Ep 19: Patrick Rollins on Knives, Bushcraft, & Survival Training

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild.

Welcome to the Adventure Made Podcast.

Brought to you by Rewild Gear. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Patrick Rollins. Patrick is the lead instructor for Randall's Adventure and Training, as well as part of the team at ESEE Knives, one of my personal favorite knife companies. He developed his enthusiasm for the outdoors from an early age, growing up camping, hunting, fishing, and a member of the Boy Scouts, before spending 19 years as a sheriff's deputy in Whitfield County, Georgia. Since then, he has taught numerous classes in the US and in the Amazon jungles of Peru. And we're going to dig into a whole lot of that. This in a few minutes here. Randall's Adventure and Training teaches survival, bushcraft, land navigation, basic human tracking, single rope techniques, rope rescue, K-rescue, wilderness first responder, and search and rescue classes. Patrick is certified as a first responder, firearms instructor, Glock armorer, rope rescue technician, swift water rescue technician, and wilderness first responder. He has many hours of training in various skill sets including woodland operations, wilderness survival training, land navigation, and tracking. He's been a law enforcement instructor since 2001 and served on the Whitfield County Sheriff's Office Special Response Team, entry and sniper from 2001 to 2004. Patrick, welcome to the show.

Glad to be here, Seth.

Yeah, super. This is going to be fun. You know, I've been a fan of ESEE Knives and Randall's Adventure and Training for a long time. And so super excited to have you on the show and to kind of dig into your experience and background and some of the adventures that you've had and been a part of over the years, and maybe get into some of the technical things when it comes to knives and equipment and stuff like that too.

Okay, sounds good.

Yeah, super. Okay, Patrick, just to start, give, give us a little bit of your background story. How did you get to where you are?

Um, like you said in the, um, the intro, you know, just grew up loving the outdoors, camping, you know, getting outside every chance I could. Um, growing up a child, you know, of the '80s, all the, all the movies like, uh, Red Dawn, First Blood, Predator, you know, and all those were real big. And so we'd get outside and play and try to recreate some of the stuff you saw, and it just went from there. Um, You know, it grew and grew and just, you know, love getting out, trying to figure out ways to start fire, building shelters and, and stuff like that. And then I'm just fortunate enough to be able to do it for a living now.

That's fantastic. And so as part of that, I know you're big into bushcrafting and some of the survival courses and, and all that fun stuff. Would you consider yourself a survivalist or a bushcrafter or an instructor? What How would you define yourself in that?

I would say like a jack of all trades. You know, I love the survival aspect and, you know, that's where my love, you know, initially grew from. And then when you get into bushcraft, you get into more primitive skills and primitive living techniques that a lot of indigenous people are still using today. And just all of it, you know, as a whole, just enjoy it all. And it's fun and teaching people stuff they're not familiar with and just, you know, seeing the excitement on the, you know, on their face, you know, when they're learning new skills and watch them grow from Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Um, and obviously bushcrafting has developed a huge following in recent years. Um, and I'm not sure totally the reason for it. I just kind of this renewed sense of reconnecting with nature and getting in touch with some of those skills that we've lost touch with. But how would you personally define bushcraft for someone that is not familiar with that term or what that is?

Um, you know, survival is, is more about just continuing to live, you know, in its most basic form, doing what you have to as far as getting fire, getting shelter, signaling, you know, those type skills. Bushcraft is more about, um, I don't want to say, you know, becoming one with nature, but it's being able to get by with less. Um, you know, you may have heard the more you know, the less you'll carry, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

So the more skills you pick up, the less stuff you have to carry with you to be comfortable, you know, when you're out camping or doing whatever.

Yeah, totally. That makes a lot of sense. So as far as if someone is new to bushcrafting and they're like, oh, that sounds interesting, I want to carve a spoon or learn to start a fire with a bow drill or something like that, where do you recommend people start?

If there's not a school close by for you to attend a class, man, there's tons of info on YouTube. There's a lot of good channels on there, people doing all kinds of bushcraft skills and teaching and instructing and doing a lot of stuff on their own. Even if they don't have a school, there's a lot of good channels showing these skills. And, you know, some of the stuff that I teach now, I may have seen in a video several years ago. And me and the other instructors that assist, we're always big on giving credit where credit's due. You know, if we see something on a YouTube channel, if we go to try to, you know, teach it or whatever, we tell the people where we saw it. You know, there's a lot of information out there.

Yeah, so much information and both good and bad info. And I think when someone is really starting to dig into, you know, the outdoor space and getting into primitive skills sets and survivalism and all of that. How do you decipher between what information is good, credible, and actually works versus someone that doesn't know what they're talking about and they're just making it up as they go? Because, you know, we've all seen that on YouTube and everything else where people are giving advice, but they don't have any real-world practical experience with it.

The biggest thing for me, if you see something in a video and you, you want to try to learn it or try to do it, go outside and try to recreate it. You know, see if it's going to work. You know, if you see a video where a guy, you know, holds a bottle of water And focuses sunlight to start a fire. Like, you know, you might see that on TV or something like that. Go out and try it. It does work. It requires a long amount of time and a lot of patience. So just get out and try it. You know, see if you're able to make fire doing— or make a shelter. And if you build a shelter a certain way, spend a couple of nights in it. Not necessarily when it's, you know, good weather, but do it when it's bad weather and see if it's going to shed water like it's supposed to, or whatever it is you're trying to learn.

No, that's great advice. Tell me a little bit about Randall's Adventure and Training, how that got started, how you came to get involved with that, and some of the courses and training that you guys offer.

Okay, back in the late '90s, my bosses Jeff Randall and Mike Perrin— that's the co-owners of ESEE Knives and Randall's Adventure and Training— they went on a trip to the Amazon jungle through a mutual friend. And that person was taking clients from the United— from the States down there and putting them in touch with the Peruvian Air Force survival instructors who had put them through about a 6-7 day class, you know, through their jungle class that they were teaching to the military. And so Jeff and Mike kind of took that over and started bringing students down there to go through that class. And the more they did that, the more they saw that the knives and gear that they were taking down there, they weren't happy with it, didn't perform like it it was supposed to, or, or, you know, that sort of thing. So they started coming up with their own designs, their own knife designs, and getting different custom makers to make them on a small scale. And then that grew to where Ontario Knife Works was making, making the knives for a while. And now we're with Rowan Manufacturing out of Idaho Falls. And that's just grown and grown and grown. And so we were a training company first, you know, the Randall's Adventuring Training came about first before, you know, it progressed into the knife knife side of the deal. How I came in contact with them, I was working night shift at the sheriff's office. And there was a brigade quartermaster catalog, you know, you may remember that catalog floating around in the squadron. And so I was flipping through it, looking at knives, you know, you know, all guys seem to like knives. And came across the RAT 3, the RAT 5, and the RTAC 2. And, and saw that these guys had written a book, you know, Adventure Travel in the Third World, you know, by Jeff Randall and Mike Perrin. And, and the more I read about it, the more interested I got. So I, you know, Googled them, tried to find out what I could. They had an old forum, the old Jungle Training forum, and it had pictures from classes, a few classes they had done. And I saw where they had a class coming up in Fort Payne, Alabama. That was a 5-day woodland operations class, and that sounded enough like a law enforcement class that I was able to talk to the sheriff's office and allow me to have the time off, you know, to go attend. And it covered basic survival, basic human tracking, A little bit of land nav, a little bit of ropes, but it was just an absolute blast. I had the time of my life and was surprised to see that there's actually places that you can take classes like that. You know, all this fun stuff that I love doing, and, you know, here it is, and it's only 2 hours away. I was able to, you know, take a class there. Um, took the class, you know, loved it, uh, became good friends with, um, one of the guys helping Jeff, uh, Jimmy Dunn. He taught the tracking portion and some of the survival. Started doing a few camping backpacking trips with him, and within a year got asked to start coming back and helping out with the classes in Fort Payne. And so I would take time off from the sheriff's office to go, you know, help teach, you know, the woodland operations class. Did that a couple of times and then got asked to start coming and helping down in the Amazon, you know, down in Peru on the jungle survival class. Started doing that. In maybe the fall of 2012, I was at Jeff's house picking up the GPS and the satellite phone. You know, I was going to be taking my first class down to the Amazon without either one of them. It was kind of like graduation, you know, um, you know, you'll now be the one teaching down there. And, uh, and Jeff asked me, um, Jeff asked me what I make, um, what I make a year, you know, for the sheriff's office. And I told him, and, uh, he said, if we were to pay you that year-round to teach classes, schedule classes, go to the trade shows, you know, SHOT Show and Blade Show and, and, you know, and all that. Would you be interested? And I said, man, I'd jerk your arm off. So came on full time in January of 2013. And, you know, it's, it's kind of cliché, but you hear, you know, if you find work doing what you love, you know, find a job doing what you love, you'll never have to work a day in your life. And that's basically what it seemed like ever since, you know, even on the hard hardest, longest, you know, most difficult class or whatever we're doing, it's never seemed like work. So I feel very, very fortunate to be a part of it.

Yeah, that's fantastic. I totally agree with that. Yeah, if you, if you find something that you love and just do it all the time, I mean, that can be a lot of fun. Although you got to be careful so it doesn't turn into a job and then you end up hating the thing that you're passionate about too. So trying to find that balance there can be tough. I've experienced that a little bit over the years, so I know how that is. Which side of the company do you enjoy more? Do you enjoy the training side and the courses and the classes that you lead, or kind of like the knife and the production and, um, you know, the creativity of design? Because I know you've designed a few knives yourself.

Um, I love them both. You know, it's kind of a, a good blend. Um, you know, the, the training takes up the majority of my time, you know, doing the teaching in classes and being a part of different classes and stuff. Um, I don't have a whole lot to do with the product side other than testing and evaluation. you know, stuff like that. And the trade shows like SHOT Show, Blade Show, you know, any, anything like that, you know, of course, a part of. So that's like a, you know, a good, a good break from the training to be able to meet with our fans and meet with the, you know, the people that use our products, and just talk to them and what they like, and, you know, what they like about the different knives and what they don't like. And, and they're always hitting us up for, you know, have you ever thought about doing this? You know, what do you think if you know about this? And so it's just great, you know, communicating with You know, with our customers.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you really have a built-in mechanism to test the gear and the equipment and see what works and what doesn't and really put it through its paces with all the training.

That's one of the big differences between us and a lot of the knife companies out there is, you know, we're out there constantly, you know, using our stuff in real-world, you know, environment. And instead of just, you know, coming up with designs in the drawing room and just putting it out there without it ever being tested or tried out.

Yeah, definitely. And so part of that, because I know you guys have been really big on 1095 steel and focusing on that because how hard and tough it is and everything. But you've recently started making some knives with some different steels like S35VN, I think maybe another one as well. Can you talk about that a little bit as far as, you know, your, your reasons for preferring 1095? Or has that changed and what that process is like?

Sure. Yeah, we did. We had a couple of models out in 440C. You know, people were asking for that, that live in coastal environments. And they were, you know, wanting the anti-corrosion properties of stainless steel. And so, you know, we had the Izula in 440C and the ESEE 4 in 440C. And then people started asking for, you know, other steels. You know, there's a lot of knife fanatics out there, and they know what they like. And they would just, you know— I'm one of them. You know, S35VN. They kept asking for S35VN. Me personally, I didn't know You know, I just mainly use 1095. That's, you know, once I started with the company, I just, you know, fell in love with 1095. You know, it does what I want it to. It's very durable. It's easy to touch up in the field. And on some of these classes where we might be out for 5, 6 days, that's great, you know, not having to have specialized, you know, equipment just to bring the edge back. And so when we came out with the, the S35VN SE3, I wanted to bring one home and just really, you know, just put it through its paces just because I wasn't familiar with the steel. The edge retention is way better than 1095.

Yeah.

You know, I'll say that right off the bat. I did all sorts of stuff that I've done with our regular ESEE 3s, you know, the— I was making fuzz sticks, a tri-stick, cutting rope, batoning, and that just kept on and on and on, and the edge just— it never Got any duller. It just never felt any duller. And then I, you know, just continued with the batoning almost. You know, I would almost consider it abuse. You know, just I had some some just twisted dried hickory and red oak, and and just pounding it through it, pounding it through it, and and eventually it broke, which any knife will break. But for me personally, you know, I just love the just being able to. the easy to sharpen, you know, 1095. But you know what I've said in videos, what I've said in videos and interviews before, you know, if you want a knife that's not going to rust as bad, or if at all, and retain its edge for a long, long time, then, you know, get the S35VN and just don't abuse it. Just, you know, use it to do knife stuff. Don't get crazy with it. And it'll be fine.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And how have those new S35VN knives sold compared to the 1095?

They're doing really well. You know, we were— that one that I was testing, you know, when it broke, we kind of had a moment of pause because, you know, we're just now releasing this and right off the bat I broke one. But I was out in Idaho.

I remember seeing the video.

Yeah, I was out in Idaho this past week. You know, we had the Idaho bushcraft class and I was talking to Sean Rowan, our manufacturer, about the S35VN.

And he said he hadn't had any sent back.

You know, and so there's a lot out there, and nobody's broken one yet. And you know, not that's not a challenge. So nobody take that the wrong way. But if you use it like you should, yeah, if you use it like you should use a knife, it'll it'll be fine. It'll last a long long time. But if it does break on you, send it in. We'll replace it.

Of course. Yeah, that's great. Great. You guys have such a fantastic warranty too. And I think you know, as product manufacturers and knife designers and all that, we can be a lot harder on our equipment because we're testing. it out and want to push the limits and really see what it can do, which is good because the average consumer, you know, the average user is probably not going to be pushing it to quite those extremes.

Oh yeah, we, you know, we appreciate all of our customers, whether they're buying it to put in a safe or a drawer, or, you know, getting it out to, you know, buying one to use it every day. We'd love to see our stuff get used. Occasionally we do see some get abused and sent in and And you know, we'll still warranty it. But you know, we just love people, you know, seeing people use our stuff for what it was intended for.

Yeah, totally. I know, like on Instagram, I've seen the hashtag #BeaterEsi, people that are just using and abusing them. Those are always pretty cool to see.

Oh yeah. You know, over time, you know, the powder coat will get marked up and start to wear off. And some people are concerned about that when they're purchasing the knife or looking at them at a show. And but just, you know, if if it gets wet, wipe it off. You know, if it gets dirty, you know, clean it. You know, I'm probably the world's worst. as far as taking care of the, you know, oiling, oiling the edge or oiling the blade and worrying about rust and stuff. You know, I don't, I don't worry about that. But I am fortunate enough, I get to use them all the time. And so, you know, that rust comes off when you use it again. But sure, most part, I'll just wipe it on my pants leg and put it back in the sheath and not worry about it.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. What is your personal favorite style of knife? You know, I feel like knives are so personal to us. And as far as the way we want to use— the way we use it, how we, how we use that in the field, and everyone kind of has their own style that they like based on their own use cases. So what is your personal favorite?

For me personally, I love like a spearpoint, 3 to 4 inch blade, no thicker than 1/8 of an inch. You see a lot of trends in the knife world these days where everything's getting thicker, longer, and it's getting, you know, like saw teeth and stuff added to it, you know, tanto point. And the more stuff you do to the knife, it's, you know, it's never going to saw as good as a saw. No matter how big you make it, it's never going to chop as good as an axe. And now that you've done all this to it, it's not going to do standard knife tasks near as well. You know, I see them in classes, you know, all the time. A new student will show up with a great big chopper and, and will quickly see, you know, man, I should have brought a smaller Smaller knife, you know, to do a lot of this stuff. And when they come back, they usually have a smaller knife. And when they come back again, it's even smaller, you know, and, and just see people, you know, learn that what they need, you know, people, a lot of companies will, will tell you what they think you need, or, you know, they'll, they'll try to push stuff on you. And we don't do that, you know, we've got a wide range, everything from, you know, small, you know, up to the, you know, from like a CR 2.5 or the, the Candrew all the way up to like a Hunglas or, you know, machete, big chopper. And, you know, We'll sell you whatever you want, but if you ask, you know, we might ask, well, what do you see yourself using it for? You know, what's the main purpose that you're getting it? And then we'll try to guide people, you know, like that instead of just trying to push, you know, the biggest, most expensive on them.

Sure. Do you remember back like 20, 30 years ago, all those survival knives that were super popular? They had like the screw top pommel where it had like a fishing kit and a compass on the end, and it had serrations on one side, and it was just like It was kind of this Rambo-style knife that everybody had them, everybody loved them. But you know, they— it was kind of like a jack of all trades, master of none, and they were just really bad at doing anything, but they were a cool concept.

I had— yes, I had a black one and my brother had the camouflage one. And it was great at the time. But look, I mean, it's worthless. Looking back, it's just a little, you know, a little nut holding the blade on the handle and, you know, that big bulbous compass and just a steel that you could never sharpen. I mean, you could never get that thing to take an edge or hold an edge. And, but yeah, I think, you know, a bunch of us had them. But for, you know, a lot of people, super gimmicky. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But they sold a ton of them. But a lot of, a lot of people don't know what a good knife is. And I was in the same boat, you know, before I came across ESEE knives. You know, you buy knives at Walmart, you can buy them at a pawn shop, and you think, well, that's a nice, that's a cool looking knife. But until you actually hold and and use and own, you know, a good one, you know, you don't really realize what's out there. And I think that's where a lot of people are at. You know, they may see one of our knives that sells for maybe $100, and they're like, man, I could go buy 4 or 5 knives at Walmart, you know, for that price. Yeah, you could, but, you know, the quality is not there.

So. Yeah, 100%. Totally agree there. It's really interesting to me. It seems like there's different segments of the, of the knife market where you've got guys that they just want something cheap and just get in, go to Walmart, whatever, buy it, um, then they're going to use it and abuse it, and then They'll just buy another one. Then when you go to like Blade Show, which we were both at a few weeks ago, and you see that the average knife price is like $300 or something, you're like, whoa, these are expensive knives. So it's like there's these extremes of them. And I just wonder, are those that are so much more expensive, are they actually getting much use, or are people just buying them as collector's items and they're kind of sitting in the safe or on, on a bookshelf or something? And I'm not sure. And where's that space? sweet spot as far as the price point goes? And what's, you know, something that you got great quality, great value, but it's not so expensive that it's going to price it out of the market for people?

Just at a guess, I would say the majority of the high-end knives like that probably aren't getting used that much. It just depends, you know, the average, average person with average income would be real hesitant to, you know, to go out and spend that much money you know, on a really nice knife, you know, a nice custom knife or whatever, and then go use it like they might use one of ours, justifiably so, you know, you're afraid, you know, if you lose it or damage it, break it, something like that. And, you know, depending on what their warranty is, you might just be out $300. So we try to, you know, we consider ourselves kind of middle, middle of the road. I know Shane, our marketing director, he likes to refer to us as the Glock of knives. You know, it works. It's Not the prettiest, not the most expensive, but it will work and, you know, and it'll be there for you. So that's kind of where we see ourselves.

Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a great analogy. I like that. Tell me about, um, you mentioned the powder coating earlier, um, and, you know, I— that can be a matter of contention for some people, especially if you're doing more bushcrafting and you're trying to scrape a ferro rod, uh, because obviously with a powder coat and kind of the rounded spine, uh, it's hard to do that. And you guys also typically don't have like a notch cut out for that. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Sure. They initially started powder coating the knives, according to Jeff and Mike, because people just don't know how to take care of a knife. And so if it was just uncoated 1095, you know, they're going to rust, it's going to rust. So that's why they started powder coating. A lot of people, you know, I'd seen this on the internet and at classes and stuff, a lot of people were stripping the powder coat off. And putting a 90-degree spine on the knife, you know, with a belt sander or a file, you know, just putting that 90-degree spine so it would strike a ferro rod. And, um, you know, I've done it, and I've done that with a couple just to see, you know, how it turned out or whatever. Um, any sharp edge will strike a ferro rod. So like a piece of glass, a rock, anything with a sharp edge. Um, in an emergency situation with a powder-coated knife, you could just use the edge. But, you know, if you're just lighting fires in your backyard on a regular basis, you know, eventually that edge is going to start to roll. Um, And so that's why when we were coming out what was called the Camplore line, you know, the, the JG3, the RB3, the PR4, and the CR2.5— when we started coming out with these, those are all uncoated and have the, the 90-degree spine. And that was just for the folks that, you know, that like using the spine of the knife, you know, to strike the ferro rod. Truth be known, most ferro rods come with a striker. But it's, you know, I'm right there with them as far as, you know, it's fun to use the spine of your knife to, you know, to strike the rod with. So I understand completely.

Yeah, totally. Which— what do you feel is the best knife that ESEE makes? I know that might be like asking who's your favorite kid?

Well, you know, if you look solely at numbers, as far as serial numbers, the numbers sold, the Izula is still, you know, the hands-down winner. We're up over 100,000 of them sold.

Wow.

A couple reasons, you know, a couple reasons for that. It's smaller. You can wear, you know, slip, you know, slip it in your pocket or drop it in a backpack. It's not, it's not going to intimidate anybody if they saw it. If you're at a work job, you know, at a job or work site, you pull that out to perform a task or whatever, they're not going to flip out on you as much. And it's, you know, you could probably shop around and get one for, you know, $50, $60, you know, so it's also very affordable. And, and, you know, can handle a wide, you know, wide variety of common knife tasks.

Yeah, that's interesting. I would not have guessed that that is the most popular. My guess would have been more like the SE3 or the 4, just based on its— what to me seems more versatile.

Yeah, the 3 and 4, the serial numbers, they're up there, you know, pretty high. We've sold quite a few of them. But the Izula, you know, still in the lead. You know, I've seen, you know, people carrying the 3 in their pocket, you know, in the sheath in their pocket. But the Izula, you know, it's It slips in there, you know, a little bit easier and not as bulky. So, you know, you could work at a bank and have that in your pocket and nobody would know.

So sure. Yeah, that makes sense. And what's your personal favorite of all of the ones you guys carry?

I'm fortunate enough to get to use them all at a regular basis. And it would be really hard to pick one out. Probably my favorite as far as all-around comfort and use is the 3HM. You know, we took the standard ESEE 3 and people were asking for No choil. They're asking to get rid of the jimping on the back of the spine and to get rounder, more contoured scales. And so when we came up with that, the first time I held it, I'm like, yeah, this is perfect. You know, 3-inch blade, it's 1/8 of an inch thick. And so the first one, you know, first one I got, I did what a lot of people do, strip the coating off and put a 90-degree spine on it and called it good.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

And how has the response been to those contoured handles? Because I know for a long time you guys just had the, just the flat micarta handles. So I know you kind of switched over to some of the contoured G10 ones.

That's, that's been really huge. You know, people are really enjoying the feel of it and the look of it, you know, the different colors that they're coming out with, you know, for the different knives. And, you know, we're very well You know, very pleased in how it's doing. You know, a lot of people that already have our knives are now going out and buying those, you know, just, just to, just for the comfort and the, you know, the contoured scales. And so even though they may already own a couple of ESEE-3s, well, now they're going out and buying, you know, a couple more. So, and we greatly appreciate that also.

Yeah, of course. I feel like it's when, when you find a company that you like, you know, people do business with those that they know, like, and trust. And when you purchase a product and you find that it works really well, it's high quality, and you can trust it, great warranty and all that, it makes sense to buy additional ones from them. I mean, I probably have— I don't think I have every knife you guys make, but quite a few of them anyway. And just, you know, they're great all-around knives.

I understand completely. You know, before I came to work for them, you know, I was, you know, just as bad. I went to, uh, you know, Brigade Quartermaster store down in Kennesaw, you know, after looking at that catalog, and all they had was a An old RAT 3 with the partially serrated blade, which wasn't what I wanted. But I went ahead and bought it. And, you know, tried to get by with, you know, leaving the serrations alone for a while, and then I couldn't take it anymore. So I filed those down and turned it into just a plain edge. And, and that's where it started for me. And after that, I bought several, you know, I spent quite a bit of money buying this one and that one. And before I, you know, I make a joke that, you know, it's so addictive that, you know, I was spending so much money, I had to get a job with them, you know, to keep from, keep from having to buy any Yeah, exactly.

That's easy to do, especially when, you know, you find something that you really enjoy and you're like, oh, I want all the gear.

And just collecting it. Yeah.

What are some of the future plans for ESEE as far as new product lines, new knife designs, all of that?

We've got a lot of stuff on the back burner right now. The biggest thing now is just keeping up with production demands. You know, the company's growing and sales have been great. You know, 2020 was a very, you know, probably our best year so far. And I think a big part of that was people were stuck at home, and people were stuck at home and surfing the internet. And, and, and so knife sales are up, just like, you know, a lot of stuff when there's any kind of turmoil in the world, gun sales and knife sales, you know, are greatly increased.

Yep.

So right now we're just looking to try to, you know, we probably won't have anything new coming out for you know, maybe another show or two. We've got some stuff that's, that's close, you know, ready to be released. But the biggest thing, you know, when I was up at the shop talking to the Rowlands, uh, the biggest thing is just keeping up with production.

Yeah, totally.

Production demand.

That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, it seems like whenever there is especially political upheaval or unrest or election years and everything last year with COVID and all that, where, you know, who knows what's going to happen, it's kind of the whole preparation survival mindset where people just want to to hunker down and try to have some stability and control in a very uncertain world, you know.

Yeah, I think that was a big part of the spike in sales is, you know, a lot of people, like you said, are more interested in, you know, what if, what if we don't go back to work, or what if this happens or that happens, or, you know, the civil unrest, and wanting to have just some, you know, just some food stockpiled and some gear and, you know, just, just-in-case type items. And, and I think, you know, that You know, helped drive sales up last year.

Yeah, for sure. Can definitely see that. And I'm guessing that affected some of the courses as well. Obviously, you know, with all the shutdowns and stuff, probably there are some of the training and courses didn't happen. But how has that affected since reopening?

So, we, you know, starting around March, our regular, you know, open enrollment type classes that, you know, anybody could take, all those we had to push back later in the year. We continued to teach classes with public safety groups, you know, teaching some of the search and rescue classes, you know, some of the different agencies. And so we stayed busy, but just the regular, you know, regular class classes we do at the farm or at Jeff's house, you know, Jeff's property, those got pushed back. And we started back probably with those in August, and since August of last year, we haven't slowed down at all. I mean, it's just been wide, wide open. We're seeing record class sizes, you know, where a normal class, you know, we might have 10 or 12 students. Nowadays, that 10 or 12 is turning into, you know, 17, 18, 19 students, you know, just people wanting to get out and learn and get out, you know, get outside and train and just learn as much as they can. And people seem to be just Just thrilled to be able to get back out and do stuff again. So that's really been filling classes here lately.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Let me ask you a logistical question. And this is something that I think about when it comes to courses and being out in the woods, especially in the summer and early fall. How do you deal with all the ticks? Because obviously in the South and on the East Coast and everything, there are ticks everywhere. And with the prevalence of Lyme disease and alpha-gal and everything just becoming more and more common, What do you do about that?

Some type of bug repellent. Just really spray, you know, we'll be outside, you know, throughout these classes and we always have some in the classroom if students don't have any, if they haven't brought any. But, you know, just really, you know, spray my boots and pants legs down and waistline. That's usually where I'll pick up ticks is, you know, they'll either come up, you know, climb up your boot, up your sock, on your leg, or, you know, I seem to get around the waistline, you know, they'll crawl up your pants and then, you know, where you get up under your shirt, you know, they'll attach there. Um, yeah, you're right, it's just the ticks seem more prevalent, more and more, you know, prevalent each year. So, um, yeah, some type of spray, you know, some of them, some of the guys will, you know, spray their clothing or gear down with the— I can't pronounce it— permethrin. Yeah, I know, permethrin. And, uh, but I, I haven't fooled with that, you know, just basically just, you know, whatever, Off, you know, Off or any other bug repellent, something like Have you found that to work pretty well? Yeah, yeah, it seems to. Um, you know, we, we have our own search and rescue team also, and so we've been doing a lot of callouts, you know, lately. And, um, one of the long extended ones we were doing just a few weeks ago, a lot of ticks. And, uh, I had sprayed myself down really well and, and just never had to, you know, would find one or two here and there, but they weren't attached yet. Uh, usually, you know, I'll find 2 or 3 that have already attached, but so So just good use of the bug spray and just being, you know, before you head out, spray it down with it and seems to work real good.

Yeah, makes sense. Got to take those precautions because those buggers are not fun. Little bastards. Patrick, going back to what we were talking about as far as how things have grown just over the past year and stuff in the outdoor space and, you know, with whenever there is uncertainty and things like that, there's so many companies in the outdoor space, the knife space, survival, you know, all of these overlapping industries, and the quality can vary greatly depending on who it is, where it's made, and all that. Do you feel like there's too many companies now? There's either too much competition or the— just the quality level is not where it should be?

As far as you talk gear or training?

Yeah, more gear, but we can get in the training side too.

Okay, no, let's talk about both. Yeah, I think there's enough knife enthusiasts out there. them for all the companies. You know, you see that with some of the crowds at Blade Show. Some people may be all about collecting, you know, the cheaper $15, $20 knives or have a huge collection of the cheaper stuff, as much as the guy that's out buying, you know, the $400 or $500 customs. I think there's a wide range of people with different levels of affordability and what they can afford to purchase. As far as quality, You know, it just depends on, on how much you're going to be using it or how hard you're going to be using it. You know, I've seen some really cheaply made and cheap to purchase knives that looked really good. You know, some of the stuff you see, you know, made overseas, it looks great, you know, but you know, if it's just going to be sitting in a drawer on a table or hanging on the wall, you know, that's fine. But if you're going to be out trying to use it, it's probably not going to hold up that good. good. Um, yeah, so it just, you know, just depends on what the final use, you know, what the final intention is for.

That makes sense. And what about as far as the survival courses go?

Um, I think that, you know, there's a lot out there right now. Um, not knocking anybody, you know, that's— as long as it's good information and they're not putting out anything, you know, that could cause somebody any harm or, or put them at risk or anything like that, you know, the more, um, The more widespread it is, you know, the better. You just have to do your research and try to, you know, find some other folks that have taken a class from a certain, you know, certain place or whatever and just get feedback from them and just, you know, do as much research as you can. Just, you know, kind of feel them out and, and just, you know, see if it's for you. The way I look at training and taking classes is if I go take a class and I pick up just one or two tidbits of information that I didn't know beforehand, for me that's worth it. You know, don't expect for everything you see to be, you know, the newest and greatest way to do something or whatever. A lot of this stuff that we're teaching, and it's, I mean, it's been done for hundreds and hundreds of years, you know, it's, you're not reinventing the wheel. There's just different, different ways of looking at stuff and different techniques that you can pick up along the way. So if you can find a class somewhere and learn just one or two things And, you know, it ought to be worth it for you.

Yeah, that makes sense. On that note, do you feel like there are certain courses that everyone should take as far as just basic skills, whether that's one that, that Randall's Adventure and Training teaches or any type of outdoor survival primitive skills course or class that would just be good for everyone to have just in their own knowledge bank?

I think any class, you know, if you have— if someone has no experience And is going to be doing a lot of stuff in the outdoors, basic knowledge of using knives and tools, you know, how to use a knife safely, how to use a folding saw, you know, anything like that you might be using, whether they're going camping or backpacking or something like that. Just, you know, the basics of it. How to start a fire, very important. You know, everybody that does anything outdoors should have fire making down pretty well. It could keep you alive, you know, if the weather turned bad and you were stuck there overnight, you know, Being able to stay warm might play a big role in that. Being able to signal, you know, been several case studies where, you know, a person was lost and they came close to finding them, and if they would have just, you know, had a big fire going, it greatly would have helped, you know, rescue personnel in locating them. Just, you know, just basic stuff. How to set up a tent, you know, how to set up a tent, how to hang their hammock, you know, just, you know, a lot of people— A lot of people that that are wanting to get out more and do more stuff and go camping and hiking and backpacking and stuff, but they don't really know where to start. So just good basic skills, how to go use the bathroom in the woods. There's people that don't have a clue how to do that. And it's stuff that our grandparents and great-grandparents, and the further back you go, I mean, it was just everyday stuff. They were making fires every day. They were using knives. They were using tools, axes, saws every day. And the more technological advanced we get, we see people just getting away from that. And, um, you know, there's probably grown men that have never used a knife for anything or never split wood with an axe or made a fire outside, you know. And it's— and we're going to see more and more of that as we progress.

Yeah, it certainly seems like it. Technology just keeps rolling on and it seems like we're getting away from a lot of those things.

Oh yeah.

Patrick, do you have a favorite class to teach?

I really love the bushcraft classes we do. James Gibson, you know, a fellow instructor, he comes on, you know, we use him part-time to To help with the bushcraft class. James been in the bushcraft primitive skills for a long time and just a joy to be around. And that class is laid back, you know, it's all just learning the skills. You know, some of our other classes are a little more intense as far as like our 3-day field survival class. It's a lot tougher because we're trying to, to recreate what you would be going through in a real scenario. You know, the sleep deprivation, the hunger, the physical stress, the mental stress. And we try to really pack all that into that class, where the bushcraft class is just laid back, sitting around a fire, learning the skills, you know, and, and just learning as a group. And it's just, just a lot of fun. You know, the field survival is fun too, but, uh, you know, people are really pushed, you know, going through that one, seeing You know, a lot of the skills that you could— I mean, a lot of it you could learn just by watching videos or whatever. You know, some of the stuff that's taught, like the knife skills and the fire making and shelter making and stuff like that. But with the field survival class, they're learning all the skills and then they're having to put them into practice, you know, throughout the night with different, you know, team challenges and, you know, different stuff like that just to keep them, keep them busy and keep them moving and And I tell people just one foot in front of the other. Yeah, this sucks. You know, this is a terrible. This is terrible now. But when the class is over, you'll look back on it. You'll really appreciate it. And and just you know seeing what how your body performs. You know, can I figure out how to to land nav and use map and compass when I haven't slept? You know, in two days. You know that that kind of thing. And it's just a real eye opener for a lot of people. But people keep signing up for it. They you know they love it. Love love pushing themselves and and and seeing how they do. So but for me, the boot. I just love working with James and just the whole aspect of it.

Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah, it seems like there's an element of the philosophy of getting comfortable with being uncomfortable when it comes to this.

That's the biggest part of it. We talk about pushing your boundaries or expanding your boundaries when it comes to stuff. Now, I've had a student sign up for a class. The Amazon jungle survival class that had never camped. He had never spent— his first night spent outdoors was in the Amazon jungle in a swamp bed that he built. And I told him before we started the class, I said, my hat's off to you. You're jumping into it with both feet, but you're not coming in here with any preconceived ideas, or this is how we always did it in the military, or this is how Granddad said I had to do it or whatever. He was coming in with an open mind, you know, just a clean slate. And, and he did fine, you know. So a lot of the classes that we do help people, you know, expand, you know, their comfort level and, you know, getting, you know, being able to spend a rough night in the woods. You know, that's a lot of the classes that we'll teach are the basics, getting somebody ready to do that. Like if they're out hunting or hiking or whatever, and they're going to be stuck out overnight because of weather, you know, Or whatever, just being able to make it through that rough night. You know, take the steps you need to get you a shelter if you don't have anything with you, get you a shelter built, you know, get you a fire made and still be alive come morning. That's the big part of them.

Yeah, no, that's good info. So one of the things we like to talk about on the show is conservation and living in a harmonious and kind of symbiotic relationship with nature. Is Essie or Randall's doing anything on the conservation side to really kind of help push that envelope? Because obviously, you know, we're, we're losing some of those wild spaces, whether that's with urban sprawl or with some of the pesticides we're spraying that are killing insects and things like that, because there's, you know, this whole life cycle and, and all that. Can you speak to that at all?

Not a whole lot. I don't really know of anything as a company that we might be doing as far as, you know, conservation. I know with the, the Rowans, do a lot of recycling. You know, when they laser out the knife blades or anything that's not up to par or whatever, all the steel gets recycled. And I know, so, you know, at the shop, they seem to be on the ball as far as not trying to cut back on waste and that sort of thing. So, you know, as far as anything other than that, I don't know of anything.

Gotcha. Okay. One of the organizations that we've associated ourselves with is 2% for Conservation, and they certify different Brands and companies as far as that have dedicated, you know, 2% of their time and resources to conservation efforts. And that can be in a lot of different ways. That's a company you might want to check into just because it's so important as far as to focus on those things because, you know, we're— we love nature. We love the outdoors and the wilderness and being able to spend time there. And, you know, if we don't protect it, there's just so many infringements upon that. And we're gonna lose it and stuff. So it's really scary as far as what could happen. Keep polluting, whether that's our waterways, our soil, and all that. Patrick, what's your, what's your most memorable outdoor experience and what did you learn from that?

I've had, had several, you know, growing up. You know, you learn from your mistakes and I don't consider myself an expert in anything at all. But if you make tons of mistakes and you learn from them, you're gonna learn quite a bit. So there were several nights growing up as a kid, you know, with friends, you know, with a buddy of mine, uh, let's go out in the woods and let's make a fire and stay out overnight. And, and so you're laying there on the cold ground, you don't, you know, you don't— no sleeping bag, you don't try to insulate yourself from the ground, and you lay there and shiver all night, you know. And so that'll stick with you. Um, and, you know, you make these mistakes and you, and you learn you don't want to make them again. Um, but probably one of the most memorable experiences I've had is my first trip down to the Amazon jungle. Um, you know, I'd done all sorts of stuff here in the Southeast of the U.S.— camping, hiking, backpacking, you know, the whole 9 yards. Um, go down to the Amazon jungle to assist, uh, with the class that first time, and, you know, I live in Georgia and most of our classes are in Alabama. It's hot and it's humid during the summertime, um, but that down there was a whole new level. Um, heat and humidity, Bugs like you wouldn't believe. You know, you look down at the ground and the ground's moving because of the amount of insects. And so, you know, just that first jungle class was just a real eye-opener of, you know, almost like, okay, there's levels, you know, there's levels to this outdoor game. But, you know, within a day or two, you're used to it. And, you know, getting bug bits, no big deal. And, you know, it's just, you just get used to it. And, and so by the end of the class, loving it, can't wait to come back. And then each trip down there has been like that, just, just a fun, fun place to visit.

Yeah, it's funny how adaptable we can be if we just kind of let go and dig in, you know.

Absolutely.

Is, is there a life lesson that nature and the outdoors has taught you over the years?

Um, I'd say the biggest thing is, um, just, just be adaptable, uh, be able to, you know, to adapt to change. Like we mentioned earlier, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You know, it's not— there's people that will only do stuff outside when it's cool weather. They don't want to do anything when it's hot, or it might be the other way around. They only, you know, want to get out when in the summertime. They don't want to do anything in the winter or whatever. Just get used to it. I mean, enjoy the outside year-round. You know, if you'll only do it when it's warm, then you're really limiting, you know, yourself to a lot of ways what you, what you can see and experience just by, you know, not being out there. So that's probably the, probably the biggest thing.

Good point. Doing so much work in the outdoors and with the training courses and all of that, what gear do you consider essential that you always take with you, whether, you know, you're just going for a hike or you're doing a training course, or just recommendations that you give to some of your class participants?

In a lot of the classes, I'll, I'll Teach and pass on, you know, what Dave Canterbury calls it the 5 C's. You may have heard it. Anybody that does anything outdoors, you need to have a cutting tool. And a lot of these, a lot of several of these, it's not enough just to have one on you. You might want to have a backup. And so if you're going to be doing a lot outdoors, you might want to have a fixed blade knife and a folding knife, because if you break one or lose it, you know, then you know you've got something to fall back on. Another C is combustion. Have a way to make fire. Have a couple of ways to make fire. Have a ferro rod, you know, have a lighter, you know, also just a Bic lighter. Don't carry them in the same place. Don't have all that in your pack, you know, just in case you lose your backpack or it falls, you know, out of the canoe in the river or something like that. Cordage, carry some form of string, paracord, bank line, anything like that. You might have to do some kind of gear repair, some kind of lashing, something. A container, something to transport water in. It's good if it's stainless or titanium in case you have to purify water in it if you're out there for an extended time. And some form of COVID some form of waterproof barrier like a tarp, lightweight backpacking tarp, or even like a large contractor-sized trash bag, something that you could cut the seams and open up just if it came a downpour and you needed to stay dry or Or even with the trash bag, you cut you a face hole and 2 arm holes and you've got a homemade poncho. And all of those can be recreated in nature, but it requires a very high level of skill and a lot of it would take a long time to create. So it's better just to carry it. And that's what we teach in a lot of the bushcraft classes where we're making cordage or we're making a container or something like that, is if this doesn't teach you anything, It'll teach you to carry this stuff. Like with friction fire, you know, if somebody's bow drilling or hand drilling and, you know, struggling for a long time, they will remember that for, you know, it's not— it's great skill to know. It's not something you'd ever want to have to rely on. Yeah. So carry, you know, carry ways to make fire.

Yeah, that's a great point for sure. Let's do a pocket dump. What, what do you have in your pockets right now as far as just basic everyday carry type I've always got the Victorinox Outrider.

You know, usually carry some type of pocket knife, but this is one I've found. This is actually my second one. I used the other one so much that I had to retire it. The blade, you know, the main blade was getting a little loose. I wanted the one with the biggest, the biggest blade, then the longest saw, and a pair of scissors. And my friend Reuben, another instructor, you know, He is an expert when it comes to all the different Swiss Army knives, and that's the one he recommended. That, and I've always got cigarette lighter, just some way of making fire. That's, you know, at a minimum, going to the store, going to town, you know, going to a class or whatever, just, you know, a cutting tool and a way to make fire.

It's funny, those are the 2 things that we're not supposed to fly with when on an airplane, and 2 most essential Yeah, just flew back from Idaho and you really feel naked, you know, when you don't have anything in your pockets. Man, I hear that. Totally agree. Patrick, other than, other than ESEE, what other companies, gear brands do you feel like are doing just a really good job of quality?

There's a lot of great stuff out there. Like, you know, love Victorinox with the Swiss Army knives. Several of us on the, on our search and rescue team and And other employees just, you know, we get to use a lot of stuff doing the classes, doing the trips, you know, the training. Osprey backpacks, you know, Osprey, you know, makes great backpacks. Several of us have those. I've got a Warbonnet hammock, you know, that I've been on a lot of trips, you know, both here in the States and down in the Amazon. Big Agnes, you know, the tents. I've got one of their— I think it's the Copper Spur. tent that's been around the block, you know. Oh yeah, yeah, lightweight, packs up small, and it's just tough. And I've used it, you know, out there in Idaho. Um, also, you know, a lot of great comp— Black Diamond, you know, there's, there's tons of great companies out there that, that, uh, you know, we'll use their stuff and they seem to stand by them, you know, stand by their product. And, you know, it's just great when there's, there's companies like that out there.

Yeah, for sure. Always looking for kind of the best quality. And, you know, my motto has always been quality over quantity. And buy once, cry once, you know.

That's it, because it can get expensive.

Yeah, it can. Patrick, what book or books have had the biggest impact on your life over the years?

Probably the 2 that come to mind are Camping and Woodcraft by Horace Kephart. Came out, you know, probably around 100 years ago. A lot of good information in it that's still true today. Like I mentioned earlier, this stuff's, you you know, this stuff isn't new that, you know, people were getting out and practicing and doing and learning how to do. So we're having to relearn a lot of it, but just a lot of good information in that one. And also Bushcraft by Morris Kohanski, a lot of good information in there. James and I were fortunate enough to get up there in Karamat Wilderness, you know, where Morris was teaching.

Yeah.

And, uh, in February of 2019, and we're able to take a, you know, their class, their winter class up there, and That was the last class that Moores was a part of. He passed away not too long after that. And so it was a great experience getting up there, getting to meet him, you know, getting to hear his stories. And, you know, Kelly Harlton is the lead instructor up there, so Kelly did the majority of the teaching. But just, you know, Moores was there the first day and he came by on the last day. And just to listen to him talk and tell stories and stuff was just a great experience. And, and that book, you know, brought it with me and, uh, got him to autograph it while I was up there. And it's just got a ton of good information in it.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah.

Do you have a favorite podcast that you listen to?

Um, listen to a lot of, uh, JRE, you know, Joe Rogan Experience. Um, Meat Eaters with, uh, Steven Elephant. Listen to, you know, a lot of that. Um, started getting in listening to more, um, more, um, like historical podcasts. You know, I love learning about history and stuff like that. So I can't remember the name of them, but there's a couple of Old West type podcasts, you know, telling stories of different outlaws and, you know, different aspects of the Indian Wars and stuff like that. And I find that that's real interesting.

Yeah, great. Thank you. Patrick, what is one piece of advice that you would give to our audience?

Um, if there's anything that you're wanting to learn how to do, just, just get out there and do it. Research it. Um, you know, that's a lot of the stuff that That, that we teach. You know, there's videos out there. You know, if you can watch videos, it's great to learn from an instructor. But like the— when it came to friction fire and making fire with a bow drill, I spent probably 2 months watching videos, looking at it in books, and trying and trying and trying over and over and over every day until finally had success. And, and just, you, you learn by doing. You know, the way James and I teach it now We're probably seeing 90 to 95% success rate because we're making it as easy as possible for these students to learn on their first attempt. They can always make it harder and try to not use pre-prepared material, go out and find what you need, that kind of thing. But just get out and just keep trying it until you learn it.

Yeah, that's great advice. Thank you. Patrick, are you 100% Yes. Do you have a favorite species that you like to hunt, favorite location?

Here in the Southeast, love whitetail deer. Just getting into turkey hunting. It's a lot more— turkey hunting can be a lot more aggravating. I told a friend of mine, if deer hunting was as aggravating as turkey hunting, I'd probably just hang it all up and not hunt anymore. But it, you know, that's the main 2, deer and turkey. We'll do some small game, you know, squirrel and rabbits also, but for the most part, deer.

Got it.

Super, Patrick.

This has been a lot of fun. Really enjoyed chatting today. Where can people find out more about you and find you online and the company and all that fun stuff?

I think you can go to seeknives.com, E-S-E-E knives.com. Or also randallsadventure.com. You know, the ESEE Knives page, that's the gear, you know, that's our page for the knives. The Randall's Adventure is for the training side, and you'll see, you know, classes schedule, frequently asked questions, just pictures from previous classes, and, and just a ton of information on there. There's downloads, you know, a lot of our PowerPoints that we use in the classes, the full PowerPoints on the website, free to download. You know, we're just trying to get the information out there. So You know, feel free to, to get on there and download it and, and look it over.

That's great. Thank you. And just real quick, I meant to ask this earlier and kind of slipped my mind. Um, Essie is all direct-to-consumer. You guys aren't in any retail stores, correct?

Um, we sell to, to dealers, and— but it's, um, we don't sell direct. You know, we don't— you can't order straight from us. We sell to dealers because we don't want to compete with our own dealers. dealers. And that's why I like it at Blade Show, you know, people were getting a little aggravated because we had our knives there, but we don't sell direct to the customer, we sell to the dealers. And so we would send them to, you know, Smoky Mountain Knife Works or Blade HQ. And once they ran out of our stock, you know, that they brought, then the people were just, you know, I can't buy it from you. And they're like, no, you know, we're not set up to sell direct because we don't want to compete with our own dealers.

That's, that's interesting, especially in this day and age with everything being online and stuff. So where every— so many things are direct to consumer. So that's interesting that you guys decided to go that route.

Now you can, I think you can order a knife from us, you know, from through the ESEE Knives page, but it's like an MSRP. And so it's a whole lot more expensive. Some people just want to buy from the source. And So we just— yes, we do have some in stock, you know, in the office, but it's at MSRP, which is gonna be a lot more than you'd pay, you know, just shopping around online.

Yeah. And I think one of the reasons that people would rather go direct to the source is because Amazon has made things so easy to purchase and just— you can just go there and buy it. However, you never know, is who I'm ordering from on Amazon, is that some type of weird reseller? Is it a Chinese knockoff? Or is it actually the company that is making and selling this? And so when you're going direct to, to the manufacturer or the brand itself, you kind of know what you're getting, you know, if you've done your research. So I think there's a little bit of hesitancy there. And that's why, because people want to connect with, with companies that they know, like, and trust, and those brands that espouse quality, which you guys obviously do.

I appreciate that. Yeah, I understand that. Several of our knives are starting to get knocked off. And you will find them on Amazon. You know, like I mentioned, the Azula, being the most popular model, well, it's also the one that's, you know, getting, getting knocked off the most. So if you, you know, if anybody's looking on Amazon looking at our products and has any questions, you know, whether they're authorized dealer or not, you can go to our webpage and, uh, and see a list of authorized dealers. And if it's not on there, just shoot us an email, info@essieknives.com, and somebody will get back with you and let you know if yes, they're a dealer for us, or, or if we've never Gotcha.

Yeah. So you're just allowing authorized dealers to sell on Amazon, but you're not doing that either?

Yeah. We're not selling direct to Amazon, but we do have a couple of dealers. I know Prime Valley used to be Tactical Intent, but they changed the name to Prime Valley. I know they sell— they're an authorized dealer of ours and they do sell, you know, quite a bit on Amazon. Got it.

Well, this has been great, Patrick. Thanks for all the information. Thanks for your time today. Really appreciate it. And I think I think the audience is going to really get a lot of value here as well.

My pleasure. Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that.

Check us out.

At rewildgear.com.