E275: Reasonable or Ridiculous

Both people play a role in every single conflict or issue between a couple. There is really no such thing as like one person being 100% responsible. Sometimes it's like 99.9% and 0.1%. Hello and welcome to the Pillow Talks podcast. We're your hosts, Vanessa and Xander Marin.

I'm a sex therapist with over 20 years of experience, and I'm just a regular dude. We share the ups and downs in our relationship. While giving you step-by-step techniques for improving yours.

Make sure you subscribe for your weekly double date full of totally doable sex tips, practical relationship advice, hilarious and honest stories of what really goes on behind closed bedroom doors, and so much more. It's the sex education you wish you'd had. This week we're back with another round of Reasonable or Ridiculous. This is one of our favorite series where we ask the couples in our community to share with us Arguments, disagreements, recurring issues that they're having with their partner. And they ask us to weigh in on whether we think it is a reasonable request that their partner is making or a reasonable thing that their partner wants, or if it's just an absolutely ridiculous situation.

Yeah, let us be the referee. Why not?

I mean, I love these episodes because they're always really interesting to find out what's going on with other couples. Like what's really going on? What are the issues that they're There are some really interesting stories in this episode. And I also think it's just a great conversation opener between couples too. Like, there are so many— like, you may not have had these particular situations in your relationship, but it gives you this chance to say, hey, what do you think about this? We've never talked about this aspect of our relationship. We've never talked about this boundary before. We've never talked about this kind of request before. What do you think about it?

Yeah, what would we do if this happened?

This is the kind of episode that I think is really fun to listen to like on a road trip or when you're in the car running errands. Like hear the story, pause it, talk about it amongst yourselves, then come back and press play and see what we said and see like did you— did we agree with you? Did we have a totally different take than you did? I just think these are really fun. Before we get into the stories though, we have a super quick request of you. Can you just grab your phone and tap that little subscribe button right next to the Pillow Talks podcast? I know it doesn't seem like like that big of a deal, but it honestly makes such a big difference. The vast, vast, vast majority of people who listen to this podcast every single week are not subscribed, and it genuinely helps the podcast get in front of new people, be able to help more couples. So it literally takes half a second, no effort from you, but it really, really helps. So we would be so appreciative if you could do that. And if you want a gold star, leaving a rating or review also like really goes the extra mile. I mean, I was just looking at a new I was looking at our podcast the other day and it had like 3.5 stars total. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna do it. Like, people wanna know. They wanna see that a podcast is well-reviewed. And fortunately ours is, but like, we like to really keep it that way.

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Okay, let's get into the stories. I'll read the first one. Is it reasonable for me to expect my husband to overcome his fear of rejection and start initiating again, Even though it's my fault he stopped in the first place.

I have questions about this one even before hearing the entire thing.

She's got the backstory.

I just want to say, let's just flag for later that even though it's my fault he stopped in the first place, I think this person might be falling on the sword preemptively. But let's get into it.

Here's the backstory. We've got 4 kids, 3 together and 1 from his previous relationship. We're together 14 years, married 4. He used to initiate all the time, but when we were in the throes of early parenthood, sleepless nights and being touched out, I was constantly rejecting his initiations and actually being mean, which I feel horrible for now. For the last 4 to 5 months, we have been listening to you guys, mainly me, and we are both delighted with how much our relationship and sex life has improved.

Yay!

We bought The Art of Initiation and learned so much about each other, but one thing is that I want him to be direct and clear with me by initiating verbally, and he just can't overcome the fear of feeling like a dick if I'm not interested, so he's trying to be physical and wait for me to take it further.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. What do you think? Is it reasonable or ridiculous for her to want him to overcome his fear of rejection and start initiating again?

Well, before I even answer that question, I think the interesting thing is this person, she asks a different question at the end that, I mean, I think what she's implying is, is it reasonable of her to want him to initiate directly? I don't think that she's saying, I want him to be the sole initiator.

Correct.

I think she's just saying, Now that we took Art of Initiation, I better understand the various types of initiation styles. And I would suspect that she has a style that prefers direct verbal initiation. All that she is asking for is for him to initiate directly with words rather than physically. I do not think that that is ridiculous. That is not unreasonable. That is—

So it's reasonable.

That is highly reasonable. Yes. That being said, yes, we do have to consider the history of what has happened. I think that I'm, in general, I'm always sort of suspicious when someone goes, oh, well, it's my fault that my husband doesn't initiate. Like, I think that in almost all of these situations, relationship dynamics, like, we each play a part in that. I don't think it's necessarily like, I am the only reason that this is happening. I get that she was mean.

I don't know. Yes, there are always— both people play a role in every single conflict or issue between a couple. There is really no such thing as like one person being 100% responsible. Sometimes it's like 99.9% and 0.1%. But I mean, I appreciate the vulnerability of her saying, I was mean.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's hard to admit. So I appreciate her being willing to do that. But also like, I think it makes a lot of sense if you're— if for this guy, if his partner is not only— it's not just turning down the advances, it's being mean about it. Yeah, I think it's reasonable for the husband to say, hey, you've been mean to me about this, like my feelings are hurt, I feel super vulnerable, I am gonna stop initiating. You can't do that for life, but I think it's reasonable for him to have stopped for a period.

Okay, here's what I don't know, because, because, you know, there's nothing about this in the response that the person gave. So I think the typical When this happens is that one person stops initiating because the other person is mean to them, is always saying no, is doing something that doesn't feel good. But it's not that they just stop, it's that typically the person stops initiating without saying anything to the other person. It's more of a— it's sort of like a test. Oh, okay, well, she's going to be mean to me. I'm just going to stop. And see what she thinks about that. But I think if this is the situation that it typically is, where it's sort of like he stops because he's like, oh, well, she's never going to say yes, so let's wait. Let's just stop initiating, wait and see how long it is. I think that that is— I don't know if it's necessarily like an equal role, but you are playing a role. You're giving an unspoken test to your partner to see how long it's going to be before they notice. And so you're actually both— both of you are doing something kind of mean.

So, okay, here's what I think needs to happen with this couple. I think, and I hope this already has happened, but for the woman to apologize and to like really take full ownership. Hey, looking back now, I realized I was super mean when you were initiating. I'm really sorry that I did that. It was not okay. You didn't deserve that. I'm making a, you know, promise to you going forward that even if you initiate and I'm not in the mood, like, I'm never gonna be mean to you again. I also would have them talk about what are gentler ways that she can let him down. And that is in Art of Initiation, so I'm sure you guys have gone through that. There are like specific techniques in there for how to do that so that he can really start to get that reassurance of, okay, even if, you know, I initiate and she's not in the mood, I know that I'm gonna get turned down in a way that's like respectful, kind, gentle. There's still gonna be other ways of connecting. That's one of the big secrets of the Art of Initiation. I think what they could do is say— she could say something like, Okay, if I was their therapist, I would say, how about we agree on some sort of temporary period of time where she is going to do the majority of the initiating? And if he was trying to initiate physically, that's what feels better for him, that's okay. So let's settle on a period of time. Maybe it's like 2 months, 3 months, or something like that.

Mm-hmm.

But the understanding is that he's got to work back to initiating. Because ultimately, while I understand, I think any human in their right mind If they're initiating and their partner's being mean to them, any human is gonna say, well, fuck that. I'm not initiating anymore.

Yeah.

I understand that, but that cannot be a lifelong pattern. He's got to start initiating. So it's fine if there's this little temporary period where it's like, okay, for a while she's gonna do all the initiating. You can just, you know, lay back for a while, but you are gonna need to start initiating at a certain point. Then at that point when it's time for him to start initiating again, I would have them take baby steps into it. So if right now the idea for him of saying like, hey, I'd really like to be intimate with you right now. Are you open to that? If that just feels way too scary, way too vulnerable, what they could do is have some sort of code word that's like, when I say this word, this is what I mean. But like, it's just easier to say something like leaf or elephant rather than like—

Or maybe something sexier.

Maybe something sexier. What, bra?

Naked?

I don't know.

Anything.

Get creative. Whip. I don't know. Whatever you guys want to come up with.

Wimp cuffs.

I think you could, yeah, have some sort of baby step into it.

I think another thing, this is only if she is open to it, is what you could say is, you know, in this first week that you are going to dabble your toes into initiation.

Dabble your toes.

Wow. Or sorry, just dabble. Dip your toes.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Dip your toes into—

That was a real Vanessa-ism of you.

Dip your toes back into the world of initiation. You could say, you could give a guarantee, like, I will commit to saying yes in any situation during this next week, during the next 2 weeks, because that is a way to sort of throw a bone, so to speak, an acknowledgment.

Yes.

Hey, I know that I did something that really contributed to you feeling uncomfortable, and your fear is that I'm going to say no, and that's going to make you feel like a dick.

Mm-hmm.

I would want to investigate that feeling like a dick part of it. That's something probably to dig into, because in the future, she will say no. We will all say no to initiation sometimes. And so we need to find a way to be like, hey, me being a dick or a good person is not tied one-to-one to whether my partner says yes. And I understand that there's a history and why you have that association, but that is something that we can't just go, oh, you hurt me in this way, and now I always will have this connection. That's not gonna work.

Yeah.

So that is one option. I also just want to clarify the reason why I was really kind of nitpicking on like, hey, this can't all be her fault, is that I do think that, yeah, we in relationships, we often, we sometimes do shitty things to each other. But we can't set up a dynamic where it's like, hey, you did X, Y, and Z to me, this one time or during this period of time, and that really hurt, therefore I am permanently excused from doing ABC.

Mmhmm.

That's— that is not going to be successful in a relationship. And I think that that's sort of a reason why it's not really healthy to think about relationship conflict or damage as like all one person or all another person. It's like we all have some role to play in things, even if the role that the other person plays is really negligible. I do think, though, that's like a powerful way to to help us start to understand like, okay, we can't set up this thing where it's like, oh, well, you hurt me, so therefore I will never do blah, blah, blah again. Like, because that's just gonna, that's just gonna create problems. And it's gonna create an imbalanced power dynamic too, that is going to cause you problems in conflict. I don't think that's what anybody wants. So that's, that's kind of why I was, I was, I was talking about that.

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Yeah. Okay. He wants sex a certain number of times a month and refuses to give on it. We both have had very busy schedules and, well, when illnesses, stress, busyness, and life in general gets in the way, he gets frustrated if we don't do it X amount of times in that month. I don't think there's a minimum quote we should be trying to meet every month, but he does.

Ridiculous. What do you say?

Ridiculous-ish. Like, the number, the quota thing is Yes, the quota is extremely problematic. Because what if it's like, what if it's like, okay, I don't— I'm just gonna make up a number. What if you're like, okay, Mike, the quota is 10 times a month? I'm totally just throwing out round numbers here, guys. The quota is 10 times a month. So what if like, and you're tracking that. So does that mean that, oh, if you have— if you do it 9 times for like 4 months in a row, that those 4 months have just been shit months? And like, Versus like, how would having sex one more time over the course of an entire month somehow swing things from like good to bad? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

People get too fixated on numbers. I think it's really arbitrary and random and just super unhelpful to be focused on it. That being said, like we are big proponents of people having more sex.

Yeah, have a lot of sex. You're probably going to be happier.

But having this This set number in your head is ridiculous. Also, what I don't like about this question is that it sounds like he is the one who has set the number. And why do you get to be the boss in the relationship and pick what the number is and your partner has no say on the number? Like, that's not okay. The other flag that I have here is the word frustrated.

Yeah.

Frustrated can go either way. So when it comes to sex, there's always going to be someone in a relationship who is not getting as much sex as they ideally would like to be having. You're going to have that in 99% of relationships. It's extremely rare for both partners to want sex at the exact same time every single time, right?

So the 1% that you're referring to are people who are asexual folks in relationships?

I mean, yeah, yeah, maybe there's 1% of people who are like, oh no, we literally do just want sex every single time each other does. Okay, my point I'm trying to make is that it is— you are like going to have— and even if you have almost the same sex drive, you're probably gonna have certain instances. Maybe I want to have sex on Monday and you don't, but you want to have sex on Tuesday and I don't, right? Like, you're gonna have times where you're not having sex And you want to be having it. It is okay for you to feel disappointed about that. Like, you want something, you want to connect. And again, this is where we need to remember that sex is more than sex. Sex is about connection with our partner, about intimacy, closeness. Like, you want to feel close to your partner and your partner isn't open to that. You get to feel disappointed. In the same sort of way, like, imagine that But I ask you, hey, do you want to go on a date night tonight? And you're like, no, actually, I'm like, I'm too tired and I just don't want to go out. Like, I actually wanted to have some alone time. People would be really— people would understand me feeling disappointed. Like, wow, I wanted to go on a date night with you and you said no to me. I think most people would feel really empathetic with me. But when it comes to sex, people are like, yeah, whatever. Like, we don't extend it the same respect that we do with emotional connection.

Yeah, they're like, I wanted to have sex tonight and you said no. Get over it. You wanted to have sex?

Get over it. But it's important to recognize, like, yeah, you wanted to connect with your partner and you're not able to, and that's okay to be disappointed. Frustrated— frustrated is really toeing the line for me because what you are not allowed to get angry at your partner. You're not allowed to throw a tantrum. You're not allowed to make your partner feel guilty. You're not allowed to pressure your partner into changing your mind. You're not allowed to make your partner feel like a bad person. So frustrated, I could see going either way. Frustrated could be like, damn, I really wanted to connect with you and I'm frustrated that I don't get to. Or frustrated could be, hey, we're supposed to have sex 10 times a month and I'm really frustrated that you're not doing that for me.

Yeah.

Like, see, it could go either way. If it's more in that second way of like getting angry, getting aggressive, being grumpy, being mad, like that is not okay. And I worry The way that this question is written, I worry that it's going more in that direction.

Yeah.

And that's not okay.

So the reason I said ridiculous-ish—

Yeah, I was like—

No, it's because it is completely reasonable to want to be having more sex in general than you are. That is totally fine. The ridiculous part is the, one, the quota, and two, I'm— I don't know why I keep getting fixated on this— the monthly nature Of the quota is bothering me. I would almost feel less bothered if it was a weekly thing, because weekly would at least get at, okay, if we're having it at least X number of times a week, then there's some measure of regularity, which is a reasonable thing. Many people, it is important to them to have regular sex. Now, it's not okay to be like, it has to be 4 times a week, otherwise I'm going to be unhappy. That is unreasonable, because Because life happens, things happen, people get sick, people get busy. It's not reasonable to be like, it has to be this number, any less and I will be disappointed.

Yeah.

I will be frustrated, whatever. I would try to get rid of that and focus instead on the quality and the regularity. If having regular sex is important to you, then that's something you need to find a way to communicate clearly to your partner, and ideally to really tie it to connection, because that is what sex is all about.

Yeah.

Connection, feeling close, being able to be playful with your partner, being able to be vulnerable with your partner, about how important it is for you to have those regular touchpoints. And then also be willing to be flexible.

Be flexible.

And how— what could I do to contribute to you being more open to this, to making more space for you?

If—

because this person is saying, we're really busy, we're stressed, all these things. So it's like, all right, if you are wanting more regularity and you are wanting more frequency, then what can you take responsibility for to try to free more of that time up for your partner?

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I would really phrase it that way. It's totally okay for him to say something like, our intimacy is really important to me. The times that we have sex are so special to me. It's when I feel the most vulnerable. It's when I feel the closest to you. You know, give her specific— or, you know, whatever your partner's gender is— give your partner specific reasons why intimacy is so meaningful to you. And it's reasonable to say, I'm like, I want us to make sure we prioritize this. Yes, life is always busy. We are always gonna have other things on our plates, but it's really important to me that we make sure to prioritize us. And so that's reasonable, but yeah, having this specific quota that they have to hit is not okay, and him getting upset about it is certainly not okay.

Yeah.

Okay, here's our next one. He wants oral as a part of every sexual experience, not always to completion, but he wants it in the mix somewhere, beginning, middle, or end. I'm not always in the mood for oral.

What about just a tiny peck on the dick?

It's oral.

I'm going to say ridiculous. I'm not going to say ridiculous. It's unreasonable.

No, that's not the episode. It's not reasonable or unreasonable.

It is ridiculous in this context of like, it has to be every time. And here's why it's ridiculous. Because I just came up with a loophole to make him happy of, oh, okay, well, yeah, I gave, you know, lip or tongue to dick. Boom, you're done. You had it. What are you pissed about? Because I think that it doesn't make sense to be like, It would be one thing if it was like, look, blowjobs to me are far and away better than any other sex act. And that is what I would rather have. Like, I would rather my sex life look like oral sex, if that's something that's really, really important to you. But it's clearly, that's not what it's about. 'Cause he's saying, I just want it in some form. Doesn't need to be the whole time. Just like, And so if I can come up with some silly little loophole to meet your criteria, where clearly you're not really giving oral, just a literal peck on the dick.

No, I disagree with you. I disagree. I'm actually struggling with this one because like—

I am too. I just said ridiculous only because it feels sort of like an arbitrary quota type thing.

No, like my bottom line is always I don't want people to force or pressure themselves into doing things that they genuinely don't wanna do. And I think it is very reasonable to say, hey, I'm not always in the mood to give oral. Like, that makes sense to me. That's okay. You're allowed to have that boundary. But the idea of somebody wanting some form of oral every single time, I think that's also reasonable. Like, because he's specifically saying it does not have to always be to completion. He's giving a lot of freedom of like, yeah, it could be at the beginning, it could be the middle, the end. So to me, it doesn't sound demanding, first of all. It doesn't sound like he's like, I will not be satisfied if my dick isn't in your mouth 10 times per month. This sounds like a different kind of vibe to me than the question that we just had before.

You're right.

So, okay, I've figured it out. I figured out where I land. It is reasonable for him to want oral every single time. And it is reasonable for you to say no to that.

There we go.

Okay.

There we go. I'm on board with that. I think the other— sorry, our dog is bumping into the tripod right now. She's wandering around. Now she's lost and stuck. Oh, god. She's stuck under a chair. Oh, there you go. There's one way out.

Oh, boy. She's stuck in the wires now. We really need to have like another camera that comes this way.

We need a wire-free zone.

You can have like a Maggie cam. Oh, geez.

Oh, god. Blind old dog. In the obstacle course.

It's really an obstacle course because we have like tripods for 3 different cameras. We have tripods for 2 different lights. There's a chair back there.

There's a desk back there. Charging cables for all of that.

There's like 7 different charging cables and there's one tiny little blind dog just wandering around in all of it. She just hit Xander's camera.

Okay.

Do I need to go get her and put her in my lap?

Yeah, I think you do.

Okay. We just had to take a quick break to bring Maggie up here. But yeah, yeah. Where I land is, It's reasonable on both ends.

Oh yeah.

And I actually like, like I want both of them to express their needs and boundaries here. I think too often we get into relationships where it's like, well, I want this thing, you don't want that thing, we're in conflict, like we're not on the same page. And there's usually a tendency for one or even both partners to try to like shy away from that of like, okay, Well, fine, she's not gonna give me oral every time. I'm not even gonna ask anymore because she doesn't want to, or he doesn't want to, whatever it is. And then, you know, the other person to be like, well, I'm not even— I don't even wanna express this anymore. But I think this is an example of a time that it's actually really good for you guys to continue— not continually, but to like, to express that. Because both of these things are okay. Like, it is totally okay for him to say, I just love having my dick in your mouth. It feels so good to me. It feels— This is the other thing about blowjobs. We just updated our, we're in the process of updating our Ultimate Foreplay Guides and we put a ton of like, we did a ton of polls of men and we asked, one of the questions we asked is what do you wish women really understood about foreplay that you don't think they do? And one of the most common responses we got from men was a blowjob is one of the most intimate things you can do. And I know we have, I think especially as women, we have this stereotype, it's like a blowjob, it feels demeaning. Yeah, it's like something—

It's like an extra you have to do.

That's what you see in porn though, that it's like super demeaning and they're just, you know, wanting to make her uncomfortable and making her gag. You know, like blowjobs in porn are disgusting for the most part, unfortunately. And so I think a lot of women have this just negative opinion of it in their minds. But so many men said like, I never feel more loved and accepted than during that. I never feel more desirable. A lot of men were like, I know there's this stereotype that it's this like degrading thing that men do to women, but like, she does not ever have any more control over me than she does in those moments.

Yeah.

Like, she is utterly and completely in control. I am at her mercy. Like, it's such a powerful position for her to be in. So yeah, again, long-winded way of me saying this, but I think it's really reasonable for him to want to have that intimate experience. And maybe like, if the partner is a woman, maybe her— maybe the two of them talking about Like, this is a perfect example of pause right now and talk to your partner. If you're a woman and you have a male partner, go ask him, like, what is it really like when I give you a blowjob? 'Cause to me, I have this idea in my head that it's like demeaning and it's, you know, kind of gross, and I wanna know what it's actually like for you.

Yeah, like it's this thing that you want that I'm not supposed to really wanna give.

Yeah, and I think you would be really surprised to hear men talk about, like, obviously it feels good, like, of course you're doing it.

Why do we have sex?

But I think a lot of women would be surprised to hear how emotional it is for a lot of men. So that's his end. And then yeah, for the partner, yeah, you're allowed to say like, hey, I don't want to do that every time. But I do— I would kind of consider like—

Worth maybe investigating what's coming up for you.

Yeah, like he's giving you a lot of leeway here. It's just like, yeah, at some point, just for a little bit, I'd really like that. And I don't think that that's a very hard thing to do. I think we all should be willing to be giving and generous to our partners. Like, there are certain aspects of sex that you like more than I like, and I probably wouldn't do those things as often if I was with another partner. But because you like them, I'm happy to do them.

Yeah.

I, you know, I do things, certain things to make you happy and to make sure you have a better experience. And I think that's a really good quality. I do it for you. Yeah, exactly. If it wasn't a two-way street, or if there was any sort of, you know, whatever, if other like icky dynamics in there, of course not. But like, yeah, we are both giving and generous with each other.

I think this is also an interesting one. I realized after I said ridiculous, I do want to revise my answer, because I played the flip the genders game and it gets a little interesting here when you do that.

If this is a woman?

If this is a woman saying I need more than just intercourse.

Yeah.

I need clitoral stimulation in order to have an orgasm. Now, that clitoral stimulation can be either manual or oral, right? It can be done with the hands or it can be done with the mouth. But many women have a strong preference for one over the other in terms of, do they prefer getting, you know, like, do they get a finger giving the clitoral stimulation, or for them is really the easiest way for them to orgasm via oral sex. There are a lot of women that would say, yeah, like, I need, I need 5 minutes of oral sex.

Yeah.

That's how I have an orgasm. And, you know, and like, that to me, that orgasm is much better than us having intercourse and like trying to finger myself at the same time. And like, you know, it's a different thing. There, there are many women that would say And if that is your experience of how sex is enjoyable to you, then that is not unreasonable, right? I guess what's a little different about this though is that it's not him saying, this is what I need in order to have an orgasm. He's not saying that. He's not saying, I need a certain amount of time because it's the only way for me to get to a certain level of pleasure. He's not saying that. It is just a preference thing. So I do agree with you. It's totally reasonable for him to express That's his preference. And it's totally reasonable for you to also say, I hear that that's your preference. I would like to do that as much as I am open to it. And I'm not going to always be 100% open to it every time. I do think that it is worth you examining though, what is it that is making you not open to, say, 20 seconds of oral sex?

That's such a good point because I think the vast majority, like if you ask the average person, Hey, there's a woman who is asking her partner, like, I'd love for you to go down on me at some point, just for a little bit. It doesn't have to be completion, beginning, middle, or end. I don't mind, but just at some point, I would love for that to happen. I think the average person would be like, oh my God, absolutely. Her partner should totally do that. But I think if you ask the average person, it's a guy and he wants a blowjob, the average person would be like, no.

No blowjobs.

Yeah, yeah. I think we look at blowjobs in a much more negative light. than we look at oral sex on a woman.

Yeah, I mean, I see why we do that, because typically the distinguishing factor is like oral sex for a woman is you are stimulating the part that gives— that we know gives her the most pleasure, versus for the man, yeah, you're stimulating the part that gives the most pleasure, but manual intercourse and oral all stimulate that same thing. There's no like, oh, it's a different part. That is being stimulated. So that's slightly different. I do wonder though, I don't think most women who are saying, I want oral, are not necessarily saying, I want any amount at any amount of time. It's typically more of a, oh, I need about this long in order to get me to a certain level so that I can enjoy the rest of the experience. So I think that typically that one is a little more conditional where it's like, hey, I need a certain amount of this so that I can So I can get to a certain place. So it is a little different, but I do think that from a logical perspective, once you start flipping the genders, you're like, okay, yeah, that's really not so unreasonable.

Yeah, I agree. So I would encourage if the partner, like, as long as you don't have any sort of like trauma against giving oral or any sort of complications like that, I would encourage you to think about doing it more often. I would encourage you to realize that, yeah, your partner, it's not a huge ask and your partner's giving you a lot of flexibility within the ask as well. So I would try to consider being a more generous partner.

And hey, I would also think of this as an opportunity for you. Is there something that you would like every single time? Would you like oral every single time too? Would you like him to spend a couple minutes fingering you?

Maybe more kissing.

Yeah, like what is it that you would like? This is an opportunity for you to say, say, okay, I can see that that's really important to you. I've thought about it, and I would like to do that as much as possible. I can't commit to like 100% no matter what, because, you know, who knows? I have a sore throat. I don't want to suck your dick. Um, but, you know, I've also been thinking, and there's something that I might like too. It's a good opportunity.

Yeah.

That might be a way for you to feel better about— because it might also feel like an imbalanced power dynamic too, if it's just like, oh, there's just this something that he wants every time, but like, I don't want or need anything, or I'm not gonna get anything out of this, then, you know, hey, maybe this is something you can both give to each other. Yeah.

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All right. He likes to use the word pussy when he's doing dirty talk and I can't stand it. Is it reasonable for me to ask him to stop saying it? I don't want to discourage the dirty talk or make him feel bad. I just don't want to hear that word during sex.

Reasonable.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think we all have different relationships to different words. Most women that I know don't like the word pussy, and I have been trying to reclaim that word.

You've been pro-pussy.

I've been pro-pussy. I use it a lot in Finishing School, our female orgasm course. Yeah, I want women to like feel empowered by that word, not to feel kind of icked out by that word. But at the end of the day, most people have pretty strong reactions to different words. And I think it is okay to make a request of your partner to not use a word. I can also understand from the partner's perspective, like, it might feel like a bummer.

Yeah.

And honestly, like, there aren't very— there's no word I prefer more than pussy.

Yeah.

There just aren't good words for female genitalia. Nobody's gonna be like, my vagina, touch my vagina.

Yeah, so that was going to be my next question.

Insert yourself into my vagina. Insert yourself?

That's not medical.

And then other than that, it's just like dumb jokes, you know, like beaver and taco and, you know, all that kind of stuff that like, ugh.

So I think that is a good question for this person is, what is your next best alternative to pussy? What would you like him to call your vagina during dirty talk? Because if your answer Well, I'd rather him just not say anything about it, then my concern is that that desire is coming from a sex-negative, a shameful place. Yeah.

And not that it's your fault, but that you've been socialized to—

Yeah, you've been socialized. We've all in many ways been socialized to be very sex-negative. We have to recognize though that living that out the rest of our lives is not beneficial to us or to our partner or to our future sex Mm-hmm. And so if your desire is, oh, I kind of just wish that he would never even mention anything about my genitals. I want him to do stuff to my genitals, but I don't want to have to talk about or say it because that's icky.

Yeah.

That is like, yeah, that is— you're kind of missing the point of sex.

Yeah.

So if you don't have an alternative, then there might be some work for you to do. It's an invitation for you to do some work on where that kind of sex negativity or shame is coming up for you, and what can you do to try to overcome that? It sounds like, if I'm reading between the lines, it sounds like he's been saying pussy a lot recently for a while. You can't stand it, and yet you haven't said anything because you're concerned about making him feel bad, or you're concerned that he will stop dirty talking. Most of us want to engage in dirty talk because it is very hot and sexy and exciting to have an exchange with your partner, right? Like, like an honest, vulnerable, in-the-moment, a real exchange. It's not like I just want to say some shit and get off on that. It's like, I want you to communicate back to me. I want you to be as turned on by it as I am.

Mm-hmm.

That's what dirty talk is all about. And so I think that it might be a bit of a challenging conversation because he's going to realize that for a long time he's been saying something that's made you feel really uncomfortable. And so I would invite you to realize that you trying to save him from this discomfort, you are actually creating more discomfort. I do think that you might need to have a bit of a conversation where you take some ownership for the fact of like, hey, this has been something that's been going on for a while. I should have said something a long time ago. I mean, unless you would advise her to say like, oh, I've just started to realize I don't like this word.

That might also— I probably would. Yeah, that to me falls under I think that's sort of the category of like, yeah, we generally don't advocate lying to your partner, but I think telling your— who knows how long this has been going on.

It would undo harm, perhaps.

I think it would do a lot of harm if your partner's been doing this for like years and you've been putting up with it to be like, I actually hate that word. You're gonna make them feel really embarrassed and ashamed versus like if you were to say, hey, I'm actually realizing lately like I think this word is a lot sexier.

Yeah. Yeah. So try that. Please try that. I mean, if that is not— if you're really trying to redirect and redirect and redirect, and it's not landing, eventually you might need to say, hey, this is actually like, this is a real serious thing. So at the end of the day, it's not worth having a one-sided dirty talk relationship. That's not fun for you. And I don't think it would be fun for him if he knew that you weren't actually enjoying Yeah. It's that we don't do dirty talk because it's just a, oh, it just turns me on. Like, I could go, I could just go say a bunch of dirty stuff like in the mirror, right? But it's like, that's not what we're doing here. It's like, I want to do it with somebody that is willing and open to it.

I have had to tell you to remove a few words from your vocabulary.

Yeah, you have.

How did that feel for you? Yeah, there were certain words that I, yeah, I had a reaction to that I don't really love. They don't, yeah, they don't turn me on.

Yeah, and that was totally fine. I was like, okay, it is a little— I mean, I think that there does have to be some leeway for you're going to mess that up, because in the moment things are heightened, you're not totally thinking straight all the time. So it can be hard to remember, oh wait, can I say this word or that word or whatever? But once you got into the pattern of it, and you could help, you could help your partner out by starting to say that word a lot yourself. That can be a great way to cue. 'Cause if there was, if you didn't want me to say pussy and you wanted me to say something else instead, if you said that, started saying that word a lot, oh, like touch my whatever, put it in my whatever.

Vagina. I just can't with vagina.

Put it in my little V.

Oh no. That was my AOL screen name.

You know, but yes, then I would be like, oh yeah, that's what I'm supposed to say.

Someone needs to come up with some like better, like hot words for vagina and vulva. Like sounds sexy, fun to say.

Yeah, let's hear what you want.

Should we start like a contest or something?

Yeah, what's your preferred pussy alternative?

But like, no, like come up with a new one.

Okay.

Like some, a brand new word.

Oh, okay.

Like a scooch or something, you know?

Scooch?

I don't know. I think that's not sexy to say at all, but just like a, like a made-up word.

Okay, I like it. I like it. Let's get creative.

You also, you threw in a new word last week that you never said before, and I was like, oh, we're going to have to have a little conversation about that one afterwards.

Yes. I'm not going to say what it was. It was one of those ones where I was like, immediately afterwards, I was like, I shouldn't have said that.

But again, not thinking Real straight.

Real focused on the mission.

You were in the moment, you were thinking about something, and you just kind of, you stumbled across the wrong word.

I did.

But I think neither one of us liked that word, so it was a pretty easy one to laugh about afterwards. Like, yeah, we're not going to repeat that one. Yeah.

He who shall be not— oh my God. He who—

What are you talking about? He who shall not be named.

Yes, there we go.

There we go.

Who shall not be named?

The dirty talk who shall not be named.

Yes.

Okay, I think we have time for one more.

If my partner is having trouble getting to sleep, is it okay to wake me up? She will sometimes have a hard time decompressing and falling asleep after a long day. Occasionally she will wake me up and ask to talk for a while. I keep her company, but I also need to be able to sleep. I feel like you would have some strong Thoughts on this?

I think it's— I think you, the person writing the question, I think you get to decide whether this is reasonable or ridiculous.

Yeah.

Personally— okay, personally—

If I were like waking you up constantly.

If you were— if this was— yeah, for me, this is a matter of frequency. If this is like once a month, you know, and if it's because you're feeling like anxiety or something, or maybe you're or like having some pain and you're just struggling to sleep, I don't mind every once in a while you waking me up and saying like, hey, I'm so sorry to wake you up, but I'm just like, I'm feeling really anxious, or like I can't stop thinking about this thing, or I'm in pain and I can't get comfortable. Like, I'd be okay with that. But if it's just like randomly you're having a hard time sleeping, I'd be like, sorry, bud, like that sucks, but I don't wanna be woken up in the middle of the night.

Yeah.

And I wouldn't wanna wake you up in the middle of the night either. Like, I would wanna, Yeah, it's just something that we— it sucks, but unfortunately that we have to get through alone. But I think lots of people have different feelings about this, and that's totally fine. Like, I could see a lot of people saying, oh, I don't mind. I'd rather, you know, I want to keep you company. I know it sucks to sleep, or I'm usually struggling to sleep myself, so I don't mind. Like, go ahead and wake me up. And I can see other people being like, do not wake me up unless the house is on fire.

Yeah.

I will be so mad at you if you wake me up. So I think it's ultimately, it's the person who's sending this in, it's your call to decide, are you open to this or not?

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think the other thing that is coming up for me as I'm thinking through this is, if this is happening consistently, and it's always the same thing, hey, there's something I need to talk to you about or talk through or get off of my chest because I've had a stressful day and I'm ruminating about it. What that tells me is that you guys might need a better check-in process before bed. Some— like, you need a better container to be able to, to be there for each other before you go to bed.

Mhm.

If consistently there are things that your partner is trying to decompress, and it sounds like to me this is, like you said, a decompression issue. Like, that sounds Like this, the person, not the person writing in, but their partner, she might have some work to do when it comes to, hey, I get home from work at this time. There's typically this amount of time before bed. This is my window to get my needs for connection and decompression met. Rather than it, because it is kind of unreasonable to be like, oh yeah, no, like I'm all good. And And then 4 hours later, once your partner's fallen asleep, you're consistently like, ah, no, I'm not good. I got a lot of shit on my mind. And it's like, yeah, no, it's not like, no, you can never talk to your partner, but this is a consistent thing. This sounds like something that you should take some responsibility for earlier on in the night when your partner can truly be there for you.

Yeah. No, I think that's a really good point. All right. Well, that wraps up our latest round of Reasonable or Ridiculous. God, we had like 4 There were other questions that we didn't get to. I like doing the deep dives, though, on some of these. They're just like, they're really fun to pick apart and get into all the little layers and nuance and details.

Well, it's pretty boring if we're just like, that's reasonable. That's ridiculous.

Move on. Next one.

Next!

Yeah. So let us know if you like this series. We love it. So we would love to continue doing it, but you can drop us a comment in Spotify or wherever.

Wait, is it reasonable for us to keep doing Reasonable? Was it reasonable or ridiculous for us to continue this series.

Let us know. You can also come on over to Instagram. We're @VanessaAndZander. All right, that is all for today's episode of Pillow Talks. Thank you so much for listening. Join us again next week. We release new episodes every Thursday.