Ep 44: Jess Caldwell on Following a Natural Path from Birth to Death

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to the Welcome to the Adventure Made Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Jess Caldwell. Super excited for today's interview as Jess is an outdoor educator, a wilderness survival instructor, a nature lover, and a yogi. She's the founder of Wild Kind Academy, an immersive program of outdoor education, training, and leadership development. Jess, thanks so much for being on the show today. Really excited for our conversation.

Me too. I know it's been a long time coming. You— I've been connecting for a while, but We finally did it.

Yeah, we've been talking about this for months now. So yeah. Well, just to get started, I would love to get a little bit of your background story and how you got into the outdoor space. Because it feels like the outdoor industry and just education specifically, it's very male dominated. So there's not that many women. So I'd love to kind of explore how you got into it. And that, that relational polarity within the masculine and the feminine within the outdoor space.

Ooh, I like how you're bringing in masculine-feminine polarity. That's some juicy stuff. Yeah, for sure.

We're all about the juicy conversations here.

I know. Well, then we're going to go. We got a lot to talk about today.

How much time you got?

Right? We'll go deep here. Well, really, I started Wild Kind Academy 3 years ago, and I just had an extreme interest in learning skills that would make me feel a little more sovereign, a little more confident, a little less weird when the pandemic was just launching. All of my friends were doing the big Costco trips. And as a single mom and just, you know, who really didn't have the resources to go financially plan for the potentials of what was coming down, the—

Impending apocalypse.

The full-on gloom and doom that was happening, I really decided that I was going to just I don't know, keep a light heart and start to learn things that mattered, that gave me a sense of security. And, um, you know, I think my interest in the outdoors— God, I mean, that, that came about in my life from the time I was 3. I mean, my dad had me skiing the skiing— he was a race director, and so he had me skiing, um, from the time I could walk. And I was— oh, I was on the race team.

Wow.

And so I was I was a ski racer through high school.

Sounds like a great father.

Yeah, I know. He was great. And, he bought me my first Quarter Horse when I was young and raised me very free-range. He lived out off the grid and out in the middle of nowhere in Oregon. And, my summers with him, he'd give me a horse and say, make sure you're back before dark. And, I'd pack a little satchel and pretend I was just kind of like a You know, a nature, a nature, I don't know what you would call that, some kind of mythical creature that would get on a horse and ride off. And I'd set up my pretend everything and just go be out doing things all day long, miles away from his cabin. And so certainly, I've always had a bit of that in me. And I did Outward Bound when I was 14, which was a 3-week backpacking part of the Pacific Crest Trail. And, that was a pretty big deal to do when I was 14 years old. And, it really helped, I guess, change me as a young woman coming into my own coming of age. I think it was one of the coolest things I could have done because coming into middle school and spending 3 weeks completely learning that I could do really incredible things like hike all day with a big backpack and live very simply and really feel the needs of the group and learn skills that were clearly things that the rest of my peers in school just didn't have access to or didn't really understand. And they finished that program with a 3-day solo. So, I'm 14, having a 3-day solo out in the way, way backcountry, and you come back changed from that. And I just don't think I was I think it was a little different. I was an odd bird from a young age for sure. And, that just— so, I've always really been trying to dive into those places, those non-manufactured outdoor experiences that make me feel amazing. And so, I guess fast forward to the pandemic again and this feeling of how did we do it as humans? How did we get here?

We're still trying to figure that out. Yeah. How did we do it?

And so, it just started one thing after the next. Like I said, I didn't have a lot of resources. So at the time, I started Wildkind Academy and I hired some of the best instructors that I could find to come in and teach classes so that I could take the classes. I wasn't— this isn't something I was making money off of or creating a, you know, my— how I was paying my bills. It was just how I was writing off my fishing gear and my hunting gear and then having trainings that were very expensive. And so to be able to have someone come and teach wilderness survival or, you know, intro to hunting or intro to foraging these different things, then I could, I could take the classes. And my contribution was I knew how to put together events and market them, and I get excited about things. And so I think my excitement over a particular class is— can be contagious because I'll call everybody I know and be like, you got to come do this thing with me. And next, you know, people come and they have a great time. And so that's really where it started. I did take an ethnobotany course probably 10 years ago. It was a 1-year ethnobotany mentorship training in which it was all about the study of wild plants, edible, medicinal, and utilitarian use of plants. And I think that really did start to inspire me years ago around what was available to us just in abundance, in nature's abundance. And so learning about foraging, fishing, hunting, all these things, wilderness skills that can get you deeper into nature. with confidence has been an awakening for me. And I'd have to say it's become a spiritual journey.

Wow. That's a fascinating story about how you got into it. I'd like to dig in a little further as far as like before there, because I know like in your bio, you had mentioned being a yoga instructor and you were also involved in the funeral industry as well, which those are, and then nutrition also. So those are all very different. And so I'd like to tie those together and kind of how This very circuitous career path, how that's got to shape to where you are today.

It actually— did I mention odd bird earlier? I think I said that. The thing is, is they all actually completely connect. And I think that was something interesting that happened to me in these last few years is I've been probably a seeker my whole life trying to figure out how to do life and feel more alive and feel integrated and feel healthy and happy. And I've taken these different paths. You know, I went to school, graduated with Bachelor of Science in Health and Wellness Promotion, later went and did some of this yogic training. I did my 500-hour teacher training and really got into kind of this mind-body breathwork. Mindfulness work, meditation work, and how that started to affect my life. So I started integrating just my health journey because I was always interested in, yeah, I guess just how to live a more full life feeling good. And when the yogic training came in, I started to develop this sense of what the, not just the physical expression of working out and, you know, eating well and those types of things. It's like, okay, I have this physical, understanding of taking care of my body, this bodysuit that I'm wearing in this lifetime. But also, when I got into the yoga practice, there was this internal work that I realized was a whole nother universe that I could tap into. Later, due to, I guess, yeah, I'd have to say it was the— I lost my dad, one of the, like, probably one of the most important people in my life, died very tragically when I was an adult. And I kind of just, I felt very helpless. I wasn't raised with religion and I wasn't raised with really an understanding of what happens next. And I just knew I felt a very deep loss and grief. And I really didn't, you know, aside from, okay, you can meditate all you want. And the grief process was big for me. It didn't quite seem to go away. I was living in Kauai, the island of Kauai at the time when I got the call. And I immediately, you know, got off island and came home to Oregon. But by the time I got there, he had been cremated already. I mean, I didn't even kind of get a chance to—

Wow.

I didn't get a chance to kind of witness or integrate like what had happened. And for years, I was having nightmares of that he, you know, that he was still alive and living somewhere else. I just didn't know where he was. And it was just very bothersome to me. And for some reason, In my kind of moment of most depression, I decided I was going to go work at a funeral home and cemetery because I thought that just maybe being close to the dead and/or those who are dying might have some answers for me about my depression in my state of living. And it really opened up a lot of channels for me because I have to say, even though the funeral industry as an industry is quite a It can be kind of a monster, to be honest. And I learned a lot. There's some great professionals in the industry, and there's some that aren't. But I learned a lot. And I did start to realize that every day leaving the funeral home after meeting with people who were making their arrangements for either someone they loved and lost or that they themselves were dying, I noticed I started to leave at the end of the day with a different kind of like awareness of like alive, of being alive and what it means to to feel. And I was interested in becoming a funeral director. I went, you know, and, and kind of witnessed what the dead looked like. I think I needed to have that understanding. And I know that sounds strange. But when all is said and done, I left the industry. And I started a consulting experience called Northwest Home Funerals and Green Burial, where that was just me learning about How I could help make a better experience for people who were either on the path of preparing for a death, whether it was for themselves or a loved one, and how I could consult so that they could even circumnavigate the funeral industry if need be. I went and took a death doula training.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. I went to New Orleans and met with the Green Burial Council because I wanted to see how we could do death better in a more— that had more of a conservation aspect of how we could do death better and have it make more sense for us because we are so out of touch with the death process. And then I went through the hospice training so I could also have a better understanding of connecting and talking with those who were dying. And all of that was a huge journey for me. I ended up being on the board of the National Home Funeral Alliance to advocate that people could care for their own at the time of death. Which is basically like a return to 100 years ago when we used to live on land and we had our families and someone dies and the family takes care of that loved one. They dress them, they anoint them, they pray over them together, they sing around, you know, they have their rituals, whatever their cultural rituals are. And then they go into the back and they dig a hole and they bury their loved one and they have that opportunity to really have a somatic experience of saying, I have taken this experience. I understand what life is. I understand what death is. I've seen it. I've witnessed it. And I've got my hands in the dirt and helped my loved one return to the earth. And in that, new life can grow. You know, there is, you know, when you go body into earth in natural ways, then truly new life can grow from that life force, from that life form, from the composting or dying energy of those cells. So you can have something really powerful at end of life. And we just don't, as a culture here in the US, we just don't have that. We have no ritual, you know, around death or even a sense of connection to it. We pay a funeral director in white, you know, the white gloved kind of, let's make this real clean. Let's make this, you won't even see them. You'll, you know, we'll embalm them. We'll make them look beautiful again by adding makeup and puffing up their face and you know, dyeing their hair and those things, you know, for some people, maybe that's really helpful. So I don't have a, like, a judgment about it. But it's also a real disconnect that, you know, the first time I saw an embalmed body at a funeral, and you see little kids go up to that casket, it's a very, you know, jarring experience. First of all, they look oddly alive. They don't, quite look dead. They look kind of, you know, like they could just take a breath at any moment because there's pink cheeks on, you know, from makeup and there's lipstick and there's— it's a total disconnect. And so going through this process of learning about home funerals and being able to be more comfortable with death, I think is a big part of our rewilding as a culture.

Mm-hmm.

to feel more comfortable about living and less fear-based. So it's all connected. So here I am doing all this outdoor education. And yet my whole fam— you know, my family, my friends have watched me go through many, in this lifetime, many incarnations of what it is I'm completely passionate about. And I think what everyone in my close circle has realized is that the work I'm doing right now, it's all connected and it all makes sense. And it's kind of like my life story finally has— Some, some, like, has a thread of truth and, and, and like upliftment, upliftment for me that has been a healing journey and can be for others as well.

Very much a holistic outlook on all of these aspects of life.

Absolutely. Yeah.

So one of the things that I'm curious about here that you said was, you know, traditionally when someone would die, we would, we had rituals and things that we would do, take them and bury them in our backyards. And so I've read a little bit about There was a tax advantage there where basically someone's private property, if someone was buried on it, then it could no longer be taxed. And so one of the reasons the entire funeral industry came about was because it took away from that. And so it was a new way to tax private property. And so because then the entire funeral industry is taxed as a business and differently. So have you looked into any of that?

Oh yeah. I mean, the way our, the industry, I mean, they're actually, the funeral industry is different than the cemetery industry. They're two Oh, interesting. Although they often, you know, come together in one organization or one business. So the funeral industry is really the funerary services, you know, everything from being a licensed funeral director. So you might have seen this, you can have a licensed funeral director who's working with you, but they don't necessarily own a cemetery. They, you know, maybe they have a little, you know, they're just operating in terms of those services of meeting with the families and setting up, you know, kind of the, whether there's going to be a celebration of life and, and selling products like caskets, which are very expensive. They can be. And absolutely. And then, then you've got the cemetery industry that, you know, in order to become a legal cemetery has its own list of regulations and such. And so a lot of the work that I did that I got really excited about was green burial and conservation burial, because there are now legal cemeteries that are doing great work in returning humans to the earth naturally, especially the work of conservation burial grounds are really pretty interesting because you've got huge acreage of land that might be connected with a land trust. So they partner so that land is now protected and there's very minimal impact to the land. They're not bringing in big excavators to dig those holes. Everything has to be hand-dug with minimal impact and very big spaces like 10 by 10 feet so that if there's a tree root growing, you know, somewhere on the right side of that space, then you're going to dig a hole to the left side of that space so you're not affecting the tree roots. So there's also, you know, and then you can bring in, of course, plants and trees and shrubs that are, you know, local and going to help create new growth. So I think there's a lot of neat ways we can look at our customs around death and how we can do it better. And feel more of a connection on living when we can talk more easily around dying. And I have been still actively talking at death cafes. I'm invited periodically. It's an opportunity for people to come together and just openly talk about death, ask questions, share concerns, worries, anxieties. And I've often facilitated some of those.

Wow, that's fascinating. And so what is the primary difference between a green burial and a conservation burial?

So there's different levels of certification. A conservation burial is kind of like the top-tier certification of a cemetery where there is really this minimal impact. It's— you're working with hand-dug graves, or, you know, using shovels and such, but you're not— sorry, not hand, you know, with your hands, but, you know, it's very minimal impact. You're also, you know, there's no embalming. That's not an option. You're either buried in a shroud or a pine box or something of natural materials that can be composted into the land. You sometimes can't even bring in like, you know, maybe they'll use river rock as memorials, or maybe it's just something handmade out of wood, but you're not even bringing in any kind of major, you know, granite memorial of any kind. So it really— and then, You know, usually again, there's this idea that the land usage is really, you know, there's just a lot of rules around how that land is protected. When you get into green burial, it's a little more slidey. There's different, there's different kind of, there's, what am I trying to say? There's different certifications for that. But maybe that means still green burial, you're not going to have embalming again. And most likely you might be, a lot of green burial grounds are already connected to cemeteries. And they've just created a section of their cemetery dedicated to green burial. And so in that space, it may be that, again, they're not bringing it— they're not requiring vaults. The cemetery looks a little more messy. It's not as clean like a golf course.

Right.

You know, when you see the cemetery, they've got to bring in these big vaults to keep the land level and to make it look beautiful, and they have to water the grass. And it is really a— it's a natural— well, it's It's a disaster in terms of— it's an ecological disaster, really, just very similar to golf courses.

And it's growing. Yeah, because people are dying every day.

Oh, absolutely. And so, you know, maybe in the space of a green burial grounds, they're not using— they're using native plants instead of grass. They're not requiring vaults, but they are using shrouds and pine boxes or, you know, very simple materials so that there is a composting action happening. And then same thing, they're going to plant on top of that gravesite It would be native plants, and maybe they bring in different types of memorials. They might allow memorials and such. And some green burial grounds, that is all they do. It's like a green certified cemetery. And some, like I said, just have sections of their cemetery dedicated to, to having this type of burial.

Got it. Wow, that's fascinating. The other thing that you mentioned earlier that I really liked was talking about the somatic experience of death, because, you know, we are so Disconnected from it. You know, I feel like even like on Instagram, anytime there is a picture or something of someone getting hurt really bad, you know, they put the image over it that says it's blocked or whatever, you have to click through to see. So anything that seems violent or bloody or anything like that, and even within nature, there's an Instagram account, Nature is Metal, that they may be familiar with that, where it's showing in nature of like 2 animals attacking each other or eating each other. And so we are so disconnected from death. And In a lot of ways, we're disconnected from life as well with birth happening in hospitals and then death happening behind closed doors in a hospital. And so, all of this stuff is taken away from the home and the family unit. Love to get your take on that, just kind of that holistic outlook on it of just life and health and that practice in general.

Yeah. I mean, I was definitely— both my boys, I have a 17-year-old and a 19-year-old, and they were both born at home in my 500-square-foot cabin. And, my family was like, oh, you are such a hippie and you are, you know, certainly I've done an odd bird in my family for sure. But I think that's, I like that you brought in the birth and the death and this whole life cycle connection here because birth is messy, death is messy.

Yes.

The raw kind of nature of life is messy. And, you know, I'm not someone who, you know, if I'm scrolling Instagram, I don't necessarily want I know I don't want to see anything really violent or, you know, that's not something I want to see on, like, when I'm looking at a screen with my brain numbed out and kind of like taking in data without the ability to process it. So I do think there's a— I think it's a problem to be sharing really, like, violent kind of grotesque acts online because of the nature of where our brain's at in that moment. So, you know, we're not there, we're not part of what's happening, and we're just kind of witnessing it as a flash into our frontal lobe, you know. And then, and then we're, you know, after seeing a lot of those kind of things, which I think is also one of the problems with watching the news all the time, you know, if you're just constantly taking in devastation and disaster and, and not processing that in that somatic way without an outlet, I think there's a, you know, we can start to also create a poison In our own energy field and in our nervous system. And so, you know, for me, if I'm in nature and I see an animal, you know, 2 animals fighting, or I, you know, I witness a hunt, or I see death or birth, that is something I can then process and have kind of a direct relationship with and move through. And usually that means I'm also being physical. Maybe I'm hiking and I'm, you know, but I'm I'm moving my body, I'm taking in the whole scene and the why and the understanding of what's going on. And, I think that creates more processing for us than just witnessing in our screens what's being kind of downloaded into our brain because our brain's a big processing center. So, I do think there's kind of a problem there with all of the information coming at us with no real way to—

Process it.

diffuse or activate or create personal reality into our experiences if we're just spending too much time. I feel like I went on a tangent there, but like from your original question.

No, I think that's a great analysis just of like how we're taking in that information. But then as far as like that somatic experience or the rituals that we used to have that we no longer have anymore and kind of that holistic outlook on both life and death, you know, from dust you are, from dust you shall return, which then seems like this whole concept of green being burial and conservation burial, it's getting back to that a lot more natural and getting away from the big industries that have taken over these aspects of our lives.

Oh, absolutely. I do feel there is so much value in the power of ritual and having, you know, just some form of experience to create integration and truly like ceremony and ritual give us those things. And historically in different cultures, I mean, depending on the culture, there's usually, you know, there's community. Death is a community thing. It should be. Death should be a community thing. Birth should be a community thing. And it shouldn't be handled alone. And it shouldn't be handled, you know, to be processed alone. And the beauty about, you know, historically around cultures is there was ceremony around death. Community would come together, family would come together. There's handholding. There's crying, there's singing, there's dancing, there's music, there's drums, there's some form of way to have the somatic processing of grief integration. Yeah. And we certainly don't, you know, it's just that the funerary system, our funeral system doesn't— industry does really— their version of like, should we have a celebration of life is so bizarre in a way. Again, maybe you come to a funeral home and you have a viewing and you've got the embalmed body in a casket that you get to have 15 minutes. Because, of course, they actually will charge if, you know, for different things, you know, you might get a charge if it's more than a certain amount of time, or you might get charged if there's a certain amount of people. And so we've, we don't have that time to, to grieve. And in many cultures, this is why I believe home funerals can be very powerful. They believe that it takes the soul up to 3 days to leave their body. And so the family will stand vigil around that body for 3 days to make sure, you know, singing and holding space, holding vigil, holding, you know, candles and all sorts of things to create this sense of protecting that soul that's making that transition. And we just, you know, in a system where we say a death occurs and then you meet with the funeral director and it's like, well, here's our options. And you can embalm or not embalm. If you don't embalm, then that's, you know, dangerous for viewing. So, you know, we're going to make you embalm if you're going to want more than, you know, a day or whatnot. And that's really, that's just a way to make another profit because it's not legally required. You can have, you know, you can do your own cooling of a body using dry ice and different things. And you can have a loved one with you in your own home. In most, I think last I checked, it was most all states allow for home funerals. And you can do these vigils, you can have ceremony, you can do what used to be done in the old ways of making that connection. I just, that's why I became really interested in advocating this message because not a lot of people know their options because they don't talk about death until it's too late. And nobody, I'll tell you right now, I would not, recommend to anybody to not talk about this and wait till someone becomes sick or somebody dies, because that is the absolute worst time to have these conversations with others. I've seen it so many times where, you know, a family member gets sick and nobody wants to talk about end of life because they don't want to cause harm or stress or distress. And so no one talks about it. No one talks about it. And then And really, that, that can create all sorts of issues at the time of death. And then what happens after that, and how every, you know, wishes are honored and, and such, and what decisions are made, and even the amount of money that usually has to be spent. There is actually, when funerals offer these prepaid packages, you're considered either at-need or pre-need.

Mm-hmm.

So if they get a call, and it's like, hey, we have You know, someone died. Okay, well, here's the pricing once someone's died. If you say, I'm thinking I'd like to, you know, create a trust and think, start planning for a death, then it's probably about 30% less.

Wow.

You know, just these oddities that have made the industry what it is. And unless we talk about these things, you know, then we lose our own empowerment. Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing all of that. So, it's very obvious that you've done a lot of deep work on yourself just in personal development and otherwise just in the language that you use and in looking at all these aspects from this very holistic manner. So, I'm curious how nature has played into that and how has that been a means of personal and transformative growth for you?

Oh, it's been everything. Oh my gosh. One of the other things, of course, that we don't offer in our society on any kind of regular basis is a coming-of-age ceremony or a sense of, you know, we don't have these hero's journeys that give us the opportunity to come into our own. And I feel that young people are missing this. I feel that women who, and men, who have divorced and are starting their life life over are missing this. I feel that new moms are missing this. I feel that, you know, once you get to a certain age in your life and you make this transition when your kids leave the home, we're missing this. So there's so many phases of life that I feel deserve this kind of awareness of the transition and a new sense of empowerment in where we are in those phases of life. And And I believe that nature gives us holy ground, for lack of a better term, you know, a ripe, just warm, welcoming, raw, hard, all the things, place for us to truly feel aliveness at the different phases of life and come into our— into a place where we get to journey and come back a different person. Like nature gives us everything we need to have a good life in terms of what we can do when we're out in the wild, our engagement of the wild, and the opportunities of learning and integration completely, like full integration.

Yeah. So what have been some of those processes that you've gone through? And as a mother yourself, have you put your own sons through some of those coming-of-age rituals and processes?

Yeah. So my boys, like I said, are now 17 and 19. And we have our own version of what we've done to celebrate these things. My boys come out with me for sure. In fact, this summer, this next summer, I'm hoping that my oldest will be able to join me on some of— like, I actually want to bring him in and have him join a bunch of things. Him and I, he loves the outdoors. He's a kid. He's a young man, I should say now. He was a kid who would, from, you know, as long as I can remember, he would pack up, literally pack up a satchel just like his mom, pack little snacks, take a good big thick Lord of the Rings book, get his fire-making tools, a little axe, and then he'd walk up on the property and he'd find a little place he'd call a hovel and he would make himself a little fire and he would— You know, he'd bushcraft himself a fire, and he'd sit by the fire and read a book all afternoon. And that's who that guy is. You know, he's just—he's—he's really dialed in. My youngest is a little more techie. I think he just hit 100,000 followers on TikTok. You know what I mean? Like he's—he's very different. He's very different, but he'll join me on every time I'm like, "Hey, I'm doing a wilderness survival training. Will you come?" He's like. I'm like, totally. You know, he'll join me there, but he's that— he's very different in his techie side of things. So, we have a great— you know, it's great because I get to experience all that for this age and what they're going through.

Yeah. And, what about for yourself as far as different rituals or kind of those life-transformative processes that you've gone through that's helped you along that journey?

I feel that solos are one of the most powerful things you can do for yourself. That and probably some, a big dosage of psilocybin. Either one of those. I have a little experience with both of those. And both have changed everything. So, you know, I think nature gives us these magical tools to have breakthroughs outside of our personality and our ego. So I have really been interested in how to kind of break that kind of ego personality barrier. And I've been, you know, thankfully nature gives us some tools to do that. And but then of course, the opportunity to spend some time alone where you are, you know, completely unplugged and you make, you go through a night, maybe 2 nights, maybe 3 nights longer. I did a 7-day solo last summer. And that was after I I did a 50-day advanced woodsman training with the Survival University out in the mountains of Colorado. And, it was epic. Kind of the conditions of the course is that it is a teacher training. So, I went in the course knowing I wanted to be able to teach and educate. So, I took on the challenge and it's 50 days living in a primitive shelter that you build and 50 days of training of different kinds, working with primitive tools, really advancing your skills in fire and shelter and just all the things about wilderness living. And then, it finishes with a 7-day solo where they leave— you have a knife, you don't have a sleeping bag or anything but a knife. And, I had a ferro rod.

Wow.

I won the ferro rod or I earned it because I I did a skill during our 4-day backpacking down to this remote river. If you were able to transfer fire through the— on the journey, which I did, I was able to keep a ferro rod as one of my tools for the solo.

Oh, wow. That's fascinating.

Yeah. I mean, I could talk about that for like this whole time because that— it was a rich experience, but it gave me everything. It gave me, you know, all the fear of sleeping in the woods remotely with no one around, you know, miles before anyone else is around me. And that sense of vulnerability and hearing the animals in the, you know, like a screech owl in the middle of the night is terrifying. It's terrifying.

Wow.

But this kind of unfolding of starting to really what happens is your senses start to wake You feel more, you smell more, you hear more, you taste differently. You're not numbed out by anything. So you're feeling everything. It's an opportunity for emotions to purge. It's a feeling of, you know, the extremes, everything from missing, you know, feeling that like detox of life into then awakening to real life. And, the real-life opportunity of what really these down-to-basics of what it means to feed yourself, shelter yourself, bring warmth and fire for yourself, and how that feels after 7 days. I mean, I was weepy when it was time to leave. And, I actually struggled integrating back because it was a whole 50-day program. So, it was really living for a long time.

Yes.

And then, with the solo and having some epic, epic experiences, so many that it was hard for me to come back and then log into my computer and do all my admin work and go grocery shopping and, you know—

Sensory overload.

Totally. And it, and it, I kind of went into a little depression that I had to move through because it was, it was so simple. When, when, when your needs are met and you're the one meeting your needs, And you're not, you know, having to pay bills. I mean, not— I still had to pay bills, but not in that chunk of time I was offline. You know, I took care of those things. So it was like getting the opportunity to go like, okay, this makes a lot of sense. If I do this plus this plus this, it equals this result. And life makes sense. And it's the complexity of coming back into a modern world where it's really hard to make sense out of modern Agreed.

What you're talking about is a complete rewilding experience. I mean, you're going full force into it. And for most people, men and women, that is a very challenging and scary concept because we've become so accustomed to the modern conveniences of daily life. And so, I'd love to get your take on, especially for women who love nature and love the outdoors, but the concept, the idea of going camping, doing a solo trip even just overnight is Incredibly frightening, let alone 7 days. And you're in Colorado, so there's only black bear and maybe some mountain lions, um, you know, maybe some wolves. You're not, not talking like grizzlies like in, in Montana or, you know, Canada or something like that. But even so, that can still be a very frightening experience. So how did you overcome that yourself? But obviously you've been doing this for a long period of time, so what was that process like for you? Because you come across as someone very feminine, but also have this skill set that's very different than a lot of people, men included.

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually feel that, quick side note, I have felt the imbalance of my, you know, there's this feminine masculine energy exchange between, for all of us. And I've noticed when I kind of entered the world of being an outdoor educator and being an outdoor leader in a mainly male dominated industry, that first That first little section, and I still bounce into it, I definitely found myself being very out of balance, where I was trying to kind of overexert myself in a more masculine way to be seen and heard and taken seriously. And I know that I did that, and I know when I am doing that, I can sometimes kind of leech my energy into, okay, no, no, no, you know.

It's a great self-awareness.

Yeah. Well, it's a learning thing, but I've taken some time to really contemplate this. And I think it's when I embrace kind of my, just who I am and my feminine nature. And then just, I'm, you know, I'm unique. I'm my own person. I do things my own way and we all should. And when I do it, when I'm kind of being more authentic to who I am and teaching from that place or sharing from that place, I just, my whole outdoor experience is more vibrant because it's me and not me pretending to be somebody else. And I think that's important for all of us in our nature engagement. It's like, do it your way. You know, there's women, I think, who maybe feel intimidated to come and do a camping experience or a backpacking trip or an overnighter and, or take on bushcraft skills because they're like, well, you know, that's not me. I get my nails done and I, I do this or I do that. And, and, and maybe I'm a different personality that could help welcome them in, in a little bit because it's like, hey, there's no rules here. It doesn't— just because you love the outdoors doesn't mean you need to stop doing your nails. Like, like, get that manicure. You know, I try to get one every time I come out of the backcountry. It's like, you know, but it— that's, you know, that message isn't being shared, um, like across the board. Like you say, if you're on Instagram, most of the bushcraft and outdoor dudes are, you know, there's this kind of camo hardcore thing going on, and it may be a bit intimidating for a lot of women or moms to enter that space. And that's where I come in. And that's where I feel like my, you know, superpowers been able to get activated is that hopefully I provide a really warm and welcoming space for anyone who's interested or maybe intimidated to do this stuff to come do it with me. Because I have a good time out there. I mean, this is not about suffering. It's like, it's actually about having a great time and exploring our world more deeply. And so I have courses that I offer that are like 3-day, you know, intro to wilderness immersion or you know, intro to this, or, you know, I put on different types of classes that might interest different type of people. It may not be that just going for the solo on, you know, your first experience is really what's called for, but I can certainly help facilitate those things and we can build up to them, or we can just kind of go for it and I can be there to help facilitate. So, um, I, you know, I think that's kind of my role as an educator now is really getting to get juicy about what's— Yeah. You know, it's possible and how I can get more ladies in the outdoors. Or, but I don't even like to say ladies. I've worked with a lot of men who are maybe not even as comfortable going to some of the schools that are pretty militant almost. And they're just like, that's not my style. I, you know, I want to be chill and, you know, like I'm not, I don't need anyone yelling at me or saying if I don't complete this task, I can't go into the next one or, or it shouldn't be like that in my opinion. So I don't, that's not my kind of school.

Yeah, no, that's great. And then what was the first really transformative experience that you had in nature, uh, that took you out for an extended period of time?

Definitely. And, you know, I kind of already mentioned it, but starting at a young age, at 14, doing that 3-week, um, backcountry trip, finish Outward Bound and finishing with a solo because we, we did all sorts of stuff. I mean, we, we had to learn land navigation. Um, we were doing, um, we were We were using ice axes to like slide down, you know, mountaintops with on ice and stop ourselves with an ice axe. I mean, stuff that a helicopter parent would be like, oh shit, like, I would never send my kid to have this experience. Because I mean, I'm sure you have to sign some pretty gnarly waivers. But I'm so thankful that my parents were like, hell yeah, like, go do this. Because a young woman who can You know, triumphantly hike 8 miles a day, you know, eat very minimal, get on sleep on a, you know, on a mountaintop and wake up to a sunrise and learn how to start fires and harvest tinder and what's it called, rappel down, you know, rock walls. I mean, epic. You just You come back changed and then all those, you know, this is a coming-of-age thing, but all those things like high school drama, middle school drama, you're like, whatever, you know, I could care less about your friend group or what, you know, the gossip. I mean, obviously, I got, you know, I'm a teenager, I got intertwined in that stuff, but it certainly saved me from a lot of heartache and a lot of pain as a young woman.

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about Wild Kind Academy and everything that you do there and the type of courses and integrative experiences that you offer.

Well, I am constantly just adding classes as I feel inspired, or if I have a particular guest instructor who's, you know, offers something really cool, I'll bring them in. I'm just— I've got to launch my 2024 schedule because I haven't done that yet. But you're going to see classwork like Nathan Donnelly from season 6 alone will teach Blade School and Fire School. I will teach 3-day wilderness survival, kind of like an intro immersion course. I partner with the Survival University and their founder, Jason, Sometimes we co-teach. There's always a basket weaving class. I love to do nature arts. I teach foraging. I love to do an annual nettles class, all things nettles and recipes. I've done plant medicine classes. I've done fish tanning classes and had a wonderful instructor.

Fish tanning?

Yes. Yes.

That's not one you hear about too often.

Oh, it's so epic. Janie Chang introduced that to me. She's the instructor. And, it's literally using the whole fish. So, you may have a salmon or something and once you process that, well, you take the skin off and you put it in a black tea so that the tannins are tanning the hide basically or the fish skin. And then, you turn it into leather. I've made earrings and I've woven it into my basket weaving and done really cool stuff with the salmon skin or any kind of fish can be tanned. Yeah.

Whoa, that's fascinating.

I know. So, I'd love to have her back to teach that class. In Colorado this summer, I'm going to do a women's weekend for skills training just to come and camp for the weekend and learn the basics of wilderness survival and wilderness skills. I'm also going to take a group of women on a 4-day backcountry backpacking immersion where we'll be swimming in rivers, swimming holes, and learning all the skills and foraging and just laughing and coming alive together and having this experience. So, that's going to be awesome. And then, we have an all-group where it's men and women that'll do the same thing, a 5-day wilderness immersion. So, my schedule will align with the Survival University schedule because we'll be kind of offering that like I'm a satellite Got it.

I see. Yeah. Jess, do you have a favorite outdoor activity?

No. I have so many fun things. I mean, to me, that'd be like asking me what my favorite food is. So, no. And, if you were to look at my blog, my Field Notes blog, I think one of the things people notice about me, it's like, this weekend I'm fishing off the jetty of Washington. And, here I am, we're pulling up saltwater fish. And, next weekend I'm fly fishing in Montana. And now I'm shooting my bow and I'm, you know, practicing on my longbow or today I'm making an elixir out of Oregon grapes. So, you know, or maybe it's, you know, rafting or hiking or maybe it's just sitting and having a sit spot. So, I don't, it's not one favorite activity for me.

Yeah, got it. What does rewilding mean to you?

Oh, you know, I've kind of started moving a little bit away from that word. I used it all the time. It's everywhere on my website because it really made a lot sense to me in terms of how we could describe what is, you know, a process of how wild integration can literally change our lives. And wild integration to me isn't just about nature skills or being in nature, but I think there's a component to this about How we communicate in relationships, you know, a rewilding of our, of, of like truth. There could be a rewilding of how we are eating foods and integrating, you know, integrating foods that are local and that are maybe wild to you, seasonal. There could be a rewilding of our exercise and physical bodies. There could be, I mean, I could use that word very broadly of like, you know, as kind of a word that maybe we can get in concept. I read the book Rewild or Die by Peter Bauer, Michael Bauer. And he's, you know, he says that it comes from roots in anarchy. And so there's been different kind of places where rewilding is feeling like it's an appropriate word or not appropriate word. But what I'm just kind of wanting to move away from is anything that feels starting to feel dogmatic. And it's starting to feel a little dogmatic to me. And that's a like real triggering thing for me.

Yeah.

As soon as something gets where it's like, oh, that, yeah. At first it made, it was a word that helped kind of describe the vibe, which is, you know, well, it could be a conservation method that if you're taking forest land and you're rewilding it, then you're kind of letting it do its thing so that we're, you know, we have more biodiversity and all of that. And so it, you know, I think it has different applications. But if we're starting to use it in a way that just kind of takes the potency out of the work we're doing, then I'm, I don't know, starting to shift a little bit. I feel a better word that I'm starting to really get into is aliveness, because I feel like more people understand what that means, because we know what it feels like to feel numb. And to feel dead inside or to feel just non-attached or a sense of disconnect. And I think most of us know at some point in our lives a moment where we're like, this is aliveness. And that can come in the form of our relationships, of our physical health, our mental well-being. So that's kind of—

We all need.

Yeah, like that's, it feels like that has more resonance with me right now.

Yeah. What do you think about— I've been reading about how within kind of the bigger concept of the rewinding movement of taking, say, the DNA from woolly mammoths and that's been cryogenically frozen or they've uncovered it like at the Antarctic and they're actually genetically altering that and bringing them back, which—

Interesting.

I just read an article about this a couple weeks ago and I don't have all the specifics about what that process is like, but you're talking about an animal that was extinct for thousands of years and was never alive, to my knowledge, with any of the animal species that are currently roaming the Earth now, maybe crocodiles or something like that. And so, how do you feel about the concept of what is going on there scientifically? Because it seems like there could be some potential long-term issues that we haven't thought about yet.

Well, all I, I know nothing about this science. So all I could say is it gives me Jurassic Park trauma. That's all I got to say about that.

Yeah, exactly.

Like what?

I mean, not quite a T-Rex, but still.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I've seen that movie. I know, I know what happens to those people. I just, I think I just want to make sure I've got some sort of vehicle that doesn't have any electronics in it and some diesel set aside and that I can get out. And get a bug-out bag and then maybe okay.

Yeah, exactly.

As long as I can get out of town.

Yeah. Jess, how do you feel that we can live more harmoniously with nature? Because we've done so much over the years, it feels like it's us against nature as opposed to we are part of nature, we are nature, it is in all of us.

And often it's like this conflict, but how can we harmonize it so that we're living in harmony, in union with Well, that's where some of the cool concepts of the yogic path comes in and even what's possible for us in terms of our energy and how we have this incredible body that is, you know, regardless of kind of what your spirituality is, you know, there's different trainings that talk about, you know, whether you're talking about 7 chakras in your body or whether you're talking about heart-centered activities or a mindfulness practice or Or praying or, you know, whatever kind of your modality of—

Breathwork.

Yeah, connectivity is. What I kind of want to get away from is I don't want people to think that the only way to have this nature connection is you have to go do this epic, you know, have to be, you know, backcountry. I mean, yeah, that can be a lot of fun. And there's people who I think should do that. But, you know, my mom has MS. She can't go out and go do those things. And so, So, you know, for her to go even just sometimes it's about, you know, opening a window and gazing outside and watching the rustling of the leaves when the wind is blowing and closing your eyes and feeling a sensory experience. Because what is reality, right? I mean, like, I don't know. The deeper I go into this stuff, I'm like, well, reality is kind of interesting from a quantum physics perspective. Especially when you get down to plant medicine. Oh yeah, it's like, what is real? And what is nature connection truly? And what is our relationship as a physical being, physical spiritual being in this environment? You know, how are we making these connections? I think, you know, we all have our own ways of how we're drawn to feeling a connection. And I think follow your heart and follow that path. Because maybe for some people that means I walk outside barefoot and I get in the earth and I just let my toes dig in. And I have this, you know, I close my eyes and I can feel this surge of mana or this surge of, you know, prana, this life force energy like coming up into my body. Or maybe I feel I just need to get, you know, have a more mindful practice of my senses. So when I put my feet in the earth, I'm experiencing something more from a somatic place that makes me feel this something outside of my brain and the stress and the constant thinking. It takes me out of that and puts me in a more grounded place. And there's a lot of science behind actually grounding and what that can do for our physical body.

Yeah.

Or maybe you take in a sunset and what's happening to your eyes and the cones of light that are coming through, you know, that is also changing your frequency of your brain. So I really think it's a very personal journey what that means to connect with nature. And I just, I feel like there's a lot of different ways we can do that. And it's just really important to share with people to follow their intuition and their own form of what really makes them feel connected and just do that because it's going to be different for everybody. But the welcome, the invitation is there for everyone to find what that is that lights their fire.

What would you say to someone that has no desire to be in nature at all? They love their air conditioning and like having a constantly controlled environment and doesn't want to be walking around barefoot in the grass and just has kind of lived in a very sheltered modern life of this microwave culture that so many of us live in today.

Yeah, that's called zombie apocalypse. I don't have much more to say about that.

Okay.

No, I mean, you know, I think that there is a— it's unfortunate because in an addictive society, and we are, we have addictions to comfort and we have addictions to our shows and media and tuning out. And there's so much depression and there's drugs to help mediate all of that, which further numbs us out and further takes us out of alignment. And that's a hard state to be in and pull out from. But for those who feel that they are in that space and have any kind of, kind of like warmth somewhere in their chest or a stirring inside that says there must be more, I can promise them there is. And I would hope they find, you know, some breakthrough to get out of the haze of that illusion. Not that, I mean, some people absolutely need medication. And so I'm not anti-medication. I don't mean it to sound that simple. But I think that, you know, if you could truly those who could care, you know, literally living in the zombie zone, that's where we're seeing a lot. I mean, there's a lot of mental illness. There's a lot of violence. There's a lot of disconnect as a human. And not everyone's that way. But I think it opens some doorways for us to lose sight of our humanity.

Yeah.

We are humans. We're meant to interact with the natural world and we're not meant to be matrix puppets.

Exactly. Let's tell that to Elon Musk, huh?

Right.

What do you think is the biggest threat to conservation today?

Oh, the biggest threat. Gosh, there would be no one thing I could say about that because we have a lot of people on this planet. We've developed city centers. That are, you know, there's really nothing sustainable about these monstrous city centers that are not able to harvest or grow their own food or supply food for the inhabitants. I mean, with, you know, we could talk about food supply chain, how we grow food. I could literally go boom, boom, boom. I mean, mass monocrops, the things that we're doing are really out of touch. And so I think I can get really overwhelmed when I start thinking about, is there a tipping point and have we reached it? And is there any way we're going to be able to save ourselves from the overconsumption of our planet? I don't know. I do believe in miracles. And I do, you know, carry magic wands. So if I could say that there is some sort of multiverse, I actually also believe in the multiverse. So somewhere we figured it out on one of these planes of existence. And I would love to say we can move into that. Honestly, I do think it's like an individual by individual's awakening because the mass consciousness is not set up for us to recover from this. But with each individual, and so I could get overwhelmed with that. But the alternative to getting overwhelmed and saying I can do nothing This is too big of a wheel of destruction. I would say go have a high dosage of psilocybin and see with your third eye what's possible and break through this ego personality consumer-driven relationship we have to the earth or go stand out barefoot in the earth and get a download Or go watch a sunset and start to take small increments of, I think it is a self-awakening journey. Because the more we awaken and the more we feel and allow ourselves to feel, and that even full circle back to how we handle death. The more numb we are, the more we can't handle death. The more numb we are, we can't handle these problems we're facing in society today. But the more awake we are and the more we allow ourselves to feel, even if it's grief, even if it's hard, even if it's raw. Well, that's what this life is. We are living in a 3-dimensional reality of pain and suffering and joy and all the things. So, the more we can accept this and feel more, I do think there is hope for humanity.

Called being a full-spectrum human, right?

Yeah. I like that, full spectrum.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Jess, is there an adventurous experience that you have had in the wilderness that you would never actually want to repeat?

Oh yeah. Yeah. I have 2 things to say on that. One, I have now learned to be very— I now developed the leadership skills that when I go out with friends or on a hike, I've learned to not rely on others that they're the ones who know where we're going or, hey, it's just a day hike. So—

Famous last words.

Yeah, like, do we actually need to bring, you know, those things that would get, you know, that we would need with us if we, if we got lost or someone got injured or we had to stay the night? I mean, I've started to learn the importance of being a leader in the outdoors and we all need to develop that mindset. I'm really big on that, that part of when people come to my classes, that's the big thing I teach right off the bat around wilderness Adventure is is once you come to a class like that, you have to take the role that you're you're the leader of your pack from here on out. There might be people more knowledgeable than you, but they may make really bad decisions, and being able to have the strength to stand up to bad decisions or listening to your intuition, or if you see you know really dark clouds coming in and you're sensing that I think we need to turn around now, you know because next thing you know there could be flash flooding. But listening to those cues, being a observer, watching for when, you know, the weather changes or the energy shifts. Sometimes it can literally be an energy shift. And when I don't listen to those things, oh man, like, have I had some, you know, just lessons where it's like, never again, Jess. Just because there's a man out there with you who's got, you know, who's maybe, you know, whatever his thing is that he's like an outdoorsman The moment I am kind of go kind of like retract and feel like he's the leader and I don't make my own personal decisions of how we're going to do this out, you know, this experience. I've had those moments where I'm like, never again, because I actually know a lot and my intuition tells me a lot whether I'm prepared with gear or not. So that's one thing for sure.

Can you share a specific story about when something crazy happened or that when you didn't listen to that intuition?

Yeah. So I, gosh, but I don't want to like call anyone out. Let me think about this.

You can retract the names.

Yeah. Well, you know, I've had an experience where I was actually writing an article for some, it was an outdoor article on bike, on this biking, because I do contract out and do outdoor articles on different things. And I met with this man who was like, oh, you know, this is the path we're going to take. You get a bike, I get a bike, we're going to ride up here. I've done all these trails a million times. And I was like, oh, well, do I need to bring like any— do I need to bring anything? Or how long are we going to be gone? He's like, oh, we'll just be gone for like an hour. And I was like, okay, okay. And I was like, well, maybe I should bring my backpack because Because, you know, just in case it starts raining, I might bring—

In case.

You know, that whole thing. And he's like, oh, no, no, we'll just be gone an hour. And, I almost kind of felt like me going the extra was just, you know, like almost silly. Like, no, come on, like just let's go. And, I just didn't listen to that. Next thing you know, he didn't know where he was. And, we were up there, you know, and the sun went down. I was freezing. Luckily, we didn't end up staying the night up there. I mean, we found our way out, but it was just one of those things where I was like, just because someone says they know the trail, you know, just don't take second seat to your own gut and like, and being prepared for whatever you need anytime you go out into the outdoors. It's like, have what you need for sure.

That's great advice.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important.

No, I think I read that you really got into kind of a prepper mentality for a while. Oh yeah. Yeah. But not quite as in that world these days. Is that, is that accurate?

Not— yeah. I mean, I think it's wise for people to have 2 to 3 weeks of maybe food, water basics because clearly, we are in a day where natural disasters are happening all the time. Yes. And, we're seeing the results of being displaced or being without access to turning on our faucet or waiting for FEMA to show up with food. And I mean, that— to not understand our own vulnerabilities because of our modern society would probably be unfortunate. So I do think those things make a lot of sense to be able to have a mindset of knowing how to take care of yourself and your family if you realize that sometimes help may not be coming and anything could happen at any time. So I think that is a really important process of just feeling confident and feeling a sense of sovereignty around your own household. But no, I used— when I say I used to be a prepper, I mean, I had a neurosis. I was neurotic about it. I had a bunker and I had 2 years worth of food storage and water storage. And when my kids were young, I bought them every clothing size up until age 18.

Oh, wow.

You know, kind of expecting the big one. I don't even know what the big one was, but I really just had— I think when I became a mom, I, my protection energy around not wanting anything to happen. And it was right after 9/11 when I became a mom.

Yeah.

And so I think there was this kind of fear around the world, this world, our world being an uncertain place. And, you know, there was talk about just all these potentials of what could happen. And I had 2 new babies. And the last thing I wanted to do was any, you know, have anything happen that I wasn't prepared for. So So, I've moved away from the fear around it and have found these other ways that nourish that sense of being prepared. It's just in a more sustainable way.

Yeah. It does feel like there's a lot of fear and scarcity surrounding that entire industry.

Absolutely.

And so, as a company, we've never gone down that path just because it's all about quantity as opposed to quality. And my ethos is definitely more quality over quantity. But coming from that, always be prepared, you know, the Boy Scout motto, be prepared, or 2 is one, one is none. How do you justify that with kind of a minimalism ethic as well? So, because that's something that I've thought about a lot, and it seems like they're diametrically opposed in a lot of ways. So I'm curious your thoughts there.

Are you talking specifically about like gear to have with you or gear?

Because that's, that's kind of the direction I want to go next as far as like gear that you consider essential.

Yeah, I think it's really a great idea to keep a bug-out bag with you at home, office, or car, or when you're hiking or just going for a mushroom forage. In fact, mushroom foragers are some of the top folks to often get backwards in the woods, right? Because their head's down and—

Heads down, yeah.

Yeah, and maybe off and definitely off trail. So I think, you know, carrying some basic supplies is so simple to do, but it's the difference between life and death, I think, for sure. When I, you know, just in my car, I keep an emergency bag. I mean, I just think that's really, it's a very strong move. And I've lived in earthquake country in Washington State, or, you know, and if that big one happens that they are saying will happen, I certainly wouldn't want to be on Interstate 5, you know, by, I don't know, 40, 30 miles away from home.

Sure.

And wearing high heels and a skirt. You know, I feel like having— I always keep tennis shoes in my car, hiking boots. I keep a backpack with my essentials, everything I know that I need to have my basics covered of fire, water, shelter, food. I mean, those, you know, and some others.

And so, what is that essential gear that you always keep in that bug-out Yeah. Or get-home bag.

Sure. So, um, I, in my bag, I'm always gonna have— I mean, pretty much your 10, you know, your 5 C's, 10 C's. But me specifically, I keep a bushcraft knife, like full tang, because I can use that edge of that for, um— I can have a ferro rod and create sparks wherever I am. I don't need to worry about having a lighter if it's raining and my lighter's not working or the fuel goes out. I can always create sparks with a ferro rod and a 90-degree edge on a bushcraft knife. So those 2 are great. And that knife, I've already, you know, for me, I did a 7-day solo with my knife. I've made shelter with a knife. I've, um, I've done a lot with a knife. So I know what's possible when I have that tool and that you can't just recreate that in nature very easily or expediently.

Yeah.

Um, and so, um, also, so I also keep a little handsaw Because again, for making shelter or whatnot, or even just getting through debris, being able to have a handsaw and make shelter feels really important. I would also have cordage with me at all times because I can make it. I can make anything with cordage. I know my I know some great knots and know how to put up a tarp shelter. I don't carry a tarp because it's so bulky, but I do carry a rain poncho that has grommets, and that rain poncho is great because if it's raining, I can put it over my whole body. And everything's covered, and I'm now—it's my own version of shelter. It's got a hood. It's it's a shelter in itself, or and if it has grommets, I can make a shelter out of it with some paracord. You could fish with some the inner guts of the paracord. There's a lot you could do there. I would keep a headlamp with me for sure. I've certainly tried to do things at nighttime or at dusk, and it's really hard to do if you don't have light. So I I really invest in a good headlamp, and I make sure to have. like high lumens. You know, I don't mess around. Like, small little lumens are like, you know, like, don't tickle me. What's the point? Yeah. And duct tape. I always keep some form of communication. I mean, our cell phones are a form of communication, but clearly that is a weak link if that's all you're relying on for communication. So, I have, you know, I have a satellite communicator. I think I've— well, we've seen in recent kind of news events how I feel communication is really almost essential. I think having some way, if we didn't have cell reception, that's something to really consider. Some way to filter, I keep a stainless steel little water bottle with me and that's my container for boiling water. I mean, it's a water bottle, I can carry water, I can boil water. So having that, it would be important. Oh, I mean, those off the top of my head, those things would get me fire, water, shelter, food, having some food, having some electrolytes. Even I keep a little few packets of coffee, like instant coffee with me in my kit too, because if you're in a situation where that's really stressful, having coffee and chocolate and things that even if you're around family and young Uh, everybody lights up if you offer them M&M's. So, you know, no matter what stressful thing's going on, offer us, you know, offer me M&M's. Or, uh, if, you know, I guess I'll give them to the littles first, but then, you know, then give them to me.

Then Jess is eating them.

Yeah. So, my— in my family, we call those power-ups, those peanut M&M's. So, I keep— those are our power-ups. And, um, So yeah, I mean, just also I think that kind of the comfort side of waking up in the morning in a stressful situation, if you are in a survival situation, being able to boil water. I do, I have a Jetboil. I love my Jetboil. Being able to boil water and pour yourself a cup of coffee feels like—

That's huge.

Yeah, right?

Do you have any favorite outdoor brands who you feel like are just doing an amazing job of product quality?

So I haven't gone down too far the rabbit hole of being like a brand ambassador. I don't— you'll notice I don't do a lot of promotion of brands on my Instagram, but there are a few companies that, that I do love. And I've, I've worked closely with Wazoo Gear. I love those guys. I love what they're doing and how they're really building a lot of community around, um, the bushcraft world. Um, I, I really like, um, yeah, really like Dustin. So I've, uh, I, I like to wear his— he's got that little fire starter necklace that I think is really cool. Nice.

Yeah.

That I often wear when I'm doing outdoorsy stuff. And I love to show people that you can travel and get on an airplane with it and you can— you have a little ferro rod and a way to create sparks with it. You know, so I really like that. I'm a big fan of my sleeping system right now is with Warbonnet Outdoors. I got their hammock system and I love it. Love, love, love it. I love sleeping up off the ground and in a hammock.

Gotcha. That can get a little cold though too.

Yeah, I got there and I get cold fast. So I got their kind of most insulated, yeah, bottom layer, whatever they call it, the Woobie or something. But yeah, winter, it wouldn't be a winter solution.

Sure. Gotcha. Summer only. Jess, is there a book or books that have had a huge impact on your life?

Yeah. Oh, so many. I mean, I read a lot of books. I am currently reading a book called Diana, Herself, An Allegory of Awakening, The Rewilding Chronicles, Book 1 by Martha Beck. That one I would really highly recommend for women who are kind of starting their rewilding journey or alive journey. I love The Four Agreements. That's just a classic. Miguel Ruiz. I mean, even just that first agreement about You know, your word, speaking truth, uh, impeccable with your word. That one thing right there could carry an entire lifetime of transformation. Um, I— what's— what I just ordered that I haven't read yet, but I've heard great things, and it's my next book I'm gonna read, is The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life.

Great book.

Boyd Darby. Oh, have you read it?

I read it a couple years ago.

Oh, cool. Okay, so that's what's next for me. And I know that 2 summers ago, I really loved Michael Easter's The Comfort Crisis.

Got it.

I love that you asked that question because we're all book nerds who, for all of us, we're like, ooh, what's your top picks? Yeah, it's a good question.

Yeah, books and audiobooks, I go through a lot.

Yeah.

Do you have a favorite podcast?

No, sorry. I haven't watched much TV or listened to much audio in a long, long time. I've been traveling almost nonstop for 6 months. And, I've just found that when I'm not engaged with— what happens to me is when I've been so— what's the word— extroverted that when I'm not around people, I go extreme introverted and any kind of incoming stuff's been a little almost too much input. And so, I've had to take a long break from Because I used to be someone that would listen to podcasts, you know, like a lot, but I just, I found recently there's been a lot of stimulus and I've needed to have a stimulus kind of vacation.

Just a break from it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just what's one good piece of advice that you would give to our audience?

One good advice?

Yeah. One just based on your experience in the outdoors.

Oh, let's see.

To rephrase it another way. If you wanted to leave a legacy of something that you wanted people to remember you by, or that they would take action on, what would that be?

Oh, okay. Well, because we're talking about this kind of a spectrum of being and, you know, from the theme of our conversation here, I would say some advice would be to listen to the calling, those inner stirrings of your soul, whatever you want to call it, that kind of inner guidance system, whatever draws you to those little voices that urge you to wake up or to have an experience or to go for it or be bold, make bold moves, leave a job, get, you know, go on a hike that maybe is a little, you know, like, ooh, that would be outside of my comfort zone. Do things that that you feel like you're listening and paying attention to the inner guidance. Because whenever we don't listen to that voice, our life has impact on that. And we actually, I believe that when we're not listening to our intuition, we're not listening to our gut or the inner strings, that that sweet little voice, whatever it is, or that amazing voice, whatever that is, it's like it starts to stop trusting us that we're going to make a good call for ourselves. And maybe it gets drowned out, you know, and starts to go away. And every time we listen to that kind of inner gut feeling or those inner voices urging us to wake up and do something extraordinary for our own life, whatever that is, then it starts and we do it. Then I feel like it's like, yes, you're listening. Thank you. And then it's like, here's another one for you. Here's another one for you. And I feel I feel like we have all the tools truly to solve our own problems and have a good life. But it's truly, it's an inside job. You know, I don't really, it's not a guru job. It's an inside job.

That's great advice. And Jess, just to close, where can people learn more about you online?

Well, the website is wildkindacademy.com. On Instagram, I am Wildkind Jess. And I also have a business account, Wildkind Academy. On TikTok, I'm also Wildkind Jess, and there's a Facebook of Wildkind Academy. So, so one of those two are gonna get you somewhere. My Instagram is probably where I'm the most active with my own personal experiences, but please check out the website and subscribe to the newsletter because then you'll be updated on cool things going on.

Super. Well, be sure to include all these in the show notes so people can follow everything that you're doing and check out the Wildkind Academy and, uh, Possibly check out some of your courses and wilderness excursions.

Thanks, Seth. It's been so great talking with you. Yeah, some really cool questions, and thank you. Yeah, it's great. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you, Jess, for being on. And for everyone else out there, until next time, stay wild.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgear.com. rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.