Eat More, Exercise Less: Rethinking Fitness After 50 | Thrive on Plants #62

Welcome to the Thrive on Plants podcast. I'm Dr. Daphne Bascom, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to join me today. This is going to be a fun conversation. If you've ever felt like the rules changed on you somewhere in your 40s or 50s, like the things that used to keep you lean and strong and energized just quietly stopped working, you're going to enjoy this episode. My guest today is Debra Atkinson, and Debra has spent more than 30 years in the fitness industry, but her path into it wasn't a straight line. She started out headed for a career in graphic design. Then in the summer between high school and college, she started walking with her mom. And by the end of the summer, she was a runner. And she discovered something she calls self-initiated fitness. Movement she chose for how it made her feel. And that changed everything. Deborah went on to teach kinesiology at Iowa State University for 15 years. And along the way, she noticed something that didn't sit right with her. The women she worked with were doing everything they've been told to do: eat less, exercise more. And they weren't getting the results they wanted or deserved. So she went looking for why. And what she found was that the science of exercise had largely been built around young men. The physiology of women in midlife, the physiology of menopause, was almost entirely missing from the conversation. So she took action. She built what wasn't there yet. She created Flipping 50, one of the first fitness approaches designed specifically around women navigating the menopausal transition. And she put a deceptively simple idea on the COVID of what I think is her first book, You Still Got It, Girl: Eat More, Exercise Less, Heal Hormones. A lot of people probably thought it was a typo, but it wasn't. It's the whole point. Now, here are some things that I want you to listen for in our conversation today. We talk about the scale and why it's one of the least useful numbers in the room, but we also talk about what to look for instead. We get into grip strength and the sit-to-stand test, 2 things that you can do at home this month to understand where you are today. We talk about sleep and the research showing that women who slept more lost more fat and held onto more muscle. And we talk about stress management and why your ability to recover more than your ability to work hard becomes the thing that matters as you age. And somewhere in there, Deborah gives us a phrase that I think many of us need to coin. She does not want to age gracefully. She wants, and I'm quoting her here, to age racefully. Drop the G. Get to the end of a long, well-lived life and say, wow, what a heck of a ride that was. Today we're having a conversation about building a body and a mind that you can count on for the long haul, not just adding years, but staying strong, capable, and fully alive inside of them. Now, please join me in welcoming Debra Atkinson to the Thrive on Plants podcast. Debra Atkinson, welcome to the Thrive on Plants podcast.

Thank you so much. I'm excited.

Well, I'm really excited because for me, you are a role model for resilience. When I listened to your TED Talk, I was like, holy cow. If you only knew what was going on during that TED Talk, you'd say the same. Well, I'm not certain. I have followed you for years, so thank you so much for what you do as a healthcare professional and giving back to the community. But if you wouldn't mind, would you share with our community a little bit about who is Debra Atkinson and why do you do what you do?

Well, you know, she's an Iowa girl and, you know, I'm back in Iowa. So that's a little fun because there is a saying, Iowa nice. I don't know that I qualify for Iowa nice. I'm back in Iowa and I certainly love those roads. I, babies are changing zip codes. So what pulled me back as opposed to Scottsdale or Boulder is a first grandson. So, um, and just interesting trivia for anybody listening, that's exactly who bought my house for the same reason. They were moving to be close to theirs. And I'm like, okay, this is it. These are our people.

Meant to be.

Yeah. So very fun. Um, you know, I grew up never ever imagining that I would be doing this. You know, fitness really wasn't, hadn't hit its peak. It wasn't a thing. It was a thing a few people did and you looked at them weirdly as they jogged down the street. You know, when I was growing up, I grew up with a notepad and pencils and watercolors, and I thought I was going to be a graphic designer until I was a sophomore in college actually. And I had started walking with my mom between high school and college. And by the end of the summer, I was actually a runner. I was jogging those places where she couldn't come along. I was doing more. And I was like, this is the first time I actually did self-initiated fitness. Not because I was in a sport and you had to run laps or in PE, but I was like, I didn't know this existed, this feeling and what comes from it. And so, you know, halfway through college, I was like working with, if you know graphic design, like some other majors, you put in a lot of lab hours for very few credits and lots of people stay up really late at night to work on their projects. And most graphic designers were known for smoking and drinking and staying up all night to do their projects. And I was like, I don't fit in here. Like, I'm just getting into this running thing and I'm And I'm buying a book like Laurel's Kitchen and learning how to make my own mayonnaise with eggs in the blender and all these goofy, geeky things. And so I stuck one foot in physical education for the semester and left the other one in coursework for graphic design. But by the end of the semester, I knew I was a teacher and really had never put that together before. When I look back, I was like, I always taught. I taught Sunday school and Bible school and I did do that. I just hadn't looked at that as something I really loved doing. So I wanted people to feel the way I did, be a better student, just be a better parent, be a better— at that time I wasn't a parent, but be a better daughter, be a better person, a better friend, be more awake, more alive. I wanted them to feel that. And as I stood in the back of classes doing aerobics, I was like, I wouldn't teach it like that, you know? And so I was like, I either stay back here and complain or I can start getting up to the front of the room and doing it in the way I thought. So I did the latter and have never looked back. So I've done all kinds of things. Like, you know, they say you work your way up from the bottom and I've used the toothbrushes on the toilets and worked at the front desk and folded towels and Did all the things that anyone in the fitness industry does as they come up in doing it all. And ultimately, I taught at the university in kinesiology for 15 years. And again, so finding my way back to actually teaching, not just teaching fitness, and absolutely loved it. What I didn't love is the limitations in academia and how slow it was to implement something and go. Jumping through hoops to get permission. And I loved the private sector where you could make a decision in the morning and implement it by the afternoon. So when I left the university, it was for this reason that I saw for 15 years we were losing all of the really great students. They'd go out and do their internships and then they'd come back to me for a letter of recommendation pretty soon after that. saying, I don't want to market and sell. That's not why I got into this. And they didn't know how to do it in a way that didn't feel sleazy to them. So we would lose them. And I, for whatever reason, it's not because I had parents who were entrepreneurs or in sales, not at all. But it always made sense to me that I can't help these people if I don't sell them something because we all— When we pay, we pay attention. They've got to be committed themselves. I can't want it more than they do.

Yeah.

So I really left to save those good ones and teach them marketing and sales in a way that they could just see, I need to do this. Like I'm talking to my mom or my sister and I want them to do it for their health. I need to teach them how to do that and feel good about it. So the fitness industry, levels up and we don't just have marketers, we have people who really service it with the heart and can make a living at it because that's the other thing we would hear. I can't make a living, I have to get a real job. And that just was wrong.

Yeah. So you really wanted to train educators?

I did.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then 5 minutes later, I realized if I quit and I'm only doing this, I pretty soon am really irrelevant because I'm just saying, do Do this, do that, but I'm not doing it and demonstrating this is what works. So I realized at the same time, I need to choose a niche and I need to continue doing it and show them here's the results I got by doing this in order to not be— there were several sales kinds of people floating around the fitness industry at the time who weren't actually running businesses. They were just trying to teach sales. And that never really worked or resonated for me when I went to talks by them. I was like, but how are you like me? How are you showing me?

You know?

And so I chose the one niche that since I was 24, I was working with, and that was baby boomer women, basically. So at that point, no longer are they baby boomers. So we've got, you know, the younger generations going through it now, but they were the ones who really tread through menopause. The loudest. It was like, I'm not taking this from my doctor. Like, we have to put up with this. Like, you know, welcome to menopause is what my doctor is saying. I'm not going to do that. And so thankfully, you know, we've got people who are just setting the path for us and laying it down. And so as we started digging into the little amount of science using subjects, that are females, particularly in midlife. But overall, you know, it began to make sense why they're doing everything right. They're doing everything I would have told them as an exercise prescription and they deserve results, but aren't getting it. Then it began to make sense. And so digging deeper to exercise physiology plus menopause physiology, we're going to have to do this ourselves for a while. And it's getting better, but we're still behind.

When you said welcome to menopause, I thought of welcome to Medicare, but, and it's, you know, Debra, thank you for sharing that because I don't know that everyone realizes the health and fitness industry has been here a long time, but menopause physiology, and I love how you phrased that, I don't think it was nothing I ever learned. I had to educate myself.

It's still not.

No. The fact that you came upon that so early was incredible.

Yeah, it was a little scary, honestly. So when I started talking about it, nobody was talking about it. And usually if you are going into business, if some business coach was gonna give you advice, the rule of thumb is you want some demand. You You want people looking for something and asking about it. And, you know, all I got was, that's a really good idea. Nobody's doing that. And I said, I, yeah, but shouldn't somebody be doing that? So, you know, it was a little hard and there was a lot of pushback because the loudest voices at the time were males.

Yes.

You know, with large podcasts and they were just like, So you're saying we have to train women differently? And I'm like, you might wanna consider it.

Yeah.

You know, there are reasons why just pushing harder is not gonna work. And so, yeah, it was, it was different at first and it's so much different than today. I mean, I think if we go back even 2 years, we've come so far in such a short time. It's amazing.

So maybe you could help articulate, because it's something I hear it all the time. A lot of women come into our program who are maybe 35 to 65, and they realize that they're reaching this time in their life when they want to get healthier, but all the tricks they used to do aren't working, number one.

Mm-hmm.

And number two, Even though things have changed in the past several years, the eat less, move more societal overlay has not changed.

It's true.

So how did you reframe that as you started developing your own— now, when did Flip in 50 become a reality for you? And what is that message for women about the fact that Eat less, move more does not work.

So really the framework was coming as I started to do small groups in 2013. I started doing, I tried a 4-week and then I tried 7 weeks and then I tried 6. So I'm like, where's the sweet spot here where I can give them enough information and have it not be overwhelming as I, as I do this? And so that was coming and The URL and the name and all of that came later. And I was like, I just, this name is kind of flat. All the things I was using just until Flipping 50. And it's like, that's it because it is the mindset and it's flipping it into something very different than your mother had, you know, and the way that she aged. And, you know, half my friends are thinking middle finger flipping and others are thinking flipping. whole concept. And I'm like, whatever way you want to go, I don't care. It's the same. But that's when it got to be more fun for me that, you know, this is both about how we do menopause right now, but how we do that, because we're talking muscle and bone and brain health is how we age. And so it was longevity, but I wasn't putting that word on it certainly until Probably Dr. Peter Attia's book came out and everybody's using that word, you know, as the keyword of 2024, probably. Um, you know, so it's totally about, you know, how we do today and our, how we do our tomorrows.

Yes.

That wasn't born until You Still Got It, Girl. And we flipped that in the COVID and just said, you know, you gotta eat more, exercise less. And so that it was a disruptor, you know, not a typo as many thought. Did you get that wrong?

No, you got that right. I'm just glad you're— so I love that someone else that can say it to our community, because I say that and I'm sure they think you're crazy. You've got it backwards.

Right, right, right. And it is so hard. I think back to your question on, you know, the dogma doesn't go away. And I think Most of all, the most harmful thing is it's like it got in here at a time when we were really impressionable and then kind of stays in there. And even though logically somebody is going to listen to this the next time they go to order at a restaurant, they can't not think about, you know, like which thing has the fewest calories. And I think anybody who struggled with weight, but almost any woman ever could probably give you a good guesstimate of this is the fewest calories. And I, you know how women are. Nobody, nobody's clueless about that. We know.

And I love that you went to mindset first, because I know we were talking before we started recording about the fact that it's mindset also means prioritizing yourself. And learning how to set boundaries and knowing that you are worth the investment. How do you— to me, that's as important as changing our mindset framework around our bodies in terms of eat less, move more. But if I don't feel I'm worth it, I won't make the investment.

Well, You know, I would say I haven't given up on that, but I would say that I'm circling the wagon more in the idea that talking to women about the legacy that they're leaving and getting them to look at, this is not just about you. This is about you and the 3 generations at the least that you influence. And whether we admit it or not, we're leaving a legacy. So it's starting to look at what will they remember? What are they choosing because of you? And I think sometimes we don't see it for, we don't see it for years, maybe decades later, you know, but, you know, little things start to drip in. You know, people are watching, like the most important people. I, I go back to a singular conversation that I had with my significant other. He and my son, who's probably 9 at the time, and I were having lunch at a restaurant. And I think I got up to use the restroom as they came to take our orders. And, you know, they were going to, you know, order for me. And so, should we get that for your mother? And Dustin, my son, is like, oh no, she won't eat that. Like, you know, and so it was very clear that he had been paying attention, you know, that there were certain things that mom did and didn't do. So it was interesting, but I think it's decades later you begin to see or hear little things said. You know, my son says to me, you're going to live to 120, like, you know, and kind of nonchalantly. It's like, Huh. Okay. Well, I'm like, when are you going to start, you know, doing X, Y, and Z? But you just got to hope that they catch it because it's contagious. And whatever we're doing, we are role modeling. And so if you are living the life and you have energy and optimism and you're loving it, you're setting the pace for— that's the example that they want to follow. They're not necessarily gonna join the gym or go to the gym or do the exercise because you're doing the exercise, but because you get the outcome you have, they want that. And then they will pay attention. I think that ripple effect that women in midlife have is potentially a more powerful thing. If you can't yet get to the place where you're gonna do this for yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Doing it because of that greater and that urge to serve. This is another way you serve.

And I love that you mentioned that you recently relocated to Iowa because you have a grandbaby there, which ties into, I mean, your son said you wanna live to 120, but you wanna live to 120 as you live now. And I don't know if these are conversations that you have with your community at all, but something that I've started to talk more about. And, you know, I love that Dr. Attia, when Outlive came out, really popularized the concept of longevity and healthspan. But I like to think about peakspan because I don't just want to think about the absence of disease. I want to be as optimally healthy at 80 as I am now at 60. How do you, you know, what, especially with your background in kinesiology and exercise science, how do we change the mindset from, you know, yes, I love all of the longevity conversations. I follow Bryan Johnson. I follow— Dr. Longo, but I want to just kind of fall off the cliff, but I wanna be as vibrant as I am today.

Yeah. Yeah, me too. And I, I don't know that I wanna fall off the cliff, but I like that saying. And I think it was anonymous who said that, a very cool chick probably. But you know, it's something like, you know, you get to the, the end of your life, you know, skidding to a halt in a body well used, saying, wow, what a ride. That's You know, so when somebody says, I want to age gracefully, I'm like, take off the G. I want to age racefully. Let's just raise some eyebrows, you know? But maybe you said, you know, in my background of kinesiology, I think potentially the background that I have that makes the most difference is that of exercise psychology. And I went back to grad school. For that, because somehow even young, and I was raised by older parents, maybe that's it. I could see that we're not going to get here down, you know, the neck down if we don't get between the ears. And that's really where it matters so much more. And I do think you're exactly right. We do much more. I want you to meditate. I want you to, what do you see for your future? And tapping into what are you thinking about most? What you don't want? You know, are you thinking about the weight that you want to lose? Because you kind of get to hold onto it if you're thinking about that, as opposed to what do you want to be able to do? How's that going to feel? You know, what kind of freedom of movement do you have? Describe it. So I think those things we've shifted to that too. And I think that is where we get stuck. I think most women tend to, the gravity, the habit gravity of our old thoughts, so, so significant that we think about what we don't want. We think about the aches and the pains, and it's hard not to if you've got them. I realize that. But we have to spend a little time, I think, in total quiet, not scrolling, imagining what it is we want and who we have to be in order to get it.

And that is huge. We, as part of our longevity program, we actually have All of our participants write a letter to their 90-year-old self.

Very cool. Yeah.

Because that's who— is everything you're doing aligned with what you want him or her to be able to do at 90? And I don't think we think about it because we all live in— you're right, stop scrolling. We all live in today as opposed to thinking about what's the trajectory I'm on to get to That 90-year-old Daphne. Um, and am I making the right decisions for her regardless of the noise that is circling us every single day?

Agree. And I, I think too, another thing we do in our community is I try to get other women to do this for each other, but try to catch their language, how they're saying something. You know, and, and it is so key that you are able to hear how you've defaulted in how you're talking about yourself. And, and then when you have somebody catch it, catching it yourself in the future, that's, that's a game changer.

That accountability works.

Mm-hmm.

Now talking about noise, Because I, I'm not on social media as much as I probably should be. I don't even have Facebook on my phone anymore, but I go on because I have to. I like to see what conversations are occurring, but in, you know, preparing for our conversation, one of the things that I loved was your approach to women's nutrition.

Mm-hmm.

And again, not eating 1,000 calories or 1,100 calories, but fueling your body with adequate nutrients and healthy protein in a way that will help, that's aligned with meeting your goals. What wisdom do you have to share related to nutrition? And I'm going to make this a 2-part question because— I also am bombarded by, buy this supplement, buy that supplement, eat this. And I feel like I could have a cabinet full of supplements that are meant to supplement, not be the priority. But how do you cut down on the noise and advise women? What are the facts around nutrition?

It's a great point. And I'm going to backtrack just for a second. Because I think this is very relevant to the same talking about longevity in regard to supplements or any gadgets. You know, I think we get so caught up in the marketing and the labeling that this is meant to sustain you and to calm you. And yet it's another electronic. It's like, for a minute I'm like, isn't that just wrong? What if we just went outside? Like, would that be okay? But I think we get so caught up in like living longer or living better. It's almost become a competition and we're forgetting the basics. Like somebody's asking, should I be taking creatine? Or, you know, do I need to take essential amino acids? And I'm like, well, how much protein are you getting in your diet?

Right.

I mean, and they haven't even, they don't know. They don't know. And I'm like, let's start there. Let's see if we can do it from whole food first and see what difference that makes. And yes, you might want to, but let's do the basics from the ground floor first. And we forget how easy that is. I think we default to it being expensive. And to your point with supplements, my counter right now, like yours probably is covered in people want you to try X, Y, and Z, and then tell everybody about it. And I'm— today I think I turned 3 people down and I just said, no, I just said, I can't, I don't need to do this overwhelm for people. Just, there are a few staples that I use. I'll tell people about them and why I do it. But again, basics first, let's make sure you even need it before we go further. And I think that's the biggest one. So many people I think we really need to simplify.

Mm-hmm.

As you know, the American College of Sports Medicine just had a key meeting and in March revamped after 17 years, the strength training guidelines for adults, not necessarily older adults, but for, you know, 18 to 65-year-olds. A long time in coming, but the reason they did it is they have smart people like Dr. Stuart Phillips on that board who says, It's been 40 years. We're not penetrating anybody. The same percent of people are not doing exercise. You know, it's, and I, we talked about that years ago in the fitness center, you know, in a small town. And we would look at, you know, we're not getting more people in. It's like the same people kind of go through a program and then they move and they go to a different program and they'll go to a different program and they'll be back, but we're not getting to the people who really need us. So I think that was brilliant. I think we need to take that into everything, you know, how we eat, and let's make that a little bit easier. And just what if you don't even change the food you're eating, but you change the sequence to affect your blood sugar level more? And just, I think that starting to take control or get curious about the foods on your plate. That's a big step for a lot of people.

And, you know, talking about all the supplements that are coming out, and this is a side question, and if you're not prepared to answer, please just push back. But what should we be doing differently? Because, you know, we see all of these supplements being advertised on our feed, but I don't see broccoli popping up on my feed and I don't see beans popping up on my feed. So how, going back to eating real food, we're not advertised to eat real food. It's true.

They're few and far between. I think right now, if it doesn't have cottage cheese in it, forget it. You're just not going to see it. All right. I mean, I'm a little tired of seeing cottage cheese everywhere versus—

It's top of the list right now.

Uh, you know, I think you're exactly right. We just, again, so potentially you and I need to, if we're doing any posting, need to post something on broccoli and just 5 ways to make broccoli and what you're going to get from it. But that is, I think we're forgetting and We are, we're living in a fast food world and then trying to supplement on top of it.

Yeah.

It's crazy. And I would have to say this, and I think I'm safe in saying this because I don't think probably my son's going to listen to this episode. Sorry to say, but they get takeout, carry-in a lot. And I'm like, why would you do that? And, and yet it's convenience. And I think the cost of convenience is going to catch up with us. I think we probably, our generation has it better than anybody did in regard to, I'm guessing more of us sat around the dinner table with our parents and talked about our days.

We did.

And I had to sit there till that tater tot casserole was Gone. That was awful.

Yep.

You know, but those things just, they're not happening as much. We played outside, you know, and this generation did less of it. The one being born now, will they do that? I don't know. So it's an interesting time that we live in. And I do think we should be teaching and showing the basics. There are a couple food channels, accounts that I follow. And really it's, I follow because it is basics. Like they're just making whole real food with pretty simple steps. And I think people are looking for that. I don't know that women do it. I don't know that we all do it, but I know we want to because we keep following them.

Yes. Yeah. And you're right. And I love how Shawn Stevenson sometimes talks about it because same here. When we were, when I was growing up, dad came home, we all sat down for dinner together. You ate what was on your plate regardless. If you didn't like it, you could be at the table a long time. Yeah.

You had to put it into a napkin and into the garbage can and then climb back into your chair. I had a system. Yeah.

That could get you to bed early too. But, you know, talking about back to the ACSM guidelines, I heard you sharing on one of your recent podcasts that you've been teaching clinicians how to implement some very basic measures in their office setting.

Yeah.

And I'd love for you to talk about that because You know, the taking your blood pressure, taking your stepping on a scale. These are all great proxies for health, but they're not necessarily able to assess what is your body composition? What is your strength? Are you, you know, some of us observe, and it's one thing I used to love to watch is if I could see someone walk from the waiting room into the office, that sometimes told more of a story. Did they have to push up out of the chair or— what are you doing to help bridge this gap for health and care? And I'm separating them because we do care great, but we don't really assess health well. This is Daphne's perspective.

Wow, that is rich. And I think, you know, in trying to teach physicians and penetrate that, there's a couple obstacles. Number one, when you've got a short office visit, if it's a typical, you know, Western-trained doctor trying to get people in and get out, and I don't even, you probably know the number better than I do, the average number of patients that a doctor sees in a day, there's not very much time. So We gave 2 easy tests to them. One that tests their total body strength or correlates with it. So total, their grip strength, hand grip strength. So no sweat, don't have to, it's not invasive. Don't have to get undressed, nothing, just, you know, 3 grips and you do it on both sides. So we have a better idea of how that correlates. The interpretation of that is where does that fall? And the more important interpretation, be sure you're patient doesn't leave thinking they should squeeze tennis balls to improve that, right? It's not about that. So it makes me think of the brother I had in high school who walked around with that squeezy thing all the time. And like, that's not it. It correlates with the whole package. And then we do a sit to stand in a chair. So just any standard chair so that it's also something you're not just having them do, you're teaching them. You could do this at home really easily.

Mm-hmm.

And if we can gamify it for somebody like, let's all do it, you know, at home and in the family. And my family comes over for Thanksgiving, they know they're doing the hand grip test, right? So it's fun. But those 2 things, total body strength, and then having them do the sit to stand. So shows us function, shows us power actually is what we're measuring, and shows us a little bit of stability and balance. Because if they're struggling with that, we know, we know we'd probably better be looking at them for sarcopenia and doing further testing. But you know, there are easy ways to do it, 30 seconds, or we can just do it with someone we don't think will make 30 seconds, ask them to do 5 and time them on that. So you don't need any extra things. You, we've got a chair at home, standard dining room chairs are 17 inches, give or take. That's good enough.

Mm-hmm.

Just repeat using that same chair. And, um, the grip, the hand grip dynamometer is what it's called. $30 to $35 probably will get you a really nice one from Amazon. It'll be here this afternoon if you don't live in Iowa. That's, yeah, it takes a little longer here, just saying. But those 2 really make it, I think, no matter what we do in our society with the number of influencers or trainers or health coaches, I think physicians will always still have authority and credibility. And when they make fitness important, patients will listen.

Yeah. But this is, to me, it's a team sport because you're right. It may be that in a 15 or 30-minute office visit, you as the clinician may not have time to implement these. But referring someone to you or teaching your MA to do a hand grip strength test, 6 feet, 6 foot up and go, a sit to stand test. It doesn't even having, you know, your patient recorded on their iPhone or whatever phone they have.

Mm-hmm.

And you can look at that video and probably in 10 or 15 seconds assess whether they're needing assist to get up out of that chair or whether they're still functioning independently. I feel like we, we need to step out of, I have to do it and look at the care team as a we and who has the capacity, not just to assess, but once you've done the assessment. So now I have, you know, my, let's say my hand grip strength is 10 pounds. That's, it's not, but—

Okay, good. I'm coming over there.

You tell a patient that, what do I do? So, you know, Dr. Debra, what do I do to get stronger? And should I worry about this at all?

Absolutely. Don't worry about it, but take action on it.

Yes. I love that. Yeah. Take action, but don't worry.

Right.

Right.

The only place to go is up. Right. And yeah, I think, yeah. And the great, the great news is that, you know, we're seeing more and more research done on older adults suggesting what we have known for decades, but I think it takes fresh research to get somebody's attention. You know, 85+ year olds are gaining both strength and muscle mass, which, you know, for years We've known they can gain strength, but the fact that they can gain muscle mass is relatively new. So that's exciting.

It, and it shouldn't, well, yeah, it shouldn't be new, but it is because of the focus we've had in terms of who we're researching on.

True, true. And, you know, I think A lot of people are not, you know, anybody who's not exercising previous to, and they, they're 85, they start a strength training program. You know, that's like being a virgin. Everything is wonderful. Right. So it's all going to be great. So they're going to make progress for sure.

Mm-hmm.

But I think it's also exciting to know if we can gain a little mass, we can change body composition. We're getting quality tissue. going. And those people are going to feel better. And maybe we can still impact mitochondria for energy levels at all levels.

And why is— this is a conversation I actually had with our, with a group of women last weekend. What's the difference between the number on the scale versus my body composition? I mean, if I get to that magical number, aren't I healthy?

No, no. And, you know, it is so hard. And I, and probably you too, there are a lot of intelligent women out there, but again, I mean, we've been brainwashed and conditioned for years, you know, decades that the weight is what matters. And so I'm working through this with a private client right now. You know, we've talked about, you know, we want to— I want you to have a bioimpedance or a smart scale. Let's make sure we're looking at skeletal muscle mass. And so we know if we're keeping it, we're losing it, or we're maintaining it in addition to the body composition or the body fat. And she keeps commenting, you know, I've gained a couple of pounds and I'm like, well, what is it? Is it muscle? Is it fat? What, what are you seeing? And I said, you know that women can fluctuate between 3 and 5 pounds any given day. Do you know?

You know?

And so there's so much going on, but to your point, what we need is more body composition focus. We want to look at where's your percent body fat. Do we need to lose some? Do we, are we okay in a healthy range right there? And where's our muscle? Are we under-muscled? Do we have the strength to say, pass some of these tests or your functional tests of daily living? If you live in a 2-story house, are you breathless when you go upstairs? You know, can you carry a load of laundry and go upstairs and be okay with that? There are lots of measures and benchmarks that you could look at. But we could be under-muscled. We could be over-fat. We could be both beginning to shift that percent. So we're skewing it no matter what the weight on the scale says. And there are a lot of women who will probably for our lives anyway, struggle with this.

Mm-hmm.

And hopefully younger generations will have grown up with a slightly different message and will over time change this. But I think we will still struggle with it. You may weigh more than you ever have before. If you have more muscle, you're focusing on strength training. However, you may wear the same size or even a smaller size because you are more compact. And yet, what is wrong with taking up space if you're energetic and you're able to do the things you love to do and you have more energy?

100% agree. And as you've been training some of the physician offices, have they, have you seen any change in just having people step on the scale versus actually understanding body composition? Because if you're seeing, you know, if you're a family practitioner and you're seeing the same family 10, 20 years, you can probably start to see an inflection point in their muscle mass that probably correlates with their hand grip strength or could, whether you're talking sarcopenia, dyneupenia, power penia. But how do we get away from the scale in the clinician's office too? Because that could help— that can help bridge the gap for people understanding that. Your mass is simply— your mass doesn't define you. How you— what that mass is composed of is much more important.

You know, ironically, and it's probably— I have a very select group of people who would bring me in and they are probably much more aware that we need to be going down this path. I'm seeing more physicians who actually have an InBody Or another brand of an impedance scale. So they are looking at the, you know, intracellular water and they're looking at each limb and the skeletal muscle and as well as body composition with the weight collectively and doing a pretty good job of interpreting that. But I, I think the consumers are almost wiser in some slower to catch on, you know, maybe small, more rural areas. They know better that, you know, they're still looking at my BMI, you know, and they'll say to me, and I'm like, okay, well, you at least know the secret. So spread the word. Don't keep it a secret.

Yeah. So one other The thing that I love hearing you talk about, because it's so important to me, is sleep yourself strong. And it sounds like an oxymoron, but why is sleep so important no matter what age phase of your life? And how do you sleep yourself strong?

Relative to fitness, it could go either way. So number one, let's say you're a woman who's struggling with sleep, whether you always have or it hit midlife or later, you're going to struggle to comply with exercise even if you want to. You know, we've all missed a night of sleep and had the best intentions to do, you know, exercise of X, Y, and Z. And, you know, that just doesn't sound very good. You know, another cup of coffee or You know, just nothingness sounds better. So number one, I think you're going to struggle with that. And number two, during that same scenario, if I'm a trainer and I'm working with someone and wanting them to exercise, we're trying to cover pillars of, I want you to work on stability and I want you to work on agility, fast reaction skills. You don't want to do that the day after, the morning after you've had a poor night's sleep, because Your blood alcohol count didn't change. However, your coordination reaction skills did, like you would if you had been picked up for a DWI. So that much, 2 hours of sleep loss changes it significantly. So that's the morning when you're trying to do agility drills or move left or right and go for the ball in pickleball, that you're more likely to go down. Because you're, you can't quite coordinate and you don't realize it. If you've lost 4 hours, far worse. I mean, really significant. And somebody thinks lost 2 hours, I never do that, but you, it's really easy to do. You shortsheet yourself by, I'm going to finish the movie. You stay up a little later than you maybe should have and were ready for bed. You get up a little bit earlier because the dog gets you up or There's a storm, you know, you lose a little sleep in the middle of the night because somebody's got sleep apnea or the, the dog is barking or thunder and lightning. There it goes. You're almost at 2 hours very easily. So, you know, we also have a sleep debt that can catch up with us if we've had it over time. So number one, coordination and safety. When you're trying to comply and do the exercise, maybe you shouldn't. So I would say to any of those agility things, The answer I believe is do exercise, but maybe not on the treadmill. Go for a walk outdoors, get exposure to sunlight, help yourself stay in the habit to get a better night's sleep that night, but don't go for the quite as intense workout that you had planned because you're just not quite all there. But the other one is you also don't get to seal the deal and get the rewards if you have worked out and then you don't sleep really well.

Hmm.

Your muscle protein synthesis, even After one night's sleep is down. So you're in breakdown mode. We release testosterone and growth hormone in our deepest cycles of sleep. So you're, if you're somebody who wakes up frequently in the middle of the night and/or somebody's, again, it's often it's snoring or sleep apnea that will, somebody else's, not necessarily yours, that will wake you up. And it could be yours as well. So. Ladies, if you're dealing with this, you've tried everything. I definitely would get that checked. We've had several members in our community realize, I didn't even know I had that.

Yeah.

So you need it for both reasons, whether it's so that you can comply and you feel better and more energetic, and so that you can get the results you deserve. There was a study done quite a while ago now, so I think it came out in 2013 or '14. And it was a study in the Obesity Journal with women postmenopausal in a weight loss program.

Mm-hmm.

And they divided them into 2 groups, long sleepers, 9.5 hours of sleep, short sleepers were only given 6.5 hours to sleep. So they can't control that you sleep, but they made them go to bed for 9.5 hours. And the short sleepers, they only let them go for 6.5. At the end of the program, Everything else was fairly similar. The women were similar coming in, but at the end of the program, both groups had lost weight. So it was effective, but the long sleepers, the only difference between them had lost more weight and more of it was fat. They retained their muscle and that's significant. So if you're losing weight, we're hearing so much about this with GLPs, you know, and weight loss meds. That, you know, just be careful. You don't just want that number to change. You don't just want to be smaller. You want to retain your muscle while you're doing that, or metabolically we'll be worse off. So it's just, if we change nothing else, but you got better sleep, if you're struggling with weight loss resistance and you think you deserve it, try working on your sleep.

And thank you for saying that because I, I think a lot of people put sleep down the priority list when it comes to weight loss resistance in particular. And it keeps going back to, well, I, maybe I need to eat less, exercise more, as opposed to your point about the fact that hormone health requires a body that's restored.

Mm-hmm.

And rested. And I don't know if, you know, I don't know how you, how you frame the conversation in a way that helps women understand that your metabolic health is core to your body composition health. Because, you know, just thinking about the, that short sleeping, the people who retain more muscle, probably have better insulin sensitivity too. So it's not just a scale gain, it's a health gain. So how do you, how do we advise women on how best to structure an intentional exercise program that also supports their overall hormone health? That's a big question. That's probably a whole podcast, doesn't it?

Big question. And I think, like you said, it does start, it starts with sleep. You've got to make sure that we're, you know, we do an intake as I'm sure that you do. And we look at all parameters and often, you know, women are like, surprised that you're asking this because they're so used to a basic PAR-Q In a health or activity industry when they meet a trainer, join a gym. And so we're asking things about their elimination and their digestion and their brain focus and their libido. And I'm just trying to pick up clues to, you know, I don't need to order a lab test or look at your lab tests. You tell me probably as much as I need to know here, and then I know what's going on. And there are all these little moving parts, but we know which one is the top priority. So if a woman isn't sleeping, that's a top priority because cortisol, the testosterone and growth hormone that we talked about, the insulin, those things have to be in place. And it, I think, you know, a lot of women start going through menopause and the topic of menopause gets so— we're talking about estrogen and testosterone and progesterone. But the one through line that was there when we were younger and still could be problematic, and I think it is for younger women and it will still be with us when we're older, are cortisol and insulin. So if we really wanted to help ourselves, and I tell trainers this, help them modify their stress levels because that in turn will support them with sleep. And will help their workouts. Either they'll recover better and/or be able to work harder at their capacity, their personal capacity while they're doing it. And then again, recover. And that's what changes most is a woman's ability to recover, not necessarily her ability or capacity for hard work, but we've gotta be able to recover and we don't do as well with that as we age. And collectively men and women, but women more so because estrogen played such a dominant role in protecting us and allowing us to get better rest and get better sleep and support our muscle and our bone. So we won't be as good. And when that goes down, cortisol goes up. So we have to look at the very words you started with that I'm sure you hear all the time. And so do I. What I used to do that worked doesn't work anymore. And exactly, because we don't have the same hormone status that we did, so it won't work again, but you can be equally as fit. And for some more so, because not everybody was really fit when they were 30 or 20. So you may be better off when you're older than when you were younger, because now There's no guardrails. And I think a lot of us cheated. You know, I was a fitness instructor, trainer, worked at a university and, you know, I had all the credentials and all the alphabet soup and, you know, teaching so many classes, you know, I wasn't that fit. I was tired, right? A lot of Diet Coke, a lot of sugar-free cones from McDonald's to get up before that class again in the afternoon that I didn't really wanna teach, you know? And Yet people looked outwardly at you and I probably gauged myself. I am fit because I'm lean and, and/or thin or slim. And that's what we equated. But, you know, if I had some of that time back now, I'm guessing I could have been far more energetic, less reliant on caffeine and sugar than I needed to be. And that probably is going to catch up for me. The body comes with receipts, you know, so some of those little things that we've done. But that is really, I think the biggest key for all of us is looking at the gauge of stress. Exercise is a stress and it's why certain intensities don't work for every woman. If we just take the science that fat burning exercise, high intensity interval training is really going to support your fat burning, not during, but because of the after effects of it. But yet for some women already with chronic stressors or inflammation, that kind of exercise actually is like tipping point. And for the moment they're in, it won't work till we can decrease some of the other stressors and/or decrease the inflammation and then maybe reintroduce it again. It's not just that it won't work forever now. It just right now it may work.

It's like your own And how do you, and that's really important because I don't know, I don't know that we teach people well how to manage stress and it needs to be as big a part of an active recovery day as your training program. So programming in stress management techniques, I think is key for trainers. And coaches, but how do you, how do we help understand the pressures externally related to, well, I need to lift. I need to run to get my VO2 max. I need to do sprint training. I need to do box jumping. How do I fit all of that in without overstressing myself?

Mm-hmm.

One, do I need to do it all? And 2, how do we write a— how do each one of us assess where we are and then determine what's right for us and not necessarily take all of what we're seeing on social media and say, I have to implement all this today? Yeah.

Well, I think what you do is, in one way, You know, what do you envision? What do you want your 80-year-old, your 90-year-old self to be like? What will that look like? What's a day in the life? What are you doing? What are you able to do? How does it feel? So I think asking that first of all, for what is your measure of success, because it may be different than somebody else's. And I don't know that checking the box and making sure that my VO2 is perfect and my grip strength and I can dead hang longer than You know, the grandmother next door, or, you know, I, I, some of this may be less important to you. Maybe it's simply function, you know, that you're able to, um, there are pivotal points. I think if you watched your parents age or grandparents, and probably we all have been there, but taking the keys away from my mom, that was a hard day.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I believe my brother did it and said, the girls don't want you to do that. Guess who got a call next? Right? I'm like, wow. Oh, right. Wanted to remain the favorite. But you know, that's— I think about that is such a loss of independence. And what do we need to do? We need reaction skills. We need to stay mentally sharp. Physically, if you are fit and stronger and have more muscle, cognitively, you're going to do better at those tests, you know? And so let's hope, first of all, when you go to the DOT, they do the driving test because they did not, but that's their fault.

Ouch.

Right. So I think fitness testing, number one, is a good starting point, but I think It comes back to the conversation of what does it mean to you? You know, and we have a battery, we call it the longevity fitness scorecard, you know, and power and strength and stability, your ability, your VO2 max, or a field test for your cardio fitness. They're all on there and ways to just get curious. about them. And sometimes the learning curve is not what is your score, but is, can I even do that test? You know, with the knee replacement or degeneration or arthritis that I have, not all those tests are going to work, which is why we put a lot of them on there. So there's going to be something in every category you can do. I think getting curious about it and then looking at what do I want to do? What am I willing to do? And you've got to want it. Nobody can want it for you more than you do. And I think that's a big distinguishing feature. So we can talk all we want about fitness, but if it's not something that someone else really wants, nobody would say, I want to die sicker, older, or fatter. Nobody's going to say that, but do we want to make the changes? that will make that less likely to happen. That's a different story. And we each have to kind of go inside and ask ourselves, what am I willing to do or wanting to do? So I think that's a big one, but I think it helps to just get a look at things bigger than your cholesterol numbers, your blood pressure, your resting heart rate, and your weight and say, Here's how I'm functioning. This is what's working and not working. And that I think is a starting point. So we're probably preaching to the choir. We've got a lot of people who are listening to this who are already there, but likely have other people in their lives that maybe are not coming along for the ride.

Right.

And I think I've learned at some point nagging didn't work, so I had to let people, I love come to me and ask questions instead and just do what I wanted to do and what made me feel good and hopefully lead by example. And that's probably the best way. And every once in a while you get a little reward and, you know, somebody's asking you a question and so they're paying attention.

And that, so the ripple effect is real. I agree with you. And if it's, if you can impact that in your girlfriend group or in your family, it may take months for them to hear. And I loved how you said earlier, don't worry, take action. I think taking action is key, but everyone has to do it on their own timeline.

Agree. And I don't think to your point about, do I need to do the power jumping and the, do I need to do all of the things? I think you choose and you start. And I think some of the things that we need to do are less time-consuming than we realize, you know, doing high-intensity interval training. That's a maximum of 5 minutes a week, right? So it's, it's just getting breathless and then it's recovering completely. And even 1 or 2 times during a session also help move the needle for your VO2 or your cardiovascular fitness. But a lot of those things are hidden in a warmup or a cooldown or between other things you are already doing. And they can become games. You know, if you have children still, or you have grandchildren, You know, they love to jump, so they'll be all over doing that with you.

Get out that jump rope or do your hopscotch, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Deborah, I need to be cognizant of your time because I'm really enjoying this conversation and I could keep going, but I have a couple rapid-fire questions I'd love to ask you if you still have a few minutes.

Sure.

Yep. Okay. What in your mind is the single most overrated piece of fitness advice for women over 50?

Lift heavy shit. And pardon my French, but that is the way it's phrased. And that is what's wrong with it.

Nope. It's all over right now. Along the lines of lift heavy shit, what's the one strength move you would keep if you could only program one move for the rest of a woman's life?

I'm gonna say deadlift. And I will tell you, so this is not rapid fire if I tell you more about it, but you know, I, Didn't teach deadlifts for a really long time. And so I was reluctant to jump on the trend and this bandwagon, in part because if you're teaching them to somebody and they're not in the room with you. So as I was teaching online, it concerned me that the origin of the hamstrings inserting to the glutes often is a pull or a strain for women.

Mm-hmm.

And You know, I come from a do no harm, so risk and reward. And so, you know, I was a lot more leaning into squats and lunges and other lower body work. But the value of a deadlift is that you're going to be picking up the potting soil and the dog food and the babies and the dogs.

Yeah.

And we need it. You're going to be doing it anyway. So it's all in. How you do it, do the mechanics first, do the form first, then slowly load before you ever do power and just make sure you're progressing really well.

It's such a functional move. Yeah. Yeah. And what's one thing that you believed in your 40s that you now have evidence that you now no longer believe or that you now no longer teach?

Well, I could say that I no longer participate, and that would be, you can take the joy of it too far. So I was an endurance lover, and I've trained for 8 iron-distance triathlons, and it was the last one that killed me.

Oh, no.

thought I'm not going to have all these signs and symptoms. I must have evaded this because I was already fit and, and I teach this and I know what I'm doing. And, and I hit my critical mass of hormonal change while I was adding all of the stressors of the long endurance training, which is really the nemesis of a woman in midlife, to tell you the truth. And, and so I was getting away with it. Kind of knew that, but I think you still have to be smart. I think you need to find exercises and activities that bring you joy. But at some point, again, the body comes with receipts. So, you know, there's a point where you'll look at something very differently and say, my head would love to do another Ironman. The rest of me knows That will accelerate your aging. Do you really want to do that? And then that's winning.

So, so far. Yeah. So you're not, you don't have another one on the books right now?

I don't. Last year I left a very expensive backpack in Cozumel and did not pick it up. Yeah.

Could you finish this sentence for me? Strong women age.

Racefully.

I love that. Without the G.

Without the G. Yes. Getting to the end, skidding to a halt in a well-used body, saying, wow, what a ride.

And last question, so I can let you get ready for your next appointment. What does living with purpose mean to you?

I think it's getting up every morning, looking forward to, even if it's work, it's worthwhile.

Mm-hmm.

So it doesn't matter how old you are, if you're retired or you're not, but I think we all need that something pulling us up. It matters. And whether or not it matters to anybody else, it matters to you. And you know, It will have a, it will make a difference to other people too.

Awesome. And Deborah, I hope you know that you're making a difference in the world. And I appreciate you coming on the Thrive on Plants podcast to share your wisdom with other women and men, because I think there are multiple people who listen in this community. But all the things that you've been helping educate, um, both coaches, menopause professionals, healthcare professionals, thank you for what you do because your purpose has enlightened many of us. And I really appreciate that.

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me, you're a wonderful host.

You're welcome. And I hope to have you back either when you do your next Ironman, write your next book.

Might be waiting a minute. For that first one. For book?

Okay, then, then after your next book.

Okay, deal.

Debra, thank you.

Thank you.

The information shared on the Thrive on Plants podcast is intended solely for educational and informational purposes. It is not medical advice, and it should never be used as a substitute for personalized guidance from a qualified healthcare professional. Always consult with your physician or healthcare provider before making any changes to your nutrition, exercise routine, supplement use, or your overall wellness plan. The opinions and advice shared by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Vegan Gym or its team. While we aim to bring you high-quality, thoughtful conversations, these perspectives are not intended to replace professional medical care. Thanks for tuning in, and remember, you have the power to thrive on plants and live with purpose.