EP188: Live Enneagram Typing Session: Leading and Loving from All the Authentic Places with Dorothy Illson (Enneagram 2)

Welcome to the Leadership Formula podcast, where you will learn the secret sauce behind achieving massive success. I'm your host, Tracy o', Malley, multimillion dollar entrepreneur, your Enneagram expert, master performance coach, and mom to millennials. Do you want deep, meaningful relationships? To wake up every day with purpose and make money doing something you love? Well, you've landed in the right place. Every week, I will teach you how to get exactly what you want in life by strengthening your emotional intelligence. Using a combination of the Enneagram framework, live life coaching sessions, and real talk from yours truly, it's time to transform yourself into the ultimate leader of your life. Let's do this thing.

Okay, all you Enneagram fans, these episodes have become your favorite, and that is what you're telling me. You love hearing the typing process, and today's episode is just that. One of my dear friends from a mastermind I'm part of. I could see her brain working. So I kind of have an idea of where we're going to go with this, but I'm curious if I'm right, because I tell y', all, it's not your job to start, like, type in everybody. I didn't tell her what I think she is. I don't think. But I have an idea, and we'll see if I'm spot on. And, you know, these online assessments, although they're a great starting point, they are inaccurate 65 to 70% of the time. And so that's why having somebody that is really skilled in kind of dissecting the assessment process can be super helpful. It's kind of like having the fast pass at Disneyland. You just skip to the front of the line and it's great. And you get all the juicy fun out of the Enneagram and the correct information. This is the greatest personal development tool I have ever used in 22 years of my own journey in personal development. And trust me, I've tried it all. And if there was easier ways, I would have taken them. But this tool took a lot of the emotional charge out of unpacking a lot of my crap, and it allowed me to look in the mirror in a different way with more compassion, instead of, you know, the whipping stick or the shame stick or whatever else we pull out. Right. And so today, I wanted to bring you Dorothy Ilson. She. You used to live in Chicago, right? I do. She's a Chicago girl. But you're not. Are you originally from there?

Ohio, actually. I've been in Chicago for about eight, nine years now.

I knew she was Midwest you can just tell Midwest humans, they are my people. And so I. I love. She's so wise beyond her years. You're like 29, right?

I will be 30 next week. Yeah.

It's crazy. So next week, that makes you a Scorpio.

You got it.

All right. We got a Scorpio in the house. And so that means you were born in 91.

Yes.

Oh, my God. I was in college. Gosh, that's so crazy. But like I said, like, she is. You forget how young she is when you're talking to her, because she's a freaking brilliant wizard. And she is incredible. She has a Facebook ads, company, agency, so she handles all the cool crap you see on Facebook and Instagram and all the kind of ad spend. If you are somebody who needs this, this is your woman. You know, I don't talk about people and things that I don't love or trust. This is the only ads person I would ever direct you to. So that being said, when you hear. I'm curious how this is going to go, because I would have pegged you for something different than your assessment site said. So this will be interesting. Dorothy, why did you want to do this?

So, Tracy, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I was telling you before we hit record, I am so excited for this. I am someone who I would consider myself to be a personal development coaching junkie. You know, I kind of stumbled into personal development my senior year of college. And over the last 10 years, I've done a lot of therapy, I've done a lot of coaching. I've done hypnosis. You know, I've really spent a lot of time and energy trying to dig into my psyche and really understand myself better and understand what makes me tick. And I have had interesting experiences recently of uncovering new things where I'm just like, gosh, I thought I had all this figured out. I thought I knew my trauma, I thought I knew my patterns. And I realized there's so much more to uncover. And Enneagrams is something where I first heard about it, I think a couple of years ago, I had a friend who was into it and. And didn't pay it a ton of a ton of mind. But then it's like it keeps coming back into my world. And I keep having people, you know, bringing it up in conversation. I go to, you know, the mastermind that we're part of together. Everyone's talking about their number, and it just feels like the universe has been telling me, like, I have to explore this and So I just could not be more excited to find out where I fall.

Well, I love that I was about your age when I started in personal development because it wasn't a thing. Like, I'm a first generation personal development person because, like, our parents, my parents did not. Like, we didn't have Internet, we didn't have any of this crap. So, like, kind of going rogue with it 20 something years ago. I know why I was exploring it. And it's usually because, you know, we kind of see the world intellectually and cognitively. We understand, like, okay, like, certain things work in the world, certain things don't. And even though we know better, we aren't always doing better. Or some of this stuff keeps coming up and you're not sure why. And that's why I went on the journey of like, uncovering, unpacking all this stuff. And just when you think you figured it out, something else gets drudged up. Right.

For sure.

What was going on for you or what did you feel like you needed to understand about yourself? That wasn't making sense.

Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of my inner work, inner child work, like, it was all focused and I'll get personal with you, like, real quick. Like, it was all focused around my dad and my relationship with my father, who had, you know, a lot of anger issues. He had a pretty explosive temper, which was really scary as a kid. And it was very. It was always very obvious to me the way that that experience as a young child impacted me growing up. But it wasn't until very recently that I kind of stumbled upon, you know, the other half of things where, you know, I kind of started unpacking my relationship with my mother, who is the sweetest woman in the world. She's just amazing. We have an. I have an incredible relationship with both of my parents. I'm so grateful for them. And my mother is someone who really, you know, she just showers the people around her with praise and validation. She's so encouraging, you know, so loving. And it was. I had a big breakthrough recently in realizing that a lot of the way I behave now actually stems from those interactions with her. And the fact that I got so used to getting this constant and over the top level of praise and validation that when I don't get that from people, I fall apart. So that was kind of my recent breakthrough. But it definitely just went to show that, like you said, just when you think you have it all figured out, there's always so much more that you can unpack.

What I love about The Enneagram. And this is why it was so like, yes. The hell yes for me is, you know, a lot of the things, even therapy focuses on behaviors, right? But what I loved about the Enneagram is it really helped us, helped me get to the root of why I do what I do because of how I'm wired. Plus, you know, the way that we're dropped into environments, families, school systems, experiences. Right? So our core type never changes, but how it gets expressed absolutely can. And I grew up with a father very similar to yours. And, you know, even though I'm wired a certain way, this is what I love about it is like, we're. We're born with this wiring, a calling, what is planned for our life. And then how that gets expressed can change based on what we said. I'm curious, though. When you met me, did I stir something up in your nervous system at all?

It's so funny you ask that. I would say yes. I mean, I think you're someone who. I feel like we didn't necessarily have an immediate connection. It took more conversation, and I'm just absolutely obsessed with you. I think you're amazing. And when we first met, I don't even know how to say it. Like I said, I'm always seeking over the top validation from people. And so, like, when I don't feel like there's, like, an immediate, like, we love each other, like, my mind goes to, okay, this person doesn't like me, and I've done something wrong. Which certainly that's not to say that, like, you know, you do anything to make me feel that way. But you know what I'm saying?

The body never forgets. The body never forgets. It's. It's what I usually will tell people before we kind of go into looking at behaviors of other people or kind of what our heart is saying. I always tell people to check in with their body. And the reason I asked that, I felt called to ask that because I could sense that from you. My son is more wired like you. And in the past, when I was not healthy, I would have used that to kind of show you how powerful I was. I would withhold kind of whatever, especially if I felt like somebody needed it. And so I'm very sensitive and not over the top at first with those that are wired like you, because I would never want somebody to take my intensity as, like, judgment or overpowering things like that. It's interesting also, you know, when you grow up with fathers like you and I did, it's very obvious who the issue is.

Right.

With some of our coping mechanisms, but through my work, too, you know, I'm wired more like our fathers, you know, I'm more of that intense energy. But what I found was where a lot of my pain lied was actually with my mom. Are your parents still married?

Divorced about three years ago, actually.

Oh, wow. Yeah, so they. They hung in there a long time. Who ended. Who ended it?

My mom. Yeah, it was tough.

Did she finally have enough?

Yeah. You know, I think it was interesting, you know, when my dad was kind of asking her, you know, about why this is happening, whatever, and she starts bringing up all these things that happened 20 years ago, you know, so, you know, I think it was something that. I think it was the right thing, and I think it was. It was hard for me initially for a multitude of reasons, but, you know, I think now, having had some space from it, I can see, like, it was absolutely something that needed to happen and probably should have happened a very long time ago.

Do you ever, like, I think this doesn't happen till we're, you know, a little more wise and trust me, when I was your age, I already had two kids when I was your age, and I was like, I got this all figured out, and then, holy shit. Like, no, I had no freaking idea that I started to recognize that although my dad had explosive anger, alcohol stuff, like. And he was awesome, too. Like, he really. I mean, all my grittiness came from my dad, which is awesome. But I recognize how, like, dad couldn't be like dad was without my mom kind of co signing on that bullshit. And it sounds like your mom was very much. If she was the showering people with praise, she was the one who kind of kept the peace and, like, smooth things over and did whatever she could to keep dad quiet. Probably.

Yeah.

What was your role in the family?

I definitely consider myself to be a peacemaker in the family. I mean, I want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to get along. And I do definitely take it upon my. To try to make that happen. There's a really, I would say, toxic pattern in my family, kind of across the board, where we're all constantly trying to manage each other's relationships, which never works. And I think that is definitely something that I am very consciously trying not to do anymore.

So I know you have at least one sibling, because you guys just got married three weeks apart, which I just saw was so cool. Yeah. We've got a newlywed in the house. She got married a month ago, and your sister just got married over the weekend. Is it just you two or the more siblings?

So I have my sister who's a year older. We hated each other growing up, and now we are absolute best friends. And then we have two half brothers who are about 10 years older than us.

So one of your parents got remarried?

Yes, my mother.

Oh, wow. So they both did, but yeah, they did that soon, huh?

Oh, no, no, no. I'm sorry. My. My mom's. So my brothers were from my mom's first marriage and then she married my dad and had us, and now neither of them are married.

Got it, Got it. So why do you think you and your sister didn't get along? Is she wired more like me?

She is very intense. You know, there's a lot of my family, especially with my dad, there's a lot of depression. There's a lot of manic depression. It's kind of a running joke in my family. And jokes tend to come from truth that, you know, my sister got all of my mom's best qualities and my dad's worst qualities, and I got all of my dad's best qualities and my mom's worst qualities. And I think as we've gotten older, we realized that really does map but kind of our pattern as kids. And I will take full responsibility for this because it was definitely my fault. I would antagonize my sister until she would snap and attack me, and then I would just play the victim. And we fought terribly as kids. We had to walk home from school on opposite sides of the street.

Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. How did you get your dad's approval and attention and love? What was something that he would acknowledge as good?

Yes. I mean, my dad is a very emotional guy. He's a very sappy guy. So he's kind of got both ends of the spectrum. And I think my dad has always been very proud of me for my drive and my ambition and he's an entrepreneur. And I know he's super proud of me for what I've created with my business, but honestly, and I don't mean to give you a cop out answer, but I never really felt like I had to earn my dad's love or approval. Like, I've always known that he's proud of me, that he loves me. He's like very quick and frequent to tell us that.

So.

Yeah.

What would he compliment you for?

For all kinds of things. I mean, I almost struggle to answer it because I think when I was a kid there was so much focus on my. My sister because she. She had a lot of challenges, you know, challenges in school and, you know, she. She was in therapy from like a very young age. And I was kind of okay, you know, like, I did well in school. And I don't know, I guess I struggle to answer that, to be honest.

Okay, so if I'm asking when you are going through life, you are very much a high achiever, especially it's at such a young age to be doing what you're doing and, and all of that. What would you say if something trips you up personally and professionally, what would you say that is, if you could pinpoint what that is? What do you think it is for sure?

I think the biggest thing I'm struggling with right now and realizing that I've always struggled with is self acceptance. I am very quick to blame myself for just about anything, and I carry a lot of shame as well. I'm quick to take credit for my accomplishments, but I'm also very quick to assign myself blame for anything that I perceive as being wrong in my life, you know, and I think that there is definitely a big element of my mother, the way that we're similar is that she really likes things a certain way. And as a result of that, you know, she has trouble, you know, delegating. She's kind of a little bit of a control freak. And. And I'm definitely the same. I like to be in control of everything because that way I can take all the credit and I can take all the blame and like, it's all on me and I don't have to depend on someone. And, you know, because my mother very much likes things a certain way. You know, I think what I've realized is that I'm kind of constantly scanning and searching to figure out what people want from me and what people expect me to be, and then trying to be that for them so that I can earn that praise and that validation that I crave so deeply.

Yeah, I can see that for sure. When you are feeling most confident and like, yeah, what's. What's kind of showing up for you in your life or what makes you feel confident, I would say it's a.

Little tough to separate, like, what pieces of this is, like my natural personality versus how into personal development and, you know, that kind of stuff that I am. I'm someone who really believes in my limitless possibility and my ability to create, you know, whatever it is that I want. So I think when I'm most confident, it's when I am recognizing my wins. I'm celebrating My wins and, you know, I'm really focused on what's going well instead of, you know, what maybe isn't going well. I am, you know, feeling secure in my relationships. I'm doing things that bring me joy. I'm riding horses, I'm being out, you know, spending time in nature. You know, I'm serving my clients the way that I want to serve my clients. So I think for me, it's really about what I'm focused on because for my entire adult life, there's been so much good and so much joy and so much that's going well. And when I struggle is when I choose to put my attention on other things that maybe aren't going as well.

Would you say that you can read what people need?

Yes.

Not just business wise, but in general. I mean, growing up with the environment you did, you probably were always kind of like watching dad kind of knowing. Knowing what kind of mood he was in and how to interject in a way that wasn't like your sister and poking the bear. Probably your sister was probably more of a poke the bear kind of person, and you were more like, give the bear a hug kind of person.

Yeah, well, I would. I would poke my sister as the bear.

She'd do your dirty work, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think maybe that was an attention seeking thing I did, like, causing conflict between me and my sister. But yes, absolutely. I think I'm very good at reading people. And that's why, you know, I think, like, if you asked my friends or like, people who even just don't know me very well, like, I'm very thoughtful and I really try to go above and beyond to make people feel loved and supported and feel special because that's what my mom does for everyone around her. And it's part of what I love about her so much is she makes everyone she comes into contact with happier. And I think in the ways that I'm similar to her, I'm very good at reading people and trying to figure out what they need or want and how I can provide that for them.

If we're being really honest about mom, if she wasn't your mom and we were kind of observing her, can you recognize where sometimes this over the top, going above and beyond is a way to give to get the. Thank you so much. You're so amazing. The. Oh, gosh, he's so lucky to have you. Do you see some element of that in her, whether it's conscious or not?

So I'm laughing because, like, there's a Very like, known, kind of talked about thing in my family that really stems from my grandmother on my mother's side where everything is conditional. And I think my mom really deliberately tries not to do this because she knows this about her mother. But it's like, you know, if my grandmother would, you know, send a pair of, you know, hand knit mittens to every grandchild, she's literally making a list of which grandchildren did not send her a thank you note so that she can be pissed about it. You know, like, there's just, there's a lot of conditionality to good deeds within our family. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think for my mom, if I would imagine that for her, it, it is also an element of she's doing these things to get praise because her parents were not the type to give praise or give love. Like, you know, they didn't say I love you to their children. You know that, right?

Yeah, right. And I, you know, I can see that people that usually are givers and super thoughtful. I'm not saying that that's not their nature because it's beautiful. I'm ra. One of those. And I also know that when it isn't reciprocated, appreciated, or acknowledged, there's this kind of eruption that's brewing underneath the surface. Did you ever feel that with your mom that if all this beautiful, thoughtful things that she was doing wasn't appreciated, acknowledged, reciprocated, did she ever, like, lose her shit?

So first I'll say you're nailing it. I wouldn't say she would lose her shit.

Was she more passive aggressive about it?

Yeah, you know, I think she, she wants to. She's always doing things that are, you know, super sweet, super thoughtful. I mean, when I, you know, like when I was home last weekend and she had the most beautiful, like, flowers and a little chalkboard that said welcome home, Dorothy and like this whole thing and, you know, she, she wants you to rave over it, which I'm happy to do because it's really nice and thoughtful, but she definitely wants, you know, she wants that, as do I. Like, you know, and I think that's the way that, like, we're similar. And I definitely have a bit of a complex about worrying that people are mad at me. And so I will make up the most insane stories about if someone in my life or someone I'm around seems a little off or seems a little upset. I will make up endless stories in my head about why it's because of me and why they're mad.

At me or how to fix it or how to fix it and how to fix it. Probably this is going to help you so much, my sister. I'm so excited for you. What do you think is your go to coping mechanism? Whether it's healthy or not, when you're feeling stressed or like, oh my gosh, there's a reason they don't like me or I can't make this better, or what is your go to mechanism to either bury yourself in shame or to numb it out or to avoid it?

Well, really the first thing I do which is not really burying it or avoiding it, I call my mom or my sister to vent to them about the situation. They are the only two people in the world. I mean, my husband Jacob, bless his heart, he does his best to kind of talk me through this kind of stuff, but he's wired so differently that I think it's hard for him to understand why I'm so worked up about such seemingly little things. My mom and my sister, I go to them because I know that they're going to just effusively over the top comfort me and kind of talk me through why I shouldn't worry about it or why I didn't do anything wrong or whatever. And I think the three of us do that for each other in a big way.

Do they comfort you or do they enable you?

Oh gosh.

Both, I'm sure.

Yeah, I had a feeling what I.

Want when I am, because I ruminate over things, I will get upset about something and I will be so worried I will just ruminate nonstop. And what I need in, I mean, who knows if this is really what I need. But what I want is for someone to like logic me through why it's okay and, and why I don't need to be worried about this thing, you know?

And what is it usually that works you up?

It's anything where I perceive that I have wronged someone. Do you want an example? I'll give you an example. I doubt she'll ever listen to this podcast. So like you said, I just got married a few weeks ago. We had the most, just incredible, magical perfect day. I wouldn't have changed a single thing. I was so happy all day. And then at night, like shortly before we were going to bed, I walked upstairs in the house we were all staying and I saw my now brother in law and his girlfriend having what was obviously an intense conversation and they kind of said hi and then shut the door and I went on my way and I obviously, I had no idea what it was about. But the story that I told myself was that his girlfriend was upset that we didn't include her in the family photos, and that, you know, I should have, like, put my foot down, you know, because that was a decision Jacob made and that I should have put my foot down and insisted on her being in the photos. And that, you know, she's upset with all of us because of that, which ended up being, like, I eventually found out what was going on, and it literally had nothing to do with me. But that was the story that I told myself. And I spent an hour being stressed out over feeling like I didn't do what I needed to do to make her feel welcome and included, because it's so important to me to feel welcome and included. So that's just an example, you know.

One of the beautiful things that you did, which is not typical for your type. You are very good at, like you said. Oh. Taking over responsibility for everybody else's happiness. And the reason you do that is because you do want to be liked and appreciated and loved and all of that. But one of the things that I really want to acknowledge you for is, you know, planning a wedding during COVID and all of that brought a whole new slew of challenges. And when you are such a thoughtful giver and this is your day, and when cancellations were coming, instead of, like, just taking care of everybody else, you leaned into all of us and let us kind of help you through that so that you could enjoy the day. I know that that's not. That wasn't natural for you to do, and it felt very needy. Maybe when you first cut off that text, you probably are like, oh, my God, I'm such an ass.

I. Gosh, Tracy, I feel so seen right now. Yeah, I sent that text, and I spent the next 90 minutes, two hours beating myself up for being attention seeking.

Yeah, it's wild.

You know, the gift of, like I like to say, each enneagram type's gift can also become their kryptonite. Right? So your gift of being thoughtful and generous and heartfelt and empathetic, like, those are your gifts when you're coming from a place of love, compassion, empathy, service, and grace. Right? So when you are doing it for the right reasons, when you're, you know, doing it for fun or for free, that's what my best friend and I often say. I'm like, am I doing this for fun or for free? Or is there an ulterior motive that's subconscious about me doing this? And although you freely Give. There are times that subconsciously you are doing it to get the, I'm good enough. I'm amazing. Thank God, I'm liked. All of that. And because you are so instinctual with knowing what people need so that you can serve that need a. To be awesome, but also to get your own kind of dopamine. Hit.

Yeah.

Right. So when you. You never judge anybody else for needing anything because you do get something out of it. Yeah. But the minute that you have needs, you judge yourself. And that is very typical. And what I will say to you, I'm raising one of you that. Using your words, like when you sent that, I was never more proud of you. And I thought that took such insane courage because I know you're not typically, you are somebody that can feel a room. It's evident. And so for you to so vulnerably say, I need support right now, I want you to know, I want you to keep doing that. Thank you. Honestly, it changed everything. And honestly, it's how I looked at. I looked at you a little different after that.

I did.

I really, really did. Like, I was like, fuck, yeah. Like, good for her, because I know how hard that is for you. And when my son does it, like, I'm like, use your words, baby. I got your back. But you got to use your words. Your gift is that you can read what people need, but the problem is, is where it becomes your kryptonite is then you expect everybody else to have that same gift as you. And when it isn't, and they don't read your mind and they don't acknowledge how amazing you are and they don't reciprocate, then resentment kicks in. And before you explode on them, which you will. If you're pushed. If you're pushed enough, you'll explode, and then you'll have shame about that. But before you do, you'll bury yourself in shame.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I'm at, like, say, I'm at a Mastermind event, and I find out that, oh, like, you know, these few people went to dinner. You know, I take that to mean, oh, I didn't get invited because they didn't like me, or if like, like, even. I'll give you an example. Like, I was telling another friend in the Mastermind. Like, she went to go visit someone else who I'm friends with, and I was telling her, gosh, like, how insane is this? Like, I saw that, and I took that to mean, wow, I'm clearly not creating deep enough relationships in this group because I'M not doing that. You know, So I make everything I.

Know all about me when it's not.

At all about me.

And this is going to make so much sense to you and how you can not get, like, down the shame spiral. Like, it's so funny that you said that. When I'm not invited somewhere, I just automatically seem, oh, I'm too much for them. I'm too intimidating. I must be too intense. Right. Because that's where I go. It's like, I'm too strong.

Yeah.

I'm too much where you go to, like, oh, my gosh, they must not like me or I haven't worked hard enough on these relationships. Which is your superpower. If I was sitting around the fire, talking to your. Your close inner circle, what would they tell me is the best part about being friends with you?

Oh, definitely. That I'm so thoughtful and supportive. Yeah.

And what would they tell me is the hardest part about being your friend?

I would say.

This type never has.

Because you guys are so accommodating that and you. And you know how to make everyone like you. It's almost like a ch. Like you look at people like, I'm gonna make them like me. And you. You actually do.

I do.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Yes.

It's so funny that you can't come up with something because it's.

I mean, obviously, I. That's. It seems so arrogant that I can't, like, think of something right away. But I, like, I would say, if anything, like, I do require, like, I require a lot of reassurance. And, you know, I think that I probably. I rely on my inner circle in a deep way to. To give that to me. And so, you know, but also, I. It takes a lot. Like, I think my biggest complaint for my friends is probably that I. I don't lean on them enough. Like. Like, I. Because I don't want to burden people. I'm always so worried about burdening people. So even though I am the first person to, you know, any of their sides, to support them in their challenges, I keep my own challenges, you know, to myself and, you know, maybe to my sister and my mom and Jacob, because I don't want to burden people with, you know, my shit.

Would you ever feel burdened if somebody trusted you enough to come to you?

No.

I know.

Yeah.

Do you ever get. When you feel the resentment kicking in that, you know, even though you've built own story in your head that you don't burden them, you won't disclose this stuff. You take that Responsibility on. But even when you do that, does part of you ever say, God, who the hell is going to be there for me? Like, in this internal temper tantrum that you have, do you ever. Or do you just shove it down?

I'm very blessed that I like all of my closest friends in Chicago. There's five of us who have been friends since elementary school, and we all live in Chicago. We see each other all the time. And my sister is my closest friend. So I have a really incredible and really special inner circle. So I always know that I have support. And I think that when I can get myself to share my challenges and ask for that support, I'm flooded with it. Um, I have really incredible people in my life.

And then. Do you have, like, the vulnerability hangover some, like. Like, with the text to our mastermind group, like, you had a vulnerability hangover? Do you ever have a vulnerability hangover when you actually lean in?

Not with my inner circle. Because with my inner circle, like, we've created so much trust and goodwill over decades of friendship that, you know, I do it for them, they do it for me. And so I don't feel that. The place I feel that is when I am vulnerable with people who I don't feel like I have as deep of a relationship with, which also makes it, like, it's hard for me to ask for help of someone that I'm not super close with.

Do you have a harder time doing it with people maybe that, like, our mastermind? Because you don't like. Not yet, anyway. It's not like you've known them for, you know, 30 years, but do you feel like you have a harder time with that because maybe you can't reciprocate as much, and since that's kind of like your supply, so to speak, you know, your ability to, like, read people and because you leaned into a group that maybe you don't know as well, do you think that might have been why it was so much harder for you?

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Do you have somebody in your life that encourages you in ways that don't require other people or you being thoughtful for other people?

Yeah, I mean, I would say Jacob. I mean, he's not someone who needs a lot of external validation. And so, you know, I think he definitely encourages me in that direction in a really healthy way.

Good. This is going to make a lot of sense in a minute. Where did your love of horses come from? And why. Why do you feel such a connection with them?

Oh, my gosh. It's the. It's the biggest joy in my life. I started riding. I had a next door neighbor who she took me to one of her horseback riding lessons when I was five or six years old. And I started riding then and I just very immediately loved it. I've always loved animals. I had a dog. I started Dorothy's dog walking service when I was six around that time too. And like took that very seriously. Big client, Ross. My parents, literally, they're very like laissez faire parents. Like, they literally let me go door to door by myself, like knocking on doors to drum up dog walking business when I was in kindergarten. So I've always loved animals. I think what I love so much about horses. Horses is that it's a relationship. I love individual sports because then no one can blame me if it doesn't, like, if I'm on a team sport, then if I mess up, then I'm hurting all these other people, which is very hard for me. So I love that it's an individual sport. I'm responsible for my own successes and my own failures. But there's also a relationship there, like that relationship with the horse you're riding. Yeah. So I love animals.

Oh, I had a feeling. Do you have any idea what you might be on the Enneagram? Had you poked around a little bit?

I poked around very briefly. I also listened to a couple other of your typing sessions and I. I resonated with a lot of them. And I remembered you saying in one that nines often resonate with like a lot of different numbers. So I had a hunch maybe nines.

And twos very often look a lot alike. They behaviorally interact a lot. The nine is more withdrawn and the nine does it more to kind of create harmony in the environment. Where A2 is more about, like the relationship. You are definitely a two. You definitely are. You do have a lot of nine tendencies. And I'm going to explain why. When I first met you, I was like, she's got some 6 energy too. Like the worrying and the lots of questions. But as I was kind of getting to know you more and especially after, you know, with the whole wedding thing, and you really leaned in this last time. We all got together in a very vulnerable way. I was like, oh, okay, there's the feeler. So twos have a motivational need to be liked, loved and appreciated. Where nines they are. What can I do to make the environment harmonious? Right. You don't care about the environment as long as all the people are loving each other and they're loving you. That's the difference between a nine and a two. Okay. And when a nine feels like they can't win, like a nine will shut down caring about anything if they feel like they won't be able to make it. Okay. Where you will go into over giving.

Yeah.

Over worrying about what people think, a 9 will disconnect altogether.

Okay.

They won't let themselves, like, care.

Yeah.

Because then it controls them. Where a 2 goes the opposite direction.

Yeah.

Like you're more compliant.

Is that what my assessment pulled out for me or was that different?

The two?

Yeah.

It pulled out a two. It pulled out a seven and an eight. Okay. And I will explain how they're kind of connected because I can see that. Because I could see the visionary in you, especially with what you do for your business. You have to be very much a forward thinker, but you also have to have that relationship piece to be successful at what you do. I mean, there's a lot of moving parts, especially when people hand over huge money and they feel very vulnerable. You have to be really likable and credible and trustworthy for people to hand over the kind of money they do for something that they know nothing about. It's a very vulnerable thing for people to trust you. And so I'm not surprised by the two coming up. But there's something called our subtype, which is our instinctual response to life, which when I saw the instinctual kind of thing, this made perfect sense. Why I thought maybe six and why seven pops up and I'll explain. Explain that in a second. So twos value relationships. So kindness, generosity, self sacrifice, super important to you. You strive to make the world a more loving place primarily by offering support and attention to those you care about. At your best, you are unconditionally supportive. That means there's not this underlying I'm giving to get kind of thing. You're able to practice self care. You don't completely abandon yourself. Right. And this is where the horses come into play too. And you offer the gift of humility to yourself and the world around you when you're not down the shame spiral, when you're not taking over responsibility and building stories in your head. Right. Very easy for you guys to do because you can feel the emotions. You just happen to make it all about you and very rarely is it. Right. So when you're not at your best and you know you're over giving or you're overwhelmed or you feel like you're not appreciated, acknowledged, or you're like sinking and nobody's throwing you the life vest because they can't read your mind. You can seem flattering and manipulative. That giving to get thing where you can, like, it's like, I need my, my supply.

Right.

Think of like your correct supply. It's like I, I need somebody to tell me I'm amazing. So this is when you can give to get a little bit or you can be. My son does this all the time. When I can see when he kicks it into overdrive, it's like, okay, you're not feeling appreciated somewhere. What's going on? He's like, damn it. He's like, you're right. But you're motivated by this deep belief that you don't deserve to be loved for who you are, only what you do for others.

Yes. I'm resonating with everything you're saying. So, I mean, since the second we started this call, I'm resonating with everything you're saying. And you're right. Like, I'm big on wanting to give genuine compliments, so I don't blow smoke. But anytime I have a thought, like a genuine thought of something that I like or something I appreciate about someone, I'm very quick to want to say it so that I can give people that. I mean, even like you. And I jumped on this call. What's the first thing I said to you? I was like, wow, I love your zoom profile picture. That was a real thought that I had. I was like, damn, that's a great picture, Tracy.

And like.

But I had to say it to you, you know. Right.

And, and that's the, like, this is the hard part is your superpowers can also be your kryptonite. So really. And you know, I've got my own superpowers. My intensity is my superpower. But it can be like a wrecking ball in my life if the come from is from a place of fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, or, you know, I got a big ass ego. So it can really mess things up. So what I will tell you before you open your mouth or say, yes, I will do that for you. I want you to pause for a second and ask yourself, if this wasn't appreciated, thanked, acknowledged, or reciprocated, would I still be a hell yes on this? Okay. If they never said thank you, would you still do it? Yeah. You're going to realize that you have, yes, yourself into a corner more often than you than you're not. And now I'm not saying that to you so you can go Beat yourself up some more. But a lot of times you have a hard time being alone with yourself and your own needs, that you will overcompensate by taking care and being thoughtful and over helping everywhere else. But then the resentment kicks in when you can't use your words that like, doesn't anybody see I'm dying over here? Yeah. So you saying no more often will allow you to take care of yourself first and foremost and also learn kind of what relationships are really true in your life. Because when you start saying no to people, you're going to see the ones that say, well, why?

Because it's not going to work for me. You're going to see who the takers have been in your life, and you're going to see who the people are that genuinely want this even energy and even value exchange, which you deserve. Because your worth is not coming from what you do for other people. Your worth is amazing because you are you, not because of what you do and remembering that. And I'm going to show you how you can really lean into that. So as a two, you're always going to be motivated by being liked and appreciated. So you're going to always have to like, check yourself before you wreck yourself. It's like, am I saying yes because I need the supply? Or is this for fun or for free?

And when you catch yourself, because I need supply. Okay, what's really going on? Where have I been? Like, where am I feeling vulnerable? Or where are my needs not being met? Because. Because instead of feeling your needs, you'll kind of disassociate through helping other people. And that's when I really want you to lean in. And I know you love your mom. She's probably the unhealthiest one for you because she's kind of reinforced this wiring. You're wired like this. And then she modeled it for 30 something years with your father, your sister, because she's wired a little bit different than you. I kind of like that. And because Jacob really encourages you and your autonomy and you doing things for yourself. He's a really good place, too. Not saying not to lean into mom, but that's. That's a little slippery slope. She'll give you your supply.

Yeah.

But it is also enabling.

Yeah.

Okay. And you've got me. So.

Yeah.

Help you with that. So one of the things that I talk about are these things called wings. Right. And each enneagram type has specific wings based on whatever their type is. So as a two, you have a three on one side, which I See a lot in you and then you have a one on the other side of you. So when this over helpful, over giving, like making it all about everyone else feels really natural to you, it isn't always the right tool for the job. Because a, you can enable other people because you just want everybody happy. You can also not take good care of yourself. You can also end up down a rabbit hole of other people's shit that is not yours. And so what I'll tell people that are twos. My son, I'm like, all right, go to the one wing first. Because they are the warden, the sheriff, they're straight shooting black and white, thinking where that two in you is like, oh, but they may feel a certain way. You're a lot of gray area in the 2.

Sometimes you need a straight shoot in black and white. This is wrong. And my son uses this one wing. You got to be careful because you can kind of become self righteous if you're not careful. But when the two in you wants to just like give people grace too much. There is such a thing as giving people grace, which otherwise known as enabling sometimes, right? Because we don't want to deal with hurting them or God forbid they'd not like you. So kind of using the one wing. Is this wrong? And it's either a hell yes or hell no. There's no gray area with the one, right? But the one doesn't necessarily want to rock the boat either. So the two in you is like, yeah, but let's just say this in a nice way. So nobody hates us. And the one is saying but it's bullshit. But they really don't want to do anything about it either because they got things to do. They got higher standards, high integrity. They want to be seen as good. So it's not really helping you. But going over to the three wing after you've been able to assess like this is bullshit and I'm gonna have to say no to whatever or like the two in you is gonna wanna say, but how can we say this where everybody still loves me? Yeah, well, the three on the other side of you is the achiever. They are driven by significance too, but they are driven by the significance of an end goal. They're all about what they do or what they achieve and how they appear different than the two. Still significant driven. But once the three sees.

They put blinders on and they don't care what's in their way, people, places or things. I'm not saying that that's the healthy part of the three, but you can take the healthy parts of the three and saying, okay, bottom line is this. This is not okay. I'm going to have to draw the line in the sand. And so that three is the executor. All right, so we have growth numbers and stress numbers. And so the stress number when you're over giving doesn't work anymore and you're still feeling the rumble inside of you when the resentment starts to kick in, like nobody's reciprocating this. Doesn't anybody see all the things that I do for them? Don't they see the sacrifice I've been making? Probably Your sister, your husband probably see this more than anybody. You can look like an unhealthier version of me. That's where you can kind of become defensive. A little sharp tongued, a little nasty. Mm. A little martyr. Yeah, right. Because you have like, the over giving isn't working anymore and nobody is seeing this. And it's the only way to get the attention. It's why you poked the bear with your sister, too.

Yeah.

Okay, so when you catch that and me understanding this, that when my son would slip into that, oh, my God, we almost killed each other because I didn't understand what was happening. I just thought he was being a little disrespectful asshole. But now, knowing that's where he's going when he's been over giving, I can be a little more compassionate now and say, okay, what can you take off your plate right now?

Who can you say no to right now? Okay, what can you cancel on your schedule right now? Because if you go to that eight where it's explosive, I don't give a shit when I'm like that because I don't care. Like, I'll let the chips fall where they may, but because you're a two, you will bury yourself in more shame because you thought you were an asshole.

Yeah, I don't get explosive. I get passive aggressive. And then I beat myself up for being passive aggressive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's not a win win for you. So when you kind of sense yourself going to passive aggressiveness instead of going to shame sticking yourself, I want you to go to Compassion. It's just like, you know, we go to the gym to work out the muscles, right? And. And we do the thing. But you've heard you can't outwork, you can't out eat or you can't outwork.

Cannot work a bad diet.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. I want you to know that Shame is like ho hos. Like you can work this muscle all day long, but if you're feeding it shame, it's kind of counterproductive. Yeah. The nutrition to make this muscle stronger is compassion. Okay. All right. So when you catch yourself in that instead of going, oh my God, I'm terrible, I want you to think about the little girl that was like trying to navigate dad explosiveness, Mom's martyr martyrness and the over giving and the God, you know, God forbid we don't do it mom's way. I want you to think about that beautiful little six year old and you wouldn't bury her in shame. Okay. So the beautiful part about the two is your growth number. And when I. It's what makes me so happy when I see your love for horses and animals and things like that. Because the growth number for the two is the four, which is the individualist, which if you think about it, it is the least place that A2 would typically go is, you know, finding that significance within. Okay. That no external forces gives you significance. The four is all about what's it within.

Are you saying it's not typical that 4 is a 2's growth number?

No, no.

But it is mine.

It's not your natural go to. It is.

Okay, got it.

It's like my growth number is two. That's the the hardest. It's like the stretch. So when you go to do things by yourself, it's usually where you'll sabotage because you're like, oh my gosh, I'm being so selfish. I should be going doing something else right now. Thankfully, your love for horses, really. Because that's when you're your happiest.

Yeah.

It's because you're in your four. Wow.

Okay.

It's because. So when my son started picking up hobbies that were just about him and he's always played team sports and was always the captain. You doing things that require no atta girls and no you doing stuff for everybody else like the horses is perfect for you. It's all about you and an animal. Very cool. And they love you unconditionally. So finding more things that, I mean, you will be naturally involved with people and connections and relationships. You don't need any more of that in your free time. Okay. I want you to focus some of your free time on things just about you.

Yeah.

And when you catch yourself feeling like it's selfish compassion.

Yeah.

Because you focus on that healthy four, you can look it up. Like all the healthy beautiful parts, they're the greatest storytellers it's why you're great at what you do. They are the creatives. It's why you're good at creative marketing. They are musicians, comedians. They. They bring our life to art. Like they bring all of this. But if you're over giving, you can't tap into that.

Okay.

All right. So what are you feeling right now?

Oh my gosh, I feel so seen. It's funny because I texted you when you sent me the assessment and I said, tracy, oh, I get nervous taking these assessments because I tend to overthink my answers and wonder if I'm doing it wrong. And I love that you told me these are wrong almost always. 65, 70% of the time. And that's why we're doing this call. Because my favorite thing is to be able to surrender to an expert and feel taken care of in the way that I like to take care of other people. And so I've been so excited to do this with you and everything that you've said this entire time has been so spot on. And I just, I'm so excited to have this clarity because I feel like you just have seen through me in such a powerful way.

There's going to be one more piece of this that is going to blow your mind though, because I didn't know you right away, because I didn't see your heart right away, because I'm not warm and fuzzy right at first because I'm scanning for my own kind of deal. But the instinctual response you have to life is more of the self preservation where a lot of twos can be all about everyone else. Even though you kind of are, you do it in a way that's a little more reserved than the typical outward two. Right. And so the self preservation two looks a little bit different than the other twos. So when you go to kind of look about it specifically Google like self preservation 2 because this is called the counter type of the twos. This is the one that one of these things does not look like the others. A lot of times this self preservation 2 can mistype as a 7 or a 6, which is what I kind of thought you were. Yeah, you're cute. Often childlike in that you are slightly shy, but charming and you inspire protective instincts in others. The Self Preservation 2 wants to be taken care of but resist being dependent on others.

Oh gosh, yes.

So spot on, hesitant, self protective and taking on long term commitments and responsibilities. And you can feel hurt or withdraw when you feel or fear rejection from others. Where like some of the other Twos will go into hyper overdrive. Like, I will make you like me and it. My son kind of can do that. Like you'll kind of more withdraw first. Except with your maybe key people.

Yeah.

When I was like reading about like the subtypes of the two, I was like, all right, this is why I thought she was a six.

Yeah.

And it's why seven popped up. One of your top scores as well.

That all makes perfect sense for sure.

I want you to know you probably just helped so many two entrepreneurs. A lot of times I get twos wondering if they are good for entrepreneurship because they care so deeply. Their feelings do get hurt. And you're a beautiful example of somebody that does feel deeply but can persevere. And your genuine desire to learn more about yourself, not so you can get more atta girls, but so that you can be the best version of yourself. Because knowing when that is is how you can serve people better.

Thank you so much.

Did I love it? I did.

I'm so grateful. This is so. I'm so excited to go down the rabbit hole and.

Yeah, well, you know where to find me. You can text me and I can talk about this shit all day long.

Amazing.

And I know that many of you listening are like, oh, my God, that was so powerful. Especially on my twos. I get a lot of twos listening that like, you're a beautiful example of, even at your young age, what that looks like when they're healthy. And. And if you want to explore what this looks like, you go to tracyomalley.com the work with me section on that website and we will deep dive for 90 whole minutes together. Dorothy, I love you, girl. Thank you for doing this.

Thank you, Tracy. I'm so freaking grateful. I'm just. I can't say enough about what an experience this has been.

And this is what happens when you become the ultimate leader in your life. Until next time.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the Leadership Formula podcast. Please help us spread the word about this show by sharing it with a friend and leaving a written Apple podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me directly on Instagram at traceyomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@traceomalley.com I'm excited to lead you into the next level of your life.

Sat.