Ep 8: Jared Frasier & 2% For Conservation

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. I'm your host, Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Jared Frazier. Jared is the executive director of the conservation organization 2% for Conservation. And here at Rewild, we are very proud to be members of the organization. And we, uh, some of the, some of the newest members, we just recently joined, um, about a month ago. And Jared, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, totally. Jared, tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, what's your background? How did you come to get involved in the conservation side of the outdoors and specifically 2% for Conservation?

Yeah, so I grew up in the Midwest in Wisconsin. We're based— 2% is based out of Montana, but we have members, you know, all over the world. But I was originally from Wisconsin, grew up with a pretty intense, intensely outdoors lifestyle. We were subsistence hunters and anglers and did farming and all of that to keep food in the freezer and on the table and in the pantry and in, you know, canning and raised our own bees and, you know, all the things. Grew up that way. But, when I moved out of the house, I started teaching outdoor education while I was still in my teens and working and living at different outdoor education and camp centers and things like that. That ultimately led me to come out to Montana in '07 for a 1-year school, and I got hooked and had to be back here. So I had contractual obligations back in the Midwest at the outdoor ed center I was at, but then the recession hit. So they were gonna be losing some funding anyway. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna move out here. Naturally recession hit. I had to job hop a little bit while different businesses were going under or management changes or whatever, and somehow found my way back teaching outdoor ed again at some private resorts here in the Pacific Northwest, Idaho and Montana. Got married, and over all of that, I had started learning how to code in a couple different coding languages and how to use different design apps and stuff within Adobe. So I, in essence, kind of built a business around doing that, which at the time, like coding and stuff was still very much a superpower. Like if you could do it, people were like, oh my God. So I had a business doing that for a few years. And in the course of that had been volunteering with different conservation groups in the area. I had had kids and it was pretty quick that I started noticing we were losing habitat areas. We were losing You know, good fishing and hunting spots. We were having, you know, issues with recreator conflicts and things like that. And I wanted to get involved and just try to help, not change, you know, Montana, but, you know, not, not all over the place, but, you know, try to help out where I could show up for a fence pull or something like that, or brush clearing or burns or whatever I could. And Through doing that, got to know a bunch of folks in the conservation community who do this for a job. And one day in 20— at the end of 2017, I got a phone call saying, hey, you should apply for a position. I thought it was marketing design or something like that with 2%. Showed up for the interview and it was the executive director position.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So pivoted real quick in that interview because I had realized that even though I was making a decent living, able to buy a house by the time I was 30, which is weird for a millennial to do that, it wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't— there were parts of it that were. Helping brands come up with their identities and stuff was really cool. And there are parts of it that I definitely miss. I love seeing my logos that I designed like a decade ago bouncing around to different places. There was a part of me that had grown up with philanthropy. Makes it sound like there was money involved. We were dirt poor. But, working with others, working with the lands, helping people out, helping your community out, that's what I was raised in and what my entire ethos was around. And, I honestly was not a great fit for the business world because I was always undercharging if I had a nonprofit I was working with or something like that. I knew that my time as a competitive businessman was, was coming to an end at, at, to some degree. So took the position, shuttered my business, and 2018 I came on full-time. And this is what I've been doing ever since, is running 2% and the network of businesses and individuals that make it up. Wow.

Yeah, that's a great story. You've had a diverse work experience for sure. Similar to you, I actually have had a background I used to run a boutique digital marketing agency for several years, and that was like you were saying, that was a lot of fun seeing the work that you had done out there in the wild years later, even though sometimes it would become dated and you're like, oh, they need to update that. And even though I'm not doing it anymore, you know, they need somebody to help with that. How, how has that experience shaped what you're doing now? Because I feel like marketing is one of those skill sets that it applies no matter what you're doing.

Yeah.

And I've always said that Marketing is just psychology applied.

Yeah, yeah. You know, one of the key areas is in working with our business members on talking about how they give back and why they give back. You know, cause marketing 101 isn't, look at me, I'm so awesome at all these cool things I do with my business for conservation. It's instead, here's a cause I desperately care about, my employees do, It's a big part of who we are. We'd love for you as our customer to know about it. And if you choose to support it too, that's, you know, that's good cause marketing. So that was one thing I had done quite a bit of with my agency prior to this was grabbing different community things and local Habitat things for them to be involved in. So there was a natural progression into being on the other side of that, like a not an intermediary for those kind of things, but helping people find their why. That's a big thing that you do in marketing, you know, with your brand.

Yeah.

What is your brand's why? And with 2%, I get to help businesses figure that out for why they care about different places, different species, different ecosystems at large, and help them communicate that to their customers so that they can focus on their business still, And not, you know, be trying to figure out how to not sound like a, you know, a peacock, like saying, look at me, look how awesome I am, you know. So that, that part's really translated. Another area is just helping a network of people work together. A big part of marketing is introducing good businesses to good business partners.

Right.

And with 2%, we introduce business members and individual members to good conservation causes that'll be a good fit for them to get along with for long-term relationships, collaborative efforts together, shared marketing opportunities, things like that. So I'm thankful for, even though, you know, sitting at a computer coding, you know, building sites, getting those calls at 1 in the morning, my website's down, you know, it's like, well, you know, Amazon Web Services is down. I can't do much about it. You know, I don't miss those parts, but I'm thankful for the skills that were picked up along the way through all of that.

Got it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Totally agree there. And yeah, marketing is one of those skill sets that can be applied no matter what you're doing. I think definitely that's— I found that it's always interesting, even though you have a background in a particular skill set, when you're applying it to your own business, sometimes it seems like it's so much harder.

Oh my word.

Because it's like, you know, you kind of get stuck in the weeds of it and it's hard to take that 20,000-foot view and look down and say, this is what I need to do.

Yeah.

When it comes to you're looking at someone else's business. So I'm guessing you get to apply a little bit of that 20,000-foot view where everyone else is to find holes and low-hanging fruit and all of that.

Right. Yeah, it's, it is a, a big part of what we do when we onboard a business. Now, there are businesses like yours where it's clear there's a marketer involved, you know, um, but then we have many business members who, that's, they're very happy to pay someone else to do that. So if we can help facilitate in that little corner of their business, especially with the things like internal marketing. So a big part of certification is having your company, every employee buy into this, you know, that as a business, we're going to be giving at least 1% of our gross sales to these causes that we choose as a company. And by we, I mean their company, not 2%. 2% doesn't dictate where people give. So 1% of gross sales is going to be decided by the company. And then 1% of time, so 21 hours over the course of a year, where is it going to get donated? And working with our business members, we've helped develop different internal marketing programs for employee retention, good employee recruitment. You know, how do you recruit someone who's into what you're into as well? Not someone who's just showing up for a paycheck, but someone who really wants to care about the same community and conservation issues as you. So That area, that's a super fun thing to do. You know, helping businesses incentivize. We have a couple business members who they'll do things like, you know, if different employees hit their KPIs, you know, their key performance indicators. If they're they're hitting their sales numbers or their customer review numbers, they get an extra paid day off that they get to go and volunteer, or they get a pool of dollars that they can then spend on behalf of the company. And when you start Giving that at all the levels of your business, you develop just this really close-knit team who feels like they own the business to some degree because of what they're connected to and what the brand ends up supporting. And it's really rewarding for all involved.

That's a great point. And I think we're seeing a lot more of that in today's, in today's age, just business in general, where so many companies, they're focusing on a specific cause. That said, obviously you're focusing very specifically on the outdoor industry, you know, whether that's hunting or fishing or camping, backpacking, and all of those kind of ancillary niches that surround that. What about businesses in other industries where they're not specifically outdoor-focused but want to implement a conservation ethic within their organization? What would you recommend there?

We have, we have several business members that are outside of outside of hunting, fishing products and services and whatnot. Like right now we have, I think we just certified our 9th coffee company. So, if you're not drinking 2% certified coffee, that's on y'all.

We may or may not be working on a coffee ourselves.

Oh, cool. Fantastic. So, there's many brands. I mean, we've got Let's see here. There's like ecological engineers. There's a family-owned piano repair company in Alabama.

Wow.

There's, you name it, that we've got a business likely close to getting certified or certified in that area. And what they do is really, this is where us not dictating how and where you give is super important. Because let's say for y'all where you're based, What we're talking about for conservation issues are wildly different from even a couple states over, you know, in Texas or, you know, north or anything like that.

Yes.

And that varies, you know, exponentially then the further away you get up to our members up in Canada or over in Scotland or Australia. And so we work with every single one of them, no matter what their industry is, on what do your employees care about. So for example, in Minnesota, there's River City Tile and Stone owned by Mike Schmillen. Awesome guy. He volunteers for 2% actually as a committee member to help point people to places to give. He's a president of a couple different local chapters of conservation organizations himself on top of running his own business. But his employees, he incentivizes, you know, they— if they're, you know, getting good reviews from their customers for the inlays they do on flooring and stuff like that, again, tile and stone company. If they do that, he gives them, you know, time for them to go and volunteer. This summer, they're actually driving out here to Montana. He's bringing a bunch of his team, and they're going to help with a pronghorn migration project, and we're going to take them fishing and stuff. And it's as a big thank you to his employees for how much they chipped in in 2020. So there's, you know, there's— the sky's the limit on what you want to do, and we're happy to work with folks on that. So again, you can focus on your business And we'll help you figure out these little areas that will add, you know, some real value to what you present to both your employees and your customers.

Yeah. Oh, that's great. What about for companies that are completely distributed? You know, they have employees all over the country. But for us, because we are a completely distributed company, like I'm in Florida, my brother Josh is in Arizona, my other brother Adam is in Texas, and my other brother David is in Kentucky. So our passion really is The woods, the mountains, camping, hunting, backpacking, all of that. But we're so dispersed all over the place, what we can do locally can be a little bit of a challenge from what we're super interested in versus where we're actually physically located due to jobs, careers, families, etc.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So with, with that, we have several business members that are dispersed that way as well. And especially in 2020, I started finding out that, you know, because employees could work from home, And it was looking like they were all going to be working from home for a long time. Bunch of them started moving, you know, wherever they wanted to. There were a few that went and did the whole van life thing. I was, I was looking at some of the the marketing coordinators of some of the businesses we work with, and there was one he was he was somewhere out on some BLM land in Utah with his kids for like three months.

Amazing.

You know, so what he's doing for that's a quarter of the year, right? It was his his Q2 was out in the middle of. Nowhere. So with folks like that and with businesses like that, we help them either set up different local things because we always think an employee or, you know, an owner decision maker for a business should be engaged locally with something. Because if you're not, the local community doesn't know why they should care about you. You know, the old saying, no one cares how much you know or what you say until they know how much you care.

Yes.

That's, that's very much true when it comes to working with local conservation causes. Unless you're showing up from time to time, it's tough. That said, there are organizations that have chapters that are national and international. So, you know, with, with y'all, there's like, you know, you could look at the, at the National Wild Turkey Federation. They probably have a chapter right near you and right near your brothers in each one of those regions, or If you look at like the National Wildlife Federation, they're one of the oldest conservation groups in the world, not just in the US, but they have affiliates in every single US state that you can tap in with and be involved in the political process around wildlife conservation or with habitat projects and whatnot. So there's, there's plenty of organizations that you can partner with that have a much broader reach, but then also you know, tendrils down to the local level that could probably use help as well. And the fun thing with that is if you're working with, let's say, 2 or 1, 2 or 3 organizations that have chapters where your employees are, they're all going to be speaking the same language about the different conservation projects that you help support or that you choose to go and volunteer in. It's not going to be, you know, that wildly different like it would be if you were working with a local You know, Habitat Club or something like that.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So tell me a little bit more about 2%. How does it differ from other conservation organizations? Because there's so many out there, we all do different things. And what, what is your point of differentiation when it comes to all the others that are, that kind of have very specific focuses?

We like to say that we're kind of like the Better Business Bureau, but for conservation. So we are the proof of when someone or a business says, hey, we give back, or we support conservation, or we're a very conservation-minded organization. We are the proof of that marketing that you see out in the world. So a couple areas where we're distinct. Number one, we don't touch the dollars that go out. So when a business decides they want to become 2% certified, they are not sending us the money that's going to be given out. They send that money directly to the causes that they care about, or they donate the products to those causes, or services, or space at their facilities. There's a lot of things that we count towards that 1% of gross sales, uh, given a conservation requirement. It doesn't just have to be cash. They get to choose those, and if they don't know who to give to Right now we're working with several businesses that are onboarding with us. We help them find causes that fit them. We don't dictate. We don't say, well, you can only give to these, but we give them kind of a list of them. We set up meetings and stuff to see if it's a good fit. If it's not, we help them move on to ones that are. And that kind of hands-off, kind of free market approach to them choosing where they give is also a bit of a distinction. There are organizations that will, you know, take dollars and then disperse them, but we decided before I was even brought on board that there would be a lot of potency in letting the business choose completely. There are a few things that we dictate, you know, if an organization has an active anti-hunting stance, not anti, you know, an organization can say, hey, we don't want hunting in this certain way and here's our reasons. But if they— and that's fine— but if they have a blatant, you know, hunting is not a good thing, let's get it banned, we're not going to count that organization towards giving back because we believe hunting is a conservation tool. It isn't the end-all of conservation, but it is a tool that should be in the tool chest of wildlife managers. The other thing that we won't count is if it's a political action org. So here in the US, there's different tax identifications. And anyone who's listened to this is like, oh God, do I have to look up taxes? No, we handle that. We look up and, you know, is it a 501 or is it a , , ? Because we cannot count if someone's donating to a political, you know, action funding organization. Those are the only 2 real things that we kibosh. But the biggest, you know, key differences are number one, we don't take the dollars. Number 2, We let, you know, we let you choose and we can help you find things, but ultimately it's your choice. The third big difference is our funding model. We do not compete with outdoor organizations, conservation groups, environmental groups for grants focused on them. Most nonprofits are going after grants, you know, anywhere from $1,000 to You know, in the millions, and we do not compete with them for those. Our only funding mechanisms are business member dues, which we've kept very nominal, and they scale with the size of business and can be found on our website. We publish all of that, including all of our financials, every year. We keep those as low as possible, and then we also have a license plate in Montana that we get $30 from. Anytime someone gets that custom license plate of ours. So outside of that, and maybe a couple hats and t-shirts we might sell on our website from time to time, we are not competing with other conservation groups for the dollars that they need.

Got it. Yeah, so I've noticed that on your website, which is fishandwildlife.org, so that seems— it's not 2percentforconservation.com or .org.

I mean, we own that. But we also happened— our founder and board president, Jeff Sposito, who's over at Stone Glacier, he was at Sitka when he launched us at, you know, out of the Sitka offices. Now he runs— he's CEO of Stone Glacier now. He had picked up that URL a long time ago. And man, sometimes it is— you having been in, you know, your marketing world experience, you know, having a high-value domain can be a blessing and a curse.

Yes.

And so, you know, it's, uh, I, I doubt other conservation groups are getting as many, uh, Russian bot attacks as we get attempted on a weekly basis.

Interesting.

Yeah, yeah, we, uh, we had to set up some pretty robust stuff for such a young organization, um, because of that high-value domain. But yeah, it's fishandwildlife.org. Um, we do have other things other than our certification that we do, and Our name is 2% for Conservation and likely always will be. But if you own a domain like that, you got to keep it because 2% for Conservation, you type that out, the odds of a typo are up there.

For sure. The reason I asked that question is just because using that domain, it makes it seem like you're very specifically an organization for fishing and then just general wildlife and not kind of the bigger conservation ethic because there's so many different options there.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the, the domain, you know, our main focus, our mission statement has fish and wildlife in it, um, but not necessarily just fishing and hunting, you know. Um, out of our membership, I think right now we're sitting at about a third, uh, do not hunt and about half don't fish. So, you know, and that's looking at our business and our individual members. And something we're, we're really focusing on this year and, and in the years moving forward, uh, now that the hunting world really knows about us, you know, if a business isn't certified with us, they have a reason, you know, why they didn't want to. And usually it comes down to the accountability of it. Um, you know, I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus by naming them, But we've talked to them. Um, if there's a hunting brand out there that's big and been around, we've had a conversation, and they ultimately decided that 1% of gross sales was more than they wanted to be giving out or be accountable to, to someone else. So in the hunting world, we're pretty well known. In the angling world, we're just starting to be understood, which is weird for me because that's my alma mater. Fishing is— I grew up hunting too, but Fishing's my— that's what I love. Um, so we're slowly getting into that world. Their margins are different, how they give is different. It's, it's, it's a little more nuanced, um, than in, in the, in the hunting world. Also, they're not having to defend themselves to the public quite as much as hunters are. Um, you know, Finding Nemo, the bad guys are scuba divers, scuba divers, not anglers. You know, as opposed to with Bambi where, you know, the bad guys are they call them hunters, but from all intents and purposes, they were poaching, you know, if you're shooting a doe with fawns.

Yeah.

So, you know, they're not having to deal with that. So we're moving slowly into the fishing world, but then really outside of that, we would really love folks who are bird watchers and, you know, arborists. Actually, we have a certified arborist company right now. Folks who, you know, care about their local trails, they care about local outdoor spaces for kids and families to be able to get out to and things like that. And we're slowly gaining more members on that front. And what we really want to see is where someone can go to any store and they can pick what brands they're buying based on whether or not it has the 2% logo on it.

Ah, yeah.

If you go to your local Target, your local grocery store, does it have the 2% logo on it? And right now in many stores, that is an option. If you go to Shields, you can look for that 2% logo on your gear. You can look for it on your coffee. You can look for it on your, on your packaged meals and stuff for in the backcountry. It's— we're getting some saturation in the outdoor space now. And so folks can make those purchasing decisions and support the businesses that truly are giving back and put their money where their marketing mouths are.

Yeah, no, that's great. I want to revisit hunting versus fishing. Like what you're saying as far as, you know, some people, they're all about fishing or they're fine with that, but then they have a problem with hunting. Or some people are just into hunting but not necessarily into fishing. That's interesting to me because typically, unless someone is poaching, when they're hunting, it's very specifically for the meat, you know?

Right.

You know, there's the trophy aspect as well. Nothing wrong with that. But usually they're still keeping the meat or donating it and things like that. So which, which is great. Um, but fishing, on the other hand, there's so many people, it's catch and release. And I've read studies where up to 30% of every fish that's caught and released actually ends up dying. So it seems like from a conservation standpoint and just protecting the species, that the sport of fishing where you're just catching it and releasing it, that's not necessarily a good thing. And that's actually hurting the, the amount of fish that we have in our streams and waterways. Can you— yeah, can you talk about that a little bit and just your thoughts? Yeah, and it—

I mean, So I, I live right outside of Bozeman, Montana, which, you know, is where River Runs Through It was filmed and stuff. So in the '90s, a bunch of people moved here for the fishing. And I mean, I've fished where all those pictures of Brad Pitt, you know, fishing and stuff. I've fished those same holes. So around here, once you start talking about catch and release, you know, you better check your tires before you leave the parking lot.

Mm-hmm.

Because there are folks who are ardently for it, and you're a— you're an animal, you know, if you're out there bonking Um, I grew up bonking because, you know, I had to eat. I also didn't grow up trout fishing. My family did, uh, help with some trout hatchery stuff and stuff, but I was, I was more walleye, muskie, uh, panfish. So, you know, with the exception of the muskies, we'd only keep one a year, um, you know, just to keep things kosher and keep the fishery, you know, uh, active. Uh, those were the only, only fish I grew up doing catch and release on. Unless they were outside of slot limits or whatever. Um, but you're right, within the trout, especially trout and salmon, you know, anything in the, in the trout and salmonoid families, uh, when you go and take them out of the water and then put them back in, yeah, their mortality rate is high. And there are folks who will argue that all day long. There are guides who will argue that. They'll be like, I catch the same fish, you know, Albira, we turn the corner, she's always there, we've caught her for 15 years. And that may be the case, uh, and that is the case in some instances. But, you know, they're talking about the 2/3 that aren't dying, not the 1/3 that is dying.

Right.

And the, the data is pretty damning on that front. So, you know, when it comes to stuff like that, that's where, you know, in hunting we've learned that we kind of have to— and I say we've learned, elements of the hunting world have learned We need to be more flexible, you know, when it comes to ethics, when it comes to habitat. So like, we now know if you're baiting deer with huge piles of corn in Wisconsin, odds are they're going to get chronic wasting disease and your herd's gonna, you know. So most folks have gotten on board with, hey, we're not going to do that anymore because we want to be able, you know, we want our kids to be able to hunt them and stuff. But you still have a few chuckleheads out there, you know, bringing the dump truck over. You know, from the grain mill. Um, and I might know some of those people. Um, I think the, the, uh, what's it called, 27 years or something like that, they're, they're outside their, their liability for it. But, uh, the angling world is just starting to have to learn a lot of these things. Uh, here in, here in Montana, a big discussion is between Uh, native species of fish and non-native species. As our rivers warm, uh, which they've been getting warmer and warmer and warmer, a lot of these native trout do not like that. They cannot survive in it. And so folks are playing bucket biology and dumping all kinds of fish in the rivers. Um, the little section I live by here, it's about a mile from me, uh, when I first moved to the area, it was pretty rare to see a big carp. uh, this far upstream, up from the Missouri on the Gallatin River. Now I see, you know, 2 and 3 feet long carp, um, in an area that used to be too cold, uh, for them to do a full life cycle year-round. So, you know, we've got changes like that that the angling world, they're having to adapt to. And, you know, the reality of the climate changing and warming, especially in mountain areas, is really making folks have to understand these things. And some of them are taking some pages from the hunting world and learning to adapt, and others are being sticks in the mud and slowing things down a little bit. So it's a challenge.

Yeah, it seems like it for sure. And do you think that the only way to help fix this, if you will, is just more education and just bringing attention to it?

Um, I used to think that that would do the bulk of it, and it still does a decent share of the job. You know, you have to have the education out there so people know where to go when the poo hits the fan. Unfortunately, it often takes that fan-hitting moment to shake enough folks loose from, well, this is how we've always done things, which is one of the most dangerous things in business or in anything you do, you know, to be saying.

Definitely.

Um, unfortunately, it usually takes losing something special, and that rarely happens quickly. You know, we look at like the salmon fisheries in the Pacific Northwest with the dams and everything going up on the Snake River, and they're reporting lower and lower and lower salmon runs every year. Now folks are getting desperate about it, when in reality people were tooting the horn about this and, and trying to pump the brakes, you know, before I was born. So, you know, within my lifetime now, finally the angling community has said, no, we actually really care about this. We're going to fight for what we care about. Uh, but it took, you know, my whole life basically for that to saturate and for them to really lose to such a degree for them to feel the need to, uh, join together and act.

And almost getting to a point of no return there, right?

Right. You know, there are several case studies of, you know, rivers that have rebounded from major changes being made. But when it comes to human development, it's nearly impossible to repair. Up in Hells Canyon on the border of Idaho and Washington and Oregon, back in the, I want to say, 1960s, Yeah, it would have been early 1960s. A guy who I now know here in the— in Montana, he's in his, in his, uh, 80s now. Um, he was doing his, his grad research there in Hells Canyon on the recent introduction of smallmouth bass. At the time, there were just a few being sighted. And so he was down in there in scuba gear and stuff, again, back in the '60s, and watching them gulp up all these eggs. just eating eggs all day long and what they were doing to the, to the native, uh, you know, salmonoids that were there. And, and people were reporting, we're not catching as many. He was blowing the whistle on that way back then, but a lot of folks were like, oh, but, but smallmouth are so much fun to catch, and there's this, this fishery's so robust, both can coexist. Now you go. And I mean, I sat on, I sat on a shore while we were out there sturgeon fishing, and I caught like 100 smallmouth In an hour, and they're all tiny because they're not able to, you know, I mean, I think the biggest one I caught was maybe, maybe 3 pounds, um, and it was, it had another smallmouth in its belly. Um, you know, people don't like the data when it says you can't have fun, uh, in the way you want to have fun. And unfortunately, that is a huge chunk of what conservation is. Conservation is saying either slow down or we really shouldn't do things that way. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's basically telling someone no so that later someone else can have a yes. A lot of conservation work is showing up, volunteering for, you know, slowing things down on the human impact so that the next humans that, you know, the next generation that comes after us has some modicum of a, uh, you know, opportunity as we've had.

So almost like a generational delayed gratification.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, prime example, where I'm from in northern Wisconsin, I actually have a picture in a book down here of my great-great-great-aunt, uh, holding the last known picture of a raghorn bull elk, uh, holding its head. She was camp cook for a logging camp in Boulder Junction. Wisconsin. She's holding up, you know, this head, black and white photo. Um, according to the state of Wisconsin, that's the last known bull in, in Wisconsin that was, that was native to Wisconsin. This is in like the 1880s. And when I was a kid, I went into the hunting cabin with my family. Cabin's a strong word— 4 walls, roof, bunk beds.

Yeah.

Um, draft and bears and squirrels breaking in all the time. Um, but sitting in there was a magazine, and in it, it talked about this reintroduction of elk in Wisconsin and that they had been native to Wisconsin, that people used to hear bugles and loons, uh, when they were there. Trappers and loggers would hear the loons and the elk calling back and forth to each other during the rut.

Amazing.

And that they— the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation was reintroducing them. And I just thought that was so cool. My dad was like, yeah, when you're my age, uh, they'll probably have a hunt for it by that point. Sure enough, I'm the age he was then, and they just had their first hunt a couple years ago. But the folks who volunteered every spring to do the calf surveys— so a calf survey is you go out, you do like a grid walk, like you're looking for a lost kid or a lost dog or something. You go through the woods and you look to count the calves that are out there, the elk calves, and it gives you an idea of what the survival rate was over the winter for the entire elk herd. A lot of the folks who did that are now dead and gone. A lot of the people who started that knew they would never get to hunt an elk in Wisconsin, but that they were going to go out and help so that future generations could hear bugles and loons going back and forth. And now that is the case, and the herd is robust. And now they're talking about, you know, expanding more of its— of the native range. of the herd. Um, I, I, um, or sorry, the reintroduced range of the herd. This last fall, I had the opportunity, uh, in Grand Teton National Park to hear elk bugling and loons calling back to them.

Oh wow.

And let me tell you, it is— you can see where they get the wendigo stories and stuff like that, of monsters, you know, in the, in the woods. It is the coolest thing to have this elk be on shore calling out and the loon calling back. But that only happens if we all do the work we need to do.

Sure. A couple of things on that. So with, with our company, with Rewild Gear, we came up with the name, the whole rewilding concept of reintroducing the wolves into Yellowstone and how that affected the entire ecosystem, you know, which I find just fascinating. And that's the goal is to help humans to do that as well, to get back into nature and spend more time there and kind of get away from technology and our day-to-day lives and just Disconnect from all those things that are making up the majority of our day and reconnect with nature so we can kind of reinvigorate ourselves. So when we talk about rewilding in general, when it comes to animal species, like you mentioned, that's happening with the elk population. So in my home state of Kentucky, they started doing that in the late '90s, I believe. And so now they have a thriving herd and there's a lottery draw to get to hunt, which I still have never drawn yet. Which anybody that's listening that might have an in there, please let me know and pass my name along because I really want to hunt elk in Kentucky. But we're seeing that in so many different locations now. But there's also on the flip side of that, and also with the reintroduction of wolves, say, in Colorado and other places, which can be very controversial, you know. So there's— it's not just it's a good thing for all of these animals because the The ecosystem has changed, whether that's, you know, urban sprawl, the landscape, agriculture taking over and things like that. So, you know, there's pros and cons to it. How do you see that as far as the balancing act of should we or should we not reintroduce these? If so, how many? What's the best way to manage that?

So one of the key things that is communicated by folks working directly in this, not folks advocating, Because advocacy groups will just say, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, right? That's their job.

Yes.

Is let's just, let's do it. They're not the ones figuring out the science behind it or any of that. So the ones who are working on the science, the biologists that I speak with about these things, we have one biologist on our board. She's actually working up on the island of Svalbard right now, up in the Arctic Circle, north of Norway.

Wow.

With caribou. When I was talking to her about these things and some of the other biologists within our membership, they always talk about, you know, you have to start at the fundamentals. And we learned this in Hunter's Ed here in Montana. It's in many states too where they talk about carrying capacity. What is the capacity of a section of land to hold certain species? So how much land is required to feed whatever the species is and whatever that species might eat? So is there enough, uh, for that food source? So once you start moving up the food chain into the predator space, you naturally are looking at bigger and bigger and bigger swaths of land required so that they can have food in a natural way and not in a dumpster diving kind of way. Or, you know, going after cattle, things like that. Um, and with cattle being so docile and dumb, any, any smart predator is going to go after that.

As opposed to bison, which we had, you know, 30 million of.

For the most part. I mean, you look at the landscape and where bison are now versus where they were. Um, and, and if you, and if you studied Anything about where they were, the extent of bison. Why is the Mississippi River Delta so lush? Well, it's because millions upon millions of bison died there over thousands and thousands and thousands of years and flooded in there. That's why it's so damn good for growing. There's entire buffalo graveyards from natural causes, not just human-caused. You know, in many parts of the state. I live not that far from an old human-caused one, a buffalo jump, where the tribes would rally for part of the year when the buffalo would move into the area and then push them off the cliff. And you can still find buffalo bones and stuff in there from time to time.

Wow.

They were everywhere. So now we have cattle, you know, in a lot of the country. And we have, you know, a lot of land used just for making food. for cattle. If you look at any of the land use maps and all of this stuff, if anyone geeks out on maps, there's several websites that break down how much of the land is used for growing crops for humans, how much is used for growing crops for cattle and produce and whatnot, or sorry, poultry and things like that. So, when you look at that and you consider that it's not a homogenous, you know, it's spread pretty disparately across the country where stuff is being grown, where habitat has been chopped up. When you start looking at that, you realize you really can't count a lot of our private lands as habitat for predators because what's there isn't— they can't eat it. Or they're going to get shot. You know, the shoot, shovel, shut up will win every day in a community that makes its money off of the landscape. And I mean, I've, I've met wardens from other states who have apologized to different people, you know, drinks around the campfire, and they're like, I'm so sorry, I knew there was poaching going on and I didn't stop. You know, it's, it's a very complex social issue. But when the biologists look at it, they look at, okay, the fundamentals, carrying capacity. Can we put these wolves or this grizz that's a problem grizz, do we have a place that we can put them where they're not going to have this easier food source? These animals evolved to eat and sleep and breed. Like, that's, that's their shtick. And if any of those are being messed with, They're going to find an easier way around it, and agriculture makes it super easy for them, and so does human development. So in looking at something like Colorado, there are sections of Colorado that wolves have, you know, been able to move into and make a decent life for themselves. There are sections of Colorado big enough where they should be fine. But where everyone's talking about are the obvious areas where they won't be. Wolves have been blamed here in Montana for destroying our elk hunting opportunities. Okay, I've had one interaction with wolves destroying my elk hunting opportunity. One time I went, I was archery hunting just outside of Yellowstone. I put the elk herd to bed. You know, when you figure out where they are, you're going to get after them early in the morning. Set up my tent. At about 2 in the morning, I start hearing just horrible sounds right outside my tent, just gurgling. I don't want to gross out any listeners or anything. It was, it was graphic what I was hearing outside as a wolf pack tore into the elk herd.

Wow.

And they were all running around. If I hadn't set my tent, my little bivy, in between some aspens, I probably would have been trampled. In the, in the dark. And all I had was my bow and some bear spray. And I zipped open the tent just to look outside, you know, super tough about it and everything, like literally just like one little eye looking outside the tent. And I just see these shadows going real close to the ground, moving real fast. And the elks— the elk herd, not the elks, but the elk herd— they're just running around. And screeching. And I see one of the shadows jump onto a cow, and they're shaking and running. And I mean, the sounds that were being made were just— it was out of a Tarantino film or a Saw film or something like that. It was, it was bad. So I didn't sleep anymore. Um, eventually further away, got up in the morning, and there is hair and blood everywhere. But I couldn't find a kill. Like, the last thing I wanted was to stumble up on a wolf pack eating anything, you know. Didn't find a kill anywhere, um, but I did see the elk herd. They were down on private land eating alfalfa like nothing had ever happened. Uh, same bull I had been chasing the day before, he's down there just, you know.

And nothing you can do about it.

Yeah, yeah, there's— it's, it's over, you know. I go home now. Yeah. Um, that was the one time. I know, I know in parts of the country, you know, people have seen this on the regular, especially like Idaho. The reality is when we look at what we did to our elk herds, we were very successful. We, we, you know, job one was get them back from the brink. We did that. Now we're getting to the more challenging conversations of, all right, we need a healthy ecosystem. We can't really depend on hunters 100% to have that be there. It doesn't fit the food web perfectly. Um, we also have, you know, other predators on the landscape that need to be considered, like grizzly and black bear.

Um, mountain lion too, I'm sure.

Mountain lion in, in a big way. And there's different philosophies within the hunting world on that. And, you know, there's— if you look at the 2 extremes, you've got one side that says, let's make it as close to what it was pre-colonization, you know, pre, you know, white Europeans like us coming in and, you know, changing the landscape, um, and getting rid of all the predators so that we can raise cattle, getting rid of all these different things. Um, there's, there's that one end of things, and then there's the, I must have dominion over the land. Other side of things. No competition from predators. Predators are good for rugs and that's about it kind of mindset. And we are living out that big battle right now. And that's when you start to get into the sociology of it instead of the biology. And that's when you end up with a lot of ballot initiatives. So, um, you know, me personally, I don't like seeing stuff like reintroductions being put on ballots. I'd rather see the biologists running it because then it's science-based, and then the argument is science-based, not, oh well, the people in the city want it. That's, that's the argument that you hear from anyone who's against it, is people who don't understand, they want it. Um, it's a great— And that's where there's real danger with ballot initiatives and, and whatnot. Um, they have their purpose from time to time, but we call it ballot biology, you know, out here where, um, You can either— if you can get enough signatures, you can change the landscape. Uh, can be for better, can be for worse. Um, if you get elected, you can change the landscape. That's almost always for worse. Um, you know, uh, so—

Follow the money trail.

Yeah, yeah. So that's where, you know, we would really like to see as an organization— we stay out of politics. We also stay out of, you know, most of the, the the conservation policies and things like that. We let other organizations carry the torch because we, you know, we keep a big tent. We have people on all ends of the political spectrum within our membership giving to what they care for. But when it comes to stuff like ballot biology, bucket biology, we side with the biologists who are like, dangerous, dangerous, dangerous, because next thing you know, we're setting these animals up for failure, and that ultimately leads to long-term, uh, cultural ramifications that are not positive for the wildlife that the folks doing the ballot biology are ultimately wanting. So it's very complicated and can get very messy.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. All that said, um, in your opinion— well, 2 questions here. What's the biggest need in conservation today, and how can normal everyday people that aren't necessarily, you know, hunters or fishers, that are not in the outdoor space, how can they make a difference?

Uh, biggest need is for the public to be engaged. Uh, right now, you know, it's, you know, the 80/20 rule of 20% of people doing 80% of the work. When it comes to wildlife conservation, it's more like 99 and 1. 1% of the people doing 99% of the work and the fundraising. Hunters for a long time have hidden behind the, well, I buy a tag and I pay taxes on this stuff, therefore I'm a conservationist. And we like to say, you know, if paying a tax that first off you didn't choose to pay, paying a tax, if that makes you a conservationist, then my property tax here makes me a firefighter, a police officer, A local utilities guy and an elementary school teacher, because that's what my taxes go to. Um, it's a cop-out from actually getting involved. And we need more than just the hunting world and the angling world showing up when stuff's about to be taken from them or changed. We need them showing up when things are going seemingly pretty well. Um, It's it's a war of attrition that we're in right now, and the focus unfortunately has been on well they're trying to take our rights, you know, and that's that's where a lot of folks focus their energy is you're gonna take something from me. They wouldn't be going to take it if they saw value in what you did, and our marketing around I hunt therefore I'm a conservationist has not worked. If it had. This battle would not be the way that it is. The, the paradigm would have shifted. We were over a decade into organizations, businesses, industries saying hunting is conservation, therefore accept us for that. And it hasn't worked with the general public. It's worked with a tiny percentage of them, but it has catalyzed the antis to such a point that it's, it's just noise. for the majority of the public. What they need to see instead is hunters going out, anglers going out, and working on the landscape. And the general public will then join in. It's one thing to ask someone to join in into conservation when it's buying a tag, buying firearms, and going in and killing Bambi. You know, that's, that's a big ask to ask someone to go into that lifestyle. That said, you know, hunter numbers are actually way up. Percentage of the population is down, But hunter numbers are up, angler numbers are way up, but it's not showing on the landscape yet. We need the average person volunteering their time and/or dollars every year to taking care of the landscape because what we've been doing hasn't been enough. If hunting and angling excise taxes were enough, we wouldn't have all these conservation groups. The Pittman-Robertson Act went into effect in the 1930s, which is 11% tax on all Firearms, ammunition, archery equipment, and then hunting licenses. Within the next couple years, multiple conservation organizations were started to try to get work done because they realized the excise tax would never be enough. And every year there's a new conservation group on the national scale starting because we have national-scale problems. And that's just here in the States. When we talk to our members overseas, where they don't have excise taxes, personal buy-in is the only way stuff gets done. Even up in Canada, when we talk to our Canadian members up there, they don't have these huge, huge, you know, multi-billion dollar tax programs to put towards wildlife every year coming from hunting and angling. So they have to raise a lot of those dollars themselves, people who care about species. So the biggest thing for conservation Getting out and proving it. If you care about it, quit saying it on social media. Your arguments with your uncles and stuff on Facebook aren't doing any good. Go out and show it, and you'd be surprised at what kind of impact you can make in your community and your local ecosystem.

Great points, Jared. Let's, uh, talk a little bit about, um, about you and some of your favorite outdoor activities. You already mentioned fishing, uh, but what Would you say that that's kind of your favorite thing to do in the outdoors?

Uh, it's, it's up there. Um, and, and not, you know, just fishing to fish. I've got a weird thing where I like to fish in weird places for weird things. Uh, right now the only fish I've caught in Alaska— I was up there on a work trip, I caught a stickleback minnow with my hat. Uh, you know, so I don't know what that is. It's a tiny little minnow. Uh, when people are like, oh, you went fishing in Alaska? Like, well, it was, it was March, you know, there was like nowhere to go. Yeah, so I like to, you know, fish for weird fish in weird places predominantly, uh, on the fishing side. But, um, uh, backpacking is a big one. Uh, I like just getting out and, and being outdoors and getting to understand the ecology. I love seeing things from forest floor or creek bottom, lake bottom, all the way to whatever's at the top.

Yeah.

Um, and, and anymore, my favorite outdoor activities are when I get to volunteer. And that's, that's not just, you know, me wearing the shirt and the hat for 2% right now. Um, when I get to volunteer on a Goat Alliance survey, uh, you know, get to count, you know, through binoculars what's up on the mountain, or when I get to go and pull fence that's been impeding a migration route or something like that, you leave that activity in the outdoors that much more enriched knowing you just made things better not only for the landscape but for the people who get to enjoy it after you. So that's way up there for me. Love backpacking, uh, love kayaking, anything on the water, uh, I'm, I'm addicted to just because of where I grew up.

Sure.

Um, yeah, I, I hunt very little, uh, for how much in the hunting world, uh, I'm kind of situated. Last year, I, aside from the Rocky or the, the mountain goat cull in Grand Teton, I only hunted 2 days myself.

Oh, wow. So yeah, what's the biggest life lesson the nature of the outdoors has taught you personally? Patience.

Um, absolutely patience. I, I grew up ice fishing, um, which is a, a, a lesson in patience, but I also grew up muskie fishing, uh, which if anyone's familiar with the muskie, uh, it's called the fish of 10,000 casts. Uh, in my case, I, I was fortunate. I grew up on a lake, uh, where it was kind of a fishery form, a tiny little lake. It was more of a mud hole. I think at its deepest it's about 12 feet, um, but it's about a mile long. And if you don't catch a muskie out there, uh, during a day of fishing, you're doing something wrong. So I grew up, you know, with extra opportunity with that. But sitting in ground blinds, um, you know, sitting in tree stands— patience, patience, patience— and how it'll pay off. was a big part of my upbringing in the outdoors. And still today, if I have to work through something or make a quick decision on something, I usually go outside to go and kind of reorient before I do that.

It's amazing how grounding just being outside and in our natural surroundings can be. Yeah.

Yeah.

I've experienced the same thing myself.

Yeah.

Jared, tell me a story about your favorite, your all-time favorite outdoor adventure. Something that you've experienced, and maybe, maybe it's one that you would never want to repeat, um, or one that was just so amazing that you would definitely want to repeat it.

This is a hard one.

If you have one.

This is a hard one. Um, it's, it's one of these 3. Uh, one of my fondest memories was playing like Old MacDonald on a turkey call with my grandpa and calling in the biggest tom I've still ever seen, uh, by us just screwing around making weird noises. I was, I was 10. And that's— it's still a precious memory for me. I ended up hunting in South America when I was visiting some other grandparents. I've shot a broc deer down there, like a bush deer. They're like a small little dog, and both males and females grow these tiny little horns. It was October when I shot what I thought was a buck because it had horns sticking up. And again, like, this thing weighs like 40 pounds. Um, it was a doe. And if you know anything about northern and southern hemispheres, their seasons are flipped. So it was spring for them. And I was only 15 and got to help clean the doe and discovered there was another deer inside of it.

Oh.

Which is not something you normally experience, uh, as a hunter. Oh. We also had jaguars going around. The tapir were squealing or whistling out in the woods. There was a snake that came after, after I shot it. It landed in the water and I started to pull it up and the snake came through. It was a whole thing.

Wow.

That's up there. But my most recent, most pressing one, uh, memory was last fall doing that Rocky Mountain goat cull in Grand Teton National Park. Uh, we had to— it was a volunteer thing. Um, anyone unfamiliar with it, basically the goats had been introduced outside the park in the '70s as a hunting tag revenue opportunity by Wyoming Fish and Game, and they started migrating into the Tetons, which has one of the oldest and most at-risk genetically diverse bighorn sheep populations in the world. Uh, there used to be huge— people used to— it used to be like a major poaching issue, was people would sneak into the park Even in the '90s, going after these huge bighorn sheep in there that were very genetically unique because it's an island mountain range. And now they've been virtually wiped out by the goats from disease. So the national park is wiping out all the goats in the park. They started with helicopters. People didn't like that. But the reality of the situation is it's the safest way to do it. And we volunteered. We had signed up to see what it was like. It was the weirdest volunteer opportunity. You know, I'm gonna volunteer to go shoot billies, nannies, and potentially kids up on the side of the mountain. Wow. Yeah, but the purpose was to save the bighorn sheep. So, you know, and these goats, no one wanted them. Uh, no one would— no other national park wanted them because they're all diseased. Uh, everyone that they found had some form of disease that could be transferred to other wildlife. Uh, nobody wanted them because they had nowhere to put them, you know, all these different things. No zoos wanted them, no, no nothing. So the park said, all right, we're gonna do helicopters. That went on the news. They're like, they're shooting them with machine guns. And, uh, you know, no one liked that image of this iconic species getting blasted on the side of a mountain. Not great optics, right? So they said, all right, we'll have hunters come in. So we volunteered for that. We had a team of 2 percenters. We had 2 board members and then myself, and then Calvin, our brand coordinator, she came along too. So it was 4 gals, 2 guys on this— or sorry, 3 gals, 2 guys by the time it was all put together on this trip. And because of the grizz and the moose and all that, like, our days would start and end with a mile and a half canoe paddle. across a lake at the base of the mountains. We got to camp in an area no one's allowed to camp. We're carrying rifles, uh, through a national park, you know, wearing orange and stuff. Um, and over the course of it, we had— let's see, we had a grizz run in. A grizz, uh, bluff charged one of our board members on the trip, Jess Johnson. The next day, uh, we ended up, uh, shoot— or no, the next day she ended up like nearly getting stranded out in the middle of the lake. Because of the winds and stuff, and her arms were so sore from cutting trail because one of our team members rolled their ankle and had to be hobbled out through this just thick— it was like trying to climb through toothpicks.

I know.

Up verticals and stuff. So, she nearly died from that. And then, the next day, she was nearly trampled by a moose, which we ended up bear spraying. Got bear sprayed twice, and then everyone's all covered in the bear spray, so we're all jumping in the river trying to get it off of ourselves. We did end up shooting at a nanny, but missing because of the steep angle. And we had to hunt with only copper, which I normally try to do anyway, but its ballistics are very different at a steep, steep angle, and we hadn't been able to practice that. And we ended up missing, but the shot report caused a rock slide that nearly crushed her on that day too.

That was not her day or week.

Yeah, and this was the one where I got to hear the elk bugling across to the loons and stuff going back and forth. And every night I'd go for a swim just to wash off in the lake. And under the— it was a full moon, and under the moonlight you could see trout fins because they were in— the rainbows were coming up to shore that time of year. So I'd be underwater in the moonlight at the base of Mount Moran and just seeing trout swimming around all around me and stuff. Epic. Every single day was epic, and it's going to go down as one of my favorite outdoor adventures ever.

That's a great story. Wow, great. Jared, uh, what outdoor gear or equipment do you consider essential, like no matter what you're doing, that you always take with you?

Always, always a headlamp is with me because you never know what's going to happen. Um, I've learned the hard way. On that one, I'm ashamed of how many times it took with that lesson for me to take it home. So a headlamp with enough battery to go all night is an always. A fire starter is an always, especially out here. Most of our deaths or major, you know, issues are from falls or from hypothermia. Those are where the majority of deaths in Montana come in the backcountry. So Those 2 things are more or less covered by that. Decent traction, so good footwear is way up there for me. That said, I own some pretty old boots, but I know them, my feet know them, and I know how to get around in them. Being comfortable in what you have out there is more important than having something fancy. So I tend to err on the side of repair instead of replace. Once I'm comfortable with some gear. So fire starters, headlamps are big up there. I always have a multi-tool with me because again, you don't know what's going to happen. If I'm going out for a day hike, I still bring stuff like paracord, um, you know, just, just in case, because I've had a bad experience more than once. Um, and around here, bear spray, always. I've sprayed 2 grizz Since moving out here in 2 different areas of the state. And I'm very glad I had bear spray, or we probably wouldn't be talking right now.

Good point. If I were to ask you to do an everyday carry dump right now, what would be in your pocket?

Let's see here. I got a— they're not in my pockets right now because I'm at home. But I have a Gerber multi-tool that goes with me everywhere. And I've had for 8, 9 years now. That is always with me. Let's see here. I've— I usually take a hunting knife with me. So if I'm going out on a hunt, I'm taking a hunting knife that will either stay sharp through the entire process, or, you know, I can resharpen out there. In that, in that pack would definitely definitely be a backup battery for my phone, uh, because like anyone else, I'm, I'm using GPS and stuff, uh, more than using a compass. That said, I did have mine fail on me this last year, and the skills of knowing how to navigate by the stars was kind of a big deal, uh, for bringing my mule out this last, this last—

I'll bet.

So, uh, but honestly, I don't carry that much, um, as much as I used to. I found That if I wasn't using it every time, or if I wasn't putting it at risk, the weight was more of a burden on me than anything else. More important to me are that my clothes are multifunctional. So pants that can, you know, turn into warm weather pants real quick, a shirt that wicks really, really well and doesn't chafe or stink. Those things, those staples are Just hugely important to me. Having a down jacket or a collapsible rain jacket that packs down really, really small is essential out here. It— you can experience all 4 seasons in any day of any month here in Montana. So my thoughts are more around that. When I worked and lived in the Midwest, I was carrying so many different things because you know what you're getting into, right? So It was, it was much more extensive back then.

Got it. Thanks for that. And since the first product that we are releasing is a knife, I'm curious what hunting knife that you normally carry with you.

Depends. I know that's a horrible answer. But it depends on what I'm doing. So if I'm going fishing, it's, it's probably going to be one of those Rapala fillet knives if I'm going fishing, just because they bend, you know.

Yeah.

And old habits die hard, and I grew up just filleting hundreds of walleye every year with those things. So, um, you know, that little $5 knife goes a long way for me. Otherwise, um, on my hunts, I've got a couple, couple cleaning kits that I've started using just because they're faster when I'm teaching someone else. Um, I'm very rarely on a hunt by myself where I'm just getting to hunt for myself. When I am, then it really depends on what knife happens to be sitting closest on my hunting bench. At that point, working in what I do, you end up being given knives for different things. And I'm still looking for my favorite. I haven't found it yet. So I'm excited for your knife to try it out because I think you're gonna like it. I've tried many and You know, it's funny, I've got a bunch of knives sitting on the shelf right here. And I couldn't tell you which one I prefer more than the others, where with most of my gear, I can, I can tell you exactly what thing I prefer over something else. So that moment's coming.

Got it. What outdoor brands do you think are doing a great job of either their product quality, their positioning, their conservation initiatives, etc.? And they could be 2% certified brands, or maybe not just Just as the, the industry as a whole, who do you think is doing just a fantastic job right now?

Well, I'm really impressed with, with the brands we have that are our members, honestly, because they're being intentional, uh, with, with their involvement. And then on the gear side, those 2 things really play together. Um, if, if someone is really working in the landscape, they're spending more time in the outdoors than just a hunt, than just a fishing trip. They're, they're out there doing more than just setting up trail cameras. Your gear gets very pigeonholed and only capable of certain things when it's, when it's only used for a certain type of activity. And even if it's a mountain hunting kind of thing, like here in Montana, I could hunt prairies and up over 10,000 feet in the same day, you know. And, and what that means is wildly different for the gear. Um, so you could have a lot of nuance in there, but you're still just in that usage when the reality is people want to be able to use their gear all year for different things, or all season for different things. So I look at companies, um, that are really innovating, like with Sitka and their waders for, for duck hunting. Game changer. I, I, I, I've worn all kinds of waders You know, having grown up on the water and, and for a while I was, you know, with my old business I was doing some, uh, contracting down in, you know, the Delta and stuff. Worn all kinds of waders. There's game changers, totally, especially with their repair instead of replace and all of that. Um, huge deal. Uh, another one would be Stone Glacier. Um, when they first got certified with us, they made backpacks. And that was it. Now they make tents, bivvies, um, they make, uh, clothing, uh, and quality, quality high alpine clothing that is intended to be used for lots and lots of different things. I look at First Light and what they've done with wool, um, and that was, that was big for the hunting world to have that kind of wool that's not, you know, scratchy. And so we all grew up with the scratchy, you know, pull it all the way up, weighs 50 pounds, but you better not get wet, you know. Well, that was a game changer. I think of like Seek Outside with their teepees and stove systems. I use— I got one of their teepees as a BHA life member perk several years back, and I camp the hell out of that thing for all different kinds of things. It actually spends a good chunk of the year set up in the backyard when we're not out camping for the kids and the neighborhood kids to, you know, play in and stuff. But their gear is just bomber. One brand that's not certified yet that I'm a big fan of, they're working on their certification and pivoting some of their giving to conservation, is called Vormi. They make a wool blend kind of clothes that like you put on one of their hoodies and it just feels like a normal hoodie, but it's rain resistant. So it's actually a rain jacket too, but it feels like a normal hoodie. And they're big supporters of conservation already and they're coming on board with us. They're innovating in absolutely phenomenal ways. I look at like Argali, some of the work that Brad's doing. I mean, a belt with a sharpener on it. Come on.

I preordered it.

Yeah. That's awesome. You know, there's also like 6 AM Outdoors, another member of ours. He is making stuff like in his house and with his friends and stuff and all these different gear bags and things like that that are specifically built for the ultralight, you know, person, not just hunter. And that's one of the things that you really start to see is when these brands really do innovate, their gear starts being used by people who aren't just hunting and start being used by the broader world. So I would be, you know, as a consumer looking at that, is this gear that I can use outside of hunting season? Because if we're seeing it, you know, outside of hunting season, that means it's got much more you know, life in it than maybe, you know, that heavy, heavy jacket or whatever that we all grew up in and whatnot.

Yeah, that's a great point. Jared, what book or books have had the biggest impact on your life?

Oh, so I'm a, I'm a voracious reader. I'm working on, yeah, 4 right now. I would say these are not in a particular order. There's one called A Brief Candle in the Dark. It is Richard Dawkins' life story, the biologist. He's the guy who came up with the term meme. So the word that we all know for, you know, you see that meme on the Instagrams and whatnot, he created that term, and it's to talk about traits that are passed down within culture. or communicated, you know, within culture. And he was talking about genetics and stuff. He was a genetic biologist, and his life story is just incredible. That was, that was super impactful for me when I was first really getting involved with conservation work and looking at how he positioned himself by just saying yes to opportunities to go and do things. The guy's been all over the world. He's, he's been a professor at Oxford, you know, so. He's had, he's had some, you know, quality life. Uh, another, um, that's been huge for me, uh, in, in forming a critical mindset for especially navigating the politics around conservation and the social end of it. A lot of things that we discussed, you have to have a critical mind to see through the weeds and the noise. Uh, and it's Letters to a Young Contrarian by Christopher Hitchens. Uh, he was— he died, uh, in 20— 2012 or 2013 from cancer. But he was a philosopher, a writer, social dissident to some degree. He was a socialist libertarian, which is a little weird to think about.

That's interesting. Yeah.

By the time he died, he was— that's where he kind of sat, where in his younger days he was full-on Marxist, but he became a little more middle of the road through his life. But in his letters, his book Letters to a Young Contrarian, are him writing to his daughter. as she's growing up, going to college and stuff, and asking him questions about different world issues and how he got involved and his recommendations to her on how to just think critically and don't be a, you know, a brute intellectually, but actually do some good with what you learn. So that's way up there. Thinking of one more. Anything really by Jim Posowitz has been big for me. Um, he just died last year. Uh, the book Beyond Fair Chase is in 28 states' hunter education curriculums. Uh, he wrote that. He was really the, the champion of the last century, the, the key champion for fair chase practices in the hunting world and for the, uh, hunters to be politically savvy Um, and also, uh, you know, educated on the ecological issues, um, and addressing— uh, there's, there's a book he has called Taking a Bullet for Conservation. It talks about Theodore Roosevelt when he got shot. Um, he got shot because of some of his ideas about protecting land and having national forests and things like that. That's why he got shot in Milwaukee. Uh, by that guy. And then of course he gave that speech and stuff, and he had the Bull Moose Party that he was starting up. Um, obviously TR's been over-romanticized, and he was by no means a perfect individual if you've read or listened to any of his—

Definitely not.

Yeah, dude had some problems. Abandoning your daughter, not cool, man. Um, nope. And a bunch of the other stuff, you know, not good. But some of it was, you know, certainly the times, and it's hard to judge anyone from a different time period. But what he talks about is how this was important to him, and he saw it as something that lived beyond him. And that's what he— you know, you get to a point in your life where you start thinking legacy, and he was willing to get shot instead of trying to shoot other people over it. And that mindset, uh, Jim embodied. He made himself be the cannon fodder instead of the general public when it came to conservation issues. I personally have benefited from some of the work he did. In the 1970s, they were going to put a dam up just outside of Livingston at the head of Paradise Valley, which is just a gorgeous, gorgeous valley outside of Yellowstone. Huge elk herds, huge muley herds. You name the species that's in Montana, they live adjacent or in it. And they were gonna put a hydroelectric dam in there and just flood it. So all the ranches were gonna go away, all the, all the, you know, habitat. And he fought it. He ended up losing his job over it. As did a bunch of his friends who were working with him. But the story is, it actually won our Conservation Media Award last year. Randy Newberg's crew made a film about it with Jim before he passed, talking about how they got a bourbon company to come up and do a whole press release with like the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Hustler Magazine actually came up too.

Wow.

And Jim liked to joke that he checked every issue looking for the article and never found it. Um, but they, uh, they stopped—

Research job there.

Yeah, they stopped the dam from going in, as well as all the ones that were going to go downstream down the Yellowstone. So the Yellowstone is the longest undammed river in the U.S. now, and because of that, its ecology has been really robust. And also, I shot my first elk, uh, in a spot that would have been below the water line. back in 2015, '16. I should know that date. That shows you where hunting's less important for me. But yeah, where I shot it would have been below the watermark. So, you know, that's stories like that. I love books that tell stories of people who gave their best chance, you know. And, and Posowitz's last book was called My Best Shot. He tells his life story of what he did and the people who were involved. I'm very passionate about people not forgetting who sacrificed. One of the volunteer things I do here in the state is I'm on a review committee for the Montana Outdoor Hall of Fame. There are 2 states that have outdoor Hall of Fames, Montana and Wyoming. We think they should be in all 50 states. It's an— it's a thing we've looked at, uh, 2% maybe helping happen. across the U.S., but it's a Hall of Fame for the people who made a massive impact on that state's ecology, uh, for future generations and for the wildlife that inhabited before and hopefully will after us. And, uh, Jim's family actually helped start the one here in Montana, uh, and it— I volunteer on that, uh, when it comes up every 2 years. And, you know, we get to hear these stories of people who gave Who, you know, who took out second mortgages to buy land, uh, and then put it into the public trust. Um, we, we hear stories of folks who like literally sold their ranch just to make sure that when they died that, that whole property would be turned into, you know, a wildlife area with people able to come and interact and things like that. Or people losing their jobs. I mean, losing their entire careers Over, you know, wildlife issues, uh, for the sake of other people, not themselves. And, uh, those stories need to be remembered so that we can learn from them and, and have, have the truth of, of what's happened so that we can make educated, responsible decisions moving forward.

Yeah, that's a great point. Jared, do you have a favorite podcast that you listen to regularly?

Um, I'm really bad about that, actually. So I'm normally, unless I'm recording with someone like this, I'm normally on the phone All day. Uh, but the one time that I get to listen to podcasts, uh, because even when I'm driving somewhere, I'm rarely alone. So I'm usually doing like a working drive or I'm with my family. Um, so when I do get to listen is when I'm like mowing the lawn or working in the yard. Uh, and there are a few that are up there for me, but I honestly, I don't really listen to hunting podcasts. Um, which I get flack for. Anytime I mention that, especially because we have multiple certified ones, and nearly every business member now has one. So I listen to them from time to time. But you know, we have the Average Conservationist podcast that 2% helps run that every 2% member gets to go on. I love that because I get to hear everyone's stories on how they give back. That's the whole purpose of that podcast is for 2 percenters to tell their story, personal stories of how they give back. We say it's average people. Doing extraordinary things for wildlife. It's always positive. So I like that one. I like Making Sense with Sam Harris. It's more philosophy than anything. Most of what I listen to and read is actually outside of the hunting space and conservation space. It was a recommendation given to me by— well, Jim was one of them. Posowitz was one of the ones who gave this recommendation. Anytime I I got to meet an old-timer who made a career about, you know, with wildlife. I've made a point to ask them, you know, their opinions on different things while they still have their opinions to give, you know. And, and one of the things that many of them said was be multi-dimensional. If you want to work with the general public, you can't pigeonhole your input, or your output will be just as boring as what you put in. And, you know, hunting and gear are passions of mine. huge, huge passions. I'm a gear nut. My garage, my house, there's gear hanging everywhere. I used to write reviews for Backpacker Magazine on stuff, right? So, like, it's a big deal for me. That said, what I listen to is trying to understand the overall culture better. So, Sam Harris's Making Sense is pretty good. He has a pretty moderate political view, which keeps things more on the science of what's going on in the social space. I would have to say that's way up there. And then I've got some guilty pleasure podcasts like Wisecrack's stuff. Anything by Wisecrack is just ridiculous and wonderful. They do movie reviews and they're just stupid, but they're stupid good fun. And I think we all need a bit more fun in our lives. And if I'm having a rough day, I'll pop one of those on and listen to them review the most recent season of South Park, and it's hilarious.

South Park never gets old.

Really highbrow, you know, but—

Exactly. Jared, this has been a lot of fun. Great, great chatting with you. What is one closing piece of advice that you would give to our audience or anyone that's listening to the show?

Get out and do more. You know, we've all been stuck inside for this last year. Most of us have, you know, to most, you know, to any real degree. It was seen as a horrible thing by, I think, most of us, you know, to be isolated. Humans aren't built for that. What it also gave, though, is an opportunity for people to pivot how they spend their time, um, and to make getting involved with the landscape more of our lives than what it's been in the past. So much time is wasted Complaining. You know, the average person spends minimum of three hours on social media a day, and the bulk of what they do is complaining in the comments section. You know, yeah. When in reality, or posting up fake versions of their life, you know, only showing the good stuff. The reality is you can make it be a lot more good stuff and do some real good by getting out and doing something. And that could be as simple as going out and. just walking your local beach or trail with a trash bag, you're gonna feel real damn good after it and feel like you earned that beer, you know, at the end of it after you've done that.

Yeah.

You know, start there. Start just next time you go outside, make it, make it be part of your week. At least one day a week, you go out and you go to one of your favorite spots at minimum, you know, once a week. And when you do that, Go with an eye for improving that space. You'll not only be more grounded, more refreshed, reoriented as to, you know, your personal whys in life and everything, but you'll come back with a sense of accomplishment of it. From there, I would encourage everyone to find a conservation group that works on things that they care about and get saturated in that culture, whether it's, it's people working on waterways, public lands, species-specific, get saturated in what they're doing. And yeah, there's going to be some political noise in there, you know, that you'll have to deal with, but you'll find within those groups like-minded folks who enjoy a lot of the same things as you, uh, but also have a common passion as you. And those friendships last a lifetime. When, when you make a friendship with someone who cares about the same landscape, who cares about the same species as you, The same recreation opportunities being available to others. Those are the folks you want in your life. And, you know, the shutdown and everything has given us an opportunity, as things are opening up right now, to make some of these really positive life changes that will— I mean, all the studies show they'll lengthen your life, they'll lower your chances of disease, they'll, you know, all these good things, but also you're gonna feel better. And it'll be a healing balm for you in many ways for what the last year has been.

That's great advice. Quick story just about that as far as getting involved and just doing something with that trash. So over last weekend, I was at my hunting cabin back in Kentucky where I've got acreage and stuff where we always have a big hunt every year, the opening of rifle season. And so down at the river bottoms, there was some flooding probably a couple of weeks before, and there was just so much trash just strewn about. bottles and cans and everything. And so, I'm just going through and picking all of that up. And, it's both a positive and a negative. Positive because you're able to make a difference and pick up the trash, the pollution and everything that someone has been leaving around just littering and that it's flowed downstream and landed up on my property, which I hate. But, the negative side as well that people are still doing that, they're just leaving their crap Wherever, just tossing it into the waterways. So that's frustrating. But then just realizing we can all make a difference, just instead of just leaving it there, but getting a trash bag and picking it up and actually making a difference.

Yeah. And I would encourage folks to share when they do it. We started last year, we had our first Community Conservation Day last August. And what it was, was, you know, folks would, wherever they live, we encouraged them to go out and do something for wildlife. And if you weren't allowed outside, Do something online for wildlife. Advocate for your favorite conservation cause, for your favorite species. And if you know, if you had the dollars to do it, make a donation to your favorite group and share about it on social media. And this year we're doing it again. It's August 21st, so 8/21/21. And we already have projects popping up all over the country. We're putting them up on a map on our website. But the big encouragement is for folks to share. how they're giving back that day. And we, we're doing it on a specific day, one, to kind of gateway drug people into, you know, that activity.

Right.

There'll be giveaways and prizes and gear and, and, and, uh, uh, certificates to different 2% brands and stuff through it as prizes for the folks who take part in it to get them to do it for the first time. But we want folks to do it year-round because then the community gets involved. Your local community picks up news about it. So An example would be in North Carolina, one of our business members, South Appalachian Anglers. They're a guide service for fishing in the Appalachians, Appalachians, however you pronounce it, in those fantastic mountains. They guide on rivers predominantly, and Ethan Holyfield is one of their guides. He committed for a year to once a week clean up the stretches where he takes clients. So once a week he went out with a trash bag and he cataloged every single piece of trash. So I mean, this guy just went nuts, and this was, this was his, his personal thing that he was going to do. He cataloged for the whole year on a spreadsheet. Well, the local community found out about it. They end up in the news, they're in the paper, um, it gets spread all over social media. Here's this guy taking care of his river, uh, and Soon he was going out and bumping into other people at these spots. By the end of the year, he was bumping into other people who had trash bags who were also cleaning up because they had seen that he was cleaning up and they wanted to help. So that's just one example. We have piles of examples from trails and all over the country where when you share on social what you're doing and how it impacted you, not just the, you know, screw you people who litter, But also the positive feeling of, you know, I earned this, this beer at the end of the day because I hauled out all this stuff, or check out this sofa I found in my hunting spot. You know, it's contagious and folks really engage with that. So I would encourage folks, you know, this year get involved with our Community Conservation Day in August. It's up on our website. It's one of the first things you see on there. We're still adding pins to the map, so it might look a little naked right now. But as projects get added for people to join, or if someone wants to host a project, all they have to do is fill out that form and we'll get that added, and then people can show up on that day and get involved.

Super, Jared, this is great. Where can people learn more about you and 2% for Conservation, and what links would you like to share with our audience?

Uh, well, our website is fishandwildlife.org, but if you Google 2% for Conservation We're gonna pop up. You can also find us on Instagram and to a lesser degree Facebook. We're predominantly on social on Instagram. We stay off of Twitter because again, we'd rather put that work into the ground instead of, you know, the online fights. So they can learn all about us on our website or, you know, social. Just search for us and it'll all pop up. On our homepage, we have a video made on how certification works, how simple it is. You know, a lot of things we covered in this, you know, podcast are in that video as well. They can also look up all of our business members. Well, most of our business members. Some of them aren't on the website quite yet, but they can look and see who's certified in their area. They can also look up volunteering or donating opportunities through our committee directory. These people are titled volunteers with conservation causes all over the US and Canada that they can be in touch with. And there's also more information about our other programs, our staff, and our board and whatnot, all available there too.

Great. Jared, thanks so much for your time. Can you make any recommendations on who we should interview next for the show?

Yeah, that board member I nearly killed, Jess. If you can get, if you can get Jess Johnson on the podcast, she'd be phenomenal. She's a gear nut. Um, she's, uh, one of the only wildlife lobbyists in the state of Wyoming. She works for the Wyoming Wildlife Federation, but she's also on our board of directors. And I know how nervous she gets before podcasts, so I like to recommend her, uh, to know that she gets nervous, um, and mess with her a little bit.

Super.

Um, I'd have her on. I'd try to have, uh, Sam Duanel. If, if you can do an international one with her— granted, she's up in Svalbard, but finding out what she's doing and the gear she's using up there.

Yeah.

She's chasing down these caribou herds, studying the effects of climate change on this island herd of caribou, and she's doing it on skis, uh, for the most part. Like, she follows, like, their tracks if she can find them, or their dung, uh, if the snow hasn't covered it already. But she has to travel around with rifles because of all the polar bears.

Wow.

So, mm-hmm. Yeah. And she's a— I would put her up against any hunting world personality on getting in the backcountry. I've seen her on the side of a mountain and she's not human. Um, she just ain't. So super. Uh, I'd have those 2 on, uh, as, as soon as you could.

Let's make that happen.

All right, super.

Jared, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. This has been Such a fun conversation, uh, the stories that you told and just learning more about 2% and the work you're doing and how people can get involved because this is so important just for nature, for the outdoors, and just to make us better people too. So thank you for your time.

Well, thanks for having me on and thanks for all that you guys are doing for wildlife. Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You could check out the show notes for You can listen to today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.