E274: Is it Normal to Not Orgasm During Sex? We Got Attacked for Talking About This

And if you are somebody who has ever or currently feels broken because you're not feeling the ultimate sensation, you're not having orgasms from penetration alone, like, I will keep standing up for you and keep telling you until I am blue in the face that it is normal and you are not broken and we are here for you. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talk podcast. HelloTalks Podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa.

And Xander Marin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience.

And I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We're doing something a little different today because I recently made a lot of people on the internet really, really mad in a way that I have never experienced before.

In a way that you were not expecting.

Yeah, absolutely not expecting. So I wanted us to make this podcast episode to clear the air, to be able to talk about what happened, talk about how I really feel, address these criticisms and complaints, and really like have this big— this bigger or longer form format to be able to talk about it. I addressed it a little bit on social media when it first happened, but it's so hard on social. Like I tried to put it in our stories, but you get cut off and—

Well, and when you put it in your stories, it's like 10% of your audience sees it. Like 10% of your followers. People that would like to see it, it's just not going to be shown to them. And then it expires after 24 hours. So like, you know, even if you refer to it later, they can't go back and find it. So, you know, it's challenging to reach everyone that actually wants to hear something.

Okay, so let's just get right into it.

Yeah, what the hell happened?

I know, I don't want to spend like 10 minutes teasing.

Or we could tease it for, you know, half the episode. That would be a great way to keep people. Yeah, yeah, let's edge the audience. They would be really mad at me. You wouldn't.

You wouldn't believe how mad they were at me. Okay, so the original reel, it was actually a repost. We sometimes repost like our most popular content because like you just said, when you put something on social media, just a tiny fraction of your people see it. So this was actually originally a reel that was from several years ago that we were reposting.

Did you re— but you re-recorded it, right?

No.

Oh, you didn't. Okay.

No, it was just straight up repost. Yeah, you can see like my hair is totally different in it.

Wow. All right. Now everyone's seen how the sausage is made on Instagram.

So the original reel was a question that a woman had sent in, actually when we do our Ask Us Anything days on Instagram, like people will send in questions. And so she had sent us in this question about her enjoyment of intercourse. And she'd basically said like, I enjoy having intercourse with my husband, it's a good time, but I'm never orgasming from it. And I feel like something's wrong with me. I must be broken in some way. Is this normal? It's actually part of our whole like, is this normal series that we do on Instagram. And so I wanna read to you, I went and grabbed the transcript of like what I said in the reel. So what I said is, it is very normal and very common to not be able to feel a whole lot when he's inside of you. The most sensitive part of our body as women is the clitoris. This is also another reason why I wanted to address this on the podcast because I can't even fucking say clitoris. Penis, sex, vagina on Instagram, and it drives me freaking nuts. So now I can just like fully say it uncensored. Okay, the most—

Let's just say it a couple of times. Penis, vagina, clitoris.

Fuck, fuck, fuck. Now we're gonna get the explicit warning on this episode. I think we always get the explicit warning on ours.

You pretty much always swear, so we do.

Damn it. Okay, so the most sensitive part of our body is the clitoris. It has 8,000 to 10,000 different nerve endings. You can compare that to the entire penis, which has like 2,000 to 3,000 nerve endings. Wah, wah, wah. Yeah, so we feel, you know, there's a lot more sensitivity in our clitoris. The vagina actually has so few nerve endings, there's not even a proper scientific tally. I regularly go searching for this to see like, hey, has anybody done some new research? Have we counted the nerve endings in the vagina? There still is not a proper scientific tally. So I often make this funny, like, jokey comparison that from a nerve-ending standpoint, Intercourse for a woman is like playing with a man's balls. If you are a listener of the Pillow Talks podcast, you have almost certainly heard me make this comparison before. Like, I just think it's like, you know, Xander and I are really goofy, lighthearted people. We like making silly jokes out of things. So I'm like, yeah, this is like a funny thing. Like, sure, playing with someone's balls, that it just is such an instant visceral understanding. You're like, yeah, okay, that might be fun. That might be enjoyable. It would feel good. But like, it's certainly not anywhere near enough stimulation to lead you to orgasm.

Yeah. So like, Yeah. And let me, since we have the time for it, let me get real clear on at least what that's like for me and what I think that is probably like for most men. So if you were to start playing with my balls, that would probably be fairly exciting because I associate ball play with sex and sexual things starting to happen. Fairly soon, that excited feeling that I had would probably start to fade because I'm not actually getting the stimulation of the part that is going to feel really good. Now, if in some weird theoretical universe we were somehow having sex where sex looked like Vanessa getting her clitoris stimulated somehow by my balls, like the way that that would work physically doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but let's just set reality aside for a second and say that somehow She's able to stimulate her clitoris on my balls. Yeah, that might feel nice to me for a moment. But then once we kept going, and once I started seeing, wow, this is getting better and better for Vanessa. She's moaning, she's squirming around, she's starting to get closer and closer to orgasm. And then I compare that to my experience where I'm like, okay, this was nice for a second. I thought that maybe something else was going to start happening soon, and it never did. And, um, wow, like, she's really enjoying this. And now I'm just kind of sitting here along for the ride. Like, I guess this is nice that she's enjoying herself. But when I compare my experience to her experience, her evolving experience, which is just getting better and better and better, Mm-hmm. I would probably describe that experience as, okay, yeah, that was like nice for a second. And it kind of got me interested in More, and then it was nice to be there with you, but relative to what happened to you, I didn't really feel very much.

Yeah. So going back to the reel, like I ended it with, the bottom line is if you're not feeling a ton during intercourse, that's very normal and common, but there actually are ways to make sure that you do feel more. So when we had originally posted this reel, we just got a ton of comments from women saying like, I had no idea. This made me feel so normal. I've been thinking I was Thank you for sharing this. And it was like this really feel-good experience. And I remember like talking to women in the comments and just saying, you know, like, I've experienced this too. I'll share more about my story in a little bit. But it was just like a really positively received reel. So when we reposted it the second time recently, I was just kind of expecting the same sort of reaction. And it actually didn't pop off as much as it did the first time. We only repost things if they like really go viral where we're like, oh, we want, you know, people clearly like this. liked that, let's make sure more people see it. And it didn't pop off that much the second time. So I was like, oh, okay, I guess it just like didn't really quite land the same way this time around. So I go about my life. A couple of weeks go by and I am scrolling my personal Instagram. I'm doing a little bit of doom scrolling, to be totally honest.

Uh-oh.

No, it was just like one of those days where I was just sucked into the phone and just like scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll and spending way too much time. I should have done something, you know, better with my time. But I was just like, stuck in it. So I'm scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, and a reel pops up on my screen and I see that picture of me from the reel in the corner. And it's like one of those stitched reels where this woman is responding to it. And this, so I'm like, oh, interesting, cool. So I start watching for a second. So talk about it. And this woman ripped me to shreds. She was going on and on about like, I can't believe this woman and this ridiculous reel. And she's so fucking stupid. She has no fucking clue what she's talking about. And I'm gonna give it to you straight. Like, you should not be feeling completely numb during intercourse. And I can't believe she said that you should not have any sort of relationship with your vagina. Da da da da. And here's how the vagina actually works. And the clitoris is bullshit.

Blah blah blah.

And I was just like, whoa, okay. So two things struck me in that moment. The first was, I was like, I am so confused about this because the reel that she seems to be responding to. is not what I said in the actual reel. So she's like getting really upset about stuff that I'm like, I'm not arguing that.

Oh, like about being numb when you didn't even say the word numb?

Yeah, I'll get into like all the specifics in just a minute. So there's that part of it. And then the other thing is her tone and attitude were so Nasty. I couldn't believe it. I just like— I don't know how to describe this, but like, I've, I've never left a negative comment on somebody's content on Instagram. And maybe it's because I'm a creator and like I understand the vulnerability that it requires to like show up and share on social media.

Well, this woman's a creator too, so.

Yeah, well, she clearly doesn't get it. You know, I've seen tons of content that I disagree with. I've seen tons of content that I straight up hate. But like, it's just not in me. Maybe it's just the kind of person I am. Like, it's just not in me to spend time or energy being negative and like leaving negative or nasty comments. I'm just like, I don't know.

You've got better things to do with your time.

I've got a happy life. I have better things to do with my time, even though sometimes I do doom scroll. Like, I don't really care.

Yeah, but you were scrolling. You weren't doom commenting. Like, oh, let me just talk shit to people. Yeah.

So I just like, yeah, I can't understand somebody taking so much time out of their day to make this like incredibly mean reel. And like also the other thing is, it's one thing to disagree with somebody, but like it's another thing to be mean, cruel, hurtful, like negative about it too.

And to be coming from the attitude of this person has no fucking idea what they're Yeah. Talking about. And it's like, well, clearly you have no idea what you're talking about because you're responding to something that is completely different from what was actually said.

Yeah. So I was just like, okay, that was super weird. I don't know what to do with that. Like, it's not even worth it to me. Like, I'm not going to leave a comment for her and try to argue with her. Like, she's clearly got such an extreme view of me that like there's no way I'm going to change her mind. And that is hard to do. That is really freaking hard to do. And maybe I'll talk a little bit later about like, just what it's like to try to share, you know, your opinions on social media. But I was like, okay, whatever. So I go back to scrolling. I get like 3 more reels in. And then I see another reel from this woman who starts the reel like, as a well-fucked woman, I'm here to tell you that— And I just knew I was like, she's talking about me. Because she started talking about like, this really big creator recently put out a reel about da da da da da. And I like— she didn't have— it wasn't stitched. She didn't mention me by name or anything. Maybe I am being vain. Maybe it's one of those like, bet you think this reel is about you.

Ooh, you got a special sneak peek into Vanessa's voice.

Into my terrible singing voice.

That was, that was, that was good. We're gonna get comments being like, I don't know what you're talking about, Xander. Vanessa's voice is pretty good.

It's It's awful, but thank you. So I'm like, oh my God, I'm pretty sure she's talking about that reel as well. So then I think, what the hell happened to this reel? Because last I checked, it was like kind of flopping. There wasn't a lot.

You usually got the vast majority of your views within the first 48 to 72 hours.

Not ours, actually. We usually end up having like a long tail. Anyways, so I go back to the reel and I see that it's like at over a million views. I think it was like 1.8 or something like that, and I was like, uh-oh.

Uh-oh.

And so I click on the comments and I sort them by newest comments first, and my heart sank. I gotta say, I have had a business social media account for over 10 years. I think the kind of person I am, I have a pretty thick skin. Normally. And being on social media for over a decade has thickened it up. I've got some elephant skin at this point. Like, I've had everything said about me. I've had lots of, you know, negative comments. I'm used to it. I know how to take this stuff with a grain of salt. Like, I have whole systems and processes for how I manage this energy. But I was not prepared for what I saw. These— there were probably, probably 100 comments and they were the meanest, nastiest, most aggressive, angry, so angry. Like these were the most intense comments that we have, I think, ever gotten on a post.

Mmhmm.

The just sheer magnitude of it. was wild. So I just started deleting them. And now I actually kind of regret it. I wish I had taken some screenshots of some of them. But like, my nervous system was just, like, my heart was racing. I have not had that experience in a very long time. But like, I could feel all of that anger that was directed at me, like, feel it through the screen. And my immediate reaction was just like, I just gotta get rid of all this.

Nope.

I think we have a, we have a really interesting view about people disagreeing with us. Like, I think disagreement is really healthy. I think there is no advice that applies to every single person. I think diversity of experiences is what makes things like interesting and unique. I personally am always trying to learn. I like exposing myself to different viewpoints. I like keeping my mind open. I like changing my mind. I like learning. And I'm really proud of that. I'm proud of those qualities that I have. I think that makes me a really good sex therapist because I'm willing to engage in debate, change my mind, learn new things. That's really important to me. So when people disagree with us or when they present different opinions or different experiences, I think we're really open to that.

Mm-hmm.

So we're not like— our social media is not a place where if you disagree with us, you're blocked and banned forever. We have debates with people. We've changed our minds about things. But we do have, like, one of our boundaries is if you're going to be cruel or disrespectful, like, we're not going to give you any of our energy or attention. So we just block and, you know, delete those comments, or our team usually takes care of it before we even see it. So my instinct was just like, delete, delete, delete, delete, delete. I gotta, like, I gotta get this out of here because this is so intense, and it's like not, you know, this is not content that we're going to engage with. But I really, I regret that now. I wish that I had taken a screenshot of some of them so that I could like share them with you here so you guys could like see exactly what was said instead of just, you know, me having to kind of recount it. But basically like the main criticism was these people were saying like they were, they were saying that I had said that it's normal for the vagina to be numb. And that can still like, it confuses me so much because not one single time in that whole reel, I read you the transcript of what I, I never said the word numb. I never said it's normal to feel numb because it's not. It's absolutely not normal to feel completely numb, zero sensation.

I feel like a lot of people would like to be able to feel numb during childbirth in their vagina.

Yeah.

And we go through great pains to give people epidurals that still don't do the job of making you totally numb.

So that was the main criticism is like you're telling women that it's okay for them to feel completely numb or feel zero sensation Or also, like some women were saying, you're telling women it's okay to feel pain or discomfort. And I was like, there's nothing in this reel, the question or my response, that was at all about pain or discomfort. So I really didn't understand that. The other major piece of criticism was that they were interpreting it as me saying, like, women, like, we should have no relationship with our vaginas. Like, it's just about the clitoris and the vagina is just like some terrible part of our body that we should just ignore and disconnect with and be dissociated from, which again, like, I never said I don't believe that whatsoever. Like, anyone who watches my content for more than like one day, if you ask them, do you think Vanessa thinks you should have zero relationship with your vagina? Like, you would say no.

I mean, that's insane. All you need to do is— I mean, I can tell you, if you were to purchase Finishing School, our female orgasm course, and open it up, there is a lot of talk about getting to know and getting to love your vagina and your clitoris, all of your genitalia. Um, that is, you know, that is something that most people, most women in this country grow up not having a very good relationship with, with their genitals at all because of the way that we socialize people, the way that we talk about it. They're gross. They're icky. Good girls don't touch that. Good girls don't explore that, right? So, so much of what we talk about is exactly that, is creating a positive relationship with your clitoris and your vagina and your vulva as well. And, you know, getting to know it, getting to love it. God, it's so sad.

I swear on my life, I did not plan this, but I am wearing my brand new Quince cardigan, and I get to talk about Quince. I'm so excited. This is their 100% organic cotton crop top. cardigan in heather brown. I think it is so cute. I was so excited when it came in. It's super soft, really cozy. I've been trying to wear more natural fibers and to get 100% organic. And this was $49.

Damn.

Such a good price for organic cotton. We love Quince. They have so many high-quality pieces for super affordable prices and they have It is mind-blowing the number of different categories they have. There's clothing, but there's accessories, shoes, stuff for your home, linens, towels, kids' stuff, furniture, caviar. It's crazy the amount of stuff that they have. But definitely think you should check out this cardigan. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com/pillow for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/pillow for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/pillow. All right, a little personal story time here. Years ago, Xander sadly discovered that he is one of millions of Americans that involuntarily clench their teeth and grind their teeth at night, and he had some pretty serious dental repercussions as a result of it. Things that he's still to this day addressing.

Sure did.

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Whoa.

Yeah, like went so far as to say like, you're telling women we should just endure— actually, the theme of like enduring sex, like sex that you don't want, sex that's painful, or sex that's uncomfortable, that was actually a very common response. And there were maybe like 4 or 5 specific comments that said you are promoting raping women.

I don't even understand why, because what if somehow you had said, oh yeah, it's totally normal for your vagina to be numb, so therefore You can handle it if someone just go— like—

I don't— I really don't understand how that got there. But like, to me, that is just— it doesn't get darker than that. Like, the idea of somebody promoting rape and assault of women is so horrifying, I can't even put it into words. But like, especially someone like me who has devoted my life To wanting people to have safer, happier, healthier, more joyful, respectful, loving relationships with sex, to be accused of promoting rape and assault is just like— like, there are very few things that you could accuse me of that would hurt more.

Well, yeah, I mean, unbeknownst to all these people, we literally have a free course for survivors of sexual assault about reclaiming their sex life.

Yeah, I mean, it's something like— I've worked with so many survivors in my career. We'll put the link to that in the show notes.

It used to be something that we charged for a small amount back in the day, and then like a number of years ago we're like, this should just be free. Like everything.

Yeah, everything.

Why are we charging money for this?

Yeah, no, we only had it for sale for like a very short period of time, and then it was like, no, no, no, we got to give this away. Um, so we'll put the link to the show notes to go check that out, but I think you can just go straight to vmtherapy.com/ We have a ton of free guides, and it's down at the bottom.

I think it's at the bottom of that free page.

Okay, so yes, this was— it was really, really, really fucking dark and hard to read and just awful. I actually left one of the comments about rape up because that— I was just like, I don't know, there was something about that that I was like, I just— I don't know. So what else? Like, what also was really upsetting about these comments was that the majority of them appeared to be from women. Like, it was either, you know, a woman's name in the username or like an obvious, you know, profile photo of a woman. Like, the vast majority of them were women, and a lot of them were from women either in this field somehow or an adjacent field. There were pelvic floor physical therapists, there were sex educators, sex coaches, Women empowerment coaches, tantra teachers. So it's like, we're all trying to help women. We're all kind of in this related field. And it just boggled my mind that my peers would be saying this.

Well, I mean, there's, you know, different people take different strategies on social media. And a A definite strategy is be, you know, is create conflict and tear someone down. And, you know, that's one way to go viral. And so, you know, it's like, and in this case, it just seemed like, you know, there was like one take was made on what you said, which was a totally misinformed, very kind of like a take that misunderstood what it was that you were talking about. And then there were takes on that take and takes on takes on takes. And at that point, it's like, you're just playing fucking telephone. Like, did anybody who responded, did they even watch the original video and be like, huh, what that other person said about them, does that even make sense?

Yeah.

And then it's just like, oh cool, we're all going in on this person. Like, oh, let me get a piece of that, piece of that virality pie.

I mean, I honestly think that it just like a mob mentality developed in the comments. Like a couple of people started leaving comments and then it just turned into this pile-on and like the anger in And all the comments just fueled more and more people to be, like, more and more angry. But yeah, like, for somebody to be a peer— first, I'm still really confused about how they would so drastically misinterpret the reel. And then 2, I— maybe this is me being naive and just hoping for too much from humanity, but I can't understand not asking, like, a clarifying question.

Yeah.

You know, we've had people before who have said things like, hey, it sounds to me like you're saying XYZ in the reel. I don't think that you would say that. Is that actually what you mean? And there have been times where we'll like jump back in and be like, oh, no, no, no, we actually meant ABC. Interesting that it like came across as XYZ. But like, you know, I think it's okay to ask a clarifying question. It's also okay to disagree. If someone wanted to disagree with that, that's fine. But like to be so nasty in the disagreement Like, it doesn't make sense to me. Because, you know, the messages, it was not just, you know, ripping apart the, like, you said numb and no relationship with our vagina, but they were also, like, going after me personally. So there were a lot of comments, like, making fun of my body, making fun of our sex life. Making fun of your body. A lot of, like, well, clearly her man's dick's too small. Like, she can't feel anything. Saying, like, you know, I've never been fucked properly. There were, you know, people saying, like, yeah, just, like, making fun of our marriage, making fun of our sex life, making fun of my qualifications, like, my training. Even people saying, like, I should have my license taken away. Like, it was really gnarly. Like, really fucking gnarly. So, you know, going back to the reel, the only— I kept watching it over and over again and trying to see where did this misunderstanding happen? What could have caused this? And again, maybe that's me being naive. Maybe it's just like I just need to accept that social media brings out the darkest in people sometimes.

Yeah.

And there's nothing that we can do about that. It just is what it is. But I do wanna take responsibility for one piece of it. So the question that originally we got, it was a longer question and it had more context, like what I was describing at the beginning here. Like, I enjoy sex with my husband. It's, you know, it's an enjoyable act, but I'm not having orgasms from it. Is it normal to not be able to feel very much when he's inside of me? And when we made the reel, you know, you're always dealing with these constraints of like what you can fit on the screen and how long the reel can last and all this stuff, which makes it really challenging, which is why I I oftentimes prefer the podcast here. But on the screen, we put just the part of the question that said, is it normal to not be able to feel much when he's inside of me?

Much. Much is the operating word. Nobody said to feel absolutely nothing. Nobody said to feel completely numb.

Nobody said to feel pain or discomfort. Nobody said, is it normal to feel like my husband is raping me? Like, it wasn't anything like that. But like, if I'm trying to give these people the benefit of the doubt, if I'm trying— like, I always want to, you know, both you and I in our relationship, we really try to own our side of the street. That's not a saying, is it?

Yes. Yeah.

Keep our side of the street clean. That's something different. We both try to like— we own our shit, you know? So I want to take ownership of this. We could have made it more clear. We could have said in the reel or put it in the caption or tried to squeeze the question and just made the text really tiny so that everybody got the full context. For me, it is totally a stretch to see not feel much and think that that means numb, dissociated, no relationship whatsoever, but like I can also see that it wasn't the most clear. We could have been a little bit more clear.

Yeah.

So I do wanna make sure that we're being completely clear in this episode. It is not normal to feel numb in your vagina. It is not normal to feel zero sensation whatsoever. And there are a lot of potential causes for that.

If you do.

If you do. It could be trauma. It could be dissociation. It could be sexual pain conditions. It could be sexual shame. It could be a lack of safety in your relationship. There are a lot of potential causes. So if you are feeling numb, if you are feeling zero sensation, if you are feeling any sort of discomfort or pain, those are not things to push through. Those are issues that need to be addressed first by seeing a pelvic floor physical therapist, maybe not one of the ones that shit all over me, but pelvic floor physical therapist, a pelvic pain specialist, working with a sex therapist, a psychotherapist. Like, you deserve to treat whatever it is that's getting in the way of, you know, you feeling more sensation in your vagina. Those things need to be addressed. But, no, wait, let me not say but, 'cause I don't wanna make it seem like I'm discounting any of those things. Like, just straight up, not normal to feel numb, dissociated, no sensation, pain, discomfort, period.

Yeah, don't push yourself to have sex in those situations, 'cause you're only going to make things worse.

I do firmly, 10 toes down, Stand on the fact, the scientific fact, that the vagina is just not wired to feel nearly as much sensation as the clitoris. From that pure nerve-ending perspective that we were talking about a few minutes ago, clitoris has 8,000 to 10,000 nerve endings. The vagina has so few that we don't even have a proper scientific tally. And I want to talk more about the science of this too. So when we are fetuses in the womb, We start off like we don't have a gender. We're all just little blobs of cells until around 9 to 11 weeks. And at that time, the tissues start differentiating into different genitals.

And yeah, and this is why you can't get a test to find out the sex of a baby like 3 weeks after conception, right? That's why you have to wait a certain amount of time to get that test done.

So imagine that you have a ball of clay. You could take that ball of clay and you could shape it into a nice Nice mug. You could take that same ball of clay and you could shape it into a plate. It's the same ball of clay, you just made it into different shapes, right? So that bundle of cells is the ball of clay here, and it turns into the clitoris for someone who's going to be born a woman and the penis for someone who's going to be born a man. So the clitoris and the penis are biological equivalents. They are the same thing, the same ball of clay made out of the same stuff. We call them homologous structures. So they are both the respective pleasure centers of their genders, and actually the clitoris is even more sensitive than the penis. I mentioned earlier the penis has 2,000 to 3,000 nerve endings.

Yeah, what happens where our nerve endings just like stop developing relative to the clitoris? It's kind of sad.

I don't really know. So if you want to have an orgasm, the best Most reliable, most like consistent path is to stimulate one of those 2 parts. That's not saying that orgasm and pleasure aren't possible in other ways, but those are the 2 parts. Like when you think of male orgasm, we are all picturing touching a man's penis. Your hands, your mouth, putting it inside a body. Like we— it's just like the default thing. If you want to make a guy come, you got to touch his penis in some way, right? But we don't have that same respect for the clitoris. The clitoris, like, we haven't even talked about the clitoris for, you know, just in the last couple of decades we've started talking about the clitoris more openly. It's always been the butt of a lot of jokes, like, oh, the clitoris, does it even exist? It's so hard to find. It's so mysterious. We make it seem like needing clitoral stimulation is this extra thing. It's so hard. Why are women asking for so much? We would never treat the penis in that way. Like, ugh, you want to orgasm? You need me to touch your penis? Does it even exist? Where is it? I can't find it. So we're not taught this though. So the vast majority of women are left feeling like something is wrong with them. Like they're broken in some way. They start having intercourse and it's like, This feels good. It's intimate. It's pleasurable. I feel connected to my partner, but like I'm not feeling a ton of sensation, and I feel like something's wrong with me. I'm broken. I've been lied to about what sex is like. And of course, there's like varying degrees of this, but a lot of women get that sense where, you know, they feel like something is wrong with them. And I personally struggled with this for a very long time myself. I was able to figure out how to make myself orgasm when I was younger, But for my entire partnered sex life until I met Xander, I couldn't orgasm with a partner because I thought it was just supposed to happen from penetration alone. And I felt like something was horribly wrong with me. I felt like I was broken. I was in the sex therapy field doing internships and research and like still didn't know it's normal to not orgasm from penetration alone. So, I've been through all those experiences myself of feeling like I'm broken, something's wrong with me, what's going on, why am I not getting there, just from that alone. So, this has made me, like those personal experiences have made me feel very passionate about teaching the truth about the clitoris, the truth about like how female orgasm actually works, and helping women discover their pleasure and discover that there is absolutely nothing wrong with them, and like learn how to get more empowered, how to feel more sensation, how to have orgasms. I mean, Xander mentioned earlier, like, we have a literal orgasm course for women called Finishing School. That was the second course I ever made in this business. Like, that was my, you know, it still is my passion. Now, does all of this mean that you should have zero relationship with your vagina? Abso-fucking-lutely not. Like, the vagina is amazing. It's one of the coolest parts of the human body. Like, I want I want every woman to love her vagina. I want her to feel like joy and pleasure and connection and curiosity. I want her to feel connected to her vagina every single day. Like, I have a phenomenal relationship with my vagina. I love my vagina so much despite what a lot of these comments said.

You have a phenomenal one.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

And I also want to be super clear here too. Like, if you are someone who feels a ton of sensation during sex, if you are a During intercourse. If you are somebody who has orgasms from penetration alone, that's awesome. I love that for you. There's nothing wrong with you. That's not bad in any sort of way.

You're actually very lucky. We'll talk about why in a minute, I think.

Yeah, I mean, it's not as common. So the research shows that only about 15% of women orgasm from penetration alone, and even that 15%, it's not necessarily always consistent. So it's not super common, But there's nothing wrong with you. And like I said at the end of the video, like, there are lots of ways to create more sensation in the vagina and to learn how to orgasm during sex. So for me personally, like, intercourse was always pleasurable. Like, I felt sensations. I never felt numb or anything like that, but it wasn't enough to make me orgasm in and of itself.

What if we talk about like the 1 to 10 scale kind Like, I'm curious, kind of like on the 1 to 10 pleasure scale, where like 1 is nothing and 10 is having an orgasm, like what would you get up to max before you realized that you had to invite the clit to the party?

It's hard for me to remember like my sex life before you, but I'd probably say like, I don't know, maybe like a 5 or 6.

Mm-hmm. So you'd be like, okay, we're like, we're making progress, and then it would just stop.

Yeah.

Or you'd hit the plateau and nothing would improve that.

Yeah, yeah, it was just like kind of that was the max that I could reach. But now, like having put a lot of, you know, a lot of it was literally just finally understanding I'm not broken, nothing's wrong with me. That like freed me up to start exploring my body in a more curious, open way rather than like, if you feel like you're broken or something's wrong with you, you can't explore your body in a joyful way. Like you've just got that idea in the back of your head like I'm broken, something's wrong. It's so hard to then like, ah, let me feel all this joy and curiosity and explore my body and figure out what feels good for me. Like, that's why in finishing school, we literally start, like, the beginning of the course is all about mindset, you improving your relationship with your body, understanding nothing's wrong with you, because once you get to that place, then the whole world opens up for you. So I'm now at the point where I feel a lot more sensation in my vagina. Like, I would say, I'd say it ranges from the low end is now like a 5, and I could get up to an 8 or a 9. My clitoris, like clitoral stimulation, definitely like the ceiling is higher. Like, I'll get to a 10 with clitoral stimulation, and like overall clitoral stimulation feels more pleasurable for me than vaginal stimulation, but I have had orgasms just from penetration alone.

Yeah, but then, and to be really clear for all the people listening, When you've had orgasms from vaginal penetration alone, no clitoral stimulation— sorry, let me rephrase that. No direct clitoral stimulation, because surprise, surprise, people who are orgasming from penetration alone are actually still having some clitoral stimulation, but no direct clitoral stimulation. That probably happens very rarely, maybe a couple of times. A year. Because the reality is, is that when we have intercourse, we stimulate— either me or you stimulates your clitoris at the same time.

Yeah, to me it's like—

That's just part of the experience.

Yeah. I mean, if I— because it feels more better. It feels better to me. I feel more sensation. It's like, why would I not do both?

And then I imagine— I mean, tell me. I'm actually curious what it's like because I think I feel like the pushback that a lot of women have on this, and perhaps a lot of men do, not a lot, but perhaps the men who do push back on this would feel this. I think that there's this idea that, oh, well, if I'm having to touch myself, or even if my partner's having to touch me while we're also having intercourse, that then somehow my experience is more derived from the clitoral stimulation. So it's like, well, what's the point of us even having the intercourse? To begin with. But is it fair to say, I would imagine when I watch you, it does seem like that once you add that clitoral stimulation, your pleasure is like, you couldn't really disentangle, is the pleasure coming from the penetration or is the pleasure coming from the clitoral stimulation?

It's both.

Yeah. Because if I were to just stop, Having sex, your level of pleasure would drop pretty significantly. Or we've had experiences where you're close to orgasm and then my penis slips out or something, or I'm too tired in one position, I have to move, and that sets your timing back. So it's very obviously, it's not like the fingering the clit is not the thing that's just completely driving the show. And I think that that's sort of the pushback people have is that, oh, well then like the penetration isn't doing anything. That really it's just like, I just have to take care of myself while he has at it with me. But I don't think that's the experience that you have, right?

No, no, not at all. Yeah, to me it's like, you know, you inside of me feels really good. It feels intimate. It feels very connecting. I like experimenting with different positions. I like, you know, our bodies close to each other, and there is a pure physical sensation that, yeah, it's between like 5 and 9, so it feels really good. And my clitoris also feels really fucking good. So it's like, why would I go for one or the other when I can have both?

Oh, yep.

And then, yeah, like, it is a— like, that pleasure just kind of, it combines and it amplifies itself, and it That combination of sensations feels really good.

Synergistic.

Yeah, exactly.

I think that's an important point for everybody to keep in mind.

I orgasm every single time too, just to clarify, because there were a lot of trolly comments about that.

Yeah, I make her come every time, guys.

To me, orgasms are important. I want to have an orgasm every single time. That's why we have a rule in our sex life. Everyone who wants an O gets an O. Like, there are for sure people who are like, yeah, I don't need to have an orgasm in order for that to be a satisfying experience, and I respect that experience, but it's not my experience. I want an orgasm every time. If I don't have an orgasm, it's not a super satisfying experience for me. We have tried a lot of different electrolytes because we are team hydration over in this household. We're always trying to stay hydrated. And Cure is such an incredible electrolyte. They have clean ingredients. It's coconut water and pink Himalayan salt doing the work, not sugar. They have incredible flavors. So if you're somebody who just like can't bring yourself to drink a lot of water, but also like hydration is more than just water, but you will love Cure's flavors. They have peach mango, berry pomegranate, watermelon, blood orange, tropical punch. There's a ton of different flavors. They also have a variety pack so you can try all of them out.

I've done it, every single one of the variety packs. The variety pack is delicious. It's hard for me to pick a favorite, honestly.

They're also super convenient. They come in these little travel packs. You can just toss them in your purse, have them in the car so you can always stay hydrated on the go. Cure Hydration is officially in Target now. So you can stock up at Target, at your local Target, or you can get 20% off at curehydration.com with code Pillow Talks. That's 20% off at curehydration.com with code Pillow Talks. I want to address another aspect of this. So a lot of the angry comments on that reel claimed that real women orgasm from vaginal stimulation alone. And there's this real— there's this way that we've— these commenters are like really emphasizing vaginal orgasm and like placing it above clitoral orgasm. Like clitoral orgasm is below. And there was a lot of comments about how You know, real women who are sophisticated and are liberated and spiritual and truly connected to their bodies, real women have orgasms from vaginal penetration alone. And that clitoral stimulation is like a crutch that repressed women have to lean on. Like something is wrong with you if you have to have clitoral stimulation, or they're these lesser orgasms, or, you know, women who are not liberated.

Right.

Who are not, you know, like spiritual, have to use clitoral orgasm. Like, they're really shitting on the clitoris. And I wanna be, again, I wanna stand 10 fucking toes down on this, that that is absolutely not true. And it is honestly just the same old bullshit that has been around for forever, just with this new age spiritual twist on it. So, I wanna do a tiny bit of history of Tantra here, because a lot of these comments come from, they came from women who are Tantra coaches, or teachers, or like kind of sharing Tantra philosophies.

Yeah.

And I do wanna be super clear here, like I'm not a Tantra historian. I have studied it, it's something I'm familiar with, but I'm certainly not an expert. I'm certainly not like a historian who knows like the exact So I did go back to prep for this episode and like do some research and make sure I had my facts straight, but I'm sure somebody who's like an actual historian here would probably find more nuance to what I'm about to share. So, you know, take it—

Hey, if we have any tantra historians listening to our podcast, let us know.

Okay, but I do, yeah, I do kind of want to talk about this because I think a lot of this pushback gets Framed in that way. And also, like, not all tantra practitioners are the same. I'm not trying to shit on tantra here. Like, people teach it in different ways. They have different understandings of it. Like, I have no issue with tantra, you know, as a concept or as a teaching, but I do think the ways that certain people have interpreted it, that's what I wanna call out here.

'Cause is it kind of like that it's like, oh, well, this information has actually been around forever, but now people are like trying to get you to focus, to like forget about it or focus on the clit or something like that?

Well, yeah, I think a lot of people have this idea that tantra Tantra taught us that the deepest, most spiritual orgasms happen deep inside of the body, and the clitoris is the beginner version of it, but that actually is not related to ancient Tantra at all. It's actually a pretty modern intervention.

Interesting.

Real Tantra goes back about 1,000 years to medieval India, and it was a whole spiritual A lot of people think Tantra and you just think like Kama Sutra, like, and it was so much broader than just sex. It was about meditation, ritual, chanting. Sex was like a tiny piece of it, and the goal was actually more like spiritual, not about pleasure. So the version that we hear now was mostly created actually in the West in the '60s and '70s.

Uh-oh. Sounds problematic.

It's like this kind of like neo-Tantra. And the people who shaped this more modern version borrowed from 2 European psychologists, one of whom you will definitely recognize, Freud, and one of his like primary students, Wilhelm Reich, which maybe some people might recognize from like a Psych 101 course. So back in 1905, Freud was the first person to claim that grown-up women were supposed to orgasm from penetration and that women who needed and clitoral stimulation were somehow immature or broken.

Freud had some interesting views on a lot of topics, right?

Freud had a lot. I mean, he's the father of psychology, but he also had a lot of really fucked up ideas. And like, this whole time period was fucked up, like, especially towards women. I mean, we were diagnosing women with like hysteria. We were doing real weird things to like treat them. There was— it was a weird time, okay? And Freud had some extremely fucked up sexist, racist, misogynistic, like bad ideas. Contributed a lot of great things too, but a lot of bad shit. So Reich took this a step further and he taught that like this full whole body orgasm was the secret to being mentally healthy. Like the deep internal orgasm is the real one. This was also kind of around the time that women's mental health was, it was actually treated with vibrators. Like women would go in to their therapist And get masturbated to like make them mentally healthier, but the doctor's hands were getting so tired that they invented vibrators to help them be able to do the stimulation better. Okay, so this is like weird, weird origins for this whole idea that the orgasm should happen internally, that you're immature if it's the clitoris, and again, it's too white Old white European dudes. It's not ancient tantra.

Well, who also— I mean, I think you also have to call out when it's like men that originally push a certain view. Men have a kind of a perverse interest in pushing a vaginally focused experience because it benefits men. It benefits people with penises not having to do anything else. Just doing the thing that feels best for them and then getting to be like, great, I'm done. I did my part. You didn't come, that's on you. Like, there was— there's an incentive for men to continue to just do what they've been doing and to not feel like they are getting in the way of their partner having the same kind of experience as them.

Yeah. So this more like Neo-Tantra version that then, you know, kind of emerged out of like the '60s or '70s, like the main— again, it was men who were keeping this alive. Like, these were people who were really big fans of Freud and Reich and just like kind of swapped their beliefs in. So again, like, this has just been perpetrated by men. There hasn't been any like actual scientific evidence behind it. I already talked about all the science that we now know that Like understanding the homologous structures, understanding like the mapping of the nerves in different body parts. Like, so it just, yeah, it does not have anything to do with this original ancient practice. It's not actually rooted in spiritual— spirituality. Spirituality. Like, it's, you know, so that kind of drives me crazy as well. And I hate this way that it's been co-opted now. And now, you know, we're prioritizing the vagina over the clitoris. We're shitting all over the clitoris yet again, like trying to elevate the vagina. And what also drives me fucking crazy is that we only do this to women. We only do this to women. We do not make men feel bad about needing their penises stimulated. We do not pressure men to have orgasms from other parts of their body. Like, there is no orgasm hierarchy for men the same way there is for women. Nobody's out here being like, Like, why aren't you having ball orgasms? It's so immature and unsophisticated. Only repressed men— only— can you imagine? Only repressed men need to have their penises stimulated. We would never. We would never. And you don't have all these like, you know, oh, these 15 kinds of orgasms that men need to have. Like, we respect the penis. I talked about those homologous structures earlier, right? So Also, want to know the homologous structure of the vagina in women? It is the prostatic utricle in men. It's a tiny duct. The scientific name is actually vagina masculina. Where's the freaking comments on Instagram about like, oh, you're not having a prostatic utricle orgasm? You must be repressed. Like, I've never heard of a man having a prostatic utricle orgasm. Maybe I'll start a burner account.

Maybe I could open up a burner burner account, like, Prostatic Utricle O.

It drives me— it's— see, I mean, you can obviously like hear me getting heated. Like, it drives me fucking crazy that we only do this to women. So again, like, to be super clear, I want every woman, every vagina owner, like, I want you to explore your vagina. I want you to love your vagina. I want you to feel so connected to your vagina. I want you to So in tune with your vagina. Like, I can feel my vagina right now. Like, I want that for you. But why do we have to shit on the clitoris? Why do we have to elevate the vagina above the clitoris? Why can't we honor both and be realistic about how these body parts actually work? There's— what— why is there something wrong with saying your clitoris is just hardwired to feel a lot more sensation? Your vagina isn't as hardwired to feel as much sensation, but that's okay. Explore it. Feel pleasure. Enjoy it. Explore the clitoris. Feel pleasure with the clitoris. Enjoy it. Like, we don't have to shit on one body part to elevate the other body part. Let's just be honest and realistic and give women the information we actually need to understand how our bodies work.

Yeah, I mean, and I think in terms of the information that you need, you know, we did allude to the fact that some women can reliably or unreliably achieve orgasm through penetration alone. And what is typically happening in those situations is that the clitoris, we think of it as this small external structure. In reality, it is a much larger internal structure. It looks a bit like a wishbone, and it goes— and that wishbone part goes down along the vaginal walls. And depending on your individual anatomy, those legs of the clitoris may or may not be—

The clitoris.

For different people, they are closer or further from the vaginal canal, right? And so for people where those legs are closer, they may experience a lot more internal clitoral stimulation during penetration. than people whose legs are a bit further oriented away from the vaginal opening, right? And then on top of that, there's this other added layer of clitoral stimulation preferences. Some women like direct stimulation of their clitoris. Some women, direct stimulation is way too overwhelming, and so they prefer indirect stimulation. So if you are someone that is more of an indirect stimulation preferer, and you also happen to have those clitoral legs oriented closer to your vaginal opening, then you are very likely to have a much better experience with just intercourse. And so you might think, oh yeah, I'm having an orgasm from penetration, or I'm having an orgasm from my cervix being stimulated. Well, in reality, the legs of your clitoris are probably being stimulated somewhere during the penetration, and that is what is actually giving you the orgasm, not actually the cervix or the walls of the vagina. But imagine if you're someone that prefers direct clitoral stimulation. Indirect stimulation is not going to do that much for you. And so you are much more likely to actually want to directly stimulate your clitoris. And so the problem is we end up getting a lot of these women who are sex educators or tantra specialists or pelvic floor PTs, who may themselves be able to achieve, you know, they're in that 15 to, like, 15% of people that happen to be lucky enough to prefer a certain thing, prefer internal stimulation, and have the ability to get that internal stimulation. And they're going, oh, well, it works for me, so it should work for you.

Yeah.

And all that says is, I don't really understand the anatomy of this. I don't understand the science of it. I am just gonna tell people that because it works for me, me, it should work for you. Because I feel like spiritually evolved, that if you just become spiritually evolved and work on it hard enough, that this could be for you too. Rather than being like, maybe I should feel grateful that I happen to like the certain type of stimulation and have the anatomy that allows me to have this and realize that I'm lucky.

Mm-hmm.

That most people don't have that. And that by me opening my mouth and trying to tell people that they should be able to do the same thing as me, that like all I'm doing is actually damaging other people. You're setting women back.

And I don't even want to say lucky. Like, it's just different. Like, your body's wired different. Because lucky, I worry, like, makes it seem like, you know, oh, you're lucky because that's a better experience.

Well, lucky if your ideal is that just penetration should be the only thing that we do. Honestly, I like having intercourse much better when you or I are touching you. Like, it's touching you, like, it's way more exciting. Like, if we're—

It's just another, yeah, it's another variable. And like, I could choose to have all my orgasms like just from vaginal stimulation alone and like not touch my clitoris ever again. I could do that if I wanted to, but I don't want to. Like, I get so much stimulation, sensation and pleasure from my clitoris. It's literally there. The clitoris has no other purpose in the body, unlike the penis, which has reproductive purposes and you have to pee out of it. The clitoris has no other purpose other than just to feel pleasure. So for me, it's like, why would I not be taking advantage of that? Sure, I could if I wanted to, but I don't want to. I wanna enjoy that. Yeah, it makes sense. So yeah, I just wanna be really careful that it's not lucky, it's just a different experience. And yes, it's more about what we as a society like come to think is the better thing, but it truly is not. There's no hierarchy here whatsoever. And I also just wanna clarify too, like, I want people, if you want to, like, I want people to have spiritual relationships with sex too.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't think the only way to do that is through like deep vaginal penetration. Like, does that mean that lesbians can't be spiritual? Does that mean that they, like, you know, if you don't have intercourse for some reason, maybe there's an injury or a, Like physical ability issues. Does that mean like, you know, then those people are just fucked? Like, obviously not. So if you, you know, if having a spiritual element to your sex life feels good to you, like, I want you to do that. And I don't think it, you know, it means the only way to get there is deep through your vagina. You can feel nice and spiritual with your clitoris too. Okay, we gotta wrap it up because we are already at the end of our time today. I honestly could keep going. And this is just like such a topic I'm so passionate about. And we didn't even have time to like get into the whole more of the like social media aspect of just, yeah, what it's like to put yourself out there. Maybe I'm curious about like, are you, dear listener, interested in hearing us talk more about what it's like trying to make content on the internet? I'm sure it could go one of two ways. Like I know a lot of people group us in with influencers, and like I really don't think of us as influencers at all because like I feel like we're a business account. We're like promoting our business. But I think because of the size of our account, a lot of people just kind of lump us in with influencers. And I know there's not an awful lot of sympathy for influencers today. So there's probably some people who are like, "I don't give a fuck." Like, "Mwah mwah!" It's so hard to be an influencer with 1.3 million followers on Instagram. So I totally respect that.

that.

But I do think there's, you know, there's some really interesting dynamics about what it's like to put yourself out there knowing that people are going to misunderstand you, knowing that people are going to willfully choose to misunderstand you, knowing that you are just getting energy thrown at you from all sides and all angles, what it's like not being able to— knowing that you're not going to be able to change people's minds about you, knowing that people are not going to see the real you. Like, there's so many interesting— to me, it's really fascinating, but I get that it's probably not for everybody. So let us know either in— you can comment on Spotify or you can come over to Instagram @VanessaAndXander and let us know what you think.

Yes.

So yeah, ultimately, you know, my original reaction when I was first seeing those comments is I just wanted to crawl into a hole and hide and And not talk about it. I just felt like so much shame and embarrassment and like just intense, you know, just the intensity of all that anger directed towards me. But ultimately, talking about this stuff is really important to me, and doing the work that we do is really important to me. It's so meaningful to me, and I'm willing to take the fucking hit.

Yeah.

hits. Like, that's ultimately what it comes down to is there's a lot about our business and a lot about, like, being, you know, having a large audience that's really fun, and there's a lot that's really fucking hard. And I'm ultimately like, this is an agreement I've made with the universe is I'm willing to take the hits. I'm willing to get shit on. I'm willing to get ripped to shreds. I've just asked the universe, like, please protect me and protect our relationship. But as long as you do that, like, I will keep doing this work. Yeah, it's important to me, and I will, I will keep doing it. And if you are somebody who has ever or currently feels broken because you're not feeling the ultimate sensation, you're not having orgasms from penetration alone, like, I will I will keep standing up for you and keep telling you until I am blue in the face that it is normal and you are not broken and we are here for you. And speaking of being blue in the face, I forgot to mention for our friends who are watching on YouTube, my face looks horrible right now. I got a halo laser treatment 3 days ago and I am peeling and covered in little scabies.

You look highly freckled.

I look like— somebody reached out on Instagram, even though I put on this slide like, forgive my face, I'm recovering from Halo laser. They're like, what's up with your 5 o'clock shadow?

That's funny.

I just want my skin to look good, okay? Anyways, thank you for listening. Thank you for hanging out for this episode, and join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.