291: Enhancing Management Skills and Team Dynamics with Enneagram with Tracy O’Malley

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I love any assessment that will help me better understand myself and others. These tools give us insight into human nature and how we're all unique and different, even while having some shared consistent preferences. So this week we are exploring the world of the Enneagram. A warm welcome to Megan K. And Jenny F. To the modern manager community. Today's guest is Tracy o'. Malley. Tracy is an Enneagram Expert Success coach. Her journey of self discovery via the Enneagram sparked an enlightening shift in her perspective, which has since been a lifeline to many. She uses this transformative tool, uniquely focusing on understanding motives and fears to help individuals feel seen, heard and valued, consequently leading to personal and professional transformation. Tracy and I talk about the Enneagram as a tool for greater understanding of yourself and your team members. She shares an overview of each of the nine types, how we can use this information to help us grow into our best selves, and how managers can apply these lessons to better connect with and motivate their team members. And in the extended interview available to members of PodcastPlus, Tracy explains how to use the knowledge of the Enneagram to help your team collectively work together and whether there are natural complementers or opposites to each of the types. Now here's the conversation. Are you a manager, boss or team leader who aspires to level up and unleash your team's full potential? You're listening to the Modern Manager Podcast and I'm your host, Mamie Canfor Stewart. Each week I explore effective strategies and provide actionable insights that supercharge your management abilities, optimize team performance and foster a healthy workplace culture. Become a rockstar manager and help your team thrive@themodernmanager.com.

Thank you so much for joining me today, Tracy. I'm super excited to talk with you about the Enneagram. This is a tool that I have found Followed from afar, but never actually engaged with myself and we've never talked about on the show. So I'm so excited for you to illuminate this tool and how it can help us as managers be effective leaders.

Well, buckle up. It's a heck of a ride. Once you kind of drink the Enneagram Kool Aid and you understand the beautiful power and compassion and understanding and perspective shifts you can have with it, especially with management and leadership.

You'Re forever changed by it.

Why don't you start with a high level kind of what is the Enneagram and what are the different types or buckets you can fall into once you've done this assessment?

For those of you newer to the Enneagram and you might be thinking like, I don't need this. This is one of those Woo. Things that is a little weird. Just know that when I was introduced to it 12 years ago by my therapist, I basically used very, very colorful language and telling her my displ tendencies towards these things. And I wanted nothing to do with it. And so if that is, you just hang in here with me because it is next to my faith, like the number one thing that has completely helped me transform my life in the last 50 plus years. So, you know, I just kind of want to, you know, if this is something new to you or you're not into these trendy little quizzes and assessments, just understand that this goes way deeper than the little snippet I'm about to share with you personally and professionally. So how I like to explain the Enneagram because I assume most people want to understand what's in this for them. You know, I believe we are gifted with this divine intuition and this. This vessel of a body, and we're here to do great things in this lifetime. But often we have been dropped into situations, experiences, families, circumstances, cultures, you name it, that can alter the authentic expression of who we are and kind of get in the way of honoring the divine intuition we've been given and all the signs the vessel in our body is trying to tell us. And when we default out of those things, we have three centers of intelligence, which kind of makes up the framework of the Enneagram. We do use all three, but one is our default. Our go to our natural strategy based on our core Enneagram type in the way that we perceive the world, right? And so when we default into our centers of intelligence, more of us, more from a survival technique. This is where parts of the personality and the behaviors start to show up. But those behaviors come from this core motive and this core fear. The motive is like if we reverse engineer every single thing that you or I do, there is a very common theme. It might be clouded by other things, but if we really do the six degrees of separation to get to what's at the root of why you do what you do, it's pretty much the same thing. And when those parts of our personality come out, that is survival behavior driven, usually it's there to protect the core fear of each of us. Now, when we look at the framework of the Enneagram, there's nine different Enneagram types. And those are basically the nine different ways in which we view the world. And there's not one that's the best or better than the other. They're just very, very unique. And the biggest aha. I had was I only believed in, understood, spoke to my lens in which I saw the world. And although it's a very important one, right, it's valid and very important. But I was closing down my understanding, my compassion, my connection with eight other different types of people. And that was my biggest aha. Especially as a mom, you know, now to some 20 somethings. But back then they were early teens and I recognized that, wow, there's eight other ways in which people see the world and I could learn something from them. And also, no wonder, no matter how well intended I am, it's not landing on the hearts and the minds and the souls of the people I'm here trying to lead, whether it's personally or professionally. So the Enneagram can give you this beautiful framework. Language, understanding, and desire to get to know and learn from other people. Now, as far as the nine types, I'm just going to go really quickly to. To the core motive and the core fear. It's way deeper than what I'm about to share with you. But again, this is about why we do what we do, not what we do. And that's why a lot of the online assessments are inaccurate 65 to 70% of the time because they can't see through some of the behaviors, but I can. So for an Enneagram one, they are in the instinctual center of intelligence. Like I said, there's three of them. The Enneagram one is in the instinctual center. So they are very much what is happening right now. Their core motive is by being right and good. Everything that they do is to be right and good. So there's like not a lot of gray area for these people. Their biggest fear is being wrong or not good or not righteous. So they're called the strict perfectionist for a reason. The Enneagram too falls into the heart center of intelligence. So they're motivated by a form of significance and what has happened. They're very much people that operate through what they feel, right? Their biggest motive in everything they do is to be appreciated and loved for who they are. So this is their superpower, but also their kryptonite. And same thing for each Enneagram type. The same thing that's your superpower can be your Kryptonite. It's just mattered. It just matters that the come from is from love, compassion, empathy, service and grace. That's when it's your superpower. When it's coming from fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, or ego. That's when that same thing that makes you freaking amazing can also like be a wrecking ball in your life and in your relationships. So for the Enneagram too, being loved and appreciated is their core motive. Their. Their core fear is not being that, right? So they can be overcompensating over giving things like that. The Enneagram 3, the competitive achiever. The 2 is called the considerate helper. The 3 is called the competitive achiever. They also are in the heart center of intelligence. So they do also operate based on feelings. However, they don't wear them on the sleeve like the Twos do. Okay, still feeling centers still operate on feelings, but their core motive is by being the best and achieving greatness in what they do, what they achieve, or how they appear in the world. So where the two finds their significance and what they do for other people, Threes do it by how they perform form in the world. Their biggest fear is not being the best. So although we admire them, we think it make they make everything look easy. They see goals, they hit goals, and nothing stands in their way. That's great. And the Kryptonite in that is they'll pretty much plow through anything to get it, including their own health, their own relationships. Right. You know, if. If you think about each of the fears of the nine Enneagram types as like, it must happen. Otherwise, like, it's their tunnel vision. You can see where in extreme cases where this can be really destructive in our lives. For the Enneagram, for the intense creative, or the individualist or the romantic, they also are in the heart center of intelligence. Their significance comes by being their true authentic self. In this lifetime. They are the artists, the creatives, the storytellers, the comedians, the fashionistas, the foodies. You know, and they're motivated by being their unique self. And as long as they're in that little bubble, they. They do it well. But the minute they look up and start compari themselves to the world, that's when this starts to go sideways and they switch it up and they. They sometimes wake up like, I don't know who I am anymore. Which is one of their biggest fears. Their biggest fear is not finding their place in authenticity in this world. And it can be pretty dark. For an enneagram 4, they're probably the hardest to type because there's no two fours alike alike. And usually if you've taken an online assessment and you've gotten another type, but you're a four, that happens all the time. Very rarely does a four come up on one of those online assessments. For the Enneagram Fives, they are in the thinking center of intelligence, so they operate very forward. What could happen? What do I think about this? But how these next three types go about that can look really, really different from each other. The Fives are motivated by having wisdom, knowledge, and resources. That's how they gain certainty. So certainty is the root motive. What that sub root is is wisdom, knowledge, and resources. They're called the quiet specialist or the investigator. So they're probably typically the most introverted on the Enneagram because they prefer to gather that certainty in their little bubble, gathering intel. Their biggest fear is being intruded upon not having those information and resources, not being prepared that way. So they can go down the rabbit hole big time. But once they know something like, you need a friend like this in every corner of your life. Seriously, in very specific topics. I have, like each bucket of my life, there's a five that kind of lives in there because they're experts. Whenever they. They commit themselves to something, they're expert. The problem is, is they don't want to deplete their resources, so they kind of hoard their own wisdom. So knowing how to work with one of those, that's how you'll get the best out of them. The Enneagram 6 is called the loyal Skeptic. They're the master troubleshooters. Their form of certainty is motivated by a need to be prepared. You know, they are the worst case scenario thinkers. It's why they're amazing troubleshooters, strategists, collaborators, because they have thought about 10 different ways things can go sideways and a plan for each of them. You know, they have lots of questions all the time. And if you don't know this about Them, it can feel very controlling or untrusting. But when you understand what's at the root of this, you. You can know how to facilitate them a little bit better. Their biggest fear is a blind side. And so they aren't quick to quick to trust. But once they do, there's nobody that will have your back. Like a six for the Enneagram Sevens, they also are in the thinking center of intelligence. They forward think all the time, but their certainty comes in the form of freedom, options and availability of everything at their disposal. That's how they kind of go about having certainty. They're called the enthusiastic visionary. They're probably some of the most underrated for what they bring to the table. Because people look at them as just like a lot of fun, adventurous life of the party. I'm raising one of these. She is why I needed to study the Enneagram. Because I'm like, I don't even know how y' all function. However, their unique perspective on which they see the world is like they believe anything and everything is possible. Now how they go about it, who the heck knows, right? But they want to believe that their certainty comes in the form of freedom and choices. And if you try to box one of these guys in, you will lose them. They can chase shiny objects a little bit too if they're not careful. Their biggest fear is being boxed in and told they can't do something. And as a parent, this was a really important thing for me to learn how to be a wordsmith with her so that I didn't create a disconnect with her. And also she's. She's honestly my greatest teacher. Like Sevens can be some of the most wise, innovative people in the world. Steve Jobs was an enneagram7. So like outside the box thinking. I think the world could use a little bit of that. For the Enneagram Eights. I am an enneagram8. We are called the protective Challenger. We are in the instinctual center. We are very much what is happening right now and what do we need to do about it. The instinctual center is for. Is motivated by a form of independence, autonomy and control. How an 8 goes about it and where their motives lie is in being strong and being powerful. Now that's a really great thing as long as we're in a healthy spot, right? When an 8 isn't an unhealthy spot, which is where I was learning about the Enneagram. This can be very domineering, aggressive, mean, ultra direct, right? Their biggest fear is being betrayed, violated, or Put in a vulnerable situation. So you can imagine if that's about to happen, you're going to see the spicy eight. Knowing how to lead an eight is very, very important because they're not the easiest to lead. But if you can, they are some of the best people to have in your organization or team or family. And finally, the Enneagram 9, last but not least, they sit at the top of the, the framework of the Enneagram, also in the instinctual center. So very much what is happen? What do I need to do about it? Independence, autonomy and control is at the root of what motivates them. But they find that in the form of creating harmony within and in their environment. Their biggest fear is conflict. So unfortunately, where they get kind of twisted in this is settling for short term harmony, but it creates a long term problem. So the real work for leading and loving and being an enneagram9 is understanding that finding a healthy relationship with conflict and will be really, really good for you to create the long game harmony you so desire. So that is the nine different ways in which we all see the world. And kind of, I'm sure as you're listening right now, you're like, yeah, I don't ever think like that, right. And you probably have somebody in your life that does and, and maybe there's a little disconnect and how do you build that, that bridge to connect with them and learn from them.

This is such a great overview of different ways to see the world and also to think about what's important to you and kind of what, as you started, is that core driver and kind of peeling back the onion. And I was listening, I was like.

Ooh, which one am I?

And there were definitely a few that I was like, felt like they really resonated. So I'm wondering, obviously, like, the best thing to do would be to like work with you and go through a process, take an assessment, have your team do that as well so you can really all have the same understanding and language of each other. But I'm wondering, you know, aside from that, are there ways that we can appropriately try to understand ourselves or our colleagues so that we can use this, you know, starting tomorrow? Hey there, Mamie. Here, just a quick and exciting update for all of you who are enjoying the Modern Manager podcast. The Modern Manager membership community is getting a minor makeover and it is now called the Podcast plus Membership. And you can sign up for it and join a community of managers determined to do better every day. You'll get full access to our Slack Channel sketchnotes with key takeaways from each episode, all types of guest bonuses, and the members only podcast, which is ad free and has extended interviews. So you get to hear the answers to my juiciest questions without interruptions like this one. Sign up today for $15 per month at the modernmanager.com more. Can't wait to see you there.

Yeah, and you know, for the first five years I was using it like I wasn't saying, hey, I'm into the Enneagram. Can you take an assessment? No, because like it's, it's not going to work. Even with my own children, I didn't do that. And so when I talked about the centers of intelligence, first, if you just kind of focus there, this will help you tremendously. And it won't feel like you're trying to label somebody either, because what you might see, especially in the workplace, you're not going to see people's most vulnerable things. But if you can get really, really curious about what makes this person tick or yourself even, and understanding the three centers of intelligence, that will help you light years and trying to like, I gotta know their type of. I made this a really important thing and it made me a better question asker. It made people feel like I actually cared about what motivated them because I was trying to figure out what center of intelligence they fell into so I could have a basic understanding of what motive motivates them, what the fears might look like and the underlying emotion that might come to the surface. And so this will require you to be more curious about people and be a better question asker. And in any kind management, this is how you build intimacy and connection. And when you have that within an organization, the sky's the limit, right? So if you think about the three centers of intelligence, this was really cool because when I was first kind of learning about this and I was building a sales organization, mainly because I wanted independence, autonomy and control as an 8, right? Like, I don't care about, like the accolades, I don't care about the trophies, I don't care about titles. But if it's going to give me independence, freedom for life, like, I will plow through anyone to have it. And within this company, I was thriving. And they started dangling carrots like, if you do this, you can win this. If you do this, you can have this title. If you do this, you can speak on stages. And none of those things. I mean, they're nice. My ego might like it, but that's not the motive of my soul, right? It was the Independence, it was the passive income streams. It was all of that. And so when you're leading people figuring out that like they. They missed the mark on that by trying to dangle things that don't motivate me, right? So you have to know how to incentivize people. So if you look at the three centers of intelligence, like I said, the eights, nines and one, and ones in that instinctual center are all motivated by a form of independence, autonomy and control. Now, behaviorally, you might see somebody that's trying to win all the time, so you might think that's a three or somebody in the significance center. But if you understand which I was mistyped as a three originally because behaviorally I can look very much like a three, but motivationally, no. So eights, nines and ones, independence, autonomy and control don't go off just what, like. Like the initial behavior of what you see. The underlying emotion for the instinctual center is anger. Eights are more explosive. Nines kind of suppress it and kind of shut it down. Ones internalize it. In the feeling center of intelligence, the twos, threes and fours all motivated by a form of significance, right? So they kind of need some validation of some sort. How they go about it really, really different, but it's still a form of significance. The underlying emotion for all three of those is shame. Two's kind of more external with it. Threes shut it down like the nines shut down anger and fours internalize it. But you can feel these energies. You just gotta build this muscle and like being real curious of what you're feeling here with people. And finally, the thinking center of intelligence. All three of these types, forward thinking, what could happen. A form of certainty is what motivates them, right? So they may be ultra performers, but because it gives them certainty, not necessarily significance, right? You see the difference there, but how they all three go about it really, really different. And when certainty is being rocked for a five, six or seven, how they deal with that can look very different. But the underlying emot emotion is fear and anxiety. Fives internalize it. Sixes are more external with it, typically. And sevens shut it down. If you just understand this, this will help you tremendously. And this was my biggest aha. When I was first really learning this, because I'm in the instinctual center as an 8, I have a son that's in the feeling center as a 2, and I have a daughter that's in the thinking center as a seven. And every single time I started talking to them, I was like, well, he's motivated by significance, she's motivated by certainty. Neither one are motivated by independence, autonomy and control. So stop trying to make them be. And how can I speak to that rather than fight against it for five years? This was how I was trying to figure out where people were motivated. Because when you can speak in a way of what's in it for them, to them, you build credibility and trust. And when you build credibility and trust, the relationship gets stronger, the connection is deeper, and where you can take things together is immeasurable.

Yeah, I'm wondering if you can actually build on that and share a story either from your own team or from a client that you've worked with and what, what kind of shifts they experienced once the manager was able to really lead to each person in the way that they needed and by understanding themselves and of how that played out.

Well, I have worked with a team, a couple teams at Google and one of the department heads, she brought me in to a team of like 10 and she is an enneagram one the strict perfectionist. High standards, high integrity, they do what they say they're going to do. Things are black and white. And most of her team is not that way. And although like the high standards are why she is great, those high standards and her ability at the time to only see through that lens was creating a breakdown in her team and organization. Because some types, if they, if they realize they're never going to live up to your standards, they just don't try. And that can be very testing for an enneagram when they're like, they just don't understand how it's not common sense that you just do what you say you're going to do. Things are black and white. But the thing is, is she had a bunch of creatives on her team who live in gray area and she would take it personal or as disrespectful that they wouldn't be so black and white. And when I began to explain to her that you'll get the best out of them when you understand this is the way they're wired and you can learn to speak a little more in gray area, they won't ghost you. They will actually have the ability to be more structured with some higher standards. But if you, if they feel like you don't get them, they won't try. And then it'll be so frustrating for everyone involved. And when she really understood that it was game changer, her high standards, her high integrity aren't going to change. That's who she is and that's why she's great. However, the way that she articulates how we go about the high standards and high integrity in what we do as a team and organization shifted depending on who she was speaking to in her team. And you know, Google had many, many layoffs back in the day when I was working with them. And she was able to retain her whole team as a result of like a cohesiveness of working together. And she was able to keep her team small and do more with less. When you understand exactly who's in your team, what motivates them, what their gifts are and how to navigate their fears, you don't have the turnover. You can do a lot less and have more strength in your team. With a lot less people, especially if they're feeling like they're understood, valued, seen, heard all the things, that was a really powerful one. When an Enneagram one is in leadership, they're natural born teachers, but sometimes their approach can feel. Feel judgmental. It may not be, but it can feel that way. And when like that leader was able to kind of tone it down a little bit, still have high standards and high integrity, but know how to speak with everyone, it was a game changer. So awesome to see. Yeah, it sounds light bulbs. It was like, all right, we got this. And it doesn't feel as personal. Like that's the thing. Like in leadership, when people don't follow what you have led them to, it can feel disrespectful or that they don't trust your leadership. Right. And when we understand that although it may feel personal, it usually isn't and we start to understand that they just have maybe different lenses and different motives. And how do we honor that and speak to that? It takes a lot of this internal conflict and sometimes external conflict within the organization and puts it to the side.

How can we show up in the best version of ourselves, especially with work, you know, stressful. Interacting with your team is stressful. Sometimes you have pressures. So, you know, how do we help get ourselves from kind of whatever zone we're in to the best version of ourselves? Any thoughts on that?

Yes. That's what's cool about the Enneagram, because we're more than just a type. Right. It's not this box we're put in. This is who I am. This is the only way it's going to be. That's not the case. That's where our core motives and our core fears and like our home base is. But the Enneagram is a framework and A system. And there are other types connected to each of our types that we can pull these levers. And even though they might not be how we're motivated, we have these other tools in the toolbox that are connected to each type that when by default, we want to go a certain way, but we know it may not be the right tool for the job. Like as an 8, I can be very aggressive. And although there's times and places where that's the right tool for the job in interpersonal relationships, very rarely is it. And so I have to understand the framework that's connected to me, build those muscles because they're not natural ones. I like to use and learn how and when to apply those. The other cool part about the Enneagram and the biggest aha for me 12 years ago when I was introduced to this, is we each have a growth number or the like the target we're aiming for when we raise our hand and say, I want to be the best version of myself, to whom much is given, much is required, and if you want something different, you're going to need to do something different. And when I saw what the growth number was for the enneagram, 8, it's the opposite of my natural go to. But if I'm here saying I want to be the best version of myself, that's it. At least I can see and know the target that I'm aiming for. And I recognized in learning this that every time I was on the verge of that prior in my life, for the first 40 years of my life, I recognized where I would self sabotage, where I would self implode, even at times, because it feels super vulnerable. But when you're knowing the target you're aiming for, it's a lot easier to hit it. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy or comfortable. But if we're saying we want to be the best leader, manager, version, man, woman, person that we are, we can see the target with the framework of the Enneagram. And then we can start using some of the other components that are attached to me to get there. Because left to our own core types, ways we're not going to do it. It's kind of like building, you know, the supporting cast. You've got this main character energy, but you have this supporting cast within the framework of the Enneagram to help you, you know, win the Oscar award in your own life. But that growth number is kind of like the holy grail of who you are. And it, it seriously, it is so uncomfortable but for me to be able to do the work that I do so intimate with teams and organizations, for me to be the mom that I am today, I'm a great mother. I really, really am. I have to be in my growth number because that's where all my power actually is. And so for each and every one of you, when you're diving into the Enneagram and you're taking this journey, like, you're. You are way more than your type. You really, really are. That's why I was resistant to it to begin with. I'm like, don't box me and don't tell me I'm this, and tell me I don't have a shot at anything else. But when we know how to use the framework, just like a GPS system, that's when you can achieve that. And you know what it looks like, because just saying, I want to be the best version of myself, like, okay, what is that? And for each of us, that's very, very different. So it's using the framework within your. Your type, and that's how we achieve that. And it's very clear. It's very clear. It's. It's. Makes it a lot easier.

We have to wrap up.

I know.

So, Tracy, can you tell me about a great manager that you worked for and what made this person such a fabulous boss?

You know, he was like, the one and only corporate job that I've ever had. Like, eights. Like, I'm emotionally unemployable, quite honestly, in a lot of ways. I'm hard to lead. But he was great. He was the one and only corporate job I had for about three years after I got divor. And he saw past the domineering I was not at the hell. I was probably the unhealthiest I ever was. And he was. He saw through that. He saw through that front that I was putting on and was like, you have all the power. You are a superstar. But if you don't know how to tap into your heart, you're just going to be a bulldozer in this life. Know that I see your power, but you're more powerful when you actually allow people to see your heart. I left that right before I started to learn about the Enneagram. I hit rock bottom after leaving that job, and that's when I was introduced to the Enneagram. But I never, ever forget him. He saw past the power tripping that I tend to lead with sometimes and really saw me and told me it was safe to be in my growth number. I didn't know that that was the language at the time, but that's. That's what he did.

Wow. Incredible. And where can people learn more about you and just keep up with your work?

You can go to tracyomalley.com and get your assessment done there. They're accurate. They're over 95% accurate. All the online ones are not. So if you want to never talk to me but get assessed properly and have all the right information, you can go to my website or if you want to dive in with me, we can do that. I do have a podcast also called Lead with the Enneagram. All things Enneagram and leadership personally and professionally over at this point, 400 episodes you can binge and listen to. I've been doing this a long, long time. You can go there or if you're on the Instagram, you can find me at Tracy Underscore o' Malley Awesome.

Well, thank you again for giving this. I know very high level and kind of just the tip of the iceberg on Enneagrams, but really already I have so many ideas of what I want to do differently now going forward.

Once you kind of understand this and the beauty and the power in this and the way that you can more effectively lead people when you can speak and understand their language. So much fun. Thanks for having me on.

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