EP162: Live Enneagram Typing Session—Reaching Beyond with Kyle D. (Enneagram 2)

Welcome to the Leadership Formula podcast where you will learn the secret sauce behind achieving massive success. I'm your host, Tracy o', Malley, multimillion dollar entrepreneur, your Enneagram expert, master performance coach and mom to millennials. Do you want deep, meaningful relationships to wake up every day with purpose and make money doing something you love? Well, you've landed in the right place. Every week I will teach you how to get exactly what you want in life by strengthening your emotional intelligence. Using a combination of the Enneagram framework, live life coaching sessions and real talk from yours truly, it's time to transform yourself into the ultimate leader of your life. Let's do this thing.

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All right you all, you're in for a huge, huge treat because you are getting a brand new feature to the Leadership Formula podcast. We are here doing a live Enneagram typing session and I thought we would bust the the walls out of this joint with one of my favorite people that I have recently met. He is amazing and a guy on top of it and what's cool about him is I love this about him. He's like, yeah, sounds great. No idea what the hell this is, but you speak so passionately about it. And you speak a language for all my Enneagram people out there. You know, it's like this whole secret language that we speak. If you start speaking it in groups of people, the ones that don't know about it are like, what's that about? I want to learn more.

I'm curious.

I know. And my good friend Kyle Depiast, I love saying his last name. He just taught me how to say it properly and phonetically changing it and all sorts of stuff, because I don't like getting people's names wrong. It's a thing about me. But anyway, we are in a mastermind together, and we run in the same circles, and we have for a couple years now, and we finally got to meet in person this year. And his energy was, no joke, so incredibly beautiful and loving and powerful and all the things. So I was really stoked when he reached out to me. He's like, I want to know about this Enneagram thing. And so we talked about doing a podcast thing, and I was like, you know what would be really cool is you come in here and let me type you live on the air. Because it's been in the works. So welcome, Kyle.

Well, I'm excited. I'm a little bit nervous after that, but I'm mostly excited and I'm so.

Thankful that we're here together and doing this. So thank you, Traci. I'm ready. Let's go.

Okay, so let's give people a little feedback, because I do ask this when I do, like, in person or one on one typing sessions. How old are you?

41.

41 year old, male. Where do you live?

At Ponsford, Minnesota, which is just the northwoods of Minnesota.

God's country. It's beautiful up there.

Yes.

And when is your birthday?

May 13, 1980. So I just turned it nice.

So we got a Taurus in the house. Right. And the reason I ask about that is one of the things about the Enneagram, People ask me all the time, can your type change? In this world of personal development, we're always growing and always changing. And I like to explain the Enneagram as this. It's kind of like our sun sign, our birth sign. Right. You were born in May on that date. You're a Taurus. That's not changing. And we have things like rising and moon signs, and those can change the expression of your Taurus ness. Right. And the Enneagram, we are born with a temperament, disposition, for sure. I've carried two babies in my belly, and their disposition and temperament is very similar at 23 and 24, as it was back in my belly. And so then we're dropped into an environment that can kind of shift how we express our temperament and disposition. And then we also learn some childhood coping mechanisms to make sure we have significant certainty and safety. Right. And so depending on the environment we in, those coping mechanisms can take on a whole different appearance. And so when we do these online enneagram assessments, that's why 65 to 70% of the time, they're inaccurate. But just like your taurusness, that doesn't change. But how that gets expressed can. Just like your enneagram type. So what made you want to know more about this before we dive in a little bit?

A couple things, I think. First, just having a stronger sense of awareness to maybe things that I'm more naturally good at, things that I'm not good at, and maybe where I need help.

Right.

We're asking for. I think you and I connected on this. Like, asking for help is really hard for me. And I think in this regard, if I just have some better awareness to things that, quite frankly, if I just suck at it, okay, I'll just ask for some help and get some help. I think that was a big thing. I think second, too, I can't lie, you have such passion towards this. I'm like, I don't really know what it is, but I see your passion. So I just. I want to get involved in it and I want to learn what lights you up, because there's probably something there for me to learn as well. So I think the way you carry yourself about it and your energy and excitement and passion is just. Is magnetic. And so I just knew I wanted to learn more about it. So that's probably the second reason.

Gosh, I appreciate that. And the reason I am so passionate towards it. I think you kind of know I'm a straight shooter. No bullshit. I can't fake this passion and energy around it. And it's because, like you, I have a hard time asking for help for different reasons than you, I'm guessing. But I really wanted to uncover what that was about because I logically know that we're in this together. And like you, I feel great when people ask me for help. And I'm the first to say, I got this. I'll help you with that. You're the king of it. Yeah, like, you're the king of connecting a bunch of us. And like, hey, I got a guy for that. I got a guy for this. You should try this. Yeah, but you and I both have the hardest time. Or picking up that 500 pound phone. And because I cognitively understood that, but my heart wouldn't let me do it, I really wanted to get to the root of it. Enter the enneagram. About 10 years ago in therapy and rehab and my therapist is like, well, your best thinking has gotten you in this mess. So how about we take a look at this? I was like, well, touche. You got a point there, sister.

Hard to argue that.

And what it gave me was framework that help me understand the map of my soul a little bit and where things kind of get sideways sometimes. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with any of us or that we need to fix anything. We just have to understand where our come from is. And the thing with the Enneagram, and I know your superpowers, your superpowers is the ability to feel, see and understand what people need. Like it is your spiritual gift, no question about it. And when that is coming from love, compassion, empathy, service and grace, it's a beautiful thing. And all engines fire away and it feels really good and you don't feel depleted. Now that same superpower can become your kryptonite. When it's coming from fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, doubt and ego. Right. You can be the codependent over giver who has resentment because don't you see what I'm sacrificing for all of you? Right? Yeah, I know this because I'm raising, I think the same type as you, based on our time together. So I love that my intensity that you just spoke about and that passion is so evident. And it is my superpower, no question. People feel protected, safe, seen, heard, understood. Like if shit goes sideways, OMalley's got it. Like that is my superpower when it's coming from all the good stuff. A decade ago, before you met me, that same thing was like a wrecking ball through everything in my life. Because it was always coming from fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, doubt, lots of ego. So what I love about the framework of the Enneagram is it gives you freedom to be who you are. And you don't have to change anything or fix anything. You just have to get to a place where the come from is from honor, love and compassion. And when we can kind of like reverse engineer how we got here and connect the dots, it really makes this whole thing about beating ourselves up or pulling out the shame stick on ourself almost non existent. The More we flex this muscle and build the muscle up. So, I mean, I still have coping mechanisms I don't like, and they piss me off. But understanding where that got rooted from, it's always been my disposition. But then the environment, the coping skills that I learned as a young child kind of took over and went crazy for 40 years before I had that young child back in me. Kind of say, okay, hey, this doesn't feel good anymore and I'm tired of stuffing my shit down. Can we have a conversation? And although I can't change what has happened or what went on, bringing that part of me back to life a little bit and having an adult to child relationship, like, okay, I know this went one way, but we can learn a new way. Be patient with me. And the framework of the enneagram really allows that flow to happen. And you know, my daughter was 4 years old like your son is. When I realize, oh, okay. I only know one way to kind of operate in this world and it's not going to work for this beautiful four year old. And so 22 years ago was like my, like I need to understand myself and have a little bit more self awareness because I only spoke one way. And it worked with people who were like me and everybody else. It didn't work so much. So that being said, one of the questions that I ask people when they start kind of diving deep with me on this is what isn't working as well as you would like it to in your life? Because you have a very beautiful life. You have a beautiful wife and a child and a life that you have really orchestrated to have it the way that you have it today at 41 years old. And I also know that especially in this growth space, we're always looking for ways that we can improve or something always comes up that's consistent. What is that for you?

Oh, that's such a. That is a big question and I love it. But there's probably a theme that comes up and that would be.

Releasing the control of having to know an outcome. And I mean that from a business standpoint. Before you and I hit record, we were talking about how there's likely a move coming up for us. And I love to know the path and the answer. I don't always have that. And that's really hard for me to just kind of release myself to what will happen, what should happen, what ought to happen, what will happen. I just have a hard time. And even if you look granular from a business standpoint, I've got someone who helps Me coordinate my experiences. And I have a really hard time releasing the control of some of those things to this individual. He's very capable. He's very good. But sometimes I just feel like, well, I think I know the way I want to do it. I know the way I want to do it, but I'm going to have a hard time allowing someone else to do it for me. So I think releasing control in several instances is probably something that comes up quite a bit.

Why do you think that is? Are you worried about giving up control? Because is there a part of you that if I need help, then there's something wrong with me? Like, at a deeper, deeper level? I know that your experiences. And we'll get to. Oh, my God, you guys. Wait to hear what he does. I know your experiences are like another child to you because they're birthed out of your heart and all those things, but at the root of it, if you need help with something, does that mean there's something wrong with you?

Yeah. Or I'm incomplete, or I don't have the answer, or I should have it, but I don't, and something's missing. I feel like that's probably at the root of it. Yeah.

So let's go back to little Kyle for a second. Where'd you grow up?

Random Lake in Wisconsin, which is a small town southeast, in between kind of Green Bay and Milwaukee.

I love Midwest people so much. I am a Midwest girl myself. I just. I'm obsessed with the Midwest people. I can spot us all a mile away.

That's right.

Were mom and dad present for you when you were growing up?

Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Do you have any siblings?

Older brother and a younger brother.

So you're the middle child on top of it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And are your parents still alive?

Yes. Yep.

Still married?

Yes, they are. Yeah.

Wow. So out of your parents, which one, as a child, do you remember yearning for more of their attention or their approval out of the mom or dad, would you say?

For sure dad. Yeah, for sure dad.

And how do you believe that you earned, you know and I know. We know we don't have to earn our love or approval or acceptance or attention, but, you know, as children, we kind of do operate like, what do we got to do? Right. When it came to your dad, what got his attention? What got his approval? What made you feel loved by your dad?

Good question. My dad didn't really show a lot of emotion. That was.

Well, to answer your question first, I would say probably any sort of achievements or anything like that. Right. Was In a lot of sports, a lot of extracurricular activities. As busy as my dad was, he's a carpenter, still is a carpenter. He would show up, you know, in his work van to our sporting events and all the sawdust was still on him and stuff. But it was just great that he would there and he'd be present to watch. But he wasn't an overly emotional guy. In fact, I can tell you only one time that I saw him express his emotion and cry in front of us.

So it was one of those things.

Where it felt like it was difficult to see his emotion or any sort of response to anything that we kind of did.

When it came to your mom, was she the more emotional, nurturing kind?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

But did you feel closer to your mom or your dad growing up?

I would say closer to my mom growing up as I become adult age? Much closer to my father.

Sure. Have you kind of seen him shift and showing more emotion today or is he still old school?

He's still a little old school, but he shows more emotion now he's got a grandson, you know, that does it every time.

Those damn grandkids.

I tell you, it's just beautiful to see him step into the grandparole. It's really cool. So, yeah, he's become, I guess you could say like softer. Maybe that's the word for it or not. But he's become more emotional.

So when it came to your mom as a child, because your disposition is very nurturing in general and you're one of the strongest masculine men I know. Like very rugged. Kind of a guy's guy too. Like, I mean, what you do today is very guys guy. Yeah. You remind me of my son. I think that's why I love you so much.

But you can feel your sensitivity as well. When you were a kid and you were feeling feelings and you're looking at your dad, who looks more like you than mom does, and you're not seeing emotion, but you feel emotion. Was Mom a safe place to express anything and everything?

Yeah, I'd say for sure. Yeah, she was. Yeah.

Thank goodness.

Yeah. So there was a. There was an out. There was something. Right. I didn't just stuff the emotions down. I had a place to go and things to talk and share about and she was wonderful with that.

When it came to mom, what got her approval and the atta boys from her, would you say?

For sure. Driven by achievement as well. Not as much as my dad. Sorry. She was more so than my dad. She's really tough. So I Would go out, you know, first team, all conference soccer, and it wouldn't feel like it was enough. Like she would point out something that, you know, you could have stopped this here. You could have done this in the backfield or whatever it was, or could have. Could have gone a hair faster on the hurdles, whatever it might be. So she was a tough one for sure.

When you were younger and you have an older sibling and a younger sibling.

Yeah.

Who was the more rebellious out of.

Those two, between myself or them?

Oh, were you the rebellious by far?

Yeah.

No shit?

Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah.

What do you think that was about?

I don't know. I feel like I was more as reserved and quiet as I am. My two brothers are even more so. So I think that just my curiosity, my just being social, I just found myself in more stuff than they did. But it wasn't. I don't feel like it was acting out. I never felt like I was over controlled by it or anything like that. I just feel like I like to try different things and kind of do that stuff. So I don't know. I'm not really sure.

Did your trying different things always involve other people?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And are you all. Have you always been the guy that says, I can help you with that?

I will always jump in. Yeah.

Always.

Yeah.

Do you believe at your core in some way or another? I know having two parents that are really focused on achievement has a lot to do with kind of your dynamic at the root of who you are today and maybe most of your life. Would you say that how you feel worthy is being of service to others?

For sure, yeah.

How did that come into play with your parents, would you say, in the household?

Oh, yeah, that's a good question. And I'm struggling to find the words for it. You know, we all had lists of things that we had to do, right? Quote, unquote, chores and things like that. So I'm always the one to do that, to jump in to help out. My dad did a lot of remodeling to our house when we were younger. I would help out as often as I could. Would always go with my mom. She had to go into town, go see grand like of my two siblings, my grandma was older. She passed away two years ago. I'd be the one to kind of go in and see grandma when my other brothers wouldn't as much. Not that they didn't want to. They just found reasons not to. And I found reasons to. I think that was the big difference. And I don't I don't know what it was, but I would just be the one to kind of be more visible among the family. I'm not really sure how to explain it other than that it makes a.

Lot of sense in a second.

Okay.

Would you say also that have you always been able to feel what other people might be feeling or needing even before you understood what the heck was happening?

Yes, I think intuitively I did. I couldn't maybe articulate it, but I just would. I would just feel it. I can remember stories from when I was in grade school when I would have fellow students that. Oh, I mean, you could. I think this was back in first or second grade. Tracy. There was a. One of the boys in my class who, like, he had a physical accent I could remember. And all the other boys in our class were making fun of him. And I came and I basically pushed them all aside and I said, you know, let's stop make. I did that multiple times. I would stick up for the kid who'd get picked on, and I never really knew. I just always felt for that person that was getting picked on. I couldn't really tell you any other way than that. I just felt it.

Mm. I love it. I love it. You're like a 41 year old version of my son. And I'm obsessed. I'm completely obsessed. Would you say that you make most of your decisions, how you communicate? Do you run it through your heart first, your brain first, or your gut most of your life?

This is a tough one because my brain's very logically in terms of how I think. Right. I'm a budget guy, I'm a numbers guy. I'm a finance major. I love to think in numbers, which is very logical. I would probably say, though, it's a little bit more in my heart than anywhere else, and then probably my gut. And then depending on what it is, I have to run the numbers on it. But I'd say that's more. The last five, six years has been very logically thinking numbers head, but most of the time it's probably heart and gut.

Yeah, I would say so too. So one of the things that I have had you do, I had you take an online assessment and you guys have heard me talk about this before, that 65 to 70% of the time they're inaccurate. And you know, I've spent a lot of time with Kyle over the last few months and, you know, not longevity, but like very intentional time. And all this stuff you're telling me is so accurate for what I was thinking. And then your assessment honestly was spot on. You know, I'm working with new assessments that I'm obsessed with and yours was spot on because what I find that you probably most likely 100% ish are is what is called the 2 on the NE, which is the compassionate helper. And that fits you to at quite honestly. So as the compassionate helper, you do make decisions, communicate based on your heart and your feelings. Now we do use, like you expressed very clearly and articulately is that we have different centers of expression. And although you do run everything through your heart, you pretty much express through your brain center a lot, which is especially the more development we do and the older we get, the more wisdom we put under our belt. We can facilitate and toggle between the three of them pretty fluidly. Like you do. A lot of that is because of the work you've done. Personally, I happen to do the same thing. I'm a big action first, like going hot and then feel it later and it's crazy. But as in enneagram2, this makes so much sense. You are so much like my son. We also have something called subtypes, which is our instinctual reactions to life. And we either operate from self preservation, which means, you know, the primary concern is survival, physical safety, material security, well being, comfort, or we operate from, from a one to one instinct, which means the intensity of experience, focusing attention on the quality and status of relationships with specific people. That's where you fall, by the way. Yeah, that's also where I fall. And these can change, but our main core type doesn't. Right, so this is where you live is that one to one. And then there's the social subtype, which the primary concern for the social instinct is about belonging to recognition, relationships and social groups. That's my blind spot, that's the one I use the least. I don't know, but I think that you primarily live in that one to one space. And you know, you as a parent, you as a husband, you as the entrepreneur in the space that you're in, very much live in that beautiful space. So even though you're very logical and very competitive, but not really a lot of that has to do with your one to one subtype, which nobody really talks about. And all those assessments don't take into account, that's why they're inaccurate. So as a one to one enneagram2, you are more committed to the intimate relationships. You don't need all the accolades. But as an enneagram 2, you have the ability to tap into two wings. And our wings are the numbers on either side of us. And I like to describe the wings as this. Like we have our core type. It's like the. The main character in a movie, right? They're usually the star of the show, right. They're the one that gets all the highlighting and the big billboards. The main characters on that. And your enneagram 2ish is your main character. But in the movies, the main character is kind of boring without the supporting cast. And your supporting cast are wings. And your supporting cast is the 1 and the 3. The enneagram 1 is the reformer or the improver. I like to call it the sheriff, the integrity and high standard police, which they're great. And on the other side of you, just like my son is the three the achiever. And that is significance driven as well. And with the parents that you have and their focus on that, I could see that two in you leaning into the supporting role of the three a lot. Okay, so with our main type, not all. It's like, it's like doing a DIY project. Having the right tool for the job makes all the difference in the world, right? And your two ness, your helper qualities, although it is your superpower, it isn't always the right tool for the job. It's kind of like you need to cut down a tree, but you only know how to use a screwdriver. It's not going to work, right? So you need your tool over here called the chainsaw.

So sometimes the one or the three is the right tool for the job. Now you'll never be motivated like a one or three. The one believes they have to be good or bad, right or wrong, black and white thinking, no gray area. But when you need to lay down the law, you can tap into that. Or when there's a situation that calls for you to use your voice. Even though like that two in you is like, I don't want to hurt people's feelings.

Yeah.

The one supporting cast is like, yo, Kyle, that's bullshit. That's bullshit. And that's not okay. And the two in you is like, oh, it's gonna hurt when I have to say this, right?

Yeah.

The other side of you is the three. That achiever who is like, well, the end goal is this. The end goal is it doesn't have to be like a reward or an accolade. It could be like the vision for your company and the mission that you're driving, which is very heart centered as well. And so when the two in you doesn't want to hurt feelings. Or maybe you want to be an over giver and not charge as much as you need to or scholarship one too many people. And then you have resentment later that somebody didn't appreciate it, which I'm sure has happened a lot in life. That one is like, no, this is wrong. The two is like, ugh. But the three is like, hey, we got a goal here. This is the end goal. And so that one and the three can kind of push that two in you to get a little braver with your words and the boundaries. Okay, So a lot of times the eight and me, the intensity is not always the right tool for the job. In fact, it scares a lot of people. So I need the help of my wings, my seven and nine all the time to kind of like push me into this growth portion. So the other thing that happens is when we're pushing ourselves into growth, that looks a little different than your natural two. Like, the healthy two is a two that can help and give with boundaries. Right. And you're totally there, definitely protecting your energy. You've gotten really, really good at that in your 41 years. Now there's a next level growth. If we just focus on the best version of ourself, that's great. But you got a lot of life to live. So there's a version of growth that looks very, very different for you. And it stretches us. Every enneagram type has a growth number that stretches us. And yours happens to be what is called the four, otherwise known as the individualist. So, I mean, just the names itself could not be polar opposite. You go from the helper to the individualist. Right. So obviously doing something for you by yourself, probably not so much now, but a lot of your life. Like when I asked you the question of you being rebellious, did it always involve other people? Of course it did. Of course it did. Very rarely will you do something for yourself because you feel selfish, guilty. I could be using my time to help somebody else.

That sound about right for you?

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

So the pandemic for you may have done the same thing it did for my son, although it kind of took his crack pipe away. I like to call it your need to help people. Like, the pandemic kind of took that away from you. You couldn't be there for people the way that you would like to. And so what you were left with was a lot of time for you.

Did that spin you out or did you lean into things that you like to do more?

I think I. I Leaned into more things that I like to do. I. I don't think I went the other way. And I think it was. I think there was a point where it could have. I think I've done enough work, self development and growth that I knew, like, this isn't the path that I want to go down. Right. I want to do something good with this. This is. We're going to be in this for a while. Might as well do something productive and good. And if that means something for myself, great. But we also threw a lot of change into the mix. Right. We moved in October during the pandemic, so I think helped kind of mask some of the things too.

Yeah, it's interesting. So my son, who is also a two, he said the pandemic was a gift for him in the way that he didn't feel the guilt of doing things for himself anymore. It kind of took that option out of the scenario for him. So him doing things. Whenever I see a 2 doing things for themself by themself, like he goes golfing by himself. He picked up the guitar and started playing. He started writing and journaling off by himself or reading by himself. Anything that doesn't involve other people is really important for you. And he would even leave the house sometimes and apologize for going and playing golf by himself. And because I know, I'm like, please go, because that is gonna make you. And this is the other thing. This makes you able to help with the people coming from a filled up place instead of a depleted place. But I know for the two, it's very uncomfortable sometimes to say, hey, I need help, or I have needs too. Even though you read all of our minds, that's your superpower. You can read, feel and know what we need a lot of times before we even do. And sometimes the two where the resentment comes in and I'll get to that in a second, comes from you wonder why people don't read your mind and can't see that you need help or that you're hurting. Maybe. Has that happened in your life?

Yeah, it's almost like you want people. I just want people to know what I'm thinking before I have to say it or anything like that. So, yeah, I'd say that's for sure.

Yeah. That's one of the things I've had to in mentoring toos, including the one that I'm raising, is that although you can read minds, you can feel and know what we need. The other eight types of us absolutely don't have that superpower. And so it is imperative that you use your words and it doesn't make you selfish or needy or weak that you have needs that you actually have to use your voice for. Now, me as an 8, I don't like to ask for what I need, but for a very different reason. Like my value isn't in helping people. Quite honestly, my value and worth comes from being the strong one. Right? So that's how a 2 and an 8 are motivated. Very different, but we have a very deep connection and I'll tell you why. Okay, so as an enneagram2, you also have a stress number. Like when you're over giving doesn't work anymore because that's usually your drug of choice. Let's call it, you know, if you're feeling insecure or not very worthy, what you do is like, who can I help today? Who can I help today? Right? And that's where codependency can really kind of sneak up on us, is when we just kind of over give or who can we be the hero to today? That's like the two wears a cape all the time. When that doesn't work anymore and it's not cutting it, you take on the expression of a totally different type and it looks very out of character for you. What you look like, my friend, is an unhealthy version of me where that sweet, natured, compassionate, empathetic, service driven, heart centered guy all of a sudden when pushed to the brink, can look like a domineering, aggressive asshole like yours truly. And it's when you've been giving, giving, giving, taking one for the team, taking one for the team and nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to thank you or appreciate it, the resentment kind of boils over and you kind of explode like a volcano.

Yeah, well, I giggled because I'm like, I'm sure if my wife could hear this conversation and she'd be like, yeah, that makes sense. I see that. Yeah.

Yeah. And here's the thing about that, like, twos very rarely will show it to anybody but those closest to them. So this morning I was telling you before we hit record, my garage door took a shit. And the way I found out about this was my beautiful, Compassionate helper son, 2 was trapped in the garage and he had a busy day. And typically when he has been over giving like he has been, I usually get the resentment explosion. And I told him today because I knew I was gearing up for it because I knew he's been pushing and he was pissed that of course Mr. Help everybody is the one trapped Right. And I told him a couple hours ago, I'm like, I'm really proud of you. I was fully expecting you to unload on me. But he's been. Because you know what happens when you unload because you're so sweet and kind, genuinely is when you do have that explosion, the guilt and shame, because it's so out of character for you, can kind of send you in this spiral of then over giving to overcompensate for the.

That's interesting. And you know what's really funny, Tracy? This is ironic. As I sit here, I can hear my son and my wife just walk in the house from outside. And my son is like, he's crying. He feels like he's fussing, kind of crabby. And what goes on in my head is like, damn it. Like, Cal is never like that when Lois is on the phone. Why is he. Why is she. You know, it's like. So that's exactly what goes on through my head as we're having this conversation. So it, it is playing out to a T because I just envision myself going up to like, hey, can't you just keep him quiet while I've got one call today when I keep him quiet for eight hours during the day? So it's funny that you mentioned that because it literally just happened in my head. Like, you're reading me.

And that's my. That's why people are like, jesus, like, can you read my mind? Yes, sir, I can. Absolutely. And so, like, when. We can understand that. So when I said this to my son, Joey, I said, I appreciate. I said, I know you had to restrain from feeling exactly like, like, what the hell? I'm always the one taking one for the team and I need to get out of the garage. And he appreciated that I acknowledged it. I'm like, I know that you were frustrated. And it's like, you're just so give, give, give. And the one time you need to be somewhere because he had a flight to catch, he's like, seriously? And I was like, I'm really proud of you. Because you could have felt like poor me for a second and you didn't. And he's like, well, it wasn't your fault. I'm like, well, it never is. But.

That'S awesome.

I mean, you got a four year old in the other room. There's no way. When a four year old wants to unload, they're going to unload. It doesn't matter who's in charge, right?

Nope, he doesn't care.

So one of the other things that comes into play with the Enneagram and how I kind of navigate this is there's things called, like, the conflict style of each Enneagram type and the interaction style of each Enneagram type. And for the Enneagram 2, how you interact, there's either being assertive, which is where I fall, right? The compliant, like, how can I fix things and make things better? That's where you fall. And then there's the withdrawn. So when you are pushed to the brink, you kind of go into damage control, where I will just, like, come in hot.

Wrecking ball.

Like a wrecking ball. Like, how can I fix this shit? So that's also like understanding that when situations come up or if you're in a group setting, you're always going to kind of, like, read the room and knowing that about yourself and recognizing when you do that in a maybe really healthy way and maybe a not so healthy way for you.

But the one that I find interesting, too, is the conflict style and how we deal with that as well. You happen to be in the positive outlook where you will look for, especially when people are involved. Now, when it comes to you, you might go down like, something's wrong with me, but when it comes to other people, you definitely look on the positive on how you can make this better for all of us. The Enneagram 2 definitely is the connector. And I think after last year, the world needs more of you bringing us together. And I think that where before connection was overlooked or diluted, especially with the online space, the Enneagram Twos, especially like you in the world bringing us together not just for business, but for our soul's calling. And that is your gift. And ironically, that is what you have ended up doing in your business. Before we talk about what you do today, what has your career been most of your life, would you say?

Corporate America for 13 years, travel inside there. So I worked for a travel wholesaler. I worked for Carlson Residor Hotel Group, who owns Radisson Hotels and Country and Suites, Target Headquarters, and then video game distribution. I'm all over the place with this. And then I reached the point in my mid-30s where I'm like, God, do I want to. I want to keep doing this? I don't love it. I'm not fulfilled by it. I don't feel like I'm doing. Making a difference. There's no impact. And so I left corporate America and I became a high school business teacher, which was. I love the process of uncovering, learning, and I really enjoy Working with kids. But then when we had our son Cal, I was promoted to stay at home dad for a couple years. And then I started to develop the business that I have now. So that's kind of the career path. Corporate America for a long time. Then teaching, then stay at home dadding, which I still do a lot of. And now entrepreneur.

I love that. That's the career you end like the twos and teaching. And especially with kids. I'm not even surpr. And now this space that we're in, especially with men. And I have a lot of male listeners right now who. And I know raising a compassionate helper that is a male was the greatest gift of my life because I grew up with an Archie Bunker type dad. So the sensitive, heartfelt male is not what was modeled for me. And I know that more sensitive men that are strong like yourself, like, you're the epitome of strength and sensitivity all wrapped up into one. What advice would you give to the men out there? Because whether they're an enneagram two or not, leaning into this sensitive part of you is really what makes all of us feel safe, protected. And you might have thought it was weak at one point in your life, especially with a dad that didn't show emotion. You didn't have that modeled for you.

Yeah.

Boy, Good question. I think as men, we think that's any sort of vulnerability is weakness. And I've come to find that vulnerability, ability is strength. And I've had to overcome a lot, right? I mean, a couple years back, I had a dui. And that was. Yeah, that was really hard for me to talk about, I bet. Especially my parents. But when I found that I started this was the crazy thing is, like, I started to share this with other people. I would have people come to me, message me in private or whatever and say, hey, I've got one too. Thanks for sharing that. I feel like. Like I feel much better. I'm like, whoa. You know, I had no idea that that would be an outcome when I would share this. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. Like, how else can I just show vulnerability to give others the permission to do the same thing? And I found that there's real strength in that. And so that's. That's probably what. What I would say is, is vulnerability is strength.

The other thing, I'm so glad that you brought that up, because the other area that is really a sensitive subject for men as well is finances or if they have struggled financially. And one of the things that I am obsessed with you over is you're passionate about helping others like budget and the whole Dave Ramsey. You were on the Dave Ramsey Show?

Yeah, yeah, two years ago.

And how, like, how did you end up doing that? So you had to be in a lot of debt because he's all about debt, which is another insecurity usually for a lot of men. How did that whole thing come about?

I check all the boxes, Traci, because I was a stay at home dad. And so think of the ego wrapped up. When people are in social situations and they ask you, what do you do for a living? And I like, people are gonna ask me, I gotta say what I do. So I've had that ego crushed. I've had the DUI ego crushed. I've had finances as well. So I was on this journey like 20, 15, 16, end of the year, between Christmas and New Year's. I always prepare like my goals for the next year. My wife and I do them together. A glass of champagne over it and we talk about it. And I started looking into finances then and I'm like, you know, something doesn't seem right. We make pretty good money for two people, but we certainly doesn't feel like we have good money. So I did this whole process, logged on the Social Security website, found out together we made well over $2 million. And I'm like, well, that's funny because where is all the. The $2 million? We had nothing. And we had huge negative net worth, a lot of debt. And I'm like, something's got to change. If I got myself into this, I get myself out of this. And so we just did a bunch of research on financial literacy, found Dave Ramsey's program, put it into place, and we crushed almost $400,000 in debt in 38 months and then got on the Dave Ramsey show as a result. And I love it. I'm very logical thinker again. So I really enjoy helping people because there's a lot of shame in finances. There's a lot of shame in all of that and there's a lot of guilt and it doesn't have to be that way. So again, if I can put myself up as the example, like, hey, if I can do it, I can come out and say, hey, I got all this debt. I sucked at handling money, but I changed it and now it's a different outcome. I can help others too.

There is nothing better than a man, especially a man. Enneagram too, I will say that can hold the kind of space that you hold for other men because it's one thing to know that we have to change some things, but if there's nobody that's gone before us to light the path for us, it can be really, really scary. And I'm a first generation personal developer. I had nobody in my lineage ever lighting the path, so I had to go first. And I know you did too. And you now are holding that you're in the perfect role for, like, the calling on your soul, for sure. And especially I love that you're showing the way with strength and the most vulnerable things when it comes to men. So let the people know what it is that you do, because I know there's a lot of ladies too, are like, I want my husband to hang out with this guy. I mean, I've told you, I got a few people in my mind that should be around you too, including my own son, quite honestly. But what is it that you do with men today that holds the space where you can be a man's man and do these crazy adventurous shit, but also talk about the hard things that nobody really wanted to talk about?

Yeah. Well, if you lead with that, it's a hard marketing pitch, right? We're going to get together.

I don't have feelings.

Yeah. No. But what I found, like, it goes back years back in corporate America. I went to all the leadership conferences, I went to all the seminars and getting into personal growth. Same thing like you go to these seminars, these conferences, and it's hundreds of like, this makes sense because you know my personality and everyone does now who's listening. But I would go to these things with hundreds of people and I'm like, I can't connect with anyone. It's too easy for me to skip workshops because there's so many people there. No one even knows if I'm not there. And I would have all these great conversations with people after the show was done, after the conference was done, walking the beach and just getting to know someone heart to heart, like, what's going on in your life? And I was like, well, how do I just recreate this and I make it smaller? Like, how do I get 12 to 16 people? How do we just do some really cool stuff? And then after that, if people want to talk about things that are challenging in their life, cool. Because it's much easier if I get people together and we jump into a helicopter and we hover over waterfalls, we come back down and then I say, all right, you got, I mean, super cool. Some of you were super scared by that. Like, you know, where else might fear Be in your life. Or what if I get two groups of six guys to pit a nascar, and we talk then about, like, what was it like to communicate with those guys when you did that? I could sit in front of them and talk about communication. I could talk to them about being a leader, or I could just throw them into a container where they need to learn real, real fast, and then we just talk about it. And I found that I learned better by experiencing than by someone just kind of teaching me. I'm a teacher, so I knew in the classroom, kids don't learn when I just sit there and I talk to them from a textbook. But if I have them create a business, start a coffee shop, start a newspaper, whatever it might be, sell something on Facebook, marketplace, they learn so much more. And so how do I just do this together? But it's the ultimate Trojan horse, because if I can bring guys into an environment where we're pitting NASCARs, we're golfing Pinehurst, we're fly fishing, they're like, this is so cool. I give them what they want, but when they're there, they really get fed what they need, which is connection. It is a sense of belonging to each other and a space in a container to talk about stuff. That's the real secret sauce.

Well, I think the reason also why that works and combining with what I know to be true is the activities that you guys do kind of brings out that little boy in all of you, and in a good way, in the most beautiful, innocent, vulnerable, playful way before life kind of came along and kicked us in the teeth a little bit over and over. And I think when we're in that innocent, vulnerable space, we are cracked open a little bit for the real transformation to come and the brotherhood and all of that. And I know there's a lot of men out there that are craving that. I know you also have a podcast. Where can they find that?

Yeah, it's called Reaching Beyond. And it's religious to play on words, because a lot of times we think this life that we want is beyond our reach. But I think when you've got a different support system around you, you challenge your limiting beliefs, you can reach beyond all those things. So Reaching beyond is the podcast. And I have conversations just like this, and I just really enjoy people that are living a life that's big and on fire, and they're passionate about it, and they're making a difference, and that's what that podcast is about.

You make such a difference, I swear to God, in every single person that you come in contact before we even met in person. I could feel that. And I was like, I need to spend time with this person because your heart is just ginormous and in all the right places for all of us to kind of tap into the part of ours. I'm a little more hardened than most and being around you just kind of makes me open up even more. So I appreciate that. I know that you have an experience for some men coming up in the fall and you only have a couple. Couple spots open. What does that look like for any of the guys out there or ladies that love their guys that they may want to be.

Yeah. And I actually hear from a lot of women that want to send. Send their husbands or fiances or boyfriends, whatever. So I love that it's in October, it's In Scottsdale, it's October 10 to 13. So we got three nights of curated fun. So we're going to golf, we're going to go out to. If you're familiar with the area, we're going to go out to Lake Pleasant. You're going to learn From a top 10 wake surfer in the world. He's going to show us how to wake surf. And then I always keep a component of the experience a surprise because I found that with high performers, high achievers, they really want to be good at stuff and. And I throw them into a little bit of an environment where they're a beginner. And I think there's a lot of amazing insights that come out of that. And you mentioned I try and bring out that childlike personality and curiosity. So I don't tell everything about it, but that's kind of the essence of it.

And where can they find you and information on all the things Kyle.

Yeah, Instagram is my spot. I love to jam on Instagram. Kyle underscore depias and. And then my website's just Kyle defies.com and I'd love to have a conversation and see how I can cheer people on. I love to cheer people on. Which probably doesn't surprise you at all, but that's one of my favorite sports, so I love Instagram, so that's probably the best.

So what's the biggest aha you had in finding out that you're an enneagram too? What's like, yeah, the no shit and the big aha about you, maybe.

I think the one that just seems really obvious to me, it is a sense of belonging. I mean, you said sense of belonging and what was you mentioned in 2020? What was kind of hard. That was what was really hard for me. I didn't feel a sense of belonging. And last year is when I really kicked in these experiences, because I knew if I felt this, I knew others will as well. And I had a chance to. And I started to develop a digital course, which is E commerce, like Emark. And I'm like, I can do it. I got a great. I can help people, but. But, man, does that just not feel where my heart is. My heart is just. I want to bring people together. I want to be a catalyst for transformation through a sense of belonging. And so that was like, yeah, I know that. Mean, that makes total sense to me. The other question was, maybe what was something new that I didn't know? Oh, I don't know. Honestly, when you were talking about that, it just felt like you were reading what was on my heart. Like, none of it was. None of it was surprising to me. Maybe more. I wanted to deny it, but I think a real aha for me is in that exact instance where I just heard Cal upstairs kind of loud. And I'm like, it's good sense of awareness not to bring that out on anyone else. And I think that's really important. And that's a big aha, because to me, it's like, well, why can't. Why don't you just know? Like, why don't you just know that? Because I know that. So why don't you know that? So it's really helpful to get that awareness to like, hey, cool it. Like, you know, everyone has different types and everyone's got different strengths. And that's really good because it feels like sometimes I'm like, am I bipolar? Like, I go from this to this super fast. I'm like, what the heck? And I'm not that type of a person. I know that. But for some reason, the ugliness just comes out, and I can't help it sometimes.

Well, one of the things I've told my son is when that usually comes up is when you have been giving so much with an expectation of reciprocation. And so one of the things I tell him all the time is, would you say yes to this if they never thanked you, they never said, you're awesome, or they never reciprocated. And if at all in your heart, you're like, then say, can I get back to you on that? Or say, no. And he was like, oh, like, you're taking away my drugs. I'm like, I know, but then I'm saving you for the crash. Later because the resentment pops up. So if you don't want to do it for fun or for free, then the answer should probably be no so that you can give from the most genuine, beautiful space. And my friend, I love that you're so passionate about transformation because you transformed my life just by being in it. For sure.

Oh, thank you Teresa.

And I'm so grateful that you were here on the show showing people that like, in order to be a good leader in the world, you have to first lead yourself. Transforming yourself into the ultimate leader is why you're able to light the path for so many. So my friend, thank you for being here today. I love you.

Thank you. Thank you Tracy. You too.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the Leadership Formula Podcast. Please help us spread the the word about this show by sharing it with a friend and leaving a written Apple Podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me directly on Instagram at traceeomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@tracyomalley.com I'm excited to lead you into the next level of your life.

Sam.