots. So I love, I love those for the gears to maintain. From what I wear, I've— since I was a little kid I've always loved wool, and so when merino wool came along, it was like, ooh, sweet, like, you can wear this stuff next to your skin. So First Light, uh, is a clothing manufacturer based out of Idaho, um, and actually Meat Eater owns them now. But, uh, but First Light, I've always been a big fan of them because You know, they were a merino wool-based company at the onset, and that was really appealing to me. And plus, they make good stuff, so that's a company that I really like. But, but again, there's a lot of other really good companies out there, be it for boots or camel clothing or whatever. And then backpacks, it's the same thing. There's a million Good companies. Eberlestock's a good one. Kuiu makes good packs. Mystery Ranch. Uh, what's the other one? Exo Packs. Alps Outdoor. I mean, there's on and on and on. The hunting industry has developed and the technology has gotten so much better. Things are lighter, stronger, carbon fiber frames. I mean, on and on and on. But yeah, those are a handful of companies that— and I'm, you know, I'm not paid by them to say any of that stuff. It's just that's what I wear and what I use.

That's a great start. You mentioned always having a good knife. I'm curious what your go-to is.

Um, I have an old— for a long time I just used the Buck Classic 110 folding knife. I've used that for a really long time. Now I've had that one retired because the tip— I've got several of them and the tips are broken off from digging out elk ivies and stuff. But, uh, I use a Kershaw knife that I really like, and it's not so much the brand, but it's, um, the design of the blade. And what I really look for Working with elk is— I like having the drop point at the tip for skinning purposes, especially running it up the legs. It keeps that tip from catching on connective tissue and stuff like that. So having that drop point and also a nice sweep, a nice belly, again for skinning and kind of breaking And make— being able to make big sweeping cuts when you're quartering that animal, having more surface area on the blade is more efficient. I'm working not as hard because I'm making fewer cuts, and I'm also able to get that meat off the body and cool down quicker. And having a good blade material that holds an edge. And if you don't, taking 30 seconds to run it over the sharpener so you're always working with a sharp blade. You can exhaust yourself cutting up an elk with a dull knife, and that's when things get dangerous and you make a mistake because you, you're sawing on the animal instead of cutting.

Yeah, that makes sense. Adam, as we kind of wrap up here, just a couple quick questions. Um, what— is there a book or books that have impacted your life in a meaningful way?

Oh yeah, there's lots. When I was a kid, and this was like elementary and middle school age, um, and even into high school, I remember reading some books. I was really into Native American history, um, so I remember I'd read a A biography of Tecumseh, the Shawnee chief, um, who lived in the late 18th century. He died in the War of 1812. His biography blew my mind, um, just the foresight that he had as a human being, um, and the leader that he was. But I was also really into the mountain man books. Um, reading about Simon Kenton He was the Ohio River Valley area, kind of in that same time. His lifespan overlapped with Tecumseh's actually quite a bit.

Wow.

And then reading all the books about, you know, the settling of the frontier and the Rocky Mountain West, the fur trappers, Montana and Idaho and Wyoming, that country had just really captivated my imagination. So yeah, I guess a few titles that pop into my head. Frontiersman is a really good one. That was a vibe at the assignment camp. Undaunted Courage, obviously, it was a pretty amazing book by Stephen Ambrose about the Lewis and Clark Expedition. Uh, A Sorrow in Our Hearts, which is the vibe at the Tecumseh. The Nine Mile Wolves was one that really captivated my attention. I think that was when I was in high school. That's a Rick Bass book about the Nine Mile Wolf Pack that came in before reintroduction efforts.

That's a great start. A lot of good books out there.

Probably missing some, but yeah, but yeah, there's a ton of good reads out there. Yeah, obviously lots of good books for sure.

Do you have a favorite podcast?

To be honest, Seth, I don't listen to a lot of podcasts because I don't have time, uh, but, um, I enjoy Backcountry Hunters and Anglers podcast. Hal Herring, who's a great conservation writer and a really good human being, um, he does a great job with that podcasting blast, it's called, with Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. So that's one. I'll try to listen to occasionally, but I'll tell him. A guy named Ed Robertson, he's based out of Colorado Springs. He's got a really interesting one called Mountain Prairie, and he gets a really diverse range of guests on there. A lot of authors, entrepreneurs, people that are connected to Western landscapes primarily. So that's one, and I've actually been on his podcast, which is— so I'm sort of biased in my answer. And then just from a pure checking out standpoint, one I'll listen to every once in a while is called Smartless. Yeah, it's hilarious. I learned about it through Ed Robertson from the Mountain Pray Podcast. He mentioned it, and it's, uh, it's kind of Hollywood stuff, to be honest with you, but it's just like an hour of checking out. And I don't ever have an hour. I'll listen to it like 10 minutes at a time when I'm driving in the truck. But it's hosted by Jason Bateman, the actor, and Will Arnett, um, and then Sean Hayes. So they're all like actors. And they'll just get other actor friends on there, but some of the, some of the segments are hilarious. They just pick on each other and they're really sarcastic, which I appreciate that kind of humor.

Nice. That's a good list too. Adam, what's one piece of advice that you would give to our audience?

Uh, I guess I would reiterate something I think I kind of touched on earlier. Uh, which in this day and age I think is lacking a little bit. And that's just being kind, being good to each other, being willing to listen to the other opinion in an objective way and not judging and pigeonholing everyone. Painting with huge broad brush strokes and understanding that there's nuance and a lot of topics and facets that are impacting us today. Um, so yeah, I guess being kind is something that I think we could all use a little more of. Being— and civility and respect, I think, are a couple things that have just gotten watered down, or people feel they don't need to be anymore, and that is troubling to me. So yeah, kindness, civility, and respect, I think, are a few things I would try to ask people to keep in mind. I'm guilty of it too. I have bad days. Aren't we all? Um, but man, if we could all just ratchet it down a little bit, that might be helpful.

Yes, indeed. I agree. Adam, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate our conversation, and this has been a lot of fun. And where can our audience learn more about you online? And just give a shout out and self-promo here.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, first off, thank you for the opportunity to chat. These are great questions. Good way to— it's early here still, so it's a good way to start my day. So thank you for that and the opportunity to chat with you. As far as people looking me up, I have two websites—one for each of our outfits: timberthetableguideservice.com and darktimberlodge.com. L-O-D-G-E darktimberlodge.com. I am on Instagram, but I'm not a big tech guy. But our Instagram is @timberthetable. We will post occasionally. So that's where people can find me. They can always call me on the phone, 208-691-3014.

Super. Well, we'll be sure to include these resources in the show notes so anyone who's interested in hiring your guiding service or checking out what you have to offer can get in contact with you. Adam, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. And for the rest of you out there, until next time. Stay wild.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.