Ep 5: Knife Design with Jason Tietz

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild.

Okay.

Hey, welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Spears, founder of Rewild Gear, and I'm here today with Jason Teets, industrial designer and specifically a knife designer. He is the, the designer behind our upcoming Gasper 4 knife, and I'm super excited to have him here on the podcast today. So Jason, let's hop in here.

Yeah, how's it going, Seth? What do you do?

Tell me about yourself. Yeah.

Well, Yeah, exactly. I'm, I'm Jason Teets. Like, like you said, I'm the product designer that you got working on this. Besides that, my background, like you said, industrial designer, graduated from Kendall, which is an art college here in West Michigan, with an industrial design background and degree and passion for knives, for sharp objects.

if you will.

So yeah, anything and everything sharp, right?

Everything and everything sharp. I like that. Why knives?

Why knives? Well, that's a good question. Mainly because it's what I'm drawn to. And I'm drawn to it because more specifically, because I was drawn to outdoors, right? Kind of like your Rewild that you, that you're working on right now, which is really awesome. It's kind of that you know, reinvigorate, re-find yourself, so to speak. I kind of grew up in that and then got away from it for quite a while, moved to the city type of thing. And I was like, you know what I'm missing in my life? This is what I'm missing in my life is the outdoors, the nature. And when I got back into that, I found that there were a few things within that that I really enjoyed. And one of them was— Knives. You know, it's like, it's the number one tool, right, for everything outdoors, or in my opinion.

Right.

That like the outdoors. Exactly. So I just naturally was drawn to that with my background as an industrial designer. My love for the outdoors. Knives just have something about them. You know, it's kind of like, it's an art piece. At the end of the day, there's curves, lines, everything that a designer is drawn to. So I think it just kind of fits, fits what I do and what I'm drawn to. You know, the outdoors and design come together.

How did you get into industrial design? Where did that— what awakened that spark in you where you wanted to go deep on something? It's kind of like a technical, a technical type of career.

It is. Yeah. Well, I actually went into furniture design, believe it or not, to, to start out. So I was in high school, not exactly sure what I was going to do. Kind of had the whole, well, I'm just gonna go into the military. Had already been talking with some Marine recruiters. And then randomly, actually, and completely unbeknownst to me, we had a— what do you call them? Like a teacher's aide or like a student teacher from Kendall.

Mm-hmm.

And she completely put together a portfolio for me with my own works over the years that I was just doing nothing with and submitted it to Kendall, just essentially not to go there to get a degree or anything like that, but just like a student art competition type of thing. And I got a scholarship and was accepted into their dual enrollment program. So I got the letter and they were like, hey, this is what you're doing now. And I was kind of like, Well, that seems fun. Why not try it out? So yeah, it just— I just kind of followed, followed that course, and I was dual enrolled in high school. And the nice thing about a dual enrollment program is you just essentially sign up for classes the next year. Once you're accepted into that, you're accepted into the college, or at least that's how, how they worked it. So I just signed up for college the next year. And started going to Kendall. Honestly, I didn't think I'd be going to, you know, your normal college. I thought for sure I was going into the military. I'm not exactly a math guy. Let's put it that way. So funny thing, I was in furniture design, like I mentioned, and the industrial design program is on the same floor in that building. And I was like, man, I'm so sick and tired of drawing squares. Uh, and those kids over there are doing some really cool stuff. So I transferred the next semester and, you know, it's all, it's all downhill from there.

Or uphill as the case may be.

Yeah.

Got it. Cool. And then, so what was, what was one of the first projects that you designed that really going, going into industrial design? I'm sure there was, you had like some basic projects in school, but what was the first one that you got into? You're like, man, this is really cool. I see myself doing this for a long time to come.

Yeah. Well, actually my first project that, you know, really got me hooked was a backpack, but it wasn't what I would call an outdoor backpack or what I'm into today. It was the equivalent of a snowboarding backpack because that's what I was really into at the time was snowboarding. You know, they were all over my room and, and I was like, you know, poor college student. So I'm like, okay, perfect project. I'm going to invent a backpack that not only can carry your snowboard around, but you can also use as a roof rack on your car. So I had these things that pulled off of it and attached to the gutters on your car. and this cable system. And it was pretty cool. And I really went down a rabbit hole with that. And then actually, the semester after that, they were like, okay, this, this year, you get to kind of pick your own project and do whatever you want. And so I picked a knife. And that was— I look back at it now. And it's actually pretty embarrassing. It was— oh man, I would— it's the equivalent of like the, you know, it does 50,000 things really terribly. It wasn't necessarily a good knife. It had like a removable— it was a kitchen knife. It had a removable potato peeler and like, man, all these stupid things that now I look back and it's like, wow, I could have just designed, you know, a good knife that worked well and I probably would have been fine. But oh well.

So would you say that your design process has simplified since that first initial one?

Oh, very. I mean, time and time again, I've just continued to hone, you know, and I think one of the hardest things to do actually in the design world is to hold yourself back. It's to keep things simple. It's to keep lines flowing and crisp and sharp. And, you know, a lot of times at the end of the day, you look at it and yeah, it's dynamic and fun to look at. It's cool materials. But if it's simple, And the lines are smooth and everything's flowing together, it almost looks at first you're like, oh, well, that's easy. It's boring. It's like, well, no, you'd be surprised at how much extra work you have to do to make things more simple, even though it sounds totally contradictory.

Got it. Yeah, so definitely a less is more approach then.

100%. Less is more. It just makes things timeless. And I think that's really what good design is at the end of the day. It's things that you can pick up 20, 30 years from now or give, give to your kids or grandkids and it still looks good and it's still going to be, you know, with them and it just totally hasn't fallen victim to time.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And that's really one of the things that we're trying to do with Rewild Gear with all of the equipment that we're designing and, and making and going to be selling very soon is try to get to the bare essence of all of those, those pieces of gear and equipment that we need to get outside and spend more time more quality time in nature and the great outdoors. It seems like there's so many products that are just gimmicky that, you know, think back to like, remember those old survival knives where it had the— on the pommel it would unscrew and it had like a fire starting kit, it had a compass on the tip, it had a saw, it had serrations, it had— oh yeah, you know, it would do anything and everything, but it didn't actually work for anything really.

But cut. Yeah. And then you Yeah, and then you hit a log with it and it just breaks in half. So yeah, oh, I absolutely remember what— remember those. Those were—

Yeah, I think the handle was usually plastic.

Yep, exactly, exactly. Plus there's no tang running through the handle, you know. And then like you said, you open it and your matches are garbage and your compass doesn't work, and it's like, yeah, okay, so less is more.

You know, I think I got one of those I think I got one of those as a present when I was probably 9 years old or something. And that may have been the knife that really got me interested in knives in general, just because it was so cool. Like, oh, it can do all of this stuff. I mean, you know, when you're, when you're that age, you're not really thinking about kind of a less is more, or, oh, we need one tool that does one job really well. You're just like, oh, it can do this and this and this, and I can take it everywhere. And yeah, but I think that was one of those that—

It's got all the bells and whistles.

Yeah.

Exactly. You know, actually, my— so a little bit of background real quick. I grew up going to gun shows with my dad that, you know, that's where my love for guns and knives truly every weekend we had our— we had a table, we had all sorts of stuff for sale. And my dad said, he's like, yeah, you know, help me sell stuff. He's like, whatever you sell, he's like, if you sell it for a little bit more than the sticker, or if we can come down $20 on it, and you only come down $10, you know, whatever, you can keep the extra money. use that money to go buy whatever you want. Well, when I— when we started doing this, I was, you know, 5, 6, 7, um, and 9 times out of 10, I was just like sleeping under the table or eating jerky that I found at one of the, you know, something stupid. Um, but, uh, the very first time I actually made some money, I, uh, I had my eyeball on this little blue folding knife on the table next to ours, and it had a little red LED And it was just, it was garbage. It was, you know, made in China and some garbage steel with a bunch of plastic on it. And it wasn't anything, but it was cool to me because it was the first knife I bought with, you know, my own money. And ironically, I, I, even though it was a cheap knife, I still have it. There's nothing wrong with it. And the LED still works. And it's still the original battery, which—

Oh my gosh.

Blows my mind. Yeah, I lost it for years. And then I just recently found it when we moved. And so I Added it back to the collection.

Wow, that's some killer batteries it's got in it, huh?

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure it's just like a little watch battery, which either that you know speaks to how great that battery is or speaks to how long I lost it.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like just sitting under a couch. But nice. That's funny.

Jason, what what does your design process look like, and how has that changed over the years? So, and let's use well, let's say we could use our Gasper Fourknife as an example. But it might be a little bit different because when, when I came to you asking about helping us to design this, and we already had a pretty good idea, but it evolved quite a bit. So maybe just give us a walkthrough about your, your typical design process and how that's changed over the years and also how that differed with this project.

Yeah, absolutely. So my typical design process, I always pencil sketch first. I'm, you know, pencil, pen, paper. I lay out 20, 30, 40, if I'm feeling it, uh, designs before I kind of go with a half a dozen and kind of start merging them before I even go to CAD, like you said. Uh, but this, this Gasper project was definitely different. You came to me with pretty much the, the design in mind, or at least the, you know, the exterior perimeter and, and what you wanted to accomplish and, and target user. Like, it was, it was perfect. So usually we have to work through All of that. Yeah, you know, uh, yeah, figure out target demographic, uh, what's your, your user, who your user is going to be, what they're going to be using it for, you know. Is this going to be a product that could be, you know, is it, is it, could they hand it down to their grandkids someday? Or is this like, hey, we're gonna make a real beater, we don't even want it to last one person's lifetime because we want to, you know what I mean? Like, so there's just this— Yeah. Wealth of research that goes into every project before you— before I go to CAD. And then we go to CAD, we work through a few other, you know, designs and tweaks, get some real pretty renderings, and, and then, then we 3D print. So I 3D print just to get the feel. And that to me is so— it's a huge step that I think— I don't know how you feel, but I feel a lot of people don't spend enough time on. And I know with this Gaspar project, I was impressed personally with the amount of, um, in-between work, you know, the prototyping work to get that handle fit right with, uh, 3D printing and 3D printing and, and just tweaking and 3D printing again. And, you know, there was quite a bit of back and forth, which I appreciate, um, just to get that feel where you're like, I know what I want it to feel like and I know what I want it to look like. I have this idea in my head. And sometimes it's a journey to get there.

Trying to get those 2 aspects to merge can be challenging, I think.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think we knocked it out of the park on this one. But if you skip those steps in that process, it can fall apart quick. You go run a batch of these, and there's a gnarly hotspot on your index finger for everybody who's right-handed or whatever. And it's like, oh yeah, we missed that. Well, why'd you miss it? You probably didn't do enough research. You probably didn't rush through the process. Yeah, exactly. And that's the last thing you want to do. Yeah. Especially like you said, when you're making your number one tool.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's been a really fun process, at least for myself and my brothers who are all part of this collaboration to design the quote unquote perfect knife, which I mean, we all know there is no such thing. Because we've been talking about creating a knife like this for probably 10 years or longer. And so we'd be sitting around the fire after either camping or hunting or what have you and just comparing knives and say, what do you like about it? What do you not like about it? What would you change if you could design your own? What would that look like? How would that— how would it differ from the ones you have or have seen that are on the market? And so it was just a really, really fun process and working with you with this, just to take these ideas that conceptually we had in our head or kind of try to sketch out on paper, but actually put them into a format where we can see it and then feel it when it comes to the 3D printing side and then the prototypes now and just go along with that. And so it's been a lot of fun.

Yeah, definitely. I don't know, sometimes the prototypes are more fun to play with than the final knife is, only because you're like, yeah, the point of this is almost, you know, destruction or long-term use. Like, yes, hey, let's use this thing and baton through this log. For 3 hours and just like, let's make a mass amount of kindling and see what happens. And that's where you kind of, you know, find it through the night. Yeah, put it through its paces. That's when you find out what it can shine at, what you can improve upon. You know, and just, and just asking those questions like, what do you know, there's, like you said, there isn't the perfect all-round knife. I don't think I don't know if there ever will be. Everybody's different. Um, but what do you want it to do? And I think that's something that I appreciated when you guys came to me was you really knew like, hey, we want this thing to be able to skin a deer or even process an elk, but we also want it to chop mushrooms and, and tomatoes, you know, very soft vegetables at a campsite next to the fire. So, you know, it's like, okay, what kind of grind is good for that? So we're looking at, you know, full flats or high sabers. For like the veggies, but you know, can that still process, process an animal well? Can it skin well? So then you start looking at, you know, oh, a high saber grind, you know, you can pinch right up on it and get in there and just get those sinews and just break down those animals real fast. Just, just little things like that that, you know, you either put the thought into or you don't.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And, and you did. Thank you.

Yeah, it's definitely been a process and I feel like the design Did change quite a bit as we were going through this process. And, you know, with our first original drawings and the blade shape and the handle length and so many of those different aspects, and then both in feedback from you, and then testing out a lot of different knives, just to see what, what would work the best and how it would try to meet all of these different, different tasks that we'd be using it for. So, and I think we've come really, really close to— Right. Not the perfect knife, but the perfect knife for what we're going for.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know. I've been playing around with it. You know, it's one of those things. It's kind of like, that's why I like flipper knives, right? Like folding knives, because you sit there and play with it. Well, I mean, anybody who likes knives, I got a knife, I got a table full of knives in front of me. And I'm sitting here playing with the, the Gasper 4 prototype. And it's like, man, that's just, that's just good. Like, it feels good in my hand. Yeah. I don't know. When you, when you get it right, It works.

100%. Totally agree there. Jason, tell me, where did your interest in the outdoors come from? Where did that love and interest of just being in nature and spending as much time as possible— where did that come from for you?

Yeah, 100% my dad. I mean, my mom too. My mom, a big hiker, you know, avid outdoors. But my dad was the guy that was, hey, it's 5 o'clock in the morning and you're going to come out hunting with me. And, you know, when you're a kid, sometimes that's not super fun. I'm gonna go sit in a deer blind and freeze my butt off and, and probably not see anything. But then, oh, over time, it's just like, for me, it didn't become about that anymore. You know what I mean? It was more just, I'm spending time with my thoughts, with myself, with my dad, with whomever it might be, a friend. And it doesn't matter. You know, if we set traps or if we're hunting or just sitting around a fire, whatever it is, and just, just having a good time. And I really think that's kind of where my love for the outdoors was, was born. I actually was homeschooled for a couple of years total.

So was I.

Huge backstory. Were you really?

Yeah, actually all the way through kindergarten, all the way through high school.

Really? Oh no, that's awesome. Yeah. I was only homeschooled for a few years because I wasn't good at math and I liked to fight. But me too.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, it's funny how those things— those— the school doesn't like, uh, they don't like those things. Um, so I was homeschooled for a few years, and actually one of my classes, um, my dad was a corrections officer and he got home around 4 o'clock, and at 4 o'clock we had survival training. Uh, and it was like, yeah, math, science, reading, survival training. Yeah, those are just normal classes, uh, if you're homeschooled. And, and we literally would do that. We'd We'd go outside, it's like, hey, today you're gonna learn how to build a figure 4 trap, or hey, today you're gonna do some snares and we're gonna get a rabbit and I'm gonna teach you how to, you know, process a rabbit or something like that. Um, yeah, it was just— to me, that's what I look forward to during the day. It's like I couldn't sleep in long enough and get my work out of the way fast enough. I'm not a morning— I'm not a morning person. But, and that's kind of what I look forward to. And because of that, it was just like, hey, there's this new thing that I discovered and it's called the outdoors and it's awesome. But yeah, I don't know.

It's just nice. Would you say that your interest just in spending time in the outdoors, is there one aspect that really appeals to you the most, whether that's hunting or bushcrafting or kind of the survival side or preparedness or EDC or, you know, there's so many different aspects of people that they just in the outdoor space and in the industry in general, whether that's backpacking, thru-hiking, you know, high mountain fishing, whatever the case may be.

Yeah, absolutely. So there's 3 answers to that. It's multifaceted. The first one is hunting. I just came in, you know, I guess more bushcrafting than hunting because at the end of the day, 9 times out of 10, all we do is end up bushcrafting and not actually, you know, we're sitting there, you know, carving like, hey, I can make this, this pot hanger so that this thing hangs over the fire way better than the last time. Like, look how good I'm getting at this. But, and, uh, and not even paying attention, you know, we're sitting in our blind like carving pot hangers instead of like watching for animals. But, uh, uh, so yeah, bushcrafting definitely. EDC, bushcrafting actually led me to EDC, which, if you know the worlds, they don't necessarily come together a lot. The EDC world, you know, expensive pocket knives, pry bars, bottle openers, compared to the, you know, the bushcraft world, which is leather knives, you know, that type of thing. So yeah, EDC, but that's, it's a totally different animal. And I don't even know how to describe that. It's just I like knives, so why not have one all the time? And then hiking. Hiking is, is the other thing. I just, I have a passion for hiking. My parents live in Sevierville outside of Gatlinburg.

Oh yeah.

You know, I live in West Michigan. Yeah, I live in West Michigan, right along— I literally, the North Country Trail ran along the back edge of the 80 acres that I grew up on. So hiking was huge. And that's bled into my, you know, the bushcrafting and stuff like that. Definitely. I'm always trying to get light knives, lighter. I'm always incorporating bright colors into things. Because if you drop your knife, you know, like I have orange liners on all my bushcrafting knives or hi-vis yellow. Just, yeah, things like that. And I think they're— even though sometimes they don't seem to merge well. They— a lot of stuff is definitely, definitely crosses over those lines. I am EDCing fixed blades a lot more, for instance.

Got it.

But yeah.

So when it comes to your own EDC carry, let's actually— let me rephrase this. What gear would you consider that's absolutely essential that you always have to have either on you just on a day-to-day basis? And if you're spending any time in the outdoors, so what would be part of your kit that you always carry? So, okay, questions there.

Yeah, so my, my EDC, my everyday, I actually, you know, my 9 to 5, I'm a medical product designer or medical display designer. So it's not, you know, a 7-inch fixed blade by any means. I work in an office in a cubicle and all that, all that stuff. So I typically carry a folding knife. Currently, I actually have my Shirogorov Neon Little flipper, which is fun. Playing with that right now. I have a pry bar in my left pocket, which I actually make. It's— I call it the Ursa Pry. And I just carry that because, you know, my shear Goroff is— I won't say how much. If you know shear Goroff, they're not cheap. But I'm not going to be opening paint cans with it anytime soon. So I make these little pocket tools, and it has like a driver bit and a bottle opener and Yeah, for opening boxes, things like that. And then obviously like wallet, cell phone, you know, the more random things. But as far as EDC goes, I always got the knife, the pry bar, and usually a flashlight, a small— I carry a couple Maritacs, you know, small AA flashlights or like an Olight. That's pretty much my EDC on a day-to-day. And then my outdoor EDC, if that's what you want to call it, my bushcrafting EDC is actually my Firecraft FC4. So yeah, you've, you know, we've gone back and forth. So you've seen that one. But I like the 4-inch, which is very similar in blade length to the Gasper that we've been working on. Same thing in blade width. I just think it's like the perfect size. It can, you know, pretty much do anything at the campsite. So that's always on my hip. And then that comes— I have a ferro rod and then my, my actual kit that I bring bushcrafting, which has all sorts of stuff in it.

Gotcha. Yeah, cool. Wait till you see the ferro rod that we're coming out with.

Yeah, that's exciting. And see, those, those types of details to me are like the cherry on the cake, right? Like A lot of companies really don't think of the package. So with a knife, I think it should come with a quality Kydex sheath. It should come with quality ferro rod, and so that you don't have to do all those things when you get the knife. I mean, I don't know about you, but the last thing I want to do is order a nice knife, a good high-end fixed blade, and then turn around and order a custom sheath. And ferro rod. And I mean, building out your own kit is fun, don't get me wrong. But if you're investing money like that, why not get all those things from the beginning?

Definitely agree with that. And that's one thing that we're trying to do with ReWild Gear, because it doesn't seem like there's many companies that have thought through that process. You know, you have some that either they just focus on the knives and then the sheath is an afterthought, or they only do ferro rods and they don't do knives. So it's like Yeah, it just seems like it's not a very thought-out organic process when it comes to all of these gear that most people, they need no matter what they're doing in the outdoors. I'm not sure why that is, but hopefully we're going to change that.

Yeah, I don't know either. And it's like little things like I have my, my Firecraft 3.5 Pro. This one I designed specifically because I wanted a good hiking knife, fixed blade that I could put on my backpack. It wasn't super heavy, but I could still baton a log if I needed to. That's like I have the high 5 is yellow scales on this one. And yeah, I like— I fixed blade, I EDC this one all the time because you don't feel like you're carrying around a machete.

Yeah.

And it— and you don't notice it on your belt. So it's like little things like that that I think, I think are key. And it's got like this awesome Kydex sheath that rides scout carry. So it just disappears on my belt. Big, big lanyard hole so I can just grab it, pull it. It's great.

That's great. I actually have the same one except in the orange, um, that I keep it in the console of my truck.

Perfect. Yeah, yeah, that's actually my, uh, my buddy at work has, uh, he makes, uh, overlanding stuff, uh, and part of what he makes— he's got an awesome truck, but, uh, he's got MOLLE panels that he makes for the interior of his truck, and he's got the FC 3.5 Mounted to his MOLLE panel inside his truck. I thought that was pretty cool.

Gotcha. So we came to work together through an introduction, I believe, with, with White River Knives, who I know you partnered with them, Firecraft line. How did that partnership come about? And how did you end up working with them? Because they make great, great equipment. I actually met those at Blade Show in Atlanta a couple years ago and just super impressed with them.

Yeah, yeah. Um, White— oh, they're fantastic people, you know, small family-owned. Like, they make some of the, like, bespoke quality heirloom, like, fantastic stuff. Um, and honestly, I'll call it pure dumb luck. Um, I live here in West Michigan, like I said, and I was looking for a company. I had just piles of ideas that, you know, I have a shop in my garage, I couldn't produce. Half of this stuff, even if I wanted to. So I was just looking for somebody to produce a couple prototypes for me to see if I had something, you know, to get out in the woods with to see if it was close enough to a finished product. So I had sent them a couple renderings just years ago by Googling, like, hey, what are some knife makers local? And kind of like my early on stuff at Kendall, they looked at it and I'm sure that they didn't even want to entertain the email or phone call. They're like, oh, what is this crap? But then a couple years went by and I just kind of kept doing it on my own and building a reputation for myself through social media and really just mostly through EDC, making bottle openers and, you know, multi-tools and stuff. And they actually reached back out to me and They were like, hey, you know, we kind of see what you got going on. Uh, your stuff's been looking pretty awesome. And I said, you know, actually I have this, uh, Firecraft— or what was it called? Trademark. Sorry, I can't call it the old name. Gotta cease and desist for that one.

Oh.

Uh, it's part of the process, you know. I didn't, uh, I didn't do my due diligence on, on the old Google to see if companies existed. But, uh, so changed the name and, uh, I was like, hey, check the check this knife out. See what you think. You know, see if it's something you guys would be interested in producing for me. And I got an email back, and it was just like, yeah, like we gotta we gotta do something with this. This thing is not like anything we're seeing right now, but it's still not what was the word you used earlier? I think kitschy. It's not. I don't know, everything's functioning. Yeah, I'm looking for the word, but I can't, can't quite find it.

It—

yeah, so we just kind of came together. And I actually ended up producing a real rough prototype. That was before I had a 3D printer. And they were like, yeah, this thing's ugly, but we'll make it work. And, and they did, they knocked out a few knives for me. And we got the FC5. And You know, the Gen 1 FC5, which had a little bit blockier handles. And then we kind of over time slowly changed a few small things, updated the sheath, ferro rod, handle to kind of come to what we have now. So, and yeah, we're pretty proud of it.

They're great knives. I really like them. Like I said, when I was at Blade Show a couple years ago, I'd never heard of White River or your Firecraft line or any of that. I was looking at them like, man, these are beautiful. And they just look incredibly made. And I think I bought like 3 or 4 knives from them at the show. I'm like, these are incredible, and just kind of kept in contact.

We appreciate it. What do you— what you said, 2 years ago?

Yeah, that would have been— it wasn't— yeah, it would have been 2019.

Because 2019. Okay, cool. I was just wondering, because yeah, so then we would have had this version of the newest version of the Firecraft in 2019, because 2017 Going into 2018 is when we kind of changed a few of the things. But 2017 is actually the year that we kind of got the most accolades for the Firecraft line.

Mm-hmm.

With 2017 Fixed Blade Knife of the Year at SHOT Show and a few other accolades from different magazines and Field and Stream Fixed Blade Knife of the Year. It was just like kind of out of nowhere for me because I had only been with White River for, you know, a year and a half.

Yeah.

And yeah, just blown out of the water. It was an awesome experience.

So that's really cool. That's amazing. Maybe we'll get similar accolades with the Gasper 4.

We'll see. I don't see why not. It's— yeah, it's awesome.

We'll have to talk more about that process as far as getting it out there for people to see and whoever the decision makers are.

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Jason, what's your all-time favorite knife design? You know, there's so many different designs. And I don't know if I would— if I want to phrase this as your favorite, like, knife company or more favorite style of knife.

Oh man, such a tough question. Um, it really is because it, you know what I mean? What is this, a Monday? Is it Tuesday? No, my, my favorite style of knife, honestly, is I'm a big plain titanium flipper fan. So if it's a, yes, medium-sized pocket knife, just blasted titanium, I don't think there's anything more classier. I'm also a sucker for green micarta, like inlays and stuff. So I don't know if I could— if I have a favorite, right? It's always changing. But I am always drawn back to Chris Reeves. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the Reeves knives. They're just so classic and timeless. I mean, he, he's got knives out there that have been out there for 20 years, 30 years. It doesn't even have a scratch on it. It looks like it was made yesterday. You'd never be able to tell because it's like like the design is just— it's awesome. There's a few other ones out there too that are just phenomenal. But I'm a big Chris Reeve fan, Shirogorov. I love higher-end flipper knives. That's kind of my collection, if that's what you want to call it.

Gotcha. What about fixed blade? If there's one that you like better than others style-wise?

Fixed blades? style-wise. That's kind of my other— I mean, as you can see, I also have piles of those fixed blades and folders. Yeah, right. Favorite fixed blade? I don't know if I have an answer. I know that's pretty disheartening. But I don't know if I— You like too many of them. Yeah. And I just don't know if I've come across like the perfect fixed blade yet, right? Like this, this Shirogorov that I have right now in my pocket. I had it once, I sold it. And I instantly went out and I regretted the decision. And I went out and bought a brand new one with the maroon. I gotta get the one with the OD inlays, you know, gotta have one in every color.

Yeah.

But as far as fixed blades, I'm not— I haven't found like the perfect fixed blade yet. I think I'm just having too much fun doing my own thing. And I'm not, I'm not into high-end flippers. I'm not into them. I'm, I'm not making them. So I think it's one of those things that as a maker and a designer, it's fun to carry stuff that you don't do.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense.

You know, so like I have, I have my own friction folder that I make. It's called the Neptune. And I carry those from time to time. They're titanium, you know, S35VN, Nice. You know, I try to do like the classic lines. It's got a little bottle opener built into it. So it's fun. But it's still not like, I don't know, it's not as fun as doing, you know, gotcha.

We'll have to talk about doing a, doing a flipper maybe for Rewild Gear.

Yeah, there you go.

Gotcha. Start thinking about a little bit. So the one, the knife that I'm typically carrying just as my EDC is a Spyderco The, the Salt 5, I believe it is.

Oh yeah. Is that the yellow one? Do you have it? Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, it's yellow. And it's got the, the LC200N steel, which I like because it's so corrosion resistant, and it stays pretty sharp. And I like it a lot. I think the blade shape, the geometry of it could be changed a little bit.

Spyderco is one of those, one of those companies, you know, you either love them or you hate them. I've owned quite a few of them. I like them. They're unique from a design perspective with that big spidey eye.

Yeah.

Oh, but yeah, you're not kidding. Corrosion resistant. I actually saw the— have you watched the video where they put one in the— what was it? The Salt Lake Flats?

I did. Yeah.

That was so cool.

They left it there for like a year or something.

Yeah, exactly. And Blade HQ, like, that was a cool video.

Yeah, definitely raise some eyeballs and make people think.

Right? Yeah. Well, it's, it's one of those things that, you know, it's, you're, you're paying a little bit of extra money for Spyderco, but it's gonna last forever. You know, it's gonna last a long time. Some, I have a couple friends that are like, oh, they're plastic, they, you know, whatever, whatever. But it's like, no, it's, it's not. It's a totally different thing. And yeah, they're good knives. I've, I've actually carried a Benchmade, uh, Bugout.

Oh yeah, I had one of those and I didn't— Yeah, no, see, I have the Benchmade and I ended up giving it to my son because I'm like, it felt flimsy to me for some reason.

Oh, see, I have the Benchmade Bugout and I upgraded to the Flytanium— no, sorry, it's the Rockwell, I think, custom titanium scales.

Okay.

And it just elevates the whole knife. And then, you know, their deep carry pocket clip. And to me, it kind of checks all the, the EDC boxes. It's lightweight, I got titanium, you know, it's not too big, it's got a good steel, it's got the deep carry. So kind of for every group of knife, I have like this set parameters. And if it falls within those parameters, I'll buy it. Got it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

It's gotta, gotta check some boxes.

Yep. Jason, is there a knife or other piece of gear that you love and wish you had designed? When you, you grabbed it for the first time, you're like, man, I could have come up with that. I wish that was me.

Yeah, actually. So I'm, I'm also a big fan of Leon Ma. And he actually works with White River. And they just— I don't know if you've seen it. But Today posted a picture on the White River page of his 2 kitchen knives.

I did see that.

And they're just, they're beautiful. And kitchen knives, they're one of those things that you either nail it or you don't. There's not a lot to it. And that goes back to that, you know, that less is more. If you don't get the lines right, if you don't get the heel right and the bevel right, It's just, it isn't a good kitchen knife. And I think that one is beautiful. And I really would have loved to— I think that's my next project. Let's put it that way. I— Yeah, some good, good kitchen knives. I'm a huge fan of, you know, the Japanese style of culinary arts and just their kitchen knives and everything about it. I think they're beautiful. And yeah, that's my next project for sure. Kitchen knife.

What kind of steel will you use for that? Or have you decided yet?

I don't— everything up to this time, at least working with White River Knife and Tool, is S30 or S35VN or 3V. We've done some stuff in 3V. So probably S35VN. I think that it just holds such a nice edge no matter how thin you grind it. I didn't actually look to see what those ones were today. I'm assuming they were S35VN. But yeah, probably, probably that. I also, I'm a fan of M390, Nitro-V. There's a couple other ones that I think are also pretty good steels, but S35VN, it's just It's just a good all-around steel. Yeah, you can still sharpen it at the end of the day. Like, that's— you get some of those and you get out in the bush and you're like, well, good luck. It's dull. It's a butter knife now. And, you know, S35VN, it takes a little bit more effort, but you can still get a dang good edge on it.

Yeah, we went through such a long research process on deciding what type of knife steel for the Gasper 4. And my brother Josh, he's something of a steel nerd. And he's the one that probably went the deepest on it. Yeah, I would just read like a high level of overview about— I'm like, okay, it meets these criteria and these criteria. Because for me, it was one of those trying to split that difference between all the different components of the steel and have something that is corrosion resistant. It's going to maintain an edge, it's easy to sharpen, but it's not brittle, you know.

Yep. And I think, I think that's a big key, at least living up here in Michigan too, is, is the corrosion, right? So for bushcraft, 9 times out of 10, you're gonna hear somebody go, oh, well, if you're bushcrafting, you need 1095, you know, a nice high carbon, super easy to sharpen. Well, it also loses its edge quite a bit quicker. You know, now I have plenty of knives in 1095 and 1085 even that are fine. But if you know what you're doing, you know, I'm not a metallurgist by any stretch of the imagination. But the guys at White River, you know, their heat treat with their S35VN is phenomenal. You know, it's, it's right at that sweet spot where you're not chipping edges, You know, and a roll is easier to fix than a chip, obviously. But I, on all of my knives, I don't even think I've had either. Their heat treat is just, it's great.

Wow. Yeah, that's, that's great. Jason, what's something that you'd love to design but have been too scared to try? Something outside of maybe knives and like EDC tools and all that? Well, coming from Audacious goal that something like, man, I'd really like that, but I'm just not sure if I'm ready yet.

Yeah. Oh, well, coming from the medical world, like, it's just, I designed some weird stuff sometimes. And I think that's kind of why knives sometimes are so— they're calming to me, you know, they're normal. Most people look at it and go, well, you're a knife, you're weird knife guy. It's not normal to them, but to me it's simple, it's easy, it's what I know. And honestly, what I don't know, but what I've always wanted to design is that this is like an industrial designer's dream, right? Shoes. Sounds super weird, but shoes are really fun to draw. It's kind of like knives. You just have certain shapes. And I've always had a shoe thing and I I think that maybe like a good pair of hiking boots would be really cool to design, or even like a nice hiking backpack, like a nice 70-liter. Yeah, something in that world, maybe soft goods. That's what we'll go with. That's what we'll go with, soft goods. I don't design many soft goods.

Have you read Phil Knight's book, the founder of Nike, Shoe Dog?

I have not.

Really, really good book. Talks about—

Okay.

Founding Nike and everything and his process and fascinating book. I read it last summer when I was camping up near Yellowstone, so in Wyoming, and I was just laying in the hammock and reading it, you know, for hours. Great book.

Awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely, I'll definitely pick that one up because it's just like anything, the process is similar, right? So why not?

Yeah, exactly.

Just got to find the right, the right people that know what they're doing. So I don't start with what I brought White River with the first Firecraft where they're like, yeah, we see where you were going, but you brought us this. Yeah.

Cool. Jason, what, what companies in the outdoor space do you think are doing a really good job? Like what brands, whether that's their products they're putting out, their messaging, how they're positioning themselves, who do you look up to and admire when it comes to companies in the outdoor space?

Yeah, um, I definitely— so there's a company that I collect a lot of their stuff, it's called Prometheus Design Works.

I have one of their flashlights.

Do you? All right, so they— I just, I think they're doing a fantastic job. Also Triple Ott Design, TAD, those are kind of the 2 companies that I kind of put in in this zone of, uh, I feel like they're doing things right. You know, they, they've got the look, they've got the feel, um, their marketing, their products, just top down, um, they seem to be, you know, hitting all the marks, at least in my opinion. Um, so those are kind of the 2 companies that I try to, um, you know, emulate, I guess would be a good word, but just Yeah, I don't know. They're they're knocking out of the park every time. Every time I get one of their products, it's like wow, this is you know this is awesome. I just got one Prometheus Design Works pry tool. It's just a little pry bar, and it's like wow, they they thought about everything on this thing. I have a similar pry tool that essentially competes with it, and you know there's this D two mine's titanium, and I. I carry theirs on a regular basis. I don't know if, you know, if one thing's better than the other, but theirs has a pocket clip. So that ends up in the pocket.

Gotcha. Cool. What are 3 things that most people don't know or understand about your area of expertise?

Oh, yeah. Well, the first thing is when I tell people I'm an industrial designer, they instantly think I design like forklifts. So, so that's fun. So a lot of times I'll tell people I'm a product designer because it's just a little bit more broad. Man, I've got some pretty funny comments about that one for like industrial designer. Do you design industrial things for the industry? I'm like, that's about as vague as it gets. I don't even know what you're asking.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't know. Sorry, I got sidetracked just thinking of people's like— yeah, it's pretty funny. That's definitely a misconception of what I do. Sorry.

No problem. What can we all do to help improve the outdoor industry? One of the big things that we're focusing on with Rewild Gear is the conservation side and realizing that if we don't protect nature and protect the outdoors and our wild spaces, you know, we're going to lose it, whether that's urban expansion or overhunting of certain animals or species and environmental factors that we're dealing with, all of that. What do you see as the biggest threat right now? And what can we all do to kind of help improve the spaces for all of us and just protect nature in general?

What's the biggest threat? People. People. Or dumb people. I guess I should put that little asterisk in front. You know, it's just my biggest pet peeve is people that really just aren't considerate of the people after them. Um, you know, there's massive things that are hugely important with animal conservation, uh, like you were talking about, but I just get so frustrated with, you know, showing up at a campsite or a bushcraft site or just randomly and just finding trash.

Yeah.

I, I don't know why I get so upset about it. It's not that like I'm getting upset because I have to pick it up and it's my problem. It's the fact that, you know, these people just don't have any consideration. It's like even little things, like you don't need to stack a pile of rocks to take a cool picture for Instagram. If every— if every person does that when they go to this, you know, Moab, there's going to be no rocks left on the ground. They'll all be stacked. And just stupid things like that. It doesn't sound that huge, but there's so many people in the world that we're just creating this massive impact in these areas that are protected, that aren't going to be there for very long if we keep screwing them up. You know, like Yellowstone, like you mentioned, like go to Yellowstone, take pictures, enjoy it, don't touch anything.

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And that's one of the things that we're trying to do with all the gear that we're coming out with is realizing that there's so many companies right now and they're just trying to make something as quick as they can. And as disposable as they can, because they're going to make more sales that way. Once it breaks, then somebody's going to buy another one.

Yeah.

And my philosophy has always been the opposite. Let's buy it once, cry once, you know, build something that's going to last like the way things used to be made, you know, 50 years ago or whatever, where it would be passed on to our grandkids. And so I want to get back to that. And I think that's a much more environmentally and ecologically responsible attitude to have when it comes to equipment and just thinking long-term and not just short-term profits.

Absolutely. And I, you know, and you could pretty much take that and just run it across the gamut of life, right? Just fix, fix something. That's, that's another thing. It's like we throw everything away, you know, it's if it breaks, throw it away, buy a new one, or try fixing it and still using it.

Yeah.

So, you know, that was a big thing that was ingrained in us growing up on a farm. You know, you don't, very short, you know, limited funds, but you're surrounded by piles of stuff. So what do you need? Well, just go make it, figure it out, you know, bring something back from the dead and make it new again.

Do you think it's a lot harder to do that now though, considering that most things are made out of plastic as opposed to metal or some durable hard material?

I think in that aspect it definitely is, but I think it's harder now than it used to be Because people aren't taught that you can fix things now. And I think that more than anything is the thing that's holding people up. We got computers and calculators and phones and all these things that are based in technology, which is once technology breaks— I'm not a computer person. I can't rebuild a computer. If it breaks, I'll just go buy a new one. Well, I know somebody that can rebuild it. It's kind of the same thing, you know, in the knife world. It's, hey, my knife broke. I'm gonna go buy a new one. Oh, well, I know a guy that can regrind that for you. Or, you know, it's small, potentially bad example, but it all applies.

How can we change that attitude, though? What do you think the secret is? Or what can we do to help change people's attitudes when it comes to anything, whether it's something in the outdoors or just everyday life, as opposed to considering everything is just a throwaway and buy something new, as opposed to fixing things in general and keeping it around for the long term.

Yeah. Well, I think in one aspect, and I think it sounds like in Rewild, you guys are kind of doing the same thing that we've been trying to do, and that's intentionally make heirloom-quality products that you want to use but you want to keep around and you want to hand down. You know, it's not just another whatever that you're just going to throw away. There's— it's an investment that you're creating for a lifetime, potentially multiple lifetimes. Um, so I think it's a mindset, and I don't know if there's a good way to change people's mindset, you know, like—

Yeah.

In the, in the short term. Unfortunately, it's kind of how we've developed as a Yeah.

Hopefully that'll change over time, but we'll see.

I hope so. And maybe I use the word— I wouldn't call that develop. That's kind of the opposite. It's unfortunate.

Yeah, exactly. Jason, what book or books have had the biggest impact on your life?

Books, reading. I was homeschooled, remember? Yeah. I don't know. I read a lot of design literature. I read a lot online, more than books. Actually, some of the books that I read that impacted my life as far as the outdoors things that were interesting to read were books that I read in high school or middle school. Or, you know, one of my favorite ones when I was a kid actually was The Hatchet and Brian's Winter. They're like, I don't know, 5th, 6th grade reading books, but they were about this kid that was surviving. And I remember reading a part where he like burnt out the center of a tree and hollowed it out and lived in it. And it was during the winter. And in the— oh, where was it? Like the Finger Lakes area or something like that in New York. And it was just like, I don't know, there was something interesting because I wasn't a reader or into math or things like that. So it's finding that thing that catches your attention and turns you into a reader. And that caught my attention. So yeah. Probably a different answer than what I know what you were looking for, but that's okay.

Nothing wrong with that. Do you have a favorite podcast that you listen to regularly?

I don't. Surprisingly, I'm not a big podcast listener. Maybe I should be. Yeah, I, I listen to books and things like that online kind of while I'm doing my computer work. A lot of YouTube, a lot of— yeah, you know, I kind of unintentionally do research. I'm always watching videos of other people's products, how they're performing, you know, review videos of stuff. And I mean, that's pretty much, you know, like, now you get those rabbit holes on YouTube.

Oh yeah.

And they suggest things for you. Pretty much if anyone were to log into my YouTube, it would just be like Knife, knife, knife, gun, knife, knife, shooting. It's just like, no, cool, hiking. Um, so that's, that's pretty much all I listen to. It's a lot of, you know, Joe Rogan and, and, uh, Prepared Mind 101 or, uh, Prepper's Bunker Outdoors. Uh, just a lot of different online stuff.

Is there, is there a YouTube channel that you have that's a favorite Do you kind of go back to all the time?

I listen to Joe Rogan on a daily basis only because he's a funny guy and crazy stuff happens on that podcast.

Oh, yeah.

That's one of the reasons. But no, I kind of jump around. And I think that's the awesomeness of YouTube, right? Like, you don't have to watch the same thing every day. But I do— there's different people's opinions that I value. I'm a big proponent of in-person. So I'm one of those people that's just gonna show up. Like if I want to talk to guys at White River, I'm gonna go talk to the guys at White River.

Well, you're gonna have to put a good word in for me there when we get to our production schedule so that I can come in and watch while it's being made.

There you go. Yeah, I don't know how much pull I have over there, so you'll have to, uh, you'll have to help.

Sounds good.

No, they're, uh, they're, they're, they're awesome guys. I, I just met with them a couple weeks ago, um, at their new— I call it their new place, um, but, uh, since they've, since they've made the move up north a little further, um, it's awesome facilities. They've, they've really thought a lot of stuff out. To get their production running smooth. Not that it didn't run smooth before, but just, you know, there's, there's those little things that you can think through better that really help out with production and getting those products finished to your and I and the consumer's level of quality. Yes, in a timely fashion.

That's always the important part, in a timely fashion.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's, you know, we, you know, if I want a prototype or if you want a prototype, you go through this process and you get a prototype. If, you know, Benchmade or one of those larger, you know, Zero Tolerance or something like that wants one, it's, it's a much lengthier process. So the fact that we could start a few months ago and now I'm holding a the Gasper 4 prototype, which is essentially a finished knife, is fantastic. I think it's, it's so cool.

Yeah.

I think, you know, not to keep going on this, but I think the process— you asked an earlier question of what, you know, what draws me to this— the process is so interesting to me. That's half the fun sometimes.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I would say that the 3D printing, because we went back and forth and just small iterations on that, Like you had mentioned earlier, as far as just the handle tweaking that and just the small little details like the jimping on the back and positioning it like a millimeter. That just—

yeah, moving, you know, and that's— we have obviously different, different style jimping on your Gasper than we do my Firecraft line that we've talked about.

Yep.

You know, the, the pros and cons of both. And move, like you say, yeah, moving Moving it a millimeter. But that millimeter made, made all the difference. You know, it's, it's the gap between the jimping and the ferro notch. And now there's, there isn't an issue there. And that's all it took was that, that millimeter change and making that prototype.

Just such a very small design aesthetic that the little details, which most people, they might not even notice, but you or I who are so deep into it, we're like, It seems like a big thing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it should be.

Yeah. Jason, what's one piece of advice you would give to everyone regarding the outdoors?

Stay safe. Bring a knife. How about that?

Perfect.

I love— yeah, bring a knife.

Definitely the one thing I always have with me.

Exactly. That's, that's my, my advice. No, just, you know, Not everybody knows what they're doing, but I think everybody should be able to enjoy the outdoors, you know. Um, so just find somebody that's into it if, if that's not your thing, and that way you're safe. Um, I've had friends go out that, you know, they have no clue what they're doing, and they're like, oh yeah, I just camped in my tent overnight and then kept going. It's like, you didn't do any of the fun stuff. You didn't You didn't cook, you didn't— I don't know. So have fun, be safe, bring a knife. There you go.

Jason, before we wrap up here, where can people learn more about you online? What, what links would you like to share?

Yeah, so firecraftknives.com is the link for my knives. I also am on Facebook and Instagram, Jason Teets. If you just want to search that or teets_design on Instagram, that'll pretty much lead you to anything you need to know if you want to know more about me. Perfect.

Jason, thanks so much for your time today. This has been a lot of fun and I've learned a lot about your design process and kind of what makes you tick and get to know you a little better. And I think our audience is going to really enjoy learning about you too and get to try out collaboration.

Yeah, well, I appreciate your time, Seth, and the Gasper 4. I mean, this thing. Yeah, I'm proud to, to help you guys out on this one. And, and I'm excited to, to see it at Blade Show.

Me too.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You can check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.