E279: Ask a Sex Therapist: Kink Icks, Spicy Pics, and Vanilla Sex

What's a respectful way to ask your wife for spicy pics? Is it normal to have average sex consistently and once in a while it's mind-blowing?

Is it normal that clitoral stimulation can almost feel like it hurts?

What do I do if my partner has a kink that gives me the ick?

How to approach intimacy when the rest of the marriage is in a rough patch?

Carefully.

Yes.

Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship while giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. We are back today with another round of Ask a Sex Therapist.

You got more questions for us. They never stop.

The questions never stop. Surprisingly, or maybe not surprisingly, We actually have decided a little something when it comes to Pillow Talks. You know, we get so many questions from our audience just on a daily basis, DMs, emails. We also on Instagram every Wednesday we do an Ask Us Anything series and we ask people for their questions. And we realize, you know, yeah, there's just literally no way for us to get through all of them because we get so many and— The questions are so freaking interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously we see some of the same questions over and over again, but I feel like every day we see something new. I'm always like reading something to you like, babe, I've never heard this before. What do you think about this one?

It's one of the most fun parts of doing this with you.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting to just see what other people are going through, to see the questions that are coming up for them. So we decided recently to try to devote more of our Pillow Talks episodes to our listener questions. I mean, I think also, like, you and I both grew up listening to Lovelines.

Oh God, yeah.

It was such a—

Foundational.

Yeah, integral part of our lives. And we loved, you know, we both really loved hearing the questions, hearing how Adam and Dr. Drew would respond. And then more recently, like early in our relationship, we started listening to—

More recently is funny. I was about to say next step, 'cause we were still very young when this happened.

Yeah, we started listening to the Savage Lovecast.

Yeah, Dan Savage.

I mean, yeah, Dan is just such an icon. He's been doing this forever. And every single one of his episodes are all listener questions too. So, you know, we have so much love for both of these shows. I think Loveline got really weird in some of its later days. But, you know, it was foundational.

Both of the hosts evolved or changed in terms of kind of what their perspectives on things are. I haven't really kept up with it. I mean, yeah, I think Like, if those two were doing Loveline still, and God, I almost don't wanna say that because there's a part of me that wonders, like, are they actually? Is Loveline even in existence anymore? I think it might be in some form or another. I don't think it's Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla doing it, but—

Oh no, it ended.

Okay, all right. I was just making sure because I feel like it— I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't even end that long ago.

But regardless, It ended 10 years ago.

Okay, never mind. All right, 10 years ago. Great. I love being fact-checked in real time.

It said several relaunches of the show have occurred since that time, but then March '25, new episodes are no longer being produced.

Yeah. No, I mean, who knows if those guys would be giving the same advice that they were back in the day based on where they're at in their lives now. But, you know, whatever. That's not what the topic of this episode is. That was such a foundational thing for us growing up, and I think for so many people in our in our era, so to speak. But I mean, that show went on for so long that I think even people older and younger than us probably experienced it in some form or another.

Wait, wait, do you want to know when it began? I'm sorry, I can't help myself with this. This is a weird tangent, but I can't help it.

I'm sure it was way before us, because it was— when I was in high school starting to listen to it, it was a massive, massive, like nationally broadcast radio show, which means that it had— it must have To have that level of legitimacy back then when radio was still king, like you had to have been doing it for a long time.

1983.

Damn.

Before both of us were alive.

Wait, was it the two? Was it different hosts?

No, it was hosted by DJ Jim Poor Man Trenton, DJ Swedish Egil Alvik, I'm sure I'm brutally mispronouncing that, and Scott Mason. In '84, they introduced a segment called Ask a Surgeon hosted by Drew Pinsky, then a 4th-year medical student at USC. And then let's see, Adam Carolla joined in '95, coinciding with national syndication. Okay, we're going to stop the Loveline little detour there. But yes, basically we've decided let's do more of these episodes with listener questions.

But that's not to say for those of you—

Deep dive into them.

But for those of you that do like when we go deep on content, don't worry because when we answer listener questions, we still have the opportunity to go deep. on a lot of different topics, and we absolutely will. So I think it's gonna be a good balance. I think hopefully it should be more engaging balance of answering questions, but also getting to go deep on certain topics.

Yeah.

'Cause we will also, you know, depending on the day, we're gonna switch it up every single week, but we will definitely have episodes where it's like, let's talk about orgasm-related questions, or let's talk about initiation-related questions. So it's not like, Every single episode is just going to be a complete grab bag. Today will, but not every episode will be like this. So, yeah, we're interested what you think, what you guys like.

Yeah, I think one of the challenges with doing the more themed episodes where it's like, okay, we're going to go through 5 tips for XYZ, it can be challenging because if you're not interested in that topic, it's just like, eh, well, I guess I'm not like listening to a Pillow Talks this week. Whereas with episodes like this where it's a variety of questions, hopefully there's at least one nugget that you get to take away from an episode. So that's kind of our thought process. But before we get into today's questions, we would love it if you could do us a super quick favor. Grab your phone right now and just tap the little button that says follow or subscribe. Most people do not do this, and it actually, it really helps Pillow Talks grow, reach new couples if you do follow or subscribe to the show.

It also kills your sex life if you don't.

Oh.

Just kidding.

Wow. And if you wanna go the extra mile for us, because seriously, this podcast is such a labor of love. We pour so much time and energy into it. There's so many man hours that go into—

Woman hours, mostly.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. That go into preparing these episodes, editing them, posting them. This is not like a moneymaker for us at all. We really do this because we wanna be able to provide this as a free, entertaining resource. But if you wanna go the extra mile to support us, leaving a quick rating or review really helps. You can just leave a little 5-star rating. You can write one sentence. It's just like, this podcast is worth listening to. I like this podcast.

Hell, write love it.

Love it. That's all. But seriously, I mean, those ratings and reviews really help because when you're looking for a new podcast to listen to, if you see that that thing has 3.4 stars, like, you're not listening to that.

And you only see one review and it's like, This is my son. Support his podcast. I don't really get it, but I think it's great. You're probably not listening to that one. Am I right?

Shoot. Our parents haven't reviewed our podcast.

We need to— No, it might be for the best.

We need to ask them.

Might be for the best. I'm not sure. Sorry, Mom and Dad, if you're listening.

Okay. Let's get right into it.

Yeah. Hard U-turn here. Hard pivot.

And this is a great one to pivot into. What's a respectful way to ask your wife for spicy pics? Okay, I'll jump in and start this one as a wife myself. Okay, obviously, it depends on your wife. Like, you gotta know your wife to know how is she gonna respond to this. Like, some women you probably know, like, would just be, you know, you could just say, hey, send me a nude, and she's gonna be like, all right, here you go. I'm guessing that your You know, this person, your thought is, my wife is probably not gonna want to send these to me. That's why you're writing to us and asking for advice.

Or it's hard to tell. This also could be someone that's like, you know, sometimes she does and I really like it. But like, I've never asked for them. And I don't— I feel weird.

Okay, we can answer both ways.

I think it could be all kinds of things. Yeah, let's talk about like, I mean, I think that number one, my first question is, Have you guys ever talked about the topic of nudes in general? Is— are you— do you know if your partner is generally pro-nudes, anti-nudes, or neutral on nudes?

And this is where Pillow Talks gets to be the great conversation opener. Like, we really think about these episodes as ways to open up easy conversations between couples. So ask your partner, like, say, hey, I was listening to Pillow Talks this week. They were talking about nudes and how most couples have never talked about whether they actually like them or not. And I realized we haven't either. What do you think? Do you like them? Are you interested in them? Giving them? Receiving them? What do you think? So yeah, so let's just assume you don't really know how your partner's going to respond. Just straight up ask. Like, we get so many questions every single day from someone being like, how do I ask my partner this? How do I ask my partner that? And we're like, just ask. Like, it's okay. And I'm not trying to make it seem like it's a super simple or easy thing. Like, we are taught that we're not supposed to talk about sex openly. Most of us haven't, so it does feel Intimidating to imagine opening up this conversation that you may never have had. But I also wanna say, like, it is important for us to just rip that bandaid off and start talking about it. And if you're curious about what your partner thinks about something, the best thing to do is ask them. We can give you all the advice in the world, but at the end of the day, we're not your partner, so we might not give you the correct answer here.

I think the key though is it's not just ask the question. Like for this guy writing in, what is a respectful way to ask your wife for spicy pics? We are not trying to tell you just ask her to send you some spicy pics. It's ask about the topic in general.

Mm-hmm.

Don't make a request yet. Forget about a request. So you have some— I think ideally you want more spicy pics. You want any amount of spicy pics. Instead of asking for spicy pics, ask about, what do you think about this? What should we think about this as a couple? I realize we've never talked about this. Then if there is a neutral to positive answer there, then you can initiate the conversation of, hey, okay, so we're both neutral to okay with this. Why don't we try doing it a little more often?

Mm-hmm.

Right? But if you find out your partner is like, you know what? I get that people send nudes to each other, but I just feel really uncomfortable with the idea that there are naked pictures of me that you're trying to show someone photos and then a picture of my boobs comes up.

Oh, God.

Right? So different people are going to have different perspectives on that. And if your partner's like, hey, it's a hard boundary, hard pass for me, then there probably isn't a respectful way to ask. for nudes. But if your partner is neutral or positive around it, then there's absolutely a respectful way to ask, which would just be, hey, I think it's really hot when you send me nudes. If you have received them before, I think it's really hot, and would you be open to sending some more? And I will send some more to you. It's great to offer something in return. But if they never have, it could just be like, well, hey, I know we've never done this before, but we're both kind of open to it.

Mm-hmm.

I think it would be hot Maybe you offer, hey, I'm gonna try sending you a couple this week. And, you know, it would be fun if you wanted to send some back in response. See how that goes.

Yeah. And so if your partner is really shy about it, then, you know, you kind of started mentioning some in-between options too. Like, it could be, hey, can we take the pictures together and then we'll immediately delete them? It could be, I know they have apps where you can send photos and, you know, they disappear, or like you can only see them when the— within the app or something like that.

Or just use a different messaging app that you do not use for anything else. I think a lot of people do that. I think so that if you get a notification from an app that is not your Messages app or not your WhatsApp or whatever, then you're like, okay, I know what this is. And you can also set your phone So to give different delivery of notifications for different apps. So I think that's why another reason why people choose a separate app and you'd be like, do not put, don't give me like full-screen notifications from this app. Don't give me any notifications from this app. You could say, hey, let's set it so that there are zero notifications on this app. And then when I send you some, then I'll text you and be like, hey, check your other messages.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Could be something like that. It could be if your partner doesn't wanna do fully nude, Or maybe they could do photos like without their head in them.

Yeah, that's another, that's another great one. 'Cause I think a lot of people assume, oh yeah, we're just doing like the full nudes and we're printing like my name and address and, you know, phone number basically on it. And it's like, yeah, there are ways to do it so that there is no, you know, I guess in this day and age you can never say no defining characteristics, but no facial characteristics.

They could also be suggestive photos, but not fully nude. Um, there's I feel like we've mentioned before, there's some photographer whose account I follow who does creative poses. I can't remember her name. It's like Sarah Haugen, H-A-U-G-E-N, something like that. I'm sure if you Google creative photography or erotic photography or something like that, it might come up. But she does a lot of poses where it's like you can be fully nude, but you're crossing your arms or your legs in these ways that nothing is actually showing, but they're still super sexy photos.

Yes, absolutely. That look really exciting.

Option to explore together. But ultimately, when you make the request, I think it's really important to give your partner a lot of compliments along with it. Like, let— I think it's just really easy for women especially, and especially for women who might feel self-conscious about doing something like this, I think it's really easy to write it off as this is something about just satisfying a guy's desire and like, you know, oh, he'll take whatever he can get, you know, but we're married so he can't get them from other people so he has to get them It's very easy to depersonalize it. So if you tell her, you are so sexy. I cannot stop obsessing over your body. I love the way your breasts look. I love how great your ass is. I just wanna, you know, I can't get enough. If you frame it in that way, making it really personal to her, giving her tons of compliments, hyping her up for it, that's gonna make her a lot more likely to than just like, hey, send me nudes. That doesn't feel personal. That just feels like you just want something to jack off to.

Yeah, say why it is that it gets you so excited and what about her makes it so exciting for you.

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That is why we have both become really obsessed with But yeah, Xander is wearing one of their shirts right now. The quality has been super good on it.

Yeah.

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This is so interesting.

So it's not only like, hey, I'm not interested in this.

Yeah, it's I'm actively turned off.

I'm actively turned off. And I'm guessing like, Sometimes we hear a lot from people saying like, it makes me like kind of think about my partner in a different way. Like, ooh, really? You're interested in that? And that's really tough. That's an unfortunate dynamic to have because fantasies can feel very, very personal. And to share it with a partner is an incredibly vulnerable act. And then to hear that you've given somebody the ick would be— Devastating. But it's also tricky on the other side because you can't prevent yourself from not being into something. And I'm sure this person doesn't want to be having the ick towards the person that they love.

No.

So how do you navigate it? What do you do, Xander?

Yeah, I mean, this is, this is so tricky because this is the very reason why so many people are hesitant to share kinks with their partner because they are concerned about what will their partner think? Or maybe even, what will this person think if you're just in the dating phase?

Mmhmm.

So a lot of people do themselves the disservice of not talking about this for so long that they then get into a very serious, committed relationship. And then by the time they do share it, they're in really deep. And then they're having to make this decision between, well, do I get to include this aspect of my sexuality that feels really central to me? and not have this partner, or do I have this partner and censure myself sexually? And that's a really shitty place to be.

Mmhmm.

So I would encourage people, as challenging and scary and vulnerable as it is, to try to have these conversations as early on as possible. Maybe not on the first date, unless you are actually using a kink-forward dating app where people are there, because there are many of these where people are actually sharing What things they are into sexually. If sex is really important to you and a certain type of sex is really important to you, then I think it's a great thing to use a dating app that actually tailors or that is tailored to that and sharing of that so that you are only, you know, you're thinking of your sexual interests, your kinks, as you would hobbies where, you know, something is really important to you, you put it on your dating app profile. But for some reason, we don't do that with sex. Anyway, I think ultimately, if you are in the situation where you got a little further in than maybe you should have been, and now you're finding out about a kink, or you found out about it early on, but you didn't really say anything, and now you're like, oh, this is kind of actively a thing. Well, I think 2 things. One, you have to examine, is this truly a deal breaker? For me, or is this some kind of internalized sexual shame that is keeping me kind of closed off? Like, is this— am I concerned about this because it actually repulses me? I feel uncomfortable with it. I don't want to engage in it. Or is it because I'm worried about what other people might think? I'm worried that I might be a bad person if I engage in it, or, you know, some kind of internalized shame?

Mm-hmm.

when it comes to sex, or like, oh, good girls, good boys aren't supposed to do this, then you have an opportunity to consider, is there some personal work that I could do here?

Yeah.

Are there some ways— could I, you know, could I go talk to a therapist who specializes in this, who has experience with this, and talk about, you know, ways that you might be able to open yourself up a little more? Are there ways that you could dip your toe in? If yes, then great. Try Try to do that. Try to get a little more comfortable with it. But if you were like, you know what, at the end of the day, this is just not something I could ever see myself doing. It's not a shame thing. Like, I don't— I wouldn't look at somebody that does this differently. It's just not for me to be involved in that. I do think that that is a perfectly okay and acceptable point of view. Like, ultimately, we have sexual preferences. Right. And just like someone can have a kink where they really want to do something in order to derive sexual pleasure, they need to do a certain type of thing. I think that the flip side can be true as well, where it might bring you the opposite of sexual pleasure to do something. And I think that unfortunately, we have to accept that there are realities of we are all into different things. And if those things don't line up, we can't force it.

Mm-hmm.

So I do think that if you are finding that there's no personal work for you to do in that regard, and it is truly a, hey, I can't really, I just don't feel comfortable with this. I don't feel in integrity with my own sexuality to be engaging in this. I think that you have to break it off.

Well, it totally depends on how central it is to your partner's experience. A lot of people have things that are, you know, it's a fantasy of mine to be able to do that. But it's not like, oh, if I never did that, then that would devastate me. So it really depends.

You know what? I think I heard the word kink and I assumed that—

You thought fetish more.

Yeah, I guess kink. I assumed that by using that word, you're saying this isn't just something I fantasized about. It's something that I really want to or need to do to feel complete. But if that's not the case, I mean—

Yeah, not everybody uses that word in that way. It might just be like, yeah, this is something that turns me on, I'm interested in, But like, yeah, if I'm never gonna do it, I'm bummed, that sucks, but it's okay. 'Cause ultimately, just in the same way that you're never gonna find somebody who's 100% compatible with you outside the bedroom, you're never gonna find somebody who's 100% compatible inside the bedroom. So if this is something that's extremely central to your partner's experience, yeah, in those rare circumstances, it might be that you guys just, there's not enough there and you do need to part ways. But I think the vast majority of cases are just going to be where there's a disappointment about that. But there's an agreement of like, yeah, this isn't going to be something that's a part of our sex life.

Yeah, sorry, I should revise what I meant was you shouldn't just break it off if you're like, no, that's a hard pass for me. You got to bring that up to your partner and be really respectful but clear with them that that is not something that you are open to in your sex life. And so, you know, you got to ask your partner, how, you know, is that something that you are willing to or open to living without in our sex life? Yes or no?

Mmhmm.

Because, yeah, if the answer for them is no, then you guys are going to have to probably break up or open the relationship in some way so that they can experience that in another way, if that's something you're comfortable with. But if it is something that they are willing to say, hey, you know what, I'm okay, this is something that I would love to have, but there's also a lot of other things that I'm into, and I feel like I can be satisfied in that way, then yeah, absolutely continue on. But I think that it's important to keep checking in about that stuff, because it can be really easy for someone in the moment to be like, yeah, I think I'll be okay without that.

Mm-hmm.

And then like a year later, you might be like, oh God, now I'm really thinking about this.

I would not though, like I would never share with another person that their fantasy or kink or whatever it is gives you the ick.

Yeah.

I just think that's a cruel thing. And again, it takes a lot of vulnerability to share something that personal and intimate with another person. And regardless of how you feel about the specific thing they've shared, you need to respect that vulnerability that it took to let you in in that way. So I would never tell a partner like, oh yeah, that gives me the ick. That's so gross. I could never do that. I would make it really clear in saying, hey, I respect that that's your thing. It's not something that I think that I can participate in or that I'm interested in participating in. But again, I respect that that's your thing.

Maybe even add, hey, I've given it a lot of thought. I've tried to consider ways that I could be involved. Maybe you have been involved in certain ways. I've dipped my toe in this way or that way. Or I've thought about it. I've tried to kind of fantasize about it to see how I feel about it, rather than just being like, hey, yeah, I don't think I'm going to be able to do that. I think being able to show your partner, hey, I've really given this some serious thought, that kind of throws them a bit of a bone.

Yeah.

So that they're not coming away with— because it really is the worst fear of someone that has a kink or a fantasy, that you're going to share it and the person is going to have just a gut reaction. Like, oh, gross, you wanna do that? And so whatever you can do to avoid that vibe, I think is really important.

The last thing I'll say about this too is I think we have a tendency to, we wanna read into fantasies and kink. Like, well, why is it that that person's interested? And what does it say about them? And a lot of times there's kind of intense stuff that comes up. Like, oh, does that mean they were abused as a child? Or stuff like that. And so I wanna be really clear that The vast majority of sexual interests and curiosities and fantasies, for the vast majority of people, there is not a clear reason behind why somebody likes that thing. Sure, sometimes there absolutely is, like a specific like, oh, this happened to me in childhood and you know those neurons kind of fired together and wired together. But the vast majority of the time there isn't, in the same sort of way that there's no specific reason why I don't love. I can never think of like a food. What's a food I don't— oysters. I don't love oysters, but like that doesn't say anything about me as a person. There's no childhood trauma behind oysters.

Well, you just weren't fed them as a child.

I was not.

That is true.

But yeah, it works in the same way as food preferences. Like it's just kind of random. And honestly—

And they can change over time, like food preferences. Yeah.

And there can be a You know, having a certain preference can be a really challenging thing. Like, here's this random thing that for some reason you're super interested in and super into, and you know the vast majority of people are gonna think that's weird or not gonna wanna do it with you. Like, there's a sadness around that for some, you know, some specific interests. So I just wanna encourage being really gentle and respectful of your partner. Yeah.

All right, next we have, how to approach intimacy when the rest of the marriage is in a rough patch?

Carefully.

Yes.

Okay, so we talk a lot about the two-sided coin of intimacy, where we have emotional intimacy and physical intimacy, and they're deeply entwined. And typically in a relationship, you have one partner who wants to feel emotionally connected before they feel open to having sex, and the other partner wants to have sex as a way to open up emotional connection. And it can feel like this really cruel joke from the universe that like, why is the thing that I want the exact opposite of what my partner wants? And I wanna be really clear in saying there is no hierarchy here. Like emotional intimacy isn't better than physical intimacy. Physical intimacy isn't better than emotional intimacy. They're both necessary in a healthy, happy relationship. We have to work on Both of them. But that being said, if your marriage is in a rough patch, we do think that you need to work on the emotional intimacy of it first. And again, not because emotional intimacy is more important or better, but when your relationship is in a rough patch, like if you're feeling— and obviously we don't know exactly what rough patch means for this couple. But for a lot of people, it's really hard to feel safe enough to have sex when things are not in a good place. And I don't mean physically safe, like you're worried your partner's gonna do something bad to you, but—

Emotionally safe.

Emotionally safe. Yeah. It doesn't feel emotionally safe to connect with somebody when you're feeling disconnected, when you've been fighting a lot, when there's resentment, when the word divorce has been tossed out, when you're You know, feeling like you can't stop arguing. Like, that is, you know, again, for some people, they think, yeah, we're not in a good patch. So the way that we need to get closer is like, let's have sex again. But it's just not emotionally safe to do that.

Yeah, usually for at least one person in the partnership. If you are 2 people that both prefer to have physical intimacy, In order to feel more open to emotional connection, you're probably not writing in to ask this question because you are probably continuing to have sex despite being in a rough patch. So we are answering under the assumption that one or both of you is more of a— needs a baseline level of emotional connection first. That being said, I do think that it can be really powerful to just acknowledge the situation, and then talk about— talk openly about what you guys want to do when it comes to sex, given where you guys are. And I think that that is something that most people just assume that conversation is totally off the table. But I think that there's actually something really powerful and vulnerable and something that can actually bring you closer together if you're just really, really honest. And, you know, so that could be something along the lines of, Hey, I know that we are in a challenging season of our relationship right now due to X, Y, and Z, right? Like whatever is going on for you guys, explaining that you understand the situation. I think getting to an acceptance of what is going on and an acknowledgement to your partner, one, that can even just, that in and of itself can be really powerful so that you stop walking around on eggshells. I think that's the thing that happens so much. When things are in a rough spot is like not wanting to even acknowledge it. And it's like you both know what's going on. And if you can just be like, yeah, this is hard right now, that can help a lot. If you can get to that kind of acknowledgement, then you can say, hey, so acknowledging that all that is happening, I also just want to bring up so that there's not another elephant in the room, like, let's talk about what we want to do about our sex life. How we want to look at our sex life in this challenging season that we are in. And that gives you the opportunity to say, hey, let's talk about it. Or do we feel like sex needs to be off the table until ABC happens, or until whatever, we can come to some kind of agreement on this thing that we're fighting about, or until— Whatever, until some threshold or goal is met. Or you might be able to say, hey, we still really love each other, even though this is challenging. Would we be open to try to have some physical intimacy? I think that you have the opportunity to talk about it, and you might be surprised at what your partner actually has to say once you get to that kind of acknowledgement of things together. And interestingly, if you are open to trying, like you might actually find yourselves feeling, starting to feel better about things in certain ways, or that physical intimacy sometimes can open the door to more conversations, more emotional connection, and more understanding. But don't push it.

Yeah.

That's what I would say.

Yeah, I mean, so think about it this way. Like, one of you— so let's say you have one person who wants to feel emotionally connected before sex. The other person wants to have sex in order to feel emotionally connected. One of you is going to have to compromise, right? Like, there is no meeting in the middle of like, well, we'll halfway have sex and halfway get emotionally connected. You can't do that. So one of you is going to have to compromise on the thing that you want to go first. So let's think about somebody who says, you know, I want to have sex first as a way of opening up emotional connection. Pushing yourself to connect emotionally first, it's not gonna be the thing that you want, but it also is a bit easier than somebody who's like, I don't feel safe enough to have sex with my partner right now. Like, my partner is feeling like a stranger to me. It's feeling like we are not on the same page. We're roommates. We are opponents right now. Like, somebody pushing themselves to have sex that they don't wanna have is really hard. And that is a one-way ticket to bad sex, to resentment, to frustration, to feeling even more disconnected. So that's, you know, that's why, like, we really think it is important for that emotional intimacy to come first. And to be totally honest with you, like, we've talked openly before about the fact that we're We're actually the reverse of the typical gender stereotype here. I'm someone who wants to have sex first in order to feel emotionally connected. Xander wants to feel emotionally connected before sex. And so I hate everything I'm saying right now because I'm like, no, no, no. The solution is just have sex first. It'll get better, I swear. And we have had seasons in our relationship where Xander was pushing himself to have sex You know, to reconnect, to feel closer, and it felt really shitty for you, right? And the sex itself—

Yeah, and it can cause performance, and then it can, you know, that's more likely to cause performance issues, which are more likely to make us feel more disconnected, and that's just like a downward spiral.

Yeah, and the sex also wasn't good. Like, and that was something really interesting for me to notice, thinking like, yeah, if we just have sex, it'll be better. And then we would have sex, and it would be bad sex, and we'd feel actually less emotionally connected afterwards. So even though my instinct was like, no, no, no, this is the way that we fix it and get closer, that actually wasn't happening in reality.

Though I will say one interesting thing that I was able to do, this only happened after I understood that I was a default to wanting a certain level of emotional connection before sex type of person. Before that, I would just sort of have this gut feeling of It is not safe to have sex. That's crazy. No. And I couldn't really put into words what that was, just like, this feels icky. Once I understood, oh, I think about it this way, Vanessa thinks about it that way. Once I understood that, then I was able to ask myself a very interesting question, which is not— because it's not that you have to have All the emotional connection in order to have sex. It's that I need to have a baseline level. And so I started to ask myself the question, what is the minimum or the baseline that I really need? And most people never ask themselves that question and never really truly think about it. And that is a really interesting thing to think about because that can help you realize— that helped me realize in a number of situations, okay, things do feel a little tense. And I love Vanessa, and things feel somewhat stable right now. Yeah, there's a couple things that maybe are bigger picture things we're not agreeing on that we can't tackle in this moment. But at the end of the day, like, I love her. I know she loves me. We're stable enough. You know what? I think I am open to it.

Mm-hmm.

Like, just being able to think about like, okay, where are things actually? I think that can be really helpful. So answer that question for yourself. Think about that. What is it that I truly need. Once you start going down that path, you will start to realize that these 2 types, these are not set in stone requirements. These are preferences. One person prefers sex to open emotional connection. One person prefers emotional connection to be open to sex. We can both work on Moving in the other direction.

Mm-hmm.

And so once I started realizing, oh, I can actually think about what is the minimum that I need and how far away am I from that? What could I actually ask for in order to get to the point of being more comfortable? I started realizing, oh, okay, I actually can change the way that I think. This is just a default way of thinking. But as I gain more awareness of myself, I can actually start to push the envelope a bit of where I fall. And now I think that I am more in the middle than I used to be. I still default to that. And I think that you have pushed yourself a little bit, you know, of realizing, hey, emotional connection is important. And it does feel good when we connect emotionally. Just like I realized, hey, it feels pretty great when we have sex. Afterwards, I'm really happy that we did it. Right? And afterwards, I do realize that we feel more emotionally connected. If it's good sex, you know, if it's not like I'm forcing myself to have sex. And then, God, surprise, surprise, I start thinking about wanting that feeling that we have after sex. And then all of a sudden, I'm wanting to have sex.

Yeah.

In order to feel connected. So it's all about the curiosity, getting curious about yourself. Hey, I'm hardwired to default to this way, but what do I really need? How could I push myself one step in the other direction? Yeah.

The last thing I'll say on this one is that if you're the partner of somebody who has a similar question like this, like if you're the person who wants to feel emotional intimacy before having sex, it really, really helps to at least talk about sex in your relationship.

Yes.

And to acknowledge to your partner like, hey, I know we're in a rough patch right now, I want us to work on the emotional intimacy first so that, you know, we feel closer to each other, so that sex feels safer. But I want you to know, like, I value our sex life too. I know that you're somebody who wants to connect physically first. That's the way that opens up emotional intimacy for you. So like, I want you to feel seen. I want you to feel understood in that. I want us to get back to a place of being physically intimate. That's why I, you know, Why I want us to work on that. Like, literally just those couple of sentences make all the difference in the world because you are asking your partner to put aside their preferred way of connecting and do something that maybe feels a little unnatural to them. And so just, just making that effort of acknowledging it will seriously go such a far way. I promise you. Sustainability is really important to us when it comes to our protein sources, which is why we were really excited to find out about Wild Alaskan Company. They offer the best way to get wild-caught, high-quality seafood delivered straight to your door on your schedule. So they send you these individually portioned filets. They're vacuum sealed, super, super easy to use. It's quick frozen fresh from Alaskan waters, so it helps lock in its freshness, texture, flavor, and the key nutrients. And it's fish that you can trust, which again is just so important to us. Like no GMOs, no antibiotics, no additives. Every order supports sustainable harvesting practices and Alaskan fishermen whose history is tied to the region. So we have tried, I think like every different varietal that they offer. We've tried, they have like sockeye salmon, coho salmon, Pacific halibut, Pacific cod, Pacific rockfish. I think my favorite thing that we've made so far is like fish tacos with the, the cod and the halibut are probably like tied for my 2 favorites. But seriously, everything that we've tried has been super delicious and it's just really convenient and easy. They also have a money-back guarantee, like 100% satisfaction. They will refund you every penny if you are not satisfied with it. Go to wildalaskan.com/pillow for $35 off your first order of premium wild-caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com/pillow. Okay, Xander, is it normal to have average sex consistently and once in a while it's mind-blowing?

Yes. And I would ask, How once in a while are we talking? Like, are we saying once a year it's mind-blowing? Are we saying once a month it's mind-blowing? Are we saying once a week it's mind-blowing? I would say for us, up until recently—

We've been on a tear lately. We've been on a fucking tear.

Thanks to—

Literally.

Thanks to something. Yes, thanks to something Vanessa's been working on. Um, but Up till recently, I would say that we would have mind-blowing sex maybe like once a month or once every— like we would have pretty darn good sex.

Okay.

And then we would maybe have like a, like once a month, a sort of like— we might have a couple sort of like peak experiences a year, usually when we're on vacation. And then at home we would maybe have like one like really—

Okay, if we're— yeah, if we're talking like Absolutely earth-shattering, like, whoa, what was that?

Like the ones you don't forget about.

Yeah, like that probably happens a couple times a year. I think, okay, so let's do it on like a 1 to 10 scale. We have a 10 out of 10, 11 out of 10, that'll happen a couple times a year. 9 out of 10, yeah, I think that would be like once a month or so where we're like, still got it, all right. The majority of the time we're having sex, I would say it's like a—

it's an 8.

I would say it's an 8. And then I would say—

7 to 8?

Yeah, 7 to 8.

I'm not trying to like set the bar so high for the people here.

No, no, no, no. I'm trying to be honest about it. Yeah, 7 to 8. And then I think we have maybe once or twice a week that are like a 6 to 7.

And that's usually like, hey, we don't have a lot of time.

Let's—

we want to do it. Let's, let's have an orgasm and get it done.

And I want to be really clear, like, I think there is a place in every relationship for good enough sex. I do think we put too much pressure on ourselves that like every time has to be mind-blowing. And that, to me, that just feels like too much pressure.

Well, you can't blow your mind if—

Every time.

If every time is mind-blowing, then mind-blowing ceases to be mind-blowing and is just average.

Yeah.

And then you're just having average sex.

Yeah.

All the time. And yeah, so there is no such thing as perfection all the time. Then that would just be par for the course, then that wouldn't be perfect anymore.

Yeah, and I think that good enough sex, it's good enough.

Yeah.

We still, yeah, we will have plenty of sex where it's like, yeah, we don't have a ton of time, or we're tired, or one partner's more into it than the other, and it's like, hey, let's get it done. We're both gonna have an orgasm. We're both gonna feel satisfied. We feel closer afterwards. There's nothing, there's no bells or whistles, There's no fireworks going off, but it's like, it's good enough. And I think there's really something about that that sustains a relationship, that keeps that momentum going, that keeps you feeling close to each other. And I think putting this pressure on ourselves to have every experience be spectacular is actually hurting us more than it's helping us. But here though, the person says—

Yeah, that being said—

It's just average sex. To me, average, I don't think they mean it's good enough. I think they mean it's like, it's a little ho-hum.

Truly average.

Average sounds like a 4 or 5, maybe.

Well, I mean, I guess maybe actually average of 1 to 10 would be a 5. But I mean, I guess, are we saying, are they saying average for us? Or are we saying, you know, average for everybody? Don't you want to be above average, people? That's why you're listening to our podcast, right?

Yeah, so I would say, I mean, okay, is it normal? I think most people, I think most couples are just having very ho-hum sex. You know, everybody is so fixated on desire. That's, you know, by far and away the number one topic we get asked about. Like, oh, I have no desire. I never want to have sex. I could go the rest of my life and never have sex again and I'd be fine. And the reality is it's not a desire problem. It's an enjoyment problem. You are having sex that is not worth craving. So actually, your body is doing the sensical, normal thing of like, yeah, that thing? Well, that's not fun. So yeah, of course I'm not gonna crave it. Why would I? It doesn't make any sense to. So that's what is happening for most couples. So yes, is it normal to have average sex? Yeah. Is that what you want out of your sex life? No, I don't think so. But again, let's not go to the other extreme where it's like every time has to be spectacular. And maybe that's another really great conversation to have with your partner. Like, take our scale, okay, the 1 to 10 scale, and tell your partner what our numbers were and say like, yeah, what do you think? Like, what should we aim for? What feels reasonable for us? And I would say don't— yeah, don't expect to have a 9 or a 10 every single time. It's too much pressure. But like, yeah, what do you think is— what number would you say is good enough Yeah, or where are you?

What do you think your average session is on a 1 to 10 scale? And what might— do you have any ideas of what you might need to have in order to bump that up 1 or 2 points?

I would only have this conversation if you guys are in a pretty good place. Like, you don't want to have like one partner being like, our average session is a 2. But like, I think it is an interesting— or maybe you don't even say, where do you think we are right now? Say like, what kinds— what numbers do you think Frame it as, hey, Vanessa and Zander were talking about couples put too much pressure on themselves to have it be spectacular every time. What do you think is reasonable? What percentage of our times would you say, hey, a 6 or 7, that's good enough, or 7 or 8, that's where we want to land most of the time, or how many times per year do you think a 10 out of 10 would be reasonable?

All right. Is it normal that clitoral stimulation can almost feel like it hurts?

Okay, interesting question. So clitoral stimulation can sometimes have— come with a sensation that some women will describe as hurts so good, where the vast majority of what you're feeling is pleasure, but there is this little tinge of like something else. And this is a really tough question to answer because Because a huge percentage of women experience pain during intercourse.

Legitimate sexual pain, not hurts so good pain.

Yeah, there are legitimate sexual pain conditions where it's pain inside, pain right at the entrance. You can have pain around your labia, and I'm certainly not a pain expert. It's something that I always tell people, if you experience any pain, you need to see a pelvic floor physical therapist or a pelvic pain specialist. So I wanna be really careful that like if this genuinely feels like pain, uncomfortable, tugging, pulling, irritation, anything like that like is not normal and should be checked out by somebody else. And I would probably just get checked out regardless to like have some peace of mind and make sure nothing's wrong. Also you can, there are things called clitoral adhesions too which can create like discomfort and tugging around the clitoris itself. So I would see a doctor.

Yeah.

Or a pelvic pain specialist just to make sure everything's cleared. But if what you're talking about is more the sense of like, no, no, no, it's more what you described first, like that it mostly feels good, but there's that little 10% hint of something else, then that is normal. And that typically can happen when you're getting really close to orgasm too. It's just this It's so hard to describe it. I've experienced it myself sometimes too, where, yeah, I would not describe it as pain. It's not a sensation of like, ooh, I want to stop this. It's not feeling good anymore. I don't like it. It's a sensation of like, oh, this feels really good, but there's a little like, there's a little something to it.

Could this also though be a direct versus indirect stimulation? Issue. To me, my first thought on this is this may be someone that prefers indirect clitoral stimulation. And when they're getting direct clitoral stimulation— because very often men go, oh, yeah, I'm supposed to rub the shit out of that clit.

Yeah.

Right? Like you are getting stimulation that actually does feel painful to you because you have a preference for a different type of stimulation.

Yes. So yeah, absolutely. It can be you're touching it too directly. So like you said, a lot of partners can get excited and think like, oh yeah, the clitoris, the magic button. Let me rub the hell out of it.

I finally found it. Let me use it.

But a lot of women actually prefer indirect stimulation. Like you keep your underwear on and you rub over that, or you rub through the labia, or you rub around the sides of the clitoris, not directly touching the clitoris. You know what? Speaking of clitoris, I just realized we had all those workers in here yesterday and my clit model is out on the desk, my clit and vulva model.

Well, I mean, our book Sex Talks is featured. We have our New York Times bestselling plaque. We have the book sitting right here. We have your bookshelf full of sex books, literally crammed full.

I know, but it's like—

Like 100 sex books.

I think that— There's a gold vulva just sitting on the desk.

Nice.

Yeah, anyways, I'm gonna maybe clear that out next time we have people in the office. Anyways, it might be, yeah, you're being too direct or too rough with the clitoris, so I would try stimulating it indirectly. I would try being a lot gentler. I would also try using lube too. Lube can make the whole, like all the sensations feel a lot more pleasurable. Okay, Xander, how do I tell my husband to switch things up with foreplay? How do you do foreplay without him thinking that he's not good enough? Ho ho ho. The fragile male ego.

How do you protect it? The fragile male ego. There are a small percentage of men that do truly have this fragile male ego, and they really ruin things for the rest of us because people get so concerned that, oh my God, maybe my partner will have this fragile male ego reaction, that we then don't share things. And in reality, most guys are like, hey, if there's something that's going to be more pleasurable for you, fuck yeah, I want to do that. I want to be doing that yesterday. Because at the end of the day, the vast, vast, vast majority of men just want to see their partner feeling good. I derive way more pleasure when I see you getting a lot of pleasure. Back to the question on how often it is I have mind-blowing sex, I truly find that the better orgasm you have, the better orgasm I have. Like, literally just watching you having an amazing orgasm, like, usually I just come right away because I'm like, damn, that is incredible. Like, I can't help myself. And mine is better. And I think most men, once you realize like, oh yeah, the cheat code is not me just getting off. Like, the reason I'm in a relationship is because Because I want to create this thing together and see you having a really great time. That's how I feel really close to you. So I think that one, we should try to be less concerned about, oh my God, he's not going to think he's good enough. But that being said, I think a great idea is you start. Buy our foreplay guides. Amazing new techniques to try out on him. And when he goes, oh my god, what the fuck did you just do to me? That was incredible. I am shook. Then you say, oh, I bought a little something that had a bunch of tips on how to give an amazing blowjob or an amazing handjob. And, well, surprise, surprise, it also happened to have all the tips for fingering me and for going down on me.

Mm-hmm.

And since that was super fun for you. Why don't we look at this together and think about what— I want you to show me which other new techniques you want me to try on you, and I'd love to show you a couple I'd love you to try on me.

Yeah, the guides are such a great way to open this up without making it seem like you're not being good enough, because the guides are all about exploring together, and it's not from the sense of, hey, things are really bad, so you need to get better at it. Like, the whole way the guides are framed is that there's a million possibilities of things that you can do together. So let's show you a specific way to explore these things together, to have fun with each other. And like, built into the foreplay guides is we talk about like, not every technique is gonna work for every person. So we give you a framework for being able to talk about those techniques with each other, and it really takes the pressure off. Like, this is not about You have to try it and just nail it immediately. It's like, no, let me explore this. Let me try that. Let me try this on you. Like, every body is unique. But if you approach it from a perspective of like, I love having sex with you. I love trying new things on you. I love seeing like, can I, you know, top myself? Can I make the experience better and better and better for you? Like, that sounds so fun and sexy. And if you're telling your partner like, yeah, I wanna keep exploring with you. Then I think that makes that sound really fun and connecting. Obviously, if you go to your partner and say, hey, I hate your foreplay and you really need to mix it up. So here's the login to these foreplay guides. Please read them and come back when you're better. Like, obviously, if you present it like that, your partner's going to feel hurt, feel like they're not good enough, feel sad. But if you do what Xander said, like, you could do it 2 ways. You can do it as a surprise of like, you do something to your partner. Do some new things that you found from the foreplay guides, and then they're like, whoa, where did you learn that?

Because they're gonna notice.

Yeah, then that's a nice gentle way to introduce it. Or the second option is just say like, I found something very exciting and sexy online for us to explore together, and I got it, and I can't wait to go through it with you. Like, as long as you're saying it in an excited, upbeat, fun way, your partner picks up on your tone. and knows like, oh, okay, that sounds fun.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, I also, I do want to encourage all couples to keep exploring. I know we've all heard the advice, keep it spicy, and it just, it sounds so like trite. You're like, yeah, yeah, keep it spicy, whatever, I know. But genuinely, it is good advice. There is so much to explore. I mean, we recently revamped these foreplay guides. Like, each time we've revamped them, I'm like, these are complete. Like, these are so good. Every technique that I know of, every technique that I think is good or worth exploring is here. And then we revamp them and I'm like, oh my god, I just added so many new things. Like, we are always exploring and finding new things.

Yeah, speaking, speaking of which, we literally just released a bunch of new positions in our Ultimate Sex Guide. And then last night, yeah, we did 2 new ones. And we were We were like, oh shit, one of them was okay and the other one was great. And we were like, well, okay, we're gonna have to hold on to that one.

Yeah, there's always something new to explore and that's what makes having sex with the same person for the rest of your life worth doing, to continue exploring and discovering and like, oh, and about yourself too. Like, oh, I didn't realize I liked that. Oh, I didn't realize my body could get into that position. Oh, I swear I'd tried that in the past and I never really liked it, but now I like it. Like, there's something so exciting about feeling like you get to know your own body over again and feeling like you get to know your partner's body over again. So regardless of if you get something from us, you know, you buy something from our company or not, like, I do want to encourage every couple to have that attitude of exploration, of like trying to get to know each other, to keep getting to know each other over and over and over again. That's how we keep the passion alive. That's how we don't fall into the trap of being roommates.

Mic drop.

All right, well, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.