Ep 45: Paul Lewis on Starting FHF Gear & Joining Meat Eater

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to Welcome to the Adventure Made Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Paul Lewis. Paul is the founder of FHF Gear, one of my personal favorite outdoor equipment brands. He's an avid fly fisherman, bow hunter, and recently retired law enforcement officer and SWAT team leader from Bozeman, Montana. Paul has a Bachelor of Science degree in wildlife management from Montana State University, and he started FHF Gear as a side gig by hand, making gear for himself, teammates, and hunting partners, which eventually turned into a full-time business and was recently acquired by MeatEater, one of our favorite hunting and outdoor adventure shows. So Paul, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate, uh, appreciate you asking me to come over.

Yeah, of course. I'm excited for our conversation today. Um, so this whole episode kind of came about when I was actually in Bozeman about a month ago for, uh, for an archery elk hunt. And, you know, I've been a fan of FHF gear for several years and have spent a lot of money on gear. And so wandered into the store, um, just to check out some of your new harnesses and stuff. And so we got to meet and just kind of hit it off and everything. So I'd love to kind of just get your origin story, Paul, as far as how you started FHF Gear and what brought you into the outdoor world and all of that.

Um, well, it's, uh, something I guess I've kind of told the story a few times, but it's one of those things like I started when I was younger. I just always liked to be outside. I like to fish and hike. I really didn't hunt growing up, and when I came to work for the sheriff's office here, I got to be friends with A few people who were definitely avid outdoorsmen, and they took me on a lot of hunts and were teaching me how to fly fish. And it just, you know, one thing led to another. And a lot of my coworkers, it was a way that we could really blow off steam just to get outside. Being in law enforcement, it was a time of the year that we really looked forward to just disconnecting and— Being in the woods. So, really got my interest up in both fishing and hunting. And then, as a side gig, when I had kids, I was looking for something to do, kind of creative outlet when I was stuck at home with little kids. I was everything from doing woodworking to being a cop with no money. I figured I could make some of my own gear. So that led me to making— actually, a lot of my friends had— I'll back up. I actually had a brown vest that I was looking for. Like, I had made a work vest out of it because the sheriff's office uniform was brown. The sheriff told us we couldn't wear those anymore, but I really liked the vest, so I wanted to cover the the badge that I had glued onto it. So I was looking for brown Velcro one day and came across a website that told me how to make something, a tactical belt. And I wanted a tactical belt and they were too expensive for me to buy, so I decided I would try and make one. And that just led me to kind of making more and more gear and making gear for teammates and— hunting buddies and got into the hunting side because Mystery Ranch is here in Bozeman. A lot of my hunting friends were using Mystery Ranch packs and there was no good way to attach a bear spray holster to it. Hmm. And so I made a MOLLE-compatible bear spray holster, which was kind of the first one out there. And that, that led to more and more things and just different things making for friends and hunting buddies. And, you know, that I was hoping to make enough to just to pay for materials so I could kind of keep the hobby up. I really never planned on it being a business. And it got to the point where I started getting custom orders and people were interested. And being in Bozeman with the Jason Matsingers, Randy Newberg, Ranella's connection to Bozeman, just the whole outdoor community here. It really just kind of grew and grew. And my name completely was word of mouth. I didn't do any advertising. And I was just making custom gear for people. And at one point, I got to be about 18 months backed up in custom orders. You know, still full-time job, just doing this in the evening and weekends when I wasn't hunting. And that led me to kind of realize that some of these standard products that I was making a lot of the time, I could just outsource and have somebody sew them for me so that I wasn't making them one by one. Because previously I was— you could, you could order, you know, if you wanted a pink bino harness with purple thread, you know, I would tool it up and make it happen. Not that I ever made one of those, but you could have. And it got to the point where I realized, you know, if I actually had somebody making, you know, the most common colorways, then maybe it would free up some of my time. So yeah, that's kind of how it got started, and just one thing grew into another. I never did do any advertising until I retired. And then we started doing some advertising, but other than that, it just really was kind of word of mouth and online forums. And I started a Facebook page and that kind of stuff, but that was about it.

So this was really just an accidental business, started as a hobby that just turned into an amazing gear company?

Yeah, 100%.

When was— what year was it that you started doing this, just either for yourself, or when you first started making that vest?

I had to look back for receipts. The first time I started ordering material was late 2008. So 2008, 2009, it was, you know, just kind of starting out. I think maybe that's when I got a logo right in there though.

And then when did you realize that it had the makings of a business? When people were actually coming to you and wanting to place an order?

Um, I think relatively early on when I was Getting all these orders and emails, you know, every day I'd have an email for somebody wanting to have something made. And I had a lot of friends in the military as well, so we were doing a lot of like— Afghanistan was going strong, and so I was sending a lot of stuff over to SF guys and EOD groups, you know, just to send over there for custom gear requests. And The word just spread amongst both the tactical side, my SWAT connections around the state, and then the hunting community around here. It just really was kind of an endless supply of customers by accident.

Yeah, so it really started primarily in the tactical side, and then it seems like it's gone more into the hunting side primarily.

Yeah, definitely had roots in the tactical side, and that's where I kind of really started. And even a lot of the construction techniques I still use You know, were built around the tactical side and, and those things that I started. But, you know, it was one of those things for me, you know, I like to hunt. And again, being a cheap cop, I wanted to buy gear that I could use in, in both a tactical callout as well as during hunting season. And so I would make things to try and be dual use or, you know, useful in more than one situation. If I If I bought it, I wanted to use it more than, you know, a month a year.

Sure. That makes a lot of sense. So you were actually physically sewing all these products by yourself?

I was, yeah, completely. I still do all of the sample sewing and market samples and the initial prototyping myself, but I don't do the production runs anymore, which is nice.

What is that creative process like when you're— when you come up with a new idea for a new piece of gear or maybe you're just iterating on something that's already So for me now, typically what I'll do is come up with some sort of sketch or even just—

not even a sketch, just a kind of bullet-pointed list of these are the features I want it to be and I want it to have and then the sizes I want it to be. And I'll sit down and I use a program on my computer and kind of draw it up how I think it should work and a lot of times during that process, I'll actually— Realize, you know, there's an empty spot on this pattern. It'd be a good spot for a, you know, a webbing loop or a pocket or something, you know. So it oftentimes changes during the design process. And then I can cut out the pattern, move that over to the sewing machine, and actually do kind of a proof of concept. And many times, you know, the first one doesn't turn out real well, or it's too big or too small, or, you know, I just realize it's not going to work as it is. So I'll have to change it, or during that sewing process I'll realize, you know, this would work better as a single piece, or if I did 2 pieces I could stuff padding in between layers more easily. And, you know, it's just kind of a, I would say, very kind of fluid process, I guess, start to finish. In fact, our The ops people at First Light that handle a lot of our purchase order placement end up, I think, getting frustrated with me because I'll have ideas right at the end. We're across the finish line. I'm like, wait, I have a better way to make that, which changes everything.

Then what is that testing process like from conceptualization to sewing it to actually putting it out in the field for testing?

So we do most of the testing ourselves. We're all— everybody here is avid outdoorsmen. So typically I will make, make all those initial prototypes and test products, and then we get it out amongst the group and then come back and make changes. Or, you know, oftentimes I'll have the first 5 or 6 made and none of them are the same because every time I've come up with a better way to make it or I want to try a different option to see which one works better. So we just run it. You know, we're outside all the time hiking or what, you know, hunting season or not, we're usually out horn hunting or turkey hunting or, you know, doing something outside. And so we just kind of test it ourselves. Once we get to a point we feel pretty comfortable with it, then either I'll make a few more for other people to test, outside friends, um, You know, people within the Meat Eater organization, you know, get their input. And then, so we're trying to get to a point where we'll have maybe 20 of them made at production once we're pretty finalized. And then from there, you know, get those 20 out. And typically by then, it's, it's pretty well dialed in. But even the, the last bino harness we made, you know, that first batch, I think we had 50 of them made, went out to initial influencers and different people. Um, by the time we got feedback, we were rolling right into production, but we were already finding things that we wanted to do to kind of fine-tune the design. So we did change a couple of things right at the end. Um, you know, and that affects cost and Timing, you know, sometimes you're like, we need to change a material and then we have to order things differently. But for the most part, by the time we do those, those bigger runs of production, we're pretty well dialed in. We just do a lot of, a lot of in-house testing.

Got it. What has changed as far as just these kind of business decisions when it comes to either testing or hitting economies of scale, or even just the materials that you're using, just kind of the general business processes? from when you were a sole proprietor just running it yourself and since the MeatEater acquisition?

They've had very little input on the actual design process or even ideation. They don't tell me what to make. I have a little more input from people. Steve will call up and say, hey, I want a bag that does this. I usually try and accommodate him. We've had other folks. Ryan Callahan called and wanted a shotgun shell organizer. I made one of those. But in reality, the design process really hasn't changed. What has been a big struggle for me is the timelines. They want— the idea would be to be 2 years ahead, have an idea. We're working on 26 products. projects right now that, well, that's what they want me to be working on, but I'm in reality still finishing up stuff for '24. Um, but the idea would be to be able to get products ready for '26 so that they can have a whole marketing plan in, in place and, you know, have everything ready to go so they can kind of push the button and have all the the content made, the marketing calendar, have everything kind of figured way ahead of the actual launch date. But it's been a struggle to try and keep up with that deadline. We're doing better now than we used to, but it's definitely still something we're working towards.

When was your big aha moment when you realized that this was a serious business and not just a hobby that was making a little bit on the side?

I think I said this in one other podcast when I got an email from Joe Rogan who was specifically asking for something that I had made. I remember replying to him like, is this— because it was like jorogan@gmail, you know? It was like a very generic email address. I replied saying like, is this the Joe Rogan? Because I had actually already made something for him and I'd given it to Yanis to give to him, and he said he'd never gotten whatever that was. So, um, so I made him a custom piece, and by then we were actually rolling pretty well. Um, that would have been probably '15 or '16. I mean, we were, we were We're definitely a business by then, but I felt like it was— that was at a point where I was like, okay, well, there's actually people that I know that are looking for this. And before that, we'd had a couple. Randy Newberg was a huge proponent of the gear for years. He's just a great guy. I guess quite a bit earlier than even the Joe Rogan moment, my cell phone rang. From a number I didn't recognize, and I usually don't answer those. But yeah, everything I'd put out was email because I had a sheriff's office phone. I didn't give out a phone number, but my phone rang and I didn't know who it was, and it wasn't restricted, so I answered it and it was Ranella. And that was probably— that was pretty early. That was probably 2012, '10 maybe, somewhere back, you know. And I remember, you know, I recognized his voice, like, hey, this is Steven Rinella. I'm like, holy shit, it is. I can tell. How did you get my number? I have no idea who gave him my number, but somehow it got out there. And, you know, it would show up in reviews and magazines. It was in Western Hunter and different places where I hadn't expected to see it. And we weren't spending money. You know, I always had assumed— and, and now being in the industry, I realized that many of the magazines do reviews on their biggest advertisers. And, you know, it keeps them advertising in those magazines. We weren't advertising. So to show up in some of those big reviews head-to-head with some of the big brands was humbling and, and exciting all at one time.

Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. I'd love to learn a little bit more about the Mediator acquisition and how did that conversation even come about and what was that like as far as the negotiation and everything. And then even now since then, since you've kind of been rolled into the greater Parent organization.

Um, so That was— it was interesting in that I retired from the sheriff's office in 2018, and I had been making, you know, I'd made Steve's bino harnesses for years, kind of. He wanted custom ones. And in fact, Jason Matzinger, if you're familiar with him, he does a hunting show.

Yeah.

He had first come to me and asked for A bino harness, but his, his main sponsor was Vortex. And so he wanted the Vortex logo sewed on the front of it. And so I'd made him the, uh, a bino harness, actually cut apart a hat to put their Vortex logo on the front. And that led to Steve asking if I put the Vortex logo on his because he was sponsored as well. And I ended up making— apparently Vortex got flooded with emails for bino harnesses when those showed up on TV. So I made, oh, probably 600 of the first, um, bino harnesses for their pro staff that literally— that I think the first 20, they sent me a stack of hats because they didn't make patches. And so I cut apart hats and hand-sewed. You know, by then I had a production run of bino harnesses, but I was doing all the distribution myself. You know, I had a box of them come in and pack boxes in the evenings and mail. And I did all the— still did all the design but wasn't doing the production run sewing. But for all these custom hats, you know, I cut apart the hats and sewed those on there for their pro staff. Then that led to them ordering probably the first 600. I actually got production made And then we had some production issues where we couldn't keep up with our own supply, much less keeping up with Vortex. So they, they ended up going a different direction and got some made elsewhere. Um, but that kind of gained a lot of popularity. And I think a lot of people— because I was, like I said, not advertising, and not everybody knew who FHF was. And when my, my bino harnesses started getting a little more popular without the Vortex logo on them, I remember hearing a couple of comments like, oh, that's just a copy of the Vortex harness, when in reality, you know, people had just seen the one I sewed their logo on to begin with. But, um, so kind of to back up and answer your question about the, the Meat Eater thing, that's sort of how— I had been making Steve's, you know, individually with the Vortex logo on it. And we had actually approached them about doing a Meat Eater branded one, see if they would be interested in, you know, a Meat Eater, you know, putting a Meat Eater patch on one and see if they'd be interested in selling something like that. And we went to that meeting right after I retired, and we walked into the meeting and met with their head of business development and We didn't even get to that conversation. He's just like, well, to be honest, we'd rather just buy the company. Are you interested in selling it? And we were completely taken off guard. I had just retired and started doing this full-time. My wife had quit her job a year prior to do this full-time because we were so busy. So I backed up. We left the meeting and like, well, we'll talk about it. We'll think about it. We ended up turning them down initially because we felt like we were just getting the momentum we needed. Then we came into a— we actually had kind of a bad year of production. They reapproached us about buying it. We had a production company that kind of closed on us and, and caused a lot of stress at home. And they reapproached us and asked if we were still interested in buying it— or selling it, sorry. And at that point, we were stressed enough that we thought, you know, that might not be a bad idea to have somebody else in charge of the checkbook and, and let them have the stress of Dealing with this kind of stuff. So that's when we entered into negotiations there, which was kind of a pain in that you have to go back through all of your books and they want to see all your financial records for years prior to kind of do their due diligence on finances and stuff. I will say, being a sole proprietor, you're able to write off a lot of things and take distributions where you can. I had the benefit of being in law enforcement. I like to hunt and fish, and I have a business that does tactical hunting and fishing stuff. So I could write off everything I did. And we did pretty good at keeping receipts, but they definitely wanted to— Really deep dive into everything, which required hiring an accountant to put everything into something that made sense to them above our very elementary knowledge of QuickBooks. But it went okay. And by the end, we still— came aboard with the MeatEater team. And, and, uh, um, I don't know what other specific questions you have about like negotiations or anything like that, but—

Yeah, no, that's fascinating. Um, I'm always curious around mergers and acquisitions, and especially like in the outdoor space because, you know, we see in every industry we're seeing so much of that happening. So I'm just always fascinated by that process and what it looks like. And, um, so I guess in hindsight, is there anything that you would have done differently when it came either to the negotiations there or just how you position things or Would you have sold sooner, waited longer? What's your kind of looking back on the past?

I'd say there's definitely pros and cons to it for us. It's enabled us to grow much faster having the money from them behind us, be able to put in large POs. The way I ran the business prior was definitely we didn't— ever do anything to go and go into debt. We only bought enough product that we knew we could sell and then have the ability to pay that off as soon as it arrived. And with them coming in and the money they were able to put into purchase orders, you know, if they wanted to, instead of ordering, you know, 200 bino harnesses, they could order 2,000. Or 10,000. I mean, they could do whatever they wanted. And so, that definitely allowed us to grow plus the obvious— we had looked prior to acquisition about advertising with MeatEater and getting an ad in the podcast or on the show or something and it's so expensive. And now, obviously, that's sort of built in. Yes. So, that's been able to get the word out. But one of the nice things Steve called me right after the acquisition happened and said for him, it was important that I maintain creative control just like he maintains creative control within MeatEater, that at the end of the day, it was my decision what I made. He specifically said, I'd like to have some input, but definitely not at a point where So at the end of the day, you decide what you make. I'm not going to tell you what to make or not make, and I don't want anybody in the company to tell you that. So that's been nice that I've maintained that still. But I'm trying to think where I was going with that. But as far as the merger and acquisition stuff, I always joke too that I have a biology degree and I was a cop for 20 years. So business was not my area of expertise. So they make an offer and I'm like, I don't know how much the business is worth. I know how much I make and I know that there's potential there, but I don't know the value of it. So coming up with some of these— hiring a good accountant and hiring a good— Business lawyer was definitely worth every penny to get their input on the process.

For sure. What is the biggest business lesson that you learned throughout either starting the company and then through the acquisition and even today?

That's a good question. I'd say before acquisition, for sure, I was used to working with folks, especially in my previous job, who I could take at their word. And I found out through either partnering with other companies or, or that business was business and not everybody you could take at their word. If they could make money, make some money and, and screw you over in the process, that they may do that. So I had to Learn what I knew innately, but, but I was probably over-trusting, which is weird for a cop, you know, who's suspicious of everyone. Um, but I really felt like people I worked with, I should be able to trust, or, you know, people I, you know, other brand partners or whatever, I should be able to take at their word and, and make sure that, that they would have my best interests at heart, which— I've learned that in business and in corporate America, that is, you know, the almighty dollar is, uh, unfortunately, yeah, more important.

Paul, where do you go for creative inspiration when it comes to designing new products? Do you look at other things that are already on the market, or do you just come up with an idea while you're out in the field? What does that process look like?

Um, I'd say it's a little bit of both. Oftentimes, you know, I will see other products out there and, and Mm-hmm. You know, for years, you know, I've made things that I'm like, I don't— I buy that one because that's a great one. And then every now and then, I'm like, you know, I have a way I could make that a little better. And I don't want to necessarily copy anybody else's ideas because I've had that done to me, unless I can find a way that I feel like it significantly makes a difference and makes something a better product. Alternatively, you know, I've had a lot of stuff that I want something that does something. For instance, that bear spray holster I meant, you know, mentioned before. At the time, there was no way to attach a bear spray holster to MOLLE, you know, short of zip ties or rubber bands or something. And so, you know, I was the first one to ever do that. And You know, it was just solving a problem. And then that's one of the things I actually miss about making custom gear is we'd get a lot of requests for, you know, I want a way to attach my radio to the back of this pouch and I want to be able to stack it onto, you know, nobody makes that. So it was nice for me to be able to kind of work through and problem solve and make something that did exactly what the customer want. And And sometimes having the experience of worked in those environments or played in those environments, been able to come back and give my personal input on those and then say, I understand what you want, but functionally I think this is going to work better. Let's try this. And, you know, for the most part, that usually worked out and customers appreciated that kind of feedback. And, and a lot of ideas came from that.

Do you have a favorite product of all of those that you make that you just love, that you feel like it's just your baby?

Hmm, that's a good question. I, uh, I'd say, you know, what's been top of the list is this new bino harness, is partially because it's— I spent the last 2 years of my life dealing with that and make different iterations and really wanted to make the best one on the market, taking little bits and pieces from every other brand out there. Because now, I mean, when I started making bino harnesses, I was one of 3 or 4 maybe. And now the last time I looked, and I looked because somebody, somebody tried to say that, uh, We were copying one of theirs that, you know, I've been making since 2010, and they, they started making one in '22 and decided that, uh, we were copying them. Um, but so I recently looked to see how many were actually out there, and I think I found 28 or 30 major brands making bino harnesses now, and that doesn't count all the, you know, Chinese copies of, of those brands. But this is one I feel like this, this new bino harness is one that kind of takes features and parts and pieces from all of them, makes it more modular, and kind of brings the best of all worlds together. And so I'd say that's certainly the one I've spent the most time on. As far as being my baby, I don't know. I think the whole brand is You know, kind of all fits into that category, to be honest.

Yeah, I will say I really love the new harness, the FOB, because when I came into the shop, it was specifically I wanted to check it out because I've run one of the other ones for 2 or 3 years now, and I like it. Um, but the, the clip-down, how it came from the back to the front, into all the new ones like the Marsupial and everything there, it's the fold-down. And so I had actually purchased one of the Marsupials, and just to check it out. It's a little bit bulkier, and so I'm like, okay, well, if FHF Gear is coming out with a new one, I want to test it out, but I can't really justify spending money on another harness right now, right? So I was way overly impressed. Um, I was surprised by how much I liked it. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna finish using the old one that I've been using this season, and then definitely gonna have to upgrade just because it's such a drastic improvement. So great job on that.

Yeah, I appreciate it. And that was one of those things I actually Avoided getting into the magnet game for a long time because, um, in fact, one of the guys we have that works here now was one of the ones that did the original, uh, custom order for a bino harness without magnets. Um, so we made the bino harness without magnets with that bungee closure. And then I kind of resisted going to magnets. Because that was the original design to get away from them. Um, but then we, you know, we saw the market going that direction and everybody was asking for one. And, and years ago we had people ask if we could make a top opening, and I felt like the best way to do it would be to be using magnets, but I just didn't want to kind of go down that road. And then, you know, some of the other ones you mentioned, Marsupial, and there's several others out there that that make them. And I always felt like, well, I don't have a specific idea that would really improve on them. They're good products. And, you know, I started working on this and then it evolved over time and I really felt like I had some features that I could add to it and really make it kind of that next-level product. And And I think we accomplished that.

I know there's been some controversy within the bino harness world and that how a mag— if it has the magnetic closure, uh, that it will affect your GPS, whether that's your phone or, or whatever. Have you seen that at all?

You know, we've done a lot of testing. We actually tried to do a filmed reel showing how it didn't specifically affect it, and, and it was so inconsistent it didn't make for a good video. I would say if you're holding your phone or your magnet within 8 or 10 inches of your chest, it definitely can throw it off. But I have found if I hold it out at not even arm's length, like half arm's length, it doesn't affect anything. So, you know, I don't even worry about it anymore. I'm aware of it. So like if I don't rest my phone or a compass on my chest harness, When I'm trying to, you know, get a bearing. But otherwise, I've not noticed to be an issue at all. I think it's kind of an overblown concern in most cases. And we actually went and went to the store and bought like the best compasses we could find, um, and, you know, we used our OnX, we've used GPSs and everything and tested it. And yeah, within 8 or 10 inches of your bino harness, it definitely can make a difference. But beyond that, it's just— It's not a thing.

That's good to know, Paul. So I know you said, uh, you started kind of hunting later in life. Uh, did you grow up fishing or camping, or, uh, what was your background as far as just your involvement in the outdoors?

Um, I grew up in rural Montana, and so, you know, I was always out hiking and kind of exploring my surroundings. Um, I did fish some growing up, you know, it was small streams, you know, you dunk a spinner down into the stream. There wasn't usually even room to cast, um, but really didn't have a ton of experience. Um, just always knew I liked to be outside. Um, to be honest, when I was in grade school, I was kind of an anti-hunter, you know. I just, I didn't understand it. I didn't know what it was. My, my dad died when I was young, so I, you know, my mom was not outdoorsy at all, and I just tagged along and went camping. And, you know, I remember I had a survival knife like the old Rambo-style survival knife.

Yeah, with the compass on the belt.

Oh yeah, compass right in the top. Yeah, I had a, you know, fishing line in the handle. And, you know, I'd take that on my little hikes and never got real far from the house. But, you know, that's what I grew up doing. And, you know, we'd grab a little tent and we'd go camp and, you know, really just kind of dinked around. Like I said, I grew up in rural Montana, so you could kind of disappear and not— my mom didn't really worry about me. But it really wasn't until, you know, coming to college here, I had a friend who liked to hunt and he took me, took me out hunting and, you know, getting some, some deer in the freezer was kind of nice. And, but then it really wasn't until Until working at the sheriff's office. And one of my good friends there, still one of my good friends now and hunting partners, he, he kind of took me under his wing and taught me to fly fish. And then, you know, took me bow hunting. I think he used me as a caller for the first year. He's like, hey, buy, buy some camouflage and come elk hunting with me. And I didn't, you know, have a bow even, but I walked around in the woods with him for a year and called elk. And, and, uh, The next year, I decided I should probably buy a bow and actually hunt. But it really got me into that time of year. Bow hunting elk in Montana is just incredible.

Do you rifle hunt as well as bow hunt?

I do. I actually didn't do it a whole lot until recently. Some of the other guys we had working here, Jake and Rick Hutton, who just left for the fire department, so he doesn't work for us anymore, but they're really into rifle And like, in law enforcement, I was familiar enough with rifles. I qualified as a sniper at one point. Didn't really enjoy that part of the job. You lay in the cold and stare at something. So, I didn't enjoy that. I'd rather kick a door in. But I just never really dove into like the ballistics. And occasionally, I— People still to this day, they start talking ballistics and I just kind of gloss over. But actually having better equipment that I have now and having these guys here to talk about and bounce ideas off of and really, um, have a better understanding of what my rifle's capable of has definitely got me a lot more interested in rifle hunting. But I don't like— I still don't like going out when it's miserable outside and there's, you know, 10 trucks at the trailhead and you run into people. It's just a different crowd than it is bow hunting. And, uh, I enjoy bow hunting much more, but I, I enjoy rifle hunting, but I see it more as a, like, a necessary, uh, necessary evil is not the right word because I still enjoy it, but it's like, uh I use it more for like, you know, it's time to put some meat in the freezer if, uh, yeah, if I have to.

Got it. Yeah, I was just hunting in Colorado, uh, last week and we got 20 inches of snow during second rifle season. And, um, we're up at 11,500-foot elevation and hiking through that, you know, it's -5 out and it's like, oh, it's so cold.

Yeah, and there's part of that that can be fun, you know, kind of Enjoying the suck. But yeah, you know, when the leaves are turning yellow and the elk are bugling and you can take a mid-afternoon nap in the sun, and yeah, there's just— it's so much more enjoyable to me. So I mean, pack a fly rod and you can fly fish in the middle of the day when the elk are sleeping.

Yeah, yeah, that's been interesting for me, uh, because I grew up in Kentucky and so hunting whitetail there, so that's mostly tree stand hunting. So, you know, you can start bow hunting in September. So that's early. I don't enjoy that as much there because it's so hot. You know, it's 85, maybe 90 degrees then still. So it's like this time of year, end of October, early November, where it finally starts to cool down. And then the opening of rifle season is always the second, the second Saturday in November. So I'm actually headed to Kentucky with my boys and my brothers for our annual deer camp. And that's— it's kind of the same thing where the weather It'll, it'll get, yeah, 45, 50 degrees, maybe 55 during the day, and then I get down in the 30s, sometimes in the 20s at night. And so it's just great hunting weather and the deer are moving, and that's when the rut is as well. So it's just a totally different world hunting in the East Coast than it is the West Coast from what I've experienced.

Yeah, that's a good point. It's something I've never really even thought about, is that I think part of why I enjoy it so much is because of the weather here in Montana. Because, you know, in September it's It's 40 degrees in the morning and sometimes 10 below, but usually, you know, 30s or 40s. And then, you know, you'll get 80s occasionally in September, but that's pretty rare. You know, sometimes it's, you know, the highs will be in the 70s and it's great napping weather for mid-afternoon, and, and then, uh, you're out. But yeah, the— by, by this time, yeah, like you mentioned in Colorado, it was I killed a cow last weekend, weekend before, um, with my rifle. And yeah, it was 2 below zero by then when I got her back to the truck. And, and, you know, it was nice because we didn't have far to go. It was a, it was a cow hunt specifically, um, but just different, different weather, different objective, I think.

Yeah, yeah. But it makes it fun, just the, the difference there, for sure.

Oh, absolutely.

Paul, would you consider yourself a conservationist? I know that the Meat Eater ethos very much follows along that. And myself as well, I consider myself just always looking out at the environment and our natural world and everything. Love to get your viewpoint there.

Yeah, I would say I am. I definitely— I think I fall in a different area on the political spectrum than a lot of folks, specifically That may put that ahead of some things. But I think— I don't think we can continue to do what we're doing if we don't conserve what we have. So I'm a big proponent of— personally, I feel this country needs to be much more self-sufficient. I think we do need to open up more areas for For pulling natural resources out, oil drilling, that kind of stuff. But it has to be done in a responsible manner. And we have to do it in a way that protects the areas that need to be protected. So there's a hard balance there. And I don't pretend to know the answer. But we have to do— my concern is if we continue to be a country that relies on On other countries for our natural resources or put our economy in such a bad place that it puts that ahead of people that eventually we're not going to have a country worth protecting anyway or that we aren't going to be able to enjoy those natural things if— We're all owned by Russia or something. Obviously, I don't believe that's going to happen. But yes. But you have to find a balance, I think. And I do have a degree in biology. I am one of those guys that's always— my wife gets annoyed at me because walking through the woods, I'm— I'm constantly pulling noxious weeds because I sprayed weeds for a couple of years and I just don't like seeing them. And I carry more trash out of the woods than I bring into it. So, it's one of those things that is important to me. I want to leave everywhere that I go better than I found it. And I want to do what's right for the wildlife that's out there. For instance, the wilderness areas around Montana, you know, there's an argument that it needs to be opened up so more people can enjoy it and needs to have motorized traffic in there. And I disagree with that. I think, you know, that's— I love getting into these areas where I don't have to worry about, you know, getting passed on the trail by a motorcycle or whatever. You know, that's part of what I enjoy about going back into those areas is is having it to myself or having it undisturbed. And, you know, we have to protect those areas. So, um, but, you know, like I said, at some point we also have to recognize that our economy has to keep rolling, and somehow there's got to be a balance there.

Yeah. And where is that balance? You know, because obviously, you know, there's so much deforestation that's happened. Um, so I own property in Kentucky still where we have our deer camp and everything. And I've gotten so many requests where people want to come and log it and make a lot of money. But it's like, okay, yeah, I could do that and have a lot of cash there, but then I'm going to have to go turn around and buy something else because I just love the trees. They're beautiful and amazing. And so, trying to strike that balance, it seems like a real challenge. So, I'm curious—

It is. And I actually have a little bit of property. Go ahead and finish your question. I'll know which direction to go.

Yeah.

I was just going to ask what you see as kind of the biggest threat to conservation or not I think exactly like I mentioned, it's the money and the people that are making decisions that don't have a real interest or are putting money above the science of actually— I'm trying to think how to best term it. Putting a political agenda or a feeling above science-based evidence on how to manage a resource. I don't think you can automatically say, well, we should never cut a tree down because we need wood. But at the same time— You can't just say we should cut every tree down because we need wood. So you have to find that balance, maybe look at everything. Um, so I, I feel like the, the biggest, biggest challenges are kind of balancing that between the two. You know, you have people saying we can't hunt bears in Washington because they like teddy bears. Um, at the same time, you have people saying we should open up the entire Arctic National Wildlife Refuge for drilling. There has to be a middle ground between those 2 things. Those competing interests are probably causing more trouble than using common sense.

Yeah. I've personally noticed kind of the hypocrisy when it comes to trees as far as different companies where for every tree we cut down, we're planting 2. However, the hypocrisy that I've seen in it is they're cutting hardwoods and then planting softwoods. So it's not an apple for an apple. And so, it just seems like there's a lot of greenwashing that goes on when it comes to these types of conversations just around the environment and what we're doing to protect it and take care of our natural world.

Well, agreed 100%. And actually, it's funny because Rick, who used to work here, he has a forestry degree and has done a lot of that stuff. And he said, at least in the West here, one of the biggest problems is conifer encroachment coming in And there's not enough fires happening and there's not enough logging happening to thin those things. Not that clear-cutting would be the answer, but potentially thinning to decrease the intensity of some of these fires. Trees use a ton of water. So you get that encroachment into the open areas and the water availability decreases for everything. So And then the fire dangers come up. And like you said, I have, I have a piece, a little piece of property that's old family property here in Montana. And it's one of those things, I walk through it and it scares me because of the fire danger. You know, there's never been any thinning. There's never been— well, at least not in the recent history. There's certain areas that are just completely overgrown. There's certain areas that are filled with downfall and deadfall and rotting wood. You know, I've looked at trying to figure out how to get in there and responsibly clear some of that out. Not that I would get any money for it.

Sure.

Quite honestly, it'd probably cost me an arm and a leg to have it cleared out of there. But, but, you know, just to be able to use it and open up some of that because it's good elk habitat, but a lot of it's just getting choked out with, with small conifers and some sage and, you know, different things. And the weeds, you know, coming in there, that it's all grazed. Um, the surrounding Forest Service is all grazed by cattle, and, you know, they're moving weeds in and out of there. Cheatgrass is coming in, and it's just not as, uh, not a good of a diet as, you know, for the deer and elk and moose and stuff that are typically in there. So, um, I don't know, like I said, it's all— it's always a balancing act trying to figure out the, the best approach to it.

I had this conversation with some of my buddies that I was hiking or hunting with last week in Colorado about what a tough job all the departments of Fish and Wildlife have, just even in the case of game management. Because based on the region and like how many are harvested and then the winter die-off and things like that, and you're just managing it. So I can't even imagine the logistical nightmare that is of trying to just Just when it comes to the herds, when it comes to elk or moose or whatever you're hunting.

Well, it's— and especially with all the competing interests that they're trying to make happy. I mean, you can't make the livestock lobby as well as the environmentalist lobby and, you know, like all of those things. You can't— you're not going to make everybody happy. You have to follow the science and do what's right for the resource. And occasionally that's going to piss everybody off.

Yeah.

So I mean, quite honestly, that's probably the right answer.

Yeah.

Whatever makes everybody mad.

Because it seems like all the different lobbyists, and whether that's the agricultural one or the cattle lobbyists or whatever, they're just looking— they're looking at it very one-dimensionally as far as what is going to line their own pockets the best. And like, to your point, if everyone's a little bit pissed off, that's probably the best option because it's looking at it from a bigger whole, like the entire microcosm. Unfortunately, I think we get so stuck in our own worldview that we forget to look at how this could be coming from someone else's worldview and from the environment and the animals as well.

Yep. No, it's one of those things, like, I just feel like you have to look at it from all the perspectives and, you know, balance. Sometimes you're going to find a perspective that you just can dismiss or, you know, find that It is something completely out of greed or, or emotion, whereas, you know, oftentimes different points of view have valid points. And yeah, I feel like if you just dismiss those immediately, you're doing everybody a disservice.

Yeah, I feel like this is a really good segue to get into something a little bit more controversial, um, wolf and grizzly reintroduction. What is your thoughts on that entire conversation happening right now?

Um, it's interesting. I just heard a, heard a news article about the grizzly reintroduction like into the Pacific Northwest, which will be interesting. Um, I don't— I can't imagine that there's not some already coming into that area, you know, down from BC and different, different parts of Canada. Um, but I think the same thing was true of Colorado. You know, they're— I don't know if they did or were talking about reintroducing wolves into Colorado. Maybe they did already. Um, and there seemed to be pretty good evidence that there was already wolves, you know, at least transitioning through that area from Montana, Wyoming, um, and Idaho. It's strange how my position has changed because I remember in high school writing a position paper for an English class on how introduction of wolves was going to be the greatest thing ever for The elk herds and the economy. And, you know, I remember arguing very strongly as to why this was such a great idea. I still don't necessarily disagree that, uh, that it's wrong because being out there, I love seeing them. Um, I do think there's some benefits to the native wildlife. At the same time, I've watched the elk herds, at least in my area, completely disappear and/or their behavior change completely. I know there's a ranch south of Bozeman here that has bison and they were getting I don't know, something like 13 bison a month or something getting killed by wolves. And, uh, it was kind of a political issue because the owner of the ranch was, was very, um, pro-wolf introduction. But it got to a point where he was like, maybe we should allow some wolf hunting up here because this is becoming a problem. Um, but I think politically he couldn't make that. You know, I knew some folks that worked on the ranch, and so I kind of had the inside scoop. But there was like this political, like, we, we wish we could do something, but we can't because we already took a stance.

Oh man. Um, that is really unfortunate, those things that someone feels so tied into their initial stance that they're That they're so worried about the fallout if they change their mind because of new information, because that's the mark of an intelligent mind.

Yeah, that's one of the things that drives me crazy about politics. And I think I mentioned in our pre-interview stuff where like I'm— I know I'm getting old when I'm paying more and more attention to politics than I ever used to and watching the news. Um, but it's one of those things that, you know, you always hear how somebody's a flip-flopper or somebody changed their position and how that's such a terrible thing. And in my mind, it is potentially, depending on the issue and, and how frequently it's happening, it's, it's a, it's a sign to me that somebody's paying attention and willing to take in new information. So, um, you just see some people dig in, and no matter what the evidence says, they're like, nope, this is the way it is and the way I believe, and I can't change my mind even Even though all the facts say that I'm wrong.

Yeah. So I live in Boulder, Colorado, and I've seen that with COVID and people still wearing masks now. And it's like even though the science has come out and it's still— they just won't accept it because they took a stance right at the beginning and they're not willing to look at it any other way. And I'm just completely dumbfounded.

Not willing to look at it one way or they're afraid they're going to get kicked out of the tribe if they If they don't stick with the narrative.

That's not a tribe I want to be in if they're going to be so close-minded as that.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I don't really, uh, belong to any tribe, I don't think.

Paul, what's the biggest life lesson that you've learned from just nature and the outdoors and spending time in the wilderness?

Biggest life lesson from outdoors? I— that's a hard one. I Again, and stuff we'd mentioned prior to that, prior to the podcast, um, I think one of the, the coolest experiences I had was I got invited to go on a hunt in Scotland. And, you know, growing up in Montana and the US and the North American model wildlife, you're like, I feel like that's— The standard by which all others should be judged. And then I went to Scotland, which is very weird from my perspective in that the estate owner owns the wildlife and there's no natural predators over there. They go out and if they don't allow hunting, then they have to hire stalkers to go out or deer management folks to go out and they'll kill 1,000 deer a year.

Whoa!

And then they sell those to the local market.

Okay.

So it's interesting, you can go to the, you know, any pub in Scotland or, you know, grocery store, I think, and just buy venison. And they're sold, you know, like cattle would be. But I will say what was really interesting is that all the stalkers that I hunted with and walked around with, They knew more about the ecology of that ranch that they were on or the resource that they were managing. They were all experts. They knew, we're seeing too many of these flowers. It tells me that this other plant is getting overeaten by the elk, or vice versa. We're not seeing enough of this. It tells me they're eating too much of that one. We were taking the older, um, their hinds over there, not cows. And let me say cows and does, but, um, they just were very knowledgeable. A lot of them actually in their day jobs either worked for their Department of Forestry or, you know, different places, and then would come out and help guide. Um, and it was just a— it was a very interesting experience. And I would say— The whole country, the food was in just such a better quality of food. Like, everything's regenerative agriculture over there. Everything is, um, like, my wife has stomach issues. She has trouble finding, um, food here that doesn't hurt her stomach, and over there she could eat anything she wanted. Um, you know, there, there wasn't the the additives and the chemicals and, you know, everything. Every deer we shot over there, we marked the location, the time, we took fat scores, we cleaned them, you know, very well. They, they had to be, you know, moved into the cooler by a certain time, and they, you know, everything was recorded. And so that the buyers that came in and bought that meat knew exactly where it came from and what condition it was in.

Wow.

You know, if there was any problems with it. And so it was really interesting to me To see how they manage that. And I'm not saying that that's a good system that we need to change to, but, you know, part of that was nice in that, you know, it made me recognize how nice it is here that I could just go out in the woods and go hunt. Because over there, you pretty much have to have money or land, um, to, to be able to hunt, if you could even get a gun. You know, that's a whole nother issue. But, um, It, uh, it was interesting and eye-opening. Um, I would say I have not hunted— I've hardly hunted outside of the state, much less out of the country. And so for me, it was an eye-opening experience to like experience a different culture, a different— just a whole different way of doing things and, and have an understanding of why and how things work over there.

Yeah, that's fascinating. And that kind of makes me think of back in Kentucky, the Closest butcher to where we normally hunt, it's an Amish butcher shop. And so you take your deer in and you have no idea if you're getting your deer back or someone else's. They just don't do a good job of it. And that's always frustrating for me where I've, I've pretty much stopped doing that, where we will just process it ourselves, uh, just because it's— I know what, where the deer are and what they're feeding on and things like that. How somewhere else, it may be a more agricultural area where they're eating GMO corn and other crap that's definitely not the best for them. So that's frustrating. So it's interesting how they're marking it so specifically so you know exactly which one you're getting.

Yeah, no, it was really cool. We— they had GPS coordinates of every— everything they took. And like I said, we'd— when we would, uh, process them, um, it was, you know, literally recording weights and kidney scores and ages. And like, I mean, it was very meticulous and And those guys knew what they were doing and they could tell you like everything about the herds. You know, some of these— well, the ranch we were on is like, I don't remember, it was like 150,000 acres. It was huge estate, not a ranch, but it was impressive. And I was very impressed with the guides. One of the head stocker over there, his name is Sam Thompson. He's written several articles. I've seen his articles in like, you know, books and publications over here. And it was just an incredible experience. I'd love to go back someday, but it was eye-opening and educational all at once.

Yeah, sounds like it. Paul, what's an outdoor experience that you would never want to repeat?

Most of them I've ended up learning from. I've had several that, you know, haven't been lost since high school, but I've been lost a couple of times. I certainly didn't want to repeat that one. I'd say the most recent one is probably flipping a raft. My wife and I decided we were going to— it's one of those warm spring days, you know, and by warm spring days, it got up to like 40 and was sunny, and we decided we were going to go float. Water temperature was still quite low.

What?

Yeah. And we decided, you know, we're going to go float the river on this first nice day of the year. And we didn't even bring fly rods or anything. It was just one of those things, we're going to kind of enjoy the first spring day. And we got out in the river and have a little raft. And didn't bring a whole lot. I think we were wearing jeans and like literally just gonna do an hour float, you know, from one point to another. And, and, uh, she had never been on the river before, so it was kind of like one of those things like to just to go get outside. And we turned the first corner in the river and the wind picked up and I don't know if I had deflated— like I said, we pumped the raft up in the parking lot because we hadn't used it yet that year. And I don't know if we did one tube a little low or what, but the wind got underneath one side of it and just rolled it right into the river. And there was nobody else out on the river because it was cold. And we ended up getting it flipped back up. Collected most of our gear and had to float out the rest of the way in the wind and actually had the wind in our face. So I actually had to row downstream most of the way and we were about froze to death when we got out. Had to hitch a ride with a couple of folks that I'm fairly certain were probably transporting drugs. But they picked us up and at that point, you can't turn it down. So we got a ride back to our car and went home and had to buy new phones. But other than that, no worse for wear.

Oh, wow!

That's a great story. That's probably the most recent thing, I think. That's probably the—

Well, hearing that, what outdoor gear equipment do you consider essential every time you're out in the wild?

So, around here, I always have bear spray with me. Boots for me are kind of number one. I've got terrible feet. So, once I find a set of boots that work for me, that's what I stick with. Good socks, good boots. I always have a puffy coat with me depending on the time of year. But really, I'm that guy. I think it's from working a lot of night shifts. If I have one headlamp, I have 2, and I probably have a pocket flashlight too.

2 is one, one is none.

Yeah. I always carry a lighter. I can't think of a time I've ever actually used it. I never start fires in the woods. Yeah, I'd say for me, it's bear spray. I usually have a gun with me, good boots, and an insulation layer is big. Trying to think what else. You know, it depends on the activity, obviously. But, you know, I always have a knife of some sort, but— and binos. I pretty much don't go anywhere without my binos.

What's your go-to knife?

What's that?

What's your go-to knife?

Um, well, I just got one from you guys, which has been, um, very nice. I haven't had a chance to use that one a whole lot yet. Um, I have, uh, I have one from Argali that I carry in my kill kit. Super light.

Brad's done a really good job with some of those.

Yeah, he's, he's done a great job and super good dude too. Um, I always have a Benchmade in my pocket. Um, it's one of those things I just always have on me. So those are— I mean, I carry the Benchmade pretty much every day and then have that Argali in my kill kit that's super light. So those are kind of the ones I go to right now.

What other than FHF Gear, any of the maybe Meat Eater brands, um, what other companies in the outdoor space do you think are doing just a phenomenal job of product quality and/or their conservation efforts as well?

Um, it's hard to pin one down. Like, I, I, I have a lot of good things to say about pretty much any— anybody who's still making stuff in the US. Um, you know, we're still doing that as well, and it's not always easy, and it's not always the most profitable.

Sure.

So, um, so I have a lot of respect for anybody who's doing that here. I mean, even our competitors, you know, any of the big pack companies, um, you know, the Stone Glaciers, XO, Mystery Ranch, um, you know, all make— Kifaru— they're all making very high quality gear. Um, you know, many of our— even the bino harness competitors you mentioned, Marsupial, all that kind of stuff. I think they make great gear. Seek Out Outside. We're good friends with the guys at Spartan Precision. They're doing the bipods. They're the ones that invited us to go hunt in Scotland. So, and Rob's been a good friend, and he's actually working on actually getting some production over here into the US as well. I mean, most of his market is in the US, to be honest. So. Like Weatherby and Seekins for rifles, Sewn Goods. There's just so many out there that are making good gear. Obviously, to be honest, all the outdoor clothing manufacturers are high-quality brands. You know, we're partnered with First Light and I think they're doing some incredible stuff. As they transition. Um, I think in their past they'd had some sizing issues and different things, you know, really focused on wool. And I've watched them kind of evolve over the years, um, getting in some of these more technical fabrics. And I know, having the inside scoop of what's coming, I'm quite excited for some of the stuff that's going to be coming out here in the next year or two. Um, like I said, they're making us plan 2 years out, so I'm not sitting in too many of those design meetings. Um, and that's really a fly on the wall there. Yeah. Um, but I think that that's true of all those, you know, outdoor gear companies. They're all competing to be very high-end technical gear, and they're all doing a good job of it. Um, so yeah, it's hard to, hard to pin any of that down.

Yeah, that's a good list though. Thank you, Paul. Is there a book that has had a major impact on your life?

You asked this question pre-interview and like I had to really think about it. I would say the book itself that probably affected me the most throughout my life wasn't necessarily the book. It was kind of the lessons learned from it and different courses I took from teachers who used lessons from it. And that was Gates of Fire, which is the— Kind of the story of the— they made a movie kind of based on it, 300, you know, the Greek or the Spartan warriors, you know, that the leadership and the kind of selfless attitude and putting others above self. So that has probably had the most effect in my life. Looking back, you know, and then more recent books I've read, you know, that have had an impact on me, I'd say would be stuff like Jocko's book. Yes, Extreme Ownership, Coddling of the American Mind. I liked Crenshaw's book Fortitude. There's another one I just read, Comfort Crisis. I think that was a great book. So that's the kind of stuff I kind of, you know, really get into, kind of self-reflective. Like, it makes you I don't know, to be honest, it makes me sometimes think, man, I need to do better at what I'm doing and learn some life lessons. So yeah, but those are kind of the things that I tend to read. I really liked— I joke about Steve's book, That American Buffalo.

Yeah. I'm actually reading that one right now. I'm about halfway through.

I really enjoyed that book. I've listened to it. I got an audiobook and I think I've listened to it 3 or 4 times. That was one of those books— I had a sheep hunt a couple of years ago and I was in there a lot by myself. I was walking out one night and there were grizzly bears and all sorts of stuff going on. I just put it on speaker on my phone so I had somebody to talk to as I walked out of the mountains. Um, but yeah, it's one of those entertaining books. He does a good job of storytelling in that book.

And he's such a wealth of knowledge when it comes to just the history and the biology of it all. That's— I've just been very impressed by that.

Yeah, and I think that's part of the best part of that book for me is how he wove in both the story of his hunt along with the, the conservation, the history of the species, as well as, you know, the scientific understanding of, you know, the, the prehistory of, of the species. So I don't know, it's one of those— and he did a very good job of weaving those all together, I thought.

Yeah, definitely. That's such a skill set, being a storyteller like that. It's not necessarily 100% I have. I mean, it's not to that extent, so— but I really appreciate it when others do.

Yeah, that's, uh, we joke about it here with the, the Meat Eater family where, you know, you got Jason Phelps who's on TV and all the Meat Eater folks and Then there's me who's not the personality. And I always joke that it's hard to be a personality when you don't have one. So that's my go-to.

Got it! Paul, do you have a favorite podcast?

Obviously, I listen to a lot of the Meat Eater ones because they have a whole family of podcasts. But I find myself listening to a lot of— You know, the Joe Rogans, the— listen to more politics than I should, but I find myself kind of picking and choosing based on a guest, not necessarily following a single podcast, you know, no matter who's on it. I find myself scrolling through, finding people I'm interested in hearing, everything from science to politics to conservation and history. But certainly, Meat Eater. I really like— you're talking about storytellers like Bear Grylls. Clay Newcomb's podcast is a fun one to listen to. And then, half the time at the gym, I find myself listening to Andy Frisella or something about business or getting fired up about something I probably shouldn't worry about.

We all do it every now and then.

Yeah.

Paul, what's one piece of advice you'd like to leave with our audience today?

I would say just what we talked about earlier is don't become set on— no matter the issue, research what's actually going on. And don't just dig in with one opinion and be unwilling to learn about both sides of the issue. It's something that I think has served me well both in business as well as friendships and politics. In my previous job in law enforcement, you couldn't show up at a scene and take one person's word for what happened. You had to really kind of dig into— both sides of the story and try and figure out where the truth really lied. And I think that's true kind of in life in general.

Yeah, I think that's great advice. And Paul, where can people learn more about you online and FHF Gear and everything that you're doing?

Well, I think obviously for FHF specifically, all of our social channels. My wife runs our social media for the most part. Fhfgear.com, @fhfgear on Instagram and Facebook. And then my personal Instagram, I don't post a whole lot on, it's just @fhfgear_paul. Um, and that's typically where I'd post my pictures of fish and gear I may or may not be testing occasionally. Um, but But yeah, really, I don't use those a whole lot, but kind of the standard stuff through MeatEater, the MeatEater group of organizations as well.

Yeah, super. We'll be sure to include links to all of those channels in our show notes. Paul, thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciated your time, and this has been a great conversation and love learning more about you and everything you've done with FHF Gear and with the MeatEater family of brands. So thanks so much for your time.

Yeah, absolutely. Again, appreciate you having me on.

Definitely. And for the rest of you out there, until next time, stay wild.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic Minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.