EP281: What it's like to be an Enneagram Five - Heart, Mind, and Soul with Denise Jones - The Investigator/Specialist

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Welcome to the Leadership Formula Podcast, where you will learn the secret sauce behind achieving massive success. I'm your host, Tracy o', Malley, multimillion dollar entrepreneur, your Enneagram expert, master performance coach, and mom to millennials. Do you want deep, meaningful relationships? To wake up every day with purpose and make money doing something you love? Well, you've landed in the right place. Every week, I will teach you how to get exactly what you want in life by strengthening your emotional intelligence. Using a combination of the Enneagram framework, live life coaching sessions, and real talk from yours truly. It's time to transform yourself into the ultimate leader of your life.

Let's do this thing.

Hey. Hey. Welcome back to another episode of the Leadership Formula Podcast. And we are continuing the series on getting into the heart, the mind, the soul of each Enneagram type. And this week, you all is my favorite Enneagram type. If you've been a listener for any length of time, you know I have a strong affection for the Enneagram 5, which my daughter, who's an Enneagram 7, she calls them boring sometimes, but she's learned to love them because that's her growth number. So she's singing a different tune these days. But what I love so much about the enneagram 5, you know, first of all, they're connected to the 8, so there is that kind of understanding we have of each other. But I love that they don't necessarily say a lot, but when they do, you know, it's going to be straight fire. There's. There's a swagger and a confidence when they do use their voices, because they aren't necessarily somebody that needs to be the center of attention or needs to have all the control, but they do like to be knowledgeable. They do like to be prepared. They like to know that they are equipped and capable. So when they do use their voice, you know, you're going to get some really good stuff. And ironically, gosh, it was maybe about a year ago. Was it about a year ago that you connected with me? She came to me as a certified Enneagram coach. Quite honestly, I was like, oh, shit. Okay, okay. I'm gonna have to be on my toes, but I think you had been listening to my podcast or something, and you just liked the way that it wasn't so informational but integral. Is that the right word?

Yes.

Is that the right word? See, I ask Enneagram Fives their advice on most everything. Just a little, little advice to y'.

All.

Find an enneagram5 that specializes in something and there will be nobody better to guide you. And we'll get into what she does so that you guys can go find her. But the Enneagram 5 is the most introverted. On the Enneagram, they're called the quiet specialist, sometimes known as the investigator. They're motivated by the need to know and understand and they value making sense of the world around them. So as a result, they're super objective, they're super knowledgeable. But one of their superpowers is their. Their gift of the non attachment. The emotional non attachment. You guys have heard me say that can also be your kryptonite if the come from is not in alignment from, you know, the most soul giving place. But their gift of not being attached emotionally to things. And they can be that voice of reason in so much, especially when things get heated or intense or emotional. That's why they're beautiful. Complement to an 8, which my friend Denise Jones, she is an enneagram 5. She is a self preservation enneagram 5, which brings a whole different dynamic. We'll even talk about what that means. She's married to an enneagram 8, which keeps it spicy. But we're going to dive in with her on all the things it is to be an enneagram5. So for those of you that aren't one, I think these are the best episodes for you to listen to are the types that aren't you. Because. Because chances are you're either in a relationship with one of some sort, you have to lead one, you love one, maybe you're irritated by one and need some more compassion and understanding for what really makes them tick. So, Denise, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Tracy. You have no idea what it means for me to be on your podcast.

Oh.

So yes, I became an Enneagram coach about two years ago. So I've listened to a ton of podcasts on the Enneagram and I would always hear that the five is the hardest to have come on a podcast because we keep to ourselves quite a bit and we're always thinking of just being the right person for the job, you know, like having. Yeah. And so like to me, it's crazy that I'm here because then here I am. Like I heard that and I thought it was hilarious and now here I am. So thank you so much for the opportunity.

Oh my gosh. You know, I've told you and you know I don't bullshit like fives. I work with so many fives because, you know, you guys really do take this time to observe and gather your resources. So I know by the time a 5 actually reaches out to me, they've probably already researched me, watched a bunch of my crap, listened to me, they vetted me, and they've already made their decision that they're going to work with me. So when I find I have an enneagram 5, I'm like, so, you ready to do this? They're like, pretty much like, how. How long have you been watching me? And there's always. They always.

Yeah.

Yes.

I actually, I went to a forum, you know, with Enneagram coaches, and I asked, who do you guys recommend to share the enneagram to? My 8 husband. He needs to hear this from an 8. So I started.

Is that how you found me?

That's how I found you. And so I started listening to you, and what I thought was I was coming to you in order to learn how to communicate for my husband. You actually spoke to the very healthy parts of me, and there were parts of me that I knew that I needed to work on. And after listening to you, I just knew that you were the right person to help me navigate through some of those things in business and personally.

Yeah, it's interesting because what I love about Enneagram fives is also the thing that terrifies me the most about an enneagram 5. So we can even start with the dynamic of you and your husband, who is an intense 8. And your gift of being non attached is really good because you don't get really rattled by us so much. But when you do go to your dark side, it can feel like abandonment is coming. And for an enneagram 8, that betrayal, you know, then there's this war of wills, so to speak. Right. So when it comes to dealing with your 8 husband, what is the best part about the 5, 8 dynamic, and what is the hardest part about the 58 dynamic?

Let's see. So with my husband, we're also in business together, so that that just adds to the topic. Right? But so as a Nate, my husband is a big picture thinker and a doer, and he will throw out ideas left and right and wants to get things done immediately, not thinking of consequences or things that could go wrong. As a five, like you said, I come in like I'm more objective and I look at the process of things and I do think ahead. But think ahead of what could be the outcome of this and is this a better. A better direction to take or even just organizing his thoughts or organizing his ideas and kind of like putting A timeline to them. That's what makes us great together in our 5 and 8 dynamic. At the same time, because he's such a doer and I'm quote, unquote, doing repressed as a five, and I'm more of a thinker, I can get stuck in the thinking, and it has gotten to a point where it's a bit frustrating for him. But we still compliment each other, though, because you can get stuck in the thinking too much that then you don't do. And then you can be doing, doing, doing all the time, where you don't bring, like, structure or logical thinking into it. So at the end of the day, we've been married for, you know, just over a year, and we're learning. It's a learning process for us, but we definitely know that we complement each other.

So one of the things that you guys love doing together, your adventure, people and love to go out in the middle of nowhere and do all sorts of things, which both fives and eights really love, we can do what we do, but then we really need to fill back up, and I love that you two do that together. What is the biggest challenge as a five that you have interpersonally, would you say? Not with your husband, but out in the world.

Out in the world, there are people who think that I'm not engaged or that I'm not fully present because I am considered the quiet one, the introvert. And so it can come off as me being indifferent sometimes or that I'm too distant. I've definitely gotten that.

One of the things that Enneagram Fives can slip into this pattern of and sometimes get a bad rap for is being a little intellectually arrogant. And just like the 8 can be a little arrogant, too, in a different way. Where do you find yourself being judgmental, even if you're quiet about it? Because I don't have my energy, doesn't have a poker face. And when I have deemed you weak, you know, because that's the eighth thing we are like, either you're weak or you're strong. And for a five, it's either you're, you know, equipped and capable or you're not. And there's not a lot of gray area for you. Do you find when you have judged somebody is not equipped and capable that, like, the walls come up for you?

Because I'm more aware of who I am, you know, within the Enneagram framework, I can work with that a little bit more than prior to. To the Enneagram. So I'll give You some examples as a five. There's always been things that I get into, right. That I've gotten into over the years. So whether it's like health and fitness or, you know, like a specific diet or I really start, like, really digging into maybe like some health issue or some disease more so, because my. And the reason I'm saying this is that, you know, my dad was in a very bad car accident and he has, you know, just health issues, you know, over the years because of that. And so I used to learn, learn, learn, and then come to him and say, like, dad, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. And in a sense, I was judging him because he wasn't taking care of himself, you know, according to me or my knowledge or what I knew. Right. Knowing now that I. That I do that, I realize that I can come off a bit too strong. And not just at that example, but with anything else in business and, you know, in friendships, I know that. That it can be received as, you know, too strong and judgy. And now I've learned to listen first. And if they ask for my advice, then. Then I will give it and they will know that it comes from, you know, a genuine place.

That's so important to understand how others receive us. Right. Like, I think it's important for us to know ourselves, but I think the. The most important thing is to understand how other Enneagram types might receive us. That has been the saving grace for a lot of my relationships. And also, like, I have to understand that not everybody's going to, like, no matter me at my best or not, they're not always going to receive this well, because we can shine a light on parts of people that they don't want to see professionally. What do you think? Like, obviously, working in business with your husband brings a whole different dynamic. I've done it before. Not easy. What gifts do you bring to the table professionally that he lacks other than what you just said? You know, like the thinking things through.

Specific to a five or just in general? Because.

Yeah, specific to a five.

Specific five. I will. I'm way more organized. He calls me. He calls me the keeper of the calendar and spreadsheets and all sorts of crap. Yeah, he's. He's definitely not good at that. Yeah, organize, organized thoughts, organized ideas. We have, you know, like, systems in place to keep track of everything. And he used to have those things in place before me, but they were not being used. Now we actually use them.

Oh, I love that. So, like, Your superpowers are your superpowers, right? Like you can go down the rabbit hole, you can be an information junkie like you said, you can go far, so far into it, where you're in research, research, research. But the doing part sometimes gets on the back burner. So one of the things, you know, you and I have talked about is the use of our wings and how we use the wings as these like bookending supporting roles in our life to not change who we are, but to support when the five tools aren't the right tools for the job. We've got to tap into that. So as a five, you know this, but the listeners may not that you have access to the four wing and the six wing. And my school of thought is to be able to know how to use both in a very strong way, not just be one wing heavy. So how do you see yourself first of all, you know, because the 6 is probably an easier go to for you as a five because they're such troubleshooters and you know, prepared and responsible and all of that. But for you to go to the highly emotional four or highly creative and imagination driven four, where do you see yourself leaning hard into that and all the beautiful ways that you can with that?

I used to say that I thought that I leaned more on the six in my professional life with work and that I leaned more on the four in romantic relationships and friendships because I value the connection with the people that I'm in relationship with. I'm starting to see that the four show up in my work. The creativity, the want to be authentic. I don't know if there was a reason for the shift, but I can definitely see both of my wings showing up more. As far as my relationship with my husband, I am that passionate person with him. I value our time together. I love as deep as a five can go. I would say that sometimes I feel like it definitely leans towards the four.

So with the four, I love that you are using it. And not just the interpersonal, romantic and friendship wise because there's so much of the beauty in what you're doing in the world today and business wise that that 4 being accessed is really awesome. As you know, we can use our wings in a not so healthy way either. And I'm sure there's a history in relationships where maybe you got too in deep with emotions and that chameleon part, it's like, oh, let's play this role today or right. In a not so healthy way. Do you see in ways that you have used the four In a not so healthy way. Before the four.

In a not. Yeah. Yes. When I was younger and a bit less self aware, I definitely, looking back, I wasn't being true to myself and those relationships. And I was definitely putting on, you know, a lot of facades to fit in.

Yeah. How do you use your six wing? Because the five can be just information where the six can tend to be more strategic and action most of the time. How do you implement the six in your life today?

We plan a lot. So whether it's business or like you said, all the adventure stuff that we do, I'm always planning for. I wouldn't call it, like, worst case scenario, but if things were to go wrong, like, okay, I prepare or I'm constantly thinking ahead. Yeah. If, you know, if a business deal goes wrong, then what, you know, what, what's the next plan? Or if we're out and about adventuring. And I just, I like to know that I'm always prepared. And. And I, as an eight, I trust that Mike's got it. My husband, I just, that he's got it. I'm still like filling in. I like, it's like I fill in the gaps for him and he's aware, like, sometimes they're like, oh, you know, I forgot about this. I got it.

Yeah. I think once an 8 recognizes that you being this troubleshooter isn't a disrespect or because you don't think he has it handled, like, it's really like, there's nothing like having a five or six in our lives for an eight who can be a loose cannon from time to time. But that 8 ego has to really know that it's coming from a helpful, loving place. Not because you think we're weak sauce and don't have it handled right.

That's something that you help me understand in relationship with him is as a five, you know, I, you know, coming to him with. With a suggestion or maybe not even in a suggestive way, but like, hey, we should do this, you know, rather than approach it as like, look, I know you got it, I know you got it. I'm here to help. Approaching things that way has. Has made a difference. Absolutely.

You know what somebody said to me over the weekend? And it was. And she's not even somebody that knows me super, super, super well, but she knows me pretty well. And she. It was probably. And I have great people in my life, but she said, she goes, I know you got you. And if you need a little extra reinforcement and support, I got your back too. I was like, yes, she knows the eight language. Like, yes, I do have me and I am more than okay. And yes, I welcome all the love and support too. And I appreciate that. So, yeah, for all you guys listening, like, really cool. I love that you got that.

Yeah.

So the other part of the framework of the enneagram 5 are the lines, right? We have, like, where we go when we're under, you know, some stress. We have one that, you know, is like the holy grail of our type, that. That really stretches us in a different way to grow. So I. Once I understood the framework, like, fully, it never surprised me that why fives were drawn to me. Right. Not because I'm awesome, but because, well, you are. Well, I am, but. But you see a part of you in me in a different way. Like, and the growth number for the five is the eight, right? It's that. And this is why we love each other so much. It's like, we don't bullshit, we don't like small talk, we don't like fluffy language. We love bullet points.

Right.

Right. Now, the 8 can be a little more bold with it. And then of course, that action taking component. So when you first were studying the Enneagram before I even showed up, and you saw that the 8 was like your growth number, and then realizing you're, you know, married to one now, what beautiful qualities about the eight were the ones you wanted the most that you saw? Like, yeah, I want to be more like that.

Bold, direct, and someone that takes action on something that they're passionate about. Because just looking back at my life without knowing about the Enneagram, I can pinpoint certain areas and, you know, my life, things or events or things that I was passionate about, and I. I was able to communicate it to the world or I was able to take action on those things and. But it. It doesn't come natural. Like, it's not something that's present all the time. It has to be something very special that. That drives me to. To have those eight, you know, qualities. So like I said, you know, I. I heard you and the things that you were doing, and like, I know that that's what attracted me. And I just. I think it's. It's funny that, that I, you know, that I married an 8. Because he does bring those things out in me.

Yeah.

And it can be a little bit of a.

Like a.

Of a. Of a pull, you know, for him to do that, but he's aware and I can tell him when I think that it's a Little bit too much and I need a little bit more time or more space. But yeah, I would say that one.

Of the things I've noticed with people, myself included, before I understood or knew the framework of the Enneagram, because my growth number is the two. I recognize because, like, what you said was so true. It is not a natural move at all. In fact, the growth number for whatever your Enneagram type is the very thing that gets you most out of your comfort zone. And I recognized areas where I was on the verge of leaning heavy into my tube before I knew this and had any awareness. And I would sabotage it or shut it down because it felt like a weakness to me. Do you ever. Or probably not so much now because, you know, like, that's the target we're aiming for. Is that direct, bold, action taking, not afraid, part of you. But have you noticed there have been parts in your life where you'll justify kind of like shying away from that in the past?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

As. As you're saying that I thought of like certain times when I would say yes to something because I, you know, I was feeling really confident and I can do this, you know, and that. And then as a date, came close to being on a stage or speaking in, you know, speaking in front of people or doing whatever. Whatever it was that had to be done. I allowed, like a fear of not being competent enough to. To sabotage that. And I justified it as like, well, I'm not the right person for it because I don't know this or this or that. And I can also see how the seven in me stepped in to just, you know, say, yeah, I'll do it without having no preparation.

Right, Right, exactly. Like, I think this is the hardest Fives have one of the hardest things to discern, whether they're really under stress and leading into that stress. 7. Because it can feel very. 8. Like and bold and. And all the things, but it can be masked as that unhealthy, you know, avoidance. 7. It's like that fearlessness, but then like the oh, shit moment happens and you're like, what did I just do? So four or five really discerning. Is this a growth move and bold because I'm passionate about it, or is this a bold thing because I'm avoiding. That's why also that four wing is so, so important. You know, that authentic part of you is like, is this really true for me? Is this true for the passion? Is this a yes? Yes. Because it's in my soul. Not because I just, you Took the.

Words out of my mouth. So when you asked me to be on your. On your podcast, that ate in me. Like. Like, yes. Like, it's awesome. The. The little boy started saying, oh, you know, like, do. Are you the right person to represent the Fives? But I realized it's not out of a place of fear, but out of a place of I want to be authentic and I want to be, you know, true to. To the Fives, and true. And rather than have that fear step in and allow me to doubt that, that at times would want to over prepare or do too much, I allowed that other part of me to. To think like, no, this is. I want to do this. And I'm gonna trust that Tracy is the awesome person, awesome woman, Enneagram expert that she is, and she'll. She'll lead this call. I just have to show up and be me and trust.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I think Fives really do have the hardest time because that 7 and 8 can look very, very similar. And that takes radical honesty with yourself to be able to say, like, oh, shit, that was a hell yes, because I was, like, afraid and avoidant rather than. It's a fuck yes, because, yeah, it's the right thing for me. What would you say, or what would the people in your life say is the best part about being loved or led by you as an enneagram 5? Like being friends with. Like, let's leave the husband out of this because we've talked enough about him. But like, your friends or people that you lead professionally, what would they say is the best part about that with you as a 5?

That I. I am thorough. I am thorough. I explain things well. I lay out, expect.

And also that I'm. That I'm adventurous and that I am willing to have fun. That I'm willing to take risks. And I. And that can. That can go back and forth in friendship and in business.

Totally. And what would you think they would tell us is the most challenging part about being loved by or led by you?

That there are times when I'm too quiet and I draw and that they can't read me and they don't really know what's going on. And. And sometimes they. They're inclined to take things personally. Being aware that a 5 does that. That need. That a 5 needs space. That a 5 is me, that I'm very private, you know, that. That it takes. It takes a lot for me to really open up. I can see how. How they can find it, you know, challenging.

Well, I know this One. Well, because, you know, as an eight, that is our kind of disintegration number. And even when I'm in my bold 8ness, energetically, I can be so in my 5 and have energetically cut all of you off. And even though I can be fully present with you, people can feel the disconnect. Speaking of that, with your husband being an 8, do you recognize very, very quickly when he's in that five cave that I call it?

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Does it trigger you or do you find you know how to support him better?

It used to trigger me because it used to feel like he was being distant and just cutting me off.

But.

But knowing that he's innate and knowing that that's where he goes to his five cave, I can be aware of that and. And let him be and know that when he's ready to come out, like, he's. He's going to be. He's going to be him.

That dark side of the five, whether you're a five or an eight, who kind of leans into that heavy, has been the demise of a lot of my relationships if. If I don't communicate it properly. And even when I do communicate it properly and with so much love and compassion, people still feel the abandonment and they can't recover from it. Do. Do you ever have that experience?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I have. And it's hard. It's been on my heart lately because I have lost friendships that I thought were really good friendships.

Do they give you an explanation?

One person did. And she. She told me that she needed more from me.

Yeah.

That she needed more time. That she needed more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she did. And it was bravo for her for.

Having the courage to say that. I applaud that. Not fun to hear, but still.

And also, though, like, over time, I learned that. That it's okay, that I couldn't be that. You know, not that I didn't love her, but I. But I. I can't. I can't, like, beat myself up over it.

Yeah.

You know, it's the people that I have in my life or the people that I consider friends, that they know that they're my friends, that they know that I love them. The same way that you said that, that I vetted you as a five, that I've vetted you, that I've already done the research and that I'm ready to. To. To do life, whether professionally, whatever it is. It's the same thing with friendships, you know, Like, I. They on my end, they're in my life because I Truly care. Because I love them. Because I've opened a place within me that not a lot of people have access to.

Yeah, yeah. Same, same. And that's why it's really hard when we are misunderstood, but also recognizing that we are really great at a lot of things. But us as humans, regardless of your Enneagram type, aren't great at certain things. And when we're in any kind of relationship, friendship, business partnership, you know, romantic partnership, relying on one person to be everything, you're always going to be disappointed because they're just strengths that we have as a certain Enneagram type and stuff that we can get by on, but we won't be excellent at. Like, I'm not the most excellent nurturer. You're probably not either. Naturally, I can do it, but it's not probably the kind that you want. Have a. Have some twos in your life for that. Yeah, like just have them. Like, I'm. I will be a champion for you. You will be like a support. Like no problem. And just understanding that and being very clear with people. So what are you doing these days? Because, yes, you have been working with your husband, but I know you've shifted professionally, which embodies everything we've talked about today.

Absolutely.

Getting into your wings and your growth. So tell the people and. And trust me, I wouldn't have her talking about this if I didn't think this would benefit you all. And you know, I don't let people promote anything unless I have vetted them. So just a little hint, hint here what she's going to share with. I know many of you need. So Denise, let them have it. What are you doing these days with all your beautiful enneagram 5 stuff?

So marketing can be confusing. And if you don't have the right message to communicate with your ideal client, you're going to get stuck. And there's things that you're good at as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, and marketing doesn't have to be it. So I implemented a framework for storytelling in the business with my husband and we were able to 5x and just a little over a year. And I love this, this storytelling framework so much, this part of branding and marketing, that I actually became certified in a framework to do this for other businesses. So that's what I do. I help businesses get clear on their messaging so that marketing is not confusing, it's not hard. And you have peace of mind knowing that your business is growing, communicating to your ideal client.

Stories sell. They do, because it's where we Build the intimate connection with the people that we are, you know, servicing, selling to helping, leading all the things. And not only that, her understanding and being certified in Enneagram framework brings another level of understanding. Not just the framework of positive incredible storytelling for marketing purposes, but interpersonally, personally. She knows, you know, you as a client even, she knows how you operate. Because I'm the worst. I am the absolute worst because I hate marketing. I'm terrible at it. I know I am. I'm like, well, forget it. You just should know and then try. It's like pulling teeth out of me. Like having somebody like her, she would know like as an 8, I'm gonna, if I feel like I'm weak, I'm going to ghost her. And she knows that. And so she would know how to effectively lead me through the process that you know, especially if it's your personal brand or your business, it's like a child, it's like your baby in some way, right? Very vulnerable, very exposing. So having somebody that has the ability of non attachment who is framework certified not just in storytelling for marketing, but also framework certified for personality and self awareness and emotional intelligence. You got the holy grail here with deniser jones.com so go there right now. Who is the person that you are looking forward to work with?

Someone who loves what they have to offer to the world and wants to get it out in front of people who they know will benefit from it. So whether it's a service, whether it's a product, but there's that missing piece of your message. Like you don't, you can't seem to get across to your ideal customer that I want to work with you. I want to help you get the awesome thing that you have to offer to the world. To the world.

Little side note, just listening to her like over the last hour that we've been chatting, I'm probably going to have her look at my website. I already know. Not the new one, not the new one, the old one. Shit, the old one. Shit, I've already like ripped on that. It's terrible. It's awful, all the things. But even the new one, like I know like the copy and the messaging is not great and I'm going to need her help. So I'm going to be calling.

That's my jam right there. It's so five of me to like words. I love math as a kid and for me words are like an equation, like figuring out what the right words to use with the right messaging. I geek out on that. So I'm excited.

Well, I'm going to be calling you because not only do I know that that's your jam, you know, the Enneagram, and you know what I do day in and day out, and who. Who better to help me with that than you? So I will be calling her myself, you guys. So go find her. Her website is deniser jones.com. any final words on what it's like to be a beautiful enneagram5, my friend?

Oh, gosh. It's a wonderful journey.

Yeah, it's a wonderful journey. And I'm not just saying this as a five, but for everybody listening, that is. That is really digging into their type. It's one thing to know your type and understand your type. Obviously, it's you feel understood, you feel seen and heard. But it's when you start learning more about other types and the ways that you can communicate better with them and have compassion. That's where. That's where there's a ton of more growth.

What is for you, like, as an enneagram5? What's the number one way that you feel supported? Loved. Support. Significant.

What's like the love language of the enneagram 5? Not like the official love language, but what speaks to your heart and soul that makes you feel nurtured, loved and.

Supported, given time and space to. To be me? Yeah. And I. I say that because, you know, so there's times when. When people want something right now or they ask a question, they want it now, or they are. They ask for a contribution in some way and they want. But if I give. If I have a little bit of time and a little bit of space to process, I'm gonna give you a better version of me or I'm gonna. What I'm gonna offer is gonna be that much better because I care.

I love it so much, you guys. I know that we learn so much about ourselves through the framework of the Enneagram, but I think the real magic happens when we understand all the different kind of people that are in and around our life. It's when we can communicate more effectively. It's where we have deeper connections. We earn credibility and trust, and we just find the juicy parts of life through this journey that we take with each other on however long we are blessed here on Earth. Denise, thanks so much for being on and sharing your heart and your wisdom. You guys, if you want to dive deeper into your Enneagram type or figure it out for sure, go to traceyomalley.com the work with me section and I can help you further on that journey. And if you want to dive into your messaging as a professional, go to deniserjones.com she's the best.

Thank you.

Oh thanks honey. Until next time, you guys.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the Leadership Formula podcast. Please help us spread the word about this show by sharing it with a friend and leaving a written Apple podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me directly on Instagram at tracyomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@tracyomalley.com I'm excited to lead you into the next level of your life.

Sam.