EP234: Live Enneagram Typing Session - Competitiveness isn't always for the 'Achiever' with Jake Kelfer (Enneagram 8)

Welcome to the Leadership formula podcast, where you will learn the secret sauce behind achieving massive success. I'm your host, Tracy o', Malley, multimillion dollar entrepreneur, your Enneagram expert, master performance coach, and mom to millennials. Do you want deep, meaningful relationships to wake up every day with purpose and make money doing something you love? Well, you've landed in the right place. Every week, I will teach you how to get exactly what you want in life by strengthening your emotional intelligence. Using a combination of the Enneagram framework, live life coaching sessions, and real talk from yours truly, it's time to transform yourself into the ultimate leader of your life. Let's do this thing.

All right, you guys, I am bringing back some of your favorite episodes. You guys love when I do live typing on the air. And I gotta tell you, this one is going to be very interesting. It's going to be like a wild thoroughbred kind of running through because I'm not sure what's going to happen. I thought we had figured out what my dear friend Jake is, and I spent a lot of time with him. We've met in a mastermind, a high level mastermind, and he told me what he was and I could see that. I could see that. And definitely presents this way as a three. He thinks he's a three. That's what the tests have said and all the things. And him watching my reels and my memes and stuff, he's like, well, I sound very three. Like, and for those of you that know me and have been listening, I was mistyped originally as a three as well. And so I'm always intrigued by threes that, like, I can see the behaviors, but I want to know, like, what's driving that behavior. And typically high achievers tend to mistype more than others anyway, because we have learned how to compartmentalize definitely big parts of our lives in order to have the achievement, success, accolades, whatever that looks like. And I gotta say, at our last mastermind meetup, Jake and I had some really deep conversation. You know, this is the gift of me being 20 years his senior and having children not far from his age. And just, it was beautiful. It was one of the. It was my highlight of the weekend, for sure, was our conversation. And we were talking about it. And even though, like, the three resonates a lot, I felt there was a lot more substance to him. And if you're a three, don't take that. Like, I don't think you have substance. I do. But I could feel like his willingness to go way deeper than a 3. Typically will was there, so we'll see where this goes. But Jake Kelfer is my new friend that I think that you are all going to love. You're all going to be inspired by and want to be around. His energy, he is infectious and he does remind me. He's like a beautiful combination, honestly, of both my children. I think that's what I love most about him. He's got this free spirited, like commanding a room, you know they're there. Like my daughter. Like, seriously, you can't mistake when she's in a room. But like the heart, the drive, the viva shitness that my son does. Like, Jake cares deeply about the impression he makes on other people. When he does something, he does it all out, which is very three. Like. But I think there might be more to the story. So you guys are here with me on the journey to kind of see where this goes. This might be one of those times where the assessments are wrong, but my assessment that I use is pretty powerful. So we'll see where this goes. Jake Kelfer is a 29 year old powerhouse entrepreneur. He is passionate about helping people just like you. Not just create and have this dream of a book, but actually make that happen. And not just a book, but a best selling book. How many do you have now? Like three.

I have three, yeah.

Unfreaking believable. And I've read one of them. Like I have. The one that you gave us at the Mastermind is so good. Like I was looking at some of these names that he got to interview. If you guys haven't read the book the Third Door, have you read that by Alex Banyan? Kind of reminded me of that. I was like, holy, these are like big ass names that you interviewed. And that doesn't happen without some cojones. And so you're gonna hear me and Jake kind of break down and figure out what his enneagram type is. I think I know where we're going with this because I was asking him some questions ahead. We think he might be a three, but I think there might be a plot twist here. So buckle up. Hi, Jake, what's up?

I got to just say that that intro just got me excited. I felt like I was watching a preview to like a movie I've been waiting to see for a long time. Except like I'm the movie today and like I hope we give people the entertainment and some good takeaways. So this is gonna be fun.

This is. And these are hands down, these are people's favorite things because Mistyping, you know, in Enneagram land, the one flaw in the system, it's not like human design or astrology or any of the other stuff where it's like, yeah, the artificial intelligence with assessments and, you know, plugging your info in and gives you, boop. Here's your answer. The Enneagram doesn't work that way. There's this artificial intelligence kind of block where it can't get into the soul of who you are. It's great, it's got some accuracy, but 65 to 70% of the time, the online assessments are inaccurate. And what I have found, especially with high achievers, we do know how to compartmentalize. So I will love taking you through the process because those that are listening right now who think maybe, yeah, I've typed this, or I've taken the test four times, gotten four different answers. I know you say this is an amazing tool, but with all this inaccuracy, how the hell do I use it, right? So this is why these sessions are so powerful and these interviews are so great, because you can kind of hear the questioning. I ask, and I'm still kind of not convinced, which I'm pretty quick. But this tells you how complex humans are. But when we really are willing, which Jake is like, he's willing to go deep. And like our conversation on that mastermind, I mean, we got tears, both of us, in that conversation. It was powerful. And I'm not one to just, like, be super vulnerable all the time, and neither is Jake. So for both of us to have that moment, I knew he'd be a beautiful guest to not just bring to you and be entertained by, but to learn from. He is a beautiful soul. So, Jake, I'm excited. So let's go back. Where'd you grow up? California. SoCal, right?

Yeah, Southern California.

Still lives there, still loves it. He's one of, like, he loves California. So what was the family dynamic? It's. You got a siblings. I know you got mom and dad.

So family dynamic. Growing up, it's my mom, my dad. Heroes and role models. Love them. And my younger brother, he's three and a half years younger than me, and we had a great dynamic all around. The things that were, like, the most important to me were academics, athletics, and family. Like, it just always was that way. And I was really, really blessed to have two parents that had unconditional love, supported me throughout the journey, no matter what I wanted to do, as long as I just gave, you know, my best effort moving forward. And of course, I wanted to Always make them proud and always lead the way for. For my brother. So that was kind of the family dynamic as we. As we grew up, and we're all still really close to this day. We have weekly zoom dinners and. And all these amazing things that we do together.

What is the dynamic between you and your brother? Like, are you guys a lot alike, a lot different? I mean, you mentioned leading the way for him. So leadership is obviously something that's very important to you. And in our conversation, like, where your blocks have been are around, you know, outgrowing the people that you love. So what does that look like with your brother?

So my brother, we're similar, but also very different. He. I played basketball, baseball, and football growing up. He was a competitive cheerleader and gymnast. So completely different sports. But nonetheless, we were both competitive, and we. We had a strong desire to be great, and, like, we wanted to win, right? We wanted to do the things that would put us at the top of our game as we've evolved. I was a 12th grader. He was a freshman. That was a really awesome time in our. In our friendship and in our relationship, because I got to welcome him to high school. He got to see all of my friends, and he kind of got to be hanging out with, you know, the athletes, people that had been around for a while. And then when I went to college, I went to usc. Jonas said, I'm not going to usc. I don't want to be Jake's brother anymore. I want to do my own thing. And I begged him. I was like, joe, you have to interview or apply to usc. Even if you don't get in. Like, just. Or even if you do get in, you don't have to go. And so we ended up applying to all these places in usc. He ends up getting into usc, and so he goes to usc. And it was one of the coolest things ever for me to have my younger brother now get to be a freshman in college when I was a senior in college. And we've just continuously gotten closer and closer and closer. I'm much more. And he would agree with this. I'm much more outspoken, and I'm much more, like, verbally energetic, whereas he's much more creative and just so good at the way he operates. I'm much more of, like, a rambunctious type of energy, like, let's party. Let's have fun. Let's do these things. And he's much more of somebody who kind of thinks and. And goes through it, and he's so thoughtful and caring. And like you remember both of us when we enter a room for different reasons, and it's just a really cool dynamic. I love him dearly. I'm proud of everything he's done, and it's been a fun ride.

Why was it important for you for him to at least apply there? Why was it so important for you?

If I could have it with me, I think it would be so awesome because I kind of be there for him and support him. There have been different experiences in. In our lives where I've really wanted to be there for him, and maybe I haven't known how to or I haven't done it necessarily in the right way. Him coming to college and just. And everything. I always want to take care of him. You know, he's my little brother, and I love him dearly, and I always want to make sure that he's got the best thing figured out for himself. And, you know, I want to support him on that.

Can you touch on maybe one of those experiences that you referred to where maybe you didn't feel like you were there for him in the way that you wanted to be or that was best for him?

Yeah, of course. There was a time where the way we are motivated is different. And I'm motivated by very much taking a lot of action. If I have an idea, I'm going to go do it. Like, let's go. Like, this is the game, and for him, his thought process a little bit different. It's not as quick moving. He kind of likes to go with the flow a little bit more. And, you know, there's been different instances, but in general, there are times where he's trying to make a decision and I'm there to support him. But instead of listening and supporting him, I'm directing him and guiding him. And so I've really learned how to with him. And it's taken me a lot of time, and I'm not perfect at it. But now I understand that I need to be with him. I just need to listen. And when he's ready, he'll come to me for questions rather than me being proactive. I just need to be there for when he's ready. And then when he asks, I'm all in. But I give advice and nurture him when he wants it and when he's looking for it rather than just doing it, because I think it's what he needs.

Beautiful. I love that answer. With taking action, I am very much like, let's freaking go. Like, seriously. And you and I are wired. We're Very intense energy. Right? When you take action, can you take action with anything? Or are you the type of person that you take action only about things that you believe in or passionate about?

I will take action on anything. However, the action I take when I'm passionate about is something to watch out for. Like it's exciting because what comes from that is just anything, right? Like an example of this. I loved basketball. I still love basketball. I wanted to be a sports agent and I had just written my first book. I wasn't going to go backwards to go forward, meaning I didn't want to go to the mailroom. Once when I had a best selling book, like it didn't make sense in my mind. And I said, well, what can I do that would be like big time. And so I literally created a secondary NBA draft combine where I said, if I can't represent these guys, then why don't I have the agents become my customers? And at the end of the day my dream of helping these players turn their dreams into the realities of playing pro basketball, I could still achieve that. And so I said, let's go. And immediately. Within five months I went from writing a book and speaking to then all of a sudden having this event at 24 and helping 23 guys sign their first contract. In that first year, we've now helped over 70 guys do it. But action and alignment is just, we're going to get it done. Action on things that aren't that I'm not as passionate or excited about is still going to get done at a very high level. But there's going to be a little bit more of that. I feel like internal tension of really understanding the purpose, why.

So when it comes to winning, I love winning too. I am probably next to you, one of the most, like if I choose to compete, watch the fuck out. Yeah, watch the fuck out. Because I don't care how old I am, I will at least kill you trying to win. Right? I think you're kind of wired the same way now. In my wisdom of 50 years, there is a lot of things I choose to not compete in anymore. Before I was always like proving like I will be the most powerful in the room. Like for me it was about power and winning was just a byproduct of the power. Would you say that when you aren't passionate about it and you can still kind of like even at your 70% tends to probably win a lot. Do you care as much Sometimes?

I mean, I'll give an example here of make sure I understand the question. Is game nights okay? I love game nights. Okay. But game night have been one of those things where if I'm really excited, I really want to win. Like we're going to be a game night becomes competitive. There are times and places for it to be very competitive. There are also times that I've recognized that maybe it's okay to kind of just, you know what? Chill. I doesn't. I don't have to win that game for us to have a great night. And so I think that like, I don't know if that is. That's a good example of that question.

It's a great tea. You're teeing it up for the next one, which was beautiful. So with game night because same. I fucking love it. Would you say that you especially, you know, you're still young, but you really have a lot of self awareness for 29 tons, way more than I had. And when you're in the game night, is it the winning that you love or the intensity of experience that you love?

Oh, what a question. Is it the winningness or the intensity?

The intensity of the experience. So like even at game night, because I'll tell you, like, I don't care how much money I take from you when we're, when we're in game night because we bet when we.

Okay, okay.

Like, yeah, I got to have something on the line here. It's makes it more intense. Right. And so I don't care that I won necessarily, even though I do like win. It's the intensity of the moment. Like I'm the first person to win it all. Intense experience and give everybody their money back. But I got the win because I was, it was an intense experience and that makes me feel alive. Which do you prefer? Winning and being like, ha ha, ha ha, you suck or like that was fucking great, that intensity.

I don't like to rub it in their faces too much when I, when we play game nights and like catchphrases like the, the classic game here that, that like we're, we've. There's been fights, there's been, there's been arguments, friendships have been, you know, touched upon. I do love the intensity. I, I love the idea when everyone's riled up and we're like. And it's an intense game that like, that's fun for me. Like that brings the excitement up. But if I had to pick intensity or if I would rather win but it not be intense, I'll probably pick the intensity. Like, like I want it but, but like I want to win. So like I'll take like a 8 out of 10 intensity for a, for a win versus a 10 out of intensity and like a loss.

Okay, tell me this because I'm a. I played sports as well. Like I loved sports. Loved it. My college team, we were dominators. Like, seriously, we blew through our division and our conference. Like nobody's missed us. And I hated every second of it. Even though we won run ruled people. Like, I mean there was my highlighted game, the one that was talked about the most was me hitting home runs from both sides of the plate. Great. Like that's awesome. It is. It's a fucking great stat. But the asterisk is. And we blew them out like 40 something to one. Like so, you know, like for me to do that, it wasn't like I was hitting 90 mile an hour fastballs off Randy Johnson or anything. It was like softballs. Like anybody could do that, right? So I don't enjoy winning when it's not intense or competitive. Would you rather lose a nail biter, like really intense game, or do you just want to fucking win all of it?

I will take the game of competition and to rise to the level of play even if I lose, because I can, I can learn from that. I can, I can take things from that. I can get better so I can win. I don't really want to beat up on a group of seventh graders playing basketball, but if I could compete with someone at the college level still, and today that would bring me so much joy. If I lost 11, nine in a game of like one on one, like, that's so much more fun to me. Like if I go play pickup basketball, I'd rather be in the most competitive game and not know if I'm going to win than to be in a game where like I can just goof off and then like turn it on if I need to.

So when it comes to the competitiveness, because I think we're here, I think I got it. So like when it's competitive like that and you actually win or you have a nail biter like that and you win, do you find that you enjoy the experience of the nail biter because you knew you could grew stronger from that experience or do you like just winning because then everybody thinks you're the best?

I probably say the growth. Like I don't really care about necessarily being the best. I care about did we achieve like the result, which is having a good time competing and getting better in the.

Process and stronger and stronger, whether it's individually or as A team? Yeah.

Individually or as a team, Like. Like, when we play, it's like, if I have someone that's on my team that's not as good, like, I want to bring them up. If I'm not the best player, I don't really care. I'll play my role because I want to be the rock for the squad, you know, so in high school, we had one of the best players in the country. I was his point guard. I took care of him to set him up for success. Classmates, I'll do whatever I can to help people get to the top. Like, I see competition as amazing, but I see opportunity for, like, us as like a whole even greater, which is, like, why I'm so, like, passionate about the work that I do and lifting others up in the process of me achieving everything I've ever desired.

You know, one of the things that before I hit record, we were talking about, and it's something that we have very much in common, is we both played center field on our teams. You know, I played softball, he played baseball. We were both leadoff hitters as well, both lefties. So, you know, granted, we are limited to the positions we can play, which is bullshit, but it is. It's what it is. But, you know, playing center field isn't the flashy, like, shortstop role or even the pitcher. Like, I could pitch too, but, you know, my strengths. Your strengths were probably utilizing that leadership in the outfield, which is like, people think you suck if you're out there, but it's actually games are won and lost in the outfield. And even being a leadoff hitter, you're setting up, you know, that four hole to get the grand salami to look like the hero of the game. You got the Barry Bonds and the Frank Thomases and all the other ones that are, you know, amazing today. They can't be the heroes without the setup guys like you and I. And that is something that is to be said in what your enneagram type is, too. I mean, you wouldn't think it is, but there's a theme here. One of the things that you said earlier as well, that, you know, between you and your brother and me and my daughter can enter a room together and you'll know we're there for different reasons. Why do you think when you enter a room, or what do you hope is the perception of when you walk into them? Why they know you're there?

Is it, why do they know I'm there? Or what do I want them to see? Because I think there's Two different. Two different ways to answer that for me.

Well, I would hope they would be the same thing.

When I walk into room, I feel, and this is what I've been told is that the energy I bring into a room is infectious and contagious. When I walk up to a stage, people just feel the excitement and the aura it elevates. It just. It just does. And what I want people to do is when. When I walk into a room is. Is, yeah, I want them to notice that I'm there. I don't want to be in the background, but I want them to notice I'm there. Not in a way to belittle them in a room or. Or to put people down and say, look at me, but rather to say, look at what we can be. And when I go into a room, whether it's for a speech, whether it's for a team meeting, whether it's a staff meeting, whatever it is, it's like, okay, we're going to work hard, but we're going to also play hard. And so that energy is just going to change the dynamic of everyone that we're around and just. And just bring us up to the next level.

Has there ever been a room that you walk into or a situation that you walk into that you're okay kind of just sitting back and observing rather than kind of participating in? Or are you generally always going to participate?

There are definitely times that make more sense when I'm not at the front and commanding and leading. And an example of that is if I'm in a group of people and say, politics. I'm not incredibly knowledgeable about politics. Politics don't really. Like, I don't love the news. Like, it doesn't bring me much joy. But if we're in a conversation in a group around politics, I have no need or no desire to try to insert my limited opinion on the group. What I would much rather do is to sit there, to ask questions, to bring their knowledge out, and then be able to formulate my opinion and thoughts from there so that then I can make my decision on how I want to move forward next. But that's. That's kind of like, do I have the need in every room to always be at the forefront? No, I think sometimes that can be obnoxious. But I do have a need to always make sure that I do commit to my role, whether it is as the leader. And I think great leaders can be great followers. Right. And great listeners. And this is a lesson that my mom's instilled in me is that we need to validate, validate, validate. Coming from her social work background and her ability as a professor at usc, like, understanding that we need to listen with the intent to understand, not to reply. To validate and to know where you can be and how you can help and add value, that's a huge strength. And that's how I approach when I enter groups and rooms and teams and conversations is what can I do to make the experience better?

So we did something really cool when we were in our mastermind and we were in different teams for this. One of the first days was like this team building, bonding experience where we went on a scavenger hunt all through Scottsdale, Arizona. I'm super competitive. And I was basically declaring, we're going to fucking win this. You guys. Just. Just so you know, we're going to win. We got the best team. And then we got into the team dynamics and I could see that, okay, we all are strong leaders. We. I mean, our team was compiled of an eight, two threes, two twos, and I think maybe a six, if I'm not mistaken. So I was like, okay, there's a lot of strong energy here. And it was cool because we could kind of all see that we're all very strong. But definitely we each were able to let the other lead in certain things that were their strengths. Like, there were certain things that were definitely my strengths. There was like certain things that the other people and it really. And we thought we lost the damn thing. We're like, we don't know what the fuck we're doing. We just. Cause we piecemealed it together. There wasn't like a one person that really stood out, like, leading the charge, but we were all kind of just leading the charge in our strengths. Turns out we ended up winning. Right? And it was mind blowing, but it was because we kind of. Nobody really fought to be like, hey, look at me. Hey, look at me. Even with two threes in the thing, which that sets the tone of like, it's important who you surround yourself with. Right. I'm curious what that experience was like for you. What was your. Like when you're in your team of five or six, what was your role? And did that shift throughout the day? Because I'm curious how that went. And what place did you guys come.

In that was such a fun day. A little frustrated with our result, but it was. It was a great day.

And what team color were you?

Red. We were red.

You're with Chris. You were with.

Yes. Yeah.

So ultra competitive. Got it.

Yeah. Yeah. This was a. We were a competitive team. We had. We had a powerhouse, too. I mean, we had Emma, Jim, Lizzie, Aisha. Like.

Oh, yeah.

Like, we had a squad. And I would say that, you know, my role and people even alluded to it is, like, during that time, like, there were times where I made sure that, like, I was heard and that we were. We were executing, especially in the escape room, because my dad had an escape room business. And so I had knowledge and experience that was relevant, and, like, it was necessary to share that information for us to be better. We ended up getting out with 11 minutes left. That was a very great use of that. But then there were other challenges throughout that day where, you know, there were other people who are better suited to describe or lead or, you know, there was an experience where I was leading one of our teammates through, like, this blindfold, and he had to listen to my voice to get to these things without stepping on these other, like, blocks. And I was doing it a little bit, and we were doing good, but we weren't moving at a fast pace. And one of our other teammates had led another person exponentially faster. I immediately said to this person, I said, hey, you just crushed that. Like, if you have a strategy that, you know, works, go ahead, take over where I'm at, because we're moving slow, and time was of the essence. So she stepped in, and she just crushed it. That brought me great joy. And there were other instances like that, and, you know, there were definitely some, like, all right, let's go. But there was also that, like, make sure I can support you cheery on as. As a.

As a whole, this is why I knew, like, in our conversation, that real deep one, I knew that you probably weren't a three. I don't think you're a three.

Interesting. Yeah, I've never. I mean, I've taken one test. I never even heard of the Enneagram until, like, a year and a half ago, two years ago. So, like, this stuff's so great to me, so I love it. I'm excited for what's the suspense? I'm excited for the suspense.

And, like, knowing what team you were on and knowing those people like the back of my hand. And, you know, I know two of them for sure were threes, Aisha and Chris. And I know, like, their desire to win, they don't always do what you did and take a backseat and say, you know what? You're better at this. A 3 doesn't easily do that, not at all. Because they will win at all costs and bulldoze. And that's where a breakdown in leadership can happen sometimes. Right. Like you got out of the escape room, but then you guys came in last place.

Yeah, well, we don't need to go too deep into that last place stuff. No, no, but I understand. I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. I like that you're riling me up a little bit.

Sometimes that desire to just be on top and win brings down. In the short game, I know you're all about long game versus short game. But sometimes in the short game when we have this desire to win, we miss the miracles that can happen in playing a long game. At first in our team it was like, fuck yeah, we're going to win. And it was very short game minded until we got in that escape room and we realized, oh shit, like, this is not going to be easy. And because we were all like in that energy where it's like, okay, where's our strengths here and let's utilize all of them. And it wasn't like this tug of war to try and say, hey, I have strength here. We kind of just naturally knew A3 would have never done what you did and said, you're better at this. Come take over.

Yeah. I mean, it wasn't necessarily easy for me to want it to give that up, but it was. And there were times where I felt it was better and there are times where still like, I don't, I wouldn't say like that's something I'm perfect at either. Right. Like, I don't make it seem like I always give it away. Right. But like, I definitely think that that's. As I've evolved for me and my, my person and the person I've becoming, I definitely want to be that and do that. Because at the end of the day, like I ask myself, like, why do I do everything that I do, right? And it's. And it's for the people that I care most about and it's for the experiences that I get to create and the memories that I get to have. Because you know, 50, 60 years from now when I'm sitting down, barely can walk, right. I'm going to be like, I'm glad I did that, much more than what if I did that? And I'm going to be able to say like, I lived a full life, I had great experiences, great memories. And so, you know, you mentioned short term, long game, like long term, do.

You only do things that, you know, you'll Crush.

I'd say sometimes I feel like that's much easier for me for sure, is to do things that I'm naturally good at, which is probably why, like, I don't play golf that much, you know, because I'm, I'm not good at golf. And that frustrates the heck out of me. And I don't want to break it all in my clubs, but I also challenge myself to put myself in those situations. So I literally did an entire year of what I called my 12 month journey. And every single month I would do an activity that scared me. It challenged me or was something that I always wanted to do but claimed I never had time to do it. And so one of those activities, for example, was like taking Krav Maga, which is Israeli self defense classes. One of the months was hip hop dancing. My friend, she's, she's a dancer and so we would do hip hop classes and then we did like a final, like ceremony thing. You know, there were a lot of different things and those two were things that were like, oh, that would be fun. But like, do I really want to embarrass myself and show everyone that I'm like, just terrible at these things? And then if I do it, am I going to get way too into it and then just become like an obsessed, Like, I need to win this thing. So that experience was, was life changing. Being able to do all those different things and try them and seeing what worked and what didn't, what I liked, what I disliked and what it led to for me, because it definitely, you know, kind of showed me get myself out of this comfort zone. Life's more fun when you, like you said, leave space. And Chris said this at our mastermind is you got to leave space for miracles. And when you kind of allow yourself that permission to try something new or do something that you, you don't think you're going to be good at, well, maybe something else happens that isn't even related to that. Maybe there's a new person, maybe there's a memory, maybe there's a conversation that leads to something that you are good at. And so, yeah, I love it.

You're not a three. You look like a three, but you're not a three. I look like a three, but I'm not a three either. You, my love, are a eight. You're an eight. An eight, which is what I am. And you specifically are the same kind of eight that I am. So there's three different kinds of each. Enneagram type. So with the nine Enneagram types, there's three subtypes, which is like our instinctual variant, right? Like this is where nature and nurture collide and make us who we are. Because you were born this way way, you were wired this way. Then we're dropped into environments, families, experiences, things like that that kind of like solidify at least how we express it to the world and where our natural instincts go. Instincts are reactions to life, right? So we either have self preservation, which is like when life happens, it's like, what's going to happen to me? And you kind of go into safety, security, resources. That's not you. That's not you. That's probably your least go to. You think about other people almost always before yourself. Then we have the one on one which is like, what's going to happen to us? Like when things happen, good or bad, it's like, oh my gosh, like, are we going to enjoy all this together? Or oh my gosh, how's this going to affect the people I care about? Like your inner, inner circle, right? And intensity of experience is what this one's all about. And this is where you and I fall. We are both in the one on one category. And then there's social, which you can do and I can do. We can command a room. We can look out for the greatest good of the community and the group. But we're not necessarily going to stand on a picket line for something that we don't believe in. Right. The more social types will do that because they're all about what's for the greatest good of all. You and I are about what's best for our inner circle and the people that we really build legacy with, whether it's through business or our lineage or family. And you and I are the same Enneagram type. So the 1 on 1 8, which is what you and I are, are the most rebellious on the Enneagram. We are the most emotional, intense on the Enneagram, and also some of the most misunderstood. Our like key is possession. And I know that sounds kind of weird. We do kind of have an antisocial tendency from time to time. Like, you know, we are social. Most people wouldn't think I'm an introvert at all, but I am. But when I do choose to show up, when I do choose to compete, you will know I'm there. And you're the same way, right? Like I said, we're rebellious, but we are very emotional. So like, the stereotypes of the eight are just like domineering, aggressive, even Bully, like, from time to time. And I've got to say, in my unhealthier days, I definitely. That was more of the thing where we are able to show a vulnerable side. Not always in real time, though. Like, we can be great storytellers. That's why you're a great writer and you have no problem sharing your story. But I would guess, like, in the middle of conflict or crisis, and even the conversation you and I had around the money and the blocks, and even though you're very successful, especially at your age and in general, like, you're very successful, there's a block for you that is specifically around the very inner circle that mean the world to you. And same and same. So I love that. So as an eight, our gifts and you have all of these. We are competitive, but the things we're passionate about, if we're not passionate about, you know, sometimes we will win just because we can. And we want to remind everybody that, like, if we choose to do anything, we will crush you. But you know what? We're not choosing to. And the older you get, the less you'll be like, eh, this is not mine to fight. I'm gonna let them all win. But if I won, if I wanted to win, I would. Right? So our motivational need. This is where, you know, I was driving at. Like, what is the root of your significance? It's being the rock. You find significance in being a rock. Not being significant, not being the best. Same. My whole life, I've been a rock, and that is my driver. Cause that's where strength is. Being a rock is like the strongest thing you can be. Winning isn't necessarily strong. I mean, I know you're an LA guy. Kobe, the strongest basketball player, the second strongest basketball player of all time. I mean, how human? He dies in an accident. Like, even the very best can die. But being the rock, there's something to like that that pillar of strength that you love being. And so the motivational need for the eight is to be strong and avoid showing the vulnerability. And that's why we tend to win a lot, is because the win aren't put in vulnerable situations. People won't try to attack us or be traced because they're more afraid of us. So I think that your competitiveness to win comes from more of that than, hey, look at me. I'm the star of the show. If it serves the whole team, you'll do it Same. We value having a sense of control and being direct and impactful. As eights, we love challenges. Like, we Eat intensity for breakfast. We're not afraid of conflict. We love hard conversations because it makes us feel alive, right? Like, we love intensity of experience, period, end of story. And if we win, even better. But if we got a hell of an experience out of it, then even better. When we're healthy, we're experienced as strong, deeply caring and approachable. People do feel safe with us because they know if shit goes sideways, you call an 8, period. If you need somebody to have your back, you call an 8. A 3 doesn't always have people's back, especially if it slows them down. And I'm not knocking threes, their gifts are different than ours. But a three, if you're going to slow down their goal setting or goal achieving, they may not have your back. An 8 will always have your back. Because we love this, we love the challenge. I mean, we're called the active challenger, the protective challenger for a reason. We also can offer the gift of innocence because we're always out to protect the vulnerable. Since it's our biggest fear is being put in a vulnerable situation. A lot of times we will actively seek out people to protect. We always, always take on the underdog and protect them. That's why I love animals as well. Like, I'm a very animal person, big animal person, because they're very vulnerable. And small children, I will, like, protect little kids, like, no matter what. Like, don't. Now, here's the deal. When we're not so healthy or we feel like we're going to be betrayed or violated, like, our walls come up and one of two things happen. We can either be domineering and aggressive and very intense as a way to kind of flex, or we can completely abandon and withdraw energetically. We may not have a conversation about it, but it's like, now you see me, now you don't. And our energy doesn't lie. Your energy doesn't lie. And when you walk in a room, it's not because you're the best, but it's because you're the strongest, one of the strongest in the room energetically. And you have that ability. And so people do feel that, which is great. At my worst, I got off on that. My ego is like, they all know that I could kill everybody here. And I like it. And it kept me safe behind walls. And I'm sure there has been times in your life that felt very protective. But like, we've talked about those walls, yes, they will protect us, but they will also keep out the miracles and the beautiful blessings. And so, like dating and you know, you and I talked about that and making more money and what that means, like if we make more money, we're going to leave people behind and not everybody will receive that as positive. Right. Which is a similar thing that I have with you. It's like, how can I actually protect them if they think I'm better than them? And so sometimes we can stay at a level that we shouldn't be in order to protect those that we love. Just like your brother. That's why you wanted your brother to come to usc, because if he's there, you could be there for him. It wasn't because you wanted two Trojans in the house necessarily, even though that's cool too. It was more so that you could be there for him.

Yeah.

Which is our gift. So we're assertive, decisive, protective, independent, influential. You are all those things. And those very things that are your superpowers are also your kryptonite. Right. That over assertive energy is like, we don't think things through all the time and we can leave a lot of wreckage and because of the intensity in which we move, we can leave a lot of destruction if we're not careful. That decisiveness can have us making decisions too soon and we make short term, short game decisions when we need to think a little bit more out for the long game. Right. As you age, I can already see you doing that. The wisdom is coming with like, hey, I got to think things through a little bit more than just say, let's fucking go, Right? That protective energy, you know, maybe your brother needed to go fly his wings somewhere else. Right. Maybe he didn't. Maybe there's been other areas, like our need to protect, you know, that's where we have to discern between ego versus, like, what's for the greatest good of this person too. Because just because we are born to fight, we are, we are born to challenge things, doesn't mean it's always our fight to have and knowing and discerning when it's okay to watch people fall on their face because that's how they learn. But them knowing without question, I will be here to pick you up, but you are going to fall on your face. Right? So the thing is, if we just operate in that 8 energy, it's kind of like knowing the tools to use. Like having the right tool for the job is the most important thing and knowing when to use it is even more important. Right. So if we just operate in this 8 energy, although we get shit done, like I said, we can leave a Lot of destruction in our path and kind of knowing like I'm always, always going to have this intensity and this always strong motivational need to have intensity and experience and flex. Now we've got other people, places and things involved here, right? You're a leadership, you know, developer in the work that you do. Like, people that come to write books come in all shapes, sizes and emotions. And if you just operate in this intense energy, you're going to lose people, right? And their miracles won't happen and you'll leave money on the table, which neither is fun, right? So having these things called wings on the Enneagram are really helpful. So you have a seven and a nine. So on the Enneagram there's a number on either side of you and it's kind of like tools in the tool belt. Like we all know how to use the screwdriver, which is your eightness. You don't need a YouTube tutorial. You don't need a guide to show you how to use that. You know how to be eight. But sometimes you need a chainsaw and sometimes you need a power drill. But if you don't know how and when to use those, you can do some damage. So the one side of you which I see you use a lot, you have this strong 7 energy. It's that enthusiastic visionary, you bleed that. You use that one a lot, right? Like that's like anything's possible. Like the, the combine that you built like that is seven visionary. Like let's create something that nobody says is possible. And then the intensity and the flex, that is in the 80s. Yeah, make shit happen. Now on the other side of you is the nine, which is the adaptive peacemaker, which doesn't necessarily feel very appealing to somebody like you and me. It's like, no, I want to stir shit up, right? But that adaptive peacemaker is the divine spirit. Also like if they're, if Jesus or the universe or whatever you believe in is the highest of powers, I believe that energy and spirit is a nine. And that is kind of like looking out for like what's the way that we can create harmony in that it's the greatest good for all involved. We're all feel included, we're all feel non judged. And so sometimes that 8 energy just wants to bulldoze through life and just make things happen. And that 7 doesn't always help some things because they're like, yeah, anything's possible. But if you don't kind of lean into that nine and saying, okay, but what's this ability to Challenge directly, but care deeply at the same time. And finding that sweet spot where we're gonna go, it's gonna be intense. But how can we either articulate this, verbalize this, communicate this in a way where everybody feels like they can be on board with the mission, the vision, and feel safe, certain and significant in it? That is the gift. When a nine can do that. Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King, even Donald Trump, think what you want about him. They both made big, big moves and created big, huge movements in the world, right? Depending on whatever you believe. Like, you can't deny that from all three of those people. So we're in good company as far as that goes. Now, there's one other aspect of this. We both have these numbers that we go to. Like, when our domineering, aggressive ways don't work anymore, we kind of look like something completely different. And that's our stress number. And for you and I, our stress number is the number five, which is what our friend Lizzie is the quiet specialist, the investigator. Right. Jim, our buddy Jim as well, falls into this category. They're very analytical. They use thoughts. You and I use instinct. We operate very instinctually where they have to think things through and analyze it up here. Sometimes when we feel, especially aids, feel like betrayal, violation, vulnerability, or maybe I'm not the strongest in the room, if I'm going to try things that are scary for me and show that I don't know what I'm doing. Sometimes we go into this investigator mode to build a case, right? Sometimes we can use this in a beautiful way. Even though it's our stress number, we can go to build a case for why, like you did the 12 months of you. What a beautiful example of building a case where, yeah, this is risky, this is scary for all the reasons you said, but building the case of why this is beautiful. That was a beautiful moment in using the 5. But quite often an 8 will go to that 5 cave to build a case either against the people. Because if I go to the five cave and I'm building a case against you, you will lose and I will crush you. And I'm sure you can do the same thing or even worse. We can build a case against ourself. Like you have around the money and I have around the money. You know, ours are different but similar. That's where we go into that five cave and where we will sabotage or play small. And it's so subconscious and subtle sometimes. And sometimes it's very loud when we build that case. So being able to use that five Cave as something beautiful will be really good. But catching when we're there and. And having compassion for ourselves, like, wow, I feel really vulnerable right now. Like, when I'm going to that five cave, I'm like, wow, okay, this is scary for me. I'm letting people see parts of my heart I've never let people see. Right. Or I'm trying something in the business land that I've never done before and blazing my own trail. Even though we like doing that, still really vulnerable on the outside to other people, we don't look like it's vulnerable. So allowing ourselves to show more of that. Which will take you to your growth number, which ironically was your second highest on your Enneagram assessment, which is the two. The considerate helper. And I'm guessing your mom probably falls into that. She probably falls in that area. I find a lot of social workers end up in the. They're the two on the Enneagram. My son is a two. You remind, like I said, you're a perfect combination of like my son and my daughter, who she's a seven, he's a two. But when an eight is in growth and has done a lot of work and utilizes the gift of the wings, the seven and a nine, we can really embody the two, which is like compassion, empathy, grace. We can slow our roll a little bit. We can do lower our voices. Because you talk very loud like I do, and very fast. So do I. Yep. But when you really are in your sweet spot, you're able to kind of get quiet like this, and you're even more powerful when you do. Mother Teresa was mistyped a lot of times. Most people think she's a 2 because she is so compassionate and helpful, but she doesn't. Like, that's her growth number. But she's an eight like you cross Mother Teresa. She's gonna call it out. She's going to call it out. Right. So that she's a beautiful example of somebody in their growth number all the time. And I'm confident that as you really plant your flag in this space and really work through the things about, like the money blocks, you will be able to easily flow into this and know that. And same for me, like, the more that I allow myself to have more wealth, actually, the more I can help, especially the people that I care about. And so that's why you are a one on one eight, not a three. What do you think about all that? How do you feel about it?

It's interesting because I'm enlightened in some Ways, because I have limited knowledge coming in, which was part of the most exciting thing about doing this. Now I have a lot of knowledge, and, I mean, I'm sure I could put myself in any box that you want to hear at the time of this. But a lot of that made a lot of sense to me. You know, I love the analytical side of the way I operate. Like, I love getting into that. And even though that is sometimes what caused me to slow. Right. Because I want to go the two. The compassionate helper. Like, I love help. Like, you know, obviously it's not just, do you like helping? But I have those tendencies. Right. And, you know, the seven. The, you know, I know Bridget's a seven. I think, you know, Keisha's a seven. Like, these are people that, you know, are just like, very great bundles of energy that are going to make you feel special. And, like, that's the side I tap into the most, you know, nine, definitely. I use it a little less, but I can be great there as well. So, like, it is really cool to kind of hear the differences and kind of the breakdown. And, you know, I feel like. And we started this. You got in my soul. You got.

And it feels good, you know, because, you know, the more information we have, the better we can make any decisions that we want moving forward. And so I feel very grateful that you've been able to share your expertise and use me as a case study. Right. Like, whatever. Like, I feel very grateful for that because I feel like I've been able to grow from our conversations. You know, we did have great conversations in our first week of really knowing each other in person, our second day of knowing each other in person. You know, I had tears. I never have tears. And those things mean a lot to me. So to do this and really understand that that means a lot. And I think that it can be really valuable in a lot of things as I understand myself, become even more self aware and, you know, figure out how to utilize these strengths and these areas to move forward.

Yeah. This is the beautiful part about doing what I do is like, I saw the three behaviors, but the more I got to know you, I'm like, I don't think so. I don't think so. And the more you felt familiar to me. So, like, it's no secret to me or surprise to me that we not only are the same type, but the same subtype as well. And why we were able to have that deep of a conversation that fast when we did have the container to have that. Right. Because otherwise we probably might not have sought each other out throughout because the two of us, our energies together, it's very hard to have that kind of energy together at the same time without there being some kind of power struggle, so to speak, even without words being said. But I loved that we were able to have that because the one on one eights are the most passionate as well. Like, we don't do shit just for the sake of doing it. But when we are passionate about it, like, we are unstoppable. And especially when we can use the other parts of the framework of our Enneagram type and really do it for all the right reasons and all the right ways that feel really good, it will be able to sustain that energy to fight the real fights that are for us down the road. And because I think a lot of our life, we love to fight just to fight because it made us feel alive. But then, God forbid, and I've had this happen, this is what happens when you get a little bit older, is if you kind of run on that intensity all the time, you're gonna burn yourself out no matter how strong you are, that when a real fight comes along, that you have to be completely at your best to fight. You may not be able to, whether it's your own health or crisis in a family or financial crisis. I had all three happen. I was like, oh, fuck. I'm like, toast. I got nothing left in the tank. And so, really utilizing the framework of your Enneagram type, you will always be the most intense person in probably every room you're in, unless I'm there with you. But knowing how to conserve that intensity for the things that really matter for you, that's why you are so great at what you do. And so I want you to tell the people, like, he's infectious, he's intense, and he makes shit happen. And he's made it a passion now in helping those of you that want to write a book, not just write a book and make it happen, but, like, have it become a bestseller. So tell the people what you do and how you can serve them. And, you know, if you've got a challenger in your corner, you know they have your back, and we'll make you see it through. So tell them how it's done.

Yeah, so my big focus, you know, right now is really focused on helping entrepreneurs, coaches, thought leaders write and launch bestselling nonfiction books. And not only that, but we show you how to do it while having fun and do it quicker than you ever thought was possible. So if you want to learn more about that, you can go to my Instagram. Akelfer. We have a free training where you can learn how to write and launch a bestselling book in one hour a day. But our whole thing here is we turn dreams into realities, Whether that's NBA players going to the league or it's a person who wants to write their book, and they've always been waiting to do it. That's what we do. We turn dreams into reality. And if you want to write a book, we'll make that happen.

Oh, my God, I love you so much. You're like a little brother to me already, and I love it. And I am grateful that you are an enneagram8, because I can actually help you in ways that maybe other people might not quite understand, and this will be helpful for you. Like I said, it's just a tool, but knowing how to use the tool will be amazing. You are a beautiful, beautiful soul. I am honored to know you, to walk alongside you in this journey and my listeners and believe in the people that I bring. I don't just bring anybody on. And, you know, you guys, I know there's many of you that have a book in you, and I could not recommend Jake more, and not just because he's in my mastermind. You know, I don't blow smoke. Like, seriously, I have vetted him. I believe in him. And there's nobody else I'd want in your corner if. If writing a book is on your, like, dream board. Like, time to make shit happen. An 8 will make you make it happen. So if you're tired of saying you're gonna do it, then get some eights in your corner. Between me and Jake, we. You bring that dream to life. And, Jake, I hope that you continue to bring your own dreams to life, because you deserve them. You deserve everything that you desire. All right, you guys, as always, I want to help you become the ultimate leader in your life through, you know, self awareness, emotional intelligence, and anything I've learned along the way in my 50 years. You guys tag me on Instagram. Tracyamalley. If you love this, share this with your people. Hit up jake@jakekelfer right on Instagram. He's a great Instagram follow for sure. Very energetic and entertaining and wise, wise, wise, wise. You guys, I love you. I appreciate you, and we will talk to you soon. Thanks again, Jake.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the Leadership Formula podcast. Please help us spread the word about this show by sharing it with a friend and leaving a written apple podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me directly on Instagram at traceeomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@traceeomalley.com I'm excited to lead you into the next level of your life.