Ep 46: Megan Taylor on Belay Expeditions & Ecopsychology

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to the Welcome to the Adventure Made Podcast sponsored by Rewild Gear. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Megan Taylor who goes by Belay. And, she is the owner of Belay Expeditions. She's a mountain climber, long-distance expeditionist, and extreme minimalist who was once entirely nomadic. She lives on the open road. She now calls Colorado her home. She's an entrepreneur, loves the great outdoors, and I was recently introduced to her by her brother-in-law on a hunting trip. And so, I'm super excited to dig into all things outdoors and adventures today.

Thanks, Seth.

Megan, welcome to the Adventure Made podcast.

Thank you. I'm so happy to, um, have connected with you via Kurt, and I'm— yeah, I feel really blessed to be, um, a part of your podcast. So thank you for having me.

Oh, you're very welcome. Super. Well, I'd love just to start off with a little bit of your background, how you got into leading outdoor expeditions, and just, you know, where your love for nature and the outdoors came from.

Yes. So I think, um, In terms of leading outdoor expeditions, it all started when I was 23 years old, which is— that's, that's when I say I was introduced to the great outdoors. Like, my father, you know, raised my sister and I on weapons. He would take us shooting, we'd go do archery. My father raised us on weapons. So he introduced us to nature. But I actually think that, like, My grand entrance into nature occurred when I was 23. And that was when I climbed my very first mountain, which just happened to be a Colorado 14er. I didn't know—

Oh, wow.

14ers were a thing. I didn't know anything. I didn't know that Colorado had 54. I had— I was a complete novice, totally ignorant. But I wanted to do— at that time, I was serving in the military. And I wanted to do something super epic with my life. I think I was feeling perhaps unfulfilled. So I wanted to do something like really epic with my life. And I turned to my then boyfriend. And I said, I want to do something cool, like run an Ironman, do an Ironman or run a marathon or something. And he was like, if I were you, I'd go climb a mountain. And I was like, okay. And the only mountain I knew was Pikes Peak in Colorado Springs. It's the backdrop to Colorado Springs. And I only knew Pikes Peak because my uncle and aunt lived there. And I would go visit them when I was like really young, maybe like 9 years old. And he would take me hiking on the foothills of Pikes Peak. So I knew of this one mountain in Colorado called Pikes Peak. And so I scheduled us to go for a weekend in August in 2008. And I had the best weekend of my life. He had the worst weekend of his life. He hated it. I loved it. I loved it so much that like 2 days later, I turned around and went and climbed Longs Peak, which is a totally different beast of a mountain, and one that's above my skill level, but I managed to summit and somehow get down safely. So that weekend when I was 23, And there's, there's like some big stories to especially Longs Peak that really changed my direction in life. But after Pikes Peak and, and loving the experience and feeling that I was good at it, right? Because my boyfriend did, he hated it. So I'm like, okay, maybe I'm good at this mountain climbing thing. And then going on to Longs Peak and actually being helped. I was the one being helped by a guide. He just happened to be on the summit when I just didn't know how to get down the mountain. It was almost like a guardian angel kind of thing. So he helped me down. And then at the end of that, I was like, not only do I like this, I want to help people like this guide helped me. So after that weekend, I Googled like every university in the nation. I'm not even kidding you, because I got deployed to Saudi Arabia. And had nothing but time to sit there and Google universities for 9 months. So I went to Saudi and I Googled every university in the nation who had some sort of mountain guiding degree. And I ended up— I whittled each one down by curriculum, like what their classes entailed and what I could use best in my life to make me a good mountain guide. And I ended up choosing Southern Utah University. in Cedar City, Utah for my undergrad in mountain guiding. And it was amazing. It was the best choice. And I'm their biggest advocate, whether they know it or not. I love SCU and their outdoor recreation program.

I didn't know that that was actually a degree.

Yeah, it is. So maybe per se, what you're not, what you're not going to see on your degree certificate is Mountain guiding, but you are gonna see outdoor recreation in parks and tourism. And with that, there's a lot of emphasis. So you have emphasis of mountain guiding, people who wanna go on and be mountain guides or own their own mountain guiding company. You have your park rangers, your Forest Service rangers, your national park rangers, the people that are, you know, in our government agencies helping preserve our land. Let me take these earrings off 'cause I think they're affecting the headphones. Um, You have your community centers, like your city community centers are recreation. And so you have the people who maybe don't want to go work in our parks, but want to stay in our city and help develop the recreation in, in inner city. So yes, there's a lot of different degrees that are very similar in name to outdoor recreation and parks and tourism. And you can in fact emphasize in mountain guiding.

Wow.

Okay. That's fascinating. So from that first experience climbing Pikes Peak and then Longs Peak and then going to school for it, how did that lead you into what you're doing now as far as leading these wild expeditions?

That's a good question. And that took probably over a decade to come to because it didn't come easy. So after I went to school to be a mountain guide. I wanted to be— and this is very like ballet. This is how my mindset goes. Like, if you're gonna do something, you might as well just, you know, shoot for the stars, like hit the home run. So I was like, I'm going to guide only the biggest and best mountains in the world. That's what I'm going to do. The Seven Summits, right? So I was like, in order to do that, you need to learn from those people.

Right.

And so I ended up doing my internship at Alaska Mountain Guides, who guided the Seven Summits. Now, I didn't guide the Seven Summits, but my world was people who guided the Seven Summits. I was just a mentee in training. So, um, I ended up, uh, guiding like day hikes and like smaller hikes in Alaska and doing like sea kayak expeditions. And what turned me off of guiding commercially Was I was on the exact same route every single day. I did the exact same thing every day. And so that I was like, I don't really know if commercial guiding's for me. I don't—

It's got a little boring.

It's just not for me. So I switched, like, um, switched directions. And I was like, you know, if I don't want to be a commercial guide, that's fine. I obviously love the great outdoors and I love the career field. So I'm just going to go teach. people to be mountain guides. I'm going to go back to become a professor. So after Alaska Mountain Guides and some, like, I did a thru-hike on the AT and some other things, but after that, I went back to get my master's in experiential education, which is teaching via informal pedagogy. So maybe you're teaching through an experience. And then because to be a professor, they really like PhDs. And so because of that, I then went to the University of Utah to get my PhD in outdoor recreation and parks and tourism. And it was during— so I spent, I mean, over a decade in academia, as well as teaching the students, like, to get my PhD paid for, I taught the bachelor students. So it was during my PhD program, That I was slowly getting more depressed, no matter what I did to try to remedy it. I think the first year of PhD school was incredible, awesome, novel, fun. I loved teaching. I had a heavy teaching load. It was really fun. The second year, I started to feel maybe more depressed, and so I would treat myself to long long-distance expeditions during the summertime, like the Pacific Crest Trail or something like that, or like a cross-country bike ride. So, I would use my summers to restore my soul. I was getting depressed in PhD school, but it was never enough. During my third year, I think I not only did like my summer expedition, we could take a sabbatical in PhD school for one year.

Oh, wow.

And no questions asked. They weren't going to ask you why. They just understand, like, PhD schools are typically for older people with families. And so they're like, if you need to take a year, take a year. So I took my year and I went and contemplated my future in PhD school and other things, and I went on a journey. So I did that and I came back, and as soon as I stepped back into the culture of academia, I got depressed again. Then I tried to, um, this is like where it really goes severely into depression. Like, I was trying to pull everything I could to fix it. Um, I was like, okay, my happiest days of my life are outside with a backpack on and just that, outside on the move, long-distance journeys. These are the happiest days of my life. I was like, I have to figure out how to bring that.

Mm-hmm.

into the city in PhD school because I don't think I'm going to be happy just living city life in an apartment somewhere.

Yeah.

So I sold everything I had. I got rid of everything. I really just gave away everything. I didn't really sell anything. I gave away everything I had. I went down to an RV. It wasn't good enough. Got rid of the RV, went down to my car. It wasn't good enough. Got rid of the car, went down to just my bicycle. And I was living in Salt Lake City on my bicycle. You could do it.

You could.

People just thought I was homeless. Um, and I understand why. So I was living in Salt Lake City on my bicycle with just the possessions on my bike, and I would cycle up into the mountains every day and I would sleep. And I would come back down to teach at a university, um, and go to PhD school, and it wasn't good enough. Uh, so I was like, okay, maybe I just like teach Um, online, do everything online. Because at this point it was like just dissertation phase. I didn't have to take any more courses. So I was like, maybe I just teach online and I can just travel on bikes. So I did. I went to Hawaii and I like cycled around Hawaii, and then I came back, all while teaching online. And then I came back to LA and I did this like grand Southwest tour of connecting 6 national parks on my bicycle, all while teaching online and pursuing my PhD. And it just Wasn't good enough. Every time I sat down to work on my PhD dissertation, I literally cried. I just couldn't. I was so burnt out. I couldn't do it anymore. So finally, somewhere in Texas, I had talked to a lady who was just the, I guess, the straw that broke the camel's back. She was just one lady too many. And she was like, I would love to do what you do. I just don't know how. And to me, doing what I do is just so easy. Traveling long distance is so easy to me. So I was like, so I was like, okay, I understand the barriers these people are having with getting into the great outdoors for intense lengths of time. I think I'm just going to step away from PhD school and start a business that helps people get into the great outdoors.

Hmm.

And being belay and only doing the highest mountains or the longest trails, That's what I— that's what my niche was. So I started Ballet Expeditions, who guides the highest mountains and the longest trails and the deepest canyons. So it was— it, um, from like, I guess— and the reason why this commercial guiding outfit works for me and the other one didn't is because I don't do the same journey twice. So on my calendar, Every year, you see my 3 favorite places in America. You see Capitol Reef National Park, you see the Uintas in Utah, and you see the Colorado 14ers. Those are my 3 favorite places that make my soul happiest. And every single year, I do like 8 journeys, and they're all different. And they're all in those places, but they're never the same. And so they're all like super magical and beautiful and very different from one another. And I'm not doing the same thing every single day. And so, plus being an entrepreneur and owning your own business, you wear many hats. And so I'm not just guiding every day. You do the marketing, you do the accounting, you do the everything. So you do the food prep and the gear purchasing. So I love what I do now, even though it is commercial guiding. And I thought when I was in Alaska Mountain Guides, I would never want to be a commercial guide. I love what I do now because I get to do so much more than just the same trail every day. So that's kind of a long story, but yeah, that's what took me there. Yeah.

Okay. There's so many directions I want to go with this right now. Um, so what is it about the changing it up every time for every, every expedition that you go on? And I also want to dig into why you call it a journey and not an expedition or a mountain trip or something. So maybe we can start there as far as like the, The verbiage that you use, because I feel like when I hear the term journey, that typically is around like a plant medicine journey or something where you're doing deep work on yourself. So I'm curious about your use of that term there.

Yeah.

So journey to me is almost like a transformational experience. You're on a journey into the unknown and there's inner change going on, and there's external changes going on. To me, a journey is just riding a roller coaster. And there's some sort of, I guess, transformational growth there. And I don't know how someone could climb a mountain, or do a long-distance journey such as the AT, PCT, CDT, any of those trails, or go bike across America or go kayak the Mississippi. I don't know how you can do something of that. grand extreme and not be transformed. You know, like whether your, your trail that you take is taking you to 14,000 feet, which typically doesn't come easy, or it's taking you 100 to 200 to 2,000 miles down, you know, into Mexico. I don't know how you're not transformed. I think on every outdoor expedition, outdoor adventure I've ever been on, I've been transformed for the better in some way. So to me, I think journey is just the appropriate word for what these adventures give to you. An expedition is something that goes from point A to point B. That's an expedition. And there's so much more. And even though I am Belay Expeditions, I'll tell you why I'm not Belay Journeys in a second. Um, Even though I am Belay Expeditions, I do feel like my expeditions offer so much more, um, on the inside, which to me makes them a journey. Uh, and the reason why I'm not Belay Journeys is because if you— this is terrible, but it's just, it's just a habitable thing— if you abbreviate Belay Journeys. I don't, I don't like these. I don't like—

Fair enough.

I chose Belay Expeditions because I also think like there's something to just being like, just be, you know, or be simple, be outside, be in pursuit. And it just so happens that Belay Expeditions abbreviated is BE. So I tend to really favor BE. Over BJ's.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

That reminds me of I was in Texas one time and I saw a sign that said BJ's Erector Sign Erector Company. I was like, did you put some thought to that or no?

Either way, it what what's what it it doesn't even stop there. So a lot goes into the name of your company, as I'm sure you know with Rewild Gear. A lot goes into the name every— because there are people like, well, if your name's Belais, shouldn't it be Belais Expeditions? And I'm like, type that into the URL and what you see is Belais Expeditions. You don't see Belais Expeditions, you see Belais Sexpeditions. And so a lot went into choosing my name.

That's an entirely different type of journey, which would probably be just as fun.

Different.

Totally different. So what I find fascinating about this and the usage of that term with journey, I had an experience over the summer actually on some plant medicine where I've always considered myself prepared for everything. You know, I'm the guy that is always situationally prepared and has all the equipment and all the gear. And part of that, and my favorite thing is just to go exploring. And just to go on adventures. And I had this realization while on this journey that part of what I love about the outdoors and the wilderness is the unknown. It is that adventure, and you don't know what you're going to find, what's going to come around the next corner, around the next bend. And so, when you're prepared for everything or you plan everything out, it loses that sense of adventure and the unknown that we crave so much by being in the wild. So it was a really big realization for me and trying to balance all that out because I like to be minimalistic as much as possible, but I also like to be really prepared. And so trying to balance those two often feels like they're at odds.

No, I agree. I think— but I think there's that quote that says, if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. So I think even going into the great outdoors with some sort of minimalistic plan, um, at least you're setting yourself up to succeed in some way. Like, you're, you're never gonna know what's gonna come about on that journey. I mean, I might guide, you know, the same Colorado 14er 20 times, and 20 times I'm gonna be sleeping in different places, and 20 times I'm gonna be seeing different wildlife and Yeah. 20 times you're gonna have different weather. Sometimes it hails and snows. Sometimes, you know, it's just daylight and sunshine and rainbows. Like, you never really know what the great outdoors is going to give you. And there is such a— there's always an element of the unknown. And that's what is so great about it. But I think it's, you know, I mean, I guess if you're a survivalist, if I don't identify as a survivalist, So, I mean, I guess if you're a survivalist, maybe they can truly go out there and just live off the land and forage and build fire out of nothing. And right. But I mean, if you're, if you're not really a survivalist, then I think having some sort of plan is setting yourself, setting yourself up for success in just a little.

Yeah.

I'd agree with that. So when you are planning out a trip, So, a journey, an expedition with a group. And, how big are the groups that you're taking out typically?

I would say anywhere from a handful up to 15. So, mostly it's a small intimate group, less than 6, but I do have some journeys that are greater than that. And, a lot of times, it's not even me who decides, it's the land itself. agency, like the National Park Service is going to cap you at 12 people, and that includes your guides.

Ah, okay.

Um, the Forest Service, depending on whether it's wilderness or non-wilderness, is going to cap you at a certain amount of people. BLM is the same way. So it's not just me who decides my maximum group number. It's the federal agencies that I'm working with because they want to make sure that they're providing solitude for everybody, not just me.

Yeah, because you got to get the permit and all that stuff as, as a guide. Got it. And so what does that process look like as far as your own preparation or how you prepare the group that you're taking as far as the equipment, how much they'll need, and preparing for the unknown, but also being as minimalistic? Because when you're carrying everything that you need on your back for a week, 10 days, however long that journey is going to be, what does that look like for you to make sure that you have everything that's needed?

Well, I'm a big believer in teaching you how to do this on your own, right? You have to think about why I even started Belay Expeditions, and it was because I heard too many times, I wish I could do that, but I can't for X, Y, and Z reasons.

Mm-hmm.

And so when I started Belay Expeditions, I went into it with the goal that I was wanting to teach people how to do this. And because there's a learning element and you're going to do this yourself element, everybody carries their own individual gear. So everybody has their one-person tent, everybody has their Solo, you know, Jetboil stove. Everybody's doing this. Like, I've been on so many trips for college where it was a group trip and we had group stoves to cook. And I never learned how to cook in the great outdoors. Because I always just let somebody else do it and I'll walk away and do something else. So I intentionally make sure everybody has their own gear. And I believe in simplicity. You know, the more weight you carry, the harder the uphill climb is going to be, the slower you're going to go, the, the more your body is going to ache. So we carry what I would believe the bare essentials to be for a happy, comfortable journey in the great outdoors. So everybody carries their own gear. And in terms of food, I don't do dehydrated prepackaged meals. I don't think that teaches anything.

No.

I think it's really easy to go spend $7 at REI and get yourself a breakfast. But I don't know what that's teaching you, how to prepare a meal in the great outdoors. So I go and I, you know, buy all of our foods from the local grocer. And I prep it somehow. I prep it to an extent before the trip. But then we split up all the foods and everybody's carrying their own food. And what we have out there is what you would actually have at home. Like, we have good food out there, like a lot of fresh produce. I think there's this idea in the wilderness that you don't get fresh produce and you have to eat lightweight, dehydrated meals, and that's just not true. So we eat fresh produce and we eat a lot of good, a lot of good food, nutritious food. But, and they're cooking it themselves. Like, we might sit around and we all might chop together, but everybody's boiling their own stuff or concocting their own meal. So, um, I mean, I guess, and that's, that's all you really need, right? When you go out into the great outdoors, you need your gear and you need your food. And so everybody has their own personal sets of gear that I provide for them. And then everybody is helping carrying the food that they're all going to cook on their own.

Yeah.

So it's a lot of learning that takes place. I don't— I'm not a glamping business. I don't I don't think, I don't think I'm an entertainer. And I don't think that I, and I don't like doing everything. That's exhausting. So, and I think people want to help. Like, at the end of the day, people like on their feedback forms, like when I do it, when I request like testimonials or something, sure, they, a lot of the times my feedback is we would have liked to help more. And so I think people want to help and they want to learn. So yeah, there's a lot of learning that takes place on our journeys.

What's an example of required gear that you want everyone to have and the type of food that you'll bring to cook?

Yeah. Okay. So required gear, we have freestanding tents. Okay. So no stakes needed. You know, no, they're not needed. So we have freestanding tents. I'm a huge fan of Big Agnes's Copper Spurs. I'm a big fan of REI's— I think it's the Quarter Dome. But we have freestanding tents. They absolutely have to be waterproof. Nothing— the most important to me, the most important part of a journey is the nighttime when you sleep. Nothing can ruin a journey like horrible sleep. So the tent has to be waterproof. We have sleeping pads, like inflatable. Women's hips turn— are prone to ache more than men's hips at night. So we have awesome sleeping pads by Sea to Summit. Sea to Summit rocks their sleeping system. We have sleeping bag liners, they're fleece by Sea to Summit, that adds an entire season. A lot of companies Uh, they false advertise what their sleeping liners add in degrees, and Sea to Summit doesn't do that. Their, their fleece liner is awesome. It adds a season. A sleeping bag, of course. Um, Big Agnes is awesome with sleeping bags. Um, everybody has their Jetboil stove. I'm loyal to Jetboil. I know that MSR does a similar style. I just never tried it. I'm pretty loyal to Jetboil.

I love my MSR Reactor. That's great.

You do?

Yeah.

So I just haven't tried it. Like, they're awesome things. And then of course, you know, your, your clothing, everybody has to bring a base layer. And then they're heavy, like their jackets, beanies, gloves, wool sleeping socks, boots, and, and then shorts or tank top wherever we're at. So I think I keep it pretty minimal. I think if you were to compare my list to a survivalist list, it'd be very different. But in terms of ultralight backpacking, we do stay, um, very minimal items. And I do try to stay on the lighter end. I do realize that a lot of ultralight things are really fragile, therefore they're not durable. Therefore, to me, that's not practical. So some things I might be on the heavier end of, like my sleeping pads are a little heavier, but they're also really durable.

Yeah.

So I try to stay minimal in the items they carry. And if it's possible, then I try to stay ultra light, but sometimes it's just not practical.

Got it. And then what type of food are you bringing with you?

Well, I think my favorite dinner is like this fancy ramen. Okay. And it is, it's ramen with like shrimp or soy, but we bring a bunch of fresh produce to add to it. So we bring fresh bean sprouts and eggs and kale and jalapeño and cilantro. green onions, seaweed. We bring all of the produce fixings to make a pho, and it's delicious. We usually have it on our first night. You go in order of your fragile produce, so, you know, heartier produces get eaten later in the week.

Yeah.

You know, breakfast might be like a savory grit with like cheese and chicken broth. and green chilies and like a buttered grit. Lunches are always kept cold because usually you're on the move. So lunch might be like a really fun chicken salad wrap or whatnot. But every single, every single meal has fresh produce, every single one.

Wow.

And I think what, you know, Belay Expeditions is really big about beverages because I think things Beverages are just like a simple joy in life, a simple pleasure in life. And so like, we're really big on our choice of coffee in the morning. We're really big on our evening tea at night. So oftentimes we won't do dessert, but we'll do a really delicious evening tea. We're really big on our Summit beers. There's a lot of thought that goes into our beverages, actually. Like, we don't just do any beer or any coffee or any tea. It's very specific.

So, so you're packing cans with you?

Everybody packs one can for the summit. And if they're not on a summit, you know, mountaineering has a summit involved, backpacking doesn't necessarily. So, and if we're on a backpacking journey, then we usually leave it at the, the last trailhead, and we'll have a celebratory beer at our very last Trailhead. So yeah, we're really big on beverages.

I think one of the greatest joys in life while camping is that first cup of coffee. Just that first— when you're sitting around a fire and you made the coffee and still cold, maybe it's really cold, and it's like one of the most amazing experiences.

Coffee In the great outdoors, in a tent, for me, um, is my favorite moment, I think, in life. I love hiking. I love riding my bike. I love standing on a summit. I love all of that. But there's nothing like in the morning time, making yourself a nice, like, fresh cup of coffee and just savoring it in the morning before you head out. Nothing like it.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I've got a running joke about coffee late while camping. So me and my brothers always call it crappy camping coffee because usually, you know, you're not drinking anything good, especially if, you know, you're going in the backcountry or whatever, and often it's instant or something. So I've gotten away from that from where I first started, uh, but I always like to call it crappy camping coffee because that's typically what it is.

Yeah. I, yes, I think so. When I'm, when I, uh, I think at first I would do like the Starbucks instant Vias, um, or just like a Folgers, uh, instant coffee. But my journeyers, they get French press coffee. They get, oh yeah, they get like good coffee out there.

You know, and so the MSR Reactor stove, it actually has an adapter that'll create a French press with it, which is pretty cool.

You have it.

It works really well.

Yeah.

So where did the name, nickname Belay, come from for you?

Okay, so Belay is a nickname given me, given to me from my time on the Appalachian Trail. And a lot of people hear it and they think I'm a rock climber. And though I rock climb, I am not an avid rock climber by any means. Belay was given to me because when I set out on the Appalachian Trail in September of 2011, I was broke as a joke, like college student. I had nothing, but I did have some outdoor gear. And so I hit the trail with just anything I could gather. from home without having to buy. And with that, um, my bear line— because you're in the Appalachians, so it's, you know, smart to hang bear lines with like parachute cord or 3mm cord or whatnot— but I used a rock climbing rope and it was bright orange. So I packed a rock climbing rope and it was bright orange, and that's what I hung my bear bag with. It was my very first long-distance expedition experience. And so anyways, one night when I was in Maine at a shelter with my hiking partner, 2 older gentlemen walked up to the trail. One's name was Papa and the other name was Bear. But they walked up to the trail or the shelter and was like, did you see that person's bear bag? You could like belay off of it. And I guess by the look on my face, they knew it was mine. So they were like, your belay, because trail names are usually given to you. And so they're like, you're Belay. And so after that, they— everybody called me Belay. And the reason why I've never changed it is a few reasons. One, it's pretty. It's a pretty name. Second, there's no other Belay. Sometimes trail names you hear over and over and over again. So like Faceplant, you can— you know how they got it. And there's a lot of faceplants out there.

Yes.

But I've never met another belay. And then also, belay is a French term, and it means to support or to anchor.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think it's very fitting given my career aspirations, whether it's as a mountain guide or a professor. There's always been a part of me that's just wanted to support or to anchor people in the great outdoors.

Yeah.

So I have kept belay for, you know, 13 years, 12 years, but it was given to me because of a ginormous rock climbing rope that I brought as a bear line.

That's a great story.

Yeah.

So I can tell you definitely have the heart of a teacher and obviously why you originally went into education, to want to teach people. So When you're leading them on these journeys, what wisdom are you trying to impart? What are you hoping that they leave with? What kind of experience, what new knowledge or appreciation do you hope that everyone gains from what they're learning from you?

Less is more. I think, man, I think our society is just Gain, gain, gain, acquire, acquire, acquire, spend, spend, spend to be happier, happier, happier. And I don't think any of that works. I think it just leads us more into anxiety and depression, and the research backs that. So I think, you know, at the end of the day, my PhD studied happiness and depression in the great outdoors through the lens of materialism. So the research shows that the more we have, the happier we don't get, and the more money we make, the happier we don't get. And depression rates continue to increase in America. We are not dipping in depression. Anxiety rates continue to increase in America. We're not dipping in anxiety despite all of the counseling available and all the meds available. It's not decreasing. And we continue to become more of a materialistic society and just Want, want, want. And I get it. When you buy something for materialism, it gives you like a shot of happiness. It gives you a shot of endorsements, and it's just not long-lasting. So the remedy is just go buy something again, but it's not long-lasting. So, and the research shows that experiences are long-lasting. You can go experience something in the great outdoors and recall it 20 years later, and most often Not only will it bring you back to that moment and make you happy, you forget the miserable parts. You only remember the happy parts. And so, and my clients, they can attest to that. They can have a journey where they're frigid and they can't wait to get off the mountain because they're frigid. But if you ask them 2 years later, they're going to say it was the best experience of their life and they're going to cry about it. And I'm going to be like, did you remember the weather? They're like, no. They forget about the painful parts. And so like experiences have been shown to not only bring endorphins to you, but have long-lasting endorphins in the future. And all that just to say, like, I want people to go into the great outdoors with just a minimum, a minimal backpack on full of 20 items. and their food and water, and they're going to have a great experience. They will. My journeys are beautiful, but it doesn't even have to be a Balee Expeditions journey. If you go on a journey in the great outdoors, you're going to have an amazing time. And so my, my goal is to have them realize that they're having this life-changing, beautiful experience with nothing on their back.

Hmm.

Except 20 things. And they're having this life-changing experience without being distracted with social media or obligations or whatnot. It's just life in the great outdoors is simple. It is— you're just present. You're just there. You're just being, and you're being there with nothing. And people have the best experiences of their life out there. And if they can just make that connection Then hopefully they can go back home and realize they don't need all of this fancy stuff to be happy. They just need a few things to be happy. And so my goal is that they realize less is more. And I do it primarily so they can realize happiness doesn't come from things. But also, it just happens to better our planet. You know, consumerism is killing our planet. And so— I think if they can— my hope is that not only do people realize that less is more for happiness, that they're also doing good to our planet by consuming less. Yeah. So it's just a win-win all around.

Yeah. It's interesting that we're recording this on Cyber Monday when it's one of the biggest— it's one of the biggest consumer spending days of the year. And, you know, as an e-commerce business owner, I'm part of that. And it's one of those things where it's like this double-edged sword because as a business, you do have to sell something. And but for me, trying to balance that out is like for Rewild Gear, we want to make the highest quality equipment so that people can buy once and cry once so that they don't have to buy so much other stuff. And I'm— my entire life, I've constantly been on this search for perfection, I guess, which isn't necessarily the healthiest thing. Because I think there's a balance and a trade-off of wanting the best and wanting less, but you're always looking for the next thing. What's going to get me there to that end goal as opposed to realizing it's a journey? And like a couple of days ago, I was at REI and I was looking at some new ski equipment and jackets and things. And okay, you've got Arc'teryx who makes these amazing jackets and parkas and they're incredibly expensive. And it's like, okay, if I buy this, how long is this going to last me? And is it going to replace the older North Face one that I have? And is it worth spending $450, $500 on a shell? And so, it's this constant trade-off of trying to find the highest quality things so you can buy less, but also looking at from the budgetary side of how much you're spending. Because I think there's so many companies that it's just planned obsolescence. You're going to buy something, you're going to use it up, and then you're going to buy another one as to thinking about the longest-term usage of that. And does it make that business viable in the long term if that's how you have it set up? And I don't know, these are conversations that I'm constantly having with myself and with other entrepreneurs and business owners and just discussing these things because as you said, we are really hurting our planet with— especially with all the single-use plastic and the pollution and water and air and soil and all that. And that's— I'm incredibly passionate about that. So, love your thoughts on trying to find that balance.

And I think it's a really hard balance to find when you're a business owner, because we do have to make a livelihood. And we do end up having to sell things. And I'm fortunate in the fact that I sell experiences and not tangible products. But, but at the end of the day, I do have a shop on my website that has like tangible products. So I have stickers, and I have like a to-do list, because I'd be in pursuit mindset. I'm very growth-oriented. Like, I, like you, I'm always striving for the next thing, which can be a double-edged sword sometimes. It takes you out of just being present and happy. But, but I think for me, I've had to— as someone who used to have nothing but the items on my bicycle, and now I have a business that has a rental gear fleet.

Yeah.

That's substantially different, you know.

Yeah.

I teach simplicity, but I have an office in Lake City, Colorado, full of sleeping bags for people. So this is something that I've really struggled with. And I had to just, like, figure out, and I think I still wrestle with it a little bit. But for me, I had to think about what is important to me? And what do I value? Well, what I value is that my people have the best gear that makes them happy and comfortable when they're in the great outdoors. And if that means I need to have an office that can store those items for them, I will do that. Like, I have no problem acquiring things for Ballet Expeditions so that my people have the best time when they're out there.

Yeah.

For me personally, I have no personal items. I had to separate Ballet Expeditions from ballet. And so for me, I'm sitting in my, my, I'm sitting in my partner's apartment right now in Baton Rouge, right, visiting him for the winter. But everything is his. Nothing is mine other than like some— a few items of clothes, my laptop, my phone. I only have a backpack full of things. I come here with a backpack full of things. So for me, I had to like figure out, um, what is it that I need for myself and what does the business need? And for me, I still only own a backpack full of things for ballet, but Ballet Expeditions owns a lot more for the clients. Um, and then also, I mean, like, for you and for me, like, we have a shop full of tangible products, but I don't think there's anything wrong with selling what we believe to be necessary.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So I'll get people who are like, you should sell t-shirts. And like, I actually don't believe they're in t-shirts. I don't think they're practical for backpacking. I don't think they're practical for mountaineering. I don't believe in t-shirts, so I don't sell t-shirts, but I will sell a beanie. I will sell a to-do list that I use every single day. So there are things that, like, I find personally very practical and necessary for my life, or maybe Ballet Expeditions' life, that I don't mind selling to people. But I don't just sell anything because I don't believe in everything. Yeah. You know, I get a lot of people who are like, you should sell, um, uh, ball caps or, uh, bumper stickers or whatever. And I'm just like, but to me, that goes against my values.

Yeah.

So I think it's a really hard thing to, to, um, I think being simple is a hard thing to do as a business owner, especially on Cyber Monday.

Yeah.

Right now I have a 15% off all journeys. And I'm okay with that. Their experiences, I'm okay with that. Because at the end of the day, you know, materialism does go with consumerism. They're different. Materialism and consumerism is different. But they do go together. And at the end of the day, like, as much as I want to be cautious of consumerism and materialism, I also want my people to buy my journeys at a more affordable cost. Like, I want them to receive a discount too, you know? So I think I'm okay with Cyber Monday because I do think people deserve a little break every now and again.

Yeah.

Have you found that this philosophy has hurt your business in any way because you're either leaving money on the table or you're not doing some of those things that can help you to, to grow the business more?

I think both. I think that there's a lot of things I could do that could help grow the business, but I also know that If you don't live your values, people notice.

Yeah.

So long before Belay Expeditions, I was just Belay. And Belay traveled outside, she lived with nothing, she taught simplicity, and she taught living a life in pursuit long before there was ever Belay Expeditions. And if I just change my values because I'm a business now, everybody's going to notice. They will, and they're going to say ballet's changed or, you know, whatnot. And then I'm going to lose supporters because now I'm like almost fake or just not living my values that I've taught all along. And even when I was a professor, I taught those values. So if I just change because I'm a business, people will notice, and I think that will hurt my business more than anything. Additionally, if you just jump— if you become a business and you just jump on board with all the other business practices, aren't you just going to be like all the other businesses? What's going to stand you out? So that is why I'm like really big on identifying my 3 values of be outside, be simple, be in pursuit, and just let that guide everything I do. Because if I don't, then what's going to say I don't look like Knowles, or I don't look like Outward Bound, or I don't look like Backroads, or I don't look like what every other company looks like? So I do think there are things that I could do To help my business grow. But I also think that if I don't stick to my values, people will notice and that will actually hurt me more in the long run.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. Talk a little bit more about those 3 values, how you came to those and how you present those to the world and to your customers who are going on the journeys with you.

Yeah. So those values actually took quite some time to think about, kind of like the Ballet Expedition name. And you really have to go through, like, words. So I had a small business coach. He was a friend of mine. He happened to be a small business coach. And he helped me start my business when I was doubting myself. And he was like, because of course, I'm like, I'm thinking about starting a business, a mountain guiding company. But, you know, the world has a million mountain guiding companies. Do we really need one more? And Kevin Ramone would be like, yeah, but you know, there's only one belay. He's like, there might be a million mountain guiding companies, but there's only one belay. And he goes, what I would encourage you to do is identify your values and go from there, because your values are not my values. And my values are not Seth Spears' values. And right, like everybody has their own guiding values, their own values. He's like, identify your values. And with that is what's going to separate you from the other million mountain guiding companies. As long as you live them. And so I sat down and I thought about values. Now, of course, research is going to say 3 to 7 values. I like the number 3. I think it's simple. So I did 3 values and I thought about what are the 3 things that really that I live by. And one is outside. I believe being outside is The biggest teacher of all. Being outside teaches you to be simple. Being on an outdoor expedition is instilling being in pursuit. So being outside is like the mother of all the values, is to be outside. And then be simple, one, in a city, of course, but also in the great outdoors. I think that, you know, the more simple you are, the greater heights you can achieve. Not only, you know, in the city life, but also in the mountaineering world and in the long-distance world. Like, the less you carry on your back, the further and higher you can go. And, um, and then of course, being in pursuit is the idea of always having a goal that makes you better, which is what you and I have the mindset of. I Really struggle with the idea of contentment. I really struggle with the idea of settling. To me, I think we should be striving to be better every single day and in some way, shape, or form. And with that, so the be in pursuit is just being in pursuit of your dream or being in pursuit of a goal or being in pursuit of betterment. And so I almost look at the 3 values as Like, where? Be outside. How? Through simplicity. And like, um, why? To like be in pursuit, um, of a better life. So yeah, I just think those are the 3 values that, um, help me be a better person. And the belay— the Belay Expedition's motto is to be you better.

Be you better.

And I just think those 3, like, well, not just be you, right? Because there's no, um, element of bettering yourself. If you're just be you, then where's the growth mindset in that? So we are Be You Better. And I do think that like the outside, being outside and living simply and being in pursuit helps you be better. But the words themselves, uh, was difficult, right? Is it be outside? Is it be in nature? Is it be outdoors? Is it be in the wilderness, right? Is it be simple? Is it be minimalistic? Is it be, uh, is it preserve or conserve? Um, be in pursuit. You know, there's a— you can play with a bunch of synonyms. to all those words. And I think that was the hardest part of narrowing it down to what word actually I believed in most. Yeah, right. I struggled with, uh, if being sustainable was a value. It should be. Yeah, being sustainable should be every single person's value.

Agreed.

But at the end of the day, being sustainable didn't cut— it didn't meet the 3 values. Being sustainable just happens to be this awesome outcome to my values, right? If you're simple, you're sustainable. So sustainable, being sustainable never was a value. I thought it should be, but it never made the list because it ended up being an outcome, a bonus outcome to being simple.

Yeah.

Got it. So yeah.

Yeah. I'm really fascinated by having a core set of values and it's something that I've Personally been digging into a lot lately. And I had a conversation with my brother a couple of months ago now, and he asked, what questions do you want to leave, or what values or skills do you want to leave your kids when you're gone? I started thinking about this, and like the skill set, I started really thinking about the different skill sets that I want to leave with them. And a lot of those, when it comes like the outdoors and things, okay, making fire from scratch. Great skill set, but how often is it actually needed in day-to-day life? It's really not. And so while it's something that I think is important, it got me thinking, okay, what actual information or values do I want to leave with them? And so I'm still pondering all of this, but it— for now anyway, it's 4 things: be kind, be curious, have fun, don't waste. And so, those are kind of the 4 things that I'm personally really digging into within myself, within my companies, and everything that we do because I feel like it kind of covers most of life. Be kind to everyone, to everything that you meet. Be curious. Quit prejudging and just trying to control things and just be curious about what might— what could be, what might happen. Have fun. Everything you do, if it's not fun, why the hell are you doing it? Then don't waste, whether that's time, resources, money, whatever, because, you know, we do have so much waste throughout life. And so how can we be more conservative in that? How can we be more sustainable?

Those are good. I think, yeah, I think it kind of covers everything. What's interesting is my sister, she has a 2-year-old, Beckham. He's my nephew. And she said, out of everything in this life, if I can teach Beckham one thing and one thing only, I just want him to be kind. She's like, even if he's nothing, even if everything fails, she's like, being kind gets you so far in life. I'm like, that is very true. And she's literally one of the kindest people in the world. So he has the perfect, you know, role model for being kind. But yeah, that's a big one. And then being curious. I almost think being curious is just having this like in-pursuit growth mindset, right? Like, how can you be— how can you be curious and not learn? You're going to learn, you're going to grow, right? Just being curious. And then, um, what was your third one?

Have fun.

Have fun, of course. Yeah. My favorite quote, one of my favorite quotes is, where there's interest, there's education.

Yes.

And by Socrates. And I almost think that that's like, if you're interested in something, then you're going to have fun, right? And having fun, you're going to learn something. So that kind of reminds me of that. And then don't waste. Don't waste is huge. America is so wasteful. You know, I love America. I love it. I'm a veteran. I am patriotic to the core. I'm as patriotic as can be. But I do have problems with our consumerism in America. And we are so wasteful. But yeah, those are good values.

Yeah. I recently read the book It's by Dan Flores. Oh, the name is escaping me now. It's a history of North America and about how many species we've lost throughout the history of North America. And it's based on consumerism and greed and hubris and just the flora and fauna and everything. And really, it goes back to that mass consumerism and just wanting to use species for our own usage and not just for food. but for goods and just treating them as a commodity that can just be just used and abused and wasted. And so I've never finished a book and just felt physically ill like I did after that just because of what we've done to our planet and just to our country, to our continent so much. And so that's a really fascinating study of just the Just the history of it. Dan Flores. Yeah, the name. Then I did the audiobook version, and I have found that whenever I do like an ebook or an audiobook, I'm not seeing it. And so it's, um, so I always forget it. Wild New World, that's the name of it.

Wild?

Wild New World.

Wild New World. Yeah. Do you know what I think should be necessary in school for these kids. Um, a field trip to our landfills. Did you ever go to a landfill when you were in school? I never went to a landfill. In fact, I never saw a landfill till I was in my 30s.

Mm-hmm.

And I was disgusted. Um, By what I saw. And I think if kids went to landfills on field trips, then maybe not only can they be changed, but they can go home and share what they learned with their parents. Yeah. And maybe instill some better home practices because it's— those landfills are ginormous.

Yeah.

And just burying, burying, burying. It's crazy.

Yeah. Basically building on a mountain of trash.

Yeah, really.

Yeah. Yeah.

And in some places, that's getting dumped into the ocean. So, we know the consequences of that. So, yeah, not a pretty sight. Megan, what is the biggest life lesson that nature and the outdoors has taught you?

The biggest life lesson that Nature has taught me. I think that, as cliché as it's going to sound, I think that nature has taught me that it is home, that it is our happy place, and, um, As much as the world is— humans are comfort creatures, or, you know, we strive for comfort. We like the shelter, we like the 70 degrees in the house, we like, oh, just, you know, being indoors. But when we are in nature, surrounded by nature, we are happier and we do heal. And we do become a little bit more stress-free, and our burdens are lifted, and, and we are our true selves. And it's just this sacred, safe space, and that's healing and restoring. And so I think nature has taught me that happiness lies in nature. Happiness lies in the great outdoors. And spending time out there, adequate time out there. And that my awe-inspiring aha moments comes from when I'm in the great outdoors. And I only have like 2 tattoos, and one of them's like the hiker man, and the other one's my trail name, Belay. And I got them specifically because if I'm ever feeling overwhelmed or depressed or anything, to remember my identities. And to go hike and to go into nature. So I think nature has taught me that it is the best place we can be anytime. And so I— and it has so many lessons in and of itself, but I do think we are all better human beings when we spend time in nature. And I think it's just really important that we spend time in nature so we can learn to preserve our nature. If you don't care about something, you're not going to preserve it. So I think that not only does it make us happier and healthier and our truest selves, hopefully it can inspire people to Preserve it.

And what would you say to the person who has no desire to spend any time in nature? You know, they're glued to their social media or to their phone or computer, um, to their video games, to, to technology and modern conveniences. What would you say to that person that they think that it's just an inconvenience and have no desire to spend any time, uh, in what's I think to the person who has a bad taste in their mouth about nature, I think I would need to ask them their experience in nature.

Something caused that. Something caused them to not want to play outdoors. And There's this, uh, field called ecopsychology, and it's the psych— psychology behind how people view nature. And for example, do you view it as a commodity? Do you view it as a friend? Do you view it as sacred? Do you view it as an enemy? Do you view it as a test to the self? And how you view it is going to determine how you use it and your interaction with it. So for example, people who view it as an enemy, you have to figure out why they're viewing it as an enemy. And this is going to get a little maybe political, and I don't want it to seem political at all because I I don't want to get— I don't— I try to like walk a fine line with that. But let's talk about slavery in America, where our— where African Americans and Black people were forced to work outside in horrible conditions. And, um, were subjected to hanging by rope in the trees. Horrible. Would you want to take a group of African Americans to a ropes course for their very first outdoor experience?

No.

I don't know if that would go over so well. Or maybe African Americans don't want to go do anything outside because something deep within them has this negative association in history with the outdoors. Or maybe like internment camps or something where they were forced to live outdoors. Maybe they don't want to be outdoors. Maybe, you know, there's, there's something deeply embedded in some people that have— that see— that see nature as an enemy. And that's not everybody. But I think someone just on a lighter level, someone who sees nature as an enemy, I'd want to know what happened in their life to make them view it like that. Because, you know, it— and then I would want to figure out their ideal outdoor experience, like dream up the best outdoor experience for them. And let's go do that. You know, someone who sees it as a test of the self might just, uh, go climb mountains and run up mountains or go run a long trail as fast as possible, right? And then if their kid had to do that with them and their kid didn't enjoy that, and now their kid associates the outdoors with suffering of the physical self, they might not want to go outside anymore. So I think If someone hates the great outdoors, I think I'd want to know what happened and why they think that. And then I'd want to know what their dream outdoor experience is and then go do that.

You know what really stands out to me here? Basically, you're talking about epigenetics, like something that has gotten passed down and is imprinted within their psyche from previous generations and has gotten passed down so that They no longer associate with nature, with the outdoors as being a supportive place. It's seen as the enemy. I never thought about that before, but that is fascinating.

I think I don't like to talk much about privilege. I think privilege exists for everything. I don't like to talk too much about privilege, but I just happen to have always experience nature in the best of ways. I love it. So to me, it's my happy place. But if someone didn't experience it in the best of ways, then, you know, there's a lot more to that.

Yeah, that is interesting. And especially, you know, I have, I have friends who don't love camping. To me, it's my happy place. I like sleeping in a tent. I like being on the ground. I like being in the elements and experiencing all of it. And to them, it's just uncomfortable. They'd rather be in their nice soft bed and be warm all the time and, you know, have perfectly air-conditioned regulated house. But to me, it's— I appreciate those things so much more when I don't have them for a short period of time.

Yes. And I think I think, you know, long-distance adventures teaches you to appreciate amenities substantially more, um, than if you didn't do long-distance adventures. But for the people who don't like camping, I know them as well. Um, for the people who don't like camping because it's uncomfortable or they want to sleep in their bed, that's why I go through such great lengths to get the best gear on the market, because I think a Tent time at nighttime can make or break your experience. So we have the best sleeping pads, we have the best sleeping pads, we are bags, we have such a good sleep system that it is so cozy and comfortable. And I do think, I think you can have a life-changing experience with any gear, right? Like the Appalachian Trail, life-changing experience for me. I just brought what I had at home. Okay. But I do think gear can make— can help make an experience, make it better. And so like, I try so hard to have my clients have the best gear possible because I want their camping experience to be positive. Additionally to those people, there is this phenomenon, phenomena called the 3-day effect. And what it is, is that You need 3 full days in nature to become comfortable. You need 3 full days in nature to stop expecting things from Mother Nature, stop expecting things from yourself, and to start accepting what just happens. So for example, on the mountains, I see it all the time. People expected them to be more physically fit. They didn't think they would struggle like they do. People expected the sun to be out more. People expected better temperatures. People expected warmer nights. They expected lighter packs. They expected less insects. Right? So there's this— it takes 3 days for you to lose your expectations of yourself and of the environment and to just accept what's going on, to just be. And so I think for people who maybe hate camping, I would encourage them more time than less. And of course, they're going to say absolutely not, right? I hate that.

Yeah.

But there is actual research that suggests that the more time you spend in nature, the more you'll enjoy it, the more you'll learn to kind of enjoy it because your expectations will disappear. Or they'll lessen. Yeah. So good gear and adequate time in nature, which is why like Belay Expeditions typically doesn't offer anything less than 3 days because 2 days just isn't going to cut it for them. They need 3 days, ideally 7. And of course I'll advocate an eternity time in nature.

But yeah. I love that.

Belay, what, what is the crazy experience that you've had that you would not actually want to repeat in the great outdoors?

That I wouldn't want to repeat?

And your most fun. Let's do both of those. Your most memorable fun experience in nature and then one that got so crazy or dangerous or whatever that you would not actually want to repeat that, no matter how good the life lessons were there.

There's one that I would change the outcome.

Okay.

So, this is the only one that I think that I would change the outcome. I was in Alaska for Alaska Mountain Guides, and in order to be one of their guides, you have to go through a student course to learn leadership skills. And the course— you could do a rock climbing course, you could do a mountaineering course, you could do an ice climbing course, you could do a rafting course. You chose your area of emphasis, but the leadership skills were going to be the same, the character development skills were going to be the same. So they just wanted to make sure all their guides kind of had the same skill level. So anyways, I did the mountaineering course in Alaska, and we went and lived 3 weeks on a glacier, and, um, it was awesome.

Wow.

But I remember one specific day That it was around 1 PM, and avalanches tend to occur in the afternoon because the snow gets soft. Um, it's very susceptible to avalanche being triggered— avalanches being triggered in the afternoon. And it was around 1 PM, and we were going down this really snowy slope. It was pretty steep for me at the time, and the exposure was serious. The exposure was like thousands of feet on both sides. There was no room for error. So like, if you slipped, you were falling thousands of feet, like to your death. It was a fatal death. It was a fatal exposure limit. And it was slippery. And it was beyond my comfort. It was beyond my comfort zone at that point in time. And I looked to my instructors, and I've never said this before to any instructor. So I was serious when I said it. I looked to my instructors and I said, I'm not going down that slope without a rope. They had rope. They had it available. I said, I'm not going down that slope without a rope. And they said to me, well, you're not getting a rope, so you're going down it as is.

Mm-hmm.

And I sat there and I froze. I became paralyzed. And it was for the first time in my life that I actually started shaking in my boots, like physically shaking in my boots, tears in my eyes, paralyzed. And it took the other teammates coming over to me and being like, hey, we are all scared too. We'll do this together. We're just going to follow each other's footsteps. But we got this, right? It took the other teammates coming over. And helping me down this slope. Anyways, it was all fine and gravy. We got down safe and sound. I think the instructors felt bad because they made us cheesecake that night. But this is why I would change it. To this day, if I am put on a mountain with similar exposure, similar terrain, and similar snow conditions I will freeze, paralyzed. It's almost like PTSD. I don't have PTSD, right? But it's almost like I have this small case of PTSD where I'm overcome with the exact same feelings that I felt that day in Alaska, and I just freeze on the mountain.

Wow.

And I have to like work myself through it and breathe and just take, you know, just take a moment. Um, but it's serious. And I think this is why I would have changed that day in Alaska if the instructors could have handled it differently, right? Like, if they could have sat with me and said, why does this scare you? How can we help you? We, we can't give rope. We don't have that kind of time to set up rope. It's 1 PM. What can we do to help you? Right, like, what technique are you do you need to learn more about? Like, if, if they could have handled it differently, I think maybe I wouldn't have become paralyzed with fear and sh— shookin' in my boots, right? And I think today, um, 10 years later, maybe I wouldn't have the same little PTSD episodes that I do have.

Yeah.

And it's all about the instructors. So I think All of my great outdoors experiences have been amazing, awesome, life-changing. But that is the one situation that I do believe that if the instructors could have handled it differently, my outcome to this day could be different.

Maybe I wouldn't come with—

overcome with fear when I hit similar conditions with similar exposure on similar terrain. So that's the— I think that's the one experience that I don't want to say I wouldn't want to relive because you learn something from everything. Like, I learned what not to say to people, right? If my clients ever become similar, I know what not to do, you know?

Yeah.

So I think that's the one The one thing I might change.

Got it. And is there an experience that you've had that you just look back on just with the fondest memories where it was the most fun or the most exciting or just your very favorite?

I want to say any time on any long-distance trail. So the Appalachian Trail or the Pacific Crest Trail, um, those trails are so much fun. And I think, you know, you're just living your best life out there. Ask any thru-hiker. They're living their best life when they're on those trails. And to me, as much as I love mountain climbing, it was my first love. I love long-distance expeditions. That is when I'm at my happiest, my happiest self, in my happiest place. So I would encourage anybody to go If they have the time to go do a long-distance trail. And you don't have to do it all at once. You know, there's this like thought that to be a thru-hiker, you have to do the whole 2,000 miles at once or to be the whole 3,000 miles at once. But not everybody has 6 months of their life to do that. You can do an entire state one summer, you can do a next state, the next state the next summer. You know, and you can piece together trails by states. You can piece together trails by 500 miles at a time, you know. And ultimately, a thru-hike is like hiking a trail in its completion from start to finish, right? So just piece together the sections. Like, it's just so much fun. But I do think with thru-hikes, you need at least 30 days. Like, you need 30 days out there to experience the real True awesomeness that those trails provide. 30 days.

Got it. Normally, I ask guests what equipment they consider essential for any outdoor adventure. And so, I want to put a little spin on this for you because you mentioned earlier that there are 20 things that you have all of everyone that's going on a trip with you that they have in their backpack. So, would you like to kind of go over what those items are?

Yeah, um, I wish I had a printed gear list in front of me and I could read them.

Just from memory.

Just from memory. Sure.

Yeah, backpack.

Um, on a thru-hike, I think you can get away with a 45-liter backpack. Um, as a guide myself, I have to carry bigger than that Because guides just have more stuff to carry. But I would say a backpack, um, at least 45-liter, um, sleeping pad, inflatable, um, not closed cell. So inflatable sleeping pad, sleeping bag, a liner, especially if you're gonna go in the high mountains or you're gonna dip into the shoulder seasons. Um, this is a luxury item. It's not necessary, but it made a big difference for me. Um, an inflatable pillow from Sea to Summit. I know people just stuff their stuff sacks full of their extra clothes, but an inflatable pillow takes up like no space whatsoever, and it's a game changer. So I do a Sea to Summit inflatable pillow. Um, I would say My Jetboil and my spork and the French press attachment that comes with it. That's also a luxury item. French press isn't necessary, but it takes nothing to pack inside your Jetboil at all. Um, and then headlamp and trekking poles. That's my That's my gear. That's all the gear I have.

Okay, so what gear brands do you love that either based on the quality of the products or what the brands are doing, the stance that they take on conservation or environmentalism or just the outdoors in general?

So I have a few brands that I am very loyal to. My loyalty runs deep, and one brand is Big Agnes. I think that they're based out of Colorado. I think that they do excellent tents. My favorite tent is the Copper Spur. Um, it's pretty pricey, but I think it's worth the money. Um, so Big Agnes, they also do excellent sleeping bags. I'm a huge Huge fan of, um, you know, I have -20-degree sleeping bags for the Seven Summits, and then I have like regular 15-degree sleeping bags for like the Colorado mountains. And everything they do is just such high quality. So I'm a huge fan of Big Agnes. I'm a huge fan of Sea to Summit. Um, specifically, there's sleeping system. They do excellent sleeping pads, sleeping bag liners, uh, pillows if you want a luxury item. Um, they have a great sleep system. I'm very loyal to Jetboil even though I know MSR puts out equally as great stoves. I've just never used an MSR stove, so I can't speak to MSR, but I've heard great things. Um, but I love Jeff Oil. And then, and those are brands that I like for their quality, durability, practicality. Um, Oboz is my favorite hiking shoe. My hiking boot is Oboz. They last a solid year and are incredibly comfortable and almost come broken in. So I'm a big fan of Oboz boots. Um, but in terms of a brand that I really like their philosophy and their values, uh, is Patagonia. And it's because I'm a huge fan of Yvon Chouinard. I read his book, um, because of a recommendation. It came recommended to me, um, Let My People Go Surfing.

And I—

Great book.

Love that book. I love that book as an outdoors person. I love that book as an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur, and I love that book as someone who really ascribes to values and having a value system. And Yvon just like hits it out of the park on all of those aspects. So what's interesting about that book is that he initially wrote it as an employee manual, but it was so well received that it became a textbook in universities For business degrees. And then that became so well received that it's now just put out for the mass public to read. So I don't personally own anything Patagonia. I've never been inspired or led to buy a piece of their equipment or clothing yet, but that doesn't take away the fact That I think Yvon Chouinard built something phenomenal. And with the environment in mind, and I can get behind everything he stands for. And I look to him as almost a role model that I've never met. I love that book. So I would say Patagonia, even though I don't have anything of theirs. I like the owner. I'm a fan of the owner, so I can get behind their products.

Yeah, I think that kind of gets into building a personal brand or being what you stand for and everything and how that shines through in your company. And so I think you're doing a really good job with, uh, with what you're doing with Ballet Expeditions.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

You're welcome.

I actually reached out to Yvonne to do a retreat. Oh, because you know how I do those. retreats with Be Outside, Be Simple, and Be in Pursuit. And I was like, I want Yvon to host a retreat. And I reached out to him and I've never heard back, which is totally fine. I know he's like in his 80s and 90s now and like retiring. But I mean, what a cool guy.

Yeah, for sure. You know, that kind of is a good segue into What book or books have had the biggest influence on your life?

Easily. Well, I have a few books that have had big influences on my life. However, the one book that has had the most influence on my life is The Man Who Quit Money. And it is a book written by Mark Sundin, an incredibly well-known author. He teaches at Missoula. Um, written many books, but Mark Sundeen does an incredible job writing about the life of Daniel Suelo. And Daniel Suelo is now in his mid-60s, living in Oregon now, taking care of his mother who's almost 100. But the book talks about his life and journey towards moneyless living. So, you know, I might talk about, you know, anti-consumerism and anti-materialism. I might be a minimalist, but this guy is so much of a minimalist that he doesn't even use money. In 2000, in the year 2000, he put his last $30 in a phone booth in Boston and walked away from it. And he never spent Or earned a money cent, or earned a penny since. And, um, the book kind of gets into like what led him to do that. And what ultimately led him to do that is Daniel suffers from depression, but he kind of attributed this depression to a money society, a money-driven society, and, uh, kind of thinks that money might be the root of all evil. He's not religious. Daniel's not religious. I would say he's spiritual, but he's not religious. But he kind of attributes the negative things in society to being tied to money. And so he wanted to do a moneyless life. So he walked away from money in the year 2000. He lived in a cave in Moab, and the whole book is about his day-to-day life with no money, um, his philosophies behind it, his spiritual and religious beliefs behind it. And it's totally fascinating. And I would say eye-opening. You know, when you think about it, money drives a lot of what we do day to day. For many people, it's what drives them for most of their day. And when you're not tied to money, you are free to do anything you want. In terms of time. And time's our most precious quantity, right? Like, we all want more time. It's the one thing that we don't get more of. And so when you— Mark Sundeen talked about— what he did so well was talk about Daniel's day-to-day life and how he's just free to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, because he has no obligations to anyone. To anything, to make any money, to pay anybody.

He's just free.

And so I think, you know, if someone is seeking a simpler life, if someone is seeking to declutter their life, whether they're decluttering possessions, whether they're decluttering habits or finances or whatever, I think it's a good book to read because it Does an excellent job of teaching what you can actually live without and live without really happily and the benefits of it. So I would say the biggest book, the book that's had the biggest influence is The Man Who Quit Money. And I actually read it in my first couple of years of my PhD program. And I do credit that book to pushing me into the direction Of living a very nomadic life, which I did for 7 years after that. A very nomadic life and even developing Vee. So, that book was like pretty life-changing for me.

Yeah, great. We'll definitely add that into the show notes. And I always ask people where our audience can find them on social media and others, but I know you just recently got rid of all of your social media, Megan. Do you care to talk a little bit about that and where people can actually learn more about you?

Yes. So if people just visit the Ballet Expeditions website, they will learn the whereabouts of me and ballet. I have a little blog section that I occasionally post a blog on. I have the tips and techniques subscription. So if people are looking for like more professional knowledge or more professionally written stories, they can sign up for the Tips and Techniques for $3.99 a month. And they can sign up for my email subscriptions. I do a weekly newsletter on Sundays that kind of talks about what's going on with me and what's going on with Belé.

Because people who are—

Yeah, some people like the company and some people just like me. You know, you know, so the newsletter highlights what belay's up to, and the newsletter highlights what belay expeditions is up to. Um, so the, the website's kind of a one-stop shop for keeping up with B and belay. But social media, um, yeah, I mean, it's kind of a big deal to walk away from social media. I see That for me, it's always been like a love-hate relationship. I've always enjoyed my time on social media. I love posting quotes. I love posting about my journeys. I love keeping up with people. I love meeting new people. I love my time on social media. But at the end of the day, it didn't make me a better person. It didn't make me a happier person. I actually think that it kept me inside more than outside. I actually think it kept me busier than simpler. I actually think it kept me pretty content and reliant on a free advertising platform versus thinking strategically and creatively and reaching out to, you know, face-to-face people like you and I met, not through social media, you know? So I think like social media can almost keep you, uh, maybe not thinking as creatively as you could in the marketing world and meeting those person-to-person connections.

So for me, social media was almost anti-value.

And it almost, I mean, it just kept me from being better. Like if you think about the Belay Expositions model of be you better, I don't think it made me a better person. So I stepped away from social media a couple years ago, or maybe a year ago now, and it's been great. It's, it's, it's forced me to do some big things. It's forced me to do some different things, and I really have appreciated my time. And I think the biggest thing that I'm proving to myself, uh, then maybe to others, but more so me, I think the biggest thing that that I'm weary about with social media is that it has done a phenomenal job at making someone feel that they are only seen if they post. And it's made— it's done a phenomenal job of making a business feel that it can only succeed if they have it. And I'm not falling for it. I believe that businesses have been successful long before social media ever came about, and that they will be successful without it. So I am stepping away from the digital social media, slightly superficial world, to just have more like meaningful, direct, um, relationships and proving to myself that I can be successful and seen without multiple platforms.

So yeah, social media is great.

But it is not for me. And I will say that the decision didn't come hastily. It came when I felt that Ballet Expeditions could stand on its own. Because I know, like, as a new business, that it helps greatly to get, get the name out. But when I felt like we could stand on its own, I walked away. So yes, now you can find everything ballet and everything Ballet Expeditions on the website itself.

Got it. And so just kind of as a caveat to that, what has been your primary marketing channel without— outside of social media? Because most social is kind of like an outpost where you're putting content out and that's where people discover it. It's like a discovery engine in a lot of ways, depending on what channel you're using, that's bringing them back into your hub, your— into your website, your home.

I think my biggest—

social media was huge for me.

I walked away from something that was like, actually pretty successful for Ballet Expeditions.

I'm not going to deny that. It worked well for me. I got this— Ballet Expeditions was discovered by a lot of people whom I've never met before via social media. But the number one thing for Ballet Expeditions has always been referrals and word of mouth. And it continues to be that for, I think, all the industries. I think that's the number one advertising and marketing strategy is word of mouth and referral. So that continues to be my first thing. And now with, in kind of in lieu of social media, I've done my email campaigns, which I really enjoy my Sunday newsletters, like I have a great time making my Sunday newsletters. So that's kind of been in lieu of social media.

I've also, you know, with social media, people love to write.

They love to write inspirational stories and I'm no different. But from a business perspective, that's, you're not, you're not necessarily making money off of that. Right. So like I started the Tips and Techniques subscription where it's kind of like inspirational stories and knowledge on steroids because you have to up it if you're gonna ask people to pay $3 a month for it. You still have to up the professionalism because someone's paying for that. And so people can still get my stories, people can still get my knowledge, people can still get my gear recommendations and whatnot through the Tips and Techniques subscription. So it's not like I'm not writing anymore. It's not like I've stepped away from communicating with people anymore. I still do. It's just all through the website.

And all the other things that I really enjoy doing is partnerships.

I do retreats once a month in the on-season, and I do retreats with big names. So like for Be Outside next year, I'm bringing in Conrad Anker, who's like a legendary, like a legendary mountaineer and rock climber. He's coming in to talk about how being outside has made him better in a Colorado retreat. For Be Simple, I'm bringing in Joshua Becker. I'm bringing in Leo Babauta, Colin Rudd.

Yeah, I know.

Yes, I was gonna ask about your skiing thing with him. Did you go skiing?

Yeah, not yet. We're trying to get the dates out. We usually do that I think we're doing that in March this year.

Ah, I'm so excited for you. So, you know, I have those 3 big-time minimalists coming out to teach on a journey and then be in pursuit. I have life coaches coming out. I have a USA team gymnast coming out to teach about goal setting and being in pursuit. So, you know, I get to work with these awesome individuals who have ginormous followings of their own, and I kind of get to be on their stage for a moment, right? Be included with their following for a moment. So just because, like, I walked away from social media myself and maybe said goodbye to my following on social media doesn't mean I'm like totally removed from the social media world. So yeah, I've just had to find different ways to just get out there. And partnerships has been a huge one. So yeah, I'm grateful for my partnerships big time. I'm grateful for the podcast. I'm grateful to be here.

So, super. Well, Megan, what is one piece of closing advice that you'd like to leave with our audience today?

This is always a hard question for me, but I think that whenever— when it all comes down to everything and the dust settles, I think answers are found in nature. So I think if someone's listening and they're maybe depressed like I was, or if someone's listening and they're feeling anxious, And overwhelmed, or if someone's searching for something better in life because they're feeling unfulfilled like I was. I think nature has the answers if you just give it the time. So my biggest piece of advice for anybody, even if you're happy and healthy and have nothing to change in life, my biggest thing is to just get out in nature and for substantial time. And to just listen to it. One of the things that I love doing, and it never fails, is that whenever I have a huge question in my life, a big question, I go to the river, and I sit at the river, and I don't leave the river until I have the answer. And I don't force it. I just sit there and let it, and let it come. And I think that nature just has the answers for us. I mean, really, it's just you listening to yourself, but nature gives you the space and quietness to process all of your feelings and emotions and thoughts. So I think my biggest piece of advice is no matter what you're feeling out there, just go into nature and give it an hour or 3 days, like the 3-a-day effect, or 30 days on a long-distance journey. And I think the answers will come. I think nature is, is our happy place and our healing space. And, um, yeah, just go into nature, be outside.

Love it. Megan, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

And until next time, for all of you listening, stay wild.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.