EP398: Bouncing Back Stronger: Unveiling the Tools to Overcoming Life's Setbacks with Amy Shoenthal (SO Enneagram 2)

Okay, here you are. You are six weeks into the brand new year, and all the things that you have said you wanted to do, you are gonna do, maybe aren't happening. The excitement has worn off. Or maybe life on life's terms has come and hit you upside the head with a setback. And if you are human, and if you are here doing epic cool shit in the world, setbacks are inevitable. And today's guest, my good friend Amy Schoenthal. She is an incredible journalist. She is a writer for Forbes magazine and Harvard Business Review, and she has done marketing for some of the biggest brands in the world. She has a brand new book coming out just in time for you. You're definitely going to want to get it. It's called the Setback Cycle. And today we talk about taking the cringy shit parts of life and. And using it and honoring the process and stepping into action and giving you that freaking green light that you are here that will give you everything that you desire, everything that you deserve, and allow you to make that impact that you want to make personally and professionally. We go through the four phases of what a Setback cycle looks like. How to move through it elegantly and with a lot of class and grace and clarity. You guys are going to want this episode on speed dialogue. You're going to want to listen to it more than once. You're going to want to follow my dear friend Amy. The timing for this couldn't be better, so let's dive in.

Okay.

I know you may have heard about the Enneagram or someone told you you need to know all about it. So here you are. But what the hell do you do with it?

Great news.

You are in the right place. Lead with the Enneagram is the show where you will actually learn how to use this incredible growth tool and apply it in all areas of your life, personally and professionally. Hi, I'm Tracy. And to be honest with you, I was a skeptic of the Enneagram before I started to actually integrate it into my life. In fact, in true enneagram 8 style, I told my therapist to F off when she wanted me to dive into it well over a decade ago. Now that I have more than a decade of experience using the Enneagram and working on myself in my family with those closest to me, building my own bulletproof leadership, sales teams with one on one clients, couples, leading workshops for top Fortune 100 executives, and speaking to large audiences all across the globe about this powerful tool. I've got the proof and deep understanding of how to help you implement this into your life instead of it just being some fun thing you heard about. The Enneagram can be a complex model. But with me as your guide, I will show you how to first lead yourself in a powerful, effective, and compassionate way, and then help you lead others that way in your life as well. This podcast will have powerful conversations with guests, live typing sessions, as well as solo episodes of Breaking down Dynamics of the Enneagram and how they impact your life, career, and relationships. So now let's dive in.

All right, you guys, this is a great conversation. I think that, you know, you heard the intro and, you know, as the New Year thing has worn off, maybe in that morning routine you wanted and the big planner that you bought and all the intentions that you set, I. I'm guessing if you're like most people, a lot of that has gone out to the window and you have.

Reverted back to what you've always done, which leads you to frustration. And, you know, like, you do the same thing over and over again. It's a definition of insanity. And even though we know that sometimes, we still continue to do that. Like, muscle memory is no joke, y', all, especially when you get to my age. And today I wanted to bring on Amy, who is incredible. I had the pleasure of meeting her a couple months back and was immediately captivated not just by her beautiful, loving enneagram2 energy, but just her ability to communicate in a way that felt non judgmental about the very thing that I just talked about, you know, and how some of these things that we call setbacks or.

Patterns or habits that really frustrate us, you know, when we find ourselves in a setback, it's really easy to kind of get into the. The shit storm of that, right? And it becomes this avalanche. But Amy has written a book called the Setback Setback Cycle, which is coming out in like a month or so, and how we turn these setbacks into something magical. And that's going to be like, the premise of our conversation today, because I know so many of you have looked at setbacks as permission to go into a shame spiral or beat yourself up or. Or judge yourself, or even project maybe out into the world, or believe that this isn't just for you, that just. That this just isn't for you. And Amy's going to tell us why that's not true. Hi, Amy.

Hi. How are you?

I'm so excited you're here. I think that in this world and this weird industry of personal development, you know, a lot of it's.

I can't.

So glad we can curse here. Oh, I'm pumped.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So seriously, like, I. There's the E warning on my podcast.

Excellent.

You know, in this land of personal development and where all the gurus out there are saying, all you need is to just do this and all your problems are solved.

Just buy my core. Yeah.

Just buy my course, read my book, and all of it's cured. And, you know, you're, you're part of that elite. If you can do that. What is your take on that? And what, you know, we talked about, I talked about the setbacks and what those mean. And it is hard when you're in the middle of the shitstorm to believe that this is all going to work out for me. Right. But this is the beauty of wisdom. So what is your take on this personal development? Because you're in this space, you know, because you wrote a book kind of helping people and also this, this thing about setbacks and how they can actually work for you.

Well, I'll start by saying one of the lines in the intro of my book very clearly states that this book is not.

Everything happens for a reason. Sort of mushy, warm feeling kind of vibe. It is a very realistic, very action oriented guide to navigate the inevitable that comes at you. We're also, I, I have one line where I very clearly state, we are not here to glorify failure or romanticize suffering. We do not want setbacks to happen. We are not reading this book and going and chasing setbacks or telling you that, like when you are at your lowest, when your whole life has fallen apart, or even when you're experiencing like, those daily micro setbacks and the small things that just really, again, bump you backwards. We're not telling you you're going to enjoy it. What this book does is give you the tools to acknowledge it when it happens, reframe your mindset around it, and hopefully be able to identify and work through it in a way that gets you to that next phase, gets you out of that setback, just more, let's say productively than you would have had you not understood the setback cycle and how it works.

Okay, I love that we're starting with this because something that I've learned, especially in therapy and kind of, you know, kind of navigating and unpacking 50 years of my shit, is that I think there's two camps here when it comes to setbacks. There are those of us that have learned that after a setback, we thrive and we kick ass. And so sometimes we can consciously, subconsciously stir up drama to force a setback to have this overcoming, rise from the ashes kind of thing. And then there's this other camp that is so setback avoidant that they become paralyzed. Right? How do each of those kind of camps navigate this, this whole process? Because I have to be very mindful of not creating drama or intentionally, unintentionally, self sabotaging so I can have this setback cycle of like, yay, I've risen again, right?

Some of us just kind of like love the drama and we're like, I want to go all in on this thing that happened and just like peel away the layers and call it just the worst thing ever so that I can emerge gloriously. And like, honestly, if that gets you through it, you do you, you know, but there's a way to identify it that's like a little bit more, I think, even, right? If you see something or you are, you know, thrust into something beyond your control, you lose a job, you, you know, end a relationship, whether it's a co founder or romantic relationship.

There'S a moment where, you know, it's like all the walls have sort of fallen down. But, and this is a quote from someone I interviewed. When the walls fall down, all of a sudden the whole room opens up. And so you can simultaneously see the open space and the opportunity ahead of you while still feeling the grief and the resentment or the pain and anger over what has just been shattered in order for that opening to occur. And that can happen simultaneously. Those two different camps that you spoke about are going to handle that differently. So there's the people that are going to wallow in it, and there's the people who are going to ignore it and maybe approach it with like a toxic positivity. And that camp, you know, those are the ones that maybe like pretend that they're not in a setback and they're going to try to skip over phase two, which is the embrace phase. That's the phase where you have to sort of feel the feelings. Because as icky as that sounds, and like, I hate that phase, I don't want to feel my feelings so much. But that's where you find stuff out. That's where you get the clues, that's where you glean the data and that, I mean, I could get into the neuroscience of it all. Your brain is always working towards, is always searching towards what it will find rewarding. And it is always trying to get you away from experiences that it thinks will be painful or Unpleasant. And so it's very easy to slip into that toxic positivity of, oh, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. Other people have it worse. I can get through this. This is going to be for the best. But if you don't really like, do the work and think like, wait, that really feels badly. Why does it feel so badly? Where has this come up in other areas of my life? Is it, you know, you know, all the kids say the word trigger. It's, it's an overused word, but it actually fits in this moment. Like, why is this triggering me so much? Am I feeling unworthy? You know, things like that. And it all kind of like dredges up your, your self consciousness. I talked about that in my, in my keynote at the conference that we met at. How I have this self consciousness around intelligence. Yeah. And every time my intelligence is threatened or questioned, even if it's not meant to be questioned, I take it as such because that's where my self doubt creeps in. So everyone has some version of that. And when you go through a setback, all that stuff comes right up.

I've joked a lot that if there was a way to bypass this, this stage, I would have found it.

Yep.

Because this vulnerable part of understanding cognitively that this setback is important for whatever reason, we can understand that from the neck down, but from the neck. Or from the neck up, but from the neck down. Like we want to avoid this because it's messy, it's unpredictable, it's vulnerable, it's all the things. And so I love that, that you shared that like we can't bypass this. Whether it's through, you know, the flex, like I do you over giving and you know, being like the ultimate, you know, helper or the toxic positivity people. So I love that you said that. So what made you write this book? I usually believe I am in the camp that believes that we usually teach the thing that we need to remember the most. That's why I love the Enneagram, because it keeps me on track and really allows me to be self aware and not so much in my ego. And so it's why I love teaching it and it keeps me accountable. So what was kind of happening for you that not only were you living through your own setback cycle, but you're like, holy crap. Like, I know I'm not alone in this and other people could benefit from what I've learned and am continuing to.

Learn from.

What I would have answered this question with when I Started writing the book is very different three years later after getting into it and recognizing the setback that I was in when I started this process. So I. I did initially come to start writing this book because I interviewed so many incredible founders and leaders and people who were doing amazing work. And I felt like there was all this talk of, you know, I started writing this in 2021, and that was right after the, you know, the heart of the pandemic when tons of women left the workforce. And there were all these articles about the she session and how, you know, work was so designed so poorly for women and they were having trouble getting funding for their businesses. But what I was also seeing in all of my interviews and in all the stories that I was writing was women were actually, yeah, maybe they were leaving the workforce, but they were actually.

Seeing the problems left by societies, you know, ignoring of these problems, and they were doing the work to solve them. And so whether it was, again, like a personal drive or personal experience that led them there, they were taking all the setbacks of, you know, society, of their personal lives, of their careers, of their business, and they were building something that was even better than whatever they set out to create when they started their careers. And I just kept seeing these patterns over and over and over. And I said, why does this keep happening? Because it was more than just, oh, we have to learn from our mistakes, and that's growth. Or it wasn't like post traumatic growth. There's a ton of research on that. But a setback's not always a trauma. It can be smaller than that. It's just a setback is defined as a reversal in progress. And so it's when you've been working towards something in a forward motion and you are unexpectedly bumped backwards through your own fault, through someone else's fault, through, you know, unforeseen circumstances. And so I just kept seeing this happening over and over and over. And also, people had such pride when they talked about how they pulled themselves up after a setback.

So that's my answer of why I wrote the book. And that is absolutely true. What I didn't realize until years later, which again, is why I eventually really dug into this established phase, which is phase one of the setback cycle is so many of us sleepwalk into setbacks without even realizing it. And sometimes it takes weeks, months, years, decades to look back and say, wow, that was a setback and I ignored it or I tried to push my way through it. And that's exactly what happened to me in 20, 20, 18 when I was working at a marketing firm that glorified, you know, we had a big culture of, like, drinking and happy hours and, oh, my God, the boozy lunches. Like, that was the big. It was like 2018, but like mad Men. It was, like, very weird. It was a very old school, very. It was fun. I mean, I liked it, but that was the culture. And when I got pregnant, I could no longer participate in that culture. And I was very nervous about it. But I was also naively kind of like, well, everyone here is very welcoming and, you know, evolved, and they will be very supportive of my foray into working motherhood. And they were. They were on the surface. But deep down, all of a sudden, I'm not getting invited to the boozy lunches. I go off, I have my maternity leave. When I come back, my workload is significantly reduced. I try to put all my energy back into work, the place I had always put it. And it's sort of like, rejected. I'm cuddled. I'm told, oh, let someone else handle that. Give them an opportunity now. And I kind of struggled to find my place after I came back from maternity leave. And again, it started when I was pregnant. But, you know, this. This workplace that again, like, it's like women founded. We're run by mothers. We have all these mothers. Well, like, they weren't very welcoming of mothers, but once you dug below the surface and so.

What every mother needs when they come back is different. I think their instinct was to coddle me and sort of put. Reduce my workload. And I think that is great for some people, but that's not what I wanted, and I didn't have a say. So that was my biggest realization as I was writing this book. You know, I kept thinking, okay, well, this is a gift. I have less responsibility at work. That's nice. I have an infant at home. I should take this as a gift. So many people have the opposite, and that's. That's so much harder. So many people have it worse. Or some people experience actual pregnancy discrimination. You know, this isn't like that level. So. So I'm okay. This is okay, but it wasn't okay. You know, it's not what I personally wanted. And so I think that really kind of goes to. That speaks to the fact that one person's experience could be another person's setback. Someone who craves a smaller workload upon returning from maternity leave should be able to have that. And that would be such a gift for someone. For me, I wanted to come back I wanted to use the part of my brain I didn't use when I was on maternity leave. You know what I mean? And so. And as you know, my story is, well, when you sideline an ambitious woman, what happens? She directs her ambition elsewhere. And so it's not a coincidence that my freelance writing career took off the same year I had my daughter. I wasn't valued or, you know, being sort of challenged there, so I went somewhere else. And I maintained this full time employment with the freelance writing, got a book deal over the course of the next few years. And it was wonderful. I loved it. And then eventually I got laid off from that job. And that layoff, that wasn't a setback. That was my green light to go start my own business, something I had always wanted to do. And also to be able to focus more on the book and on the book marketing.

So there's this fine line as an enneagram, too, between.

Recognizing that, yes, you wanted more responsibility, you want to make your worth known. Right. That's one of the things as an enneagram too, feeling loved and appreciated. Unfortunately, it comes at the form of relying on other people to help you validate that, right?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. So there's this healthy part of you that, yes, your gifts are that, like, you're brilliant, you. You're unmatched in that as an enneagram too. And just you as a human, like, you're amazing. But there's also this fine line of the dysfunction in believing that your worth is only when you're doing for other people.

Absolutely. Oh, that. That's me.

Yeah. And so like having the discernment, you know, I'm similar in like the flex. Like, am I doing this because I want to prove to the world how strong I am, or is this actually the time to use that gift of strength? The other thing that I see and hear a lot in the work that I do, and you as a two especially I hear this mostly from twos, is, well, other people have it worse. And you minimize or.

Devalue your own needs that you are entitled to have. And that is more than okay to have. How has being an enneagram 2 and understanding and voicing that you have needs and not judging them, this will be your constant evolution as a 2 for sure. Is like you never. You're like, you're the first to say, what can I do to help you? What you know, and you never would judge me for saying, you know, I could really use help here.

No, I would be happy to help.

You.

Would salivate.

Right, of course.

So why do you believe that that's not okay for you or that other people have it worse, or that somebody that wants to help you should help somebody else who has it worse?

I don't know why I believe that. I mean, I think, like.

I think, look, I have a great life. I at the time had a really great job in so many ways. And.

I had friends around me who were struggling so much with their jobs. They would like, they had been fired and laid off multiple times. They had to like, jump around. They had toxic work environments. And like, yeah, looking back, maybe I had a little bit of that, but like, it really wasn't that bad. It was like a pretty good gig for a long time. And so it really genuinely. I don't know why I'm like this, but genuinely did seem like other people had it worse. There were definitely friends. Oh my God. I brought a friend to a work event once and she looked at me and said, these people are toxic. I don't know what's wrong with you. And these are people I liked and I adored and I hung out with all the time. And know other people can kind of see your situation much more clearly than you can see it. And I stayed at that job for like many more years after she pointed that out. But it's. It's very clear to others what is not always clear to you. And I, I genuinely just believed that others had it worse. And. But what I did was, you know, when I kind of realized that I was in the self doubt mode, the self consciousness mode, perhaps I did turn to an outlet where I could help other people. You know, I. I had always had this freelance writing thing in the background. I. I wrote for a bunch of different publications. But I did go all in on it. Not only because it was a way to sure help people give voice to people who wanted their stories told, but also for me to draw inspiration from other stuff that people were doing. Incredible projects and ventures and businesses that people were building. Like, I wanted to learn from them. And, and yeah, looking back, maybe I wanted to learn from them because I wasn't getting fulfillment, you know, in my career at that time. But, yeah, I think that's true. And also other people had it worse. Like, it's all true.

Yeah, I love. I remember the other day when we were chatting and we were talking about the evolution of growth for an enneagram2 and that need, like all my Enneagram Twos need to hear this right now. Giving you full permission to be a Little more self absorbed and to be more self focused. And it doesn't make you uncaring, unkind, selfish, any of those things. And listening to your setback cycle, you know, you face the setback, you're moving through it. And the fact that your freelance career took off, it's a very four like thing to do, which is, you know, the growth number of the enneagram too. Doing things that you want to do, even though it's hard and uncomfortable and not like your natural go to like this cute little freelance thing that you had riding in the background was actually the thing that was saying, yo, yo, lady.

Yeah. And it ended up being the life raft in so many ways. I mean, I could get into details of that, but it ended up being the absolute life raft when I needed it.

Well, let's talk about your setback cycle with that whole thing because, you know, with the book, you know, you take people through a process, which I'm obsessed with. So let's use your kind of cycle with this very thing to kind of explain, you know, the path process.

Yeah. What I do at the end of each story. So this, the book has 14 stories of different leaders and people who went through the setback cycle. And so, you know, if you're a person that just wants to turn to the book for inspirational stories and to like, kind of understand what a setback might be, should you experience one. There's that.

Yeah.

And then of course, there's the framework and the exercises and the interviews with psychologists and executive coaches to give you that, you know, background if you, if you are a person who like, is in a setback and you want to work through it. So we got a little bit of both. And what I do in those stories of the leaders is I have a little recap at the end of their story that shows how they worked through each of the four phases of the setback cycle. Because I want to make it really clear that, yes, this is lovely storytelling, but this is how they worked through the cycle. And so there is a recap and I share my story, which, by the way, again, back to me being a two. Yeah. Every time I heard from an editor or someone who was trying to help me make this book better, it was always, where's your voice? Where's your voice? I want to. I didn't want to put my story in there again. I thought everyone else's stories were so much more fascinating. I still do think that. But everyone. Everyone's feedback was always the same. Where's your voice? Put your voice in there. I want to hear more from Amy. And so I ended up putting my story as, you know, a little part of a chapter. And I do have the recap of my story and how I worked through the cycle. And so my establishment. So there's four phases of the setback cycle. We have establish, which is acknowledging that you're in one, which, again, you might not realize you're in a setback until you're like, all the way through the cycle, all the way into another phase. That's fine. That's what happens, especially for those of us who accidentally sleepwalk into setbacks. So establish as phase one. Phase two is embrace. That's when you have to really get into it and feel the feelings and deal with the reality of your situation and make those connections and be a little introspective and think, why is this impacting me so much? Why was I so rattled when I came back from maternity leave and my role was diminished? Where had I felt that before? To me, I think it was back to that self consciousness around intelligence. Oh, they don't think I'm capable of running the businesses that I built anymore. Maybe it's because I'm a mom. Maybe it's because they think I'm not good enough. And, oh, good, this is an opportunity to just let other people do it. And we can push her out now. You know, like, all the. All the fears and all the insecurities just got dredged up. But I. I did. Once I realized what was going on, I did embrace it. And I thought about why that was happening. And, yeah, maybe I sought validation elsewhere by publishing articles publicly and, you know, all the things that that led to. But I. I think that I really had to take stock of my situation and do all the. The work. I mean, I have a great therapist. She is also quoted in the book. So, yes, I interviewed my own therapist to help me get through my own embrace phase. But she's fantastic.

I did. Yeah. Amazing.

My therapy went forward.

Oh, my God. That's so funny.

All right.

That's amazing.

What's part three?

The third phase is my favorite. It is the explore phase. It's when you get to go try out new things. And it's also when you climb out of the embrace phase and you don't have to do all the introspection anymore. Like, you have the data. You have the data. Like, if you think of it from, like, a technology building standpoint, it's like, okay, we had an issue. We have to evaluate what happened, and now we get to go do some AB testing, to figure out what the best path forward is. And so the testing phase, the exploration phase, is really fun. So, like, for example, if you get laid off from your job, you can think, okay, do I want to just go find a similar job? Is this an opportunity to explore this thing? I always thought I would go into a new industry, a new role, and, you know, is this time for a pivot, or do I want to just kind of continue on the path I was on? It's a nice moment to just try to do new things without committing to any one thing. And I think that's why it's my favorite. You also get to do fun things, like, you rely on your community. There's. I have these exercises in the book that help you try to sort of, like, plot the different stars in your constellation to make new connections to other people who you might not otherwise have thought to reach out to. And you identify your superpowers. What are you good at? What are you motivated by? It's. It's like a really fun phase. The final phase is emerge. So this is your phoenix moment. You rise from the ashes, you spread your wings. Like all the analogies, right? The emerge phase can be a little hard, though, because when you have worked through. Through the setback cycle, you have established what you're in. You have done all this work, all this introspection, all this data collection, then you've explored and you've tested all these new things. That is really exhausting, that is really tiring sometimes. And even when you're like, okay, this is where I'm gonna go, and you have decided what your path forward is, you have absolute clarity. Everything usually doesn't work this beautifully. But, like, you figure out what you're going to do next, right? The best laid plans, actually putting one foot in front of the other and stepping into action can be so hard, so hard. And so emerge is great, but it's when you have to go get into action, and there's all kinds of things that can get in your way at that point.

But let's talk about that, because, ironically, emerge is my word for 2024.

Oh, how interesting.

Yes. And, you know, I can see very clearly, like, my whole cycle that I've been through, and it's been a long one, and, you know, I'm here for it, and I embrace the whole process of it, and I know, like, I am ready to emerge. Like, it is happening, and it is very hard. What makes the emerge part hard and what are some things to help Me and other people listening when we know with all our being that we have honored every step of the cycle. I honestly, I have not tried to rush this process by any means. And honestly, instead of emerging, I want to go back into the cocoon.

That is how everyone feels at this stage. You have worked so hard.

Why is it so hard and scary?

Because you have exerted so much mental energy to get to this point. You've probably exerted some physical energy too.

And this is where, you know, it's. It's time for the rubber to hit the road and for you to now take all this action that you've been planning. However, again, that mental energy is draining. The brain is an expensive organ. It is expensive, and you have just spent a lot on. On it, right? And so a lot of people, they just say, you know what? Maybe not today. Maybe I'm just gonna go back to bed. Maybe tomorrow. It's really hard. And so what you can do to get through it is, well, there's two different things. Number one is the small step decision making, right? What small step? What. What small steps can you take to get yourself off the couch? I mean, I have. I have a friend, Molly Beck. She's wonderful, and she breaks things down into such small steps that she writes out her to do list for a daunting task. That's like, open your Google Doc.

I love that.

Like. Like, open your Gmail. Like, it's like she breaks it down. So think of what the first step is to your emerge and break it down even further from there. 20 steps to get to that first step, right? Make it as small and tangible as you possibly can, because then it's like, okay, so if you're laying on the couch, put one foot down, put the other foot down, sit up, and every single thing you do, just check it off the list because you will feel like you are making progress. I have. I'm obviously in major book marketing mode right now, and I have been for the past month, and I will be for the next two months. And it's, you know, to me, it's draining. And like you said, as a two, asking for help is the most uncomfortable thing I have ever had to do. I like helping. I like offering. I hate asking. I hate it. And I've obviously had to get a little more comfortable with it because this is the moment to ask, right? Can you share my book? Can you do this? Can you have me on your podcast? Thank you, Tracy. And so I'm doing all these things, which is deeply uncomfortable for me, but What I'm doing in order to kind of like nudge myself into this space.

I make myself do three things every day to ask for something, and whether that is just like following up with someone who agreed to help me, I, I set it up as like, I'll write three emails, but that could also be, you know, a text, a phone call, a follow up, putting a advanced reader copy in the mail. That can be one thing for me. So as long as I do three things every day that work towards, I'll call it like my book marketing world, I feel good about myself. And that's probably way less than other people do, but it's, it's the max that I can do to make myself feel like I have accomplished something. I have worked toward this thing and, and like that's, that's the level I can take it to.

It's sustainable for sustainable.

It makes me feel good, makes me feel like I've done something. And you know what? Some days I do more than three.

Yeah, but three. Because this whole emerge thing, like in historically, in the past, that's my favorite part. Because it's the rise, right? It's the rise. However, I think when we honor every step of this process in true authenticity and don't rush the process, I think this emerge is the most.

Transparent and raw. Like, I have never felt more raw in my life. And so where I usually come blazing out and emerge like, this is more of a. This is really, really hard.

Especially if you're gonna do something different or you're gonna do something in a different way than how you've approached it in the past. It's very hard. You're in an fft, right? It's so hard. So, yeah, it's exhausting. So give yourself grace. I mean, you have to give yourself grace. The other thing, another exercise, I don't know if you've heard of this one, but this always helps.

If you're really struggling to sort of take that action. Is the have, do, be method. And so you pick a point in the future, whether it's a month, a year, maybe five years, and you answer three questions. What do I want to have? What do I want to do? How. How do I want to be spending my time? What do I want to be doing at this future moment in time, and who do I want to be?

And that can be your driver of how you move forward. And so we were talking earlier about how I have to push myself to really get the word out about this book because I think it's going to Help so many people. I know it has already helped so many people. Those who have read it, those who have, you know, absorbed pieces of it, those who, you know, listened to my talk at that conference. Like a lot of people came up to me and shared so many wonderful things about how it transformed the way they thought about their own lives and their experiences. And so I know this book is going to help people. And so that's my North Star. I'm like, I need to ask for the help now because if nobody knows about this, they're never going to read it. And then they're not really going to get the perspective I'm hoping to help them get so that they can reframe their own life experiences in this way that can be so incredibly transformative. When my agent took me on as her client, she was like, I don't care what size advance you get. Like, this book is going to change lives. I want this book in the world. I was like, you're amazing. You're my agent. And she is incredible. But that's the kind of.

That's why I move forward. That's why I get off the couch. That's why I make those three outreaches every day. Even though it is a lot, it.

Is, I get it. The work that I do too, when I don't want to, I think of that. I know how impactful, like my own process has been for me. You know, multiply that by hundreds of thousands and millions. Like I, I'm not gonna. But it's still, like you said, really, really challenging.

Kind of one of the things I want to end with is like in this space, personal development space, there are a lot of people that want to do the work in air quotes. Right. Like, because they want to like approach it like a. Check that box. So if I want this, I have to do this. So check. Check. I did some inner child stuff. Check. I overcame.

Check.

I, you know, all the things. And the thing about a cycle is that it does happen again.

Yeah.

And not all cycles are bad. And just because it a setback happens again doesn't mean you didn't do a good enough job.

Yep.

Before.

Yeah.

As somebody who has been through plenty of setbacks and see the beauty of them on the other side of it, even though I still don't enjoy them. How do you set people up to understand? Like in the book. And you guys, you need to go get the book and pre order it right freaking now. You can go to the setback cycle.com. you can find it. All the places but if you want to support like the, the locals and the, the smaller, you know, venues that sell books, please do that first. But if you're an Amazon girl or guy, then go do that. Just buy the damn book because it will help you. So how do you frame this for people? And it's easier said than done. It's easy to understand this, but when it's happening, it feels like a shit show.

Yep.

The fact that the cycle will continue and, and how do you plan for, navigate and embrace that the cycle is.

Not going to look the same every time. And identifying when you have gone through the cycle and when you've emerged from it is going to help you the next time you find yourself in the setback cycle. Because once you recognize it, you've read the book, you have the tools, you know how to work through it. So whether it's a big life changing one or a small, tiny one, you might be able to say like, oh my God, I'm sleepwalking into a setback. I better, you know, figure out what I'm going to do about it. Or I better embrace and try to understand, like why I'm in this place. It's going to get you to the answers faster. The setback cycle is not a circle. All the phases are not built the same. It does not go round and round. It is like a squiggly S curve that has been drawn by like a toddler who is learning to write for the first time. Your dips and turns and curves and swirls are going to look different every phase and every setback. But the key is understanding why it happens, the psychology behind it, and, you know, adapting the tools that are going to help you work through it. And I really do think once you recognize how you've gone through the cycle and other moments in your life, which you have, if you are human, you're going to be able to tackle them more, you know, with more clarity and a better sense of purpose the next time you encounter one.

I use this example a lot. Like I'm somebody who loves Home Depot and all the tools, like, I go in and I salivate. I love them. And there have been times I've bought them just because I know they do some really cool. But in unless I practice using them or really know what they're good at, they're just collecting dust in my garage and my she, she. Right. And a book like this is such a power tool.

Yes, it is.

You have to build this muscle and get used to using this tool. And I never recommend Learning how to use tools in the middle of a full blown freaking crisis.

No.

Right. Because it does. Like the lessons don't always stick or we don't. Like, it's almost like I don't even know how I got through that. So, you know, I did it the hard way. I don't recommend it, but just like anything, we have to build the muscles so that when shit does hit the fan and a setback does come, knock, knock, knocking on your door. You know, you're armed with the best tools and this book is such a beautiful tool. Amy, I love you. I am so grateful for you showing up in my life and oh my God, feelings mutual.

I love you so much. You have taught me so much about the Enneagram. I wish I had met you before I wrote the book because you would be in it in the second book. So. Yeah.

So what is some final thoughts on somebody that I know has already hit, like add to cart? Buy the book. What is your wish for them in taking your beautiful wisdom and life experience moving forward?

Don't try to rush through the tough stuff. Embrace the messy middle. Even though it sucks while you're in it, don't ignore it. Because your setback, even when they're really, really shitty, can be a green light. So go find your green light even when you're in the thick of it.

Love that you guys go to the setback cycle.com, go get your book right now. You know I don't ever recommend anything unless I love it and I love her and I love her message and I love her book. So please go get it right now and then cross crack it open, read it and and start putting that process to work in your life so that you can find your green light and make the impact that you're made to in this lifetime. Amy, I love you. I appreciate you and thanks for coming on.

I appreciate you so much. Thank you so much. This was wonderful. You are wonderful.

Oh, I appreciate you.

I'm so happy you enjoyed the lead with the Enneagram podcast. Please help us spread the word about this show and the Enneagram by sharing it with a friend and leaving a written Apple podcast review. If you have any follow up questions to this episode, you can DM me on Instagram at tracyomalley. You can also find additional resources on my website@traceeomalley.com I'm so excited to lead you into the next level of your life.