19: Using football as a tool for hope and sharing one legend’s story

Foreign.

Welcome to the Becoming Bulletproof podcast. I am your host, Tracy o'. Malley. I'm a mom to millennials, an author, Enneagram expert and multi million dollar entrepreneur, and master performance and business coach. I've gone from rock bottom to building a bulletproof business and life. If you're looking for the unfiltered transparent truth and ethos, an extra kick in the ass, you will discover that here. Each week, I'll be bringing you success stories of high level entrepreneurs as we discover how they became bulletproof and created their empire. You'll learn the story behind the glory along with Enneagram inspired truths so you can ignite your own purpose, profits and build your legacy. It's time for you to become bulletproof. Buckle up. Let's go.

FOREIGN.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Becoming Bulletproof podcast. And today's conversation is very special to me. I'm bringing you one of my closest friends in the entire world, which for some of you, that might be a surprise because I don't talk about him too much publicly, but I met Mr. Tony Manderich, gosh, it's almost seven years ago now, which is unbelievable to me. We had met, ironically, through someone that neither one of us really like very much currently, which is hilarious. But, you know, I believe that even the people that challenge us the most and stir the pot the most in our lives definitely bring gifts. So before you start being pissed that there are certain people that just rub you the wrong way, know that there's a package in there somewhere that's about to deliver a gift. And that relationship delivered one of the greatest gifts of my life, as frustrating as that person was because that gift came in the package of Mr. Tony Manderich into my life. And, you know, most people know him as, you know, the big huge football player, Packers. I know my Chicago friends. I know I'm good friends with a Packer, which is hilarious, but there is so much more to the man. The legend that, you know was on the covers of Sports Illustrated magazine's you know, first draft pick as an alignment in a pool of, you know, like, legend, like Deion Sanders and people like that. But there's so much more to him than football, than even his addiction story, which has been very, very public. There's so much more to this beautiful human being than most of you know and, and you know, him and I have been talking here for about 45 minutes before we even hit play. And him and I have shared many conversations over the last seven years about real life shit and Stuff that most people wouldn't talk about, or even if we tried to talk about it with them, they wouldn't understand. And the minute I met Tony, our souls knew each other. You know, we grew up in different parts of the world. He was in Canada. I grew up in Chicago. But there is definitely a familiarity. Familiarity, however you say that damn word between us. And we knew right away that we were safe with each other. And I met him at a time where I was in my first year of sobriety, and I hadn't been around sober people, and I was trying to navigate what that looked like. And at the time, he had just under 20 years. He was at year 18 when I met him. And, you know, being public with sobriety, he was modeling that for me. And that, you know, even though it was part of the story that I was afraid to talk about at great levels at, you know, huge magnitude, even though back then I was not much of anybody that anybody knew about, but I knew that that wasn't necessarily going to stay that way. And watching him navigate, talking about his own recovery and that radical fucking responsibility and personal inventory that he takes on a daily basis, not perfect, for sure. And how that part of his story has become public in a way that actually serves the greatest good. And, you know, him and I will both say, you know, selfishly, we do tell the story to keep ourselves accountable. I think it helps being public sometimes because we've put it out there, and before we lean into those kind of things, we know that it's been public, and, you know, with great risk of putting it out there, there's also a great reward, too. And we. That means we have people cheering us on and some people hoping we fail. I mean, let's just be real. But when I met him, I knew I had a friend for life. And for the last seven years, we've shared hard parts about our lives and, like I said, things that we don't talk about, probably with most people. And when I asked him to be on the podcast, he didn't hesitate. We're going to talk about things more than football and more than addiction, but real life, shit that a lot of us really need to hear. You know, he's just over 50, and I'm close. So it's this point in our life where we realize we've lived more than we've got left, and we start to really look at what's important and how can we be better, to live out our life the very best that we can, not just for ourselves, but for everybody that we care about. And that's not easy when you've got decades of shit shows underneath your belt like we both have. But I know that his beautiful heart of service, his willingness to be vulnerable at levels that most of you may not even see, has made him one of my best friends in the world. And I am so grateful that he is in my life, and I am excited that you all get to meet him through me and Tony. Hi.

How are you?

Thanks for getting me choked up before we even start.

I know. It's how it rolls here, you know, that's how we always get choked up when we're around each other. We just get it.

That's how we do it. We put ourselves out there, so. Because not just like you had mentioned.

We do carry a responsibility. I mean, we put ourselves out there when we were sloppy, falling down drunks.

Or whatever the addiction was, and.

Right.

But then all of a sudden, we get. People get cautious when they're in sobriety.

You know, And I think it is important not to put. Not for somebody to put themselves out there, maybe in their first year of sobriety, because they're still building foundation, but once they're solid and doing the deal and whatever, whichever way, they found the solution and if they're happy, then, of course, carry the message. That's the whole point.

It is the whole point.

That's the whole point. And like you mentioned, I mean, I'm 53.

Football was not the point. Football is the tool.

To carry that message. And it's not just the football players or football at any level. It's. That's just my tool. Because of that, people knew who I was, but they didn't know the story. So now. But the story as your story, pretty much the same. Everybody qualifies. There's no niche of people that don't. That won't get it. Everybody qualifies. Everybody's affected by it, even if they're not it. Mm.

So you said it so beautifully. Like, you see the glory, but you don't know the story. And that this, like, the real story is, you know, all the stuff that people don't see. And I know you grew up in Canada in a small town, and, you know, you're gifted physically. You're built to be a football player. And I know your brother John was, too. And he. You're raised by. You were raised by two parents that were Croatian immigrants, right?

Correct.

And how. And you and John were. How many years apart?

We were five years apart. He was born in 1961. And I was in 66.

And for you two to grow up with your immigrant parents, what was that like in that? And why Canada? Why'd they go to Canada?

Well, it was. It's funny because they take the boat, right?

Yeah. To Canada.

And they had a choice to go to Staten island in the 50s or to go to Canada on the east coast of Canada. So where they were taking in immigrants in Canada is really not that far from Staten island. Probably maybe 2, 3, 400 miles, whatever is just above Maine. The only reason it was Canada was because there was already family that had immigrated over to Canada a year or two prior. And really that was the only connection. So you got to think, even back in the 50s.

European and even, I will say Canada seems to carry. And it's like an unseen thing. It's like a non tangible thing that you can touch, but you can see the importance of family.

Like, when I grew up, there were no stores open on Sunday. Nothing. You were lucky to find a gas station open. And you know, back in the late 70s, I mean, the gas station wasn't like they are now like a Circle K or whatever where they have everything in it. You go groceries, shopping, almost gas, you could get a pack of gum and that's it. So Sunday. And the reason they did that, the government, I mean, the government obviously declared it because it was against the law to be open on Sundays, was because they wanted families to together. That was one of the big motivations. But even today, when I go back and I haven't been back since, you know, my mom passed.

You can just see the difference. There's a difference. And it's hard to explain what it's like, but there's a difference. And I've lived most of my life in the U.S.

You know, still Canadian citizen.

And.

The older I get, the more I realize.

That.

And it was in the wizard of Oz when they said there's no place like home. Mm. It's true. Mm. And the U.S.

I mean, I love and has been so good to me. I mean, the opportunities. And not that Canada wasn't. Canada was awesome and lots of opportunities.

But for what my niche was and what I was going for as a goal to play professional football, that if I was to play professional hockey and if that was the goal, I was in the perfect place.

Right.

But mine was football. And it required.

Going to the US to give myself the best chance possible.

But it pales in comparison.

To.

Like some of the stories.

That they went through.

Yeah.

For sure.

And I think that, you know, I know how it plays out from about 17 on when you move to Ohio and start the football. And obviously, yes, that career, that part of your life, was very good to you. And it's also where you crashed and burned and where you had to come to terms with a lot of it. And I think that there is such an innocence to growing up where you grew up, where you grew up. And I think when we are living out our lives, especially at the ages that you and I are, it does come full circle. And the goal is to get back to that innocence of, like, what's really fucking important. And I think that as we evolve in not just sobriety and that relentless, rigorous honesty that we have to have with ourselves to maintain that as we age, we're also seeking that as well. And there is no place like home. Even if it was hard, like my home was hard, it still hard. Yet there is no place like it. And so, you know, and going off when you're 17 to live in a new country, you know, in a small town of Kent, Ohio. And I know that town very well because my. One of my closest friends grew up in Stowe, which was right next to Kent.

That. And with your brother, thankfully he was there, right?

Kent State.

Yeah. So there is a lot of grieving that even just bringing that up, it's. It's hard because as we continue this journey of life to be the best version of ourselves, we can't help but think what we left behind. And not just, you know, as a parents, as business owners, as football players or whatever that is, to really look at this journey called life. And what does it all really mean? At the end of the day, it was never about fucking football. And you and I both know that. And actually, in a lot of beautiful ways, it was a gift. Not for the notoriety or the money or the recognition. It was a gift because it accelerated the need for Tony to be really fucking honest with himself.

And that's like the gift of the pro football career that you had. Would you agree with that?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

So you end up playing football in. In a small town in Ohio, in high school, you get draft or you get picked up by Nick Saban at Michigan State. Right. And.

So what does that look like? And you know, obviously your. Your addiction story is very popular and public. When did you notice? I mean, you and I both have talked about it, and you and I both still carry addictions that aren't substance related for sure. Sometimes it's pride and ego and I mean daily. Exactly. All of us are addicted to Something, I'm a firm believer of that. When was the first time that you remember leaning into something outside of yourself for whether it was to keep yourself safe? Because I think you and I, this is where you and I are very similar. Like we don't want to fucking rely on anybody for anything. And so that's where that asshole kind of like front that we, when you and I aren't well, we can go to.

And I'm sure that was early on, something done, right. Do it yourself.

Right.

Don't depend on people that's kind of.

Like let us down. Right?

Yeah. And that paradigm is self sabotage in a lot of ways for sure.

Where was the first time, where was the first time you remember realizing that if you needed help from somebody, that that wasn't a good thing?

When I got let down, I mean like when I, when, when asking for help was neutral, it wasn't a good thing or a bad thing, it was just the way it was just part of life. And I think being let down, not everybody's gonna be let down, but if you continuously get let down and then some of them will be more severe than others and it's the severe ones that affect you and then they get confirmed by the small ones that no, this is a natural law on this planet. Don't, don't, don't put, you know, your trust in other people. Okay. Not a good paradigm, you know, especially your heart.

Right, right.

So. And that took a lot of, you know, there was, there was.

I knew this.

And it may not have been somebody letting me down, but I did know this. If, if you can imagine being 16, 17 years old, and even though the US and Canada democracies very similar, but yet very different.

You know, leaving home at that age, making a conscious decision, pulling out a piece of paper at 11, writing down your goals. And then as those five years go by and as I'm done in the middle of my third year of high school in Canada after football season, realizing.

They don't come up here to watch people play like the scouts. So. And my brother had come up with the idea of, threw around that idea of why don't you come down and finish your senior year at Kent State, live with me. We had to go through the court system because my parents had to sign off guardianship to my brother. And you know, when I think about that, and I talked about this the other day with somebody.

Probably for the first time in 20 years and now the second time.

Think about the sacrifice he made.

Because he was big man on campus, Going into his senior year, and he was a football star, and he was a first round draft pick in the Canadian Football League. And he.

Wanted.

As a sibling, a younger brother. He wanted success for his younger brother.

That he sacrificed, you know. Oh, your younger brother lives with you. You know, like, you know, at college life. Right?

It's.

And I think to myself.

That'S not a small sacrifice on his part.

Those in. Those stories, to me, aren't talked about very much. They don't create headlines. But. But.

They def. In my.

They're defining moments.

Like, they define your legacy. They define who you are, they define what you're made of. Because he. I mean, even. Even if we want to be devil's advocate and say, okay, well, what did he have to gain from it?

I mean, you know, monetarily, nothing. And like, he. He could be with his brother. Like, you know, but it was like, why would you want your younger brother, as a senior in high school, to live with you?

Do you know why? Because it goes back to what you just said. Like, the US Was being very good to him and all of that, and he was big man on campus. But like you just said, there's no place like home. And you were a piece of home.

Well said.

You're a piece of home. And it is a huge sacrifice. And I know, like, with all my being what your brother means to you, even though he hasn't been here for, gosh, what, 27 years now? Almost.

Yeah.

93.

Yeah. So you're in February, right?

February 8th. Was that. He passed away.

So you're living in Kent, Ohio, and then off to Michigan once you're picked up.

Michigan State. Michigan State.

Of course, Michigan.

I wouldn't want anybody to be confused with.

No, I know, I know. The green ones, y'. All. Michigan State. Michigan State. Take notes. It's Michigan State. And you go over there, and when's the first time that you stick a needle in you for steroids?

It was after.

Football season, my freshman year. Like, that January. So I was in, you know, I was in camp in August. Cause we would get there three, four weeks before school started. So campus is huge. 55,000 enrollment. Beautiful campus. And.

You know, I'm a kid from Canada, and I'm looking at the camp and the stadium. 80,000 people. It's like, this is, like, surreal. And.

When you get smashed in the face for the first time in practice, it's surreal. It's not good. It's like, we're in the big leagues now. It's like at that time, this Is the Big Ten.

Yeah.

It was awesome. It was awesome. But I remember there was a moment that.

It was the third game of the season. We were playing at home. It looked like I was going to get red shirted. And so I could literally do everything but play. I could practice, I could dress for games, I could do everything that a starter would do. But if I play one play in a game, it negates my red shirt year. And basically the red shirt year is for a year of development and just ease. And sometimes they don't red shirt, sometimes they do. We're playing Notre Dame third game of the year at home. So now Notre Dame is like. Notre Dame is like the Green Bay of. Or the Chicago. I mean, look, Chicago, let's not kid ourselves. Huge tradition. Huge. The hall, the packers, you know, the Giants have the Cowboys, unfortunately.

Yeah, I know. We don't even have to mention them. Yeah.

But it's kind of like.

Standing on the sidelines going, oh my God, this is Notre Dame. Like, these are the Fighting Irish, like the ones you watch on abc, you know, or cbs. Because there was, you know, ESPN had just, maybe just started that. And I saw Mark Bavaro, I don't know if you remember the name, he was a tight end, had a great career with the Giants. He was played at Notre Dame at that time. And.

So I got to see him up close and he was in the game and I'm watching him on the sideline and he made me look like a child.

He was as tall as I was and he was about 40 pounds heavier.

And he was in phenomenal condition. His arms were huge, his shoulders were broad, you could just tell. And he could run. And he was big. He was almost like a Gronkowski. That's a good example of. Except more muscular. A little bit more muscular. And I thought to myself, I literally remember on the sideline thinking to myself, I'm in trouble because if that's the competition, even though I wouldn't play against Mark Bavaro because we're both on offense, if that's the competition, I need to up my game.

So.

Football season is very taxing, even if you're not playing on Saturdays, so you're getting beat up in practice and all this stuff and you're pulling double duty and all this. So my plan was, come January, when the semester starts again, actually wasn't even that. It was go home for Christmas for three days, see mom and dad.

And then.

Drive right back to East Lansing, Michigan, which was only a five hour drive from where I Grew up.

And I was in the weight room between Christmas and New Year's.

Why I felt like I was behind.

For reasons like American coaching, American high school football experience, all these reasons. And I was like, I need to catch up. And then when I catch up, I need to surpass. Now, this is all in my mind, right? This is how I think.

So that's why I was like, you know, there's no reason to lounge around, hang out and party with my friends back home in Canada. After three days of seeing mom and dad, being with the family. So I drove back and started.

Started taking steroids, injectable and oral. And.

It didn't get, like. I definitely got stronger and bigger and a lot better. I ended up starting the next year.

But. But again, that starting part was a decision based on. That was like one of the decisions or slivers or spokes in the wheel that I talk about. Spokes and the wheel that make the hole of where I'm going to go to school at that point. So the offensive tackle or guards at Michigan State were juniors going into their senior year, my freshman year. So I have a better chance. I'm not going up against, like, a guy who's in my position, who's a sophomore, who's already an All American. Like, I'm not. I'm just not going to play in his spot. They might move me to another spot. But. So those are little details, and those are, you know, multiply those by 100. Like, there's all these details I take into consideration when making a major decision like that. And so I did get stronger and from the steroids.

You know, look, steroids work. They work extremely well.

There's a lot of things that people don't know about steroids but will make public judgments and convictions dig their heels in on them.

And I don't condone the use of steroids.

Do you think that using the steroids, because obviously, like, playing football, like, allows you to and get reinforced that it's okay to, like, take out your anger through beating the shit out of people on the field. I know that's why my son loved football at the time in his life is like, he could be angry and the field and it was actually condoned and celebrated where, you know, in his personal life, like, he was having these same anger feelings, but no outlet to do that. Did the steroids help with that even more? Because obviously you had some rage in you like you always have. And, you know, you and I both do that. And were you immediately hooked, like, not just for the physical, the performing, the competing. But was there also an emotional outlet that those provided too?

Or was it the gateway to other things that would, you know.

I don't know. I don't think it was the gateway. Although I think it is a gateway for some people. Like I think, in my opinion, strictly my opinion, I think marijuana is more of a gateway. That's just the society, the way I grew up.

You know.

And again, that's just my opinion. And I'm not saying that people that smoke marijuana are bad. That's just my opinion. The psychological effects from steroids are 10 times as good as the effects are physically that people can see. Psychological effects, you can multiply by 10 and that's just throwing out a number. That's probably my experience. That's pretty accurate. So. And not all steroids make you angry. Definitely are some that do that make you. What I always used to say when I take this one, like I walk around looking for a fight. So I have no business taking that one. Even though it works great, I have no business taking that one because there's a lot of different kinds you can take.

But the psychological effect of, I think that affects like, you know, you can see the strength physical effect, but that also affects you mentally and emotionally because you're like, I'm getting stronger, I'm more confident, my self esteem is better, I look better, I perform better, I can hit harder, I can do all these things. And then the big effect is when you get off of them.

So you go on for like you did them through Michigan State. Obviously you're well, like we all know what happened with your career in 1989. You're the first round draft pick, you know, above guys like Barry Sanders and Deion Sanders and like Andre, you're the first round in the Sports Illustrated cover and all that bullshit. So now like in your head, not only are you physically and emotionally and whatever addicted to your now you got to up your game even more going into the NFL and Green Bay, you know, the tundra of like it's, I've been there and there is nothing like it. There's nothing like Green Bay, Wisconsin and that town and how serious like the whole entire freaking town shuts down on Sunday. The entire town, nothing is open unless they sell alcohol or food.

Exactly. And now and all this reinforcement that this is actually probably what I need to keep doing, right? And so you go into the NFL, you're high as a freaking kite. The people are predicting great things from you. And we go from the incredible bulk to you know, the shit show.

Yeah. So, I mean, you've told me stories about like stuff in your jock with needles even and playing because, you know, the only place you could go was to the bathroom on breaks and you had to have it close handy, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So you're doing that.

It's crazy. Like how. It's not crazy, but it is. Right. How the lengths will go to. To not feel correct and to take things next level. And in the middle of all that, your brother passes away.

Yeah. The timing is like.

Right.

It was like the perfect storm timing. If. If you want to. It is going to the doldrums of life. Because I got released in 1992 after my contract pretty much got kicked out of the league.

Yeah.

That was.

January of 93.

And February 8th of 93, my brother passes away. Now, we knew he had cancer. It was diagnosed as Terminal 4.

So that happens like in a five week period.

And, you know, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking to myself, how is this happening? Like, five years ago, I had the world in the palm of my hands. And.

Then a year after that, my parents divorced after 40 plus years of marriage. After. And then I. After everything that they went through, escaping communism, being like duck. Like crossing a river that's neck high in water. And.

Like, you've seen shows like Hogan's Heroes where they have like the gun turrets and the big light spotlights, you know, flashing to make sure prisoners aren't getting out. And like my mom and dad, you know, their early 20s.

Timing it out to duck their heads under the water when the light crosses the. That part of the river.

Mm.

So I know, like between losing your brother and then your parents divorcing and you're kicked out, out of the NFL and you're, you know, even through your brother's sickness and death, you're still like using at high levels even with the losses you've experienced. And I know my parents were divorced when I was older too. And I'm like, it does something. Like it was everything a fucking lie.

The foundation is rocked. And like, in order to rebuild the foundation, you have to level it completely and take it, like, rip it apart. And that's kind of what you were faced with between those two losses. Three losses in a very short amount of time. Like the loss of your childhood as you knew it and what you thought it was based on. Your parents, divorce, the loss of the one person that has always had your back, that understood you more than even your own parents. And the loss of the dream at 11 years old, when you were writing that on a paper. And I know, and you and I both know this, that for us to really be willing to do whatever it takes to change our life, sometimes it requires such levels of pain that most people would never talk about, let alone ever wish to experience. And even though that perfect storm was.

Grueling and, I mean, obviously you lost your brother and all of that, and. But it was. It was almost. And I felt this way about losing my dad and you losing your brother. It's almost like their life. And they sacrificed their life so we could live ours. Because you wouldn't have gotten sober, I wouldn't have gotten sober without that reality check and perspective shift. And I know that your brother is so fucking proud, and so is my dad. They never got to see us do what we're doing today. But I know that that perfect storm, there was some sacrifices that people that cared deeply about us, like they were sacrificed for that. So it took about almost exactly two years after John died that Tony decides, I need help. It was March 23, 1995, that you got sober. You decided that I was going to at least take this journey. And Michigan. You walked into a center, didn't you. Didn't you shoot up that morning, too, and then walked in, Was it.

I was. Well, I. A year prior to that, I had this brilliant idea that. I know I'm taking oral painkillers and injectable painkillers.

The steroid use was all college, no steroid use in the pros because their testing was so sophisticated at the time.

Right.

So in the pros, it was all painkillers and alcohol and injectable painkillers. And I was mainlining it. And so that morning.

Sitting at a breakfast place like. Like, similar to like a Denny's in the town in Brighton, Michigan.

I had a bottle of like 90 painkillers.

And.

I took.

Eight to 10 of them.

And they were capsules.

I took eight to 10 of them. And I remember getting coffee, sitting down and.

Ordering breakfast, knowing that after breakfast.

Driving almost across the street for admissions. And I. After I ordered breakfast, I grabbed the pills and I walked over to the bathroom in the place. It was a restaurant called Elias Big Boy. You might know it as Midwest. It was just called Elias Big Boy. It was a breakfast place.

And it was one of those bathrooms where you could lock the door and just be the only person in the bathroom at one stall or whatever. I locked the door and I.

Opened the bottle up and I.

Did what I. It's incredible. I Willingly.

Dumped them out into the toilet. And, you know, hundred capsules. Like, the prescription bottle is like, a little bit bigger than your average one, but not huge. But it's like I could. I could watch them slipping out of the bottle into the air, into the water, into the toilet, and dissolving because they're made of gelatin, right? The COVID.

And I remember the two words that I said to myself. I'm done.

And so I dumped out, like, 80. Looked at them, washed, just stared at them, watched them dissolve. And I was good with it. I was like, I'm good. I flushed the toilet and went back, ate breakfast.

And went to the Admission, you know, across the street. And my wife at the time was dropping me off.

And I remember, like, it was yesterday when my hand hit that door and it's March and it's cold in Michigan, and it was like a. Like one of those industrial commercial stainless steel handles. And I looked at her and I said, the fun is over. I said, I'd rather be a boring sober person than a miserable drunk.

So, you know, like, when you said, I'm done, you know, I'm sure there's other parts of your life. You said, you're done. I'm done. I know that many of you listening right now have gotten to a point in your life where you said, I'm done. Yet we usually say it because we're in such a moment of pain. We just want the pain to stop. And then the pain wears off. And all of a sudden, I'm done turns into, well, maybe next time.

And I know with it'll be different there it is a different done. I get it. How do you. How can you tell? Because there. I mean, there are other areas in my life. I've said, I'm done, and the next thing I know, you know, I'm belly up to, you know, buttercream and bacon all over again. Right? Because the pain wasn't great enough and the wreckage wasn't big enough. And you said, you're done. And this March, it'll be 25 years that you'll have under your belt. And I know that when I got into recovery, too, I had no idea how insanely honest I was going to need to be. I didn't realize, like, I think that you and I both realized how easily it got to lie to ourselves as well as it was to other people. And I know over the course of 25 years for you and eight almost for me, that I'm still unpacking places where I would lie to myself. And continue to. And it's just a new layer of this personal inventory that we take daily. This rigorous honesty that we apply daily. This, you know, half measures avail us nothing. Like, we're all in every day on it.

How does somebody that, you know, I have a lot of people that talk to me about recovery and lots of things. And it's not the substance that's the problem. It was never about the painkillers. It was never about the steroids. It was never about even the ego and the succeeding and the football accolades. It was never about that. And I don't think we realize that when we say we're done that what it really is about is this underlying hurting and lack of connection and no tools how to deal with any of it. So you go into recovery, and now it's like, fuck, this is not what I thought this was. Yet you stayed all in. What is that? Like, how does that play out? Because I know for the next few years. Well, at least full year, like they say in that first year, don't make any big decisions. You know, like you said, don't publicize what you're doing necessarily. Especially somebody like you. Probably was hard to hide that. Don't get into new relationships and all the things. And a year later, Indianapolis picks you up after four years of not being. Playing football. How does that even happen?

More importantly, how does sobriety happen?

Right.

That's the impossible.

That is the impossible.

It was impossible.

The emotional sobriety, too. Like, not just from substances. Like, you live this emotional level of sobriety every day. I mean, there's some areas in your life that aren't as good as others. Let's just be real. Same here.

There's some areas in my life that are as bad as they can get today.

Right? Right. Same. And, you know, you go back into the NFL almost like it was the first time you ever went. Because you've never gone in with clear eyes, clear heart, clear mind, and without the ego attached to it and not the. They're going to have to fucking deal with me because I'm different. I'm fucking Tony Mandarich. Like, you're not walking into Indianapolis the same way you walked into Green Bay.

I'm like, I'm grateful even for the opportunity to play.

Exactly this humility.

I was thorough. I burned all my versions.

Well, they say we need to be thorough, right? Yeah. In that inventory we take.

Just like, they didn't mean it that way. Right. It's like. But it's. It's. And you know this. You and I are so much alike in so many areas, but we're so different in so many other areas.

And it'd be boring if we were identical. Right. It's like. But there's certain.

I will call them virtues that you and I share that we will dig our heels in on no matter what.

And that's the thing that matters as you get older. And it did matter when you were younger. You just didn't realize, or I didn't realize it. It always mattered. But, boy, as you get older, do you realize that's what it's all about.

Yeah. As the masks come on and even the.

Validation we're getting and our ego's liking it, like, the more that we like. Yeah, but that's not important. Yeah, but it's not important even. Like, we didn't even know it was. But as we dig our heels in and start uncovering these virtues and the realization that, wow, we did mask that, whether it was with a substance or whatever.

Because it could be food, it.

Could be sex, it could be gambling, it could go or.

Yes, all of it.

Yeah. Yeah. And a hundred other things, and some at different levels at different degrees. And I always come back. I always come back to, does it make my life. Does that certain one make my life unmanageable?

And I've. I've had people ask me, because, I mean, I wasn't, at least in my substance use, at rock bottom, but emotionally I was at rock bottom. And I even had people say to me, you weren't that bad. You aren't that bad. I'm like, no, My definition of what's unmanageable to me is different than yours. That's all that means. Like, to me, unmanageable is being Jekyll and Hyde every day and not knowing what I'm going to be because for somebody who craves control and my posture, when I put that in my body, I don't know what's going to happen. And that, to me, is unmanageable. Right. I haven't wrapped myself around a tree or hurt somebody physically at least. But unmanageable to me is different than that. And I think for those of you listening, whether whatever you're dealing with, you know, codependency and enabling an addict is an addiction. And there's many of you that are playing that, and it is unmanageable if you can't sleep at night, it is unmanageable if you want to puke every day and you're doing all of that, so it's not Just the one who puts the substance or does the deal. It takes. It takes an army to keep somebody in addiction. Let's just be real. It is.

So you go into Indy, you're humbled, you're grateful, you play, you do well. All the things you finish in the NFL. I think it was 1998, so almost 22 years ago. And, you know, there is life after the pads come off and the helmet comes off and sobriety and. And how do you navigate a life as a sober man? You know, by then you're what, late 20s came back?

I was, I got sober at 28 and then in the NFL at 29 and retired at 32.

So there's a lot of life to. Yeah, you've been out of the NFL for 20 something years now, and your whole identity was football.

Yeah.

So I know with sobriety you had, this is where you, you had a few steps ahead of most people that go through that experience because you were humbled. You had this rigorous honesty for a couple years now. I mean, by then it was five years under your belt when you retired. But it's still challenging when identity is shifting, even with the tools of sobriety. So going into adult, adulting in the real world as Tony Mandarich.

What does that look like?

Well.

And how do you, how do you decide what you want to be when you grow up?

So, you know, for me, the. Probably one of the most dangerous things is time on my hands.

I've always, you know, if I'm doing something, if I'm focused on something, it's all, you know, I'm all in, consumed. It's, it's. I don't want to say it's the way I'm wired, but it's the way I'm wired. And can that change? Yes, it can change. That can be conditioned to change through tools, you know, but there's a certain core of everybody that is always and will always be that person. It's just a matter of if you result from search.

Yes, Google.

Thanks, Siri.

For me, it was.

Turn the vices, the extremes, the compulsions into virtues, channel them into virtues. Now you're going to have a school of people that say you're a workaholic. Okay, well, you don't get pulled over and thrown in the workaholic drunk tank for working too much. The question is, does it make. Does my work make my life unmanageable? Am I away from my family too much? Am I away from the kids? Am I away from my wife and kids? Am I away from.

That'S where I start to do my checklist. I don't have to. And I can do it at the moment, in the middle of the day, in my head, I can be like.

Why do I feel the way I feel? And I don't feel anything, but I know I don't feel great.

So why am I not feeling great? Because I don't know why. I need to figure this. I need to find out why. What am I struggling with? What is eating my lunch, you know, who's taking my lunch money, what's going on here. And that helps break it down and segment things because I'm more type A personality, more structured, not as much of a perfectionist as I used to be, because I've realized that my perfectionism, or wanting to be perfect as I got older, was more of a hindrance than a benefit.

So this is where you and I are going to be so much alike. And I know this part of the conversation is going to really, really help a lot of people. So where you and I do better without too much time on our hands, because the crazy train can come, park itself in our head, and isolation, we know where that can go, right? But when you said, like, you need structure and that. And I do, too, because it's certain. And we were not going to be blindsided by something and an area that you and I both struggle with, it's going to be till we are, till our time on earth is done. Is this level of intimacy. And I don't just mean like, with a partner of love. This is with our children. I. I have just recently realized that I wasn't even allowing myself to be intimate in giving of my all to my children at some level, with friendships. And I think when we have, especially with as much time as you and I have under our belt, anything that breaks that structure puts that at risk. And we know if that's at risk, what can happen. And so maintaining relationships with people.

Gets really challenging, whether it's with sometimes our children and how we communicate or lovers or parents or family members or friendships. And it's so ingrained in us that we don't even realize it's happening when we're communicating sometimes. And it goes back to that need for that structure. I mean, our life depends on certain structures.

That's all football was, that's all softball was. It was structure. Right? Tell me what to do and I'll do it the best.

And it's. And it's how I survived as a child in an alcoholic home, that was unmanageable and uncertain every fucking day is. I controlled everything else to maintain that. And so when we're talking about intimacy and giving yourself freely to somebody, whether it's a friendship, whatever, in a moment where you feel most vulnerable, that's where real connection happens. And it's an area of our lives, both of us, that we're gonna continuously need to work on. And I know it's not just limited to those of us that have sobriety under our belt or. I mean, this is an epidemic, a lack of intimacy. And I know. And for me, it's been the last year that I realized this about myself because it became so autopilot for me. I know it is autopilot for you, based on our conversation earlier, that you don't even recognize when you are putting this wall up. And when we put this wall up for people that we love more than anything, that we take a fucking bullet for, like our children. Right? Mine too. But we still have this wall up. Even with them, it's like, then what? We don't have tools. I don't have tools for this. And the best way to do it, which goes against everything you and I stand for, which goes out of structure, out of certainty. And that means we let ourselves be completely vulnerable. Not in an attacking wall, putting up way, but, like, I'm hurting. This hurt me. I don't know what to do with this. Can you help me? Can you hold space for me? How do you navigate this? Because I'm still learning. It's scary as fuck. Like, there. Like, I don't. I don't. I'd run into a burning building before. Before I would allow myself to be vulnerable emotionally. Right. And I know there's many of you listening, that that is scarier for you too, so. And I know you're not perfect at it. I certainly am not. But I'm willing to try it every day because I know that you, with all the work you've done and my work, I don't care if I'm right anymore. I just want to be the most effective communicator, especially to those that I care about. And that sometimes means eating a huge, huge plate of humble pie. So as you're navigating what intimacy looks like for you, and the more rigorously honest you are with yourself, where do you notice you fall short in that still and always have to come completely like, fuck, I gotta keep doing this. It's frustrating.

One of the things we touched. One of. There's a lot of. One of them is what we talked about earlier, lack of trusting people, which was a block for lack of intimacy to people.

I literally have hundreds, like, I'll even venture to say thousands, not like tens of thousands, but thousands of acquaintances all over the country and especially here back home, especially, you know, I mean, thousands of acquaintances. And.

I have very few friends.

But. And I think a lot of people just. And it's just a linguistic thing. I think people throw the word friends around very loosely. Like they throw the word love around very loosely.

So for me personally, there was a definition that I changed the word friends to what it really means. For me, I just changed the word to pals. And I got it from a movie from Young Guns, Billy the Kid. Even though they were outlaws, even though they were American folk heroes.

He talked about having pals.

And.

He'll even go into description in little parts of the movie. Somebody that will die for you.

It doesn't matter what the motivation is.

Somebody that.

Can call you at three in the morning and be in New York or be in the Ukraine.

And you don't even pay. I'm in trouble. Okay, where are you at? I'll be there asap. I'll keep you posted. As soon as I get something booked immediately, I don't need to know what the problem is. This person is that close to me that right this moment I don't need to know the problem because they're not going to call me on something that's not that serious.

And then if that happens as, you know, if logistics and you get your plane ticket and you get it arranged, then pick up the phone again and you call and say, okay, be there at this time what's going on.

And try to start. So.

I have very few pals, a lot of it by choice. A lot of it. Because.

I think. You know what? I think I've said this a few times, but that second Sports Illustrated cover.

Mm.

Someone would have to be a downright in denial or a liar to say, yeah, it didn't affect me.

You know what I'm saying? Because, yeah, of course it affected me. It was four years after the one where they were glorifying you, you know, or me, whatever.

But also, I have to remember something.

They're the ones that said it in 1989, and they're the ones that are trying to save face in 1992. And it's their opinion and it's their magazine so they can write.

It still hurts.

It still hurts, right? And it still hurts. And a lot of it is of my own doing my self sabotage. So.

I think that that is one of those catalyst things that I've never really talked about. I've talked about it a few times, but that was like one of those jumping off the. Jumping off place, the crossroads, where it was like, that was an impact.

That was an earthquake, emotional earthquake. It wasn't a tremor. It wasn't. I will get over it. And I feel that. That. And this is obviously going through some professional.

Through some professional help with therapists.

Not for that reason, but digging deeper and deeper and finding out that is not just a reason, but a big reason. I'm not good enough.

You are not good enough for this. Like, which now I translate. So I'm not good enough for anything or anybody.

Correct. Right.

I'm a pos.

Right, right, right. I think in intimacy, it's not that. Like, I had a friend called me out on this a year ago. This is how recent my, like, awareness of how big my walls were because, you know, I'm pretty open and vulnerable and all the things on my terms with my arm put out to here. You'll get close enough where you actually think we're great friends in air quotes. Right? But at the end of the day, like, fuck, no, you're not getting that close. Nobody will. And it was about a year ago that a friend said that to me, like, I'm trying to be your fucking friend right now, and you won't let me near you. I'm like, what do you mean? I really didn't understand what she meant. And like, you and I talk differently because we have that.

But yet, even with you, like, with everybody, up until the last year, my own children, the wall was up to a degree, right. Like, it could get past the wall. But then there was a moat, and nobody's getting around the moat.

The ace and the hole.

Exactly. So I know as you navigate this, and of course, because you're all in, when you're told you're not good enough, you assume it's everything. That includes even in relationships and. And not just of the romantic kind. Right. And that's something I want everybody to hear it. It's all relationships. We carry this in through everything. It seeps into it. And I know as you are navigating your 53rd year here on earth, like it's a continuous process and it's a frustrating as hell one. Right. So what do you do to, like. Because you take an inventory every day and. And all the things. Right. You're relentless about it. What in that area is something that you need to continue to be Mindful of to not necessarily be right like. Like you did back when you were drafted. And everybody's like, you're fuck you, I'm Tony fucking Mandarin. Right, Like I know you can do that in relationships. I've. I've seen you, right, I've seen you pull that card. And, and I do it in a different way, but it's the same and it's just to keep ourselves safe. So how is Tony moving forward going to allow himself to maybe not be completely safe, but effective in communicating and intimacy and all that? Because I know that you have wall even with me and we're pretty damn close, right?

So how you moving forward with that? I know, I'm still learning it. I'm sure you are too. Or what advice would you give to someone?

I don't have a wall.

I don't have a wall with you.

No, you'll just hide out from time to time.

Yeah, but if I'm ever asked something.

No, I know.

I give you my truth. Maybe hard like it may smart, but I.

But there's that inner voice that says, yeah, but this is Tracy.

So you can tell Tracy anything and even though she doesn't agree with it, she won't judge you for it and she'll give you her opinion on what's best for your well being.

So.

You'Re not one of those.

So that being said, because I feel that way with you too, yet I've had a hard time doing that with other people in my life. Like what was it when we met that. Okay, I can. It's. She's safe.

Like your resilience, okay. Was one of them.

You know, there's. You have chemistry with a person, right? People have chemistry rapport.

With like, you know, I can be like, you know, a big brother to somebody who doesn't have a father in football or whatever the case may be in the community, whatever the. It doesn't have to be a partner relationship as far as an intimate.

We had good chemistry right away and it wasn't a sexual chemistry. Okay.

Right.

Now that doesn't mean that.

I told you I'd be transparent.

Okay, I know, you're so funny.

But that never happened, right? And it was like it was just. It just naturally never just went that way.

Right.

And the more I got to know you, when I would see you periodically here, there, groups, group meetings, or this or that or it doesn't matter what the function was.

And watched your growth and watched you evolve and watched you change.

I had. I know how hard that is to do And a lot of people do it. So it's not like you and I are like these special savants that we're like got the cornerstone on that. There's a lot of people that do it when I see it done and if I'm lucky enough to see it when it's bad. At the beginning when I met you, not even a couple weeks, over maybe.

A couple months, like very few months.

I mean, you probably just started, stopped shaking right from the withdrawal.

You know, I didn't have like the physical withdrawal, but the emotional withdrawal I had heavy.

Your head will still be foggy and stuff. You think it's clear, but it's foggy. And so when I see somebody walk through the middle of the fire.

It's.

It'S, it's. You know, the one word I always attach to things like that are resilience. Because it's not easy. And just because you're sober, life happens. The only thing that the 12 step program guarantees you is that if you follow these steps, we guarantee you sobriety, we don't guarantee you an income.

But they say obviously the side effects are you now become employable, now you become productive member of society. Those things will happen naturally. If you take, well, the physical drink or the physical drug or whatever somebody's taking is the, or call it a chemical, that's not sobriety. Just removing that, that's physical sobriety. And that's where that old cliche of, you know, if you have a drunk horse thief and you sober him up, what do you have? You have a sober horse thief, he still steals horses and it's wrong. He probably does it even better because he's sober.

And he's not covering up. Which story did I tell this person? Which story did I tell this person? Which cover up lies. So.

As time has gone on.

My road has gotten narrower on what I can do or can live with and what I can't live with. Meaning self destructive behaviors.

Cheating.

I'm trying to think about other examples, but it's like I can't do that anymore. Why?

Can't sleep at night? You had mentioned it earlier. Or having a hard time sleeping.

And I'll be specific to cheating.

Is 20 minutes worth, 20 minutes of pleasure worth all that shame and guilt that you have to carry?

And it's not even in the same ballpark. No, it's not. It doesn't matter how long her legs are or how beautiful she is or how pretty she is or it's not worth it. And then you start to ask yourself.

What Am I about?

Who am I?

What are my convictions? What are my beliefs? What's my belief system? What will I fight for? Who will I fight for? Who will I die for?

And that's just some of the questions. And those are hard questions. Like if somebody, you look in the mirror, you ask yourself those questions. If you flippantly answer them, there's not much thought that goes through it. I mean, it's just. It's a time thing. It takes time and it did for me. And you know, the things that I could do three years ago, I can't do today.

Correct.

Because I can't live with myself. That's not.

The example I want to be of sobriety.

And that's not the example of I want to. Of what I want to be as a person. And that's not the integrity that I want. That's not the character I want. I don't care about reputation. They can't say anything more about me.

Right.

So I don't care about reputation. It doesn't, it. I don't want to say it doesn't affect me, but it doesn't affect me. It really like you can say what you want. It's like I'll just delete. I mean, you know, it's like I just don't spend time with the naysayers. But I am, you know, I.

The roads gotten very narrow the older I've gotten and. Am I a saint? No. Have I stopped cheating? Yes. Which for me it's a big deal. For you it's one of the biggest deals.

Right.

It's like one of those. Everybody's got like one or two or three or four or five. Like major ones. Like for me, that was a major one. Am I proud of saying that?

I know you're not, but it's, it's the truth.

It's the truth though. And let's call a spade a spade.

And I'm calling a spade a spade. And I'm. And I just like. For the sole purpose of. Yeah, that's what I used to do. I don't do that anymore because I've gotten tools and I've done enough self searching. Where. When did it stop? I couldn't tell you when it was going to stop. I couldn't tell you the day or the week I was going to get sober until I did. I knew it was going to stop when the pain outweighed the pleasure. Like you had mentioned earlier, the emotional pain is a huge catalyst for me. And until I have that emotional pain of. I can't bend over to tie my shoelaces because I eat some Dunkin Donuts every morning or whatever. You know, I'm just an example.

Or whatever the case may be. I can't walk around the block because I smoke a pack of marble ores a day. Whatever it is that's eating your lunch until it becomes painful enough, there's nothing anybody can do to change you. They can give you their suggestions.

And, you know, and.

So many people tried to help me in Green Bay. I mean, there's probably a misconception, and I'm sure there was a misconception of until I had said it publicly in that E60, that there was so many. So many people from the front office to teammates, to fans, to people that I knew that did my dry cleaning. Like when I'd walk in to get my dry to the local grocery store, some of them that.

Would tread very carefully and be like, hey, do you ever. You know, without trying to insult me and be like. And try to do it as gracefully as possible, But I just wasn't, hey, you don't understand. You don't know who I am, Right? It's like, well, you know, I am. I'm no different than anybody else.

I think what you said earlier, and I know for those of you listening who may be in a season of your life, that is a shit show, or it's hit after hit after hit, just like Tony had. And, you know, from 92 to 95, I mean, there was a short span of a lot of hits. And for me, 2012 was like hit after hit after hit. And I know there's many of you listening that are in that kind of firing range and you feel like you are the main target for all of that. And I want you to use this conversation to know that maybe that is just creating your perfect storm for you to make the move to not necessarily be that lone wolf all the time and say, you know what? I need help, and I'm done. I'm done doing things the way that I've always done because I keep getting what I've always got. And my friend, my real friend, Mr. Tony Manderich, I love you so deeply, I would take a bullet for you. I care so much about, you know, this conversation and how it's going to help people. I mean, that's why we carry the message we carry. That's why it was never about football or any of it. It was to help people set themselves free. We can't do it for them. Nobody could have done it for us, Lord knows people tried like you said. But if you're listening and this resonated with you and you feel like you just are getting the shit kicked out of, you know that these things that are so hard, even currently him and I are both experiencing really painful things in our lives. And we both can recognize as painful as it is, that there's going to be something beautiful on the other side of it, whether it's our own growth or something different for us or whatever that is. And use our stories as a glimmer of hope to know that if we can do anything like this, anything is possible. And so my friend is such an honor to call you friend and thanks for being here today. I love you so much.

It's been my pleasure. Thank you for even considering me on having me on this. And I mean you are that one of those friends or pals as I refer to in my life.

And you know.

Staying in people's, people staying in their stuff, it's like what do you have to lose by something different? I had nothing to lose anymore because I had lost it all. I lost myself. So.

It'S just a matter of. And you know what? You and I don't have any. We both have carbon, oxygen, water, H2O, whatever you want to call it in us. Everybody's got made of the same stuff. Everybody can do it. It's just a matter of doing it. It's just about when it becomes painful enough doing it. And I think a lot of people don't give themselves enough credit on how much resilience and strength they have inside themselves. But anybody can do it. It's just a matter of giving yourself a chance and doing it. And I love you and I'm grateful to be part of this.

That was beautiful. I love you so much.

Thank you for tuning in to the Becoming Bulletproof podcast. If you learned a thing or two from our show today, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it and tag me so I can hear exactly what landed on your heart. This will help me to bring you even more episodes with the topics and guests you want. Please head over to itunes and leave an honest and loving five star review. If this made an impact on you, you can find me on Instagram tracyomalley and I have tons of free resources for you@traceeomalley.com as always, if you are wanting to ignite your purpose, profits and build your legacy, it's a time to stand on the front line of your life and do the work. Let's become Bulletproof.