Ep 23: Christian Fortson on Nature & Addiction Recovery

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild.

Welcome to the Adventure Made Podcast.

I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Christian Fortson. He is a firefighter, an EMT, and a wilderness guide in Montgomery County, Texas. Christian works with kids and adults to help them learn from nature and spend more time in the wilderness. And I'm really excited to dig in here with him and how he got into this and learn a little bit more. Christian, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Going pretty good. How about yourself? Good.

Glad to have you on the show today after a couple technical difficulties, but we're— we got it running now. Christian, just to start, give me a little bit of background about yourself. You know, who you are, what you do, how you got into everything that you're doing, especially regarding, you know, kind of the wilderness background and all of that.

Well, it started, I was 18 and I'd just gotten out of high school and I ended up doing a little bit of time in jail. And, that was towards the end of my drug addiction and alcoholism. And my mom brought me to this group, and they worked a whole lot with like the outdoors and stuff like that, going backpacking. And that kind of intrigued me because I've always been athletic and interested in being outdoors. And so I was really sold on that part. I wasn't sold on like the whole being sober part. I thought I was like whatever. Like I don't really have a problem yet. Like I still got my whole life ahead of me. I can slow down. Yada yada yada. But then fast forward. I don't know, going through this program and just being outdoors, like with other people in sobriety and just hearing their stories, it kind of just clicked in me one day that like I did have a problem and there was a solution and it was like outside of me. And then fast forward like more into the future, and I'm skipping over a lot of broad sections because I could talk about this all day.

We'll dig into them.

But to why It became such a big deal for me to find a job where I could help other people, was because it really fulfilled a purpose, like, within myself. Like, I've worked a whole lot of jobs, worked a lot of warehouses, and I would leave every single day just, like, not really feeling any type of fulfillment in life. It was just, like, clocking in and clocking out. Whereas when I was working as a wilderness guide, like, it wouldn't even feel like work most of the time. Don't get me wrong, some days I'm out there and I was hauling a 70-pound pack on my back. It sucked and it wasn't fun. Like some days whenever we're out working as firefighters, like putting out fires or saving people in the middle of the night, like it's not always fun to wake up and help those people. But at the end of the day, it fulfills me and it makes me feel like I have a better purpose in the world.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'd love to dig into your story a little bit more as far as how you ended up in jail and what led to addiction and all of that. We like to get vulnerable here.

Okay.

If you're okay with that.

So let's see, let's start. What led to jail? Uh, that started off with me breaking into one of my friend's houses, uh, over winter break because he told me I could go into his backyard and smoke some weed. And I figured there was no big deal because I was like, well, we're good friends, like nothing bad will come of this. Uh, but I saw his window was unlocked, so I just pushed it open And went inside and basically just lived there for two weeks and threw some parties. And nobody helped me clean up the mess that was inside. So when they got back, they called the cops and I was arrested. And I was on probation for a year, and that was my senior year of high school. And I remember before I signed up for probation, my lawyer asked me, "He was like, 'Hey, do you think you can really stay sober for a year?' And that was the first time anybody asked me about staying sober, and I was like." I mean, at the moment I didn't think twice about it. I was like, whatever, dude. Like, you don't know anything. And so I was like, yeah, I can do probation. Uh, and I messed up on probation a whole lot. I failed a lot of drug tests and spent a lot of weekends in jail. Uh, but the long stint in jail came from me trying to falsify a drug test on probation.

Hmm.

So I got another charge. And then I remember that was the time in jail I spent, I think about 4 months in. I was reading the whole book, like I was reading the Bible a whole bunch, and I had this weird spiritual experience almost, uh, because I couldn't stop thinking about smoking weed and drinking. And, uh, this guy gave me this book about repenting from your sins, and so I said this prayer in the book, and then all of a sudden I got goosebumps all over my body.

Hmm.

And like the thoughts just went away, and I was like, holy fuck. God is real. Like, there really is something out there.

Yeah.

And I got out of jail a couple weeks later and I went right back to doing drugs again.

So it didn't totally stick?

No, not that time. It did not.

Okay.

And what was the next part of the question?

Well, I want to dig into that a little bit more. What I've seen a lot over the years is people that have some type of addiction is they're looking for something or running from something. And, you know, everyone is different as far as the case and, you know, what they're addicted to. And I think everyone has the propensity for some type of addiction and what they fall into. Would you say that's the case with you in the sense that you were looking or running or something like that?

I think in the case for myself, a lot of the times, because I mean, it's not just drugs and alcohol, it's easy to get addicted to anything.

Sure.

That's stimulating. At the end of the day, I think With me, it's what am I, what am I not finding within myself? Like, what am I not creating? Like, am I not going out of my way to be there for other people? Am I not like doing just the normal daily things I need to do to make myself happy? Uh, and that stuff really is kind of just what leads more so into addiction, is not doing those everyday things.

Yeah.

Because whenever I'm constantly thinking about myself That's like the most dangerous thing for myself.

And so basically just getting into those mental thought patterns of selfishness, for lack of a better term, and just thinking about, you know, yourself as opposed to external things and focusing on others or serving in some capacity.

Yes.

Got it. And so then from, from that origin story and, you know, suffering through some hard times and making some mistakes, What led to the turnaround and, you know, getting sober and cleaned up and improving your life from there?

The turnaround began— I have to give like 100% of the credit to my mom for kicking me out of the house multiple times.

Tough love.

And I would say my rock bottom, where it really hit me, was I had been living in my car for about 3 months and I came home one day. And my mom met me at the front door and she was like, what are you doing here? And I was like, oh, I'm just coming to take a shower, you know, clean up. And she's like, you haven't lived here for 3 months. And I just looked at her and I was confused. I was like, what do you mean I haven't lived here for 3 months? She's like, I don't know where you've been. Like, I don't know what you're like, where you've been, what you've been doing, who you've been with, like nothing. And, uh, I was just kind of shocked. I was like, Like, what have I been doing for the last 3 months? And at that moment, I asked her for help and to take me to a rehab because she's a loving and caring mother. She said yes. I remember I went back to my car like literally 5 minutes after that, and, uh, I went to go smoke again. And as soon as I took a hit, I had this thought and it was like, you can't stop even if you want to. They're like, look at that. You're like, you just asked for help and you're already back in your car getting high again. And I was like, that was terrifying because I always told myself as a kid, like, oh, I can slow down when I'm older, when I want to. Uh, but that was a big turning point. And so I went to rehab for 19 days, learned a whole bunch of stuff. Uh, still thought I could smoke weed normally, of course, like most drug addicts and alcoholics think they can. Uh, And I learned again through another experience like that that I just can't. Yep.

Gotcha. And so then from there, after going to rehab and, you know, getting cleaned up, how did that lead into your wilderness experience and realizing that that's something that you wanted to do more of and help others?

Like I said earlier, that kind of started with joining this What was it called? An at-risk program, like for youth. Uh, I joined that because it was really hard getting sober at 19. Uh, yeah, because I've been to AA meetings, I still go to them, but at first it's just a lot of old people. And going in there being 19, it's easy to be like, I'm not like y'all, like y'all have nothing left or nothing that I want. Um, and so Definitely being around a bunch of young people was what helped start it. And, uh, with the wilderness side of it, there was a program called Adventure Learning Program, and that's what I ended up working with. And, but there's a— the lead guy of it was Scott Shoemate, and he was just a super down-to-earth guy, uh, who was always willing to like share his experience with you and like teach you new things.

Hmm.

And it was really him as a person who led me to like wanna be more involved in like the outdoors and like sharing that knowledge with other people. Cuz it wasn't just about like the ego being like, oh, I go outdoors and I hike and I backpack and I hunt and stuff. Like that just kind of like puts me off. Like when people like just try to like be the best at something.

Yeah.

When he was like really good at it, but he wasn't like boasting about it. He's like, oh, I wanna share this with you so you can also go share with other people.

Yeah, no, that's a great point. And just taking an attitude of humility as opposed to, I'm the expert and learn from me.

Yeah.

And be more, more curious and helpful in that regard. And where, Christian, where was this program located at?

They're located out of Houston. Unfortunately, that program doesn't exist anymore. My old boss has passed away. Yeah.

Gotcha. That's unfortunate. So then you've, you've done a decent amount yourself of leading teens and those that are at risk for substance abuse into the wilderness as well, right?

Yes, sir.

Tell, tell me a little bit more about that. Let's, let's dig in there a bit as far as like the type of experiences that you lead, how long those last, the activities, that sort of thing.

So our typical backpacking trip would last 21 days.

21 days? Wow.

And we would drive up there in a van for the first day and then spend a couple days at base camp getting everybody used to the elevation and stuff.

And where was this taking place at?

We would go to Colorado. We'd go to the San Juans a whole lot. We'd go to Utah and the Hayawentas.

Oh yeah, I spent some time there.

And those are the 2 main— but we'd set up a base camp and we'd do a whole bunch of ropes. activities, which are just team building exercises. Those definitely seem to be the most beneficial, just in the sense of like really getting people's defects like right out in front of you. Just like see like what's going on with them before they even get out there.

Interesting.

Because these exercises, like you want to work as a team, but at the same time you think you know better than everybody else. And that just, it comes up just like that because you're like, I want to succeed. These people aren't doing what I want them to do.

And so, there's a lot of trust that has to be built into that as well, I'm assuming.

And these kids were all in a program and we've been training them for 3 months leading up to this. So, with the backpacking, we would go 7 days out into the wilderness, usually backpack just about 30 miles or so.

Okay.

Because we would build up like every single day, we'd take an hour out of the day for them to go off. and be alone for an hour to do a— like, it was called a mini solo, but they're just building up for the second week, which is where I think the real breakthroughs come from, uh, is they would go out and do a 24-hour fast and solo by themselves in the wilderness. I know for me, if it was taken seriously, there's just so much benefit to it because I finally realized for the first time in my life whenever I did it that I was uncomfortable being by myself because I always thought like, oh, I'm alone, or like, I can hang with it. But being alone with your thoughts with nothing to distract you is like a different feeling. For the first time, you're like, oh, this is bad. Uh, and I got to see like, yeah, just how I don't like how I treat people all the time. That was like the biggest breakthrough I had the first time.

Yeah.

I was like, you know what, I'm kind of rude to people a lot of the time. It's super easy for me to be like, oh, well, I'm just being funny. It turns out I'm just being an asshole.

Sure. Probably a lot of built-in mechanisms there as far as the self-protection, self-preservation, and, you know, trying to protect the ego, really.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was very easy for that. I think a lot of the other stuff that we would do out there was just constantly just Being honest and like getting real with these kids, like while we're hiking on the trail or making dinner around the campfire and just getting them uncomfortable because it's not comfortable being out in the wilderness for your first time.

No.

Like it's a strange experience.

Yeah.

I remember my first time we were going on a bike trip. This is when I was a client. And I was like, well, what was the $500 for? Like, are we staying in a hotel or something? And Scott looked at me and he laughed. He's like, why would we be staying in a hotel? This is like an outdoor trip. And I was like, oh, okay. We get there and he's like, you're going to help set up tents. And I was like, man, I haven't set up a tent since I was like 10 years old.

Definitely a learning experience then, eh?

Yeah, very much so.

Yeah, that's fascinating. And so, you know, I think there's something really significant with the 21 days. Because it's from, from what I've studied is that it takes 21 days to break a habit and to form a new one. So it sounds like there's something really significant about going out there for that long, getting away from technology, you know, bad influences, everything, and trying to retrain the mind and how to think and perceive things and getting comfortable with being uncomfortable for that length of time.

Yeah, I know it was a— it's definitely a big deal being out there for 21 days for these guys. Even for myself, even when I worked there, I was like, I was looking forward to it more than they were. I was like, man, I can't wait to just like get out there and reconnect and like find like what's new and like going on in my life that I haven't like taken a look at yet. Uh, it's definitely a struggle coming back to, so to speak, reality of the everyday life, 'cause it's easy to get sucked into it. And we used to call it, we're gonna go back into the matrix of the everyday life. 'Cause it's like you just wake up and you check your phone and you're on your phone all day and you're doing this and doing that and you're just not taking very much time for yourself. So I feel like, what is— what do I need to feel complete or what do I need to check?

So it sounds like what you're talking about here is like a reintegration process back into the quote unquote real world, which, I mean, it could be argued that it's really not the real world because we're surrounded by digital devices all day long. And that's one of the things that we're focusing on with Rewild Gear is to encourage people to spend more time in the great outdoors and disconnect from all of those all those external stimuli that are constantly vying for our attention just so we can reconnect with nature, with family, with friends, and be better people all around.

Yeah, I think that's a great purpose and a mission for a company. I 100% support that. And I just don't know, it's just— it's difficult nowadays to get anybody to want to go and do stuff outdoors a lot of the time. And it's weird. I just don't get it. Like, I'll hit up my friends and stuff, and there's certain friends that are totally down to go bike ride and do stuff. And there's other friends like, oh, I'd rather hang out inside and do this. And I'm like, yeah, I know we live in Texas and it's hot, but—

Yeah. Well, and I think we've, as a society, we've gotten soft. You know, we live in this microwave society where we want convenience right now. We want food right now. We want pleasure right now. We want everything right now. But it's Being in nature, in the outdoors, it, it's all about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable to an extent, uh, and getting back to our tribal, primitive, kind of Aboriginal roots really, where we were more connected to nature, the wilderness, animals, flora, fauna, all of that, wouldn't you say?

Yeah, I think it's— we've definitely changed a lot as a society. And there's just not as much time spent outdoors just because everything has been built around— I don't think it's a terrible thing, but it's been built around like living in a house and living near a city and having a job and doing all this stuff. Like, don't get me wrong, would it be awesome to be able to live off the land again and like just live out there all the time? Yeah, 100%. But it's just, it's not realistic. So I think enjoying the small time that we do get to spend out there is the best option that we have.

Yeah, totally agree. And so, what results have you seen from working with these at-risk teenagers and young adults and maybe even younger after having gone through one of these 21-day experiences where they come back to the real world? And, how has that affected their life long-term?

Well, I've still stayed in contact with a few of the kids. And, don't get me wrong, they forget a whole bunch of the stuff that they learn out there and so do I. I'm human and we make mistakes. But I think a lot of the time, from what I've seen, they look back at it and they look at some of the stuff that they've learned and that they've learned about themselves more specifically. And they're like, you know what, I can go back and I can like fix like what's going on in my life because I've learned about it in the prior.

Mm-hmm.

And also a lot of those kids, they just seem more confident in life once they come out of it. Like a lot of the kids go in there like low self-esteem, like doubting their abilities, and then we teach them Like live in the outdoors.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Christian, why do you think that being in nature and kind of that more primitive environment has such a positive effect as opposed to like a retreat center or somewhere that's in a conference room where you're just kind of kept away from, from all those external stimuli? Is there something about being in nature that has such an effect on people?

I think the thing about being in nature is it's uncomfortable, and I've never heard of anybody growing in a comfortable state, uh, because I mean, it's just that I don't understand why you can't grow in a comfortable state. It's like, I'm not gonna get any better at working out if I don't push myself in the gym, or I'm not gonna be any more successful in my job if I don't get uncomfortable and push myself for that position. And that just goes the same with being a better person and all that stuff. Like, you're not going to grow unless you get uncomfortable.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great point. So when you first went out there and, you know, your own, you know, personal experience, how did being in nature affect you personally? What, what was it about that that really spoke to you at the time other than just being alone?

What really spoke to me? Well, the first time I was out there, I was with one of my best friends and, well, first of all, that just built our relationship a whole bunch.

Yeah.

I remember that the first day we were doing our ropes course activities and I was having a tough, tough time wanting to be the best and trying to control other people. especially one of our teammates on the group who was really slow and out of shape. It was really bothering me. And I think it was the aspect of everybody being there for each other and some of the other people like coming up to me and being like, hey man, like, it's okay. Uh, like, we're gonna make it through this like together. And just like the team and the family like vibe of it all really brought me into it. And just the peace of mind The cringe of being outdoors all the time was a big thing that sold me.

Yeah. And so how has that outlook changed your life as far as how you interact with the natural environment, whether that's with, based on like a sustainability concept or conservation or just your understanding of nature and the outdoors?

Well, I don't have a whole lot of opinions about conservation just because I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about it.

Sure.

We always practiced the principle of leaving no trace behind. Take only photos and leave only footprints. That's what I was always taught. And so, I think that's just a good starting point for anybody is when you go outdoors, don't leave your trash out there. And that, I learned that in the program and it changed my life even so whenever I came back home that I stopped littering when I'm in like the city. So now, I'll just let trash collect in my car and then throw it out when I get home.

So I want to dig into that a little bit. So it sounds like— so before you would just throw trash just on the street or wherever, right?

Mm-hmm.

Where— so, and I'm fascinated by this concept because I've had a lot of conversations with people, some who you would never expect that's their mindset, and others that they think about everything like, where's it going to go? What's the long-term effect? And things like that. So mindset-wise, where was your head at? Were you just thinking like about the here and now, just be like, okay, I don't need this paper anymore, so I'm just going to toss it out the window or something? Where was your head at?

You know, my head wasn't really all there back then. I was just like, well, this is trash and trash doesn't belong in my car. So it would go out the window.

Gotcha. So there was really no long-term thought process at all. It was just like the immediate here and now. I don't want this, I don't need it. So boom, that's it.

Yeah, I was just being a ignorant teenager.

Yeah.

Not really thinking about the long-term consequences of littering.

So I'd like to dig into that a little bit more moving forward. How can we better educate people, teenagers, you know, kids, adults, so that they think more long-term and not just in the short term? I don't want this. I'm just going to toss it out here. What, what would have affected you in that regard so that, so that you would think longer term as opposed to just short term?

You know, I think it's difficult to inform people to change their mind. I do think it's possible. And I'm not sure what you can do. I know within myself and some of my close friends that if you don't see something as objectionable, you're never going to change it. And until you realize that within yourself, that it's just not going to change. So there's nothing like— I don't think there's anything that anybody could have told me when I was a teenager to be like, hey, stop littering, it's going to kill the environment. I've been like, okay, whatever, bro.

Gotcha. Yeah, I mean, during, during the teenage years, obviously we get really hardheaded and think we know everything. And the older we get, the more we realize how little we know and how much more there is to learn. So that's definitely a growth process, I think. Christian, so you've spent a good deal of time in the wilderness and the outdoors, both leading, both being on some of these experiences yourself and then leading others. Outside of that, though, what are some of your favorite activities to do? Just in nature, out in the woods?

Well, I'm a big fan of mountain biking. Honestly, I prefer it over backpacking because you get to go fast.

Yeah.

I like to go swimming and fishing a little bit. I'm not a great fisherman, if I'm gonna be honest. It's more about just spending time in nature. It's easy for my wife to do as well.

Yeah.

And other hobbies, just be— I mean, I love to work out. I don't like to work out outside, if I'm gonna be honest, because we live in Houston, Texas, and it's hot. Yeah.

No, that makes sense. And okay, so when you are leading a wilderness excursion, what equipment do you guys always bring? What do you consider essential?

Well, for us, I'm gonna have to think back on all this stuff. We bring a lot of shit, but we obviously have a first aid kit. We have a sat phone. Towards the end, we got the Garmin inReach so we could contact base camp. Uh, I think that's pretty useful for people nowadays because most people have their phones on them.

Yeah.

And we would have a whole bunch of iodine for treating our water. Uh, I think iodine water actually tastes better than normal water. But we take all of our food out for that week. We have 2 stove burners. Everybody needs a sleeping bag. We have the tents, ground tarps, and the mats. And trying to think of what else. We usually take 75 foot of rope just in case we need it to cross a river. Pots, pans, everybody brings a cup and a bowl and a spoon.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's the good majority of it. And obviously, you know, clothing and your gear.

Sure. So you guys are pretty weighed down. You had a lot of gear.

We would make the kids carry most of it.

Yeah. How much food would you take and what kind of food were you bringing? Dehydrated meals?

We would bring— oh, we'd bring a big— a couple of big sticks of sausage, beef jerky, cheese, oatmeal, grits. Dehydrated beans, dehydrated mashed potatoes. Our favorite meal was veggie chili. It gave you the nastiest fart.

I'll bet.

And that was always a great time during the nighttime meetings that we would have.

For sure. Is there one outdoor experience that really stands out to you as far as it was just like so memorable and either life-changing or it just really impacted you in such a massive way?

The most impactful one.

Either on your life or maybe that you saw impact someone else's, which in turn impacted yours.

Yeah, I'm just trying to think of how to word it. It was during this leadership course that I was doing to get into the position of working there as an employee. And my old boss got He pulled me aside one day and he was like, hey, I'm going to fire you from the leadership course for a couple of weeks and you're going to have to earn your way back on. And I was just shocked. I was like, why? What's the problem? He's like, you're not doing this for other people, you're doing it for yourself. It's all about you. And he's like, I can tell by the way you treat people, by the way you talk. And he's like, just leave, show up. And that really, I don't know, at first I was super disappointed and pretty pissed off. Because like, who was he to tell me that? And, uh, later on I looked at it and I was like, you know what, like, I really have been just using these people to get into a position that I want to be into.

Wow.

And so I took a step back and I really went out of my way to be there for other people and to not look for anything in return. So I wasn't going to help you to try and lift myself up. I was just going to you just because I had general concern. And wanted to help. Wow.

So that made a big difference then?

Mm-hmm.

Got it. Christian, is there a book or books that have really impacted your life over the years?

There is the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. That's a big one for me. I don't know if you've ever read it.

No.

And I mean, it's a It explained stuff to me that I never thought anybody else had ever experienced before. And it's definitely for a certain group of people, being alcoholics, but it was just written in a way of like, man, I thought I was like the only person who drank like that. I didn't think there was anybody else who would relate to me. And it just made it easier to come to the conclusion that I am an alcoholic and I needed help.

Got it. Let me ask you about that a little bit. And this might get it even a little more personal. When I think about Alcoholics Anonymous and just the way it's positioned and everything, it seems like what it's telling people is there's something wrong with you. You have a quote-unquote disease, or, you know, this is how you're always going to be. However, I don't believe that that's actually the case. I think that people can change. And because If you're telling yourself, I'm an alcoholic, I'm always going to be an alcoholic, and I can never have a drink again or never have a substance again of any kind because I'm once an addict, always an addict. To me, that's telling the mind that you can't change or improve. And I'd like to get your thoughts on that because I've seen people who were definitely very much addicted, but then they've worked through that, whether that's past trauma, whether that's dealing with the addiction or something. And so then They can have a drink now and then and it doesn't lead to 20, you know? So I'd like to get your take on it just, just to hear.

Well, my take is alcoholics anonymous. They don't tell anybody if you're an alcoholic or not. That's something you have to decide on your own. And sure, I 100% do believe it's a disease. There's research on it nowadays and I learned about it like 4 years ago and it was actually really interesting. So the alcoholic mind actually works differently than the normal mind, and it processes and breaks down alcohol differently. And that's what leads to wanting another drink.

Sure.

Whereas, like, I remember drinking with my mom and my dad, like, they would have 2 or 3 beers and they'd be like, oh, like, I feel tipsy, I better stop. And I was like, in my head, I'm like, that, that's no fun. Like, why are you only gonna have 3 drinks? Like, where's the fun in that? And, that's the part where people say like, oh, you have a disease, where it's really like an allergy. I don't react the same to other people when it comes to drinking and using because I have the thought that keeps on— well, it's not really a thought, it's more of just my gut in my mind and my body telling me like, give me another drink, we need it.

So, with neurofeedback and different brain training and also improving health-wise with the gut because all disease starts In the gut typically, then I've also seen where that can be changed or improved because you're changing that thought pattern, that thought process. And so that won't stay the same because the brain is elastic, you know, with neuroplasticity, it can help increase and expand. And I've done some of the different brain training myself, and you can see examples of that, of how it's grown and changed. And so it seems like a lot of the science coming out is showing that, you know, just how we're wired That's not how we always have to be. Because so many of those things that how we think or relate to whether that's a substance or a person or something, it takes a lot of digging in and a lot of, a lot of internal work and everything where it can change. And I'm really fascinated by all of that. And I don't— there's no one-size-fits-all, obviously, because everyone is so vastly different and our experiences are different and all that. But yeah, but I think it's a really interesting field of study right now.

Yeah, the brain's a crazy thing.

It really is.

I'll never fully understand it, but I remember reading something, uh, and it wasn't necessarily just about alcoholism, but our brain would remember and recall things that made us feel good in life. And whenever we were going through a hard time, it would bring that back to the forefront and be like, hey, do this.

Yeah, it's almost like you're recreating a dopamine hit.

In a sense.

So, you know, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of talk about like psychedelics and how those can positively affect people. And I've seen there's so many studies coming out as far as like MDMA therapy and ketamine therapy and psilocybin therapy and all these different ones and how they're working with addiction and PTSD and trauma and things like that. But one of the things that's also coming up a lot is breathwork, where there's a type of breathwork called holotropic breathing, where it gets you in that kind of psychedelic state and it totally changes the way you're thinking and the way your brain is acting and things like that. And that's Completely substance-free. It's all just changing the breath, and because breath is something that everybody has and we have to do in order to stay alive. So I find that pretty fascinating too.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds pretty hip. I'd be down to do that. I know just doing your regular everyday sigh is just your body's way of trying to restart itself. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly. Christian, do you have a favorite podcast you listen to?

I used to listen to Joe Rogan. I haven't listened to it as much recently, but—

Yeah, yeah, he's been— he's a beast when it comes to the podcast world, just recording one every day and live. It's, yeah, different animal.

He's, uh, yeah, interesting guy.

Yeah, for sure. Well, this has been a lot of fun. Um, what's one closing piece of advice you would give to our audience?

I would say get outdoors more and just spend time with people. Because there's a— I just thought about it. There's this other book that I read once called Tuesdays with Morrie, and it talks about how you never know when it's going to be your last day. So, treat every day like it might be and just tell people that you love them, you care about them, that you appreciate them.

Yeah. And what's the name of that book again?

Tuesdays with Morrie.

I've heard of it. Okay. I haven't read it. No, that's a good one. We'll definitely link to that in the show notes. And if someone wants to learn more about the wilderness work that you're doing, is there a website that they can go to to check it out?

They could try adventurelearningprogram.com. I don't know if it still works or not because that was the old website.

Okay, super. Well, we'll pull that up and link to it as well. So, Christian, thanks so much for being on the show today. Really appreciate your time.

All right, thanks for having me.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You could check out the show notes For today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.