EP203: Live Enneagram Typing: Getting Out of Your Head and Into Your Heart to Serve and Make an Impact with Jim Carter III (Enneagram 5)

Welcome to the Leadership Formula podcast, where you will learn the secret sauce behind achieving massive success. I'm your host, Tracy o', Malley, multimillion dollar entrepreneur, your Enneagram expert, master performance coach, and mom to millennials. Do you want deep, meaningful relationships to wake up every day with purpose and make money doing something you love? Well, you've landed in the right place. Every week, I will teach you how to get exactly what you want in life by strengthening your emotional intelligence. Using a combination of the Enneagram framework, live life coaching sessions, and real talk from yours truly. It's time to transform yourself into the ultimate leader of your life. Let's do this thing.

All right, you guys, this is one of your favorite kinds of episodes today, and we are doing a live typing session, Enneagram style, with my dear friend, Jim Carter. So this is a guy, you guys, you love hearing from the men, and I love talking to men, especially men that are saying, hey, I want to know more about myself and how I can be the very best version of me. And I. Gosh, I met. When did I meet you? About three years ago, in person. We've kind of been in the same circle for a while, but in person, I think it was in. In a mastermind. And I just knew, like, I'm going to tell you right now, I think I know what he is on the Enneagram, and it's my favorite type on the Enneagram. So for those of you that listen religiously, you know who I'm talking about.

But there's this quiet kind of power that I felt immediately in his presence. And he is one of those people that when he opens his mouth, you can't help but pay attention and be captivated by whatever he's saying, and you trust whatever is coming out of his mouth. And specifically, he is kind of in the tech space, and he is like a digital tech guru. Like, I, like, salivate when I listen to him because it's an area that drives me crazy, and I really want to throw things and punch things. So when Jim speaks, I definitely listen. And the beautiful part about it is he explains things in a way that doesn't make me feel like a freaking idiot. And that is something that's beautiful, that is somebody that is definitely about teaching, that is about serving the greatest good and the collective, which I love about him. You guys are going to hear some pretty cool stuff about this guy. Jim, I'm so excited you're here.

Oh, Tracy, I adore you. Thank you for having me.

You're awesome. Hey, when is your birthday?

April 5th, 1981. This is my big four zero year.

Oh my gosh. We are Aries twins.

I know it.

I am an April 3rd baby, but like a whole decade after you, so it's okay.

21 shows great on you.

Thank you. Okay, so we got some Aries fire. I knew it. I knew it. So one of the things about the Enneagram, it's kind of like your Aries ness. Your Aries doesn't change regardless of what's happening. But the expression of how you show your Aries ness can, depending on the moons and all the components of the birth charts and things like that. The Enneagram is the same way. I believe you're born with a temperament, disposition and a calling on your soul. And then we're dropped into these environments and families and situations and experiences that can kind of alter the expression of, you know, our soul's roadmap, so to speak. That being said, where did you grow up and what did a little gym look like back, back in 1981?

It's a great question. So I grew up in the, let's say the suburbs of Los Angeles. Smaller town called West Covina. And it's about 30, 30 some miles outside of, let's just say LA proper. So if you're kind of, if you picture Los Angeles kind of right next to the coast, draw dry line inland a little bit. So let's just say it was maybe like a 45 minute drive to the beach just to kind of give a wide perspective on where I lived. Only child, grew up to two loving parents. I am Jim Carter iii, namesake after my grandfather. So I grew up with a lot of love in the household. When I was a year old, let's see, my. My parents had me in their early 20s. When I was about a year old, my father came down with cancer unexpectedly and nearly survived. It's a, it's a longer story, but by the only way that it could be stated as a miracle, he truly did survive. And he became completely cancer free in remission. Cancer unfortunately did take him a little over 10 years ago came back. But he definitely got that golden ticket to live life again. And forever grateful because of that, because that gave me my father back that I never would have known. And I didn't really see it early on when I was a little kid because obviously I was years old when it happened and I didn't understand what's going on. I was one to two. But they made sure that I was aware how much love was in the House. And not in an entitlement way or anything. I didn't grow up with a lot of money. My family was like a payoff credit card with another credit card kind of family. Not in a we managed money incorrectly way, but in a my parents got creative. Our family vacations were road trips up the California coast. And I had just as much fun as I'm sure we would have if we went to Europe. But again, the love was there, and that was really resounding in my childhood. My father was a big believer in the Boy Scouts of America and that program. He sort of dedicated his life to that program to be the betterment of young men. So not just for me, but for many others. In fact, one of my best friends who I met early on, let's just say, like, junior high type of time when we were growing up in Scouting, he's still one of my best friends to this day. We both made Eagle Scout together. Kind of a healthy challenge growing up. And he grew up without a father. And my dad was sort of like his dad. That was sort of just like the vibe that my parents put off. So, again, very loving, very nurturing, very, very respectful of me, kind of learning my own way and growing. And also, both of my parents very open to my entrepreneurial tendencies, which my parents did not have. So when I told them I wanted to go to, you know, an art school to pursue, you know, digital marketing, they were just like, wait, what? And how much is this? And the fact that I started my own business, you know, while I was in high school and things like that, they got really uncomfortable, but they knew that I had that fire and that I was willing to try some stuff. So I absolutely love growing up as an only child. Although my parents did want to have multiple cancer, unfortunately made that decision for my parents. But it gave me a chance to try things on my own and to stand tall and to see where I. Where I kind of like what I can see. And from there, I'm just grateful that my parents gave me the opportunities that they both could and would afford. They definitely went into debt so I could go to better schools. And education just became very, very valuable to me at a very early age. And my wife and I both value education as well, and we offer the same for our children now, which is why we're really big supporters of the education system and scouting. That extra time with my parents being an only child and being able to kind of suck all that up and have that perspective, all of those things really added to a childhood that I'm.

Very proud of what a gift to have parents that just could recognize that you're wired a little bit different than them, but also nurture that and empower that in you. What was mom like? Or what is mom like?

Mom is still around. She. She is wonderful. Mom was very dependent on my father. So when he passed, unfortunately, a little over 10 years ago, it devastated her, obviously, all of us, but it really hurt her heart. She loved being dependent on my dad. He provided, he took care of her, and that was also, I think, a family trait. My. My grandmother, she never went to high school. My grandfather just took care of everything. Never got a driver's license, stayed home, took care of the kids. And I think it was just her upbringing, the way that she grew. But even with that, you know, she was still supervisor. She. She managed multiple. She was always very involved. She knew how to take charge of what she wanted, but she was very happy, sort of just releasing that need. And because of that, my dad passed. It was really hard on her. That said, though, she has really come around, and I'm. I'm so incredibly proud of her. She just started traveling on her own, so she lives in the retirement community now. Ann is doing trips with other people in the community and finally got her passport and is just stretching out and trying new things. Mom is very loving. She absolutely loves spending time with our girls. Two girls, ten and a half and nine. In fact. She's. She's going to watch them for a little bit of time this holiday, which is great. The girls get some grandma time, and my wife and I get a little bit of personal time as well, which any. Any parent listening knows how valuable that is when you can get, let's just say, free babysitting for a period of time. So mom is great. She absolutely pours into us, offers us all the advantages that she can offer, even financially, to the point where when we recently relocated, she gave us a temporary loan just so we had a little bit more that we could put into the investment of our new home and repaid it back. And those little things which don't even add up to being little, they just go so far. And I have a really good relationship with my mom.

That's awesome. What would you say, if you're thinking back to when you were younger, how did you know, like, that mom loved you? Like, what were the things that mom really appreciated and loved about who you were and that she let you know about?

That's a great question, Chasey. One of my earliest memories of mom pouring, pouring into me, I would say, is through the Boy Scout program when I was old enough to join the youngest rank. It's called Tiger Cubs. It's basically for. If I get this right, it's around kindergarten to preschool, like those kind of ages for. For little boys. Right. And all you do is. You do, like, sticker games and, you know, you have parties and stuff. But it's. It's. It's a social interaction component of the scouting program. My parents couldn't find what was called a Tiger Cub pack at the time that they loved, so my parents created one. I have a memory of being tiny little guy running around a parking lot, like, trying to kill the time while my parents were there in the back of their car, like, holding a drive, trying to get other parents to sign up. And my mom was the leader because my dad was too weak. And it wasn't. It wasn't that my dad didn't want to, and it wasn't that she wouldn't have if he was strong enough. It was because she really wanted to do that with me. She. I think she. This is a great question. I think I'm going to ask her over the holidays, now that you bring this up, because I don't think it's ever come up. But I feel like she knew that my dad would enjoy so much more time with me as I grew as a man, that she wanted this time with me as a boy. And I have really good memories of us being at our tiny little house, which was, again, full of love and a bunch of other. Just kids running around and other parents and things. But she did all she could to be really part of that experience. But one of the earliest memories I have of that, we can kind of get a visual of all of this sort of like, chaos, which is a bunch of young boys kind of, you know, cruising around, running. And this isn't where you could just, you know, give them an iPad and get them to shut up for a few minutes. Talking mid-80s. That was one of the earliest experiences I have of. Of trying to. Trying to remember that.

I'm getting all choked up just thinking about the beautiful environment that you were so blessed with. And even, you know, I grew up with a mom that was very dependent on my father, but it wasn't necessarily coming from this loving place that yours did. And I resented it, quite honestly, because I judged my mom as like, get a backbone. Have a voice of your own. But your mom's dependence came from a very loving place, and it was a very complimentary place to Your dad. And it was to be able to be present fully as a mom. And I think also because of your dad's cancer and the choice being made for them that you're it. And it's going to be a miracle. And she's going to make sure that you know how loved you are and how supportive she could enhance whatever gifts your dad brought to the table. For sure. So even though you were really, really young when your dad seriously lived this miracle, like, it's amazing. I'm so grateful that you got 30 years with him. How did let you know that that was happening, but not like a burden you with it? Like, what. Where was this balance? Because I. I am a firm believer and I think you are too, of like being honest with our children. And there's this fine line between being honest and then like dumping our on them.

Absolutely. Yeah. We. I think we talked about this topic the last time we had dinner together. There's no. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's. It's what works for your family because everybody's cut differently specifically for us. I was a little shielded from it, rightfully so, for a good period of time, because I didn't know that I almost lost my dad, I think, until I started asking questions about did I almost lose my dad? Like, it was, you know, it's not one of those, like, let's not talk about Santa until somebody talks about Santa. And is that the real conversation? It was. I think what it was was I remember going through my mom's hope chest with her at one point, and we came across some pictures. And there was a picture that I don't think she was prepared for me to see, which was my dad starting his remission process, sitting in a wheelchair with his head so swollen it looked like a watermelon. And I just didn't know what I was looking at. I was like, is this dad? You know, it was. It was just a very, very strange feeling. And I remember viscerally, like, the feeling of wanting to puke because I was like, this is my dad. Like, I didn't understand. I was young enough, but old enough where they were. Okay. It's probably time to explain really, like, what happened to your father, like, what. What he went through. And this is a very long story, which I'll compress to like, the important parts. But that invoked the time where it was like, okay, now we're going to start to explain maybe just how fragile life is and both being grateful that I was a result of it. You know, had they decided to wait two more years to have a child, maybe it wouldn't have worked. That also saying I also live life with the knowledge that half of my DNA is composed of someone who we just truly believe. My father's body was flawed from the beginning. He suffered with high cholesterol. He had gout. Really bad, really, really horrible. Like gastric, I can't think of the word. But not even just from cancer, but he had a lot of problems, but it didn't stop him from being a good human. So I'm hyper aware that that ran in my. My bloodline and they wanted to be sure that I understood just really what went through. So from those early days, I started to have deeper conversations with my dad. And.

How old were you when you went through the hope chest with mom?

I want to say I was probably 7 or 9, I think. I think that was about the age. And from that point I just lived with a heightened level of awareness of what my dad did for his family in a. In a very selfless way. And he never really opened up too much about it because it was. He nearly died. Like, he got to the point where he was fully incapacitated. Doctors were like, he's not going to make it through the night. And as a miracle, that cancer vanished in his body.

Wow.

And because of that, he was 23 when that happened. He had testicular cancer. And lots of conversations between then and from there. But I'll never also forget the day that I went for a walk with my dad on my 23rd birthday and he just broke down in tears. And I was like, dad, what's going on? He's like, all I wanted was for you to outlive me. So to get to that point, to know that he had the willingness to put up the fight for his family, that was a really big moment for us.

I think this is such a beautiful moment and I think especially the timing of this episode is so beautiful because I think especially this time of year, you know, people get so wrapped up in the shit that does not matter. And even though maybe verbally you hadn't heard the story until that. And I love that you were the age, about the age that your girls are about right now. Like, that is a moment. Like when I looked at my kids in the things that I remembered as a kid, it was like so eye opening for me. And I think that it's coming full circle. You're one of the best fathers I've ever seen in my life, for sure. But I Think your parents embodied gratitude for life even before you knew the whole story and before your 7, 9 year old brain could even wrap your head around really the magnitude of what this is. They embodied gratitude and they embodied that life is a gift and you cherish it, and the people in it isn't about the things and it's about the experiences and the curiosity of life. And you embody curiosity, like, even before that. Like, you're like. And it's. It's so true for who you are in. In your work life, too. I mean, to be in the digital tech place. If you think about what you were saying earlier and you told your parents you wanted to go to, like, digital marketing school. I mean, you're 40, so this was like 20 years ago, before there was like the Internet, like full blown on every single device, you know, at our fingertips. This was like the big, huge, clunky computer, if you were lucky to have it kind of thing.

Yeah. And you were curious about it for context. The iPhone only came out in 2000.

Yeah.

So for everybody, everybody listening or watching, it's. This was before the modern era, like, Zoom wasn't there? None of this. It was no social media. No. None of that. I mean, we could date ourselves and talk about Fester and all that stuff, but we're not going to do that. But you're absolutely right. Tracy is. I never classified myself as type A visionary entrepreneur, and I was okay with that. But I did see the ability to kind of call my shot where I wanted to go with it. I just knew I had more of an operator brain. I was somebody who. I was more tactile. I could reverse engineer the future I wanted, but I really needed to see what I wanted. And that was something that. It both lit me up, but it also held me back for so many years, which is why I'm so excited to have this conversation.

Oh, my God.

More about me with you. Because we've talked about this for years. Years.

This. This is like. And this explains so much of why I love you so much. I am obsessed with people that are curious and like to reverse engineer shit. I like to reverse engineer people and psychology and like the human puzzle. I love people like you that want to reverse engineer all this really cool shit that just it fa. I am obsessed with people that are obsessed with how things work. And I think early on, like it, this battle, like you said, between the curiosity of how things work with this visionary entrepreneurial spirit that you actually do have, you have quite a bit of it, but they are conflicting of each other and finding a way to marry them together. You've done obviously in your professional life and now next level in what you're doing now. But even as a visionary, as the head of your household, I mean you very much are that visionary and that innovator of what works as a father, as a husband husband. What you have created in your home is something that's very, very beautiful and unique. Like you don't see what you guys have. You really, really don't vary very much and it's so special. So I just have a few more questions just to nail it down for sure. I already knew what you were on the enneagram and you know, I'm not to brag or anything, but I'm pretty damn good at this and that's the.

Reason we're doing this. Yeah, fire away. Let's do it.

I'm so excited. Would you say that when you're stressed or like you feel the overwhelm coming, would you say that it's rooted in this fear of not being equipped with the right information or the energetic resources? Would you say that that pretty much is the root of what stresses you out?

Within reason, I am very, very self reliant but also because I know I have what it takes to figure something out if I apply myself and give myself to space and that's. That' probably two really key pieces there is. I can Google like nobody else, right? Like I can teach you tricks about Google that you didn't know existed to get to that answer even faster. But I also have to be in the right headspace to want to do it. And when, when you're, when you're talking to a, a software engineer and for, for everybody listening here, we, we didn't talk about that, that middle period of my life. But I, when people say now what do you do? I basically say whatever it takes. And then the books a little laugh, which it's just there, right there.

But for real, I kind of consider myself a recovering software engineer because I spent two decades now, over half of my life building things right. And the only way you can do that is to figure shit out along the way, period. Like that hard stop. You will not last in this industry of being an engineer without being resilient and giving yourself space and grace and figuring it out. So if you ask me, hey Jim, would you. Let's just say I had never heard of cryptocurrency and I had this spark where I was like, well, I'm interested in it. Well, the question is sure I know I can figure it out. I know where to go. If I don't, I'll figure it out. But if I don't give myself the time to truly want to finish what I start, that's what drives me crazy. So to kind of answer your question with a little bit more context there, Tracy is I do believe I have what I need inside of me and I don't believe I need to be dependent. But I thrive on co dependency just as much as I thrive on being my own boss. And like you said, that that's where some of that conflict come up.

So one of the things that I had you narrowed down between two types, quite honestly, when I met you and have spent so much time with you, I was like, okay, he's either this or he's either that. And one of the things that can change and the big reason why a lot of people are mistyped on the Enneagram A is trauma. And number two is the instinctual reaction to life. Right. There's three different instincts within the Enneagram that we're operating with. So if you do the math, there's nine basic types with three instincts for each type. So it's actually 27 different types. And so we use all three instincts, but one usually dominates and one's pretty much a blind spot unless we've evolved. And you've really evolved for sure. I can see you toggling between the three in our time together. I can see when you're kind of in self preservation, when you're more in the one on one, which is like the intensity of experience and then the social response, which that instinct focuses on energy, working, shared purpose or for the greatest good. And you know, when I met you, your handle was like, cause. Is it cause maker?

Cause hacker?

Cause hacker. Cause hacker. That's right. And you know, I thought maybe you were a six on the Enneagram because you're a more outgo going and especially around that. But you actually are a 5 on the Enneagram which is called the quiet specialist, with the subtype of that social instinct. So you can imagine a five that is this quiet specialist, but with the instinct that focuses energy on, you know, the greatest good, shared, you know, the shared purpose. So you have like somebody who's a genius at what they do and then that Cause hacker. Now growth hacker. I love that too. So the social 5. 5 looks a little bit different than the very, very introverted, typical stereotypical 5. Like the thing that the memes are made of is like the Fives in The corner, you know, like never wanting to people. Right. You are more introverted and quiet. But you, you very much are about community. One of the best, quite honestly. So the, the social five searches for the essence or meaning of situations. And I believe this, this kind of instinct was rooted in the environment you grew up in. Like you were always this quiet specialist. But because of the gratitude and the appreciation for life and community and the boy scouts and mom and both of your parents, I think that this is where this got amplified. And you focus on the big questions as you pursue wisdom and knowledge. For sure. The social five connects with with groups or experts who share their brilliance and high ideals. This is your gift that you can often disconnect from everyday issues or emotions. That's your gift and also can be your downfall. Right. And we'll kind of talk about that for a second. You can share values and ideals with energy. Enthusiasm is why I'm obsessed when you speak because whatever you're excited and passionate about, you are all in. And there's nothing more beautiful than somebody that exudes confidence in what they're talking about. And nobody does it like a five, especially a social five. So you want to know some of your superpowers as a five?

Oh yeah. That's why I'm here. Let's do this.

We already know. We already know. Like you are brilliant. And it's true. If I was to be left with one type to pick to hang out with or be stuck on an island with, it would always be a five. And I'll explain why we get each other so much and why you and your current business partner work so well together. It's going to make a heck of a lot of sense.

Sense.

So enneagram fives have the motivational need to know and understand. They like to know all the things about the things that they're passionate about. If they're not interested or they think it's like not for them, they don't care. Right. Where the six needs to know everything about everything because they want to be prepared and equipped. The five just wants to know and understand how things work that apply to them and the things that they're passionate about. You value making sense of the world around you. As a result, objectivity and knowledge are important to you. Education 5 Strive for independence, appreciate privacy and tend to conserve your resources to ensure future independence. And this is where you being a social five really helps because a lot of the other kind of fives, the self preservation especially and the one on one the problem with being this quiet Specialist is because they're fearing that they're not going to be equipped or with the proper resources. Sometimes they'll have all this brilliance and wisdom, but they'll hoard it. Because they're like, I have to conserve. I have to conserve. But you're the opposite. You are the most giving of knowledge of any five that I've ever met, thank God, because we need you. We need your brilliance, we need your wisdom, and we need your ability to articulate it without the attachment to all the emotion that especially something like tech. Nothing makes me more emotional than dealing with tech. So you offer the gift of nana attachment to yourselves in the world. It's where you can be very objective. When you're not so healthy, though, others can experience you as stingy, like hoarding that resources, wisdom, energy, intellectually arrogant. I don't see that in you. At least I've met you in this evolving part of your life. But I'm sure there were moments in your life that is like, this is beneath me, right? Because we all have.

Oh, yeah, yeah. We've all. We've all gone through that in some phase. I absolutely have as well.

And probably the biggest thing is what I say. A lot of time, your superpower is your superpower when it's coming from love, compassion, empathy, service, grace and confidence, right? So all these things I'm about to tell you about, your superpowers are all those things, and I see them in you all the time. I don't live with you. Right? And usually the people that live with us are really, really into our every single day. See these same things become our kryptonite, right? When they're coming from our fears, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, or ego. And fives and eights, which is what I am, have some pretty big egos sometimes, and it's usually coming from a place of protection, right? So your gifts, very perceptive. Obviously, you have insight that most people don't even think about. That's why I'm obsessed. But you can also see that, you know, this complexity and this perception that you have that other people don't, especially if you start speaking it in a language that feels very condescending or, like I said, arrogant. Intellectually, you can lose the whole crowd. You don't like. This is what I love about you, is you. You take something that's so complex in my head and make it like, oh, it's not like, oh, okay. It's beautiful. You're very curious, right? Like, even as a little boy, absolutely curious. The Thing like that's what makes you an innovator and a visionary for sure. Where that can get you into trouble is when you are avoiding dealing with life. And you can be so curious that you're down the rabbit hole, right? And it can keep you from procrastinating, even stonewalling. It can kind of even be a passive aggressive move if you're not careful. Unsentimental. This is your gift and also can be your downfall when it's matters of the heart. We need some sentiments here, right? But your ability to be objective is because you are. You can disconnect very easily from the emotion of it. Self sufficient. You're wired that way. Plus being an only child, I think also does that. Where that's your gift is you don't have to be micromanaged. Give you a task, you'll figure it out. Give a five something to learn about, they will come back with everything you've ever wanted to know about that thing. It's great. Where this can get you into trouble again is you don't always play well with others. Like you said, you've been an independent entrepreneur up until what, this last year? Up until like 39. Yeah, 38. 39 years old. It's very hard for you to work with other people. Not because you think you're better than, but energetically. It's a lot. It's a lot. And then you're inventive. Clearly. Sometimes a 5 can be so inventive that nothing gets off the ground because it's like they're more attracted to the learning about it than the actual executing of it. Does all that ring true to you so far?

Yeah, spot on.

Okay. So anytime you do a project, having the right tool for the job is what's really, really important, Right? So as a five, like you can be innovative and curious and figure shit out in your sleep. You don't really need a lot of motivation to get that done. Right. But actually executing some of this intelligence and wisdom maybe in the past has been where you get held up. Would that be accurate?

Indeed.

Okay, so you do your Fiveness in your sleep. Now what's beautiful about the Enneagram is we have these two things. Every Enneagram type has two wings. Okay. And I like to kind of call them like the tools in the tool belt. And you're never motivated by these two types. Then they're the types that are on either side of you. So, you know, if you're looking at the diagram of the Enneagram, it goes in a big Circle, and, you know, the five is there, and then there's a four on one side and a six on the other. Okay, so those are your two wings. Doesn't mean you're going to be motivated like the loyal skeptic, which is the six. It doesn't mean you're going to be motivated like the four, which is the individualist, sometimes known as the romantic. But you can tap into the beautiful qualities and traits of them. We can also use the not so healthy parts of them too. But I see you really using them because in order to step into your growth number, which we'll talk about in a minute, we need these wings and these tools. It's kind of like, you know, in a movie. The best movies aren't because of the main character. The best movies that are out there have the best supporting cast. Always, always, always, always. And same thing with us stepping into the greatest version of ourselves. We can't do it without the help of the supporting cast, otherwise known as our wings. So what I'll usually say to a five, if they're going down the rabbit hole of information and gathering and getting wisdom and. And learning, that's great. But information doesn't equal transformation. So with you having a six wing, this is the skeptic, the loyal skeptic. They're the master troubleshooters. They. This is what I thought you might have been, because they know everything about everything, because they want to be prepared. They're more worried about being blindsided by something where you're more worried about not having the knowledge and the resources. Right. Big difference in motive. Big difference in motive. And so the 6 is like the master collaborators. They want to work with teams. They're great with working with teams, which I can see you definitely stepping into this when you're dealing with tech and the things that, you know, I see you using, like, okay, this is the information, but here are the what ifs and the worst case scenario, that's what a six does. Like, they are the troubleshooters. They are like, if this goes sideways, this is what we do. If this is go sideways, this is what we do. Where the five can be more bullet points. This is what it is. The six is like. And if this goes sideways here, this is here, this is here. So that's really good. And I see you doing that. Now. The 6 can also get wrapped up in, like, information as well, mainly because they're afraid of being blindsided. They don't always execute either. Right. Sometimes they can, sometimes they. They don't. But on the Other side of you is the Enneagram four. And the four on the Enneagram has the biggest capacity for emotion. And they are the creatives of the Enneagram. They are the artists, the storytellers, the comedians, the songwriters. They are where everything is felt, right? They're driven by this internal significance. Where some of the other types are about external significance, the 4 is all about internal significance. And I very much feel that you were given an environment to really embody this as well. And this is where that cause hacker really comes into play too. This is like what really freaking matters. What is really important in the grand scheme of things. Yes, you love information. Yes, you are curious. Yes, you love to reverse engineer the crap out of things. And yes, you can even troubleshoot. But the filter that I see you running everything through at the end of the day is that four wing, what really fricking matters in the grand scheme of things. And what feels good, not just to me, but the greatest good. You embody this so beautifully. And what happens when A5 can use both of those wings like you do so elegantly is you actually go into your growth number. So each Enneagram type has a growth number that really does look very different than our core type of. So it'd be like an Aries. You know, we're fire signs, right? We're known to be kind of hot heads. Just take no shit, go after it, right? Worry about it later. It would be like us looking like a Pisces, which is like the water sign. Very feely, right? And emotional. We don't typically look like that. A 5 is typically very reserved, quiet, more introverted, right? But your growth number is actually an 8, which is what I am and what I believe your business partner is. And this is a good thing. This is a good thing. It's why fives and eights. It's why I love fives. And I think why fives really appreciate me because I am more quiet and reserved. Because that's my stress number. My stress number is five. So when I'm under stress, I look more like you. And I start building cases and getting very introverted and like, what's this really about? That's how I ended up studying this. But for a five to move to that eight, you need the six and the four, because that eight is like, let's freaking go. The eight is not afraid of anything to a fault sometimes. But for your growth number, this is where it's actually a really good thing. You embody like the. Cause they're called the Protective challenger for a reason. Mother Teresa was an eight, and, you know, she stood up for what was right. And because you're that social five and out for the greatest good, I believe it's why you're able to go to that eight much easier and why you appreciate your business partner. Where most people might be really, like, that's a lot of energy. You actually appreciate it because you do embody it. The other number that we have that's connected to each of us is our stressor number. Now, you can use it in a healthy way, which I do see you doing it, and you've probably used it in a not so healthy way. So when this needing information doesn't work anymore and it's not calming the crazy in you, right? Like, you're still feeling anxious and like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. What can happen for a five is they kind of look a little scattered and a little all over the place. Even though we may not outwardly see it, very rarely will we see a five outwardly losing it.

But internally, it's like all the wheels are spinning at the same time, and it's frantic and it's panicky. So a five under stress can take on the unhealthy parts of the seven, which is the enthusiastic visionary. Their core motive is to, like, have all options at all time. They want to avoid pain. They need certainty that they're not going to be stuck anywhere. So when a 5 is under extreme stress, they can kind of mimic that. That and look like, oh, I got to do this. I got to know this. I got to know this. I got to know this. And when you're coming from that place, nothing. Nothing kind of sinks in. Right. And so recognizing when that's coming up for you to kind of pause, and that's when you'll use your wings. Okay, what's really going on here? Why do I feel like this? What can I do to kind of delegate or calm my nervous system or things like that?

That.

It's pretty cool, but I see that's really cool.

I see you actually using that. The beautiful aspects of the seven as well. This is the holy grail of the enneagram, is when you can use all the beautiful parts of all four of the types that are connected to you. So even though you're a five, and you'll always be a five, just like you'll always be an Aries, I really do see you embodying the four, the six, the seven, and the eight so beautifully in a way that allows the world to get to experience the beauty that you are, not just all of us that get to experience it in this world of entrepreneurship, but more importantly, in your family and in your home with your wife and your daughters and your mom. You really are, like I said, a visionary for the legacy that you will leave behind long after your time on earth is done. And I'm sure your dad is looking down at you and he's so damn proud of what you're doing.

Tracy, let me tell you, that was. That was very, very cool for the way that you ran through all of that. I absolutely saw something in me for each of those numbers that you called out. Granted, I don't know all of the different numbers and how they're all different, but at least the ones that you mentioned for me. So the first things that came to mind when you're talking about the wings, so help coach me through this again. The. The first one you mentioned, I think was six, where it was more about, like, being prepared and having every use case possible. At first, when you were saying that, I was thinking, actually, maybe that is me. Like, maybe that one piece is there. But when you continue to unpack it, about how that fundamentally is different, where it's. There's. There's being prepared, which, by the way, is the Boy Scout motto, which I grew up with, that mindset just sort of ingrained in me. There's one thing to be prepared and then to be okay with it. And I guess there's another thing in the way that I process it is to be prepared but then not be okay with it, to continue to obsess about it, to have every possible. There's so many ways that I could go on that route. Maybe I just don't go on any because I won't decide. So for me, I've. I've gotten to the point where I. I thrive in knowing that I can be prepared, and I execute based off of a level of risk that I'm comfortable with knowing what I'm up against. So it's kind of the difference between we go on vacation as a family, and I like to have basic plans like I'd like to know is there.

That's why you're a five available. That's why you're a five and not a six.

Is there some cool stuff we can do? And when I need to, I can exercise those plans, but we are not an itinerary. Okay, wake up at 7:48 and then have exactly 12 minutes to get ready, and then we're out the door. By, you know, eight. That kind of thing.

Yeah.

So that came to mind when you were mentioning that one. So that. That was very cool because I've never had anybody explain that to me that way.

Yeah.

And I lived a good majority of my life feeling like I was plagued by that. So to have that reflected to me, that was very cool. And then that was the six. So the four, which is the other wing. Hard. Yes. I mean, my why is my family. And a while back, for anybody here who's read the Simon Sinek book or listen to that, start with why. I've determined that my personal why is to help people who help people. And simply because it's that K factor, it's the viral effect, it's the little thing that you can do that would unlock the big thing for somebody else. And it doesn't have to be with philanthropy. It could be as simple as offering help to our mastermind group, to a friend circle, to somebody who's just hard on their luck, because I know what that would unlock for them. So that's really what converted me from being what I consider a growth hacker to a cause hacker is it lights me up to remind me that when life gets hard, which it always does, always. And I'm not looking for sympathy when I make big choices, I'm looking to feel empowered so I can continue to reflect back on the why. So that's a really big piece for me because charity is wonderful, but doing it also for intrinsic value, something that matters to your core, to me, makes a lot of sense.

There is nothing better than an Enneagram 5 with that strong 4 wing. Because the ability to be wise and curious and thought out, but also have the emotional capacity to really. To remember what's really, really important and to get to the heart of matters and to connect at a human level with the people we love and the people we lead. There is not a better sign on the Enneagram than a five with a strong four wing. There really, really isn't. Because you bring the best of both. You bring wisdom and heart together in a way that is so beautiful. And when you do that, then you are all. You can operate in the instinctual part of that eight as well, to that.

Point, about striving towards the eight. I suppose that it's a perfect depiction of where I'm going. Right. Because it is. I mentioned earlier, just in this conversation, I went a lot of years without not thinking that I was the visionary type. I self identified as like, no, I'm the operator.

I'm the Quiet specialist.

Yeah. I'm not Elon designing the car. I'm the engineer that's making the car actually work and taking that vision and turning it into something. But more recently, just about a year or two ago, I was coaching, you know her, she's a common friend, Sandy Vo. Through the masterminds and everything. I had hired Sandy as my coach, and she is just so soulful and so connected, but also so empowering and just has a way of kind of seeing not just into you, but almost through you and helping you see yourself. And I remember I was. I was chatting with Sandy one time, and I just. I caught myself going down this rabbit hole of just, like, saying it over and over and over. I'm not the visionary. That's. That's not my type. And she was like, jim, stop. And she just. She. She shot back so many ways, like you just did with my family. And I never even thought of it that way. So thank you for that. I received that. Of all of these ways, like, who are you kidding? Look at all the stuff you've accomplished, all the things you've led, all the. All of the. The people you've inspired, all of these things. And it just was like a sucker punch that I needed. And I was like, actually, you're damn right. I just never gave myself the credit to think about it. And ever since that point, that was a turning point for me where I do really want to be a leader that others can follow. And I'm actively pursuing that, but not forgetting the why and not forgetting my balance and how. That's unique for me. So as I'm growing this new team and complimenting my business partner who, as we. I think you said, is a hard eight.

Probably. I'd probably put money on it.

It. Yeah. Yeah. I think I have two at this point. It's absolutely an investment. The. The ability for me to lean in that way more and be more inspired by the Move fast and break a few things, not move fast and break everything. You know, is kind of like my special balance. And I told him, I want you to have 10 ideas a week, and it's fine if nine of them are horrible, but that one, we're not going to necessarily act on it. We're going to. We're going to unpack it. And it's that balance between before. He's just going for it. And I absolutely admire that in a human. Because I am not that person.

Right.

I've had all those ideas. Like, I've got a list to the floor of app Ideas over the last 15 years that I've had that I never built because I never decided to do it.

But you're somebody. Like, my best friend's a six. And although RT and I are wired like we're going to go for it and deal with it later, you guys keep us out of a lot of trouble. And I love that you're like, throw all the ideas out here. We'll figure out which ones we can execute that make the most sense. And like, that's why it works. And he inspires you to take action. That's my best friend. I'm like, ask me all the questions you want. Like, let's get all worst case scenarios out. But we're still freaking taking action. And he does that for you, right?

He does, he does. Because if I, in the absence of it, previous to this newer business, I found myself with the lack of inspiration and the why wasn't strong enough. I knew the why was there and I was happy to do it, but I wasn't dreaming big enough. I wasn't shooting high enough. I wasn't proud of the leaps that I knew I was meant to take. And I just didn't know what I was missing. And that's what Sandy gave back to me as a gift was showing me you're leaping and you believe that you've got it. It you're just not expecting that you're going to land there. And that was a huge wake up call for me for a while. I thought about like, should I find like a vision coach? And as silly as that kind of sounded to me, it made a lot of sense. I was like, I need somebody who can just fire me up to think bigger. It just so happens I found a business partner. So I love. This is the beautiful part profile there.

Yeah, this is the beautiful part. And this is what unlocked everything for me, this framework. You know, I'm a very like, okay, bottom line me. How does this like work? I want to understand. I like to understand shit too. And the same kind of aha moment happened for me 10 years ago because I'm an 8 and I just assumed. I just don't have a heart. I'm just like an asshole and I just, I'm a bull in a china shop, right? And I kind of wore that also as a badge of honor, but also as a protective mechanism. And I think you not wearing the visionary hat, that was a way that if I'm not a visionary and if I don't execute, then I'm not a failure or I don't suck at life. But when I started looking at the framework of my eightness and realized my growth number is the two on the Enneagram, which is the most compassionate, empathetic, biggest connector most about relationships on the Enneagram, I was like, oh my God, I don't see that. But it's because I'd been in the walls of protection and ego and fear and insecurity and the framework and understand kind of what I just explained to you. But from the eight zone, I was like, oh, that's the growth number. That's the holy grail. Okay, how do I use my wings in order to lean into that? Because left to my own eight ways, I will never get there on my own. You will never get to that eight zone with just your five. You need the four and the six to do it. And it's beautiful to watch you step into that in all areas of your life now and and bring all this wisdom of yours to creation. So the rest of us that aren't skilled at all, like I know many of you listening right now need this man in your life and what he's doing. So tell the people what you're doing and where they can find you and learn from you and gain all your gifts.

Tracy, thank you so much. I loved thinking about life like this for this short period of time and it's given me a lot to think about and I and the way that I'm doing it is just by serving others as now everybody here knows a deeper piece of me than possibly even my wife. So this is going to be interesting. Can't wait to read the full report. No. Thank you so much, Tracy. So the things that I love to do the most is just make a bigger impact in the world through technology. And I embody that by doing it through what I'm great at, which is the hard things through tech. And I've spent so many years being that technical person as now you know that I just decided to do it in a bigger way. So I now just run agency models and the biggest way that I'm serving others is through a newer business venture. It's an agency model. Carter and Custer is the name of the agency. We just provide digital marketing services. We help bring dreams to life. The engineering aspect that I spent two decades figuring out and doing right, we can create something as beautiful and bespoke as your own application to helping take something like this show and turn it into social media content. Long form things for SEO and again doing the hard things that I love because Those are my kind of challenges. So, yeah, probably the simplest two ways. Instagram. I'm Oz Hacker. If you've heard that term growth hacker, we touched on that a little bit. I converted over to cause hacker because I wanted to do the things for growth, but with passion and with purpose. Purpose. So you can connect with me on Instagram at cause hacker. You can also just shoot me a text. I love answering questions, helping to give growth ideas. I always send out tips to people on my text list to get them motivated and a little bit less afraid of the text so it can just get out of their way. And that number is area code 310-496-3389. So you can shoot me a text as well or connect with me on Instagram. And I would love to help serve your audience in some small way to be able to let them make their impact through the world.

You guys, there's not anybody in this kind of space. I mean, there's a lot of frauds out there that do this stuff. And this is probably the most integrity filled coming from the right place person. I know I need you desperately. Like desperately. You guys, take a screenshot of this episode. We love the Enneagram Fives. All my fives out there, they're all just saying, hell yeah, bring it, bring it. And for those of you that love or lead in enneagram 5, I hope that this really opened your eyes to the gifts of them. Even when they're very, very quiet and don't always articulate the things that are in their heart, they feel very, very deeply. So go give them a big old hug and tell them you're grateful for them. And Jim, I love you so much. I'm so grateful for this opportunity to learn more about you, to love on you and just let you know how amazing I think you are.

Tracy, I appreciate you so much. Thank you too. I love you, sister. Thanks for having me today and letting me share a little piece of me with, with your community. And I hope, if nothing else, my story can help inspire some other Fives like me that there is this opportunity to make a bigger impact.

You served us all well. And because I'm very closely linked to the Five, you really mirror back to me the beautiful parts of the Fiveness that I don't always use because I usually use it with when I'm afraid I'm going to start using it more to shine my. My eightness even brighter. So thank you for blessing the socks off me today. For sure. I appreciate you.

Appreciate you too.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the Leadership Formula Podcast. Please help us spread the word about this show by sharing it with a friend and leaving a written written Apple Podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me directly on Instagram at tracyomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@traceeomalley.com I'm excited to lead you into the next level of your life.