Ep 20: Mansal Denton on Sacred Hunting

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to the Adventure Made Podcast, produced by Rewild Gear. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I am here today with Mansell Denton. Little Beaver is his nickname. He is the founder of Sacred Hunting, host of the Mansell Denton Podcast, and the subject of an upcoming documentary called Below the Drop, exploring our relationship to life and death through hunting. Feeling insecure in early life, he chased a woman to Europe, which led him to prison. Can't wait to dig into this one. Struggling with shame and confusion of what it meant to be a man, he found his calling with the sacred art of hunting. He now desires to share this practice with more men. His indigenous name comes from a Crow Sundance chief. His spiritual lineage is derived from 7 years of mentorship from a Muscogee Creek medicine man named Will Starheart. Ansel, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Totally glad you could be here. Ansel, I'm really excited to dig into this. So, you know, we met through a mutual friend about a month or so ago, John Durant, and looks like we've just found out that we have quite a few mutual friends as well. Kind of in the Austin, Texas area. And when I found out what you were doing, you know, leading men into the wilderness on hunts and vision quests and things like that, just became completely fascinated by it. So I'm really excited to dig in today and hear your story and learn all about what you're doing.

Yeah, beautiful, man. It's amazing how many, how many like-minded friends we have when you're doing interesting work.

Totally. I completely agree there. Let's, let's dig into your background story. How did you get to where you are today? leading sacred hunts and these vision quests?

Well, it's been a process of remembering and finding the true version of myself. That's the, that's the, the best way that I can explain it. I, as the, the bio that you read mentioned, I really struggled with what the definition or what the virtues around masculinity were for the current civilization and paradigm that we live in. Obviously, we're not in an environment as our ancestors were, and that creates so many different ways of relating to our masculinity, to each other, to women, the feminine. And I grew up with a lot of confusion. And, you know, the, the long story short is, is I have been able to utilize that wound of feeling like inadequately guided as a man and turned it into my gold or my gift that I can give back to others. And so I think, you know, you've— And probably the audience have experienced situations where people's like deepest insecurities and challenges in life often become the thing that they are specifically designed to teach. Jung had a quote around a tree growing to heaven can only have roots that grow downwards towards hell.

Hmm.

That is kind of the, the long arc of, of the journey that I've been on to facilitating men's work and transformation within the context of a, of a reverent and sacred hunting practice. Got it.

Yeah, that's, that's deep. There's a lot there and I want to dig into more. I want to hear that background story as far as chasing a woman to Europe and ending up in prison over that.

Yeah, well, You know, I was in high school and had many of the insecurities and challenges that come up with, uh, with high school and different hierarchy and social, you know, stratas and things like that. I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood, and race was definitely a part of my upbringing and a part of the unconscious or even conscious stories that I was telling myself about how I measured up. And in that, that not knowing, uh, you know, if I was good enough in regards to, uh, intimacy with, with white women in particular, I just started to grow my insecurities. I started to grow, uh, this This, uh, this sense of lack, and it culminated in a decision, uh, kind of unconscious decision to get to, uh, Europe and get to a woman who I was connected with by any means necessary. And I put blinders on in order to achieve that. And basically what I was doing, I was in high school, I was, I was working as an intern in a small museum, and there were historical documents there. I was already collecting historical documents and other artifacts and things like that, so I knew that there was a market for them. I knew that they were valuable, and so I stole them, and I sold them when I was 18, 19 years old and used that money to go to Europe and to live in Europe and, you know, you know, colloquially chase a girl, basically. And I came back after 2 years to the United States. And that's when, you know, the jig was up. I got arrested. I spent— so I got arrested 2 years after I committed the crime. I then spent another 4 years essentially waiting for the case to come to fruition.

Wow.

And so, you know, 6 years after everything had happened, I was sentenced to spend time in prison and that became one of the greatest turning points and one of the greatest things that ever happened to me as far as learning and growing in my wisdom. And Robert Bly has a term for it called ashes. It's a time of essentially deep introspective work.

Yeah.

Uh, and it wasn't something that I was intentionally doing, you know, at the time, but it was something that I— just surviving was my work.

Yeah. What was that experience like in prison? Because I'm sure that was, you know, behind bars and your whole— your freedom, you know, your sense of autonomy is completely taken away. How did that transform you just Going through that experience?

Yeah, there was 2 really distinct phases of my time in prison, and they have forever given me a sense of essentially sovereignty and agency around my own beliefs and my belief systems. And basically what happened was the first 3 months I was purely in a state of resistance, of counting down the days, distracting myself, trying to do anything in my power to get out of the moment so that I could forget the fact that I was powerless and didn't have any control of my situation. And I had a rock bottom moment which included tears. It included Uh, you know, family members passing away. It included, uh, unknowns about my duration of prison stay. And with that rock bottom moment, I just— something happened. Well, what happened is I, I started to surrender, and it was kind of forced on me. I didn't really have the awareness to make that decision at the time, but I was forced to surrender. And the second half of my prison stay was the complete opposite of the first. I resolved to make the best of what I was given in that situation. I read every possible book that I could find that was gonna, you know, improve my perspective, my knowledge, or my wisdom. I worked out every single day. I started eating different foods that were more in alignment with, you know, what my body desired. Some, you know, there's— you can buy like really, really poor quality tuna packs, uh, for example. So, you know, not healthy by my standards today, but at the very least it was better than trying to eat cookies, uh, to, to, uh, uh, mitigate the, the negative emotions of where I was. So yeah, it was, it was kind of 2 completely different experiences in prison.

Gotcha. Wow. Yeah, that sounds incredibly transformative. And, you know, I have found that sometimes in times of our deepest crises, that our mental outlook and attitude and how we go about handling that and internalizing it, you know, it can make us bitter or it can make us better. And so it sounds like you definitely took the latter path, which is a testament to you.

Thank you. Yeah, I was bitter at first and it slowly became better.

Yeah, great. Let's talk about Sacred Hunting. What is it? How did you decide to start it? And let's dig into all those details.

Yeah, well, Sacred Hunting is first and foremost an organization that facilitates transformation in men, in primarily men. We also have some co-ed experiences. But The objective is to use— there's so many different tools for people to transform their experience. I inadvertently found prison, but then after prison, I found men's work. Mankind Project is a certain type of men's community that allows them to, you know, men around the world to connect to their emotions, their feelings, share with others, etc. There's different Uh, you know, people grow and transform sometimes through yoga even, or meditation or plant medicine. And so sacred hunting, it utilizes some unique tools to facilitate the transformation. And I use tools that are particularly valuable for me. I use, uh, hunting in a, in an indigenous-oriented way, using a lot of the, the rites and rituals that many indigenous and, and north and South American peoples would have used and still use in their hunting practice. And I use plant medicines in order to facilitate transformation. And the, the reason I think that it's been so appealing is because these are some of the original transformational tools. Before there was NLP, before there was tapping, before there was any of the modern uh, practices that came about after humans had a lot of time with agriculture on their hands to, you know, create things. There were practices of our hunter-gatherer ancestors, and, you know, plant medicines were relatively available. And by some accounts, we may have even evolved as a result of utilizing different plant medicines and fungal medicines. So that's a very old practice and tool. And hunting obviously predates our species. So the combination is, is just something that's so innate in us that it allows a gateway for a lot of people, and men in particular, to feel comfortable engaging in transformational work.

Got it. So tell me more about some of those indigenous practices when it comes To and surrounding hunting itself?

Yeah, there's— first and foremost, there's a, there's a lot of superstitions that come with a hunting practice for indigenous people because so much of their, their livelihood— so to survive, they had to be successful on a hunt. And to be unsuccessful in the past gave them a great sense of gratitude and appreciation for the times when they actually were able to kill an animal. And that gratitude, that appreciation over time, it starts to elevate animals to the status of essentially gods. And so, you have this really interesting dynamic where for so many indigenous people, their They're seeking to find, hunt, and kill their brothers or their sisters or their gods. And so when that happens, which totally makes sense, you start to really— I think any culture starts to worship the things that bring life to it. And so somewhat ridiculous abomination is the current consumerist culture and the things that we worship as a culture around our phone or laptops or whatever.

Money, et cetera.

Exactly. So, but they were reliant on their animals. And so, there was this really interesting intertwining of spiritual god status and the food that they were eating. And with that came all kinds of taboos and practices. Um, specifically that I bring into the practice is, is the use of, uh, asking for permission to be on the land. So really taking a moment to connect with the land and, and ask, hey, I am a small living being amongst this much greater living being, which is the planet. And there are other creatures here on this land. And I'm simply asking with humility, uh, the, the spirits, the land, can I be on this land? Can I be, uh, you know, hunting on this land? Asking for permission. And also when I take an animal, when I kill an animal, offering, uh, tobacco. So tobacco is the main offering that's used for a lot of North American tribes as a, as a symbol of, of, of exchanging value. And so I'll, I'll leave tobacco when I ask permission to be in the land. I'll leave tobacco when I kill an animal, uh, as a way of saying my thanks for, for, uh, you know, I'm, I'm taking something, so I'm going to leave something. And so much of it is symbolic, but it is a different way of relating to the land than, than most Western culture, that's for sure. You know, Western culture often has a perspective that the land is ours for the taking. It's inert, it's not alive, and it is only here to serve us. And the indigenous perspective was very, very different. That's not to say that there weren't dynamics where indigenous people, you know, eradicated species or something like that. That certainly happened. But generally speaking, if you look at their relationship to the land, it was often much more one of being a part, being symbiotic with the land, and being just a small part of nature. In fact, somewhat tangential, but most indigenous cultures do not have a separate word for nature. They are just a part of that thing that we separate and call nature. Uh, and so that is kind of indicative of the way they viewed it as well. Not above—

Interesting.

Nature, just a part.

Yeah, I love that. That's great. Just because this is the thing that I've realized over the years is that so many people, they have this attitude of it's us versus nature. We have to dominate or subdue it. But that's not a symbiotic relationship. And we are part of nature. You know, we're part of that whole ecosystem. And so we have to live in harmony and figure out how to balance all of these things. And obviously, I think balance is one of the toughest things in life to do. And it seems to be a moving target at times, especially as we've made so many ecological and environmental changes. And, you know, whether that's deforestation or, you know, the destruction of different species and things like that. So trying to return some of that balance and rewild some of those places and species and things to a more natural state is obviously incredibly important.

Yeah, and you know, that's where the, the transformational work at the individual level, the men who participate in the sacred hunting experience, has to be related and is interrelated with transformation at a broader scale because the way in which we Collectively view the planet as an adversary we must conquer and overcome is also very frequently the way that we relate to ourselves, a certain habit within ourselves, a certain, uh, you know, aspect of ourselves that we, uh, hide or deny or repress or shame. And so you have very much a The microcosm reflects the macrocosm. And, and that's one of the things that gives me hope with this work is, you know, I might only be able to, to work with 6 to 9 men at any given time and give them this experience, but slowly they're, they're healing themselves. And in healing themselves, they're healing the planet.

Got it. Yeah, it's kind of like, who was it that said that all politics is local? And it seems like that's kind of a good way to think about it here is because if you want to make changes on a, on a big national or international level, you got to start small, whether that's creating your own compost bin and you recycling and not waiting for someone else to do it or some big company or corporation. It's just doing what you can where you're at.

Yeah. And there's, there's this kind of worldview in the materialist West Where we, for better or for worse, we really emphasize what we can touch and what we can— what we have a material sense and quantify. And there's so much value in what we've been able to create and do with that perspective, but it's also very limiting. And we don't really know what happens When we simply make an effort in a place of love towards nature or towards being good stewards of the environment and being in relationship to nature in a symbiotic way, even if just the intention is there. There's really interesting studies around how little kids or middle-aged adults They speak negatively to certain plants and they speak positive affirmations to other plants. And the plants that have positive affirmations grow well and vibrant. The ones that have negative speak towards them end up dying.

Interesting.

And this is nothing more than just the energetics of a human and the words that they're bringing to the plant. And so To say or to think that just because we can't measure what love directed to the planet actually yields doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And so that's just another way to think about it for someone who might be feeling like they can't have the resources or the time or whatever the case is to do something that's going to make some kind of an impact per se. Just practice loving.

It sounds like what you're talking about is an energetic intent, because if so, let's say, say you're speaking positively or negatively to someone or to something, some inanimate object, a rock, a blade of grass or whatever. They don't speak. They don't understand language. But potentially, there could be this energetic flow that we don't actually know based on the intent, your intention of how you're speaking or acting or doing And that's some type of energetic vibe that is getting passed on.

Yeah, totally. They, they don't understand language in the way that we do, but what you're describing is a way of understanding language and the subtext and all that kind of stuff that is unique to all of those different things, inanimate and animate. I mean, yeah, uh, it's not just plants, uh, The Lakota consider the rocks Inman. It's holy. They're holy. They're like, they're the ancestors. They're the wise ancestors that hold all the wisdom of the planet in Aboriginal texts as well, or Aboriginal stories. So do rocks have consciousness? They have rock consciousness.

It's a cool word, rock consciousness. But also tell me, what is What does one of these experiences look like? What would— how long does it last? And what is someone that would go— they would go with you on a hunt? Give me kind of a walkthrough of that.

Yeah, beginner hunts are the ones that I do most consistently. Men, particularly, who want to go from 0 to 1. They've never done it before. They have no idea how to do it. And they want to go from having no idea to eating the meat that they kill by the end of the weekend. And that is, I found, a relatively challenging experience for people to have if they have nowhere to start, if they grew up in a city and they're a little bit concerned about how it all works and, you know, the responsibility that a gun carries and things like that. And so what I do is I, I have an initial Uh, you know, call with people, see if they're really a good fit for the experience that I have, because I, I really require somebody to already be in a certain mindset. They can't just want to kill an animal. They already have to be of the mindset that they are utilizing this experience for their own growth as a human.

Mm-hmm.

And the practical skills are, are a great bonus, but not the core essence of what is, is driving me or them. Once that's established, they will receive basically a bunch of materials that allow them to not only learn the practical things that they need before they come on a hunt, but also start to really bring out the wildness that is within them. I have men go find what's called a sit spot, which is a spot in nature that they're particularly called to. And they'll do various tasks before we even have the experience. So they'll, they'll get a little gift that I send them and they'll have some, some, some things that I invite them to do outside in their spot, free from distractions, and just really start this connection to nature before they have this peak experience. And then the week before we have our event, we will all get on a Zoom call and we'll just connect a little bit, set some intentions with one another, allow the men to get a look at the other participants who are going to be there with them and connect with them a little bit. And then, then we have the event itself. And the event is Friday through Saturday. And on Friday, I'll leave out some of the surprises, but basically we have an opening circle that really sets the container. There's all different types of indigenous practices that I bring into that opening circle, but the intention is to create a really solid container where men feel like they're going into another world. And this is a world where they can do their work, so to speak, whatever that work might look like. And we then have a— I have a Navajo facilitator guide, hunting guide that is in most of the experiences. And he's a former Marine, so he will Uh, help the men who have perhaps never fired a gun before learn the basics and learn and get comfortable firing a weapon so that they can hunt successfully. And then we start moving into the hunt, and we have a hunt on, on a Friday evening, a Saturday morning, um, hopefully having some success where the men will learn how to butcher and clean and gut and skin, you know, the animals and, uh, prepare some of that food for later on so that we can eat. And then Saturday, right in the middle of the experience, we have a plant medicine ceremony, specifically psilocybin. And the intention is to really get perspective on what it is that we're doing there because Our ancestors would have known the gravity of hunting. They would have known, they would have had a deep connection to their, uh, to the land that was there. They would have had a deep connection to their responsibility to the land. And we come, myself included, from cities where we are often disconnected. We are, uh, on screens all day and it takes Some serious, uh, waking up or shaking to allow us to have a clear, uh, picture of what it is that we're doing on the hunt. And, and that's where the plant medicine comes in and provides a, a great opportunity for, for men to see, you know, this archetype of the hunter that they've started to embody on the hunt. It gives, uh, the men an opportunity to, uh, connect to the animal that they might have already killed or the one that they will kill in the future.

Uh-huh.

Uh, and then once we come out of ceremony, we obviously have some time for grounding and integration and things like that. And then we will have a couple more hunts, uh, And a closing circle on Sunday. So it's a very, uh, it's a very long, uh, experience for only being Friday through Sunday. Uh, the, the common joke is just how much happens in a single day.

Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. And you're typically hunting what animals?

It, it depends on the time of year, depends on, uh, many different factors. And we usually don't even know until a couple of weeks before we go out there. And the reason for that is most people who go out to hunt on the land, they come from a place of, I, human, want this, and I'm going to take that from the land.

Mm-hmm.

And I do my best to bring these men into relationship with the to the land where we are going in asking, what does the land need? And sometimes that means connecting with the landowners or stewards and understanding that this certain population is, is really high right now. And we should probably take out a few of that specific antelope species or that specific sheep species or deer or pig or whatever the case is. And so usually it's very much, uh, a mixed bag, and it, and it, it is something that we decide, uh, close to the time that we're hunting to just make sure we're in connection and communication with the land about what it needs.

Yeah. And where are these hunts taking place at?

Um, almost all the beginner hunts are out of Austin, Texas. And so, you know, people fly in from, at this point, all over the country, uh, to Austin, Texas, and We hunt, you know, a few hours outside of Austin in the Hill Country.

Gotcha. Okay. I've actually been on a hunt out in Wimberley before and a lot of fun, had a great time. The one thing I would push back on a little bit here when it comes to hunting, especially Texas is a different, different country, if you will, obviously a different state than a lot of places because they have so many exotic animals and like, like high wire fences and things like that. And so part of me as someone who has been a hunter for a very long time and respecting the land and the animals, And trying to hopefully help restore our ecosystem to its more natural environment of what— where species were originally located from. Texas is so diverse in the sense that there are so many different species that are non-native there. And so at times it can almost feel like you're shooting fish out of a barrel because there are so many animals in such a small location. I mean, Texas is obviously a very big state, high wire fences and all that. And it's very different than, say, If you are hunting whitetail on the East Coast and, you know, white and deer are roaming back and forth and, you know, you've got to learn their patterns and where they're, what time of day they're going to be, where they're feeding, you know, you're, so you're learning all that or on the West Coast, if you're hunting elk or mule deer or something like that, where it's just so much bigger and more expansive and a lot harder as well. So I'm curious your thoughts on that and how that plays into it because it's not like kind of that just Totally primitive natural state.

Yeah, I always say for men who come, you have to crawl before you walk. And many of them want to go straight into archery. And they want to go straight into the mountains. And there's a romantic relationship to doing that. And I totally understand that. I naively did that You know, as well. Um, but we, and almost all the men who come on the hunts, did not grow up learning how to hunt. And so they oftentimes— and I have people who have come on these experiences who have been hunting for 5 to 10 years in a row, and they're unsuccessful because it, it can be hard. And it can be hard, especially when you don't have to worry about shooting. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, But what I find is for the transformation and for the medicine that I'm trying to bring, there is something very, very valuable from seeing a live animal and the mannerisms and everything that it exudes as a creature that is very similar to us, putting the sights on that animal and then taking its life. By giving the the the beginner hunter more of an opportunity, which you know let's face it Texas is more of a controlled environment. So like you said, it provides more of an opportunity to be successful. It gives them such a powerful experience with so much neurochemistry, so much hormones, so much you've hunted, so you know what it's like, especially the first hunt. It is so. is so wedded to one's psyche when they do that, that there's a certain medicine around death, around killing, around one's own mortality and things like that, which is beyond the adventure benefits that come from a hunt in the West or something else, at least as far as the work that I'm trying to to facilitate, right? So, you know, an example I might give is people who are facilitators with breathwork, they will use different types of breathwork to create different types of experiences. And what I'm doing is using hunting as a tool. And so I'm using a different type of hunting as a tool to give these men that are beginners a specific type of transformation.

So this is almost like a type of therapy.

Yeah, I, I see it very much as a healing modality. It is incredibly healing to be a man and feel capable, uh, to feel capable of surviving out in nature, of being a participant in nature, of being in contact with some of these archetypes that we all have in us and oftentimes are just suppressed for some reason, you know, related to the way society views it.

Sure.

And so, yeah, I oftentimes say for a man to grow up and not know how to hunt, it's almost like having a child growing up and not teaching them how to speak a language. Like, you're robbing them of something That gives them confidence to be out in the world.

It's something really primitive, I think, that is in all of us, men especially, because it's going back to our biological roots and kind of our Paleolithic ancestors. That's how we lived. You know, we would not be here today if everyone was a vegetarian or a vegan. You know, like, we— nature eats nature. There's this circle of life where things eat other things, and that's all part of it. And we've done that for millennia. And so when I shot my first deer and, you know, I'd shot squirrels and things before, but when you're taking the life of an animal that is much larger, there's something different about that. And it was a powerful experience. It was like, whoa, I just killed this thing. And that's, you know, really, really powerful. Realizing that I'm going to eat it and being very cognizant of that and not just killing for the sake of killing because it was the first one that I ever shot was— I thought it was a doe. It was actually a little buttonbuck that I couldn't tell at all, but thought it was just a doe and just going for the meat and delicious meat, obviously. But yeah, I think that there is something very primal and innate in all men as far as being able to put meat on the table, being able to provide for their family. And as a society, I think we've lost a lot of that and have gotten out of touch with our food supply, where it comes from. You go to Kroger or Whole Foods or wherever and you buy your meat from the butcher, but we're out of touch. We don't see where that comes from. And so getting back to that and understanding it, I think, is very important here.

Yeah, I think that That direct connection, it really changes the way in which we relate to that thing. And that's something that's very interesting to me. You know, I, I would purchase meat from the grocery store before I started hunting, and I never really had much of a desire to share that with other people. I, it's the most expensive thing that you could buy at the store. Uh, you know, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna bring a snack or something to a potluck, very rarely is it going to be meat. But now that I hunt it myself and I have a story and I have a relationship to it and I have pride in it and I have, I have a desire to share it and it completely tran— it completely transcends all logic because hunted meat is usually some of the most expensive meat that there is.

Um, that's the running joke. I'm going to hunt because it's going to sell Right.

And some places that works and it's some, you know, sometimes that works. At this point, I've kind of gotten my life to do something along those lines. But the point is I have a completely different relationship to that meat and to sharing it and to the way that I relate with it than I did if I didn't have a connection to it. And that opens up all kinds of things because now you You're eating every single day.

We're all—

well, minus the few times where we're fasting, we're almost always eating. And when we're eating, we can have that as a meditation on the death of this animal, reflection of our own death, everything that had to go into that process. And it can really permeate a lot of things. And I use it as a practice.

Mm-hmm.

It is genuinely a practice and it becomes a daily one when I can.

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I totally agree. And there is something about sharing meat or food that you have procured yourself, that you have harvested, killed, and prepared for someone else. Yeah, it's a very, it's a very interesting thing. And I'm not really sure how to explain that or really wrap my head around why it's so different. But I guess it's probably about the story because it's, a lot more— we're more connected with it as opposed to, oh, I bought this at the store. No, I actually went out in the woods and took this animal myself and harvested it, butchered it, you know, prepared the meat and everything. So it just is a different level there.

Yeah, I mean, I think if you knock out the connection, you, you have some pretty drastic consequences. Look at any of the studies that they've done in in rats where you have this enriched environment where they have these little play wheels and all their friends and all that kind of stuff. And the rats are— they feel connected. They, they're, they're social creatures at some level. They feel like they have an enriched environment and everything's good. You take them out of that enriched environment, they will take so much cocaine that they die. They will take so much heroin that they die. They will take so much, you know, meth that they die because they've— you've removed connection in their lives and the replacement is not— is just solving a symptom, not the root. And I think that when you have a connection to your food, it solves some really significant underlying emotional and fulfillment and meaning issues.

What I hear you also saying is community and building community amongst men. And we have lost a lot of that as a society. And I don't know if it's because of the feminization of society or men constantly being told that, you know, toxic masculinity. And it's like this because, you know, we have lived in a patriarchal society for For many, many years. And, you know, there's abuses there. Not to say that that's all good or all bad. You know, like anything, there's pros and cons to both. But I think there's a pendulum in a lot of ways. And so it seems like we have swung too far trying to compensate for some of those abuses and things that should not happen or have happened in the past. But that comes with an effect. You know, there's a cause and effect relationship to everything. And men's mental health and sense of belonging and well-being, I think, has drastically suffered. So what I'm hearing you saying is that part of this is reconnecting with each other as men, as hunters, as providers, and getting back in touch with that primitive wild side that is innate in all of us, I think, but that we have lost touch with because of this modern urbanized society in which we live.

Yeah, I, I do think that the pendulum has swung a little bit far on one side, and I empathize and I understand with why that might be. And I think some, some aspects are misguided, and I think it's in many ways robbing, uh, boys and, and chill— you know, children and also young adults of some really important wisdom. But I think more than that it is a shift in our cultural priorities. Um, you know, it wasn't just peers that boys and men were learning from as far as masculinity was concerned. It was elders. And we have moved into a cultural dynamic where elders are not respected in the same way, not communally Yeah. Propagated as teachers in the same way. And that's, you know, a symptom, I believe, of a much larger issue, which is we just aren't as communal. We are, uh, we have since agriculture, we have, you know, focused a lot more on nuclear families in the instead of interconnected tribal ties and kinships and things like that. And that went a long way in hurting masculinity, in my belief. But it's still been able to stay strong up until the last 100 years or so because even with agriculture, we were still in a place where we were Very subservient to nature. We didn't have the technology until very recently where we could really bend technology to our will so rapidly and so drastically. And I think that within the past 100 years, uh, especially, we have really started to do that at such a scale that, uh, people are, you know, very individualistic.

Mm-hmm.

And we have Perfect example is how many times, myself included, do we cite Maslow's hierarchy of needs? All of Maslow's hierarchy is focusing on self, self, self. The top, self-actualization. There's almost no room within Maslow's hierarchy of needs for what about communal actualization? What about all of the things that we do as individuals that are meant to be in service to the whole or service to the collective. And ironically, Maslow identified those things before he died. He kind of saw the folly in being so I-oriented in his work. But I do think that there's a real shift away from the community and it's multifaceted. It's not one thing as any complex problem is. But it is Causing, I think, a lot of grief. And it's a challenge to navigate what a healthy version of community looks like in the modern world.

Yeah, that's a great point. And I'm not sure what the solution is there either, other than just doing things like what you're doing and like what we're doing as a company and trying to promote men, all people in general, but men especially to get into nature, into the outdoors, to spend more time with family and friends and disconnect with technology, with their devices and reconnect with nature and who we are as a people, as a species, and as friends, brothers, fathers.

Yeah, Charles Eisenstein has a great quote. It's basically, we have to believe in a more beautiful world in order to create it. And what I hope to do through the sacred hunting experiences where I take away people's phones, they don't have any internet access during that time, is I'm really hoping to create this beautiful world, a glimpse, even a small glimpse of what a beautiful world could look like when we're all in it together. We're all connected to nature. We're all prioritizing what historically has really mattered to our species.

Mm-hmm.

And they can go back into their homes and go back to their lives and it won't be that same relationship, but they know that it exists and they, they know that that beautiful world exists. And so they can create it in little ways, in any way that they can in their home. That's, that's part of the goal.

Yeah, no, that's great. Montel, tell me about the vision quests. How do those differ from the sacred hunting practices? And what does that entail?

Yeah, well, so I've, I've created a, it's called a sacred heart quest and it is A mix of, as with anything that I do, a mix of different practices and modalities. And it entails a 12-week program. So I work with people, we do group calls every week, we have different exercises, book excerpts, and things like that. And it's all culminating in wisdom that they are seeking from nature itself. And I have found one of the greatest teachers for me is nature. It provides me a connection to my intuition. It provides me insight into stillness in order to make decisions. It provides me when I Look to the, you know, a lot of the Native American symbology of animals and animal signs. It gives me direction in my life that's guided, uh, separate from my ego self or from other people. And so I try and create a similar experience for other men to be able to tap into the wisdom and the nature of nature. And so the experience itself is kind of a combination of a vision quest and a dieta. And a traditional, like, uh, South American dieta is basically developing a relationship with a certain plant and using that plant to bring forth certain messages. So for example, I've done a dieta with shirik sanango, which is a special plant It's a, it's a, it's kind of a psychoactive plant. It's, it's pretty strong. It can be pretty strong. It's a South American plant and it's considered to be a teacher plant. It, it just teaches and, and you do ayahuasca as part of the dieta and that's a master plant. So you have this teacher plant, which is shiriksanango or muca or whatever the case is. And then you have this master plant, which is ayahuasca. So what I've done is I've kind of, uh, created a combination. Obviously, we don't— I don't serve any ayahuasca during these experiences, but they go on a vision quest, many days, no food, uh, no—

they don't—

they're not allowed to have any water. They're not allowed to have any books. They're not allowed to have any journals. They're not allowed to have anything except basically a hammock. And they can sit outside the hammock or they can sit inside the hammock. Uh, but that's That's intense. Yeah, and it is intense. And, you know, we— I go around a few times and I basically serve them this tea. So, I brew this tea that is a plant called agarita. It's a native Texas plant and it's a plant that I've personally done dieta with. It doesn't have any historical lineage that I'm aware of. It's just something that I feel a kinship to, so I've created a dieta that I've I've done with it. And I emphasize that as part of the vision quest itself. So they get a little bit obviously of water when I give them the tea, but it is a little bit. And they're faced with all the challenges and the trials that come with what I explained. But the key for many indigenous practices is stripping down your physical body in order to elevate your spiritual body. So less food, less water, less stimulation. Everything is just like stripped away, stripped away, stripped away so that your spiritual relationship is more and more and more amplified. A long, long-standing version of this is like a monk or a priest who just, you know, They just renounce everything and they just go down a spiritual path.

Christ in the desert for 40 days.

Exactly. There you go. The mystic in nature is a very common myth amongst almost all of the different religions and spiritual practices. And so, I have created this version for men to have an experience that is Introducing them to what nature can provide in a somewhat harsh way. But we live in a, we live in a very padded and comfortable environment. And I think the harshness that comes with this is what many men want.

Oh, for sure. Tell me about some of the transformative experiences that you have seen, both from the sacred hunt and from these vision quests. As far as when someone has gone through it, what have they experienced? How has their life been transformed?

Yeah, so many different transformations. You know, I, as far as outcomes, I have people who, you know, shortly thereafter they quit their job and they seek something different for themselves. I've had people who get tattoos, you know, from themes and motifs. All those things are relatively gratifying as far as how much, you know, the experience has meant to them. But, you know, I think the most gratifying thing is The work is— it covers some really deep topics, you know. And so when you bring up death, you're going to bring up some stuff that's real heavy. You know, I've had people who have not processed the suicide of their closest friend for many, many years. And then they see an animal in its guts and they come into some connection with the friend's suicide and come to peace with it. I've had people who lost a daughter and they started to see their daughter come to him in birds while we were on the hunt. And he's crying in my arms, just integrating the loss of a loved one. And so There are so many examples and they're so deep and they're— I could, you know, go on and on about each person's connection. But yeah, there have definitely been some transformational experiences for people. And whether you're talking about relationships, intimate relationships, or death, Or food. It's all transformation.

Amazing. What has personally been the most transformative experience that you have ever experienced in nature or in the wild?

Well, I've had some pretty epic and challenging hunting experiences in the mountains of Idaho or Montana that have really stripped me down physically and got me to a place where I was very fragile emotionally and really opened up to a lot of growth that comes from being in fear, being exhausted, and things like that. I'll just— I have recency bias, so I'll just speak to a recent experience that I had that was pretty profound. I very much am guided by and allow myself to be led by the signs and the animals that are in my vicinity. And it's a very Native American way of approaching the world, and I find that it works really well for me. And I found that there was a connection to For me, with snakes coming up a lot in my life in the past month or so, snakes that were on this one property, and some people killed some venomous snakes, and I was opposed to that. And then I started to like step into a role of protecting them, and just all these different things that were coming up. And at the same time, What was coming up around my relationship with women was somehow tied together with the snakes. So I was, I was, I was realizing that in my relationship with women, I feel like very safe to have intimate relationships with women who are partners of my close friends because there's clear boundaries. And in those boundaries, I find a sense of safety, whereas with single women, I was, you know, I was just feeling like not trusting them. And I, I knew that I would, as I was coming into this awareness, that there was some connection between the snake energy and the, the, the, the relationship with women and my vulnerability. So I, you know, had some counsel with my spiritual teacher, and then I go on a hunt and I am almost sure that I'm going to see a rattlesnake. I've never seen one before, but I just call it in. I'm just like, uh, so sure that it's coming and I'm trying to prepare for it. What am I going to do, et cetera? I get guidance. I go on this hunt, I lead this hunt. And sure enough, I am about 3 feet away from a rattlesnake and it picks up its head. It looks at me. We have a moment. I take a step back and I let, and I let it go.

Cool.

Uh, off into the brush. And it was representative for me of, of a question: how do I handle vulnerability? Do I handle vulnerability with a snake much in the way that almost all Texans do, which is kill it on sight? It's a predator that makes me scared. It's not good. It has venom. Kill it. Or do I acknowledge it? Respect it, take a step back, and, and be just in relationship with it. Sit with the vulnerability and be okay in that. And that experience with the snake completely allowed me to unco— like unwind that unconscious lack of trust with women. And, you know, shortly thereafter, I just could feel myself relating with single women and dating completely different than I had before. And, you know, our, I think our mutual friend Keith Norris reflected to me, you know, Montsel, you have found a way that you don't need coaches and you don't need plant medicine and you don't need NLP and all these other techniques to rewire your subconscious mind. I am utilizing nature to help me do that and kind of shortcut that. So that's just one of the ways that I've I've found some really amazing growth from nature.

Yeah. Beautiful and amazing. And I think it's a rare person that can actually do that where they can, I mean, almost self-actualize within that space of being in nature and connecting there and taking something that deep and internalizing it. I think many people are looking for something a lot deeper and some much more transformative experience that really hits them over the head with a bat. As opposed to being something a little bit more subtle. And, you know, someone might take it as, oh, it just happened to be there, as opposed to, huh, energetically, maybe we've attracted this thing. There's these patterns that we're seeing in our life and how they're overlapping and making those connections there. I think it's just being more self-aware and conscious of our surroundings.

Yeah, subtle teachings that are always being given to us at all times.

Yeah, exactly. Mazel, a couple, couple other questions here. So as part of, you know, being in nature in the wild, you know, obviously we are a gear company and love talking about gear and equipment and all that fun stuff. What equipment do you always take with you or gear, either when you're leading a hunt or you're going out on your own, that, you know, gear equipment that you just consider essential?

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that is just essential to me as someone who desires to observe nature in its splendor is my binocular harness.

Ah.

Not only do I take that with binoculars in it, obviously, not only do I take that on all my hunting trips, so anywhere, anytime I go hunting, obviously I've got the harness and the binos because I'm trying to You know, find animals that the participants can hunt successfully. But even when I'm just going on certain hikes, I'll wear it because I can, you know, look up at the mountains or I can look at certain species in the distance. And it's such a beautiful thing to be able to almost reach out and touch an animal that doesn't even know I'm there because I have these Uh, optics. Uh, and so yeah, I, I love, I love the, the opportunity to observe nature. And so I love my, my binoculars, my Vortex Diamondback binoculars and Kuyu, uh, Kuyu harness if we're talking gear.

Yeah, yeah, cool. Um, I'm a big fan of Maven binos and FHF Gear harnesses. Got a bunch of their stuff and really like it. I recently watched the movie A Big Year with Luke Wilson, and I forget who else was in it, but these birdwatchers, and they are having what they— I guess, and I'm not a birdwatcher per se. I mean, I enjoy seeing birds here and there, but apparently these guys, they get really serious and they go and have what they call a big year where they're trying to identify as many different species of birds as possible in a single year and go all over the country, all over the world to do this. And so it was a pretty fascinating movie just seeing how competitive it got and trying to beat each other, um, at this, at identifying all these different birds, either seeing it through their binos or with the naked eye or hearing it, its song. Uh, really interesting, uh, movie. Watched it with my kids and stuff and they really liked it too. So, uh, when you say having with your binos and everything, it just made me think of that, which is, which is kind of cool.

Yeah. And, and I, I love that. Um, I'll, is it, Well, I'll, I'll ask you offline, but yeah, it sounds like right up my alley.

Yeah, it was really cool. It's called A Big Year, I believe is the name of it. Montse, what, what outdoor brands or gear companies do you really like or think that do just an amazing job of quality? Or they're maybe they're much more conscious in their outlook, whether that's on the environment or conservation or just, just their overall quality of equipment.

Yeah, I'll probably name some names that have already been named. I love Kuyu. I love their model of direct-to-consumer and not going through a bunch of middlemen. I love their founder and he's got both an amazing and tragic story. He was a pro football player. He founded Sitka and then he founded Kuyu afterwards and ended up committing suicide as a result of some of the CTE that, that he experienced. And but anyway, he, he was a great guy, and I, I didn't have a really close relationship to him, but I did have a relationship with him. And, uh, and their gear is just fantastic, and I'm always outfitted in it. And they definitely spare no expense, and they innovate as, as well as they can, you know. Um, they have been known to put, uh, perhaps superfluous underarm zipper vent in their shirts. But I do like the quality of their gear and I really like the ethos of the brand. And then the other one's Patagonia. I mean, Yvon Chouinard is such a really great leader in so many ways and the initiatives that he's taken to buy land and, and preserve wetlands in, in Chile, in, in Patagonia, uh, the, the amount of conservation work that they've done elsewhere, uh, you know, it's not perfect and there's a lot of things that Patagonia could do to, to, to get even better. But, um, there's, there's a lot of value in having such a big company that is still 100%. Yeah. And his ethos allows him to make decisions that are not financially motivated. And of course, there's benefits marketing-wise to not being financially motivated, but he doesn't have the same incentives that I think many other organizations do. And I really have a lot of admiration for him His book, Let Them Go Surfing, is fantastic.

And what's also interesting about him is Patagonia as a company is quite anti-hunting, but he actually— he's a hunter himself. I listened to a podcast with him and he was talking about how he enjoys bird hunting and even big game hunting here or there. So I thought that pretty interesting where as a company they kind of shy away from that, but personally he's in favor of it. So which is interesting.

Yeah, I mean, I think I think they're not. It's not lost on them the public view on hunting for better or for worse, and somewhat unfortunate. I got to give credit to to Yvonne for for you know being mindful of that with the business, but then also personally not hiding the fact that he is a hunter and he's he's an avid fly fisherman. I mean, he's like one of he's a really good tankara. Uh, fly fisherman, uh, Japanese old school.

I just bought one of those rods. I haven't even used it yet.

Yeah, it's, it's wild stuff. And he, he does a lot of like, he teaches the Crow Indians up on the reservation, uh, fly fishing in the Bighorn Mountains.

Cool.

And I have a close relationship to the Crow Indians, so I always find that connection to be sweet.

Yeah, that's great. Well, so what book or books have had the biggest impact on your life?

One of them would be The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. That's just in masculinity and men's work. I would also say there's a book my spiritual teacher wrote called Walking with Bears and he basically recounts his journey of connecting with his spiritual teacher, Bear Heart Williams.

Yeah.

It's a fantastic book. Um, there's also— yeah, Empire of the Summer Moon, uh, is another book specifically about Quanah Parker. That— this is Quanah Parker right here. You people might not be able to see, but in my— right in my video frame, I have a picture of him. He's the last Comanche chief, and it's just— it's a really inspiring and entertaining, more than anything, book about, you know, the Comanche Indians and, and, and how they fought against the Texans. Um, so those are, those are some of the big ones, and I'm sure there's some that I'm forgetting, but, but those are definitely some of the, you know, the big, big educational books I've had.

Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Do you have a favorite podcast?

I go through phases. Sometimes I don't really listen to podcasts, sometimes I do. Uh, if I had a favorite Podcast consistently. Um, well, that's not even true. I don't, I don't think I have an answer. I do really love Charles Eisenstein on YouTube though. He'll have little video clips that he does, uh, that are— they're not podcasts, but they're basically just him explaining a certain topic or something along those lines. And I have, uh, really enjoyed that. I love Charles Eisenstein and pretty much any podcast that he goes on, I will listen to. Cool.

That's great. Well, so this has been a lot of fun. Um, really enjoyed our conversation today. Uh, what is one piece of advice that you would give to the audience?

Hmm, I would say learn, and well, in some cases it would be unlearn the, the, the layers of burden that have made it hard to listen to oneself. And to really like feel at an intuitive level what is true for them and what is the next step for them, the best decision for them, etc. It's just trust yourself.

That's great advice. Thank you for that. Where can people learn more about you online and the work that you're doing, Mansell?

People can visit my website if they have any interest in sacred hunting, which we talked about, sacredhunting.com. And they can also find me on Instagram. As you know, I try to actually produce some pretty good content on there that's educational but also inspiring, etc. Um, and yeah, it's just my name, M-A-N-S-A-L-D-E-N-T-O-N, on Instagram. And those are the 2 best places.

Super. Thank you so much for your time today. Really enjoyed this conversation, and I think our audience is going to as well. And I'm looking forward to getting together and possibly doing a hunt together. I think there'll be a lot of fun and transformative experience as well.

Yeah. All right, brother. Well, I appreciate you having me on and, uh, asking good questions, and look forward to connecting either way.

Sounds good. Thanks, Russell.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.