Ep 9: Jake Larsen, Outdoorsman, Carpenter, Public Land Advocate

Welcome to the Rewild Gear Podcast. Modern life, society, and responsibilities have domesticated us, but now it's time to rediscover your adventurous side. Whether that's camping, hiking, hunting, fishing, or just spending time in the great outdoors, this is the podcast for you. Join us as we get back to the wilderness and rewild. Welcome to Rewild Gear Podcast. I'm your host Seth Spears, and I'm here today with Jake Larson, a Montana wilderness guide, gear expert, carpenter, family man, and all-around good guy. Really happy to have him on the show today. Jake, welcome to the show.

Thanks, man. Glad to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Of course. Really excited to talk to you and just about your expertise in the, the outdoor space. So just to get started, why don't you give us a little bit of background about yourself, how you got into living kind of an outdoor lifestyle, getting into wilderness guiding and all of that fun stuff.

All right, man. Well, I don't know how, uh, how far down that rabbit hole you want to go, but, um—

Let's go.

Okay, okay, we'll do it. So I, I grew up in the outdoors, man. Um, I'm only— I should say because it's, it's important context— I'm 27, so I grew up very different than most my age. I grew up in central Wyoming. We weren't poverty poor, but we were very close to it. I'm one of 5, middle child. And I think my dad was making like $29,000 a year working for the state. So yeah, I mean, and I was born in '94. So we're talking, you know, in the 2000s, making that kind of money with 5 kids.

Wow.

And student loan debt. And my mom didn't work, she would stay at home. So, you know, by necessity, we just didn't have a lot of fancy stuff, you know. But we made up for it because we rented a little property in the middle of a chunk of farmland, 5,000 acres. So I grew up on a farm. We didn't own the farm or run the farm. But I grew up kind of like we did, helping out and just with space. So, we had a big creek running through the acreage. The general, you know, we had some kind of boundaries for where we could go and where we couldn't go, but we were roaming 2, 3 miles from home, you know, by the age of 5, 6, 7 years old regularly. I've got a brother that's 2 and a half years older than me, which was awesome. He's super independent too and mature for his age when he was younger. So, we got to do a lot of really fun stuff really young. We had a dog. A lot of wildcats, bobcats, and a lot of raccoons.

As pets?

No, man, just on the creek. So it was like Where the Red Fern Grows. I don't know if you know that story.

I watched it when I was a kid, a long, long time ago.

I read the book. I mean, that one was like, that was like a book of my childhood in a lot of ways. I mean, different culturally in some ways. But yeah, I mean, we grew up basically running. Yeah, there's a ditch rider too that was, he's His name was Merlin. He was kind of a local friend of ours and he was a trapper. So, he got us running a trap line for him on the place. I was 7, my brother was 9 when we started that. So, we were running the trap line before we were 10 years old and just every free second was outside. And, I mean, the house was 900 square feet.

Whoa.

So, it's not like 5 kids could tromp around inside of that. So, I mean, we were just outside all the time. I mean, that was— it wasn't— it's less of a choice, I guess, for me, more of just the way that I was raised. And, you know, as soon as we got into high school and started being able to work, make our own money, started buying backpacking gear and getting into that. And then I got into mountaineering, light mountaineering stuff, and, you know, some of the more technical things as money allowed into early college. And then Just went from there.

Got it. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about the trapping. That is, that's something that I don't know a whole lot about, and I've never tried trapping myself. I'm interested in it. I recently read Steve Rinella's book called Meat Eater, actually, and he talked about getting started at trapping at a very young age with his brothers. And so I'm interested in, I would love to learn more. Can you, can you tell me a little bit more about that? And what that looked like in the—

yeah, man, that stuff. Yeah, I'm— don't, uh, you gotta understand, I'm definitely no expert, um, and it's been some years, you know, since we've, since we've done it. But, um, I don't know, where should I start? I guess the thing that is— I'll start with this— the thing that's appealing to me about trapping, um, which I think Just to draw a thread through maybe, I guess, to some of my later experiences, it got me obsessed with animal behavior because the only way you can really be successful as a trapper is to— I mean, not to sound all whatever crunchy granola, but you have to think like the animal. I mean, you really have to get into their head. And so, I mean, the general technique, and obviously it changes with every species, but the general idea is You understand basic animal behavior, whatever you're chasing, you understand how they're going to move, where they're going to move to a certain degree. And like anything, you develop an eye for that. And a lot of that is instinct and just time and practice. But you'll look at a space, a general space where you want to set a trap, say within a few hundred yards along a creek bottom or riverbank or something like that. And with experience, you're going to just look at that and go, okay, If an animal was going to cross this area, this is how he's going to do it. This is where he's going to do it. It's going to be here, here, or here. And then you go to those places and you start to, you know, and this is where you get into really specific techniques, but you can actually manipulate the environment in order to direct that animal to go exactly where you want it to go. Which again, in order to do that properly and naturally so the animal doesn't just step over or go outside of what you're wanting to do, you really have to understand how they move and how they think.

Mm-hmm.

And so you're actually visualizing Exactly how that animal is moving through the space. And then you're setting the trap, you know, in that space. And again, there's— that's really general because you've got different styles of traps. You have conibears and, you know, leg hold traps and different styles. So like a conibear style trap is, um, that's more like an open hoop. And so when the animal comes through that open hoop, the mechanism is tripped and it actually It kills the animal if it works properly. And so—

It strangles them?

It's more like, yeah, and pressure and just speed. It just snaps closed around their neck or mid-body. And, a foot-leg hold trap is exactly what it sounds like. That's probably what most people think of when they think of a trap is a standard foot-leg hold trap. It'll have a pan in the middle, 2 jaws. When the animal steps on that pan or puts pressure on the pan, jaws close. So, you know, that one, that style of trap, you know, you can set that with bait so that you're drawing an animal in with bait, or you can do like I was describing earlier, you know, where you're setting it so that the animal is moving through that space and stepping, placing their foot exactly, you know, on top of that pan. And that's where you really have to get, you know, people who are really talented with trapping. I know one man who's— his name's Albert Towns in central Wyoming. He's in his 70s now, but he made a living trapping in the wintertime for a lot of years in the '70s and '80s. And he's just incredibly talented with trapping, especially bobcat, which can be very difficult to trap. And like, he would— he was so good at visualizing, you know, he would manipulate the environment and set a trap. You know, he would be looking and saying, okay, this left foot's gonna go here, right foot's gonna go here, rear hind foot's gonna switch up. when that cat moves into this position. And so, I'm going to set the leg hold right here so that that left paw comes forward and sets right in. And, he could visualize that.

Wow.

Yeah. So, that's a high level of, well, a lot of time, a lot of talent, and just the ability to, like I said, to really get into the mind of the animal. So, it's an understanding of animal behavior, but it's also a little bit of that next level of kind of the It's outside of the book knowledge and into the— into that whatever, that talent art space, if you want to call it that.

And a lot of that comes with time and experience, right?

Oh man, yeah, just time and watching those animals move. And then say you set— you know, probably the most helpful thing was getting traps robbed. You know, you get 3 or 4 traps robbed and you, you go in there and then you have to work out that back trail and you're watching You're seeing that animal's tracks and going, okay, that's how he moved through that space, not how I visualized.

When you say robbed, what do you mean by that?

So like, um, that would be more specific to a bait trap, um, or some sort of an attractant, which there's other ways to do it besides just bait. But anyway, so you, you come in, whatever, you come check your trap and there's, there's tracks there and maybe the bait's gone or something's been moved. So you know an animal's been there, but you didn't catch him. And then you go and you look at that, your set, and you're looking at the tracks in the sand or the dirt or whatever and going, working out in your head. So now you're reverse visualizing, what did this animal do differently than what I thought he was going to do?

Ah.

Does that make sense? Now you know, you do that 10 or 12 times in kind of a given set of circumstances, and all of a sudden your understanding of how the animal moves up into that set is You know, much more elevated. And I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah, no, that's helpful. And so you grew up hunting as well? Yes.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Not, um, I should say I grew up hunting— I don't know, man, it's so hard because culturally, especially like where you guys are at versus in the West, there's so many different kind of ways to hunt and cultures of hunting. So I should say like I did not grow up In the space that I am now in the, in the, in the hunting world, which is kind of more of the backpack, like hardcore, whatever, what you see on YouTube. And we did not grow up doing that. And we didn't have the money to do that stuff. You know, we grew up hunting around the farm, hunting local only, you know, in-state tags only and not traveling super far. You know, we went into the mountains some. I'm talking more, especially when I was, you know, 10, 12, 14. young teenage years. As I got into high school, we really started to dive into the mountain thing. Um, but yeah, this, like what I'm doing now does not really resemble what I did as a kid.

So was it more tree stand or blind hunting as opposed to, uh, deep excursions into the backcountry?

No, no, not, um, I've never sat a tree stand in my life. I have sat blinds a few times. Um, but Only like, eh, not even a blind like you guys would think of a blind, more of a western-style ambush-type blind. Basically, I've only— and I've only ever done that later in life, actually chasing a deer that I have patterned and I've decided it's the only way I'm gonna kill him. So, um, that's— yeah, I've never sat blinds or tree stands. So it's more just, um, How'd you say it? Like just day hunting, you know, hiking. A little bit in the mountains or into farm country, you know, as a kid.

Still spot and stalk though?

Oh yeah, all spot and stalk. Yeah, I've never done really done anything besides spot and stalk significantly.

It's fascinating to me the differences when you're hunting on the East Coast versus the West Coast or even the Midwest, uh, just because it's so much bigger and wide open on out on the West Coast. I'm like where you are in Montana or Wyoming, um, or Idaho even, just because it— there's so much more land to roam and public land and everything. How for me growing up in Kentucky and hunting on private land and you got 50, 60 acres, maybe a couple hundred if you're lucky. And so you're watching the patterns of say the deer or turkey or whatever it is that you're hunting, primarily whitetail. And then you're setting up a stand in the most optimal place that you can find based on their movements and patterns and where you're seeing rubs and scrapes and all of that. So it's a vastly different type of hunting than spot and stalk and backpacking in. And, um, yeah, just, just very different.

Yeah, yeah. And that's something too, like that differentiation, I guess, is what I'm really driving at, is like the, the backpack, you know, backpack style hunting. I guess out here, when you talk to people out here, if you say I backpack hunt, they're, they're gonna think you're talking about, you know, putting all your gear in a pack and leaving for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 days. Um, at a time and living out of your backpack, where really anyone who hunts seriously at all in the mountains, even if they're just day hunting, they're backpack hunting. I mean, they're carrying a pack that's capable of— and sometimes they're going, you know, 2, 3, 4 miles in just day hiking. You know, you get up at 3 o'clock in the morning and hike for a couple hours in the dark, you can be 2 or 3 miles in, in a lot of places and into some pretty good stuff, stuff that maybe logistically even makes sense to backpack hunt. But if you just don't have it in your timeline, Or you don't have the time, you're just hitting it for a weekend or whatever, you know, they're into some of the same country, the guys who are serious, and they're still carrying. And because of that, they have to carry a pack that's capable of, you know, expanding out and, you know, into that range of volume where you would maybe backpack hunt out of it. Because if you kill something back there, you're packing it out on your back. So, sure. Um, you know, it— I just— there's some differentiation there, if that makes sense. Like Everybody who hunts in the West in the mountains to a certain degree backpack hunts, even if they never spend a night out. They're hunting with a, with a big backpack on and they're planning on packing the meat out on their back.

Yeah, that's very different than, you know, you're driving up to the edge of a property or either in your truck or four-wheeler or side-by-side or whatever the case may be there. And, you know, you're hiking to your stand a few hundred yards or maybe a little longer, and if you shoot something, then you're just dragging it out to the truck. So quite a bit difference and not a whole lot of, not a whole lot of need for meat bags and stuffing it in your pack and packing it out there.

Right. No, none of that stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, I'd, let's see, I'd, I'd have to think about it. Probably the last time I drove a vehicle to an animal, I was less than 10 years old. And so, wow, it would have been on the farm. You know, we killed a few animals in the field, but even there, a lot of times, you know, we were going out to the BLM. if we were hunting locally. And then a lot of times we were driving a short ways to the mountains and hunting in the mountains, kind of more the way I just described. So, sure.

So did you grow up fishing a lot as well?

Yeah. Yep. So we lived— the Wind River, um, yeah, comes right through very, very close to where I grew up. So we fished that locally, fished the creeks locally, and then, um, we'd go up in the Bighorn Mountains and the Wind River Mountain Range quite often and fish brook trout and Mostly brook trout. When we were kids, we really liked chasing brook trout. So, you know, I learned to spin fish and fly fish in the mountains. And again, that's, that's kind of my second passion that I've carried through and taken to the next level here, which has been really fun. And I honestly, if I had to give one up, I don't know. I don't even know if I could choose between hunting or fishing. It's, it'd be tough. Yeah.

Primarily fly fishing. Would you say that's your—

I like to do it that way, but I like to catch fish. So if—

It doesn't matter what it is as long as there's one on the line, right? Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I'm not a purist. I just like to catch fish. So if, if the right way to do it is to— with a fly rod, then I'm using a fly rod. And if it's not working and I think I can do better with a spin setup, I'm gonna use the spin setup. And some of that has been born too out of like, I, I fish, I mean, I fish some outside of the mountains, but really primarily I'm chasing like high country golden trout or big brook trout or kind of trophy fish in the, mostly in the Beartooths, um, and some of the Wind Rivers. And, um, just some of the bank conditions can be really, really tough. I mean, a lot of times you're fishing lakes between 9,000 and 12,000 feet, so, you know, it's alpine type conditions. So big rock, sometimes the rock banks are really, really steep, and it can just be really difficult conditions sometimes. Depends on the lake. Some lakes are great and they're easy, but, um, you know, and then it also depends on lake structure. So a lot of times the way that these lakes are built is you've got big shelves that come off the shore and then drop off, and the fish will hang on that drop. And if that drop is beyond fly casting distance, especially if you have a real short distance to back cast, there's no way to get to them with a fly rod. And so, you know, it's like, man, you hike for— you commit 3 or 4 or 5 days and miles and miles and miles above 10,000 feet to get to a lake like that. I'm bringing both because if I find out that there's no way I can catch those fish with a fly rod, I ain't gonna sit there and try.

That makes sense. Have you— do you have any experience with any of the Japanese rods, like the Tenkara ones? Are you familiar with those? They're really packable.

I know Yeah, I know what they are, but I don't— I haven't messed with them. They're— most of those are a little above my, uh, pay grade. Um, so I just use, uh, Fenwick Aetos, I think is the fly rod that I use. It's not even a real expensive rod, but, um, it is a 6-weight, which is something that a lot of people don't— like, why are you using a 6-weight in the mountains? But, you know, when you're doing lakes and usually your biggest challenge is cutting wind and trying to get distance, and so you actually need a power rod, like a real fast action rod. that's a little bit heavier. And I use, you know, shooting lines that are built with like a real short running leader so that I can just do like a real high fast back cast and let it rip and, and get a little bit more cast distance with less back cast space. And so there's a few little setup things like that that help. But—

Got it. Yeah. So how did you go from doing all this hunting, fishing, you know, growing up, um, and just kind of that was the lifestyle that you were living growing up, you know, without a whole lot of money, out of a whole lot of resources, to where you are today as far as being a wilderness guide and taking people on amazing backcountry excursions, you know, spending so much time in the wilderness very intentionally as opposed to it's just part of your lifestyle.

Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, you grow up and you start looking at— yeah. I mean, I just connect the dots at some point. So, I should— there's a little space. I'll give you a little background here that'll help with this. But, So I went to college right out of high school. I was going into the medical field. I was a way overachiever in school, valedictorian, blah, blah, blah, 4.0. I did all that stuff. And I thought that was, you know, college was the way. And anyway, long story short, I found out that college was not the way for me. And, uh, ended up working in the trades and immediately saw, I guess, and this is where my entrepreneurial mind kind of kicked in. And I just, I started looking at things from a little different angle. I was looking at things more from, um, wanting to spend time doing the things that I love to do. You know, that was one of the big wakeups was as I started to get into the medical field and, and looked at the lifestyle. I mean, I, I had a lot of interest in the subject, but I started looking at the lifestyle of the people and like what they had to do in order to to get to where they, you know, where they were even practicing. And it was like 30 years old, 34 years old, 35 years old. But, you know, and it's like, man, that's— it's like, that's my 20s and my early— like, that's the prime of my life when I'm gonna be the most physically able, when I want to be ripping around in the mountains doing the things I love to do. Like, I don't— I don't want to be in school. I want to be doing what I want to do.

Yeah.

And on top of it, I, you know, I looked at it from a financial standpoint and Obamacare passed when I was a senior in high school. So it was like the future of that field was looking shaky at best. At the very least, I mean, good or bad, it was gonna change. And anyway, some of those factors came into play and I ended up working, like I said, I ended up working a construction job and just saw that, that field, the trades in general, not just construction, but the trades in general, at least in our part of the world, has been— how would you say it? People have treated it as a last resort, like a last option for many years.

Yeah.

I don't know, 2, 3 generations maybe. And so, your pool of competition is people who have no other option. So, I mean, it's not to be cruel, but I mean, it's like drug addicts. Alcohol addicts, you know, people just who have no other options. You know, they're fueling habits. They can't get a job anywhere else. And so, uh, the competition real stiff. And I saw that immediately. And I also saw that, you know, there was multiple generations of that going on and that there was this older generation of tradesmen, you know, late 40s to early 60s, who were getting ready to retire and there was really no one taking their place. Like the younger, the 2, the 2, 3 generations underneath of them were, were just kind of like losers. I mean, most of them. And there was some, there was some shining examples in there, obviously, of other people who were doing it right. But I just saw immediately those people were doing really well for themselves. And, um, so saw that opportunity. And then I also saw, hey, I get, you know, all I have to do is start my own business. And, um, you know, there's enough work for more work than I'm ever going to want, and I get to control my own schedule. And so when September 1st rolls around, I can say, see you later for 2 months and hunt, which is basically what I started doing. And so within 2 years, I was independent contractor, which I should say, you know, one of the things that really helped with that is I'm not in an area with unions, so I don't have to deal with unions. So that, you know, it gives you the freedom to To just look at the market and to adjust and shift and, you know, develop a skill set that's marketable and then charge for it without having to mess with any of the intermediary things.

Yeah.

So, you know, I was making better money than I would have ever guessed you could with the skill set that I had 2 or, you know, 2 to 3 years into it. And it just— I mean, I started being able to buy gear, the gear I wanted. And that's when I started getting into testing gear and really playing with that stuff and kind of deep diving into that world. And also at the same time, being able to spend, you know, more than weekends in the mountains, like taking 2, 3 weeks off throughout the course of your summers or 4 weeks off spread out and then being gone for 2 months during hunting season.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I want to dig into the gear side in just a minute here. But before doing that, I want to talk a little bit more about the entrepreneurial side, because it's really interesting because not having a background in that and growing up in the family that you grew up, you know, being relatively poor, having limited financial means and not seeing that as an example. What was there an influence or an impetus for you to kind of take that path and see that you could see an opportunity there? Because as you mentioned, there was a big opportunity. You had a competitive advantage when it comes to a trade. And I think a lot of people miss that and they do see that as kind of secondary class type of work, even though, you know, The majority of people coming out of college can't get a job. They have, they're loaded with student debt and that's not a good path to take at all anymore. Um, so huge opportunity there. So what was the impetus for you to kind of go down that path? Um, not having had that example growing up.

Yeah. So this whole, um, there's another little segment I'm going to fill you in on, which was the impetus, which we haven't touched on yet. And that is in between my college experience and when I went into the trades, I actually had a few years in a Christian ministry. It's a non-denominational group that I belong to. I grew up in it. And so I had a couple years in that ministry. And part of that was we traveled a lot and not a long ways from home, but we just traveled. And I got to experience the way that just a lot of different people live. And this was all in Montana and Wyoming, so not a long ways from home, but I just got to see all these different lifestyles. And stay for a few days in a lot of different people's homes. And so it just gives you like a little bit of insight. It's like 2 or 3 days in the life of this family, 2 or 3 days in the life of this family. And I just started putting the pieces together that the people who were doing the best financially and the people who were doing the best in terms of the freedom with their time and just I felt like even overall stress were the people who hadn't done the college route. And it's funny because I never had pressure from my parents to go to college. I mean, my dad, to be honest, he kind of struggled with the whole college thing. He wasn't a great student. He went to college right away out of high school, became a photographer. That was a 2-year degree. Basically found out you couldn't— it's not that you couldn't, but it's art. I mean, it's very hard to make a living doing that. And so, he went back to college, got a 4-year degree, then went back to college again, got a master's degree. So, he's had tons of college. And to be honest, if I blame anyone, it was not pressure from my parents to be caught up in that way of thinking that just the college is the way. It's just our educational system. I mean, it's like, especially when you're a good student, it's not like, oh, what are you doing? It's like, what college are you going to? You know, it's not like, are you going? It's like, which one are you? What are you doing? And so I just never thought any other way, you know, in high school. But then as soon as I had that experience of college early on and got a little disappointed with that, and then had this experience in our ministry where I got this little snippet of all these people's lives, it was like, man, the trades. It's just like these people are doing so well. And so when I stepped out of that role in the ministry, I was in a little bit of limbo. I didn't know exactly what I was doing. And I just, I knew somebody who had a company that was framing. And I said, hey, I just want to come work for you. And I only worked for him for 9 months. Like, I didn't work for him for very long. But it was like within 2 or 3 months, it was like, oh, this is unbelievable. Like, there's so much work, we don't even know what to do with it. And we can't even keep someone hired. I mean, you can't even If you show up to work not drunk or high every day, you are in the— you're 95%, you know, you're in the 95th percentile or better. Like, with— and then that's skills aside or personality or—

Reasonability. Yeah.

I mean, so it's like, so I worked for him for 9 months with zero trades experience. And when I left, I got offered a crew lead position. He was like, if you stay on, I will make you a crew lead. I was like, I don't even— I didn't have a quarter of the skills needed to be a crew lead, but I would show up every day not drunk or high, which was better than everyone else.

Yeah.

So it just, it's like the light bulb went off. And from there, man, like once I started to see that and, and now I look at everything through the lens of opportunity. Like, I see what's going on with the coronavirus or even before that, just economically in general, in my generation and the whole money thing and the college debt thing. And I just look at it and I'm going, there is so much opportunity. Everywhere I look, there is so much opportunity. It's just not where people want to look. And you see people get out of college, $100,000 in debt, and they're making like $12.50 an hour. And it's like, I pay people right now. Well, I can't find anyone to pay. I can't find anyone. I mean, they were so desperate for people to help. My wife runs a hardwood flooring business too. And she worked her way up through that one. Same thing. I mean, that's a great example of the opportunity. She moved to Bozeman 4 years ago. She worked for this company for 2 years. And then it's a split company. It's owned by 3 different entities. And the guy who had been running it got sick and needed to step back. And they offered her a salaried position after 2 years of working for them to run that company. every benefit of running the company, running or owning your own business, and is salaried, you know, after working for 2 years for the company. And yeah, and it's like, and making really good, I mean, really, really good money with zero debt. We have zero debt, you know, and that was the big thing for me is looking at it. It's like, and you know how the money game is played a little bit. It's early is better than more. You know? Yeah. And that's how I— when I look at it now, it just, it blows my mind because like you take any trade, um, let's say, let's say a high school student at 15 or 16 decides, yeah, I'm gonna be a tradesman. Um, and so they start, you know, start learning the basic skills. Let's say they, they work summers and, um, for 2 or 3 years and then maybe their senior year they're working for a tradesman in an apprenticeship, not even necessarily in an apprenticeship, just working for 'em. For 2 or 3 hours a day. That person in my job market where I live right now, let's say as a carpenter, would probably be worth— I would pay that person between $20 and $25 an hour easily, maybe more than that, depending if, you know, if they had some talent, they might be worth even more than that at 18.

Wow.

You know, so you take that and do the math on that. You invest what you need to invest out of that at 18 years old, get yourself a whole life policy or however you want to do it. And yeah, run the finances on that. The doctor who makes $200,000 a year starting at 40 will never catch him.

Yeah.

If that person does it right, you know, and within 4 or 5 years, that guy's going to be worth $60 to $70 an hour. I should say that too. So.

That's a great point. You definitely have a different way of looking at it than most people. And I love it because it's when you think outside of the box and try to do what everyone else is not doing and see where the opportunity is. That's where, that's where the opportunity is. And you can do very, very well and live a different life than a lot of other people, which you've been able to do by spending so much time in the wilderness and the outdoors.

And I don't dream of being a carpenter. I never dreamed of being a carpenter. Like, I never thought about it. I mean, I never did. It wasn't— but I just found out that, like, that was the other thing I found out too. As soon as I started to touch that working world a little bit, you know, in the medical, just in that one little space. But it was like, and I saw that too, I should say, I really saw that too when I had those little snippets of time in these different people's lives, is it was like, work is work. There is no dream job. Like this idea that gets sold to kids, I think, I think it gets sold in the educational system. Like find your dream, follow your dream, follow your passion. It's like, man, work is work. If it was fun, everyone would want to do it. And the guy who follows his dream and You know, to become a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. You ask that guy 2 or 3 years later if he wants to get up and go to work, if he still has the passion for it that he thought he would have at 10 years old. And it's like, maybe there's people who do. I don't want to say there's people who don't, or— but I think that for a lot of people, work is work. There's good days and there's bad days. And I think that whatever you spend your time on, at the end of the day, if you feel satisfied with it, you feel like you've done a good job and you can find some pleasure And getting the job completed. I think that's as much as anyone can ask out of a job. And, um, yeah, I just, I felt like I saw that in, in, in people who had gone other routes in life. It was like, yeah, it's work.

Mm-hmm.

And so I just looked at it like, man, when I got into carpentry, it was like, do I love this? I love aspects of it. Do I love every day I go to work? No way. Do I have days I don't want to go to work? Yeah. Do I have days at 3 o'clock I'm like, I'm so ready to be home? Absolutely.

Yeah.

But everyone, like, everyone does. That's life. I mean, everyone has that.

Yeah.

And so I just realized, I think, I think that's something that's really missing in this picture that you're like, this bigger picture and way of thinking about work and life that the American people as a whole, and I think especially young people right now in my generation really miss, is they're like looking for that thing that just lights their fire every day. And it's like, yeah, every new job does that for 3 months. How about 6 months in? How about 9 months in? How about a year in? And, and then that's what happens. They're like 6 months in, they're like, oh, I don't like this anymore. It's hard. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

You know, I've had the definition of, or the formula for success for a long time. In order to be successful, no matter what you're going to do, you got to do the right things long enough consistently. And, you know, kind of like a 3-tiered approach there. And if you are missing any one of those, it's going to be very, very challenging to be successful. And that's whether that's in business or your career or relationships or whatever the case may be there. But just having that balance is really, really important. I think that's exactly what you're talking about, especially when it's trying to find people for, for that, for those careers, whether that's a trade or whatever. It can be very challenging because they're not willing to put the time in or to learn it in order to become good at it and proficient and to, to make a career out of it.

Yeah. And just to understand that it's not all going to be fun and games. Like if it was, everyone would be doing that thing. Like if there was something that was just so awesome that you were just like every single morning you leapt out of bed, everyone would be doing that thing.

Yeah, exactly. So that's, you know, those are some really good life lessons when it comes to work in your career and things like that. But what about in the outdoor space? What is the biggest lesson, life lesson that you've learned from spending so much time in nature, so much time hunting and backpacking and leading excursions?

Patience.

Tell me more.

This one's— this is— I mean, other people would have different answers, I'm sure. But for me, I'm not a patient person. I'm all go.

Me either.

Yeah, I'm all go. And I've had to learn to dial that back sometimes. I've had to learn to know when to be all go. There's a time. There's a time and a place. And then there's a time to be really patient. Hunting mule deer has taught me that. You just— Mule deer are a funny animal because 2- and 3-year-old deer, which can be, if the genetics are good, can be really nice deer that a lot of people would consider a trophy, and they are trophies to that person, um, are not super hard to kill. They're not really that hard to find. Um, and for that reason, a lot of people can get the feeling, or they have the opinion, that deer are kind of easy, even some nice deer. But big deer, really big deer, which is—

Sure.

In my mind is old deer. Like, I just like old deer. They are some of the more intelligent Western big game animals, and they're so hard to find, and they're so hard to pattern, and they live such a tight routine that when you target them specifically— and this is where your hunting style changes entirely because you're not just going for a walk looking for animals anymore, you know, the approach has to change so drastically that it looks completely different, and it requires so much patience. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's the big one for me. And I'm I'm still learning it. And it requires patience on all these different levels too. I mean, you know, in the moment when you're— when you found a big deer, it requires patience to find one. It requires patience to hunt one. It requires patience to not shoot a really nice one when you know where a really big one is. Uh, it's just all these different layers of that where it requires so much. Yeah, you just have to learn how to keep it in your pants.

Give me an example of a time when you really had to learn this lesson of being patient when it came to Hunting?

Well, I'll tell you, this is— maybe this isn't fair, but it's like the best example I have. I'll tell you of like one of the only successes I've had with being patient, and it's a success and a failure because I didn't kill the deer, but I also, I also didn't kill a different deer.

Ah.

Um, and I may still kill this deer because I'm pretty sure he's still alive. I don't know for sure. I'm gonna find out this summer. Um, But, um, 2 years ago I drew a Wyoming tag in an area that I've wanted to hunt for a very long time. I've known about for a long time and, uh, holds really good deer. So I knew, I mean, I didn't have a number, but I knew that I wasn't just shooting anything. I was going there to hunt and, and, and kill something that was exciting. And I knew what the potential of the area was. So I kind of knew what that looked like in my head. And, um, Long story short, I found that animal and, um, he's living an incredibly tight routine. And I went for 5 days with it during the archery season. And, um, I never even put a stalk on that deer because he had— and I, I found him every day. I knew where he was every single day. But there was— I don't know if I can describe this. Verbally and really get it across. But he was living inside of maybe 300 or 400 yards on the very top of a mountain. It was about 10,400 feet, right at this tip of a peak. Not the biggest peak in the area, but just a peak on a ridgeline with basins off of both sides. And he was basically rolling. He was using the exposure of kind of a crest in that peak to his advantage. to stay out of the sun when it was hot and for his bedding and feeding, essentially. But he only had to move like 300, 400 yards. That was it. And, um, he had a few different beds on that hillside, and there was one of them that I thought maybe, maybe I would be able to, to kill him with a bow. And the other ones, there was no way. And I went for 5 days. I mean, drove down to Wyoming, hiked in 4 miles, many thousand feet up to this spot. And actually Logistically, it was kind of a weird spot. I was camping lower than I would have liked and then hiking almost 1,000 feet every morning. So kind of a brutal hike every morning.

Wow.

To get up there and, you know, and then just sit there and watch him. And sometimes he had beds on the backside where I couldn't see him. And so sometimes I wouldn't see him until like 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Sometimes I saw him right away in the morning. He was— he just had a couple of different little routines, but all in this real tight spot. In these different beds. And in those 5 days, he never got— he never laid in the bed at the right time of day when the thermals were correct, when I knew that I had a chance of killing him. And I could see him, he was right there. And I had so many times when I was like, just try it. Like, you're— you found him, he's a, he's a really, really nice deer. He wasn't not a monster deer by monster deer people's standards, but he was a really good deer, like a high 180s deer. He was a really big deer. And, um, man, I just knew. I was like, if I do it, he's, he's gone. And when you bump a deer like that, that's of that age class, a lot of times they'll move, they'll change their pattern, and you won't find them again.

So that's how they got to be so big and so old.

Yeah, they're very smart. And, um, and part of the reason they get to be so big and so old is because they have patterns like that deer had too. And whether that's a learned behavior or just a process of elimination, like the deer who don't have those kind of patterns get killed, and the deer that don't You know, that do get old. I don't know, there's some debate on that. But regardless, he was one of those deer. And I went back with a rifle, uh, because I left. I left after 5 days and said he never hit the right bed, I had to leave. I had some time for rifle, came back with a rifle and, uh, had 7 days on him with a rifle. And, uh, it was the same thing. There was one pattern that he had where I had a shot with him, you know, would have had a shot. Potentially, um, that made sense. And it was in one movement pattern, switching beds at like 4 o'clock in the afternoon, that he would do. The other tricky thing with the situation is, is that 2— his 2 most common beds were right above big cliffs. We're talking like 300, 400-foot cliffs. So even if you could shoot him in those beds, he would have gone off the cliffs and just got smashed.

You wouldn't recover him.

So yeah, I mean, you could have got him, but you were destroyed. Yeah, you'd have been a mess. So It's kind of like no-go there. And, um, and so he would transition between those beds a lot, so that was no-go. And he had this one pattern where he would cross, and I saw him do it during archery a couple times, and I knew. I was like, that's it. If I'm trying to kill this deer with a rifle, that's it. That's the pattern. When he crosses this face, that's where it's gonna have to be. And I knew. So I was basically sitting there, same thing with the rifle, just waiting for him to make this one bed change where he came across the hillside underneath the tip of the peak and got out from above those cliffs. And, you know, I knew there was this bed he would stage in before he did that. So I knew as soon as he moves to that bed, I got to start my stalk. And it was like an hour-long stalk wrapping around this rim and dropping through another kind of secondary basin and then back over and then creep out on this little tree line. And it wasn't a long shot, like 300 yards, real steep uphill and into this kind of dished part of the peak where I had a shot. And same thing, it was like 7 days and he just never did it. And then there was a huge snowstorm that blew in, super, super wet snow, dropped like a foot and a half of snow, got real dangerous up there. And, um, I had to leave a day later anyways, and so I actually just kind of left as that storm was moving in and, and wasn't able to go back. So, um, anyway, I'm sure unless that deer winter killed, I don't think anyone He's a very hard deer to see, um, from just the way that those peaks lay. It's not a deer that's going to get spotted in that pattern. So I have pretty high confidence he's still alive, and he wasn't an old deer at that time either. So he could be something special, and I'll draw that tag again this year and hopefully have a chance at him.

And that's why they call it hunting and not shooting, right?

Yeah. Oh man, I mean, I have like probably 200 pictures of that deer, you know, through my Spotting scope, zoomed in, perfect, beautiful. And he's right there, you know, I'm 800, 900 yards away from him. And just— but I just knew, it was like, you can't go. If you go, it's never gonna happen, and then it's over.

Yeah, exactly. So Jake, what is either your favorite all-time outdoor experience or an experience that you, uh, never wish to repeat? Oh, might be one and the same, or it might be 2 entirely separate ones.

It might be one and the same for me, actually. Um, I did a trip, and this was not a hunting or fishing trip. It was a thru-hiking route, only it's more like thru-light mountaineering in this country, um, route that I did in the High Wind River Range. And, um, let's see, what year was this? 2017. 2017 I did this, and I did it with a friend from down in Wyoming. And, um, We had read some books that were written on some different routes up in that country. So this is kind of central Wyoming, western side, central west. And the Wind River Range runs north and south. It's big. It's huge. Really, really high elevation. It holds the highest peak in the state, which is Gannett Peak. And it just holds a lot of extreme elevation stuff. And, um, so we had worked out some different routes. There's some big glaciers in that country that we were interested in seeing. And, um, we wanted to climb Fremont Peak, which is the 3rd highest in the state. And we wanted to climb Gannett Peak, which is the highest in the state, like I said. And, uh, we basically hacked together this route that was kind of an amalgamation of different routes that other people had done with our own, some of our own stuff mixed in and did a huge loop up in there. So it was 9 days. We did like 107 miles, which isn't an insane distance for that many days until you look at the terrain we were in. So, you know, the approach, which took us a day, was like a 24-mile approach in Tikhon Basin. And then from there we went off trail and we spent like 57 miles Off trail. So, and this is, you know, this is all country above 10,000 feet. So we're talking from 10,000 to 13,000 feet for that many miles. And—

And this is over the course of how many days?

So it was 9 days total. So we had 7 days, you know, a day in and a day out. So we had 7 days of, of that, you know, so we were averaging 10-ish miles a day in that stuff. You know, we were getting up at like 4 o'clock in the morning. And not setting up camp until dark, you know, which we did this early July, so 9 o'clock at night. It's basically going all day. And we did it early for the— for that country. Um, it was not technically open to thru-hiking. There's just— anyway, somewhat subjective. But a lot of the passes and a lot of the country that we were in and the routes that had been described, which we knew this, which would be scrambling and rock fields and shale and were all snow. So we had ice axes, crampons, that kind of equipment. We didn't rope because we wanted to go light and fast. And ropes are tricky. Ropes get kind of weird. Speed, the speed factor with ropes is weird.

Mm-hmm.

They can be a safety piece of safety equipment. They can also be extremely dangerous depending on the terrain and kind of what you're doing with them. So we were unroped for all of it. And both of us are good climbers. So we actually felt safer that way, to be honest, and we could move so much faster to trying to do what we were doing. Anyway, that was, that was incredible. And I did that. We did it a little bit on a budget and we got— our nutrition wasn't quite right. We found this out later, but we had spent enough time at high enough elevation that your brain starts to need some different stuff, different proportions of fats and things that we weren't quite dialed in with. And so we got kind of weird. We got some elevation sickness, but And not like, not acute hypoxia where your lungs are filling up with fluid, but just mentally pretty weird. I was hallucinating a little bit at one point and hearing voices telling you to lay down and go to sleep and things like that where, you know, don't do that, bad idea. And that happened like on day, I think it was day 4 or 5. We were— we had this one huge section of ridge that was all really high. It was like 12,600 to 13,000 feet. We were on it for— Several hours, probably a little dehydrated and pretty whipped. Um, but we hit several major glaciers, either upclimbed or downclimbed those glaciers, and got to see some of the neatest things I've ever seen in my life for sure. And it was just nonstop for a lot of days, you know. And then we ended that trip towards the end. We circled around and, um, got up on the approach again at peak, and the conditions were right. That peak can be very difficult to get up Not because it's so technical, but because there's this called a bursch run, which is where a glacier starts to separate from the slope that is creating it. And so, you essentially have a giant pit there that can go for thousands of feet depending on how far it opens up. And so, there'll be a snow bridge that covers that at the beginning of every season, climbing season. Eventually, that'll separate and get weak. So, that one's tough because the weather can get bad early in the season, but if you wait too long, the bursch run opens up and you can't cross the So, we hit it just right, conditions were right. So, we actually summited Gannett Peak and then we pulled the hardest day I've ever had hands down in the mountains. So, that day started at 4 o'clock in the morning. So, where we had staged for the summit of Gannett, we had 3,000 vertical feet to climb. So, we summited Gannett, which is a little over 13,000, and we dropped back down 2,000 of those feet and then crossed And then dropped another 2,000 feet and then we climbed Bonney Pass. So at that point we were 6,000 feet of elevation change in, then we climbed Bonney Pass up the other side, which was another just under 3,000. So we were pushing 9,000 feet at that point. We hit that at noon and we were supposed to have a whole nother day on the trip. We were supposed to drop off the backside of Bonney Pass back into the basin where we started, which is called Titcomb Basin. And And then we were going to camp and then hike out the next day. It's about a 24-mile approach out from that point. We were in it 8 days or 9 days at that point, 9 days I think, and decided we wanted food that was good. And so we licked our wounds. We licked our wounds and said, 26.5 miles to go, we're doing it. And we got out at like 11:30 that night. And I don't think I've ever been in more pain in my life.

Wow.

And we were, we were so messed up too. I mean, we were hallucinating and we were, we were talking to each other the whole time because we knew we were getting pretty loopy, pretty weird. And our conversations were just like, we couldn't track. We were all over the place. And it was, it was pretty funny.

That's a great story, Jake. One of the things that, that as a company we're focusing on with RuI/O Gear is conservation. I'd like to hear your opinion spending so much time in the outdoors and, you know, over, over 100 days a year, uh, out there, where you see the biggest need in conservation today?

Oh, anywhere, like related to hunting or—

Yes, hunting, fishing, um, backpacking, doesn't matter. Uh, just in general, where do you see is the biggest need?

Boy, the biggest thing that I think— I think one of our biggest issues Which I have absolutely no answers for. So I'll be really interested to throw this out there. It's just— and this is almost more related to just the way the world is right now. And COVID really brought this about too. It's just a flood of people moving out here to enjoy public land. And I do think that there's more factors to it than that. I mean, not everyone is coming just for that reason, but I think that's— I think it's tied into the reason that people are coming into the West right now without them even realizing it. You know, it's just the concept of like the mountains are safe and there's no people there and there's all this, there's all these fish and all these deer. We're going to live off the land. And of course, none of that's really— it's not really how it is in one sense, and it is how it is in another sense. And I think a lot of those people come out here and rightly so, they want to explore what I grew up enjoying and what we all love. And how do you simultaneously allow them to enjoy that? Because who can say no? Whose right is it to say, no, you can't enjoy this, without destroying what it is fundamentally, which is a space where there's not a lot of people?

And I— great point and a great question.

So, and I have no answers for it. I mean, Colorado is really starting to have this problem badly in their national forests. And, um, you know, there's been some talk of, of use, use permits and those kinds of things. And we're not talking hunting permits. We're talking use permits.

Just hiking, backpacking, trail running.

Whatever you want. Yeah. Anything. But just, but then is it really public land? And then is it really what we love? And I don't know. I don't know where those lines cross and what we do about it.

Yeah, you see that in real estate a lot as well, where there's a certain area that is— that people are drawn to just because it's quaint, it's beautiful, cost of living might be lower, and then people just start moving in in droves, and then it loses what brought everyone there to begin with. Yeah. So where do you find that balance? How do you find that You know, that balance of keeping it quaint and enjoyable, but also enough people that they can, they can enjoy it and not just like a hidden gem, you know?

Yeah. And it's one thing too. I mean, we can sit here and theorize where that balance is all day, but it doesn't matter because how do you stop it? What do you even do to change it? How do you go about that? I mean, we— yeah, what are we going to do, litigate it? I mean—

Probably not the answer, but I mean, It may get to that, who knows?

Yeah, it may, it may. But at the same time, it's like, are my 100 days a year in the backcountry, you can give or take, going to still exist when I have to have a permit for every one of them? Probably not. I mean, how would that, how would that square? Because there's people who have like 5 and they want more, right? And then we have to make it all fair or whatever. I mean, you have to start to ask those questions and write numbers and You know, it's like that destroys fundamentally what it is, which is that it's a place to go be free and do what you want to do. Yeah.

So, you know, in this hyper-crazed media environment in which we live with the 24-hour news cycle and reality TV and a show for every niche and activity pursuit you could ever want, it seems like that, that just puts a microscope on different activities— hunting, fishing, backpacking, all of these things we're talking about. That's no exception. And I think That's probably one of the reasons why we're seeing more of that, because it's glamorized. And so people, they, they see the highlights. You know, I have a friend who once said that social media creates an obfuscated lens that people see the world through. And I think that's really true, because you're only seeing the best parts of someone's life. And reality TV is another example of that. And we've got all these shows, I mean, shows that I enjoy, Meat Eater as an example, you know, we all love watching that. A lot of Randy Newberg's shows.

Yeah. Survivor.

That is great.

Alone.

Yeah, all of these different, these different shows and things that it's encouraging people to get outdoors and spend more time. And, you know, as a company, we're trying to do that as well because we want people to spend time in nature, whatever that looks like for them and where they're most comfortable and enjoy, because it's something that everybody should experience. But how do you, how do you do that? Producing content or information and things that makes it relevant that people want to watch or enjoy and see. But it's not glamorized so much so that everyone thinks that they can do it when that's not really the reality of it.

Yeah, I think one thing that would help is to take the money out of it, but that ain't gonna happen.

That's the sole reason that it's being done though, right?

That's the reason it's being done. But I think, I, you know, I've thought about this a lot, um, because I, I'm no lover of social media and, um, Yeah, partly because it negatively affects me to the point where I don't have it anymore, ever. And it's just the way my brain is wired. I don't think everyone is affected that way. I don't think that's the right answer for everyone necessarily, but I just couldn't handle it.

Sure.

For a multitude of reasons. But I think this really touches in on this question or this topic. Boy, where do we even start? I think that back to the money thing, I think that the reason that all that stuff is glamorized is because it has to be because they're selling a product, right? Whether it's the show or whether it's their affiliates or whatever, you know, they're selling a product. And so it has to look cool and awesome and fun. And the reality is, is that a lot of these pursuits are not— they are cool and awesome, but like, they're only fun— it's type 2 fun. I mean, they're fun for like— A little bit of the time. And the rest of the time, they're actually kind of miserable. And you learn, I mean, there's a certain type of person who likes that and likes the challenge, and that becomes fun. But it ain't fun like people think it's fun. It isn't fun like the YouTube video looks like it's fun.

There's a lot of editing that has gone on there.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it doesn't even have to be intentionally, like, misleading editing. It's just like, what are you gonna do? Show someone sitting in a tent for 3 days while it's raining? Like, that doesn't make good TV.

Telling jokes and playing cards. I mean, it's only so much.

Or if you're by yourself just sitting there trying not to go crazy, which is sometimes what happens. So yeah, you take the money out of it, that solves a lot of it, but obviously that's no answer. And like you're saying, that lens in which social media, it's the way that I have always thought of it. It's an interesting way of saying it. Um, I've always thought of, uh, about it like it makes me see the world through a lens. Um, and that's why I got rid of it, because, you know, there was a little while when, like that little time period that I was telling you about when, when I finally had enough money to buy gear and to really, you know, I got onto Rockslide on the forums, which is a hunting forum, by the way, for your listeners.

Um, and, uh, it's a group forum.

It is for backcountry hunting, although To be honest, it's kind of going a little bit downhill. It used to be better. Um, it's— the content's still really good, but they used to manage— it's like any forum, you know, there's a core group of people who made it really awesome, and then there's always the trolls.

Sure.

People who just have nothing to add. And they did— they, they do way better than most about getting rid of those people, but it's just over time, it just, it gets more that way. And so the good information gets lost. in that forum more than it used to. It's still there though. It's good. It's a great option, great resource. But anyway, you know, I got into that world, into that space and kind of started to touch the industry. And, you know, I never had— I was never in a position where it was like I had the opportunity to get sponsored or anything like that, but it just started to get to that level and meet some of the people and brush that world. And it just— what happened is, is exactly what you kind of described, which is that all of a sudden when I was outside doing the things I love to do, I was subconsciously without even trying to just comparing it to everything I was seeing on social media all the time.

Great point.

And I just could not stop it. It was like a little black cloud over my head, you know? And, or a lens, that's a good way to put it. But it wasn't like a lens that I could just, oh, put that away. It was just there. And instead of watching something beautiful while I was hiking or while I was making supper or whatever, it was like, oh, that's a great picture. Ooh, how would that look? What filter should I put on that? And it's just like all those little, and it's all of a sudden it's like, man, there's just, it's like it's tainting everything, every experience that should just be this pure beautiful, visceral human experience is all of a sudden seen through this lens of how does this look compared to these people? How does this look compared to what I've seen? And how is this— how can I make this be up to scratch when I post it? I was like, ooh, I got to get rid of this. This is no good. And what I started to notice is that my time in the mountains, instead of being This, I don't know, this is going to sound so granola, but like a healing experience, which it's not like, but just doing what I needed it to do for me, you know, to like refresh your mind and just make you kind of a reset experience would be maybe better, which is how it's always been for me to get, go outside and do the things I love to do. Instead of that, it was just like, it was, you know, it's like 20% that.

Yeah.

And so I was like, boy, this is— and I realized eventually, I was like, yeah, this is social media that's doing this to me. So I got rid of it and I've never touched it again.

How long ago was that?

3 years.

Okay. You know, the paradox with this that I see, and especially even with our company, with Rewild Gear, and our goal is to get more people into nature, into the wilderness, and spend more time with family and friends and get off of their phones and technology and social media while they're doing it. However, in order to get them to do that, the best way to market is using those tools. And so—

Absolutely.

Very weird paradox of we have to use the thing to encourage people to get away from the thing.

Yeah.

And, you know, trying to wrap your head around that, and it's almost like, okay, are we doing a good thing or not by using this?

Yeah, I totally, I understand, and I've sort of been there. Because even what Jordan Reasoner— probably by the time this is aired, everybody will know who he is. But since I've met him, and he's a media guy in social media, he knows how to use it for marketing. And we've discussed how to supplement our living with the things that we love and the skills that we've learned doing it for a long time. We've had a lot of discussions and a lot of ideas. ideas around that. And there was actually a time when we had a whole business plan sort of sketched out for me where I was doing gear and those kinds of topics related to hunting and backpacking in the traditional way, like through an Instagram page.

Sure.

Using all those tools and blowing it up and doing that thing. And man, I just, I kind of started down that route and that was about when a lot of these pieces really came together for when I realized this isn't going to work for me personally. I just can't do this. It will ruin the thing that I love to do. So I'm out. But since then, we've talked a lot. And even what we're doing now with the way that I'm guiding, it is very non-traditional. And that is by design. We came up with something or we tried to come up with something to where it didn't require a huge blown-up social media following, and it didn't require us to be sponsored by everyone under the sun and beholden to those products. And it didn't require those— just that traditional route through that world. And, um, maybe it's gonna work, maybe it's not. I don't know. We're, we're, we're, we're finding out.

Yeah.

Um, but that's a huge part of the discussion, and that's why— because we wanted to do this in such a way That we weren't, you know, that we were true not only to ourselves, but, but just like you said, to not bring more of what's already damaging the outdoor space, in our opinion. Sure.

Tell me a little bit more about how your guiding services and when you're taking people on these outdoor excursions, how it differs than a more traditional one.

Sure. Well, there may be other people who do guided backpacking trips. I'm sure that there are. I don't even know, uh, if there are or not. But, um, you know, one of the big things, one of the, uh, obviously one of the biggest ways that you can make money in the outdoor space related to hunting is just to be a traditional hunting guide. And we both rejected that idea because we want our time to be our time hunting. Like, I don't want to be planning someone else's hunt in September. I want to be doing my hunt.

Sure.

In September and, um, in October, whatever. So that was off the table immediately, you know. And so that's, you know, it's very non-traditional in that sense. And, and what we're trying to do too is— I don't know how much Jordan talked, talked to you about the structure of our company, and, and we're still, still trying to figure it out in a lot of ways, um, and adjust it to make it work. But, you know, at this point We've reached out like through Rewild and touched your guys' community through you. And that's kind of our idea going forward is to talk to people. So rather than marketing to 10 million people on Instagram and doing all the things that you have to do in order to put your ad that looks super pretty and super cool and all slicked up and fake in front of 10 million people and make them click. And then of those 10 million people, a handful of them say, yeah, I want to do that. So rather than doing that, we're trying to find these really— well, companies like Rewild where you've got a very real and down-to-earth following of people that's already established and a community of people who's that's already established. And then we can offer what we offer to this community that's like tailor-made, that's going to want to do what we have to offer. So it's very personal and it's very direct to people that this fits and the people who are going to understand what we have to offer. And they're going to understand that it's not, you know, this isn't Randy Newberg's hunting show, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it's more of a targeted approach versus a shotgun-based approach.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it, like I said, and that allows us to, to not have to follow this model of selling yourself out in order to get your product in front of a billion people, you know?

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the Wilderness Event. Tell me, uh, tell the audience all about it and, you know, what, what all you do with these events and—

Okay.

All the good details.

Hmm, this one, this one for you guys. Well, some of the details we don't have yet. Um, we don't have an exact location yet, um, because of the time frame for Montana. It is really going to depend on snow. So we have a It's one of 2 or 3 different places that we already have pre-scouted and looked at places we've been before. So depending on snow and weather, we'll choose one of those locations. So we don't know that yet. But the general idea is there's— we'd like there to be 10 of us who go for a week into the backcountry. And that's the down and dirty. We We can tailor it and make it what people want it to be. I think what we offer that's unique is a few things. For one, both Jordan and I have a lot of experience. And so from the gear, which everyone likes that stuff, but it's not the most important thing. Getting the gear correct, the right gear, not just for this trip, but But for each individual, we can tailor that in. We can talk to them. We plan phone calls with people who are coming on these trips. And we spend a bunch of time just talking to them, getting to know them, their background, understand where they're coming from, what they already have for gear and experience and what they don't. And then, we can make selections and recommendations for those people. And make it so that they're confident that when they pack their backpack and come out here, they have everything they need and nothing, you know, that they don't need, and that it's going to work for them beyond this trip for whatever they want to do in the future that's in the backpacking sort of space or the hunting space or however. So that's unique, you know, and so it's this very personal approach again. With each individual. And then, we get these people together and we take them in the backcountry and let them— I think of it as a guided experience. So, we're not there to tell you the history of every single— it's not a guided tour, but it's more of a let us make you safe and comfortable enough to enjoy what we love. And just like, it doesn't need our help. Like, the mountains don't need our help. They're incredible. And, um, they'll create, they'll create the experience and then everyone can experience it in their own way and they can get a taste for it. And maybe they come away and go, I'm never doing that again. That was miserable. And maybe they come away going, this is something that I want to make a part of my life. Like, this changed, this changed me. And maybe it was something that happened when they were, you know, by themselves for a few minutes, or maybe it's something that happened in conversation with, with someone else. And, you know, one of the things that I envision and I'm hoping happens, because this is what happens for me when I'm in the backcountry, which is really what we're trying to share, is, uh, there will be these little moments in time that— I wouldn't say change your life, but they, they can change your outlook. Um, and they can change I've made big life decisions in those moments or solidified life decisions that I've made in the past, so on and so forth. But maybe it's something as simple as 10 minutes of looking at a sunset or just looking at something exceptionally beautiful while your freeze-dried meal is sitting there cooking. And it's the right mixture of You know, you've worked yourself physically, your mind is, you know, it's unplugged. You don't have any of the distractions of work or social media or TV or whatever. You can just get away from all of that and experience nature the way that man was intended to. You can have that visceral connection to everything, the way the sun feels, the way the wind feels, all of those sensory experiences. And I don't know, maybe it's a mix of all of those things. I don't know what it is that creates that, just that right setting to where you can have a real clear mental state and process things that maybe you haven't been able to, or make decisions, or even just unwind and let go of stress that you haven't been able to let go of for weeks, months, years. Whatever it is. There's that half. And then I think the other half for people is that we're really curating who comes along. And we're trying to be very selective and very careful and choose people who are like-minded and have had differences. Of course, everyone has their own life experience, but at the same time, the paths are coming together. And so we're hoping that the conversations that people have, you know, whether it's about business or life or family or whatever, just conversation, brotherhood, that there's going to be something that's lasting and can be developed there.

Jake, so what I'm hearing you say is curation as far as the event goes and future events that you're going to be curating a group of guys who gel and mesh and really get along well together. Would that be a correct assessment?

Yes, that is the goal. Um, one thing that is, uh, everyone talks about, especially hunting, hunting partners talk about it. It's easier to find a wife than it is to find a hunting partner.

Um, I've never actually heard that. That's funny.

Oh dude. I mean, when it comes to backpack hunting, it's, it's no joke. I mean, you're talking, if you're sharing a shelter, you're talking to spending 3 to 9 days in very close proximity to someone, you know, Smelling their dirty underwear for, uh, for 9 days. And, um, you know, every conversation. And sometimes, you know, you're stressed physically, especially stressed mentally sometimes out there in different ways. It's not work stress, but it's still stress. And so if there's problems, I mean, if there's friction, it's, uh, it can be spectacular. There's some good stories. That makes sense. Um, so, you know, everybody has their own space a little bit more in, in the event for sure. You know, It's not like we're all sharing a shelter, but we want people, you know, just for the overall quality of the experience, but also we're trying to help people. You know, that's part of it is to create a bit of a brotherhood and to meet new people and, you know, to allow for that kind of magical space where the free flow of ideas can really happen and gel. And we feel that it's come from personal experience. A lot of my business decisions and big life decisions, and same with Jordan, I know, have happened or been cemented or formulated in the backcountry. And it just seems like that clearing of the headspace and physical activity, and it just creates that right set of circumstances for ideas to just to go. And then you add a group of guys who all, you know, different backgrounds, but who all are on the same page in a lot of ways together.

Yeah.

It's like, man, You know, we could, uh, we could cure cancer out there.

Nice, I like it. Jake, let's talk about gear. You know, we're both, we're both gear nerds, love gear. Um, I know you've had a lot of time over the years to test out a lot of different gear, um, as have I. What would you consider essential gear no matter what you're doing in the backcountry? So you're going out, whether that's for one day or 10 days. What gear is always in your pack?

Uh, summer or winter?

Yes.

Yes. If it's yes, um, I'm gonna list a really specific piece because— and I'll get into why— but the Kafari Lost Park Parka for me is like the essential piece. And it's a, it's a puffy jacket for your listeners, um, but it's not— it's a little different than Your standard puffy jacket. For one thing, it's synthetic insulation, and that's really important, especially when you start talking about, you know, not summer, fall, spring, winter, because it's going to get wet. And the reason that it's the essential piece for me is it's not only is it very comfortable, but it's insurance. Because that thing is like wearing a sleeping bag. It's very warm. And because of that, because of its construction and that synthetic insulation, it's warm even when it's wet. So say you fall in a creek, say you get caught in a really wet snowstorm, which happens a lot, and that can happen in mid-August if you're above 10,000 feet, sleet and snow Are a very common occurrence mid-August. You're talking the warmest part of the month or part of the year, and you can get hammered by 2, 3, 4 inches of sleet, you know, snow, whatever mix, rainy stuff, nasty wet stuff, and it's cold. And I mean, that's a recipe for hypothermia like right now. And that piece is— and you know, it's insurance against that. You can be wet, the piece can be wet, and it will still insulate you. And so I see it as insurance. That's why it's essential.

Interesting to me that it's from Kifaru, who they make amazing packs and I love their packs, but you don't think of them as a clothing company. And there's so many companies that they do specialize in jackets, coats, you know, technical outerwear or base layers, but you don't think of Kifaru in that sense at all. So I find that interesting.

Yeah, so, um, the magic is, is in that— it's like a— I can't remember what the technical term, but it's— I can explain what it is. That insulation is— it's like one fiber that's continuous. Okay, and, um, I think it's called Apex. I'm not— don't quote me on that one though. Um, but they have it in their sleeping bags, and their sleeping bags are amazing for the same reason. And so they've just developed— yeah, they don't do a lot of clothing, but they just have made some puffy Pants and also this Lost Park Parka, so the jacket style out of that insulation, just because it's unique in that way. It works so well. It will not lose its loft even when it's wet. So yeah.

What other gear other than that?

If we're talking backpacking, man, shelters. I'm pretty big in the shelters. I'm a shelter geek. And I really like Hilleberg, um, for some applications. They are not appropriate for everyone, but for what I do, man, the Hilleberg Akto is an amazing piece because I spend a lot of time real, real high in the Beartooth specifically, which can get very windy. It is, especially on the plateaus up there, it is not uncommon. We're talking, you know, perfect weather time of year, August, July. Um, you know, and it can be 60, 70, 80 degrees, but you'll get these little freak windstorms up there where you're hitting 60, 70 mile an hour gusts, and that happens with regularity. And, uh, so if your shelter isn't built, uh, correct, it'll get peeled right off the mountain when you're sat in some of those really exposed locations.

And— That would be a problem.

Yes. So specifically for me, when I'm chasing, like, Golden trout or brook trout or big cutthroat or whatever. Some of those locations are real, real high up on the plateau and they're very exposed. And so I just end up setting camps in what would be normally not ideal locations for exposure. And those storms will roll in in the afternoon and they'll just crush you if you don't have the right stuff. And I've had some pretty scary experiences with shelters that are normally by most people's standards and for most applications, considered very sturdy and more than enough. You know, you go to your REI and they're going to tell you this thing is, you know, all you'll ever need. Well, it is for the way that most people do things.

Right.

But, you know, once you start taking things into some of those more extreme conditions, things change a lot. And I love that little act as a one-man. That was just an— it's an enough space. It's comfortable. You're not It's not a coffin. You know, it doesn't feel suffocating in there. I can, I can hang out in there in the aft— you know, for an afternoon if I'm getting pounded by a storm and not feel like I'm going insane. Um, you know, it's got a nice little vestibule to store boots and pack in. It's just got all the right stuff and it's bombproof. I mean, I've had that thing out in well below zero temperatures and late season mule deer hunting with more than a foot of snow on it. No problems, no collapses. I've had it in 70+ mile an hour wind gusts, no problems.

Nice.

That thing's pitch Right, it's, uh, potentially a lifesaver.

So any other gear that you would take with you no matter if it's winter, summer, backpacking, hunting, etc.?

Well, I mean, there's like— I guess there's all these gear categories, and inside of each one there's pieces that are my favorites, but I mean, um, which I wouldn't leave without. So there's a handful, but, uh, I guess we could talk stoves. That's something that a lot of people aren't super familiar with unless they've backpacked a lot.

Yeah. What stove do you normally take with you?

Yeah. So, I take one of two. And, this is a decision that's based on weight and then conditions. And so, my all-time favorite is the MSR Reactor, which is a very high-dollar stove. It's incredibly efficient with its fuel use, gets real hot, but it's bombproof, man. I mean, That I've had— I have actually 2 of them. I have a backup and then one that has been my companion for several years, and that first one has been beaten. It's taken so much abuse, I can't even believe it. Actually, on that hunt I was telling you about, one of those days when I was sitting up there watching that dumb mule deer, and, uh, well, actually that very smart mule deer, uh, I was making some coffee in that thing and I finished it and there was some Big gusts of wind and it kind of blew it over. I didn't even look. And then I turned around, I don't know, half an hour later and my stove was gone. And like the top portion of it was still sitting there, but I was backed up next to some pretty big cliffs. And that canister with the stove part attached to it actually got blown and it rolled backwards off that cliff. It was like a 150-foot cliff.

Oh wow.

Bounced clear down. It took me like an hour to find it. I had to go clear underneath and finally found the thing hung up in a tree. So I had bounced clear down the mountain. I was like, this could, like, this is bad. I mean, this could end because I'm relying on that thing for heating up my coffee water, which is a luxury, but I get away with, but it's heating up my water for my freeze-dried meals, which is like my big, my major caloric intake.

Yeah.

You know, for the day. And so it's like, this could actually potentially end my hunt and I can believe it. I mean, that thing's all bent outside of its bent, like little guard parts all bent up. Fires right up. I mean, I still use it. It's fine.

Yeah.

And the other thing that those things can do, which, I mean, this is really extreme use, but there are places where you don't have access to water that's not snow. And so you have to melt water and there's a certain technique to it. You put some water in the stove and you boil it and then you add snow to the boiling water. And, um, and then you, when you, once you've melted that snow, you pour it out, but you don't pour it all out. You leave some of that hot water in the bottom and then pack Got it. That stove is extraordinarily efficient with that technique, above and beyond any others I've ever used. And I didn't come up with that one. I read and learned about that one from other people who have tried that with many, many different stoves. There's certain places, especially in Alaska and sheep hunts and real high elevation stuff, when that's like the main way you get your water. And so those guys, they all say that, that that Reactor is hands down the best at that particular technique, which I have used many times. So.

So the Reactor stove, it's a fully integrated stove. integrated piece where it has your, um, your main canister along with your fuel and everything. Um, do you ever take different cookware with you, like a pot or pan or something like that, and any other type of stove?

Yeah, so my other type of stove would be a little bit more conducive to what I would call like a camp cooking style food. Um, and it's actually my super ultralight setup, which, you know, it is what it is. It's lighter, uh, quite a bit lighter than the Reactor and more compact, but I don't trust it as much. And it's definitely not as good in the wind. So I just, I make the choice depending, like I said, depending on conditions and what I think I'm going to run into, my water sources, etc., etc. If I'm trying to be super, super weight conscious, I'll take the other one. But it's, um, I've used it 2 different ways. I've used it with the MSR Pocket Rocket 2. I've also used it with the Soto WindMaster, and I like both of them. I, I don't know if one is better than the other. I think they're both probably pretty solid little stoves, and it's It's not a kit stove. So, this is one I've pieced together. So, I use a Toaks titanium 750-milliliter pot. That's my canister essentially and it's lidded. And then, that thing is actually designed, it's sized so that one of the little 4-ounce fuel bottles fits down inside of it. So, I can put that 4-ounce fuel canister upside down in the bottom of that Toaks. And then, there's just enough space in the top above that that I can stick one or the other of those 2 stoves I mentioned. And so, and then throw a lighter in there, and then that makes my little kit. And it's real, real light. And then I've built some little padding pieces to keep it from rattling around, which is just one of those things so it doesn't rattle in your pack, which is kind of nice.

What's your thoughts on having just a flat lid for your pot as opposed to one of the pan lids? I know some people, they'll try to use it like as a double broil or something, but in my experience, You hardly ever use that.

Yeah, I, I don't think that I would. I don't see a scenario where I would use that. Um, so with that setup, and to answer more of your question too, um, you know, I've— I use it. I'm pretty tied into the freeze-dried food stuff. Like, I try to keep my food pretty simple in the backcountry because I'm, I'm just going too hard most of the time to want to spend a lot of time on it. And there's some good freeze-dried options out there. So really, my cook systems are tailored to just boil water for coffee and to boil water to put in a freeze-dried food bag. But that being said, that other style of stove that I was telling you about, not the Reactor, that one burns too hot too fast. Like, you're not— it's good for boiling water and really nothing else. It's so hot. Like, if you try to cook spaghetti in that thing or like even ramen, you know, you could cook ramen in it for sure, but Like if you tried to get fancy with your cooking in that thing, you're, you're just gonna burn it. It's just so hot.

Yeah.

But that other one, so the SodaWind Master or the Pocket Rocket, you know, there's a little bit more flame control in there. And, and with that style, I have done some, I've done some cooking. I've actually made some of my own dehydrated meals where I'm rehydrating them in there and, you know, doing kind of low and slow style heat to them. And it works, you know, it's fine. Or going on the cheap, you know, back in the day before I could afford freeze-dried meals, like I would just go get those like, uh, 1-minute rice packets and, um, you know, cans of tuna or cans of like chicken. That's probably like so full of preservatives, it's not even funny. But anyway, and I just dumped that stuff into one of those style of cook stoves and, you know, heat it low and slow and get it down, you know. It's not gourmet, but it works.

Cool. Jake, let's do a pocket dump. What do you have in your pockets right now as far as your general everyday carry?

Boy, I'm running pretty light right now. Went to church this morning, so I'm actually not— I'm not carrying. So I have—

What would you normally be carrying with you?

Man, work in construction. I don't, I don't carry a handgun very often. I have one in my truck. Um, but like, if I'm going out and about in town, I'll normally carry— I carry a 43X appendix in an appendix holster and a Benchmade pocket knife. And that's kind of my standard. I don't get too fancy with it.

Yeah.

Um, my fancy carry, if— which is not really on my person But I'll, I'll throw it at you, is my truck bag because I work out of town quite often. All right, right now I'm doing a ranch development project, and so I'm 40 miles from home. And, um, so I have a pretty robust, like, get-home style bag, you know. It's, it's got, you know, a super lightweight stove set up in it, some freeze-dried meals. Like, it has everything that I would need and some technical clothing and change of socks and some stuff and technical boots and the handgun and all that stuff. And Like a breaching axe and some of those little things. Um, but that has everything I would need to walk home from work, you know, which I figured would take like a day and a half if I did it, you know, nonstop, just cruised. So, um, got it. That's pretty robust, you know, that's got a lot of stuff. And I, and I change it depending on the time of year, you know, I, I change the clothing out when it's wintertime. I have winter appropriate gear and Summertime, more summer-appropriate gear.

Cool. So you mentioned, um, Kifaru and Hilleberg and MSR as far as companies whose equipment you really like. Any other brands or companies that you feel like are doing just a great job when it comes to product quality, maybe their positioning, their conservation initiatives, anything along those lines?

Hmm, man. There are some that I can highly recommend the quality of their gear, but not so much some of the other things, partly because there's a lot of companies that are pretty anti-hunting in the outdoor space, which I find to be very unfortunate. Like Patagonia would be one of those companies. Their gear is very high quality, makes some really good things.

Which is interesting because Yvon Chouinard, like, he hunts and fishes.

It's so dumb. It's— I did— blows my mind, but it is what it is. I, you know, I, I kind of hate it because I wish I could recommend their gear to people more. And I do sometimes, and I even use and have some of their stuff, but I, I always get this little, like, you know, when I go to recommend something to someone and I think of a piece of their gear, I always think and go, is there something else from someone else I could recommend in its place? For that reason, you know. Uh, so man, I mean, you listed some of, some of my favorites. I mean, Kafari is a special company in a lot of ways. Um, they make everything in America, and they're not assembled in America, they are made in America. They're textiles.

Hard to find that.

Everything is built, made, put together, sewn in America, and their prices reflect that. But man, that's something I'll pay for all day, and the quality is Fair. I mean, it's just a different level.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I didn't answer your question very much.

No, I think that's good. Jake, is there a book or books that have had a great impact on your life?

Oh man. Yeah. I've read a lot of books in the outdoor space and the stuff we're talking about. Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzales is a mind twister. It's basically the psychology of survival situations. And it's told through the lens of a lot of the survival stories that people will be familiar with already, which is really cool. That one, man, we could talk for hours about that book. But that one changed— that one actually fundamentally changed some of my decision-making processes in the backcountry. So that's a big one. I love Louis L'Amour, man. I grew up reading Louis L'Amour's. Those have been formative for me from a cultural standpoint, I would say.

Yeah, great. Do you have a favorite podcast you listen to regularly?

I have certain people that I really like that go on different podcasts, and so I tend to follow those people around and just listen to them on whichever podcast they go on. So like Robbie Denning is one of those for mule deer. The guy's the master for hunting big mule deer. He's unbelievable. Diony Amuchastagi is another dude who's not well known at all. He's like a social media ghost, but that guy kills. What he does on big mule deer is so impressive. You know, he doesn't. He's not the guy who's on the front of Eastman's magazines, but you know, he's hunting public land. Over-the-counter type tags and killing 180-plus-inch deer every year in Idaho. It's unbelievable. And he's so smart about it and his approach and technique. And, um, yeah, he's worth— he's only on— he's only been on a handful of podcasts ever, but that stuff's gold if you're into hunting mule deer. Um, yeah, I mean, Cody Rich's podcast, Rich Outdoors, um, I feel like he's a very good interviewer. I love it when You know, again, I don't, I don't listen to, like, I do not listen to every podcast, but the people that I know that I like, when he, when they go on his show, he does a really good job of interviewing them. So I would guess that he does a good job with everyone else.

Great. Jake, we're about out of time here. Uh, but what is one final piece of advice that you would give to our audience?

Hmm. To your audience. Come out west. Just find a way to get out into the mountains. You'd like do it once. If you've never done it before, you've got to do it once. Um, and when you come, I highly recommend, you know, like Yellowstone National Park. That's great. It's cool. It's beautiful. I live close to there. Um, It's worth seeing once, but if you were going to come out here one time to experience what it really is in the mountains, don't go to Yellowstone. Don't go to a national park. Do some research. There's tons of resources online now in forums, whether it's in hunting forums. You don't have to come out here to hunt. You can come out here on a backpacking trip, but you can use that information to get out and really experience It's public land at its best in the wilderness, you know, in these mountain ranges like the Beartooths or the Wind Rivers, or there's all these little ones too that people, you know, never even think about, but there's— or talk about, but there's peaks that are, you know, 10,000 feet in them all over the place. And they're beautiful and they're gorgeous. And it doesn't have to be overly planned. It doesn't have to be, you know, get yourself a gear list together. And come out and get out into the mountains in a really organic fashion one time in your life. And I think, you know, maybe you'll go home and say, never again. But I think for a lot of people that are into this stuff that, you know, you guys are into, I think it'll change your life.

It's great advice. Jake, thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. Where can people learn more about you and some of the guiding services that you're doing?

I hide, man. I have no social media. You cannot find me. No, Man Through the Wilderness event, that's really the only place I exist online. And, you know, if you're interested in that, if that sounds like something that you're you want to learn more about, um, the best way to reach out. Well, at this point, honestly, the best way might be to reach out to you, Seth. Um, and because we have a website, we do have a website, it's called wildernessevent.com. And, um, but it's really, we're changing that and adjusting it based on, you know, the events that are coming up. So you can check it out. Um, But like right now, we don't actually have any open availability because the event that we're planning for that's coming up here in just a couple months is getting— it's not open anymore. So there's going to be more in the future. So it's worth checking back on that. But yeah, at this point, I'm a bit of a ghost online.

Got it.

Sounds good.

Jake, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And thanks everyone for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. We'll see you next Wednesday.

Thanks for listening to the Rewild Gear Podcast. You could check out the show notes for today's episode at rewildgearpodcast.com. If you're ready to spend more time in the wild, our line of high-quality, Minimalistic outdoor gear can help you do just that. Check us out at rewildgear.com.