ElevatePolk Podcast S3 E6 #72 | Pay to Play

Welcome back to another episode of Elevate Polk. Hey everybody, you guys know who this is, you know who I am, but for anybody who doesn't, I'm Dan Thunberg and I am Chrisanne Long. All right, and we'll start. I gotta read my little thing here. Make sure you like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Follow us on Facebook at Elevate Polk. And we are available on just two streaming services. Actually, no, my wife uses Undercast. Oh, I have no idea what that is, but apparently we're showing up on there as well now.

The newest episodes too. Fantastic.

So, but Apple Podcasts and Spotify is what we pay for.

Yes. So we're going to have a really fun talk today. I've got a hat on. Can I talk about my hat first?

Please. Actually, let's go ahead and let's Let's get into that first.

Yes. So today is semifinals day in the softball world, and I will be watching some softball later. So I'm wearing this hat because, and my niece is a pitcher for USF, and I am cheering them on to make, continue to make a great season even greater by winning out. They have a game today at 1 and then a game on Saturday and then selection Sunday. So have you ever paid attention to college softball?

I never paid attention in college.

To college softball?

To college, period.

Oh, to college.

Yeah. Go Bulls!

I lost you at college.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I spent 3 semesters at USF. That's actually where I got started. You know, I graduated from UF, but when I was at USF, I thought— That's fine. I thought I was going to be the world's greatest mechanical engineer until I got into Calc 4 and the professor had a little bit of an accent and he kept calling something squiggy. And I never could understand what squiggy was. And so it was the first time in my math career that I had actually ever not gotten an A or a B in a math class. Because you didn't know what squiggy was? I'm not bragging. I didn't know what squiggy was.

And do you know what it is?

Still to this day, I have no clue what squiggy is.

So if you know what squiggy is, we need to know.

Yeah, it was something with differential equations. And I basically just kind of checked out.

Well, That has nothing to do with why I'm wearing the hat. So squiggy yourself over there. I'm just excited that Anne is gonna be pitching, and I'm just praying that everything goes well for her tonight.

Oh, it's gonna be fantastic. What did you call her earlier? She's a batter?

She's a baddie.

A baddie.

Baddie. B-A-D-D-I-E. Baddie.

Well, that means a couple of different things depending on which world you live in.

Oh, wow.

So why don't you explain what a baddie is?

Like she's a badass.

Oh, oh, okay. All right. I just— I just didn't want to say badass because it was like, we'll bleep it because we're trying to be, you know, yeah, whatever. Uh, I just live, you know, I have, um, a tween now, and when I see the YouTube Shorts pop up, the word baddie, is that means something completely different?

Something that I should not say?

I have no idea. Maybe I'm too old to care.

All right, I made a promise. What? No, I, I asked one of my other nieces to make me a promise that she would not let me seem old. So in words and things that I'm doing, I was like, all right, are we allowed to still take selfies? Is that still relevant? Like, when we old people continue to do things, young people need to let us know, not just laugh at us over on the side and go, "Hahaha." But what do we do?

We used to laugh at the older folks.

But I don't want to be that. I want my nieces at least to have my back.

Okay.

So I pinky promised with Anne and with Mary, and she said she would take care of it. So we'll see. But I guess it's cool that we have a podcast. I think that makes me maybe not—

Does it?

I don't know.

It's like we got like 15 listeners. It's not even true. But I do want to start just real quick before we get into this episode, which is— I mean, look, we get into a lot of heavy stuff.

We're trying to be very direct and very honest, and we're realizing how hard it is to do that in a recorded studio. Scenario. That's how I feel about it.

Well, I think not just that, but the environment in which we live, you know, overt outspoken honesty has never been kind of one of those things that happens, right?

Well, it— you're right. I don't think it does happen. It happens in private.

Sure.

We have had many conversations of being very honest with each other. But we also are committed to kind of shedding some light on some things that we are maybe feeling frustration about and hope, hoping that sharing them in a productive way will help lead us to change.

Before you try to call me out on it, because I know this is your plan, are you saying we are collegial?

We are being collegial. But there's also another side to collegiality, right? I think in my mind, I think what we have done is we've worked ourselves into this space where we should be polite and avoid conflict to the point where we're not calling things out and therefore nothing is changing. And I think this episode is going to be our attempt to talk through some things that have been going— that we've been going through in different scenarios, and maybe we can just give them some actual verbiage, some vocabulary to call out, and then we can see if there's a way to solve the problems that we're experiencing. And I don't like that word problems, but now they're not problems, just the conflict challenge, things we have to overcome, things we have to get through in order to continuously improve. Yeah.

And, you know, I've gone through a couple of interviews in my life. And, you know, one of the questions you always get in an interview is, you know, what is your— one of your biggest weaknesses? Mm-hmm. You know, and of course, everybody's like, I don't know that I— maybe I care too much.

My weakness is not— yeah, my weakness is that I am very passionate.

Right. Yeah. Mine is that I get fixated and that—

You were fixated before this episode.

I know, right? And it's like, it's not ADD or anything like that. It's just there are certain things that kind of just make me snap, and I can't let it go, and I will fixate on it. There was an issue we had with one of the things at the brewery. I fixated on it for 5 years. I would not let it go, and I just kept just pushing and pushing and pushing, pushing, because I knew that I was right.

Hmm.

And I was trying to prove myself wrong. I wanted to be wrong about it so I could just stop being fixated on it, right? But everything that I was doing was pointing towards, no, this is right. And so this is another one of those things that it just snapped, and now I am completely fixated on it and I cannot let it go. And, um, I— it's all right, let's just get into it.

Yeah, stop beating around the bush.

We're not going to beat around the bush on this one. All right, so we all belong, or we have belonged at some point, to some organization whether it's in town, online, professional, civic, you name it, right? We've been asked to come and share our knowledge or our resources or whatever the case may be, whether that be through volunteering or being on a board or what have you.

Right. Civic engagement.

Sure.

I'm on an advisory board with the city of Lakeland through the CRA. I'm on a board, you know, as a volunteer board. There's also advisory boards, there's working boards. There's a lot of different variations of of our volunteerism. And that usage of our time for us as bootstrapped or, you know, maybe undercapitalized entrepreneurs is not— we don't make those decisions lightly.

No, because time is money, one. Not only that, but we don't have giant budgets or giant teams that we can afford to remove ourselves from the equation for extended periods of time. You know, we are down in the weeds making things happen on a daily basis, not sitting behind a desk, you know, waiting for the phone to ring. So you, you brought up this term and I don't know that I had ever thought of it before because one, is it a real word? Extractive? I guess it is.

There's no squiggly line when I type it.

There's no squiggly line when you type it?

All right.

I guess it is a real word. So extractive relationships.

Yeah.

And so I got to thinking, okay, what is, what exactly is an extractive relationship? And I looked it up, you know, an extractive relationship is basically where more and more is demanded of you and not a whole lot returned.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it is, it is a one-way relationship.

Yeah.

You know, whether it be your knowledge or your money or whatever the case may be, is just kind of just expected from you.

Right.

With nothing kind of given back.

Yes. And so, or maybe things that are given back are not of equal value, right? Or the perceived value is inflated.

Yeah.

It's not as valuable as it may have been presented. And therefore, and I think we fall into traps, business owners can fall into traps where we're making decisions that we don't especially generous entrepreneurs. We don't want to get into a transactional relationship where it's all about what I get from you and what I give to you, right? Because that just, that just feels transactional. We want to continue to maintain our ability to be in a relationship and bring value and then also receive value. I think what has happened to me over the years is I don't go into those, those conversations or those relationships with that strategically in my head. And so I will pour my effort, my energy, my time, my resources, my ideas, my thoughts generously without any thought. And then I'm completely de— like I'm sapped of energy and I look at it and I go, well, why am I feeling this way? And I'm looking around and no one else is feeling this way. And I'm also realizing that no one else is maybe as passionate or pouring in or people are just kind of handling their roles differently than I'm handling my role. Right. And so then I'm like, well, maybe I should just be like everybody else and just, you know, show up, rubber stamp and leave.

Yeah. But is that what we're supposed to do?

I feel like that's not what we're supposed to do.

No.

But I feel like that's what the environment around me has generally been.

Because that's what we've always done.

Right. Well, it's the culture. It's the environment. Environment. We're products of the environment, right? We see— so you were saying something a few minutes ago, and I was like, we, we don't know anything else. So as entrepreneurs, I was just thinking about like Silicon Valley, right? If I'm in an environment where all of the entrepreneurs are in this, in this innovative mindset space, creative thinking, oh man, I just figured this out. And then you walk in and you're saying, man, I'm trying to figure this out. And you're like, oh, look, I can— I'm going to show you that. I'm going to— I'm going to— give back value because the culture around me is so beneficial. Like, it's, it's, it's healthy. I'm getting, I'm getting things from just being in this space. And so it's awesome. And I want to continue.

I'm glad you bring this up because I wanted to understand the culture of innovation because I 100% agree with you. As small business owners, we are almost required to be innovative on a daily basis. And it's not that we don't have the money because we're bad at business. It's that we're watching every single penny because we're good at business. You know?

Yeah.

We force ourselves to be innovative.

Right.

We force ourselves to do more with less every single day. It's, let me talk to Tom. Tom is a prime example of that.

Right.

He does so much with so little. That is the innovation that you wanna have, right? So I wanted to look up and just what the numbers were. You know, big business versus big corporate. I love my numbers. Okay. So, and of course, I want to weave this into our conversation here. Small businesses employ nearly half of the American workforce. We know that, right?

Yes.

And represent—

But say that again and let it, let it sit for a second.

Small businesses employ nearly half of the American workforce.

Okay.

And represent 43.5% of the United States GDP. Okay. These are small businesses, the ones on Main Street, the mom and pops, the people who took a chance.

Now, to be devil's advocate, to not to— because I've done some extensive research into this conversation and I think that I want— this is why this is important to me, because I think we have varying understandings of what that actually means in reality. Not you and I, but I think the general world, right?

Let's explain it.

So when the government defines small business, a small business according to the SBA, where you can get an SBA loan, is any employee, any business with 1 to 499 employees.

Fair enough.

Okay. So that changes things a lot. And I, but we don't necessarily have a solid understanding of the Polk County GDP according to these particular numbers because we don't know back to episode too, right? About how— what the actual makeup is of— because we don't have— I think Tom— Tom, was it Tom saying? I can't remember. There are 2 or 3 companies that represent this next level of business size, right? There's only 2: Publix and one other. And then the rest are like in this gray area. And I think going back, getting back on track, I think we just need to better understand and define the makeup of Polk County. Right. That's my goal. I would love to be able to speak to it because when you said that it lands, it means something, it's significant. And then there's the critic who's going to pick that apart because there's more to it than just 49. What was the number? 49%, 51% of businesses are small.

Nearly half of the American workforce is employed by small business. Correct.

Yes. So back to that. So just to understand that there's some, there's some cracks in the data.

Here's another one. We'll get down a little bit more granular then.

Okay.

Businesses with 5 to 9 employees. There we go.

That's our space.

Received more patents per employee than any other business size. Nearly double the rate of large businesses.

There we go. That's where we were going with this innovation conversation. Is that better?

Uh-huh. Yes. Small businesses as, as a whole produce 16 times more patents per employee than large businesses and universities and employ nearly 40% of America's scientists and engineers.

Hmm.

So the argument is that small businesses are innovative One, because they're good at business. Two, they don't have the money to be able to go out and spend huge swaths in R&D.

They're problem solvers.

They're problem solvers, right? We use shoestrings and duct tape on everything and we make it work and we make money doing it, right? When you have organizations that are trying to change or to do things for the business bigger— business culture or for our local governments, or for whatever the case may be, you should be focusing on innovation. You should be focusing on how to do more with less, to be efficient with resources, whether that's cash, whether that's natural resources, whether that's human resources, you name it, right? That is kind of the idea, is to be able to make the most of what we've got. But what happens when you show up for these different groups, and then the next day you get an invoice in your email.

So let me, let me explain that from what I'm hearing you say based on this conversation. You have been invited to participate, to contribute your knowledge, your experience, your wisdom, your thoughts to the mission of the organization because it is believed that you have something of value to contribute, therefore you've been invited to this place. And as a result of that time that you've spent not only away from your business between, you know, not only just the time in the business but reading the emails and answering, responding to things and studying and preparing and thinking through all the things you need to to think through. Now you've spent the time and you're getting an invoice to pay for the privilege of being in that conversation. Is that fair?

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

And that hurts. I mean, that, that, I don't want to hurt, it's not the right word. That smarts.

Let's go back. So let's pull baseball into this. I know you're talking softball. You know, I was a, I was a baseball coach.

Same concept.

I was a baseball coach. So I was a baseball coach for my little brother many, many years ago, and I was a baseball coach for my son not that many years ago. And so when you have Little League or when you play Little League baseball over here, we're at LCB, and you go and you pay your money for your child to play for the season, right? And then you get asked, hey, we need some coaches, you know, especially for, you know, once you start getting into certain leagues, you know, the dads are lining up to be coaches, right? You know, the daddy ball leagues. Yeah. Now we're talking about the not so fun times where, you know, the kids are still running around and the outfield—

Kids would rather pick up the grass and throw it in the air and see where it flies.

Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's, that's what I'm talking about. So what if you go ahead and, and not only are you paying for your child to play ball, but then you agree to go ahead and be a volunteer on top of that to coach the team. Now you're bringing in, you know, your bag full of bats and that, you know, beat up baseball tee that's been sitting in the garage for years. Mm-hmm. And you're going and you're spending all of your time in the batting cage and out on the field, you know, just trying to hype the kids up to have a good game. And you get to that first game and the league president comes over to you and says, "Hey, gonna need you to pay for the umpire too." No.

We laugh.

But it's very similar, right? I think the expectation is that if you were going to go at least from a small business owner's perspective, if you're asking for my input, if you're asking for my guidance, if you're asking for me to be consultative on whatever direction the organization is trying to go, that my time is the money that I pay to be a part of the conversation.

And I would also add to, if you're asking me to do the things, you're also able to check off a box because you fill a demographic. As a small business owner, you are on the profile of people that they need to have a balance of.

Yes.

So by you participating and saying yes and making the commitment and doing the things that you've agreed to do, you're also contributing to the fact that the profile matches what it should from their stakeholders' perspective.

Yes.

Right? Right.

Correct. And here's one of the problems with having that extractive relationship, when you're expecting, you know, not just someone's time to be invested, you know, and their knowledge to be invested, when you want them to open up their pocketbook, then it becomes that extractive relationship.

Yeah.

Right? That is what we're talking about. When you have folks that you're asking to join that are from the corporate world, they have a corporate expense account, right? And that money that is being asked of them is not their own money.

Mm-hmm.

That is not money coming from their own business. That is a credit card they're throwing down and somebody else is paying the bill.

Correct.

I came from the corporate world. I was in the corporate world for a very, very long time. If I needed to fly out to California to go to a business meeting, I didn't have to go into my own personal credit card. I pulled out my company Amex. I bought my business class ticket, right? I paid for my room.

The company paid for it.

The company paid for it. And they picked up that pretty little red convertible Mustang that I was going to grab at the airport. And I didn't think twice about it.

Right.

As a small business owner, you're thinking twice about everything.

Exactly.

Everything.

So where did this term come into my view for the first time? Like, because this, this—

Well, let's, well, let's touch on it. We're going to take a little bit of a break, but then I want you to get into the meat and potatoes of it. So let's set everybody up. Before we get into the fancy commercials?

Well, I'm a part of a lot of different organizations and communities that I use so that I can be a source, a resource to, but also to gain knowledge and experience from, right? Like, I don't join communities unless I feel like there's something that I can bring that's valuable, with the exception of organizations that I don't know that I have anything to contribute to. And this would be one of those where I'm just like, I want to be in the room. I want to listen. I feel like I'm, I'm extracting as much value as I possibly can just so that I can become more valuable. And then at some point in time, maybe I will be able to give more back. Right. So right now I'm just kind of a fly on the wall in this organization called eShipbuilders. It's an entrepreneurship ecosystem builder community that has been created and curated. And it's just, it's rich with all of the things that just get me excited every day, right? So I get notifications in my email, and there's this post that's been shared, and I go and I read it. And I'm reading, and the post was not at all about this. There was a description of an invitation for people who might want to contribute back to the community, and I'm looking for ways that I can give back. So I'm reading this, I'm like, is this a good fit for me? Am I qualified? And the description of this is specifically says this is designed to be mutually beneficial, not extractive. That's how it was described. And I literally stopped, paused, and looked at that word. And I said, wow, I've never seen that before. And I got into this conversation with Google and AI and everything to just— is that a thing? Like, I was like you. I was like, is that a word?

I've never seen that before. Never used that in my— anything that I've ever written.

Right. Right. So my go-to— I've got a lot of people that I follow. Adam Grant, you should follow him if you haven't started.

You know, I'm illiterate.

Reading any of his stuff, you should definitely read. But this was one of his first books, Give and Take. And in Give and Take, he talks about 3 people. He talks about takers, matchers, and givers. And he doesn't say anything bad about takers, but he basically says that when you're a giver and you're not in the mindset, kind of what I was saying earlier, like strategically, I'm just there to, to, to provide value. I walk into a room and I'm like, how can I contribute? I'm not at my best when I feel like I'm just there to take things from the room or from the experience. Right? I just don't feel like that's my— like, I don't have as much fun. I'm not like— I'm not engaged. I'm not as engaged. So givers, takers, and matchers. He says, takers strive to get as much as possible from others.

Yeah.

Matchers aim to trade evenly. And then the givers— and I don't have that quote here, but you can obviously fill in— the givers are just there to give. And there's a desire sometimes for that to be the case. There's nothing wrong with giving. It's not exploitive to be a giver.

It's the philanthropic mindset, right? There's no expectation. It's just, I want to make society a little better place, right? Yeah.

The subtitle of this book, Give and Take, is Why Helping Others Drives Our Success. So give— giving that model of matching, like I'm giving something here because it inherently is designed. I hope it's designed to also help me succeed, to get me somewhere too. But to enter into this room to believe that all I am there to do is to give without there being any reciprocity is fallacy, I think, because what happens is people will come for a period of time and give and give and give and give and give and give. And I think this is my interpretation, so I may be completely off, but I think in an extractive culture that wears on them and then they leave and they never come back.

Let's, let's set it up to take a little bit of a break. When we come back, I want to talk about this exact thing. What happens when the innovators are no longer in the room, when the extractive relationship has taken a toll on them and all you're left with is the corporate pocketbook?

Yep. That's what we're going to do.

Be back in a minute.

Okay.

In 2025, you leveled up. Now it's time to break through. The 2026 Central Florida Business Expo, September 29th and 30th at the RP Funding Center in Lakeland, Florida, right in the heart of the I-4 corridor. Connect with hundreds of business owners in a massive exhibit hall. Learn from purpose experts, bestselling authors, TEDx speakers, and Inc. 5000 CEOs delivering keynotes you will not want to miss. Unlock the strategies, the connections, and the confidence to lead real transformational growth. This is your moment. Breakthrough, September 29th and 30th, 2026, at the RP Funding Center in Lakeland. Sponsor and exhibitor registration is open now at cflbe.com.

If you're running a small business, you already know there's never enough time in your day. Its3pm.io builds custom automations and workflows that save you time and money. Stop working in your business and start working on your business. Go to its3pm.io to schedule a call today.

All right, we're back. I hope you enjoyed those fun commercials.

I spent so much time making.

They are so great. I love them.

Did you see the TikTok, anti-TikTok one I did?

I didn't.

No, I led into, uh, last week's with, I don't know, I'll show you a funny TikTok video or something, and it's just, go watch it. Anyways, um, when we left off, we were talking a little bit about what happens when the small business owners check out, when the extractive relationship just becomes a little bit too much and they're just done. You know, they'd rather spend more time focusing on their business than being able to spread their knowledge around and being able to help out other organizations?

Well, what happens is more people come along. And I think that's what we've been relying on is that, okay, we're going to get what we can. This person is probably going to be here for a couple of years, maybe 5, a board member, maybe moves all the way up to president, chair of the chairman of the board. Then they're exhausted, right? Then they need a break. They're checking out. They're done. All of that work, all those years, all that time contributed is now off into Never Neverland, and they don't necessarily ever get to a point where they come back because they remember how exhausted they felt at the end of all of that experience. And I'm not saying that the model is wrong, but I am saying that I feel like the nuances is interesting when it comes to this innovation conversation, this entrepreneurship conversation. You know, I've always wondered, I mean, I'm a marketing, I'm a digital marketing agency, and I've always wondered why there aren't more digital marketing people on boards and contributing. And I feel like because it's of that extractive nature of things, like you, you are more needed as a person who has a service to provide. And because you're on the board, it's awkward to say, hey, I can provide that. But that's a service you have to pay because now we're talking about some, you know, some slippery slopes.

I was, I was talking more for, for the person who does get burned out. What is the greatest way to get someone on board with your product these days? Is it the personal review? Is it the, I'm going to go and read the Google reviews, the Yelp reviews? Hey, my buddy told me about this. You know, the personal—

personal recommendations.

The personal recommendations. What happens when that person is deep inside of that organization and that organization is looking to grow, expand, to continue to do whatever they're wanting? But the ones who should be the greatest cheerleaders are the ones who get burnt out.

Mm-hmm.

Personal recommendation kind of goes away, doesn't it?

It does.

And not necessarily that it's going to be, you know, a detractor situation where you're going to have to worry about your 1-star review. It's just that there's just no review.

It's just indifference at this point.

It is quiet indifference is exactly what it is.

I've said for years in conversations about the work that I do and the work that I want to do, because I feel like I'm still building to a point where I get to do the work that I really want to do, which is build up the ecosystem in Polk County for entrepreneurs. Right. But I've said for years, the word collaboration, we all love it. We throw it around like it's, you know, confetti because everybody wants to feel like they're collaborating. But when you get into a collaborative Project. I will use our podcast as an example. This is perfect collaboration at its finest, right? You're using your skill set to the best of its ability. I'm using my skill sets to the best of our ability. I do not feel weighted down by being in partnership with you, and I hope that you don't feel weighted down by being in partnership with me. But I'm doing my share of the work. You're doing your share of the work. You're, you're fixated on perfection, which, you know, hey, that's your problem.

That's me. That's me. That just is what it is.

But because of it, we can we can turn these, we can turn these podcasts into meaningful conversations. And I don't feel stressed out. So that's collaboration. But at the root, like, I love words. And so at the root of collaboration is the word co- and then that's the prefix and labor. There's two parts to this. Co-labor means both parties are working, both parties are participating in the work together. And I've said that for years.

Are you one of those people? What do they call that? Numismatist? No, those are the people that study money.

I love etymology.

Etymology.

I love etymology. Yes.

It's a Jeopardy question.

One of my favorite classes in college was Greek and Latin.

I mean, I understand prefixes and all of that, but I never— I don't know that I understand. Co means together. I never put the labor part to it.

Well, so I've been saying that for years. The other thing that I've been saying for years, and this goes back to the Lakeland Business Leaders and BridgeLocal and the work that that I've always wanted to be able to do in that space is everything should be looked through a lens of win-win-win. You should win, I should win, and so should the community win. If all of us are winning, then that is mutually beneficial, not just mutually beneficial between us, which would be great. But if that added bonus of us looking out and that's prescriptive, we can't just do that on accident. We have to decide this is the mission. This is what we are focused on. This matters enough that we're going to build our model around how we can provide value to ourselves, because we do matter. We're important too. We don't just need to be, you know, um, what is it, fading flowers or whatever that— there's a fading flowers, disintegrating flowers, I don't know, wallflowers. I don't know what I was trying—

wallflowers. I mean, sure, I never used that term.

Wilting, wilting flowers. Okay, but we don't need to be We don't need to remove ourselves from the equation. This isn't— this shouldn't be martyrdom. Like, oh, look at all that I've done and everything that I have contributed. No, like, we're all in this together in the sandbox, building the sandcastle together. Oh, can you get me your shovel? Oh, we need some water. Everybody's working to create the beauty that we can together.

Sure. There's a place for everybody in the ecosystem. And I'm not saying that these boards should be filled with just small business owners. I mean, that doesn't make any— that makes no sense whatsoever. Again, Half of the jobs are created by big business, right? You know, they also need to have a say in the equation. But I think what gets— but, but I think where the disconnect is, is that the small business owners are going to be a lot more financially conscious of the decisions that they make. They are going to have that spirit of innovation that comes with the conversations that they have. Big business is coming with the pocketbooks. Those are the ones that are going to be your banner sponsors at your big events. and that's the reason that you have them on board. It's not necessarily because the innovation is going to be there. It's because you need them to drive the part of the revenue model. The innovation is going to come from the people who have to innovate on a daily basis. So if you are disengaging them and pushing them off to the side through the extractive relationship, then now what do you become? You no longer become an innovative organization. You become an organization that is stuck in the way that it is, being funded by a corporate checkbook. And if that's what you want to be, that's perfectly fine. But I think at least be open and honest about it.

Right. I think you're right. I think it also goes beyond just the scope of organizations that we're referring to. I think it's also recognizing that I've always said in the business community world, like we also— what we want, how we want people to treat us, we also need to build into our model to treat them, right? So if I'm a small business and I can get cheaper solutions through— and I'll just use— when I started our business, we— I'm not going to lie. I'm going to tell you guys, I'm having confession. I'm sharing my sins, right? We ordered our first, like, business cards from Vistaprint. We didn't have a relationship locally with a printer, right? And we were just like, it's faster, it's cheaper, it's easier. That was our mindset. That was our model, right? Like, we were just Of course, it makes sense, and most people do, and there's no—

Do you think somebody's gonna shame you for ordering your first set of business cards from Vistaprint?

No, I don't, but at the same time, now that I know better, I know the value of having a local printer.

Sure.

I know the value of the relationship. I know that they refer me business. I know that they are partners in other things that I have the opportunity to do that Vistaprint will never be able to provide. And so when I look at it from that perspective, we as business owners, to level ourselves up, also have to mature ourselves in recognizing that sometimes cost is not the only consideration.

Yes.

It's also the opportunity cost of what— or the opportunity, opportunity that is available to us if we choose to spend a little bit more money and build that relationship with somebody who is a local provider of a service that we could get for cheaper.

100%.

All day long. That lifts the tide, right? We're talking about the rising tide lifts all ships, but we cannot and I had a really great conversation. So I'm going to shoot out— I'm going to shout out to Marcos because I remember Marcos coming when he was still at the early 1961 location and we had a breakfast and he shared some thoughts about this particular thing I'm about to say. And it is that we cannot be asking of others something that we are not willing to do ourselves. And I think there's a lot of that. And that's where we are like, all right, if it's extractive, I'm going to come to you and get everything I can, but then I have nothing back to give. So what ultimately could happen is it's like horse trading, right? You have a horse. I have a horse. Your horse— you need a horse that does something my horse does, and I need a horse that does something your horse does. Let's just switch horses for a while. You know, we don't lose anything and we're all here to gain. So if I can provide a website or graphic design or something and you need something that I have and I need something that you have, Let's hire each other to do that stuff. That's, that's the other level of extraction that I think that we are— I wanted to make sure we got into because it's not just the big, big companies and organizations kind of exploiting the smaller businesses. That's not really just that. It's just a culture of creating mutual benefit that it is. I want to continue to be in a relationship with you because it benefits me too. And you seem happy to be in a relationship with me. So let's keep going down the road together.

And back in the day, um, we called it the liar's table.

The liar's table?

Yeah. So we've already gone into—

in what day?

Well, I mean, we've already gone into— I grew up in, in Gibsonton, and there is a very famous bar and restaurant in town called Showtown. Okay, it's right there on Highway 41.

Next to Shogun?

There's no Shogun. Showtown, because land of the carnies, right? Showtown, very famous. If you've ever driven down Highway 41 in Gibsonton, you've seen right there on the east side of the road. My grandfather used to love going in there in the morning and meeting up with his buddy, his buddies at what's called the liar's table. Liar's table is this big round table, seats maybe 8 to 10 different people. Now this table was built to do several different things. In the morning when you're sitting there having your biscuits and gravy and your corned beef hash and your toast and your eggs and all of that good stuff, that was where the business deals were made. But it wasn't, hey, if you give me this, I'll give you that, or hey, I'm trying to sell this to you. Don't you want to buy this? It was more, I have this fair that is happening over here. I promised them that I would bring 50 pieces of equipment, but I only have 25. Now I want to make sure that I do well on my contract. So do you want to bring in your other 25 over here? Just keep what you win, you know, or whatever. Pay me a little bit for the power. You know, it is what it is. But that way we can keep the contract going and we can both make a little bit of money. It was a very mutually beneficial relationship. The other part of the liar's table is where you met up after golf and I was going to say, where's the liar? You chopped up the jackpots and there's all kinds of other stuff that happened. And then of course, late at night is where the liar's table got really, really interesting and probably one of the reasons it's called the liar's table. Here, let me tell you how much money I made this season.

How big my fish was.

Right, exactly. But that's the kind of relationships that we should be having. It is the win-win for everyone. It is not, what can you do for me? And here's this, what I believe is a beneficial situation for you. Come pay, come pay your money for this and I'm going to extract from you. It's how can we be a win-win to make sure that whatever we're providing down both sides of the street, is equal.

You know? Yeah. And it also is to me, the conversations that we've had about the pathway for success in Polk County. How do we become successful? Well, the perception is, if you get into the in-crowd, the in-crowd will lead you down the path of prosperity and success. Like, that's the perception. And so we look at this with, oh, it's an honor. Oh, they tapped me on the shoulder. I, they notice me, they see me, they think I'm important. And so I feel like that's going to lead me to better opportunities. And it very well may. Not saying that it may. It's not an absolute, but the fact that the pathway isn't clear and that when you're in a room full of people that are also not aware of the realities for entrepreneurship, that it's— I've seen myself like shut down. Because nobody really wants to know what I do. Yeah. Nobody really cares in this, in situations. And it's sad because I believe that most small businesses have something very valuable to contribute. But if we don't have a pathway to how we're going to get somewhere, then like you said earlier, I mean, it's the, it's, we're opting out and I'm seeing it. And I've had conversations over, over years of, Why are you not more engaged? Why are you not more engaged politically? Why are you not more engaged? You know, from a business community perspective? Why, why, why, why, why? And the answer is nobody cares about me.

Yeah. Well, it's the small town. You know, we want to have the small town feel. We want to be able to have Main Street. We want mom and pops to be able to continue to set up shops. The only way for that to— for the mom and pops to not turn into giant warehouses on I-4. Is for them to be engaged. But when you push them out and you no longer want them engaged, then you're fighting against what people want.

It's not as nefarious as you're making it sound. We're not pushing anybody out. We're extracting the value to the point where they have nothing left and they feel like that. They feel that way.

They're checking out themselves.

Yes.

They're not being pushed out.

Right.

They're just quietly walking away.

I'm done.

Or they'll put in the minimum amount required, what they agreed to, the minimum amount that they agreed to for the time that they agreed to do it. And then you have a neutral on your hands, right? You don't have a detractor. No, you don't have a promoter, right? You just have a neutral. Yeah, they're, they're ambivalent.

Yeah. And it continues year over year over year. But the reason it continues, I referenced before, is that there's always going to be somebody new. And this isn't public knowledge, you've got to go through the process. You've got to— this is going to sound bad and I'm going to say it and maybe regret it, I don't know. But it kind of feels like you've been chewed up and spit out. And then once that's happened, you've gone through that maybe a few times. You're like, this isn't— this isn't cool.

Yeah.

And if you decide to tap out, you know, where do you go? Well, maybe what happens is you go to a larger community where it doesn't feel so big. Maybe the system is just the system, and maybe we're just raging against the machine in this conversation. I don't know. I just feel like if we're not aware of another opportunity— if I had not read This Is Designed to Be Mutually Beneficial, Not Extractive, I wouldn't know that there were people out there wanting to create a different culture.

But there are, and they're not— they don't have to be in your town. There are so many, you know, there's this thing called the internet. If you're watching us, then you you know, are listening to us, you know what the internet is. There are, there are places that you can go where you can have mutually beneficial relationships that are non-extractive. And when that is your competition, that's where your small business owners are going.

Right.

You know, and it might not be on the internet, but it could be in other communities. You know, it could be in physical communities as well. But the reality is that it's still lost.

Right.

And I guess we need to be able to make a decision in our own communities. Is that what we want? Do we want to be able to just let them go somewhere else and lose that innovation? You know, we go back to episode 2, the Innovation Index.

Exactly. But what you have said to me over and over and over again is I want to make a difference.

I do.

And I don't want to feel like that energy is wasted in a place that I cannot make a difference. And so we're all, I think, saying similar things and feeling similar things. You and I are just now on the show having this conversation and saying it out loud.

And that's why I self-flagellate every single day going, go ahead, Dan, take some more.

Take some more. But the, the other person. So when, when I said this is a thing, right? It doesn't have to be this way is how I felt in that moment. When I read those words, I felt, okay, it can be different.

Then let's talk about how different it can be. Let's, let's provide a solution. Instead of just me and you being up here bitching in a couple of microphones.

Right.

Let's talk about—

So my other favorite person that I love is Seth Godin. Lots of books by his— hit by him. This is one of my favorites because it's, it's actually a picture book. You could actually read this. Oh, yay! See, it has beautiful pictures and not a lot of words. It's fantastic. It's right up your alley. But the title is What to Do When It's Your Turn. And we'll put a link to the book in the show notes. And then it says in parentheses, "And it's always your turn." So this pulled me in. It was like dripping with croissant, right? And I'm reading this feeling like someone understands me, but that's Seth Godin. Like, he's not in my world, right? So how do you bring the concepts of a brilliant writer and a person who's very well respected in the global world, right? He's very well respected. Him, Simon Sinek, Adam Grant, all these guys. And from Seth's work, the statement that the solutions-based statement is feed the network first. So if the network is healthier after we show up, the work is collaborative. If the network is drained, then it was extractive.

What does it mean, feed the network? What does that mean?

Feed the network in the sense that give the value to the network, not to the individual organization that's part of the network, but not the network. Like it's the silo conversation. So if we're looking at it again, back to the win-win-win, if it's a good win for you and it's a good win for me, but it also has to be a win for the community. If we're looking out for the community and the greater good, it goes back to when we were preparing for Tom's episode. And I said, whatsoever you do for the least of these, that has to be a pivotal part because they are in our network. And everyone that is in our government or paying taxes or our taxes are supporting in some way, shape, or form, they are a part of our network. So if we build, if we feed the network first, then the benefits will benefit the organizations in all of our different silos and, and corners of the universe.

But how do we do that? How do we feed the entire network? Because all of the different groups and different organizations all have different things that they're trying to do or focus on different directions that they're going. How do you make those different visions benefit everyone as a whole? Is it just going to be those that are invested in the vision of that organization? Or are we looking at the community as a whole, even though they might not be invested in that same vision?

I think we're looking at it as a community as a whole. What's not happening that I have seen in any meaningful way is collaborative conversations where there's a roundtable with the leaders of the organizations coming together and saying, hey, we're having this problem. Oh, you're having that problem? This is how we solved it. But if we take the idea of the network feeding the community, right, we have to better equip the network's leaders to provide solutions and support to feed out into their different orbits. Like, I'm in multiple orbits, and so I can kind of see what's happening here and here and here and here. For those people that are just in one orbit, how are we going to make sure that they get the nutrients that they need from the experience that they have in that interaction with that organization? Well, if we're all collaborating and we're having a conversation around a table, that person who needs nutrients that this organization can't provide gets sent over to a collegial conversation that was just had at a roundtable. Hey, I was just talking to the leader of such and such. And they were— they're actually working on something that you should probably go and help them with because you're a subject matter expert and that's what you do. But we're not having those bigger conversations.

No, we go to our corners, you know, it's like— and we stay siloed. So what we're saying is stop that.

Yes.

Actually have collaboration.

Mm-hmm. Actually have real, real meaningful collaboration.

Yes.

Not check the box collaboration.

Right. Not holding back something because, hey, I'm going to put this on a shelf just in case I need it one day. I'm going to say this is not in my wheelhouse or there's a better way to deal with this, a better organization. Let's go ahead and get this other organization involved.

Right.

I like it. I like it.

But the caveat to that is somebody's got to lead.

Yes.

So what happens is you get 17, 15, 100 voices, whatever, and everyone's got ideas and everyone's doing— and then we go back to our corners because we can only be here for this really awesome time. I shared with you that Ignite Lakeland sign that we did. And it was, it was an amazing experience we all enjoyed. But the people who were involved would probably tell you nothing came of it.

Was it because there was no, was there no orchestration? Is that what it is? There was no conductor?

Well, it was, it was, it was feeding into a place that had nowhere to go.

Gotcha.

So we've had conversations when, when new mayors have come into office and this is their platform. This is something that they were very interested and passionate about. So now there's forums and conversations and everything, and it's just not connecting beyond that moment. So if it dies at the staff level, not that staff is at fault, but staff has jobs to do, and it's not written into their job description. So I don't really know the answer to that piece, who's supposed to orchestrate it, and that's probably why it hasn't happened. I can acknowledge this is not easy work. But if it were easy, we would have been doing it because we're all really, really smart people around here. So we've—

some of us, not me. But, you know, I just play one on TV.

But I think that that's my answer to what solutions look like. And I think when we talked about the Hub in Episode 2, creating an organization that stands in that space, whose responsibility is to to really be supportive to all of the different corner organizations. With that being in mind, that's accountability. If there's an organization whose job it is to do that, then we hold them accountable. And the stakeholders know that they're getting what they paid into or paid in for because they're feeling that mutual beneficial experience. Yeah, right. That's how— that's the litmus test.

It's just, it is something completely new. For this community and for this county, right?

We need to go on some city visits because it's not new in every city. It's not new in every county.

But, but again, just like, you know, our founding fathers were so great at doing the Federalist Papers as a way to get people to buy into this new thing called a constitution, how do we get the buy-in of our civic and org leaders for a new way of thinking, a collaborative way of thinking, instead of siloing how we've always done it? How do we get away from the pay-to-play?

Right. Well, how do we get away from the pay-to-play? I think the answer is how does this episode resonate? Yeah. Do people respond to people? Feel like what we're talking about lands for them? We don't— if we don't know, then, then we won't be able to take it to another level. But if we're— to me, the thing is, I have been— I feel like I always describe it like I'm like a little woodpecker. Don't forget, don't forget, don't forget small business. Don't forget entrepreneurs. We matter too. We're important. We have really great things that we can provide to the community, blah, blah, blah. I mean, that's how I feel, but I'm one person. So if the floodgates were to open and everyone were to listen to this episode and go, yes, I agree, this matters, this is important, then there's a little bit more than just, you know, two people on a microphone. Now we're creating movement. Now we're creating traction and we're moving into a direction that might be able to be solutions-focused. But that's fair warning. It's work.

It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to do anything, though. Anything that is worth doing is going to be a lot of work.

Absolutely.

You know, and this is where we need to make the decision. Are we willing to do the work? If we want to see the change in the world, you got to put in the work. I'm sure that's not how that saying goes, but it sounded good to me.

And it has to be more than just about me.

Yes.

And that's the overwhelming feeling of the work I have felt called to do. And as cheesy as it may sound to you, I truly feel like this is calling. And it would be so much easier for me to tap out. I want to tap out sometimes. I'm exhausted. I don't feel like what I'm doing matters. I'm worrying about things that I can't control. And there are people that have more leverage or more opportunity to be able to make a better difference than I do. But I don't know that they have the passion. Right. And so we've got to match things together. You know, I've got the passion. You've got the passion. We're here having these conversations. We see eye to eye on the things, but marching forward—

Not everything. Well, not everything.

The Seminoles.

Oh, don't even, don't even. We got to look at the clock here. We got a couple of minutes left.

Okay.

We're going to, we're going to land the plane here. Paying to play, if you want small business owners, if you want people who do not have corporate expense accounts to have a voice in your organization and you don't want quiet disconnection, don't do it the way that you've always done it. Start thinking of a different way. Start thinking of a way where we can have a win-win-win all the way around. And if it's, well, if you need to have money to have skin in the game, money is a lazy filter.

I love that. I love that.

It filters for wealth. It does not filter for commitment or expertise. Yes. Polk County cannot afford to filter its talent pool by what their net worth is. And if you want my input or your input or the people that don't necessarily have the money to put forth, but have the knowledge change the way you're doing things.

Yeah, man, I'm not going to say anything else because you just landed the plane. Yeah, it's like it's one of those landings that where everyone in the plane claps because the pilot just did it so smoothly.

We thought we were going to crash.

No, no. You know those landings where it's like you don't even feel the wheels touch the ground like that was just like we glided in for the landing.

Yeah.

That was amazing.

All right, we're going to wrap it up. Thank you so much again for continuing to like and subscribe to the Polk or Elevate Polk YouTube channel or listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

We really appreciate the comments. So if you've got a comment, if you like that USF hat, if you want to say go Anne, she's in about 30 minutes, she's going to be playing.

So, all right, we'll see you again next week. Take care.

All right. Bye.