EP339: The HOW Behind Building Bulletproof Teams with Lia Garvin (SX Enneagram Three)

Okay, I know you may have heard about the Enneagram or someone told you.

You need to know all about it.

So here you are.

But what the hell do you do with it? Great news.

You are in the right place. Lead with the Enneagram is the show where you will actually learn how to use this incredible growth tool and apply it in all areas of your life, personally and professional. Hi, I'm Tracy. And to be honest with you, I was a skeptic of the Enneagram before I started to actually integrate it into my life. In fact, in true enneagram 8 style, I told my therapist to F off when she wanted me to dive into it well over a decade ago. Now that I have more than a decade of experience using the Enneagram and working on myself in my family with those closest to me, building my own bulletproof leadership sales teams with one on one clients, couples, leading workshops for top Fortune 100 executives, and speaking to large audiences all across the globe about this powerful tool. I've got the proof and deep understanding of how to help you implement this into your life instead of it just being some fun thing you heard about. The Enneagram can be a complex model. But with me as your guide, I will show you how to first lead yourself in a powerful, effective and compassionate way and then help you lead others that way in your life as well. This podcast will have powerful conversations with guests, live typing sessions, and as well as solo episodes of Breaking down dynamics of the Enneagram and how they impact your life, career and relationships. So now let's dive in.

Hey. Hey.

Welcome back to an episode of Lead with the Enneagram. And I always get excited when I have interviews because I don't interview anybody that I don't personally believe in. Like, and absolutely put my stamp of approval on that is one thing you will always know with anyone that I interview is they are the real freaking deal. And today is no different. And I like, we speak a very similar language. Even though she's a one on one Enneagram type three and I'm a one on one Enneagram type eight. Like, when I'm in the room with this chick, like, I feel her and I fucking love it. And you're going to love her too. And we, we do similar things in a similar space. We work very closely with teams and organizations in really helping them leverage what they have. She's more of the how to do it and exactly like your blueprint and your playbook on how to make it happen. Where I work on more of the emotional intelligence. But when you combine the two things that we do together. Talk about bulletproof teams. Right? So I wanted to introduce you to Leah Garvin. She is a friend of mine. She also has trusted me with a huge part of her journey, personally and professionally. I've worked with her and her husband before too, to kind of figure all that crap out as young parents and entrepreneurs and all the things. But she is a business consultant that, like I said, helps you really streamline the how to get where you want to go without throwing a bunch of shit up at the wall and hoping something sticks. She will tell you exactly what sticks. So, Leah, I'm so excited to have you you here, so welcome.

Thank you so much and love that intro. I'm gonna, that's what I'm gonna call it, helping people throw things in the wall and figure out what sticks. And I also, I love it. I also call it disruption without destruction. Which is fun.

Yeah, love that. Yeah. Oh, you know, like as an 8 and as a 3, we like to disrupt. Shit. Yeah, we in our past that's such a great leeway into this. Like, we are both like assertive types. The 3 and the 8 and the 7 also are very assertive types. And they don't always think through things. They just kind of go for it and worry about it later. And so even though we are, we love to disrupt, we can also be very destructive if we're not careful. So let's talk about you being a three first before we kind of get into how you can help every single person listening right now. Because, you know, I believe in you. And I'm like, yeah, put my, my stamp of approval on Leah. But as an enneagram 3, usually we end up teaching what we've had to learn most. And so this disruption without destruction, I'm sure has played a big role in your life. So as a three, a one on one, three, the more intense kind of three, how has that looked for you? And how did you end up breaking the code on disruption without the destruction that can come with that sometimes?

Yes. Well, I think, you know, my, my work over the last decade or so was in the corporate world, working in tech. And as a non engineer, I had to figure out, well, how the hell am I going to make an impact? And it was, you know, and dealt with all that imposter syndrome and feelings of already being a woman, so you're underrepresented on that dimension. And then not being an engineer and when I would, my roles were in program management and Team operations. And I would take a look at a team and be like, hello. Like, this is why things aren't working. It's because people aren't talking to each other or people are excluded or, you know, you said the party was this thing today, and tomorrow it's this other thing. And it was so clear to me what was going on. And I felt like nobody was looking at these kinds of issues. It was all talk about, you know, focus on the work stuff first and the people stuff later. Well, no one's gonna do the work if you didn't focus on them first. And so I would start raising these things that seem pretty obvious. Like, and I think there was moments where people said, oh, wow. It's like you have a spidey sentence for people and you understand it, but there was a lot of moments when people said, you know, you're raising too many issues. Be a team player. Just go with the flow. And I wrestled with for many years this tension between disruption and destruction. And I think, you know, I started to really realize that what I needed to do was repackage the message. I know you talked a lot about that because, you know, repackaging how you frame the issues that you surface or the solutions you bring, but really simplifying it and framing for people that when I'm talking about what we need to do to operate more successfully and effectively as a team, I don't mean, like, we have to scrap it and start over. You know, I mean that there's really small, disruptive things that we can do that have a huge impact, and that can look as simple as talk about some working norms, like, when do we send emails versus text versus chats, all the way up to, you know, how do we reward? How do we give people bonuses when in the moment? So there's taking everything and just bringing so much clarity. This actually is the disruption without destruction. It. It brings ease to how people work. And as I started to communicate it in this way, it was received a lot better. But I think, you know, my journey into entrepreneurship was, you know, about. Well, I want to really bring this message at scale. I want to. I want to help more. More teams and more businesses and shifting into supporting entrepreneurs. I'm like, having a conversation. This can transform their whole business, you know, and it can make people feel like, oh, wow, now I can finally get out of my head, like, stop throwing stuff at the wall, like you said, and grow my business. Like, this was transformational. So it's been really exciting.

So one of the things that enneagram threes can get tripped up on and also get a bad rap for is rushing through a process to get to the finish line faster. Now, I know why you might do that, but I also know why you're also really good at slowing people down in a way that can speed them back up. It's not your favorite thing to do. So how did you break through that tendency? That's not who you are. Like, yes, you're an enneagram3, but, like, we don't have to wear that badge and, like, hold true to it all the time is the beauty of the framework of the Enneagram is understanding how to use that skill set of crossing finish lines fast.

Yeah.

But also doing due diligence in making sure we've troubleshot this enough. So how do you slow down enough? I mean, because you're a fast paced, get shit done person. I love that about you, obviously. But how have you learned how to slow down enough not just for your own personal life and professional life, but also now how do you teach that very thing that you tend to, like, struggle with?

Yeah. I mean, it's funny. And this is one of the examples of when you shared that as my Enneagram type, I was like, oh, my God, Literally, story of my life. Okay. This is why I became instantly obsessed with this framework. And this was something that obviously, as you just said, I struggled with a lot and I got feedback on. You know, you have to bring people along that people, when you explain it once they don't get it, it might be very obvious to you that this is a solution. And then it's quickly frustrating because people didn't see it was the solution right away.

And then you feel like, why is nobody moving forward?

And so bringing people along and thinking about that feedback, what does that really mean? How do I make sure, like you said, you're informing people, you're weighing their perspectives, feedback, adjusting before you move forward. Something with something I started to be really intentional about and how I do that with teams. Especially when you talk about anything related to process. When you say the word process, everyone either rolls their eyes, like, stops inviting you to meetings.

One, five, or six.

Right. Okay. So six of the nine tell you to, like, get lost. So what I had to deal with, especially, you know, if maybe more corporate leaders, like eights or seven. Right. So you're dealing with. When you say process, many folks, two thirds are like, you know, boo. It's going to be bureaucratic and. And boring. And especially working with a lot of work with a lot of designers, engineers. And so it was like kind of all over the map. And how I would work through this was always framing it in how this thing benefits them. I mean, if you don't start there, literally forget it. They're never going to be on board. It could be so simple. And so how I explain anything is, hey, here is what. So I first talk and listen to people. Actually this is the first thing first got to hear what people's pain points are. Because how are you going to tell them you're solving their problem when you've never listened to them? So back in, I mean, probably not.

Revealing the full problem, right? They're giving you the polished up answer that doesn't reveal their crack in the system.

Exactly. So I mean, for, for many teams, when, you know, we worked sat together in the office, I would sit down with someone, you know, a designer, engineer, I watch them work and say, hey, what's that? Like, where are you getting stuck? Or you know, ask someone when they seem frustrated what's going on and really start to internalize what were the patterns and what were the themes? Where were people getting stuck? And again and again, it was very often that they didn't feel like they had clear expectations, they didn't feel like they were included in the right meetings. Maybe there was a complicated process. So I started to see there was themes. And then as I started to understand general things going on, then I could quickly articulate, well, what's in it for them. So I could say, hey, here's what we're hearing and here's what you want and that's why we're doing this. And always connect a process or solution back to a pain point that someone shared with me. And then that was really the way that I brought people along. And what I think is so important to, for entrepreneurs and business owners or corporate leaders is like, literally forget it. If you are not going to explain to someone what's in it for them, they're not going to be bought in. And the other piece of this, if you don't then incentivize and reward them for doing that thing, then they're not going to keep doing it. And this is how we get this behavior change we want to see. Like if we say, you know, it's a huge issue or, you know, priority in the corporate world, diversity, inclusion, if you tell everyone to be hiring people of different backgrounds and including, and then you just reward them on how many products they launched and whatever, and you have no dot connecting across that incentive, they're not Going to stick with it. And this is the case raising toddlers.

My yes, it's all the same.

What's in it for you and what.

Reward do you get at the end?

Like that's how you do it.

So how did you slow down enough to recognize this? Like I had to learn this because I used to just speak in a way like you were just strong enough, you would understand this. And although that would work with somebody may be like you. Right. That's more aggressive and assertive. Like when you're talking to somebody who's more sensitive and empathetic. Like good things, like important things. How do you slow down enough? Like this is. This is the magic. What you're saying is so important. Whether it's a hard conversation with your partner at home, whether it's a hard conversation with one of your kids or a leader in your team or an employee or whatever. Slowing down enough to say, okay, I know what I have to say. I'm right. I know what I have to say is important. And I also know that the person on the receiving end may not receive it that way. So me slowing down to speak to everyone, what is in it for them. I know earns credibility and trust. I have to really exercise restraint sometimes because I'm so fast paced and I know you are too. How do you build that muscle?

Yeah.

For you yourself. And then how do you teach others to build that muscle?

Yeah.

You know, people are sitting their ways. I'm right.

And it's.

Yeah.

It's like yeah, but how's that working for you?

Yeah, exactly. Well, I think one interesting thing and what I was both surprised and then it made total sense with the enneagram 3 was it's in the heart center. Right. Is that that it's actually I'm very, very big on building connection and building rapport and I think both being three like drive, drive, go, go. But also being like highly sensitive and really being tuned in both. Now this becomes people pleasing. But. But being it's. I think that slowed me down a little bit because I could quickly see if I was losing somebody in the conversation. Yeah. And you know, and that was scary because of the people pleasing. But it was like.

And the winning and all the things and the finishing.

But it gave me. It actually sort of allowed me to rein it in a little bit. And I think unfortunately in many situations it was like quickly thrashing to a people pleasing like okay, nevermind, we'll just.

Do that this way.

But there I think over time in building up more belief and Confidence and assurance around what it's doing and then still having that, you know, Spidey sense, but knowing when to use it, really starting to see, okay, what are the patterns across when this message isn't landing and what are the moments. And then sort of reminding myself on a continual basis to slow down, to build the relationship that you might not get this done on the first conversation. And I mean literally, like up until my, one of my last meetings in the corporate world, I was like, just.

Fell out the fucking spreadsheet. I was like, it was, there was days where I couldn't do it, but.

I try to really check in and be self worse. So it was like, even when I would have that meeting where I was like, fuck, why did I flip out? Like, okay, I gotta do the next one better. And so I think when teaching this, reminding leaders, and he was, you don't, you don't have to get right in the first time, but let's reflect. Like, where are you losing people? Where are people missing the mark? Where are people unclear. Let's listen to them, let's collect that data and then let's adjust. So asking everyone to kind of have a continual feedback loop instead of waiting is really something that I encourage folks to do. And the bonus is that makes feedback easier because when you talk about feedback once a year, it's the scariest thing on earth and people run away. If you are able to make it a little bit more dialogue, hey, where are we at? How are things going now? We can have that conversation anytime.

Totally. And what I love about Enneagram Threes, you know, and you're fast learners and you're not afraid to put the reps in to get really good at something. So like I'm not surprised at all. Like you recognize where like you're missing the mark, you're losing people. And the beauty of being in enneagram 3 is you're very fast learners to get to an end goal really, really quickly and you put in the reps that make you really fucking great at what you do. So I want to ask you about teams and where teams and companies are getting stuck. You know, how we're doing business in 2023 is way different than what we had to do three years ago when you know, the whole pandemic and shit happened, right? Like how like teams are having, you're having to lead teams remotely and virtually and, and there's fears and all of the fears and insecurities and now recession talking and all that crap. So whether it's a Corporate team or an entrepreneurial team or somebody that's starting out, building a team that maybe needs to think ahead before they just hire their best friend or somebody that they found on upwork or indeed or something. Where do you see teams and companies getting started, stuck today that they really have to kind of keep at the forefront, not be paralyzed by, but also kind of keep it in their mind?

Yeah, I think the biggest place folks are getting stuck is focusing on the what and the why, but not the how. And everything I've seen before pandemic and certainly now is gaps in how things get done, how we make decisions, how we communicate priorities, how do we track work? When you have someone that you're not seeing every day, how do you maintain, build trust? Like, I mean, I think there's a lot of stuff we're wrestling with between I want to trust my employees, but I kind of want to monitor them. Like, should I bring them into the office? Because that's the only way I know that they actually showed up for work today. We're saying, okay, we have burned out employees, we have all this stress, let's give someone an extra vacation day, think it's solved. That's actually a how issue. It's too many priorities. That's the answer. Like that's how you solve burnout. You create less work. Right. So I think any business, the biggest place to start looking is have we made it easier to get work done? Have we simplified it, removed steps, made things more clear? This is how you do more with less. Because if you don't have more people and you don't have more time, you sure as hell have to make it easier and more seamless to get things done.

Do you also help them? Like it's one thing to have the process and like you're, you're 100% right. And I say this all the time, like businesses, whether you're an entrepreneur or you're running a corporate team, you have to do more with less. And so you have to leverage every human and you have to know how to communicate.

Yes.

Effectively. Yeah, it's like this three part thing. Like you have less, you have to be effective and you have to be able to communicate it effectively.

Right, right.

Out of those three things, what do you think is like the hardest for leaders, teams, entrepreneurs to do? And where do they get tripped up the most, in your opinion?

I mean, I think it's communicate effectively because this, it all these things mean different things to each of us. And I mean this is literally exactly right.

And so right so at least there's nine different ways people are motivated and.

And people what, what motivates them and what they're afraid of. And so if we only apply what we think, take a startup where you may say, you know, well, we all want to make money or achieve this thing, why is my team not not following suit? I care about it. Shouldn't they like. No, they don't care about it because you have not tapped into what's in it for them. So I think that the, the communication is the big piece and that's where it can get so frustrating. Because as a business owner, as a corporate leader, you feel like you've been so clear because you think about this every minute of the day. You wrote up the vision, you've talked about it with your executive team, you got the investors around it, but like employee number, you know, 67,421, you know, or I have seven managers above me or the VA that you hire to support you as a small business owner, they don't have that connection to it. And it doesn't mean they don't care, doesn't mean they're not a good employee. It's like you just got to build that for them. So that's what it's about, I think the, the effective communication and that translation of the vision and the processes, making it simpler, making it more easy to digest and then like we've said, collecting feedback. Like, is this landing. Yes, no, somewhere in the middle. What can we do to make it more clear?

So for somebody like me who is a visionary who resists processes and systems because I'm so instinctual, right, as an enneagram, I operate into the what is happening now and just go into that where you as an enneagram3, not only are you in the feeling and you're a kick ass like go getter, threes also kind of go into what has happened, which does make you good systemized people for people that are listening and they know they need what you're talking about. But they're like, God, like poke my eyes out. Yeah, I know that you have the core six things that are important. So I, I know I'm listening like very clearly to you right now and I'm like, shit, I need you. Like I need your help right now because I'm like very instinctual. There's no rhyme or reason to what I do and I'm missing the mark in some areas. And I know there's people listening right now. You are listening right now knowing like the how I Know if I have too much, how I'm going to get overwhelmed. And when I get overwhelmed, I get paralyzed and then I do nothing. And then, oh great, now I get to pull the pull out the shame stick because now I know better and I'm not doing better. So how, what does that look like? Those six dimensions of an effective team. What are the pillars that you talk about and give them like this playbook to make it not so overwhelming that you just get a case of the fuck it's and bury it somewhere.

Exactly, exactly.

So to avoid the fuck its we like, I will sit down with a business owner, founder, entrepreneur and we'll talk about these six dimensions. As Tracy just said, and these are if one of them doesn't resonate, it's like these, these are kind of typical areas that a team wants to be thinking about. But there may be something else that comes up and that's awesome and we'll talk about that. So I talk about first onboarding. Like how do you want people to know how to work in your company? Is there any sort of steps they need to follow? Any like email list they need to sign up with is what do you want that first day to look like? I mean, and, and I remember back when I had joined like the fir, my first job in tech, I moved from San Francisco to Seattle by myself. My husband was in school and, and I'm so excited. And I get there, I walk in, the admin walks me my desk and no one comes to talk to me the entire day. I sat there from 8 to 4:30 and I was like, why the fuck.

Did I move here? What have I done?

That was my onboarding experience. And so I'm like, you know, this is what people start to feel like when we haven't thought about it. Now it doesn't have to be a complicated process. It's having a conversation about what do you want that to feel like? Are there some things you want to map out? And then we move forward. So we talk about onboarding, we talk about priorities. Really what's your vision for the company? What's like the one big thing that you want to happen this year? Is it doubling your revenue? Is it opening another location? Is it launching this new product? Then how are we going to make sure we know the activities that support that? And we don't have 55 activities. What are like the big three that are going to support that? Then we talk about how we make decisions. You know, where do you need to make the calls? If it's all the Calls, great. But like, how do we know when you're making it, what the decisions are based on? Ideally, where can some of your team members make some of the calls? How do they make sure you're informed? Because you should be informed as the business owner? And how do you provide feedback, talk about how to set expectations, how do you want to show up as a leader? What is your schedule? What do you want to see from your teams? And then maybe some nuts and bolts around, you know, if you're building a product that people use it and try it, you know, if, if you're expecting people to be brand ambassadors, that they know that and what that looks like. And we talk about, I think I got through work tracking. This is a tough one, right, because nobody wants to be monitored. So how are you spending?

Micromanage.

No one wants a micromanage.

No one should be monitored.

And yet.

Yeah, and we have to know, right? So, so we talk about, well, how first are you spending your own time as the business owner? Where do you want to be in a year? What's the delta there? How do you want to structure your weeks? And then for your team members is there around. We know the expectation, we know the priorities. How do you want to sort of map out how their work should be, should be tracked, if it makes sense for your business? And last, what does career look like? So, you know, it's not performance management, like in a corporate way. It's how do I know that I'm doing the right thing here on this company and this team? How do I know if I'm going to get a raise? You know, I mean, I've talked to business owners where they said, every, every week my employees are asking if they can get a raise or promotion. I said, well, you could actually just have one conversation about that upfront. And they never ask you about it.

Again because they know it happens on this day.

So in the program, we have a conversation looking across these six dimensions. And then behind the scenes, I do the part that you don't want to do, which is think about, okay, what are the right lightweight, easy to dig processes that support you getting to where you want to be across these six dimensions. And then I'll create this playbook for you and then meet with you again and say, okay, did we get it right or the things won't adjust? And then we together have a meeting with your team and say, hey, we created this thing for you because you asked for more clarity. You want to see what your future is in this company. You want to make sure you're set up for success. That's why we made this. And here's how we're here to support you. So that implementation piece is so key.

Is this something that people like ideally before they start building a team? And like, is this something that would be great to have before you even have, like, if you build it, they'll come kind of thing, like having the systems and kind of ideas of the how in place beforehand?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's critical to think about that. I think it's critical, yeah. To think about the how in some way beforehand, but knowing it will likely evolve as you start bringing people on. Because a lot of times we don't know how we manage. We don't totally know how this is kind of showing up. Like, I know I thought I was really organized until I hired a VA and couldn't think of anything to tell her to do. And then was like, all right, I'll.

Let you go until I figure my shit out.

Even though I'm like drowning in work that I work on every weekend. So, like, I think it's very important to do up front and then like 10 times more important to do once you are managing people, because you learn so much about yourself as you do that. So I often recommend it to folks with a. You know, to get it going at least when you have like three, four people. And then from there we can do it at any point.

So one of the things that make you amazing at this, aside from being a three and a one on one, three and all the things, like, I talk about the tri type a lot and I've been talking about it a lot more. And I know, like, that was the thing for you and like knowing what you do, like, this is another reason why aside from like trusting her, believing in her, knowing her, loving her. But her tri type makes her awesome at this too. So she is a one on one three. She's motivated, fearful like a three. But when she uses the other centers of intelligence, like her thinking center and her instinctual center, she dominates like a 6 in the thinking center and an 8 in the instinctual center. So she's got the 3, 6, 8 tri type. And that archetype is called the justice fighter. So, like, that six and that eight really bookend the three in you. That's the let's fucking go part. Like, that six slows you down to be a master troubleshooter. And that eight part of your instinctual center allows you to deal with the conflict that's going to come up when you're, you know, trying to teach people this kind of process and the playbook and all the things. So what do you find about yourself being like the justice fighter and having the 3, 6, 8 try type, especially since I shared that with you. How do you lean more into those gifts today?

Yes.

Knowing that about yourself. Yeah.

I mean, like, backstory. When. When Tracy said that out loud was literally screamed out in the room.

Like, oh, my God. Like, literally.

I literally lost my mind because my literally the whole time in the corporate world is wrestling with seeing things I didn't feel like were fair. And I. I would say something and it just like kept running against walls. I was able to make some progress sometimes. Like I said. Other times it was not. And I just. A lack of fairness is like my kryptonite. And so to see, I was like, what?

There's an explanation.

So it was like too trippy. I. I was obsessed and I. I couldn't. I think where this has been one. And I've actually, I've shared this advice long before I even heard about this when I was trying to manage this with people that continually calling out things, especially in corporate that are not fair or not working is like. You have a spidey sense. Like I mentioned, you have this X ray vision. The superpower is knowing when to deploy it. It's not every second in every meeting and how to communicate it. Yes, exactly.

I bet where you got tripped up before, like, exactly. Just fighter your whole damn life. No question about it. I can see that in you. Like your energy screams it. The real sweet spot became this is who I am. This is where I critically think and where I'm emotionally intelligent now. How do I communicate this in the win win. What's in it for you way.

Yeah.

You can actually fight for that justice and move the whole team forward.

Yeah.

And not just exactly corporate teams. Your home team.

Yes. Home team, mom, sister, all the things.

Right.

And so. And that's been my biggest thing is reactivity. Feeling like it's so obvious. Right. We talked about these things and saying why, why, why? And it's not about why. It's about how surprise. Right. And so. So this is. It really has been my. My journey. And I think what's been exciting about being an entrepreneur and now re. Engaging with companies from the outside in is I have a lot more leeway to be the justice fighter. It's not seen as destructive anymore because I'm invited into the conversation. So it's just. It's like perfect fit.

Like when you know, I thought that when I.

Without all this certainty of the corporate world, I thought I would have like a daily panic attack when I became an entrepreneur. And I loved it right away. I was like that this is weird.

Like it shouldn't be this great.

But it was because I, I was free, you know, I was free from this thing that just there was a lack, there was a misalignment.

Right. There is the key from going from disruptive without the destructive.

Yes.

Because I'm a rescuer. My tri type is, you know, we're very similar. We have two of the same. You know, you're the three. I have the two in the feeling center, but I have the eight and the six as well. And so I can, I can see things that other people don't. And that rescuer in me, it's where I'm great today. But that rescuer has in the past when I didn't know how to communicate it or speak the win win for the person that was trying to receive it, very destructive.

Yeah.

Now I want to take this a little personal because I, I think we're all holistic beings. And although you do a lot of team consulting and business consulting, you're still a wife and a mom. And like, why your relationship is amazing is the polarity between you and Wes. Right. He's a self preservation nine with a nine to five tri type. She's a one on one enneagram three with the three, six, eight tri type. So you have like amazing things to make a great team. But sometimes in our personal life, that polarity, we are a little missing the mark and feeling a little disconnected from that. And I know when you and I chatted aside professionally, we, we work together, you and Wes and me, that you could feel the reasons why you were great together. But you were coming against each other a lot at the time. How has you understanding Wes and him understanding you? Because he was so transparent and open in our session. How has that shifted how you guys show up? Because you're very. You could not be more different in almost every way.

Yeah.

And how do you make that work for you more effectively today in a win win situation as parents and as lovers?

Yes. I love it. I mean, when I learned my type and the tri type specifically, I said I just felt this burst of empathy for him and, and responsibility and accountability that I had not been able to access before. And I felt like, oh my God, I can look at this whole thing in a new way just in an instant. And that's why I was like Tracy.

We gotta get like the three of us together.

Because I it was like you just got this new language to reengage in your whole every relationship. But like you say, specifically this one. And I think knowing that if his, you know, tenant, if I'm the one to one and he's the self preservation, this is not selfishness. It's not, I don't care about you. This is the default. And for me, if I'm thinking about and I'm in this past center and he's in the now center, that's why I'm getting stuck. When we have a conversation that's tough, he's like, we're past this. And I'm like, I'm never past that.

You know, like, you better believe I'm not trapped. Yeah, we're going deep.

That like, oh my God. This is why it just explained everything. And so now whenever we get stuck, when we're like, wait, are we falling into forgetting about these differences that we know better around. And a huge one for him was as a 9 like speaking up, more like speaking his truth and putting it out there. And for me was to not be like, that's not going to work. No. Or last time you said this and this. Right. And just being like letting it in and accepting it and not really having to make a judgment off it's right or wrong or if I agree and then starting to see how that brings us closer to Kim taking up more space and me, I kind of rein it in a little bit. And I think that empathy and I think as I've said, I'm a reactive person. Like being able to really slow down and maybe and I think choose how I'm going to react much better.

So as a one on one three and him as a self preservation nine. The reason why it probably worked early on is because you could run the show and he's like, whatever, go with flow. Like all the things. But also that go with the flow part was what was frustrating you. It's like, come on, like plant your flag. Like, have an opinion here. So how do you slow down enough and what kind of. I don't want to say strategy because this is your personal relationship. But like what kind of things do you tell yourself before you just kind of go and go, go go mode and take over in order for Wes to speak his truth and his opinions when he's naturally typically going, I don't care, whatever you want.

Yeah.

How do you get that out of him without emasculating him too?

Yeah. One thing that I've recently started trying especially, especially as an entrepreneur and you know, needing help is asking for help, saying, hey, I would love your help on this, I would love your ideas on this, I would love your inputs and creating a space where it's not just me saying, hey, I have this idea, let me show you. Okay, thanks. Bye. But like creating space for him to be sharing his ideas and contributing and me like letting that in and, and so that's one thing that, that I've been doing and really that I feel like you know, one day we, we would love to work together on, on this business. And I think obviously like that's the kind of thing of really feeling out what's that balance of how do you have, you know, leaning on each other's strengths. So I think asking for help has been a, has been a big one. I think. Also I don't know if I do this very well, but I would say it's a strategy I'd like to try is like recognizing there's many ways to solve a problem.

That's what I would tell someone I.

Was, you know, advising and it's not wrong if it's not my way. I think, you know, or if someone disagrees with me, it doesn't mean. Yeah, exactly.

Problem solver. So like he might have ways to solve it. He just needs to use his freaking voice. Right?

Exactly. And I think that's the thing, like it's hey, building dialogue around. I'm sharing because I'm excited versus I want help versus I'm venting. And we have a lot of conversations around that is like what do you want out of this conversation? Hey, I just want to share this update. I didn't want you to solve the problem. There was actually no problem here. Now there's a problem that we're going.

To argue with that's like the new problem. So getting, yeah, getting more clear.

And we found that really, really helpful because you just kind of jump in like hey, I'm excited about this. I'd love to share that with you. Hey, actually could you have five minutes to kind of solve this problem? And teeing it up up front is, has been helpful. I love it.

And then why I love the enneagram because we're holistic beings and especially for high achieving women specifically, we tend to compartmentalize and throw on all these different hats and that like that gets exhausting and energetically will bankrupt you over time. And at my age you can't get away with that. At your age you can push the envelope but you're running out of that time.

Yeah.

So I love that this beautiful tool framework can allow you to wear that one hat all the time. You just switch up how you wear it, depending on what you're doing, who you're talking to, and that you can more elegantly flow through. Boss, babe, business consultant, wife, mom, friend, partner. All the things. I adore this woman, you guys. Seriously. I highly, highly, highly recommend. Like, you know, if you need systems, you need her, period. If you need. And it does. Like, even when she was saying, I was starting to get hives at first about, like, the six pillars, and I was like, oh, this isn't so bad. Okay, okay.

Yeah.

Like, so if I can be okay with it. You certainly can. How do they find you and how do they work with you? And what does all that look like?

Yeah. So find me on my website, Leah Garvin.com and to learn about this playbook, specifically Leah Garvin.com playbook. And that's where you can see, you know, at your own pace, the six dimensions. I have a video on there talking through, you know, what it is a little bit more and why I do it. And I also have a podcast, Managing Made simple, which dives into a lot of the strategies that I have for teams, either in the corporate world, I guess, both corporate, small business, really talking about feedback, the how a lot of these themes that we talked about today. Or find me on Instagram at Leah Garvin.

I love it. All the things will be in the notes, all the spellings and the links and all the things. Definitely, highly, highly recommend having a little bit of Leah in your life. For sure. You're a pleasure to be in mine. I love it. I love having you in my life. And I just get so lit up every time I see you, hear you, see your smile, and just like the passion in which you do what you do and you do it in such high integrity. Like, seriously, I love you. Thanks for being on and sharing your gifts with all of my people.

Thank you so much. I feel exactly the same way. I have just, like, literally, you opened up this whole new reality for me. So I love you so much. I'm so grateful, and thank you so much for having me on.

All right, guys, if you love this episode, let us know. You can tag me on Instagram. I'll make sure Leah gets noted and tagged for sure. If you can't find her, just share it with somebody who. I know a lot of people need this message. I know I needed to hear it. Until next time. I'm wishing you so much transformation, love and leadership in your life.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the lead with the Enneagram podcast. Please help us spread the word about this show and the Enneagram by sharing it with with a friend and leaving a written Apple podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me on Instagram at tracyomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@tracyomalley.com I'm so excited to lead you into the next level of your life.